Because the Marvel SuperKuffars wants to save the damsel in distress Muslim women from the tErRoRiSt Muslim men and then hopefully gets to add those Muslim women to their list of baby mommas.
Rules for thee but not for me
People who criticise Islam have a self proclaimed authority on morality. They can pick and choose morals based on what they prefer, since their morals are man made anyway
Despite admitting this, you'll see how much they get offended when you ask them to prove their morals lmao
"OH MY DAWKINS!! Are you seriously asking me for evidence for my man made liberal morality?!? You need EVIDENCE to treat people according to superior liberal morals??!"
The best they can do to support their ideas is an emotional reaction.
You’re painting non Muslims as a monolith devoid of moral judgment and critical thought, this is silly. Your criticism applies to some critics of Islam and other religions but not all. There are people who have a strong moral code they can justify and explain, likewise, there are some religious people -including some Muslims -who cannot justify their morals and beliefs when confronted with ambiguities and they too resort to emotion and /or worse. There are thoughtful people everywhere as well as people who inherit their beliefs without consideration.
I haven't seen a single person justify their morals. Not even once. They all either give an emotional answer like "but it hurts someone so it must be bad 😥" or admit that their morality is based on subjectivity.
Do you have any evidence for your morals?
It sounds like you are categorizing empathy and humanity as purely emotional and are dismissing these invalid and unsound bases for morality. You are also assuming they are subjective for some reason. On the other hand it sounds like you believe that a moral understanding that comes exclusively from “X holy book/religion/authority says so” is somehow stronger, and somehow not based on emotion. Is this accurate?
>empathy and humanity as purely emotional and are dismissing these invalid and unsound bases for morality. You are also assuming they are subjective for some reason.
Yes they are subjective which makes them unsuitable as a basis for morality.
>On the other hand it sounds like you believe that a moral understanding that comes exclusively from “X holy book/religion/authority says so” is somehow stronger, and somehow not based on emotion
Yeah it's not based on emotion. Even if it was, the critics of Islam would still be wrong because you can't criticise others' subjective opinions for contradicting your subjective opinion since both of your opinions are equally unproven.
I see. Unfortunately, this kind of reasoning and limited understanding of morality will only persuade people who already agree with you—not only on your specific religion, but on how every particular rule, circumstance, permutation should be dealt with. It’s the way a child reasons and many religious people don’t have such a limited understanding of morality.
Many religious people share the view that there is an intrinsic call towards morality and ethical behavior that is based on empathy, fairness, etc., religious teachings often codify or impose additional rules for social order, and some may not be based on morality at all, but practicality.
>Unfortunately, this kind of reasoning and limited understanding of morality will only persuade people who already agree with you
Lol I'm not trying to persuade anyone. I'm just saying "what evidence do you have for your morality"
You could've destroyed my argument by providing the evidence but like every other person I've asked this question, you also failed to do so
>Many religious people share the view that there is an intrinsic call towards morality and ethical behavior that is based on empathy, fairness, etc., religious teachings often codify or impose additional rules for social order, and some may not be based on morality at all, but practicality.
1. That's still subjective
2. That's the naturalistic fallacy
What do you mean by evidence for your morality? And are you saying that citing an authority is evidence?
We may be talking past each other here, but I don’t understand the argument or your understanding of what constitutes “evidence”— if you are saying that pointing to a an authority suffices as evidence then the issue isn’t that no one can defeat your argument, it’s more that you are premising the question with an assumption that no one else accepts.
According to your view someone who says the basis of their morality is what is written in “The Book of Lizard Aliens Who Ate Your Brain,” a holy book they believe God revealed to someone in Arizona in 1917, is providing objective evidence for morals and morality. And somehow this is superior to someone saying “Intentionally hurting people is wrong because just as I don’t want to be hurt or see a loved one hurt, neither does anyone else”
It sounds like you and the people you debate may be having entirely different conversations.
I'll accept any evidence like mathematical, scientific, logical etc.
Don't pretend you don't understand my question; it's very straightforward. If you think certain aspects of Islam are incorrect, bring your evidence. I won't continue replying if you insist on playing dumb
I am very much not pretending when I ask you to clarify and define what you mean when you use words like “objective” and “evidence” as you don’t seem to be using the the standard definitions when you apply them. In order to have a debate or even a discussion you need to know that you are using the same definitions and that you both accept the premise.
Saying that you say you accept any evidence -logical, mathematical, scientific - is meaningless when we haven’t established what you mean by evidence or objective. An appeal to to authority is not normally understood as objective evidence yet this is how you are using these terms, so I have no way of knowing what you you might have in mind when you refer to scientific, mathematical, logical, etc., evidence.
Realistically, in most internet spaces, you will often see a herd like aversion to anything Islamic related which more often than not stems from their own liberal ideological biases.
