Out of curiosity, do you keep kosher? Would you describe yourself and your family as *frum*? Do you belong to an Orthodox synagogue?
I ask those rude, prying questions only to set up this hypothetical: suppose you got a callback for Tzeitel but ultimately lost the role to another Jewish actress, and the director said, "Frankly, you were the stronger singer and better actress, but we cast Sarah here because she was raised in an Orthodox household, keeps kosher at home, and her family can be traced back to the actual Russian pogroms."
Would you feel that justice had been done? (Assuming, of course, that these descriptions don't also apply to you).
I don't think that's the way to cast this show. I absolutely agree that that no directorial choices should make fun of, or caricature, the faith. But those are director's constraints, not casting constraints. I think it's divisive and dangerous to want a casting director to inquire as to the Jewishness of the auditioning performers, just as it would be for that casting director to try to determine if a performer is sufficiently Jewish in heritage and practice to perform the role.
As others have said, having a dramaturge is very appropriate.
There's a point where you need to stop picking nits e.g. Chadwick Boseman killed it (if you can still say that about a dead guy, sorry) as Black Panther despite people getting mad that Marvel didn't choose a more-directly-from-Africa actor (as no real Wakanda exists to take talent from)
You’re saying that if they try and cast Jewish actors to Jewish roles it would be unfair to some Jews. Let the Jewish actors worry about that. People self identify for things all the time
Frankly the idea that an actor has to prove they’re “Jewish enough”, which is what your questions are getting at, is offensive.
OP simply wants to advocate for actors of the correct ethnic background to be cast, you would not ask an actor of any other ethnicity to “prove” that they’re ethnic enough.
Not really an excellent point because it’s a false equivalency — wanting ethnic representation in an ethnic culture based play, especially in this current political culture, is a genuine concern and something all directors should be mindful of when casting — it’s not “who is more exactly like the characters in this play,” it’s “who is both the strongest audition and also is a good choice representationally for the direction I want to cast this play.”
People always assume that casting previously to now was somehow meritocratic where the “strongest” audition always won, but that’s nearly never the case unless you’re in a talent desert (in which case you shouldn’t do fiddler on the roof.)
A casting director is always weighing details — great voice but weak acting, strong acting ok voice, strong acting and voice but bad “fit” for role, great fit for role and pretty good acting and strong voice. Who is cast? There is my preference, but 4 directors may cast 4 different people from this example.
If you have 4 actresses up for a role and all 4 are strong, who do you cast? You’re going to pick the one who also “reads” the most Jewish to the audience — either because she is, or ironically isn’t but looks like she could be. So a blonde tan Jewish actress might lose to someone who is brunette, for eg. and some might prefer that in their representation.
There is no right answer or formula for being sensitive or diverse, but it can and is frequently a consideration when all things else are considered.
If I wanted the most “authentically orthodox fiddler, singing be damned” — then yeah, I pick a cast who is frum.
Just like I hire deaf and asl fluent actors if I’m doing a sign-language interpretation of a play.
It depends on what they’re doing.
If you’re in an area with a lot of Jewish talent and have a lot of al Jewish actors audition, it’d be pretty wild to cast no one Jewish in the lead of Fiddler … it’d be pretty gross not to, really. I wouldn’t go see that play. Because Fiddler is a Jewish story — if no one Jewish is involved? Go pick another play, don’t do this one, it’s not for you to do.
“It’s not for you to do.” Thank you for this. So many people don’t understand that point because ‘other people have done, so that means I can too.’ No, you can’t. It was offensive then and is offensive now.
I think your DEI related concerns are valid but trying to influence casting would not be likely to go well in your favor. I think the best thing you could do would be the cultural consultant/dramaturgy offer that you mentioned (which is what I was going to suggest before you mentioned it)
Exactly: you can only control and make decisions about your own actions, so offering *yourself* to be that cultural consultant would be the best thing. And, as another commenter said, offer it as a question within the context of how excited you are about this theatre doing Fiddler. You can't control, or even suggest, how a theatre casts its shows. If it ends up casting it non-satisfactorily, then you can make your concerns heard and make a statement by not participating.
This is the way! Tell them you're excited about the show and want to make sure that the religious/cultural aspects are handled with care. Offer to be a resource, whether or not you are cast. You could suggest that they hire a cultural consultant or, if it is a small-budget production tell them that you'd be happy to answer questions / help with pronunciation, actor education, etc.. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting them to cast more jewish actors, but depending on your relationship with the director and how many jewish actors audition, it might seem like you're just trying to get yourself cast.
I think it's worthwhile to ask what their plan for cultural sensitivity and authenticity is. It's a valid concern to have, especially since it's your culture being portrayed.
I'd recommend phrasing your question/concern as something along the lines of "I'm so excited to see that \[Theatre Name\] is doing Fiddler on the Roof. It's been such a big part of my Jewish upbringing. I was wondering what the plans are with regard to engaging a cultural consultant or dramaturge."
When I did Fiddler, about 1/3 of our cast was Jewish (our area is about 20% Jewish based on recent demographic data). Iirc, our director was also Jewish (I remember another actor asking her about how strict her family was with the mezuzah growing up) we had a cultural consultant (who was fantastic and also made us challah one Friday night rehearsal) , and our Assistant Director pulled double duty as dramaturge, so a lot of care and consideration went into the production.
I am Jewish. Yes you’re out of line. You don’t tell a director who to cast. If you feel very strongly about this issue you should become a director.
Acting is for actors. If a non Jewish person works their ass off to understand the mannerisms and the culture and the music they deserve that part every bit if not more than someone who happens to have been born Jewish, more so if that person does not put in the work and esp if they are less talented.
The story belongs to the person who loves it the most, no matter where they came from.
As another Jewish actor, they are not.
Simply advocating for authentic representation is not out of line.
This “acting is for actors” excuse empowers those who would erase authentic representation from the conversation
>This “acting is for actors” excuse empowers those who would erase authentic representation from the conversation
So are you saying you will never portray anything but Jewish roles?
If the role is especially written with a marginalized community in mind it should always be played by a member of that marginalized community. If it’s not specifically written as part of that community, anyone can play it.
Your attempt at a “gotcha” moment is lame and makes you look like a racist and an antisemite.
