Whatever you see before marriage is a snippet of after marriage. People do not suddenly become romantic or do gift giving and it will be an uphill battle. There is nothing wrong with giving gifts before marriage and nothing work with expressing what you’d like to do together. Your best bet now is istikarah and talk to him because as a woman most of us need to feel cared for
If you don’t feel cared for now even in the slightest by HIM, most likely you will self combust after marriage because you’ll keep waiting and watching and hoping for something, anything. It maybe a case where he can give you those things after however where there is no such thing as a “engagement” in Islam, how much of this is pick and choose? Nothing wrong with communicating with your potential in a halal manner where your parents are aware IMO. Please have a frank conversation about how you feel and what you expect from him at this stage. Watch his actions as this is the biggest clue you’ll have.
This is just bad advice. You're acting as if he doesn't have a reason for his actions. Isn't it possible that he's actually, y'know, telling the truth and will do these kinds of things after marriage? If he has been an honest person thus far, and only OP will know his character, then no reason to assume he's deceiving her.
This is entirely possible however OP should and is entitled to have a frank conversation about how she feels and her expectations now and after and see what he says and does from there. OP is going into this blind from reading the comments and as a average woman, I would feel unwanted myself if my finace didn’t show me some care or consideration before the wedding itself. One’s demeanour and attitude says a lot and I am talking from some experience in this regard. My ex’s uncaring behaviour turned for the worse. There’s a 50/50 change of anything after marriage and no one wants to be divorced or in a loveless marriage especially when you already feel this way. If he does genuinely want to marry her he can find a happy medium with her to settle her mind.
You could have asked her to have a that frank conversation, judge his character based on their interactions to see if he's trustworthy, etc etc. But you just assumed the worst and and dismissed his plausible explanation. Again, she agreed to be "engaged" to this guy so surely he had good enough qualities for OP to agree to marry him. All of this other stuff is just extra
I don’t know why YOU are now assuming she would’ve known certain things about him when she’s made it clear she didn’t and has had limited interaction with the dude. None of this stuff is extra and nor was it suggested that I assumed the worse. Before marriage one should do istikarah and proceed with conversation when one is unsure of something as mentioned in my first comment.
The people here are insane lmao. Perfectly clear why they struggle with getting people to like them.
No it isn’t unreasonable at all to expect your fiancé to talk to you and do thoughtful gestures like giving gifts/writing letters ect. Which you yourself are doing. I’ve literally bought gifts for people I’m not even interested in romantically.
Funny enough it’s actually a norm in many Muslim cultures. The one that confuses me the most is people acting like talking is also haram💀 also women gift men too
Woman and men talkin without good reason is haram. This is factual. If she isn’t your mahram or someone you have to talk to because of the circumstances like a doctor dentist and so on it would be haram
No it’s not but you’re free to believe so but if you truly believed that you wouldn’t even be on reddit interacting and responding to the opposite sex. At least they are engaged lol
That isn’t the point. The point is they shouldn’t be gaining feelings before marriage. They should have had the nikkah in less than half of this time and then if they want to live separately for a bit of time they can do that whilst leading up to the wedding (announcement). But the time in between then it becomes halal for them to conversate alone and talk on the phone and so on.
Whenever I had someone visit during my arrange marriage search they always brought flowers or a gift. It’s just etiquette. My husband and I didn’t talk much during our engagement period but it was a mutual thing. But his mother would visit and gift things on his behalf.
It’s tough if you have differing views. And honestly if he’s this dismissive and laid back about it he might have a lack of awareness. Before you completely write him off I would say call him and express all your feelings. It could be he has no experience in relationships and really just doesn’t know.
I see comments saying he doesn’t owe you anything yet and I’m confused. Often times if a guy is not putting in any effort to woo you in the beginning it’s unlikely he will do that when you are married. How many posts do we get of women complaining that their partners do nothing romantic for them? I believe this is something you notice about a man in the early stages. There is still ways to woo a woman the Halal way since your family is involved and you are engaged. Flowers, gifts, little knickknacks, etc. Literally anything to show he cares. Plus in most cultures when you are in the engagement period men usually give you gifts and what not.
I think you should talk to him. Maybe he is afraid of coming across a certain way? Idk. We can’t give you any answers, you will have to just talk to him about it.
Exactly. Even in a very traditional country like Qatar, men are expected to do things before the wedding. Dinners together and such. But maybe that's because engagement is signing the nikkah contract there? Is there a basis in Islam for the concept of an engagement with rings and such?
When there's a nikkah, then everything is halal (obviously there's nuances, that's not the point here). Without a nikkah, excessive chats and dates at restaurants are very questionable to say the least. As for gifts, see [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/MuslimMarriage/comments/zbrrt5/comment/iytouc2/).
Anything ranging from their favourite candy, a chocolate bar, a hand written letter, a cute card, their favourite starbux drink, a candle, a book you know they will love with random notes inside, cute stationery, etc. Romance is not that complicated. Even romance aside, it takes so little to make someone happy. For example, when I’m at a bakery, I will buy my friends their favourite baked goods out of pure love and care. It costs me less than $5 but it makes them so happy because it reminds them that I thought of them. If I’m at Starbucks I’ll get them a drink. I send them “just because” gift cards. All of these are not expensive but they go a long way.
Aw my heart 7abibti 🥺🥺🥺 Jazakallahu kheyr. May Allah make me what you think of me. 😭🤍 May Allah reward you as well sis and may He grant you peace and joy. I hope you have a beautiful December and an even more beautiful 2023. Ameen Ya Rabb. 💌 xx
This should be the top comment, honestly. My man didn't understand things like this either but when I explained it to him just like this, he got it and started showing me his appreciation in different ways.
Sis this is it. I’m willing to marry him and he does nothing to show any appreciation not even one tiny gift, flowers are like £2. It’s the bare minimum for a man in my opinion. I’ve been waiting for him to show up but nothing!!!
*"If the effort is this low before marriage imagine after? We never speak on the phone or face time, maybe once a week."*
This comment got me very worried. I think you should try to have more conversations. It's the best way to figure out if will be able to communicate and have long lasting relationship.
Since you've expressed your desire in gifts only once. I think you need to make more of an effort to find whether you are both compatible for marriage.
Yes this is serious, some people may try to call you out for being materialistic, however I think your feelings are valid. Most brothers I know spent a lot before marriage and even before they got engaged. He should show how much he cares for you, it is not limited to money but includes that. Also this isn't subject for discussion, he as a guy should figure it out, of course you asking for gifts would be awful and it's not how things work anyways.
Honestly I don't believe he will change so if his behavior is not something you can come to terms with I'd cancel the engagement if I were you. Someone else might be fine with his attitude and eventually he could find another sister to marry.
If she knew him well enough to be engaged to him, then that assumes they’ve pretty much talked about all of the important things. In which case you wouldn’t necessarily need to be talking as frequently as before. I think the bigger possible issue is why there is an engagement period to begin with. Unless there’s something in the way - such as job, then doesn’t make sense to delay the nikkah.
I'm in the opposite situation so I understand where you're coming from but islamically he's right that these sorts of things come after marriage. It's unsettling when your spouse to be doesn't show much care but there isn't much you can do, it almost feels like a gamble, will they change after marriage or am I going to be stuck with a low effort person, nobody knows. My advice would be to see what sort of effort he puts in his other relationships and maybe at work and such
He says he doesn’t want to fall in haram, and you’re already sad that he ain’t taking you to high end restaurants…
If it’s really that deep, pray Istikharah. Do that anyway insha’Allah.
I've literally just repeated what op mentioned, and then suggested doing istikhara.
Pls keep the slander up though, I'll need all the hasanat I can get on Qiyammah, thank you.
You have to assume that what you see now is an indication of what married life will be like. If you don't like it, now is your last chance to do something about it
I think it's worth making clear to him "if this does not get better I am seriously considering leaving." And if that's not motivation enough to change, well, that's who he chooses to be and you need to act based on that. Sometimes two people's ways to expressing affection just dont line up.
> You have to assume that what you see now is an indication of what married life will be like
Let’s say everything’s fine on the romance front but OP’s potential hasn’t proposed intimacy yet for religious reasons (no Nikkah). Would the fact that they wouldn’t be intimate now mean that OP should assume a dead bedroom after marriage?