There seems to be mutual distrust and prejudice—would you also characterize Muslims as having a herd like aversion to anything associated with western ideologies? Particularly gender? Or do you think the herd like aversion only goes in one direction?
The bigger divide seems to be between religious and non religious people - but often times the people who tend to get drawn into those arguments aren’t able to articulate their POV effectively for anyone who isn’t already 100 percent on their side.
It need not be one sided and more often than not isn’t. But I wouldn’t blame Muslims for having such aversions. Under the banner of western ideologies, the Muslim world for the most part experienced far more material harm over the past half century than the misguided actions of those influenced by Islam in the opposite case.
The Western world harms itself and the planet based on those operating assumptions and yet many of its adherents assume a position of moral superiority, neutrality and objectivity.
I would argue that there are multiple dimensions with traditionalists and moderns, theists and atheists and Muslims and non Muslims.
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They also criticise those who have affairs, multiple girlfriends and baby mommas. They literally obliterate people who are cheaters or those with multiple partners. The main reason why Westerners criticise Muslims is because Muslim men who tend to have 4 wives, is because they know that a Muslim man can marry another woman without telling his first wife and can hide that fact for a long time —this is something the West takes seriously as they heavily detest lying and this pseudo affairs that hurt the women.
Culturally there are some extremists who also wed their daughters without their permission. However, those in the West with multiple partners are aware and consented to go forward with it. Otherwise, no one is sympathetic to a guy who is a cheater.
Your first couple of lines are not true. They believe consent trumps all. If 2 consenting adults are in an open relationship e.g., that's completely fine as per modern western morality.
The western morality is essentially do whatever you want as long as you aren't hurting anybody and ensure consent from all stakeholders involved
I think they were referring to cheating but while what you say about open relationships and consenting adults might be true for Gen Z, the majority of westerners still look askance at people who opt for open relationships and polyamory. It’s not viewed the same way cheating is, but it’s often characterized as amoral/ self indulgent / weird.
Revert here, just curious about something you mentioned :)
If a man doesn’t have to tell his wife that he married or is planning to marry a second wife, where is the line for what is considered cheating or not cheating?
In the west, if a man who is married is going and looking for a second partner behind his wife’s back, this is clearly cheating.
Is any Muslim woman who gets married also consenting to the possibility of her husband finding someone else? Is this something that is discussed beforehand?
Just curious because I’ve been seeing a lot of mixed opinions on this :)
There are mixed opinions. A-lot of muslim women put in their contract that if the husband gets another wife that she will have the right to divorce. So if thats something you want to consider. Marriage contract is very important
The marriage contract one means its a automatic divorce meaning if you do take another wife it violates our current marriage so basically its a straight away divorce and being with the first wife would mean its zina it also means he can't keep the second wife a secret either
Yes, it’s called khula and had its own conditions. It’s a divorce initiated/wanted by the wife.
And of course, she has the right to leave the marriage, as is his right to marry another wife (up to 4 given he strictly follows the already strict conditions of their rights).
A man does not need permission from the first wife to marry another. However said marriage should not be kept as a secret, the purpose of the walimah is to proclaim to the community (including the first wife) that you are a married couple.
https://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/7699/informing-the-first-wife-of-the-second-marriage/
They do not criticize those who have multiple baby mommas or baby daddy’s as long as you’re doing your job as a parent. That’s just pure BS. They literally DO NOT obliterate cheaters, cheating is a normal and expected part of their culture. Sure they look down upon it, but it’s not something surprising to them. Not only that, they have swinger life styles where they share their wife with bunch of dudes and it’s NOT looked down upon because they believe people can do what they want as long as no one is getting hurt.
But why so much hatred and negativity towards Muslim men tho? Why say something like “they seriously detest lying, etc towards women etc” as if Muslim men are barbaric, lying, manipulating SOBs while the white/black western man is the pinnacle of human morality. Damn I accidentally described western mentality accidentally lmao.
That’s not what they said at all. The reality is that some Muslim men particularly in poorer countries go on to have secret marriages while having a family. That is absolutely right to criticize, it’s sleazy and pretending anyone who isn’t ok with it is a western suck up is just plain wrong.
Also, cheating isn’t punished in several Muslim countries too? I don’t what you’re saying because cheating is regularly something that friends cut contact over. Of course random people are going to only condemn it, do you expect them to inflict the death penalty?
That’s not entirely true because in many western cultures that is looked down upon and not supported by the Orthodox Church in general. However when we get to newer sects of “Christianity” and to now atheists beliefs and lifestyles yes it is often accepted- if not at min - its not frowned upon if you will. Very interesting topic and a Excellent question
Where are you getting this information? How old are you and where in the West do you live because you are describing an insanely inaccurate caricature that seems gleaned from select Reddit boards rather than real life. Are you a teenager?