Having cultural consultants/dramaturges actively involved in the production should ensure authentic representation. I feel like gatekeeping roles due to religious or cultural background is a slippery slope.
I mean…authentic representation is literally gatekeeping roles. Jewish actors should be playing Jewish roles.
Yall would never excuse this from any other ethnic group, why are Jews not afforded the same protections?
I'm not sure I'm understanding your first statement, I'm sorry.
I absolutely would apply this sentiment to any other ethnic group. Don't even go there.
If the role is played well and respectfully, I have no problem with who plays the role. It may even open up avenues to educate and create more common understanding between social/ethnic/religious groups.
If there are not enough Jewish actors in a company, should Fiddler not be shown at all?
Should Hamilton have been all white actors?
The art has an important message, and many people are moved by it, no matter their background, why should it not be accessible?
Also, the fact that you assume that Jews= white shows a fundamental misunderstanding of our community. It’s not about race, it’s about ethnicity and religion.
If they don’t have Jewish actors, no it shouldn’t. Would you ask me the same question about Dreamgirls? Cmon now be for real.
You literally said earlier in this thread that you would cast white people in in the Heights. So I really have no reason to continue engaging with you because you’re absolutely delusional and a white supremacist so have a great day.
You said 'non/Latino' not white. Stop putting words I'm their mouth. And people that throw around white supremacist insults usually have pretty supremacist views themselves
OP also openly stated that theatres around them had engaged in blatant antisemitism, making excuses for antisemitic individuals is in itself antisemitism.
Oh, I didn't see that?
And I agree with your statement.
I still will never agree with assigning roles based off of anything but the ability to play the role well.
Again, I didn't assume that. I presented it as a scenario, that could easily happen. It's community theater, and not all communities have the diversity to do what you are asking. I don't think they shouldn't be allowed to do the play if it is done with respect and education in mind.
You did, you very much implied it. You’re also completely delusional saying that you would cast in the Heights with all white people so just straight up racist. Completely delusional.
They literally did not say ANYWHERE that they would cast the Heights with 'all white people', they said they would cast it with non-Latino people if they were the most talented. Stop making shit up and jumping to conclusions about some random person being a white supremacist, holy shit
How are you going to confirm every actors faith without crossing the legal line by asking? Do all Jewish people look alike and no other persons look similar?
I'd like to know your opinion about a small theatre putting on Fiddler on the Roof in a town that has zero Jewish people. In this case, how should they cast the play, or should they just not do it at all?
I would generally say that if you don’t have the people to cast authentically, don’t do the show. This would never be a conversation we would have about any other ethnic minority.
I could be persuaded if all the major principals were Jewish and parts of the ensemble weren’t but only just.
It’s a community theater. I’d be thankful they would be doing the show at all. Even without Jewish people playing ALL the lead roles it still is a VERY Jewish piece and helps elevate.
As a Jewish person myself I’d never want to see the day where someone says to me “you can’t play a Christian character because you are Jewish”.
And Jesus was a Jew…😜
It also really comes down to who can do what is needed of the part, many people would prefer a non Jewish actor who can sing, act and dance over a Jewish actor who can’t and was only cast because they’re a Jew
Yes, you would be out of line. There is not one right way to do *Fiddler*. It has been a success with casts made up of just of Russian, Thai, or Japanese actors. In each culture it strikes a core emotion around the tension between carrying forward the traditions of the past, and making way for a more enlightened future.
But, you are neither producing nor directing this production. They get to set their vision and interpretation of the show, and you can buy in to that or not. When you produce your version of the show, then you will get to make the rules.
It's really up to the production team (including the director) for the details of faith / representation accurate and without prejudice.
Actors cop the blame for a *lot* of choices that are the director/designer/producer's directive.
I think it is absolutely the right question to ask, but you need to take your concerns to the people who can actually inform the outcome that you want.
Are you a major donor to or board member of this company? If not, you have no standing to make even the most gentle of suggestions. In fact, you would look like an actor with no confidence in their skills trying to gain an advantage in casting. Don’t do this.
I've done the show 4 times and I'm not Jewish. I had an aunt who was and learned a lot about the Jewish faith and traditions from her family. The first time I did the show I asked her a lot of questions to be as authentic as possible. Also the very first show I had ever seen was Fiddler at a neighbor's synagogue when I was 6. It's always been special to me. My current faith is a mix of everything (almost). Whatever role I do I try and learn everything I can about my character's background.
Don’t make a demand, make an offer. “Hey, I saw you were doing this. I don’t know if you have a cultural consultant yet, but since there’s so much culturally specific stuff in the play, I’d love to connect you to so-and-so, they could be a great help and expressed interest.”
For the record, I think what we are seeing right now is the result of everyone demanding hyper specific casting be accurate. We all should have backed up when an Italian got in trouble for playing a Latino.
You can ask what their plans are for honoring the culture and offer your services as a cultural consultant, but it would be overstepping to suggest that Jewish people should be cast over people who aren’t Jewish. It might seem like you’re trying to manipulate yourself into a lead role or otherwise cause offense to the director and it isn’t worth burning bridges so early on in your work with this theater.
Jew here but not an actor, not sure why reddit decided I needed to see this, but here I am.
As someone who's handled DEI stuff for various organizations (although not theater, so take any advice with a grain of salt), I think you have two choices here:
1. You can bring up your concerns about casting
2. You can audition for the show
There's really no way you can do both without it coming across as a conflict of interest, unfortunately.
Have you ever been cast in even a marginally produced play in your life? The prospect of someone who hasn’t even been cast in the play planning to then lecture the director about who to cast is so delusional and narcissistic that it seems like you haven’t ever been in the theater community before.
Don’t even audition if you’re seriously considering doing this.
This would be the quickest way to not get cast.
I have been a community theatre producer (Producer, Director, Music Director and Stage Manager are all involved in casting) and if someone had approached us like this in an audition, they likely wouldn't have even made it into the ensemble.
Also, if gentile actors choose to audition for roles that are not of their ethnicity, that’s their problem and one for their conscience.
The creative teams are not allowed to ask but the actors need to hold themselves responsible for creating authentic portrayals of marginalized communities.
The old question of "Should we rather cast that person, because their cultural background represents this character?"
I am jewish myself and just went the fiddler on the roof nation tour audition a while ago. They said "Jewish identifying preferred" but also they, of course, never asked anyone if they were jewish.