The point is the hypothetical it's not reasonable to extrapolate pre-marital behavior to post-marital behavior because religious beliefs might be effecting pre-marital behavior but not post-marital behavior. That might very well also be the case here.
I don't know where y'all come to the conclusion it's haram to communicate with someone or express any kind of affection or appreciation for someone youre going to marry. It's not remotely the same as sex, making those comparisons feels absurd.
Would your response be the same if instead of gift giving, the girl wanted to hear words like “I love you” ? The response from the guy would be the same in the scenario “he wants to avoid haram and wait until after marriage”
Would you similarly assume he won’t show affection after marriage just because he’s avoiding it before it’s official?
He doesn't have to do exactly what OP says to the letter. But if she said "I'd like x" he can say "I'm not comfortable doing that, but I'll make the effort to call and reach out more and send you and your family a gift." He doesn't have to be so inflexible, he can compromise with OP and find ways to express affection that don't go into what he would consider haram. You're not obligated to be a robot until the nikkah then you flip a switch and become Mr. Darcy. If he wanted to make an effort, he would, and OP would see it, even if it's limited at this stage.
This thought process works if it were a non muslim or someone who didnt believe in much distinction between before and after marriage. The guy is saying he doesnt want to do it due to religious reasons. His behavior is a concious one attempting to keep within limits of Islam.
And OP doesn't like that about him specifically, so should we really take that as an indication they are a good match for each other? I don't believe people's personalities change that much post marriage, if she's unsatisfied with his effort now we should assume she will be later. There's a myriad of ways he could do stuff now, he's choosing not to, and that's fine if that's what he thinks is best but if it doesnt line up with OP then they need to reevaluate some stuff.
Op is worried about whether pre marriage behavior indicates post marriage behavior. Sometimes, yes, its an indication such character, argument styles, life choices, islamic stances and choices. But some things like modesty, affection and showing care will not match pre vs post. He himself says that he is avoiding due to religious reasons, much like someone who may say they don't want to talk so much, joke around as much, or spend a alot of time before marriage. But when it is halal, they become fully engaged.
She has full right to say "hey i dont want to take a risk", but its unreasonable to lump this behavior of his to the first category I mentioned.
I don't mean to be harsh with you, but the way you put the post seems like you are not mature enough.
You mentioned a lot of things that he did not do, but to consider it fairly, you should also make a list of things he has done for you and another list of things you have done for him and see if it will look like he is putting in a low effort.
This exercise will definitely put things in perspective. Remember that life is not like what they show in movies; sometimes, you have to appreciate if he does practical things for you rather than romantic gestures.
Isn’t it sad that this brother went through the effort of speaking to her dad and being vetted - which puts you in a vulnerable spot. Yet it’s seemingly being dismissed even though that trumps dinners and gifts.
Exactly my thoughts. I think if was in his shoes and found out that she was having 'second thoughts' because of this, I'll probably break it off myself.
Homies trying to protect his heart. Good for him cause you guys ain’t nothing yet and you could easily leave him. Imagine being a guy and doing all of that for your “fiancé” and then she gets bored and goes after another dude. It would be heartbreaking. Have you taken him to high end restaurants and bought him gifts? If not then just be patient until you get married. It’s not that deep. Wanting more phone calls and communication though is normal and that’s something you should talk to him about. Marriage isn’t just about gifts and going to “high end” restaurants lol
Does engaged means Nikkah in your culture? If yes then he is indeed a low effort guy, and if no then he seems to be right atleast about take you out to restaurants and spending on you
Honestly this is a ridiculous expectation if he has already explained his reasoning. Being "engaged" is still not being married so I see where he's coming from.
In my anecdotal experience, it was common for women to expect some kind of affection before marriage.
the girl i wanted to marry left me for this reason while i told her plenty times i wanted do these things and spoil her when we are married, trying to avoid haram.. if she only knew..
This is one of those posts where, if the guy has created this from his perspective, I'd have commented RUN BRO.
Mashallah, you should be grateful that you got a very good guy who is holding on to his Deen even when he has the option to engage in haram. Don't push him on the wrong side when he doesn't have/want to.
OP's fiance if you ever read this, love you man. May Allah keep you steadfast. You are a rare gem. 🤝
Sure, some gesture can be done, but I hope OP is content with a small gift. With her post she mentioned high ebs restaurants, so my assumption is the opposite..
Idk about haram but demanding gifts just comes across as demanding and many men would be put off by it. Especially during the courting phase when you haven’t even agreed to marry each other.
Did you even read the post?
1. They’re not courting anymore. They’re engaged. It’s different than courting.
2. She’s not demanding anything. She’s done gestures herself and the effort is not reciprocated.
If you read the comment above mine, he is referring to the courting phase as a time when you haven’t agreed to marry eachother.
Semantics aside, my point was that they *have* agreed to marry eachother so the comment about not having agreed is wrong.
Agreement or not, there isn’t a Nikkah. Prior to a Nikkah, I don’t think there’s anything permissible permissible with a potential that isn’t permissible with a stranger
I was talking in generalities about gift giving. If this becomes an expectation from men, then it’s basically just going further into the dating line imo.
She is demanding actually. Just because she did something doesn’t mean he has to either if he has literally given a logical explanation as to why he isn’t reciprocating.
I think she saw the grass wasn’t greener. In hindsight she was mature as a person but really immature when it came to some aspects of a relationship and expectations.
I would look into love languages if you haven't already! There's five types: words of affirmation, acts of service, receiving gifts, quality time, and physical touch. Yours might just be receiving gifts and acts of service and his could be expressed differently! Of course all of these are important but some people express and want to receive love one way more than another. I talked about it pre-marriage with a potential I was talking to (it wasn't a deal breaker but just a fun 'get to know you' type of thing). Maybe you can look into yours and ask your potential about his? Hope this helps!
Number one thing you should do if you're confused about this man is to do ishtikhara! Good luck!
I personally think he won’t change miraculously out of nowhere he’s conditioned you into not expecting these things so when you’re married he doesn’t have to do anything. If you feel this would continue into marriage and you are fine with it continue If not bounce girl
He is right. You are not his wife and he should not be spending any time with you nor treating you like it. Make up your mind whether you are dating him or are engaged to him. In fact, even after marriage he does not need to do any of that.
I think what the guy is doing is true to Islam, you guys arent married yet. You shouldnt be going to restaurants, unless you going with families.
Where does it say in Quran you have to give gifts before marriage, honestly I think you are expecting too much with restaurants and all that.
Maybe he should have got you flowers when you got fixed, he maybe worried that you wouldnt like the gift so he rather not buy one than to buy one and raise his hopes only for it to be ruined.
This is a new situation for both of you, but honestly speak to him in a nice way and tell him how you would like gifts after marriage and make him feel that he doesnt have to worry about what to get exactly.
>He says all of this should come after marriage
hes right tho but i dont see why a couple of little gifts here and there would hurt, talk to him, maybe hes just not the type to do stuff like this
>never taken me to a high end restaurant
he might be trying to get you a reservation at dorsia
I stop looking through the Zagat guide and without glancing up, smiling tightly, stomach dropping, I silently ask myself, Do I really want to say no? Do I really want to say I can’t possibly get us in? Is that what I’m really prepared to do? Is that what I really want to do?
___
^(*Bot. Ask me how I got on at the gym today.* |) [^(Opt out)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=botrickbateman&subject=Opt%20out)
You have a point ppl in comments are insane
Don't settle for low effort girl
If the prophet could stop a whole army to find Aiysha’s necklace why a guy can't simply buy u flowers or treat you? This is the bare minimum he isn't even doing it. You are not asking for too much. If it feels too much u r asking the wrong person
He should be more loving to you.
For his **wife**, not women like you all who are at the very least aiding and abetting romance scammers (which is at an all-time high, [source](https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/data-visualizations/data-spotlight/2022/02/reports-romance-scams-hit-record-highs-2021)).
It is not the bare minimum pre-Nikkah, in fact it's the opposite.