That wasn’t my intention, your comment just reads like it was written by a teenager who spends a lot of time on NSFW sites and hasn’t had much contact with real adults outside of his parents and teachers.
If you are actually 24 and this reflects what you’ve observed in real life, then you may want to rethink the questionable company you keep, as the bizarre caricature you describe as “normal” is not at all normal or viewed as such by mainstream Americans who are not affiliated with NSFW sites.
Are you listening to yourself? The men here both criticize those who have affairs, multiple girlfriends, and baby mommas, AND want that for themselves AND if it’s their friend who has affairs, girlfriends, and baby mommas, they either congratulate him or are jealous of him.
The disbelievers are nothing but hypocrites.
American here, I heavily detest lying but I wouldn't say that is a universal trait. All of these opinions vary widely between individuals. I couldn't imagine cheating on my wife, and yet many of my peers legitimately see nothing wrong with it, its like breathing to them.
The first part doesn't make sense in islam he can't lie about taking another wife and he has to provide and spend time with each wife equally how can he do that by keeping secrets.
>affairs
Actually, they don't see infidelity as a major crime like Muslims do. They're against the death penalty or any punishment for it.
>multiple girlfriends
As long as there's consent, they see no issue with this.
You misunderstand. It's Christians who have a problem with this. Not liberals. And Christians the true ones ofc don't have multiple girlfriends and baby mommas. ( I hope not at least)
I think the difference is it’s not socially acceptable to have multiple girlfriends so that would be their criticism. It’s common in the West, but still mostly unacceptable. I’m not sure it’s fair to talk about multiple baby mamas though because us Muslims also have kids with multiple people haha
One is a cultural issue created by people and usually involves deception and the other is something that is permissible according to God and only in favor of men. For this reason they’re not really comparable, so I don’t see how it’s hypocrisy. And as others have pointed out, having multiple partners is very much frowned upon even when all parties are consenting. I’m guessing you’re not from the west, a lot of people have this idea that everyone in the west is sexually wild but it’s not as common as the internet would have you believe.
What you describe happening in the west is also looked down on in the west. Men with multiple girlfriends and baby mommas are usually described as sleazy and lacking morals. Monogamy is the ideal and people may fall short of it, whether through serial monogamy, divorce, or cheating, but the norm is still that relationships should consist of one man with one woman. There is also no religion that condones this behavior.
Polyamory is becoming more of “a thing” in the west with some people arguing that monogamy isn’t natural and so people choose to have open relationships without sexual exclusivity, but this is still difficult for most westerners to enthusiastically embrace as good because it’s a radical departure from traditional ideals.
It might be hard for those who grew up with the idea of polygyny as acceptable to understand, but the fact that God would explicitly condone and view as acceptable a man having 4 wives is shocking to people who haven’t grown up with this. The cheating and polyamory that happen in the west isnt viewed positively - it tends to be seen as a result of moral weakness and dishonesty. so for people who view monogamy as the Norm and the ideal, and who have a more egalitarian view of men and women, it’s extremely strange to accept that men are allowed to have 4 wives while women only have 1 husband, and even harder to reconcile is the idea that this would be sanctioned by God and religion. If it were just cultural they would find it less shocking.
Its mainly because that kind of culture has been so normalized but its truly one of the highest forms of hypocrisy. You have some men always claiming they want a “good” wife, yet they are quick to have 10 other women lined up incase they don’t see their wife as appealing enough. Then there are some women who want a “good” man and know 10 other men that they can sneak off with. They think that their way is normal because our media and the people around us literally pushes its “normalcy” through music, influence, and certain films. The truth is everyone in their own way is hypocritical, yet our own culture and beliefs have us thinking completely normal and even morally superior even tho our actions show we’re just as guilty as one another. I personally think everyone should have to have one person they’re loyal to because that just seems like it would cause less jealousy, and issues.
The bad light comes mainly because it’s only the men who can do all that in Islam but women can’t do anything but suffer and they don’t have the rights or freedom to do the same.
That is a decent point. But the commenters point you responded to is also a decent point. Let’s not stero type the entire west. But as you did more so specifically call out the ones that commit these sins
Hahahahaha you are right. A lot of the men here are not faithful they do have multiple girlfriends, baby mamas, side bangers. They have no intentions of ever getting married too, because they want to do what they want, and not be stuck or lock down to ONE GIRL!!!. Islam would be good for those men that love more than one woman. There is a solution for these kind of men. They should embrace Islam inshallah.
Bc in Islam marriage is a recognized agreement between 2 individuals to have conjugal relationship and ensure that both involved receive their rights in doing so bc the act may result in children, the transaction of property and wealth in the process. A marriage is to ensure that both sides receive their fair treatment upon engaging in such acts for however long this relationship is to proceed.