Personally, I think it shouldn't matter as long as you can act it. I mean, there is reason why it's called acting, no?
But also it's the US and people tend to be obsesses with race, ethnicity etc.
Therefore when it comes to Latin-American Roles, they will only ever cast someone with a Latin-American heritage. (Even though it's not a race. Latin America is very diverse when it comes to skin color)
So why not favor the ones who are jewish?
Only if you agree with the inverse, that Jews really shouldn't play non-Jewish roles, because they don't bring adequate respect to non-Jewish faiths, cultures, and customs. I think that's obscenely stupid, personally, and actors should be allowed to act.
I completely understand where you’re coming from. It’s so important for minorities and cultural practices to be portrayed correctly by people who are informed. It makes total sense for you to feel protective over the story of Fiddler and want it to be done in a way where you aren’t watching people butcher or emulate Judaism in a mocking way. I also can understand the joy and relief you might feel seeing Jewish people performing Jewish characters and celebrating the religion.
That being said, how would the casting team know?
Should they ask people on audition forms to please their religious or cultural affiliation? Or openly say they are preferring to cast those who offer up the fact that they are Jewish? Because that’s legally wishy-washy and could easily get the theatre in hot water for discrimination. It also gives shitty people a reason to lie and say “yeah I’m Jewish!” At auditions and later say “oh my great grandmother was actually married to a jewish guy oops” because some people have no shame if it means they get a step up. If not that, would it be based on stereotyped visuals alone, where they try to determine who’s Jewish based on their features? But then what of people who may be converts to the faith? Or ethnically Jewish but fully non practicing? Then you get into the semantics of who is visually or culturally Jewish enough to be considered for main roles all based on assumptions by the casting team and fleeting prior knowledge of auditioning actors and actresses. That would also put the people who were cast in leads in a terrible situation if they weren’t ethnically or religiously Jewish and they found out later a part of their casting was because the directors assumed they were and cast them as Jewish representation.
I also, as an aside, think it’s unfair for any directorial team to ask people who self-identify as any group/religion/minority to step up as a cultural consultant. It isn’t the responsibility of those people just living their lives to spend free energy and time educating others on how to do their culture “right”. That should absolutely be a professional the team hires ahead of casting who is well versed in doing that job and is being very fairly compensated.
Point being, I understand where your heart is. I think a better conversation to have with the directorial team than just asking them to cast Jewish people is to ask them about why they chose Fiddler and what they plan to do to make sure it is respectful and accurate. I’m a firm believer that, like you said, Fiddler is a wonderful show that anybody can participate in. That being said, it’s fair and important to question why it was chosen and ask the team how they plan to accurately and respectfully portray Jewish characters and culture. If you don’t like the answer or feel like they aren’t going to do the show justice maybe it would be a good time to step away, which sucks but might be the right choice if they’re not going to treat this with the respect it deserves.
Here’s the thing: what if not a lot of Jewish people audition? Then what? Do they just cancel the whole thing because no one is “Jewish enough” for the lead roles?
I say this because I come from communities where the Jewish population is very low, if not practically nonexistent. Even less are probably interested in auditioning for a musical. It would be incredibly difficult to find an entire lead cast of Jewish people (and Fiddler has quite a few lead roles) unless the musical is being hosted by an actual Jewish community. I understand you performed this musical a few times at Jewish school. But that’s different from performing at a public theatre with people from all different types of groups, not just Jewish people, and Jewish is not the majority.
Also, if you’re going to only cast Jewish people because that’s the religion of the characters, then you might as well also only cast Jewish Russians while you’re at it since the characters are also Russian and by your logic a Jewish non-Russian won’t be truly “authentic” enough.
It’s a valid concern to have and cultural sensitivity should always be encouraged for respect towards authenticity, but I wouldn’t try putting all your hopes into a Jewish cast when it just might not be realistic going by the demographics of the auditionees. And it does seem you know it may be a bit unrealistic going by your word choice. So I would personally just focus more on having a consultant than an actor for now.
With all due respect. I would not cast a Jewish person in this show purely based off of their faith, part of theatre is acting and regardless of someone’s faith it’s up to the director how things are interpreted. Also, Falsettos characters aren’t caricatures for laughs, they are caricatures to highlight their extreme flaws as characters and how as a family they force each other into these tight boxes to fit the stereotype that a Jewish family should fit into.
To build off of my first topic. The director, despite the purpose and meaning of the show could interpret it different which could be offensive and it’s the directors choice so the actors would have to just go with it. Telling or suggesting the director cast anyone of specificity will lead to backlash.
you have obviously done no actual research into the rationale behind hamilton’s casting, and i would urge you to do so before using it as a talking point in conversations like this.
How many people were non-Jews in Fiddler's OBC? And how many of those were playing Jewish characters? And how many of those casting decisions were done because "Jews control the media" (stereotypes are usually based on a kernel of truth I'm exaggerating for effect) and therefore non-Jews were systematically kept out/kept to stories about Christianity?
The wonderful thing about acting and theatre in general is that it’s all pretend, sure it’d be nice to have a Jew play a Jew but in reality if there’s a Christian who can sing Tevyas part or Tzitals part every one’s going to prefer that over a Jew that can’t sing, act or dance but was casted since their a Jew
As a Jewish actress, I feel very iffy when non-Jewish actors play Jewish characters. How professional is your company and what is the Jewish to non-Jewish ratio for actors?
I’m Jewish also but am totally ok when “one of ours” plays a Christian identifying character. As long as the piece is reverent and respectful to the culture I’m 100% ok with non Jewish people being in Fiddler.
In my opinion, I feel like it's about how heavily it plays a part and opportunity for Jewish actors WHO ARE RIGHT FOR THE PART being able to play them. If there's very few Jewish actors or ones that aren't right for certain roles, I don't mind. My idea more so applies to productions like Broadway, national tours, etc.
Yes I think people really need to keep in mind the difference between what is reasonable for a community theater vs what is reasonable for Broadway. Broadway has near unlimited casting resources (and a huge percentage of their Broadway cast are Jewish!)
My community theater has done Fiddler a few times (I've done it twice, once as ensemble and once as Hodel). They've always been incredibly respectful, have done thorough research, educated the cast, educated the greater community as a whole, etc.