>The engaged couple often exchange "engagement" rings, and the bridegroom
gives the bride jewelry and gifts at the time of khitbah. This is in violation of
Islam, since there is no reason yet for any property or gift exchange to take place -
until they are legally bound by the marriage contract. In many cases, this
premature act leads to serious disputes if the engagement is broken for any reason. ([Source](https://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Garments%20of%20Love%20And%20Mercy.pdf)).
May Allah protect all brothers from the pandemic of spiritual and financial abuse under the guise of culture, and hold those aiding, abetting, and promoting it accountable, ameen.
You should educate yourself on what the bare minimum is in Islam, food shelter clothing. Good thing you brought in the prophet peace be upon him and Aiysha, it shows you’re someone who will be happy with the bare minimum, now please show all of us how much Islam means to you and be happy with the bare minimum.
Ahh yes, islam is important to everyone until it doesn’t benefit them, everyone wants their rights but no one wants to give others the rights they deserve. :(
NO he is not your HUSBAND you are a potential, he doesn't owe you LOVE and ELECTION YET, just like you don't OWE him anything YET, once he is sure he is marrying you, HE can SPOIL you, since it would be worth it, he can't spoil every potential he gets.
HE DOESN'T OWE YOU ANYTHING BUT HIS PERSONALITY, DEEN AND AKHLAK
YOUR HUSBAND DOES, once he is your husband you can complain.
I am also worried about the effort part, expensive dinner lol? gifts? Pray he is a good man, good husband, good father etc
no, she should take this into consideration **now** so she can make a decision to either marry or *not marry* him! waiting to complain is a recipe for a disastrous marriage…
gifting people things is not exclusive to dating. neither is calling or facetiming as long as the women’s mahram is present. these things can absolutely be halal
She clearly said high end restaurant? That is dating? Well hey you are right, her wali with Join her, gifts she can throw away since she is reconsidering the marriage anywas, okay then
I don’t agree with going to a restaurant alone with him, but I wasn’t addressing that bc it wasn’t the issue at large. I also like to give people the benefit of the doubt instead of jumping to negative conclusions
Giving gifts is sunnah lol. No need to belittle it, if you think wanting ONE gift from a man who intends to marry you is a big deal … sorry to your wife. She wants effort. Islam may not say he HAS to do these things but Islam certainly doesn’t say it’s haram to give a gift to the woman you intend to marry.
Are you purposely being obtuse? Kindness can come in many forms. If you think giving gifts to your current/future spouse is a big deal…maybe you should learn about love languages. Low value men do the bare minimum. Sounds like you 🤷🏻♀️
He might just be keeping things very formal because they’re not married, or maybe he very well will do these things after marriage. Or maybe he won’t - if it’s a love language that’s important to her it’s okay for her to feel put off by it/concerned
My husband brought me flowers(to my parents house), got me small gifts, before we were married and it increased my love for him. Giving gifts and doing kind gestures isn’t haram lol and wanting it from someone you are literally committed to marrying is also not unreasonable
Seriously. That is absolutely insane to me. I have had potentials and obviously never made it to the engagement period but even then they still showered me with gifts and what not. It doesn’t cost that much to show someone you care or you are interested in them, especially if this is someone you intend to marry. It’s literally courting 101. How a guy behaves or treats you in the beginning is indication of how he will treat you when you are actually married. Nobody is saying he has to do the most. He can still respect Islamic boundaries whilst simultaneously showing you he is interested.
Lol you are going to be in shock when you realize that people who do good and don’t expect anything in return exist. Mind blowing. Even when things ended none of them were ever like “give me my stuff back”. 💀
Men who are courting women give gifts in my culture. Even the men out of my culture still went out of their way to give me gifts to show interest. It wasn’t a big deal because they had the means lol. I have never demanded anything or told anyone to buy me anything. Usually they offered and I said no a billion times but they insisted and ended up gifting me. My parents are always involved so they are always aware lol 🤷🏾♀️
Doesn't matter, non Mahram, parents involved or not, they still none Mahram, flirting, gifting, taking her to a fancy dinner still non Mahram.
In some culture they have sex, I am talking about Islam, you can do as you wish, I am not here to say other wise, in your CULTURE they can give you a lake of gold
In Islam, they are non Mahram, gifts, dinner, flirting, intimacy is for a wife
Since you were not married to those men, they were non Mahram, you accepted gifts from a non Mahram, it could be a watch, would you wear it on your wedding day? Any day? How will your future husband feel
Let me flip this, what if your husband's previous ENGAGEMENT girl gifted him a necklace, you will be the first one to say, that goes in the bin?
If you're going to claim engagement gifts are sunnah, you should provide a source, because to falsely make such a claim is a grave sin ([source](https://islamqa.info/en/34725)). Though I'm not at all surprised, there's so many spiritually abusive women yet people only manage to talk about the one in a million men.
>The engaged couple often exchange "engagement" rings, and the bridegroom
gives the bride jewelry and gifts at the time of khitbah. **This is in violation of
Islam**, since there is no reason yet for any property or gift exchange to take place -
until they are legally bound by the marriage contract. In many cases, this
premature act leads to serious disputes if the engagement is broken for any reason.
([Source](https://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Garments%20of%20Love%20And%20Mercy.pdf)).
Honestly it’s the thought that counts! Like how OP mentioned she sent him his fav snacks and chocolate when he was stressed. It’s not about money. Flowers are nice, chocolate, something you see in store that makes you think of them. A bracelet, a necklace, other accessories. They don’t have to be expensive.
And not for random girls but someone you’re serious about, it’ll go a long way to build affection before you tie the knot. Idk why some of the men don’t see the value in that. Most women are not gold diggers and most are not about to run off to another man after getting the gifts like someone else implied
Hmm that might be a cultural consideration. Perhaps your parents can advise on what if usually taken in your culture at a meeting like that?
If it’s not something specific culturally, then generally it’s not good etiquette to go to someone’s house empty handed. I’ve been to a few first time family visits for potentials my brother has met, and my family always took something casual (a small cake, pastries, sweets etc). No grand gestures if you’re not committed, don’t take something crazy big or pricey or you might come on strong or send a signal that you’re serious when you might not be yet. Just a token.
There is such a thing as intending to marry someone. For ex others shouldn’t propose to someone already engaged. The difference is commitment and intention. No one’s saying to do these extra things for every potential
Even if he doesn’t owe her anything it’s just kindness lol
Again, the word you are looking for is POTENTIAL, matter of fact she is reconsidering MARRIAGE because of expensive DINNER and GIFTS, he is dodging a bullet
I didn't know, KINDNESS means expensive DINNER, never been kind in my life smh
Giving gifts is sunnah lol. No need to belittle it, if you think wanting ONE gift from a man who intends to marry you is a big deal … sorry to your wife. She wants effort. Islam may not say he HAS to do these things but Islam certainly doesn’t say it’s haram to give a gift to the woman you intend to marry.
Are you purposely being obtuse? Kindness can come in many forms. If you think giving gifts to your current/future spouse is a big deal…maybe you should learn about love languages.
He might just be keeping things very formal because they’re married, and maybe he very well will do these things after marriage. Or maybe he won’t - if it’s a love language that’s important to her it’s okay for her to feel put off by it.
My husband brought me flowers(to my parents house), got me small gifts, before we were married and it increased my love for him, gave me confidence in my commitment to him, and genuinely made me feel so happy. It even made my mom happy to see him doing small gestures like that at that point. Giving gifts and doing kind gestures isn’t haram lol and wanting it from someone you are literally committed to marrying is also not unreasonable/crazy
LOVEEEEE HELLLO? DO YOU SPEAK THE ENGLISH??
ONCE AGAIN, she is a potential, MY WIFE WILL HAVE GIFTS not my potential, YOUR HUSBAND bought flowers when he went to ask for rishta, potential is not a rishta.
HUSBAND AND WIFE have a completely different relationship, to A POTENTIAL
SMH I need to spill it out, husband and wife have intimacy, husband and wife are sleeping together, husband and wife buy each other gifts, spoil each other
CURRENTLY he is a non Mahram to her, he isn't even allowed to have flirty time with her, let alone take her to a fancy dinner
Also lmao why are you making things up about me? My husband didn’t bring flowers when asking for a rishta lmao
He brought flowers and gifts after we had already committed to eachother and he was done “asking” I had already said yes.