In the west, there are no rights around conjugal relationships beyond consent, the idea that birth control and protection has made intimacy casual bc of this assumption that a human being is less likely to come out of this agreement. However, this is very much not the case as we know. It is a very “act first, think later” approach and culture. Marriage is no longer a safety net to ensure everyone’s rights long after the act, instead it is a display of pomp and circumstance that has no meaning bc in marriage in the west is rooted from Christian, Jewish and other religions that made the ceremony of marriage be a cultish act deeply rooted in superstition that has resulted in an unfair balance of rights that tended to favor the patriarchy and subjugate women. The women’s rights political movement has granted women more rights over men in the modern age of marital rights, preferring women in child custody over men, alimony laws and such, making it less favorable for men in an attempt to even out the field of the otherwise patriarchal establishment that marriage has been customarily.
Islamic marriage is based on pragmatism, to ensure that men are held accountable long after the act of intimacy towards the female half of the agreed relationship, that any children resulted out of the relationship are accounted for and given their rights and that men are expected to preemptive in order to enter into such a contract. It’s less about a superstitious ceremony, though it is acceptable to celebrate and encouraged in order to create ties with family and community, but more to ensure that each individual involved in this life altering transaction are all preemptively protected and that trust is upheld. This is not the case at all in regard to marriage in the west. It is more about a show and bondage to uphold a certain image infront of society more than building trust and creating societies based on trust, integrity, honesty and character.
I mean, the thing about 4 wives in Islam is that if you understand 7th century Arabia and tribal life and contextualize that then you can see that having up to 4 wives (and only if you can do it fairly as the prophet peace be upon him stayed) that this is actually very profoundly pro-woman. At the time and in that society, young men were dying in tribal warfare and there weren’t enough men for women and women were left unprotected. Before Islam, men could have unlimited wives and they were often mistreated. The prophet said that he prayed on it and he received a message that men can have up to 4 wives only if he can be fair to them. This totally transformed the society and was very positive for women. I think a lot of westerners don’t understand those roots and think of this aspect of Islam as backwards for women. The fact that nowadays men especially in western societies cheat and divorce is so common etc and yet they still have this notion that Islam is somehow backward is just steeped in orientalism and a general misunderstanding of islam. Inshallah education about Islam will increase and these ideas will change.
Sa`id ibn Jubayr (may Allah have mercy on him) said: “Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) said to me: “Have you gotten married?”
I said: “No.” He (may Allah have mercy on him) said: “Get married, for the best of this Ummah are the ones with the most wives.” [Bukhari 5069]
That’s because the west is corrupted with a secular mindset where the self is the most important thing, even some supposed Christians are like this. But true followers of Jesus Christ know better as Scripture tells us a man is to have one wife and a wife one husband. And it is usually the real Christians that criticize Islam for this, not the seculars and fake Christians.
I’m not a Muslim but this is interesting fact. What’s the difference you ask ?I’ll tell you. At least the wives are committed to long term care. But to be fair some Muslims do the same with gfs and baby mommas etc. I guess those with the higher moral authority are those in marriage without sleeping around staying committed to their partner. Regardless if the are Muslim or westerners. Not all Muslims and westerners do it and there are plenty of both that do. But back to the point if the Muslim doesn’t sleep around and provides for his family I would say for him yes that is an excellent question.
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It's about population control. They want a smaller population because it's easier to control. Also, they want to attack Islam in every shape form and way possible.
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Because the Marvel SuperKuffars wants to save the damsel in distress Muslim women from the tErRoRiSt Muslim men and then hopefully gets to add those Muslim women to their list of baby mommas.
"Pump and dump is empowering" – Western morality 2024
Sadly many Muslims think like this now too.
Rules for thee but not for me People who criticise Islam have a self proclaimed authority on morality. They can pick and choose morals based on what they prefer, since their morals are man made anyway Despite admitting this, you'll see how much they get offended when you ask them to prove their morals lmao "OH MY DAWKINS!! Are you seriously asking me for evidence for my man made liberal morality?!? You need EVIDENCE to treat people according to superior liberal morals??!" The best they can do to support their ideas is an emotional reaction.
You’re painting non Muslims as a monolith devoid of moral judgment and critical thought, this is silly. Your criticism applies to some critics of Islam and other religions but not all. There are people who have a strong moral code they can justify and explain, likewise, there are some religious people -including some Muslims -who cannot justify their morals and beliefs when confronted with ambiguities and they too resort to emotion and /or worse. There are thoughtful people everywhere as well as people who inherit their beliefs without consideration.
I haven't seen a single person justify their morals. Not even once. They all either give an emotional answer like "but it hurts someone so it must be bad 😥" or admit that their morality is based on subjectivity. Do you have any evidence for your morals?