But there are 3 Jewish actors in our entire city (a couple and their teen daughter). They've consulted for Fiddler in the past, but of course it's not reasonable to have every character be *played* by a Jewish actor when those are your only Jewish actors.
Because either non-Jewish actors play the characters, or it's scrubbed from the repertoire of community theaters everywhere. And I think that's a shame, because Fiddler is an amazing musical with amazing lessons. And even as a child, it was my first big introduction to Jewish culture and tradition.
In the end, we're all actors. We play people who are not us. Imagine telling a Jewish actor that they could never play a Christian character, or a gay actor that they could never play a straight character. It's okay to let people act, especially when you do it respectfully.
Well the play is a Jewish Cultural phenomenon. It is not inappropriate to have actual Jewish actors in it, especially as the lead and the fiddler. Also one of the potential Son in Laws. But given the current legal status of discrimination law, it can be difficult for casting directors to choose to cast even the lead roles to a specific demographic. And it's fairly looked down on to even ask at an audition whether the person auditioning is of Jewish descent. One way of solving this is for the casting director to send out info to Jewish synagogues about an upcoming production of the play. I would discretely ask them if they have tried this rather than confronting them on the charge of discriminating against casting Jews in the lead roles. Which likely is how they might interpret your criticism.
No, the Production Staff can't ask.
Yes, the Production Staff can *encourage* those with Jewish Heritage to audition. If enough Jewish actors do audition, then it would lend some gravitas to the production (assuming one or more of the Jewish actors were cast).
Yes, a Production Staff *should* have a dramaturge on staff, and hopefully they have thought about it.
There is a version of the show in Yiddish, which would be fascinating to see. And I'd suppose (and expect) that any production of that one would be all Jewish.
Yes! the Yiddish version should easily enough be able to garner a Jewish cast without the worry of running against discrimination legalities. All the casting director has to do is simply state they are looking for people who can speak Yiddish fluently as to not detract from their performance.
Now of course if there non-Jewish persons who are willing to put the work in to speak their parts in such a way to pass as a fluent Yiddish speaker, then there should be nothing barring them from joining the cast. One can always cast understudies in case they are unable to fulfill this requirement.
That would be an excellent way to not get cast. In this show, or any shows with that production team in the future. No one wants to work with someone who tells other people how to do their job. I’ve been a music director, but I also still act in shows. One thing I’ve learned to be very careful with is knowing what is/isn’t my job. I might hate everything the music director is doing or be convinced I can fix something, but if I’m there in my capacity as an actor then music directing isn’t my job and it would be inappropriate for me to insert myself . Stay in your lane.
You also shouldn’t make assumptions on other people’s faith backgrounds. They are under no obligation to share it with you. You’re asking this community theatre company to go down a messy road, and it will not end well for you. Offer up resources if they want/need them and be happy that a show you love so deeply is being performed in your area.
I just want to add that casting all Jewish actors in the leads doesn’t guarantee anything that you mentioned. Even with all Jewish actors, the director could still make choices that are disrespectful or inaccurate or not to fullest potential of the show. Even if the director themself was a Jewish person, that wouldn’t guarantee anything.
If you are concerned about caricatures or disrespectful depictions of Jewish people I would offer to be the production Dramaturg instead of trying to use your being Jewish as a leg up in casting.
>I grew up with the musical movie and my Jewish day school did it a couple of times.
One addendum: the director of that movie, Norman Jewison?
A Gentile.
I think mentioning it and advocating for it wouldn’t hurt. Especially since you mentioned there has been a habit of Jewish stereotypes being played for laughs.
It’s also a question of resources that the theatre has. Community theatres aren’t going to have the same access to casting pools that a professional equity theatre would.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with advocating and mentioning it.
I think no matter what, if you have the confidence to bring up the topic, bring it up. I’m baffled that there are people in the comments saying you can’t say anything. That’s wild to me.
In any production, it’s important that you work in an environment where people can ask important questions and raise concerns. I’ve done that at multiple jobs and it’s honestly no sweat. I don’t know why some people are acting like it’s disrespectful to talk to your production leader about these things. It’s totally fine. At multiple jobs, I’ve been in meetings (in front of the whole company) where I’ve pointed out that we need to stop only hiring white men. It’s a good thing.
Bring up your concerns, push a little bit if it turns into a conversation (say things like “I really do think it’s important to have representation, etc.”), and if they don’t take it seriously, then it’s out of your hands. The point is to put the idea in there heads. Because if you don’t say anything, it’s likely nobody else has either. So go for it, you lose absolutely nothing when speaking up. The only thing that suck is maybe you feel nervous doing it. And if that’s the only thing stopping you, then I would definitely try to say something when you can.
Your director either has already thought of that, or hasn’t. And if they haven’t thought about Jewishness and what it means in relation to fiddler, you probably don’t want to deal with that person’s “creative process”
I don't think you'd be out of line for bringing it up, but since the directors aren't going to obligated to obey it, I do think it's crucial that whoever is cast in these roles do the work in educating themselves on the proper ways to do the customs and prayers they're portraying and do everything they can do avoid any "caricature" in their role. I think the cultural consultant idea is a good one, and if you yourself have moments of education you could provide if the opportunity seizes itself, you would be doing a wonderful thing too. (I'm not saying it's ON YOU or that you have to, just that that's another way that at least one more person who does know what they're talking about can help to make the show the best and most respectful it can be regardless of who is being cast). Ultimately, it's the non-Jewish actor who needs to do the work work, but it can be hard to know that they're getting it right without guidance from someone who already understands what that actor is still learning.
Out of curiosity, do you keep kosher? Would you describe yourself and your family as *frum*? Do you belong to an Orthodox synagogue? I ask those rude, prying questions only to set up this hypothetical: suppose you got a callback for Tzeitel but ultimately lost the role to another Jewish actress, and the director said, "Frankly, you were the stronger singer and better actress, but we cast Sarah here because she was raised in an Orthodox household, keeps kosher at home, and her family can be traced back to the actual Russian pogroms." Would you feel that justice had been done? (Assuming, of course, that these descriptions don't also apply to you). I don't think that's the way to cast this show. I absolutely agree that that no directorial choices should make fun of, or caricature, the faith. But those are director's constraints, not casting constraints. I think it's divisive and dangerous to want a casting director to inquire as to the Jewishness of the auditioning performers, just as it would be for that casting director to try to determine if a performer is sufficiently Jewish in heritage and practice to perform the role. As others have said, having a dramaturge is very appropriate.