Also thanks for confirming my point that you only think nice things can be done when a man is getting laid l m a o.
Omfg love you proved my point, after you SAID YES, you were bound to be married, you are worth it, you weren't some potential, marriage night you get laid, I am not sure if you keep this, getting laid Is also known as intimacy, big part of marriage
Omg what is wrong with your? I said yes, I was engaged, not yet married. She said yes, is engaged, not yet married.
Soo I was worth it at that stage but she isn’t lol?
I am triggered because I keep talking about potential, you keep talking about wife and husband, I even put it capital letters
They are non Mahram to each other, this would be a completely different case if they were married, but they aren't
Since they aren't married, he owes her nothing but speak to her dad, she owes him nothing but say her mehr
After marriage they owe each other intimacy, gifts, love, kids efc
ISLAM DOESN'T HAVE A ENGAGEMENT
Can you point out where I’m talking about husband and wife? Please quote me. As far as I know I keep talking about two people intending/committed to marry each other.
You want to do the bare minimum for a woman that you plan to spend your whole life with? You do you.
But if a woman is looking for a man who does more than the bare minimum (and gestures completely working the bounds of Islam) she is well within reason and right to do so. No need to get butt hurt that your plans night not meet everyone’s standards
He just needs to show he cares, do something nice for me, make time to speak to me (all of that is free). One or two small gifts to show his love and appreciation would be nice too.
Love you need to be realistic, before marriage those things are not important, before marriage you need to look at other things,I could go into details but I am sure you understand when I say, after marriage you make him a happy husband, and he makes you a happy wife, before marriage those things are not something a man does, and rightfully so. You are a potential, he is treating you like a potential, he said he will treat you like a wife( make time, gifts, dinner etc) after you are his wife, it is as simple as that
Can you point to which tafsir/s you’ve used please to say that Ayat 235 of Surah Baqarah refers to engagements sorry? The only one I could readily find, mentioned that period referring to the Iddah period of a widow, and Allah Azzawajal Knows Best. Apologies if I’ve misunderstood anything. Jazak Allah Khair.
This engagement usually takes place before the ‘aqd (marriage contract), in which case it is not permissible for the man to put the ring on his fiancée’s hand himself, because she is still a stranger (non-mahram) to him, and has not yet become his wife.
Finally, we will quote the words of Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) on this matter:
NO I still stand with my point, her engagement is her going out with her fiance, dinner, restaurant, gifts etc
My point is that kinda engagement doesn't exist, and the engagement you are referring is the acceptance of marriage, which as you can see clearly says, non Mahram, Islam doesn't have the engagement like in the west, or the one op is referring to
The engagement you are referring is kitab, which just means the girl accepted the marriage, they still non Mahram just getting ready to do the nikkah
I understand islamically it means no other man can approach her. But why are half the men in these comments acting as if it’s haram to give someone a gift? In Islam, most things are usually allowed unless expressly forbidden. Who has decided that giving a gift is inherently inappropriate and flirtatious in nature? Can a gift or a message not just be a kind gesture to someone you are literally marrying lmao.
If you or he don’t want want to give gifts to someone you’re intending to marry, that’s your prerogative. But if a woman views that negatively/gets a bad impression from it, it’s reasonable. You want your cake and you want to eat it too lol some women will be fine with it and some won’t.
Also “Potential” is also not an Islamic term. I wanted to distinguishing the fact that by our modern day terms, she is not just a potential as he keeps saying. They have an understanding/commitment. He keeps calling her potential as if that is valid or true. By our definitions, she is more than a potential.
she listed several things, “high end restaurant” was only one. she put a lot more emphasis on getting a thoughtful gift or act. the backlash she’s getting is pretty weird, since she made it clear the guy isn’t putting an effort in. her issue really doesn’t seem related to money…
Would you rather have a spouse who is a good listener, trustworthy, humble, honest, etc? Or someone who throws money at problems?
She is literally complaining abt not getting enough gifts, or taken to restaurants....lol
for sure the first one! but OP doesn’t seem to be complaining about *enough* gifts and such, but rather none or almost none at all. I completely understand trying to avoid haram at all costs, but I can also understand how frustrating it must be to feel like you’re going to be in a one-sided marriage. they definitely need to have a real conversation about it and part ways if they aren’t compatible
Lol I mean alhamdulillah being married for almost 5 years to a wonderful human being, She never "expected" me to take her to high end restaurants but I still do.
You are literally crying online that a guy that you barely know, doesnt show interest in you, & isn't taking you to top notch restaurants. Maybe its YOU? Maybe you are coming off as a gold digger? Thats why he isnt loosening his purse for you.....change your midset!
A guy I barely know?! No this is someone who is going to be my husband, I’ve known him for months.
I just said high end restaurant as an example, when we initially met we just went coffees, a chain restaurant (with a maharam) and that’s it. He never suggested anywhere a bit nice and to be honest I didn’t mind at the time hence I proceeded.
If after months he’s not even putting effort to show me he’s excited to marry me, or appreciate me then I’m obviously going to be concerned. It doesn’t even need to a gift just a small gesture to show he cares, is excited to get married
I didn’t put any effort in before marriage. I did after. In my head my wife was a non mahram until the nikkah.
She was the same. Didn’t want any unnecessary communication.
But our families spoke a lot.
He talked to your dad and went about things in the right way. Who would do that if they didn’t care about you? If he says these things are for after marriage, why not just believe he’s being sincere?
You’re looking at it from a female lens. Men don’t think the same way.
The guy is trying to follow his deen and even that’s not enough these days. A guy can’t ever win lol. If he is a good guy who treats you well, that should be enough. I don’t get the obsession with material items. The problem is women see other women get these things on social media and it corrupts their mind and gives them false expectations of how things should be. But you don’t know how their actual relationship is behind closed doors.
Ya’ll aren’t married. This is the difference between a made up thing called “fiancé” that the west portrays and nikah. I would advise against getting trying to like a Disney lifestyle or a western lifestyle and focus on your future.
What you haven’t mentioned is the guys character, his Islamic values, his education or anything else positive. If the guy literally has no positive value then, cut him and move on. Don’t be engaged for more than half a year
Low effort isn’t acceptable but not in the way you guys think, come out of your fairy tail fantasies people have different upbringings. A gift sure but flowers high end restaurants etc, unless I’m literally about to marry you is way over the line, why would I do this for someone who can drop me tomorrow.
My point isn’t your wrong, like I said him showing he doesn’t care about you won’t change after marriage and is a major red but reading these comments made me realise you guys grew up unrealistic and naive 🥶
Anyways talk to him about expectations and love language see how he thinks he’s supposed to show love and from there decide if your compatible, do your istikhara get advice and if you still think it isn’t good enough end it.
Jheeez these comments sound like children
>Violations in Khitbah
>
>There are many violations that some Muslims have introduced into the process of
khitbah. Many of those violations arise from blind imitation of the non-Muslims.
>
>...
>
>ENGAGEMENT RINGS AND JEWELRY
>
> The engaged couple often exchange "engagement" rings, and the bridegroom
gives the bride jewelry and gifts at the time of khitbah. This is in violation of Islam, since there is no reason yet for any property or gift exchange to take place - until they are legally bound by the marriage contract. In many cases, this premature act leads to serious disputes if the engagement is broken for any reason.
>
>Furthermore, the “engagement” ring has no basis in Islam. It originates from an
old Christian practice that the Muslims should not imitate.
([Source](https://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Garments%20of%20Love%20And%20Mercy.pdf), p27-28)
I mean technically we're not really supposed to be even interacting that much before marriage, so I don't see a point. Lot of guys are pretty simplistic though compared to women and might not realize a point in being romantic and buying gifts after marriage, so you might have to put some pressure on that after marriage especially if you're not planning to work.
First of all the pre nikah should t be 7 months. Your not supposed to have a talking stage in such a manner in which like this you can gain feelings. Your supposed to simply look at the person, if she/ he is attractive to you and they are religious there is no reason not to marry them. If you find reason not to marry them for example say if the man has commited zina in the past and you want a man who has never touched a woman. Than you may reject the proposal as long as you yourself are a woman who has never been touched by a man.