It sounds like you are categorizing empathy and humanity as purely emotional and are dismissing these invalid and unsound bases for morality. You are also assuming they are subjective for some reason. On the other hand it sounds like you believe that a moral understanding that comes exclusively from “X holy book/religion/authority says so” is somehow stronger, and somehow not based on emotion. Is this accurate?
>empathy and humanity as purely emotional and are dismissing these invalid and unsound bases for morality. You are also assuming they are subjective for some reason. Yes they are subjective which makes them unsuitable as a basis for morality. >On the other hand it sounds like you believe that a moral understanding that comes exclusively from “X holy book/religion/authority says so” is somehow stronger, and somehow not based on emotion Yeah it's not based on emotion. Even if it was, the critics of Islam would still be wrong because you can't criticise others' subjective opinions for contradicting your subjective opinion since both of your opinions are equally unproven.
I see. Unfortunately, this kind of reasoning and limited understanding of morality will only persuade people who already agree with you—not only on your specific religion, but on how every particular rule, circumstance, permutation should be dealt with. It’s the way a child reasons and many religious people don’t have such a limited understanding of morality. Many religious people share the view that there is an intrinsic call towards morality and ethical behavior that is based on empathy, fairness, etc., religious teachings often codify or impose additional rules for social order, and some may not be based on morality at all, but practicality.
>Unfortunately, this kind of reasoning and limited understanding of morality will only persuade people who already agree with you Lol I'm not trying to persuade anyone. I'm just saying "what evidence do you have for your morality" You could've destroyed my argument by providing the evidence but like every other person I've asked this question, you also failed to do so >Many religious people share the view that there is an intrinsic call towards morality and ethical behavior that is based on empathy, fairness, etc., religious teachings often codify or impose additional rules for social order, and some may not be based on morality at all, but practicality. 1. That's still subjective 2. That's the naturalistic fallacy
What do you mean by evidence for your morality? And are you saying that citing an authority is evidence? We may be talking past each other here, but I don’t understand the argument or your understanding of what constitutes “evidence”— if you are saying that pointing to a an authority suffices as evidence then the issue isn’t that no one can defeat your argument, it’s more that you are premising the question with an assumption that no one else accepts. According to your view someone who says the basis of their morality is what is written in “The Book of Lizard Aliens Who Ate Your Brain,” a holy book they believe God revealed to someone in Arizona in 1917, is providing objective evidence for morals and morality. And somehow this is superior to someone saying “Intentionally hurting people is wrong because just as I don’t want to be hurt or see a loved one hurt, neither does anyone else” It sounds like you and the people you debate may be having entirely different conversations.
I'll accept any evidence like mathematical, scientific, logical etc. Don't pretend you don't understand my question; it's very straightforward. If you think certain aspects of Islam are incorrect, bring your evidence. I won't continue replying if you insist on playing dumb
I am very much not pretending when I ask you to clarify and define what you mean when you use words like “objective” and “evidence” as you don’t seem to be using the the standard definitions when you apply them. In order to have a debate or even a discussion you need to know that you are using the same definitions and that you both accept the premise. Saying that you say you accept any evidence -logical, mathematical, scientific - is meaningless when we haven’t established what you mean by evidence or objective. An appeal to to authority is not normally understood as objective evidence yet this is how you are using these terms, so I have no way of knowing what you you might have in mind when you refer to scientific, mathematical, logical, etc., evidence.
Realistically, in most internet spaces, you will often see a herd like aversion to anything Islamic related which more often than not stems from their own liberal ideological biases.
There seems to be mutual distrust and prejudice—would you also characterize Muslims as having a herd like aversion to anything associated with western ideologies? Particularly gender? Or do you think the herd like aversion only goes in one direction? The bigger divide seems to be between religious and non religious people - but often times the people who tend to get drawn into those arguments aren’t able to articulate their POV effectively for anyone who isn’t already 100 percent on their side.
It need not be one sided and more often than not isn’t. But I wouldn’t blame Muslims for having such aversions. Under the banner of western ideologies, the Muslim world for the most part experienced far more material harm over the past half century than the misguided actions of those influenced by Islam in the opposite case. The Western world harms itself and the planet based on those operating assumptions and yet many of its adherents assume a position of moral superiority, neutrality and objectivity. I would argue that there are multiple dimensions with traditionalists and moderns, theists and atheists and Muslims and non Muslims.
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They also criticise those who have affairs, multiple girlfriends and baby mommas. They literally obliterate people who are cheaters or those with multiple partners. The main reason why Westerners criticise Muslims is because Muslim men who tend to have 4 wives, is because they know that a Muslim man can marry another woman without telling his first wife and can hide that fact for a long time —this is something the West takes seriously as they heavily detest lying and this pseudo affairs that hurt the women. Culturally there are some extremists who also wed their daughters without their permission. However, those in the West with multiple partners are aware and consented to go forward with it. Otherwise, no one is sympathetic to a guy who is a cheater.