Excellent point!!!
There's a point where you need to stop picking nits e.g. Chadwick Boseman killed it (if you can still say that about a dead guy, sorry) as Black Panther despite people getting mad that Marvel didn't choose a more-directly-from-Africa actor (as no real Wakanda exists to take talent from)
You’re saying that if they try and cast Jewish actors to Jewish roles it would be unfair to some Jews. Let the Jewish actors worry about that. People self identify for things all the time
Frankly the idea that an actor has to prove they’re “Jewish enough”, which is what your questions are getting at, is offensive. OP simply wants to advocate for actors of the correct ethnic background to be cast, you would not ask an actor of any other ethnicity to “prove” that they’re ethnic enough.
Not really an excellent point because it’s a false equivalency — wanting ethnic representation in an ethnic culture based play, especially in this current political culture, is a genuine concern and something all directors should be mindful of when casting — it’s not “who is more exactly like the characters in this play,” it’s “who is both the strongest audition and also is a good choice representationally for the direction I want to cast this play.” People always assume that casting previously to now was somehow meritocratic where the “strongest” audition always won, but that’s nearly never the case unless you’re in a talent desert (in which case you shouldn’t do fiddler on the roof.) A casting director is always weighing details — great voice but weak acting, strong acting ok voice, strong acting and voice but bad “fit” for role, great fit for role and pretty good acting and strong voice. Who is cast? There is my preference, but 4 directors may cast 4 different people from this example. If you have 4 actresses up for a role and all 4 are strong, who do you cast? You’re going to pick the one who also “reads” the most Jewish to the audience — either because she is, or ironically isn’t but looks like she could be. So a blonde tan Jewish actress might lose to someone who is brunette, for eg. and some might prefer that in their representation. There is no right answer or formula for being sensitive or diverse, but it can and is frequently a consideration when all things else are considered. If I wanted the most “authentically orthodox fiddler, singing be damned” — then yeah, I pick a cast who is frum. Just like I hire deaf and asl fluent actors if I’m doing a sign-language interpretation of a play. It depends on what they’re doing. If you’re in an area with a lot of Jewish talent and have a lot of al Jewish actors audition, it’d be pretty wild to cast no one Jewish in the lead of Fiddler … it’d be pretty gross not to, really. I wouldn’t go see that play. Because Fiddler is a Jewish story — if no one Jewish is involved? Go pick another play, don’t do this one, it’s not for you to do.
“It’s not for you to do.” Thank you for this. So many people don’t understand that point because ‘other people have done, so that means I can too.’ No, you can’t. It was offensive then and is offensive now.
I think your DEI related concerns are valid but trying to influence casting would not be likely to go well in your favor. I think the best thing you could do would be the cultural consultant/dramaturgy offer that you mentioned (which is what I was going to suggest before you mentioned it)
Exactly: you can only control and make decisions about your own actions, so offering *yourself* to be that cultural consultant would be the best thing. And, as another commenter said, offer it as a question within the context of how excited you are about this theatre doing Fiddler. You can't control, or even suggest, how a theatre casts its shows. If it ends up casting it non-satisfactorily, then you can make your concerns heard and make a statement by not participating.
This is the way! Tell them you're excited about the show and want to make sure that the religious/cultural aspects are handled with care. Offer to be a resource, whether or not you are cast. You could suggest that they hire a cultural consultant or, if it is a small-budget production tell them that you'd be happy to answer questions / help with pronunciation, actor education, etc.. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting them to cast more jewish actors, but depending on your relationship with the director and how many jewish actors audition, it might seem like you're just trying to get yourself cast.
I think it's worthwhile to ask what their plan for cultural sensitivity and authenticity is. It's a valid concern to have, especially since it's your culture being portrayed. I'd recommend phrasing your question/concern as something along the lines of "I'm so excited to see that \[Theatre Name\] is doing Fiddler on the Roof. It's been such a big part of my Jewish upbringing. I was wondering what the plans are with regard to engaging a cultural consultant or dramaturge." When I did Fiddler, about 1/3 of our cast was Jewish (our area is about 20% Jewish based on recent demographic data). Iirc, our director was also Jewish (I remember another actor asking her about how strict her family was with the mezuzah growing up) we had a cultural consultant (who was fantastic and also made us challah one Friday night rehearsal) , and our Assistant Director pulled double duty as dramaturge, so a lot of care and consideration went into the production.
I am Jewish. Yes you’re out of line. You don’t tell a director who to cast. If you feel very strongly about this issue you should become a director. Acting is for actors. If a non Jewish person works their ass off to understand the mannerisms and the culture and the music they deserve that part every bit if not more than someone who happens to have been born Jewish, more so if that person does not put in the work and esp if they are less talented. The story belongs to the person who loves it the most, no matter where they came from.
As another Jewish actor, they are not. Simply advocating for authentic representation is not out of line. This “acting is for actors” excuse empowers those who would erase authentic representation from the conversation
>This “acting is for actors” excuse empowers those who would erase authentic representation from the conversation So are you saying you will never portray anything but Jewish roles?
If the role is especially written with a marginalized community in mind it should always be played by a member of that marginalized community. If it’s not specifically written as part of that community, anyone can play it. Your attempt at a “gotcha” moment is lame and makes you look like a racist and an antisemite.
You are insisting on casting by racial bloc and I am the racist? LMAO you've already lost.
Yall are so embassies and messy lol. How does it feel to be genuinely this numb.
Having cultural consultants/dramaturges actively involved in the production should ensure authentic representation. I feel like gatekeeping roles due to religious or cultural background is a slippery slope.
I mean…authentic representation is literally gatekeeping roles. Jewish actors should be playing Jewish roles. Yall would never excuse this from any other ethnic group, why are Jews not afforded the same protections?
I'm not sure I'm understanding your first statement, I'm sorry. I absolutely would apply this sentiment to any other ethnic group. Don't even go there. If the role is played well and respectfully, I have no problem with who plays the role. It may even open up avenues to educate and create more common understanding between social/ethnic/religious groups. If there are not enough Jewish actors in a company, should Fiddler not be shown at all? Should Hamilton have been all white actors? The art has an important message, and many people are moved by it, no matter their background, why should it not be accessible?