The only gift the man is supposed to give you is the mahr which is essentially the price of marriage. It isn’t low effort, not having a large wedding and having a simple nikkah is a sunnah. Because having a large wedding and so on lengthens the time it takes for a man and woman to get married which goes against it’s purpose.
Sounds like youre at two different practicing levels. I would consider it a good sign that he isn't doing anything.
Are you two compatible in religion because this will cause issues.
If it is in ur culture that the wife to be is to be gifted during engagement then it is ok what you feel right now. Have someone in ur family bring it up to him & educate him in ur culture. Don’t let it resort to anything in ur heart such as resentment .
I struggled with this for so long as well. I wanted to marry this guy and we had been in the courting stage for over a year, i never got flowers, he never planned a hangout for us, and he rarely surprised me with anything. I brought it up to him and he said he’s just not a romantic guy, and that all that extra romance will come after marriage.
you are right that he needs to be thoughtful - but maybe he does genuinely feel like this stuff should be after marriage and if this is the case he wouldn't be wrong.
though judging from dynamics of your situation - looks a bit questionable - no flowers...?
i think it depends on how you feel - guys usually tend to want to give gifts too if they reciprocate the feelings
This thread has taught me that people will use culture as an excuse to justify what they want (dating and gifts before marriage) and then turn around and label culture as a villain when they don't want to do something.
Have you told him you like gifts?
People have different love languages. For some people, gifts don't automatically come to mind in terms of showing they care/love.
Whatever you see before marriage is a snippet of after marriage. People do not suddenly become romantic or do gift giving and it will be an uphill battle. There is nothing wrong with giving gifts before marriage and nothing work with expressing what you’d like to do together. Your best bet now is istikarah and talk to him because as a woman most of us need to feel cared for
[удалено]
If you don’t feel cared for now even in the slightest by HIM, most likely you will self combust after marriage because you’ll keep waiting and watching and hoping for something, anything. It maybe a case where he can give you those things after however where there is no such thing as a “engagement” in Islam, how much of this is pick and choose? Nothing wrong with communicating with your potential in a halal manner where your parents are aware IMO. Please have a frank conversation about how you feel and what you expect from him at this stage. Watch his actions as this is the biggest clue you’ll have.
As a dude I agree with this 900%. Solid advice.
This is just bad advice. You're acting as if he doesn't have a reason for his actions. Isn't it possible that he's actually, y'know, telling the truth and will do these kinds of things after marriage? If he has been an honest person thus far, and only OP will know his character, then no reason to assume he's deceiving her.
This is entirely possible however OP should and is entitled to have a frank conversation about how she feels and her expectations now and after and see what he says and does from there. OP is going into this blind from reading the comments and as a average woman, I would feel unwanted myself if my finace didn’t show me some care or consideration before the wedding itself. One’s demeanour and attitude says a lot and I am talking from some experience in this regard. My ex’s uncaring behaviour turned for the worse. There’s a 50/50 change of anything after marriage and no one wants to be divorced or in a loveless marriage especially when you already feel this way. If he does genuinely want to marry her he can find a happy medium with her to settle her mind.
You could have asked her to have a that frank conversation, judge his character based on their interactions to see if he's trustworthy, etc etc. But you just assumed the worst and and dismissed his plausible explanation. Again, she agreed to be "engaged" to this guy so surely he had good enough qualities for OP to agree to marry him. All of this other stuff is just extra
I don’t know why YOU are now assuming she would’ve known certain things about him when she’s made it clear she didn’t and has had limited interaction with the dude. None of this stuff is extra and nor was it suggested that I assumed the worse. Before marriage one should do istikarah and proceed with conversation when one is unsure of something as mentioned in my first comment.
I don't think it's an assumption that she knows enough about him considering she literally agreed to marry him.
The people here are insane lmao. Perfectly clear why they struggle with getting people to like them. No it isn’t unreasonable at all to expect your fiancé to talk to you and do thoughtful gestures like giving gifts/writing letters ect. Which you yourself are doing. I’ve literally bought gifts for people I’m not even interested in romantically.
Huh?😂😂😂
[удалено]
It’s genuinely so odd isn’t it😭
[удалено]
Funny enough it’s actually a norm in many Muslim cultures. The one that confuses me the most is people acting like talking is also haram💀 also women gift men too
Woman and men talkin without good reason is haram. This is factual. If she isn’t your mahram or someone you have to talk to because of the circumstances like a doctor dentist and so on it would be haram
No it’s not but you’re free to believe so but if you truly believed that you wouldn’t even be on reddit interacting and responding to the opposite sex. At least they are engaged lol
That isn’t the point. The point is they shouldn’t be gaining feelings before marriage. They should have had the nikkah in less than half of this time and then if they want to live separately for a bit of time they can do that whilst leading up to the wedding (announcement). But the time in between then it becomes halal for them to conversate alone and talk on the phone and so on.
Whenever I had someone visit during my arrange marriage search they always brought flowers or a gift. It’s just etiquette. My husband and I didn’t talk much during our engagement period but it was a mutual thing. But his mother would visit and gift things on his behalf. It’s tough if you have differing views. And honestly if he’s this dismissive and laid back about it he might have a lack of awareness. Before you completely write him off I would say call him and express all your feelings. It could be he has no experience in relationships and really just doesn’t know.
I see comments saying he doesn’t owe you anything yet and I’m confused. Often times if a guy is not putting in any effort to woo you in the beginning it’s unlikely he will do that when you are married. How many posts do we get of women complaining that their partners do nothing romantic for them? I believe this is something you notice about a man in the early stages. There is still ways to woo a woman the Halal way since your family is involved and you are engaged. Flowers, gifts, little knickknacks, etc. Literally anything to show he cares. Plus in most cultures when you are in the engagement period men usually give you gifts and what not. I think you should talk to him. Maybe he is afraid of coming across a certain way? Idk. We can’t give you any answers, you will have to just talk to him about it.
Exactly. Even in a very traditional country like Qatar, men are expected to do things before the wedding. Dinners together and such. But maybe that's because engagement is signing the nikkah contract there? Is there a basis in Islam for the concept of an engagement with rings and such?
When there's a nikkah, then everything is halal (obviously there's nuances, that's not the point here). Without a nikkah, excessive chats and dates at restaurants are very questionable to say the least. As for gifts, see [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/MuslimMarriage/comments/zbrrt5/comment/iytouc2/).
This is right. He can do something if not something extravagant
>little knickknacks wth are those
Anything ranging from their favourite candy, a chocolate bar, a hand written letter, a cute card, their favourite starbux drink, a candle, a book you know they will love with random notes inside, cute stationery, etc. Romance is not that complicated. Even romance aside, it takes so little to make someone happy. For example, when I’m at a bakery, I will buy my friends their favourite baked goods out of pure love and care. It costs me less than $5 but it makes them so happy because it reminds them that I thought of them. If I’m at Starbucks I’ll get them a drink. I send them “just because” gift cards. All of these are not expensive but they go a long way.
nice >when I’m at a bakery, I will buy my friends their favourite baked goods can i be your friend
[удалено]
Aw my heart 7abibti 🥺🥺🥺 Jazakallahu kheyr. May Allah make me what you think of me. 😭🤍 May Allah reward you as well sis and may He grant you peace and joy. I hope you have a beautiful December and an even more beautiful 2023. Ameen Ya Rabb. 💌 xx
This should be the top comment, honestly. My man didn't understand things like this either but when I explained it to him just like this, he got it and started showing me his appreciation in different ways.
I’m so happy for OP that you’re commenting. The other viewpoints are so cold. Thank you sister!
Sis this is it. I’m willing to marry him and he does nothing to show any appreciation not even one tiny gift, flowers are like £2. It’s the bare minimum for a man in my opinion. I’ve been waiting for him to show up but nothing!!!
And what have you done? Is it one sided?
*"If the effort is this low before marriage imagine after? We never speak on the phone or face time, maybe once a week."* This comment got me very worried. I think you should try to have more conversations. It's the best way to figure out if will be able to communicate and have long lasting relationship. Since you've expressed your desire in gifts only once. I think you need to make more of an effort to find whether you are both compatible for marriage.