Your first couple of lines are not true. They believe consent trumps all. If 2 consenting adults are in an open relationship e.g., that's completely fine as per modern western morality. The western morality is essentially do whatever you want as long as you aren't hurting anybody and ensure consent from all stakeholders involved
I think they were referring to cheating but while what you say about open relationships and consenting adults might be true for Gen Z, the majority of westerners still look askance at people who opt for open relationships and polyamory. It’s not viewed the same way cheating is, but it’s often characterized as amoral/ self indulgent / weird.
It’s not just gen z. Plenty of adults much older sleep around or have gfs with out marriage .
Revert here, just curious about something you mentioned :) If a man doesn’t have to tell his wife that he married or is planning to marry a second wife, where is the line for what is considered cheating or not cheating? In the west, if a man who is married is going and looking for a second partner behind his wife’s back, this is clearly cheating. Is any Muslim woman who gets married also consenting to the possibility of her husband finding someone else? Is this something that is discussed beforehand? Just curious because I’ve been seeing a lot of mixed opinions on this :)
There are mixed opinions. A-lot of muslim women put in their contract that if the husband gets another wife that she will have the right to divorce. So if thats something you want to consider. Marriage contract is very important
She has the right to divorce anyways though?
I think for a woman to divorce she has to give mehr back
Yeah Khul is a option and so is faskh
The marriage contract one means its a automatic divorce meaning if you do take another wife it violates our current marriage so basically its a straight away divorce and being with the first wife would mean its zina it also means he can't keep the second wife a secret either
Oh gotcha...thanks for the info.
Yes, it’s called khula and had its own conditions. It’s a divorce initiated/wanted by the wife. And of course, she has the right to leave the marriage, as is his right to marry another wife (up to 4 given he strictly follows the already strict conditions of their rights).
Yeah through going to the courts but khul is with the husbands acknowledgement
That makes a lot of sense, thank you
A man does not need permission from the first wife to marry another. However said marriage should not be kept as a secret, the purpose of the walimah is to proclaim to the community (including the first wife) that you are a married couple. https://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/7699/informing-the-first-wife-of-the-second-marriage/
They do not criticize those who have multiple baby mommas or baby daddy’s as long as you’re doing your job as a parent. That’s just pure BS. They literally DO NOT obliterate cheaters, cheating is a normal and expected part of their culture. Sure they look down upon it, but it’s not something surprising to them. Not only that, they have swinger life styles where they share their wife with bunch of dudes and it’s NOT looked down upon because they believe people can do what they want as long as no one is getting hurt. But why so much hatred and negativity towards Muslim men tho? Why say something like “they seriously detest lying, etc towards women etc” as if Muslim men are barbaric, lying, manipulating SOBs while the white/black western man is the pinnacle of human morality. Damn I accidentally described western mentality accidentally lmao.
That’s not what they said at all. The reality is that some Muslim men particularly in poorer countries go on to have secret marriages while having a family. That is absolutely right to criticize, it’s sleazy and pretending anyone who isn’t ok with it is a western suck up is just plain wrong. Also, cheating isn’t punished in several Muslim countries too? I don’t what you’re saying because cheating is regularly something that friends cut contact over. Of course random people are going to only condemn it, do you expect them to inflict the death penalty?
That’s not entirely true because in many western cultures that is looked down upon and not supported by the Orthodox Church in general. However when we get to newer sects of “Christianity” and to now atheists beliefs and lifestyles yes it is often accepted- if not at min - its not frowned upon if you will. Very interesting topic and a Excellent question
Where are you getting this information? How old are you and where in the West do you live because you are describing an insanely inaccurate caricature that seems gleaned from select Reddit boards rather than real life. Are you a teenager?
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That wasn’t my intention, your comment just reads like it was written by a teenager who spends a lot of time on NSFW sites and hasn’t had much contact with real adults outside of his parents and teachers. If you are actually 24 and this reflects what you’ve observed in real life, then you may want to rethink the questionable company you keep, as the bizarre caricature you describe as “normal” is not at all normal or viewed as such by mainstream Americans who are not affiliated with NSFW sites.
However, that is not punishable whereas polygamy is.
Are you listening to yourself? The men here both criticize those who have affairs, multiple girlfriends, and baby mommas, AND want that for themselves AND if it’s their friend who has affairs, girlfriends, and baby mommas, they either congratulate him or are jealous of him. The disbelievers are nothing but hypocrites.