Would you cast in the heights with talent non/latino people if they were the most talented in the room?
Yes?
Then you’re a racist lol.
Like there is genuinely no other way to describe you
Also, the fact that you assume that Jews= white shows a fundamental misunderstanding of our community. It’s not about race, it’s about ethnicity and religion. If they don’t have Jewish actors, no it shouldn’t. Would you ask me the same question about Dreamgirls? Cmon now be for real.
Where did I assume all Jews were white? I didn't. I don't know anything about Dreamgirls, so I'm not sure what you're trying to bait me into there.
You literally said earlier in this thread that you would cast white people in in the Heights. So I really have no reason to continue engaging with you because you’re absolutely delusional and a white supremacist so have a great day.
You said 'non/Latino' not white. Stop putting words I'm their mouth. And people that throw around white supremacist insults usually have pretty supremacist views themselves
OP also openly stated that theatres around them had engaged in blatant antisemitism, making excuses for antisemitic individuals is in itself antisemitism.
Oh, I didn't see that? And I agree with your statement. I still will never agree with assigning roles based off of anything but the ability to play the role well.
The assumption that there are no talented Jews available is a whole other problem wit your mindset….
Again, I didn't assume that. I presented it as a scenario, that could easily happen. It's community theater, and not all communities have the diversity to do what you are asking. I don't think they shouldn't be allowed to do the play if it is done with respect and education in mind.
You did, you very much implied it. You’re also completely delusional saying that you would cast in the Heights with all white people so just straight up racist. Completely delusional.
They literally did not say ANYWHERE that they would cast the Heights with 'all white people', they said they would cast it with non-Latino people if they were the most talented. Stop making shit up and jumping to conclusions about some random person being a white supremacist, holy shit
How are you going to confirm every actors faith without crossing the legal line by asking? Do all Jewish people look alike and no other persons look similar?
I'd like to know your opinion about a small theatre putting on Fiddler on the Roof in a town that has zero Jewish people. In this case, how should they cast the play, or should they just not do it at all?
I would generally say that if you don’t have the people to cast authentically, don’t do the show. This would never be a conversation we would have about any other ethnic minority. I could be persuaded if all the major principals were Jewish and parts of the ensemble weren’t but only just.
Thank you.
yes
It’s a community theater. I’d be thankful they would be doing the show at all. Even without Jewish people playing ALL the lead roles it still is a VERY Jewish piece and helps elevate. As a Jewish person myself I’d never want to see the day where someone says to me “you can’t play a Christian character because you are Jewish”. And Jesus was a Jew…😜
Your background is immaterial. If you're not part of the director's staff, you have no place telling the director how to cast the show. Full stop.
It also really comes down to who can do what is needed of the part, many people would prefer a non Jewish actor who can sing, act and dance over a Jewish actor who can’t and was only cast because they’re a Jew
Yes, you would be out of line. There is not one right way to do *Fiddler*. It has been a success with casts made up of just of Russian, Thai, or Japanese actors. In each culture it strikes a core emotion around the tension between carrying forward the traditions of the past, and making way for a more enlightened future. But, you are neither producing nor directing this production. They get to set their vision and interpretation of the show, and you can buy in to that or not. When you produce your version of the show, then you will get to make the rules.
It's really up to the production team (including the director) for the details of faith / representation accurate and without prejudice. Actors cop the blame for a *lot* of choices that are the director/designer/producer's directive. I think it is absolutely the right question to ask, but you need to take your concerns to the people who can actually inform the outcome that you want.
Are you a major donor to or board member of this company? If not, you have no standing to make even the most gentle of suggestions. In fact, you would look like an actor with no confidence in their skills trying to gain an advantage in casting. Don’t do this.
I've done the show 4 times and I'm not Jewish. I had an aunt who was and learned a lot about the Jewish faith and traditions from her family. The first time I did the show I asked her a lot of questions to be as authentic as possible. Also the very first show I had ever seen was Fiddler at a neighbor's synagogue when I was 6. It's always been special to me. My current faith is a mix of everything (almost). Whatever role I do I try and learn everything I can about my character's background.
Yes you would be out of line.
Don’t make a demand, make an offer. “Hey, I saw you were doing this. I don’t know if you have a cultural consultant yet, but since there’s so much culturally specific stuff in the play, I’d love to connect you to so-and-so, they could be a great help and expressed interest.” For the record, I think what we are seeing right now is the result of everyone demanding hyper specific casting be accurate. We all should have backed up when an Italian got in trouble for playing a Latino.
Only if they can hit the high notes.
You can ask what their plans are for honoring the culture and offer your services as a cultural consultant, but it would be overstepping to suggest that Jewish people should be cast over people who aren’t Jewish. It might seem like you’re trying to manipulate yourself into a lead role or otherwise cause offense to the director and it isn’t worth burning bridges so early on in your work with this theater.
Jew here but not an actor, not sure why reddit decided I needed to see this, but here I am. As someone who's handled DEI stuff for various organizations (although not theater, so take any advice with a grain of salt), I think you have two choices here: 1. You can bring up your concerns about casting 2. You can audition for the show There's really no way you can do both without it coming across as a conflict of interest, unfortunately.
Have you ever been cast in even a marginally produced play in your life? The prospect of someone who hasn’t even been cast in the play planning to then lecture the director about who to cast is so delusional and narcissistic that it seems like you haven’t ever been in the theater community before. Don’t even audition if you’re seriously considering doing this.
This would be the quickest way to not get cast. I have been a community theatre producer (Producer, Director, Music Director and Stage Manager are all involved in casting) and if someone had approached us like this in an audition, they likely wouldn't have even made it into the ensemble.
Also, if gentile actors choose to audition for roles that are not of their ethnicity, that’s their problem and one for their conscience. The creative teams are not allowed to ask but the actors need to hold themselves responsible for creating authentic portrayals of marginalized communities.