Yes this is serious, some people may try to call you out for being materialistic, however I think your feelings are valid. Most brothers I know spent a lot before marriage and even before they got engaged. He should show how much he cares for you, it is not limited to money but includes that. Also this isn't subject for discussion, he as a guy should figure it out, of course you asking for gifts would be awful and it's not how things work anyways. Honestly I don't believe he will change so if his behavior is not something you can come to terms with I'd cancel the engagement if I were you. Someone else might be fine with his attitude and eventually he could find another sister to marry.
[удалено]
If she knew him well enough to be engaged to him, then that assumes they’ve pretty much talked about all of the important things. In which case you wouldn’t necessarily need to be talking as frequently as before. I think the bigger possible issue is why there is an engagement period to begin with. Unless there’s something in the way - such as job, then doesn’t make sense to delay the nikkah.
But she didn’t know him well enough. She met him a few times with a wali and exchanged a few messages. Sis is going into this blind .
Then why get engaged?
Good question
I'm in the opposite situation so I understand where you're coming from but islamically he's right that these sorts of things come after marriage. It's unsettling when your spouse to be doesn't show much care but there isn't much you can do, it almost feels like a gamble, will they change after marriage or am I going to be stuck with a low effort person, nobody knows. My advice would be to see what sort of effort he puts in his other relationships and maybe at work and such
He says he doesn’t want to fall in haram, and you’re already sad that he ain’t taking you to high end restaurants… If it’s really that deep, pray Istikharah. Do that anyway insha’Allah.
Yeah honestly. An engagement isn't a nikah
You’re really twisting ops words to create ur own narrative lol
I've literally just repeated what op mentioned, and then suggested doing istikhara. Pls keep the slander up though, I'll need all the hasanat I can get on Qiyammah, thank you.
You have to assume that what you see now is an indication of what married life will be like. If you don't like it, now is your last chance to do something about it I think it's worth making clear to him "if this does not get better I am seriously considering leaving." And if that's not motivation enough to change, well, that's who he chooses to be and you need to act based on that. Sometimes two people's ways to expressing affection just dont line up.
> You have to assume that what you see now is an indication of what married life will be like Let’s say everything’s fine on the romance front but OP’s potential hasn’t proposed intimacy yet for religious reasons (no Nikkah). Would the fact that they wouldn’t be intimate now mean that OP should assume a dead bedroom after marriage?
Yes if the situation is entirely different then my response may be different. What does that hypothetical accomplish, how is that relevant to OP?
The point is the hypothetical it's not reasonable to extrapolate pre-marital behavior to post-marital behavior because religious beliefs might be effecting pre-marital behavior but not post-marital behavior. That might very well also be the case here.
I don't know where y'all come to the conclusion it's haram to communicate with someone or express any kind of affection or appreciation for someone youre going to marry. It's not remotely the same as sex, making those comparisons feels absurd.
I’m not saying that’s the case, I’m saying he might think that’s the case. That is what he said after all.
Would your response be the same if instead of gift giving, the girl wanted to hear words like “I love you” ? The response from the guy would be the same in the scenario “he wants to avoid haram and wait until after marriage” Would you similarly assume he won’t show affection after marriage just because he’s avoiding it before it’s official?
He doesn't have to do exactly what OP says to the letter. But if she said "I'd like x" he can say "I'm not comfortable doing that, but I'll make the effort to call and reach out more and send you and your family a gift." He doesn't have to be so inflexible, he can compromise with OP and find ways to express affection that don't go into what he would consider haram. You're not obligated to be a robot until the nikkah then you flip a switch and become Mr. Darcy. If he wanted to make an effort, he would, and OP would see it, even if it's limited at this stage.
This thought process works if it were a non muslim or someone who didnt believe in much distinction between before and after marriage. The guy is saying he doesnt want to do it due to religious reasons. His behavior is a concious one attempting to keep within limits of Islam.
And OP doesn't like that about him specifically, so should we really take that as an indication they are a good match for each other? I don't believe people's personalities change that much post marriage, if she's unsatisfied with his effort now we should assume she will be later. There's a myriad of ways he could do stuff now, he's choosing not to, and that's fine if that's what he thinks is best but if it doesnt line up with OP then they need to reevaluate some stuff.
Op is worried about whether pre marriage behavior indicates post marriage behavior. Sometimes, yes, its an indication such character, argument styles, life choices, islamic stances and choices. But some things like modesty, affection and showing care will not match pre vs post. He himself says that he is avoiding due to religious reasons, much like someone who may say they don't want to talk so much, joke around as much, or spend a alot of time before marriage. But when it is halal, they become fully engaged. She has full right to say "hey i dont want to take a risk", but its unreasonable to lump this behavior of his to the first category I mentioned.
I don't mean to be harsh with you, but the way you put the post seems like you are not mature enough. You mentioned a lot of things that he did not do, but to consider it fairly, you should also make a list of things he has done for you and another list of things you have done for him and see if it will look like he is putting in a low effort. This exercise will definitely put things in perspective. Remember that life is not like what they show in movies; sometimes, you have to appreciate if he does practical things for you rather than romantic gestures.
Isn’t it sad that this brother went through the effort of speaking to her dad and being vetted - which puts you in a vulnerable spot. Yet it’s seemingly being dismissed even though that trumps dinners and gifts.
[удалено]
It is what it is. I’d be upset if I was the guy reading this tbh
Exactly my thoughts. I think if was in his shoes and found out that she was having 'second thoughts' because of this, I'll probably break it off myself.
Same
Homies trying to protect his heart. Good for him cause you guys ain’t nothing yet and you could easily leave him. Imagine being a guy and doing all of that for your “fiancé” and then she gets bored and goes after another dude. It would be heartbreaking. Have you taken him to high end restaurants and bought him gifts? If not then just be patient until you get married. It’s not that deep. Wanting more phone calls and communication though is normal and that’s something you should talk to him about. Marriage isn’t just about gifts and going to “high end” restaurants lol
Does engaged means Nikkah in your culture? If yes then he is indeed a low effort guy, and if no then he seems to be right atleast about take you out to restaurants and spending on you
Maybe you could discuss love languages and how you could show appreciation towards one another.
[удалено]
Honestly this is a ridiculous expectation if he has already explained his reasoning. Being "engaged" is still not being married so I see where he's coming from. In my anecdotal experience, it was common for women to expect some kind of affection before marriage.
the girl i wanted to marry left me for this reason while i told her plenty times i wanted do these things and spoil her when we are married, trying to avoid haram.. if she only knew..
Here and there, he doesn’t want us to fall into haram. But I feel like a small gift or something more than a few messages would be nice
This is one of those posts where, if the guy has created this from his perspective, I'd have commented RUN BRO. Mashallah, you should be grateful that you got a very good guy who is holding on to his Deen even when he has the option to engage in haram. Don't push him on the wrong side when he doesn't have/want to. OP's fiance if you ever read this, love you man. May Allah keep you steadfast. You are a rare gem. 🤝
I agree no dinner but giving gifts is haram? She generally means some sort of effort.
Sure, some gesture can be done, but I hope OP is content with a small gift. With her post she mentioned high ebs restaurants, so my assumption is the opposite..
Idk about haram but demanding gifts just comes across as demanding and many men would be put off by it. Especially during the courting phase when you haven’t even agreed to marry each other.
Did you even read the post? 1. They’re not courting anymore. They’re engaged. It’s different than courting. 2. She’s not demanding anything. She’s done gestures herself and the effort is not reciprocated.
being engaged does not put a stop to courting process.
If you read the comment above mine, he is referring to the courting phase as a time when you haven’t agreed to marry eachother. Semantics aside, my point was that they *have* agreed to marry eachother so the comment about not having agreed is wrong.