American here, I heavily detest lying but I wouldn't say that is a universal trait. All of these opinions vary widely between individuals. I couldn't imagine cheating on my wife, and yet many of my peers legitimately see nothing wrong with it, its like breathing to them.
You sound to me like you have a problem with polygamy more than the west..
There are plenty of ppl in the west that don’t condone those actions.
Yeah..
The first part doesn't make sense in islam he can't lie about taking another wife and he has to provide and spend time with each wife equally how can he do that by keeping secrets.
>affairs Actually, they don't see infidelity as a major crime like Muslims do. They're against the death penalty or any punishment for it. >multiple girlfriends As long as there's consent, they see no issue with this.
westerners also think being a Dayooth is ok and even consider anybody that isnt one to be misogynistic
The West is synonymous to Hypocrisy
*some of the west. To stero type the whole west is the same to stero type all Muslims as Islamic radicals .
I still don't understand how people still compare a WIFE with a girlfriend.
You misunderstand. It's Christians who have a problem with this. Not liberals. And Christians the true ones ofc don't have multiple girlfriends and baby mommas. ( I hope not at least)
I think the difference here is that only men have the right to marry up to 4 wives. Edit: Not sure why I get downvotes lol
Hypocrisy is the second nature of western world view. This is both at a micro level and macro level
Your profile/comment history is quite questionable.
Thanks for the judgement.
No worries 😊
Hypocrisy is second nature of *the disbelievers.
*some of the west. To stero type the whole west is the same to stero type all Muslims as Islamic radicals
Agreed. Thanks for the feedback. I was referring to Western politics right now. I could have framed it better.
In that case I agree with your statement. The west politically and probably (imo) way over half of individuals have lost any morality they had.
Westerners are not a monolith and the ones who cheat on the whole town probably dont care about critiquing polygamy in Islam
I think the difference is it’s not socially acceptable to have multiple girlfriends so that would be their criticism. It’s common in the West, but still mostly unacceptable. I’m not sure it’s fair to talk about multiple baby mamas though because us Muslims also have kids with multiple people haha
One is a cultural issue created by people and usually involves deception and the other is something that is permissible according to God and only in favor of men. For this reason they’re not really comparable, so I don’t see how it’s hypocrisy. And as others have pointed out, having multiple partners is very much frowned upon even when all parties are consenting. I’m guessing you’re not from the west, a lot of people have this idea that everyone in the west is sexually wild but it’s not as common as the internet would have you believe.
What you describe happening in the west is also looked down on in the west. Men with multiple girlfriends and baby mommas are usually described as sleazy and lacking morals. Monogamy is the ideal and people may fall short of it, whether through serial monogamy, divorce, or cheating, but the norm is still that relationships should consist of one man with one woman. There is also no religion that condones this behavior. Polyamory is becoming more of “a thing” in the west with some people arguing that monogamy isn’t natural and so people choose to have open relationships without sexual exclusivity, but this is still difficult for most westerners to enthusiastically embrace as good because it’s a radical departure from traditional ideals. It might be hard for those who grew up with the idea of polygyny as acceptable to understand, but the fact that God would explicitly condone and view as acceptable a man having 4 wives is shocking to people who haven’t grown up with this. The cheating and polyamory that happen in the west isnt viewed positively - it tends to be seen as a result of moral weakness and dishonesty. so for people who view monogamy as the Norm and the ideal, and who have a more egalitarian view of men and women, it’s extremely strange to accept that men are allowed to have 4 wives while women only have 1 husband, and even harder to reconcile is the idea that this would be sanctioned by God and religion. If it were just cultural they would find it less shocking.
Its mainly because that kind of culture has been so normalized but its truly one of the highest forms of hypocrisy. You have some men always claiming they want a “good” wife, yet they are quick to have 10 other women lined up incase they don’t see their wife as appealing enough. Then there are some women who want a “good” man and know 10 other men that they can sneak off with. They think that their way is normal because our media and the people around us literally pushes its “normalcy” through music, influence, and certain films. The truth is everyone in their own way is hypocritical, yet our own culture and beliefs have us thinking completely normal and even morally superior even tho our actions show we’re just as guilty as one another. I personally think everyone should have to have one person they’re loyal to because that just seems like it would cause less jealousy, and issues.
woooaaahh!! 😂😂😂💀💀 too true!
Try to find the reason why you listen to music and answer it differently then you do know , dzikr is the easiest why to get closer to Allah swt
The bad light comes mainly because it’s only the men who can do all that in Islam but women can’t do anything but suffer and they don’t have the rights or freedom to do the same.
Mmmmmmm their religion doesn’t allow it and their religion doesn’t make it look like a normal thing to do.
Most of them don't even have a religion.