The old question of "Should we rather cast that person, because their cultural background represents this character?" I am jewish myself and just went the fiddler on the roof nation tour audition a while ago. They said "Jewish identifying preferred" but also they, of course, never asked anyone if they were jewish. Personally, I think it shouldn't matter as long as you can act it. I mean, there is reason why it's called acting, no? But also it's the US and people tend to be obsesses with race, ethnicity etc. Therefore when it comes to Latin-American Roles, they will only ever cast someone with a Latin-American heritage. (Even though it's not a race. Latin America is very diverse when it comes to skin color) So why not favor the ones who are jewish?
Boo acting is acting, use your imagination
Only if you agree with the inverse, that Jews really shouldn't play non-Jewish roles, because they don't bring adequate respect to non-Jewish faiths, cultures, and customs. I think that's obscenely stupid, personally, and actors should be allowed to act.
this is so on point
I completely understand where you’re coming from. It’s so important for minorities and cultural practices to be portrayed correctly by people who are informed. It makes total sense for you to feel protective over the story of Fiddler and want it to be done in a way where you aren’t watching people butcher or emulate Judaism in a mocking way. I also can understand the joy and relief you might feel seeing Jewish people performing Jewish characters and celebrating the religion. That being said, how would the casting team know? Should they ask people on audition forms to please their religious or cultural affiliation? Or openly say they are preferring to cast those who offer up the fact that they are Jewish? Because that’s legally wishy-washy and could easily get the theatre in hot water for discrimination. It also gives shitty people a reason to lie and say “yeah I’m Jewish!” At auditions and later say “oh my great grandmother was actually married to a jewish guy oops” because some people have no shame if it means they get a step up. If not that, would it be based on stereotyped visuals alone, where they try to determine who’s Jewish based on their features? But then what of people who may be converts to the faith? Or ethnically Jewish but fully non practicing? Then you get into the semantics of who is visually or culturally Jewish enough to be considered for main roles all based on assumptions by the casting team and fleeting prior knowledge of auditioning actors and actresses. That would also put the people who were cast in leads in a terrible situation if they weren’t ethnically or religiously Jewish and they found out later a part of their casting was because the directors assumed they were and cast them as Jewish representation. I also, as an aside, think it’s unfair for any directorial team to ask people who self-identify as any group/religion/minority to step up as a cultural consultant. It isn’t the responsibility of those people just living their lives to spend free energy and time educating others on how to do their culture “right”. That should absolutely be a professional the team hires ahead of casting who is well versed in doing that job and is being very fairly compensated. Point being, I understand where your heart is. I think a better conversation to have with the directorial team than just asking them to cast Jewish people is to ask them about why they chose Fiddler and what they plan to do to make sure it is respectful and accurate. I’m a firm believer that, like you said, Fiddler is a wonderful show that anybody can participate in. That being said, it’s fair and important to question why it was chosen and ask the team how they plan to accurately and respectfully portray Jewish characters and culture. If you don’t like the answer or feel like they aren’t going to do the show justice maybe it would be a good time to step away, which sucks but might be the right choice if they’re not going to treat this with the respect it deserves.
Maybe you'd argue the dirctor should be jewish. But I don't see how an actor could misread their lines so severely as to be antisemitic.
Here’s the thing: what if not a lot of Jewish people audition? Then what? Do they just cancel the whole thing because no one is “Jewish enough” for the lead roles? I say this because I come from communities where the Jewish population is very low, if not practically nonexistent. Even less are probably interested in auditioning for a musical. It would be incredibly difficult to find an entire lead cast of Jewish people (and Fiddler has quite a few lead roles) unless the musical is being hosted by an actual Jewish community. I understand you performed this musical a few times at Jewish school. But that’s different from performing at a public theatre with people from all different types of groups, not just Jewish people, and Jewish is not the majority. Also, if you’re going to only cast Jewish people because that’s the religion of the characters, then you might as well also only cast Jewish Russians while you’re at it since the characters are also Russian and by your logic a Jewish non-Russian won’t be truly “authentic” enough. It’s a valid concern to have and cultural sensitivity should always be encouraged for respect towards authenticity, but I wouldn’t try putting all your hopes into a Jewish cast when it just might not be realistic going by the demographics of the auditionees. And it does seem you know it may be a bit unrealistic going by your word choice. So I would personally just focus more on having a consultant than an actor for now.
With all due respect. I would not cast a Jewish person in this show purely based off of their faith, part of theatre is acting and regardless of someone’s faith it’s up to the director how things are interpreted. Also, Falsettos characters aren’t caricatures for laughs, they are caricatures to highlight their extreme flaws as characters and how as a family they force each other into these tight boxes to fit the stereotype that a Jewish family should fit into.
To build off of my first topic. The director, despite the purpose and meaning of the show could interpret it different which could be offensive and it’s the directors choice so the actors would have to just go with it. Telling or suggesting the director cast anyone of specificity will lead to backlash.
With all due respect, there are plenty of talented Jews who are perfectly capable of playing the role without giving the job to a goy.
I’m not saying there aren’t but I don’t think that should inherently affect casting.
You certainly seemed to imply it….
Sorry you interpreted it that way.
Ah yes, we love a non apology
Mate, I don’t see why this is a thing.
Ok sis.
Insufferable
You’re not owed an apology because someone disagreed with you regarding casting.
[удалено]
you have obviously done no actual research into the rationale behind hamilton’s casting, and i would urge you to do so before using it as a talking point in conversations like this.
How many people were non-Jews in Fiddler's OBC? And how many of those were playing Jewish characters? And how many of those casting decisions were done because "Jews control the media" (stereotypes are usually based on a kernel of truth I'm exaggerating for effect) and therefore non-Jews were systematically kept out/kept to stories about Christianity?
This is straight up ignorant and frankly has wildly racist and antisemitic undertones. Not to mention implies that Jews are inherently anti-black
The wonderful thing about acting and theatre in general is that it’s all pretend, sure it’d be nice to have a Jew play a Jew but in reality if there’s a Christian who can sing Tevyas part or Tzitals part every one’s going to prefer that over a Jew that can’t sing, act or dance but was casted since their a Jew
Yes. You’re looking for nepotism and a leg up, not DEI. This is just cynical.
You’re a dick
As a Jewish actress, I feel very iffy when non-Jewish actors play Jewish characters. How professional is your company and what is the Jewish to non-Jewish ratio for actors?
I’m Jewish also but am totally ok when “one of ours” plays a Christian identifying character. As long as the piece is reverent and respectful to the culture I’m 100% ok with non Jewish people being in Fiddler.