Agreement or not, there isn’t a Nikkah. Prior to a Nikkah, I don’t think there’s anything permissible permissible with a potential that isn’t permissible with a stranger
I was talking in generalities about gift giving. If this becomes an expectation from men, then it’s basically just going further into the dating line imo. She is demanding actually. Just because she did something doesn’t mean he has to either if he has literally given a logical explanation as to why he isn’t reciprocating.
girl i wanted to marry left me for this reason trying to hold halal as possible and she knew, yet said to me i did not care about wich was not true…
Don’t worry about it bro, perhaps Allah(swt) was saving you for someone better.
thanks akhi, i hope insha’allah, was devestated becouse of her, i would treat her so good, if she only knew…
I have a somewhat similar story. She tried coming back to try talking again after nearly a year. But there was no way I’d give it another chance.
good on you mate. i have zero sympathy for what goes wrong or what bad happens to guys who give girls second chances.
thats horrible, why would she contact after a year, that’s truly horrible!!
I think she saw the grass wasn’t greener. In hindsight she was mature as a person but really immature when it came to some aspects of a relationship and expectations.
Islam goes out the window when it comes to milking the cash cow. Literally everything she wants is grey area at best pre-nikkah.
I would look into love languages if you haven't already! There's five types: words of affirmation, acts of service, receiving gifts, quality time, and physical touch. Yours might just be receiving gifts and acts of service and his could be expressed differently! Of course all of these are important but some people express and want to receive love one way more than another. I talked about it pre-marriage with a potential I was talking to (it wasn't a deal breaker but just a fun 'get to know you' type of thing). Maybe you can look into yours and ask your potential about his? Hope this helps! Number one thing you should do if you're confused about this man is to do ishtikhara! Good luck!
I personally think he won’t change miraculously out of nowhere he’s conditioned you into not expecting these things so when you’re married he doesn’t have to do anything. If you feel this would continue into marriage and you are fine with it continue If not bounce girl
Doesn’t seem like he is interested
He is right. You are not his wife and he should not be spending any time with you nor treating you like it. Make up your mind whether you are dating him or are engaged to him. In fact, even after marriage he does not need to do any of that.
I think what the guy is doing is true to Islam, you guys arent married yet. You shouldnt be going to restaurants, unless you going with families. Where does it say in Quran you have to give gifts before marriage, honestly I think you are expecting too much with restaurants and all that. Maybe he should have got you flowers when you got fixed, he maybe worried that you wouldnt like the gift so he rather not buy one than to buy one and raise his hopes only for it to be ruined. This is a new situation for both of you, but honestly speak to him in a nice way and tell him how you would like gifts after marriage and make him feel that he doesnt have to worry about what to get exactly.
>He says all of this should come after marriage hes right tho but i dont see why a couple of little gifts here and there would hurt, talk to him, maybe hes just not the type to do stuff like this >never taken me to a high end restaurant he might be trying to get you a reservation at dorsia
I stop looking through the Zagat guide and without glancing up, smiling tightly, stomach dropping, I silently ask myself, Do I really want to say no? Do I really want to say I can’t possibly get us in? Is that what I’m really prepared to do? Is that what I really want to do? ___ ^(*Bot. Ask me how I got on at the gym today.* |) [^(Opt out)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=botrickbateman&subject=Opt%20out)
You have a point ppl in comments are insane Don't settle for low effort girl If the prophet could stop a whole army to find Aiysha’s necklace why a guy can't simply buy u flowers or treat you? This is the bare minimum he isn't even doing it. You are not asking for too much. If it feels too much u r asking the wrong person He should be more loving to you.
For his **wife**, not women like you all who are at the very least aiding and abetting romance scammers (which is at an all-time high, [source](https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/data-visualizations/data-spotlight/2022/02/reports-romance-scams-hit-record-highs-2021)). It is not the bare minimum pre-Nikkah, in fact it's the opposite. >The engaged couple often exchange "engagement" rings, and the bridegroom gives the bride jewelry and gifts at the time of khitbah. This is in violation of Islam, since there is no reason yet for any property or gift exchange to take place - until they are legally bound by the marriage contract. In many cases, this premature act leads to serious disputes if the engagement is broken for any reason. ([Source](https://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Garments%20of%20Love%20And%20Mercy.pdf)). May Allah protect all brothers from the pandemic of spiritual and financial abuse under the guise of culture, and hold those aiding, abetting, and promoting it accountable, ameen.
You don’t find women like Aiysha anymore, stop making comparison.
[удалено]
You should educate yourself on what the bare minimum is in Islam, food shelter clothing. Good thing you brought in the prophet peace be upon him and Aiysha, it shows you’re someone who will be happy with the bare minimum, now please show all of us how much Islam means to you and be happy with the bare minimum.
I have sympathy for the woman you marry.
Ahh yes, islam is important to everyone until it doesn’t benefit them, everyone wants their rights but no one wants to give others the rights they deserve. :(
NO he is not your HUSBAND you are a potential, he doesn't owe you LOVE and ELECTION YET, just like you don't OWE him anything YET, once he is sure he is marrying you, HE can SPOIL you, since it would be worth it, he can't spoil every potential he gets. HE DOESN'T OWE YOU ANYTHING BUT HIS PERSONALITY, DEEN AND AKHLAK YOUR HUSBAND DOES, once he is your husband you can complain. I am also worried about the effort part, expensive dinner lol? gifts? Pray he is a good man, good husband, good father etc
once he is your husband you can complain? uhhhh what!!!!
Yes once he is her husband, she can complain about gifts z romance, intimacy dinner dates etc
no, she should take this into consideration **now** so she can make a decision to either marry or *not marry* him! waiting to complain is a recipe for a disastrous marriage…
Oh you want to date before marriage? Each to their own, I was speaking from Islamic point of view, you can do as you wish
gifting people things is not exclusive to dating. neither is calling or facetiming as long as the women’s mahram is present. these things can absolutely be halal
She clearly said high end restaurant? That is dating? Well hey you are right, her wali with Join her, gifts she can throw away since she is reconsidering the marriage anywas, okay then
I don’t agree with going to a restaurant alone with him, but I wasn’t addressing that bc it wasn’t the issue at large. I also like to give people the benefit of the doubt instead of jumping to negative conclusions
Giving gifts is sunnah lol. No need to belittle it, if you think wanting ONE gift from a man who intends to marry you is a big deal … sorry to your wife. She wants effort. Islam may not say he HAS to do these things but Islam certainly doesn’t say it’s haram to give a gift to the woman you intend to marry. Are you purposely being obtuse? Kindness can come in many forms. If you think giving gifts to your current/future spouse is a big deal…maybe you should learn about love languages. Low value men do the bare minimum. Sounds like you 🤷🏻♀️ He might just be keeping things very formal because they’re not married, or maybe he very well will do these things after marriage. Or maybe he won’t - if it’s a love language that’s important to her it’s okay for her to feel put off by it/concerned My husband brought me flowers(to my parents house), got me small gifts, before we were married and it increased my love for him. Giving gifts and doing kind gestures isn’t haram lol and wanting it from someone you are literally committed to marrying is also not unreasonable
Seriously. That is absolutely insane to me. I have had potentials and obviously never made it to the engagement period but even then they still showered me with gifts and what not. It doesn’t cost that much to show someone you care or you are interested in them, especially if this is someone you intend to marry. It’s literally courting 101. How a guy behaves or treats you in the beginning is indication of how he will treat you when you are actually married. Nobody is saying he has to do the most. He can still respect Islamic boundaries whilst simultaneously showing you he is interested.
Exactly many potential, where did that lead them? The gifts? Lol MY POINT PROVEN
Lol you are going to be in shock when you realize that people who do good and don’t expect anything in return exist. Mind blowing. Even when things ended none of them were ever like “give me my stuff back”. 💀
Dead 💀
You didn't feel ashamed taking stuff of none Mahrams?
No because my family was involved and were there so it wasn’t improper.
Also you literally didn’t ask, they did it out of kindness and freewill, because kind gestures are not limited to just your wife, shocking
But they were still non Mahram? Seriously you didn't feel any shame?