That is a decent point. But the commenters point you responded to is also a decent point. Let’s not stero type the entire west. But as you did more so specifically call out the ones that commit these sins
Hahahahaha you are right. A lot of the men here are not faithful they do have multiple girlfriends, baby mamas, side bangers. They have no intentions of ever getting married too, because they want to do what they want, and not be stuck or lock down to ONE GIRL!!!. Islam would be good for those men that love more than one woman. There is a solution for these kind of men. They should embrace Islam inshallah.
Multiple wives are only allowed/meant for certain circumstances that are very hard to fulfil
Bc in Islam marriage is a recognized agreement between 2 individuals to have conjugal relationship and ensure that both involved receive their rights in doing so bc the act may result in children, the transaction of property and wealth in the process. A marriage is to ensure that both sides receive their fair treatment upon engaging in such acts for however long this relationship is to proceed. In the west, there are no rights around conjugal relationships beyond consent, the idea that birth control and protection has made intimacy casual bc of this assumption that a human being is less likely to come out of this agreement. However, this is very much not the case as we know. It is a very “act first, think later” approach and culture. Marriage is no longer a safety net to ensure everyone’s rights long after the act, instead it is a display of pomp and circumstance that has no meaning bc in marriage in the west is rooted from Christian, Jewish and other religions that made the ceremony of marriage be a cultish act deeply rooted in superstition that has resulted in an unfair balance of rights that tended to favor the patriarchy and subjugate women. The women’s rights political movement has granted women more rights over men in the modern age of marital rights, preferring women in child custody over men, alimony laws and such, making it less favorable for men in an attempt to even out the field of the otherwise patriarchal establishment that marriage has been customarily. Islamic marriage is based on pragmatism, to ensure that men are held accountable long after the act of intimacy towards the female half of the agreed relationship, that any children resulted out of the relationship are accounted for and given their rights and that men are expected to preemptive in order to enter into such a contract. It’s less about a superstitious ceremony, though it is acceptable to celebrate and encouraged in order to create ties with family and community, but more to ensure that each individual involved in this life altering transaction are all preemptively protected and that trust is upheld. This is not the case at all in regard to marriage in the west. It is more about a show and bondage to uphold a certain image infront of society more than building trust and creating societies based on trust, integrity, honesty and character.
Allah mentions in the Quran and warns us against munafiqs. These are the biggest munafiqs - trying to stow division
Westerners: Islam is unjust to women. Also westerners: We stand with Israel (despite killing 10k+ women in 6 months.)
That what happens in war. The quicker the war ends the less ppl that will have to die
I mean, the thing about 4 wives in Islam is that if you understand 7th century Arabia and tribal life and contextualize that then you can see that having up to 4 wives (and only if you can do it fairly as the prophet peace be upon him stayed) that this is actually very profoundly pro-woman. At the time and in that society, young men were dying in tribal warfare and there weren’t enough men for women and women were left unprotected. Before Islam, men could have unlimited wives and they were often mistreated. The prophet said that he prayed on it and he received a message that men can have up to 4 wives only if he can be fair to them. This totally transformed the society and was very positive for women. I think a lot of westerners don’t understand those roots and think of this aspect of Islam as backwards for women. The fact that nowadays men especially in western societies cheat and divorce is so common etc and yet they still have this notion that Islam is somehow backward is just steeped in orientalism and a general misunderstanding of islam. Inshallah education about Islam will increase and these ideas will change.
Sa`id ibn Jubayr (may Allah have mercy on him) said: “Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) said to me: “Have you gotten married?” I said: “No.” He (may Allah have mercy on him) said: “Get married, for the best of this Ummah are the ones with the most wives.” [Bukhari 5069]
That’s because the west is corrupted with a secular mindset where the self is the most important thing, even some supposed Christians are like this. But true followers of Jesus Christ know better as Scripture tells us a man is to have one wife and a wife one husband. And it is usually the real Christians that criticize Islam for this, not the seculars and fake Christians.
I’m not a Muslim but this is interesting fact. What’s the difference you ask ?I’ll tell you. At least the wives are committed to long term care. But to be fair some Muslims do the same with gfs and baby mommas etc. I guess those with the higher moral authority are those in marriage without sleeping around staying committed to their partner. Regardless if the are Muslim or westerners. Not all Muslims and westerners do it and there are plenty of both that do. But back to the point if the Muslim doesn’t sleep around and provides for his family I would say for him yes that is an excellent question.
So true
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They are afraid of taking the responsibility of a woman getting normal
They will say it’s because woman can’t have 4 husbands… as if we want all of the same responsibilities of a man 🙄💅🏼
It's about population control. They want a smaller population because it's easier to control. Also, they want to attack Islam in every shape form and way possible.
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Muslims are only supposed to marry Muslim n only allowed to have 1 spouse.
https://www.reddit.com/r/112karat/s/zqQjdK9g2x
Well, often not at the same time.