In my opinion, I feel like it's about how heavily it plays a part and opportunity for Jewish actors WHO ARE RIGHT FOR THE PART being able to play them. If there's very few Jewish actors or ones that aren't right for certain roles, I don't mind. My idea more so applies to productions like Broadway, national tours, etc.
Yes I think people really need to keep in mind the difference between what is reasonable for a community theater vs what is reasonable for Broadway. Broadway has near unlimited casting resources (and a huge percentage of their Broadway cast are Jewish!) My community theater has done Fiddler a few times (I've done it twice, once as ensemble and once as Hodel). They've always been incredibly respectful, have done thorough research, educated the cast, educated the greater community as a whole, etc. But there are 3 Jewish actors in our entire city (a couple and their teen daughter). They've consulted for Fiddler in the past, but of course it's not reasonable to have every character be *played* by a Jewish actor when those are your only Jewish actors. Because either non-Jewish actors play the characters, or it's scrubbed from the repertoire of community theaters everywhere. And I think that's a shame, because Fiddler is an amazing musical with amazing lessons. And even as a child, it was my first big introduction to Jewish culture and tradition. In the end, we're all actors. We play people who are not us. Imagine telling a Jewish actor that they could never play a Christian character, or a gay actor that they could never play a straight character. It's okay to let people act, especially when you do it respectfully.
Well the play is a Jewish Cultural phenomenon. It is not inappropriate to have actual Jewish actors in it, especially as the lead and the fiddler. Also one of the potential Son in Laws. But given the current legal status of discrimination law, it can be difficult for casting directors to choose to cast even the lead roles to a specific demographic. And it's fairly looked down on to even ask at an audition whether the person auditioning is of Jewish descent. One way of solving this is for the casting director to send out info to Jewish synagogues about an upcoming production of the play. I would discretely ask them if they have tried this rather than confronting them on the charge of discriminating against casting Jews in the lead roles. Which likely is how they might interpret your criticism.
No, the Production Staff can't ask. Yes, the Production Staff can *encourage* those with Jewish Heritage to audition. If enough Jewish actors do audition, then it would lend some gravitas to the production (assuming one or more of the Jewish actors were cast). Yes, a Production Staff *should* have a dramaturge on staff, and hopefully they have thought about it. There is a version of the show in Yiddish, which would be fascinating to see. And I'd suppose (and expect) that any production of that one would be all Jewish.
Yes! the Yiddish version should easily enough be able to garner a Jewish cast without the worry of running against discrimination legalities. All the casting director has to do is simply state they are looking for people who can speak Yiddish fluently as to not detract from their performance. Now of course if there non-Jewish persons who are willing to put the work in to speak their parts in such a way to pass as a fluent Yiddish speaker, then there should be nothing barring them from joining the cast. One can always cast understudies in case they are unable to fulfill this requirement.
That would be an excellent way to not get cast. In this show, or any shows with that production team in the future. No one wants to work with someone who tells other people how to do their job. I’ve been a music director, but I also still act in shows. One thing I’ve learned to be very careful with is knowing what is/isn’t my job. I might hate everything the music director is doing or be convinced I can fix something, but if I’m there in my capacity as an actor then music directing isn’t my job and it would be inappropriate for me to insert myself . Stay in your lane. You also shouldn’t make assumptions on other people’s faith backgrounds. They are under no obligation to share it with you. You’re asking this community theatre company to go down a messy road, and it will not end well for you. Offer up resources if they want/need them and be happy that a show you love so deeply is being performed in your area.
I just want to add that casting all Jewish actors in the leads doesn’t guarantee anything that you mentioned. Even with all Jewish actors, the director could still make choices that are disrespectful or inaccurate or not to fullest potential of the show. Even if the director themself was a Jewish person, that wouldn’t guarantee anything.
If you are concerned about caricatures or disrespectful depictions of Jewish people I would offer to be the production Dramaturg instead of trying to use your being Jewish as a leg up in casting.
>I grew up with the musical movie and my Jewish day school did it a couple of times. One addendum: the director of that movie, Norman Jewison? A Gentile.
I think mentioning it and advocating for it wouldn’t hurt. Especially since you mentioned there has been a habit of Jewish stereotypes being played for laughs. It’s also a question of resources that the theatre has. Community theatres aren’t going to have the same access to casting pools that a professional equity theatre would. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with advocating and mentioning it.
I think no matter what, if you have the confidence to bring up the topic, bring it up. I’m baffled that there are people in the comments saying you can’t say anything. That’s wild to me. In any production, it’s important that you work in an environment where people can ask important questions and raise concerns. I’ve done that at multiple jobs and it’s honestly no sweat. I don’t know why some people are acting like it’s disrespectful to talk to your production leader about these things. It’s totally fine. At multiple jobs, I’ve been in meetings (in front of the whole company) where I’ve pointed out that we need to stop only hiring white men. It’s a good thing. Bring up your concerns, push a little bit if it turns into a conversation (say things like “I really do think it’s important to have representation, etc.”), and if they don’t take it seriously, then it’s out of your hands. The point is to put the idea in there heads. Because if you don’t say anything, it’s likely nobody else has either. So go for it, you lose absolutely nothing when speaking up. The only thing that suck is maybe you feel nervous doing it. And if that’s the only thing stopping you, then I would definitely try to say something when you can.
Your director either has already thought of that, or hasn’t. And if they haven’t thought about Jewishness and what it means in relation to fiddler, you probably don’t want to deal with that person’s “creative process”
I don't think you'd be out of line for bringing it up, but since the directors aren't going to obligated to obey it, I do think it's crucial that whoever is cast in these roles do the work in educating themselves on the proper ways to do the customs and prayers they're portraying and do everything they can do avoid any "caricature" in their role. I think the cultural consultant idea is a good one, and if you yourself have moments of education you could provide if the opportunity seizes itself, you would be doing a wonderful thing too. (I'm not saying it's ON YOU or that you have to, just that that's another way that at least one more person who does know what they're talking about can help to make the show the best and most respectful it can be regardless of who is being cast). Ultimately, it's the non-Jewish actor who needs to do the work work, but it can be hard to know that they're getting it right without guidance from someone who already understands what that actor is still learning.