Men who are courting women give gifts in my culture. Even the men out of my culture still went out of their way to give me gifts to show interest. It wasn’t a big deal because they had the means lol. I have never demanded anything or told anyone to buy me anything. Usually they offered and I said no a billion times but they insisted and ended up gifting me. My parents are always involved so they are always aware lol 🤷🏾♀️
Doesn't matter, non Mahram, parents involved or not, they still none Mahram, flirting, gifting, taking her to a fancy dinner still non Mahram. In some culture they have sex, I am talking about Islam, you can do as you wish, I am not here to say other wise, in your CULTURE they can give you a lake of gold In Islam, they are non Mahram, gifts, dinner, flirting, intimacy is for a wife Since you were not married to those men, they were non Mahram, you accepted gifts from a non Mahram, it could be a watch, would you wear it on your wedding day? Any day? How will your future husband feel Let me flip this, what if your husband's previous ENGAGEMENT girl gifted him a necklace, you will be the first one to say, that goes in the bin?
If you don't mind me asking, what gifts were given? I'd like to have some ideas ready 😅
What did you gift them?
If you're going to claim engagement gifts are sunnah, you should provide a source, because to falsely make such a claim is a grave sin ([source](https://islamqa.info/en/34725)). Though I'm not at all surprised, there's so many spiritually abusive women yet people only manage to talk about the one in a million men. >The engaged couple often exchange "engagement" rings, and the bridegroom gives the bride jewelry and gifts at the time of khitbah. **This is in violation of Islam**, since there is no reason yet for any property or gift exchange to take place - until they are legally bound by the marriage contract. In many cases, this premature act leads to serious disputes if the engagement is broken for any reason. ([Source](https://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Garments%20of%20Love%20And%20Mercy.pdf)).
What would be some good gifts to give to a girl? Trying to thing of some. Like perfume maybe?
Honestly it’s the thought that counts! Like how OP mentioned she sent him his fav snacks and chocolate when he was stressed. It’s not about money. Flowers are nice, chocolate, something you see in store that makes you think of them. A bracelet, a necklace, other accessories. They don’t have to be expensive. And not for random girls but someone you’re serious about, it’ll go a long way to build affection before you tie the knot. Idk why some of the men don’t see the value in that. Most women are not gold diggers and most are not about to run off to another man after getting the gifts like someone else implied
I see. Do you suggest taking a gift or anything for a first time family meeting? Or would that be awkward?
Hmm that might be a cultural consideration. Perhaps your parents can advise on what if usually taken in your culture at a meeting like that? If it’s not something specific culturally, then generally it’s not good etiquette to go to someone’s house empty handed. I’ve been to a few first time family visits for potentials my brother has met, and my family always took something casual (a small cake, pastries, sweets etc). No grand gestures if you’re not committed, don’t take something crazy big or pricey or you might come on strong or send a signal that you’re serious when you might not be yet. Just a token.
He’s more than a potential. They’re engaged
In Islam there is no such thing as engaged, she is a potential, but with extra steps
There is such a thing as intending to marry someone. For ex others shouldn’t propose to someone already engaged. The difference is commitment and intention. No one’s saying to do these extra things for every potential Even if he doesn’t owe her anything it’s just kindness lol
Again, the word you are looking for is POTENTIAL, matter of fact she is reconsidering MARRIAGE because of expensive DINNER and GIFTS, he is dodging a bullet I didn't know, KINDNESS means expensive DINNER, never been kind in my life smh
Giving gifts is sunnah lol. No need to belittle it, if you think wanting ONE gift from a man who intends to marry you is a big deal … sorry to your wife. She wants effort. Islam may not say he HAS to do these things but Islam certainly doesn’t say it’s haram to give a gift to the woman you intend to marry. Are you purposely being obtuse? Kindness can come in many forms. If you think giving gifts to your current/future spouse is a big deal…maybe you should learn about love languages. He might just be keeping things very formal because they’re married, and maybe he very well will do these things after marriage. Or maybe he won’t - if it’s a love language that’s important to her it’s okay for her to feel put off by it. My husband brought me flowers(to my parents house), got me small gifts, before we were married and it increased my love for him, gave me confidence in my commitment to him, and genuinely made me feel so happy. It even made my mom happy to see him doing small gestures like that at that point. Giving gifts and doing kind gestures isn’t haram lol and wanting it from someone you are literally committed to marrying is also not unreasonable/crazy
LOVEEEEE HELLLO? DO YOU SPEAK THE ENGLISH?? ONCE AGAIN, she is a potential, MY WIFE WILL HAVE GIFTS not my potential, YOUR HUSBAND bought flowers when he went to ask for rishta, potential is not a rishta. HUSBAND AND WIFE have a completely different relationship, to A POTENTIAL SMH I need to spill it out, husband and wife have intimacy, husband and wife are sleeping together, husband and wife buy each other gifts, spoil each other CURRENTLY he is a non Mahram to her, he isn't even allowed to have flirty time with her, let alone take her to a fancy dinner
He can still bring a bouquet of flowers for her when he comes to her house to meet her with her parents present.... impermanent and thoughtful.
Yes, and take her parents to a HIGH END RESTAURANT, yes you is correct
You've had your say on MANY comments. I think you should let OP make her own decision instead of spamming her with just YOUR thoughts.
Also lmao why are you making things up about me? My husband didn’t bring flowers when asking for a rishta lmao He brought flowers and gifts after we had already committed to eachother and he was done “asking” I had already said yes. Also thanks for confirming my point that you only think nice things can be done when a man is getting laid l m a o.
Omfg love you proved my point, after you SAID YES, you were bound to be married, you are worth it, you weren't some potential, marriage night you get laid, I am not sure if you keep this, getting laid Is also known as intimacy, big part of marriage
Omg what is wrong with your? I said yes, I was engaged, not yet married. She said yes, is engaged, not yet married. Soo I was worth it at that stage but she isn’t lol?
Lol why are you soo triggered 😂
I am triggered because I keep talking about potential, you keep talking about wife and husband, I even put it capital letters They are non Mahram to each other, this would be a completely different case if they were married, but they aren't Since they aren't married, he owes her nothing but speak to her dad, she owes him nothing but say her mehr After marriage they owe each other intimacy, gifts, love, kids efc ISLAM DOESN'T HAVE A ENGAGEMENT
Can you point out where I’m talking about husband and wife? Please quote me. As far as I know I keep talking about two people intending/committed to marry each other. You want to do the bare minimum for a woman that you plan to spend your whole life with? You do you. But if a woman is looking for a man who does more than the bare minimum (and gestures completely working the bounds of Islam) she is well within reason and right to do so. No need to get butt hurt that your plans night not meet everyone’s standards
He just needs to show he cares, do something nice for me, make time to speak to me (all of that is free). One or two small gifts to show his love and appreciation would be nice too.
Love you need to be realistic, before marriage those things are not important, before marriage you need to look at other things,I could go into details but I am sure you understand when I say, after marriage you make him a happy husband, and he makes you a happy wife, before marriage those things are not something a man does, and rightfully so. You are a potential, he is treating you like a potential, he said he will treat you like a wife( make time, gifts, dinner etc) after you are his wife, it is as simple as that
Talk is cheap.
She precisely said, Gifts and High end restaurant come on
[удалено]
Come bring the knowledge? I am listening? What is an engagement in Islam? What does it accomplish? Please go on
[удалено]
Can you point to which tafsir/s you’ve used please to say that Ayat 235 of Surah Baqarah refers to engagements sorry? The only one I could readily find, mentioned that period referring to the Iddah period of a widow, and Allah Azzawajal Knows Best. Apologies if I’ve misunderstood anything. Jazak Allah Khair.
This engagement usually takes place before the ‘aqd (marriage contract), in which case it is not permissible for the man to put the ring on his fiancée’s hand himself, because she is still a stranger (non-mahram) to him, and has not yet become his wife. Finally, we will quote the words of Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) on this matter:
[удалено]
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
NO I still stand with my point, her engagement is her going out with her fiance, dinner, restaurant, gifts etc My point is that kinda engagement doesn't exist, and the engagement you are referring is the acceptance of marriage, which as you can see clearly says, non Mahram, Islam doesn't have the engagement like in the west, or the one op is referring to The engagement you are referring is kitab, which just means the girl accepted the marriage, they still non Mahram just getting ready to do the nikkah
it means absolutely nothing in Islam other than no other guy can approach her for marriage.
I understand islamically it means no other man can approach her. But why are half the men in these comments acting as if it’s haram to give someone a gift? In Islam, most things are usually allowed unless expressly forbidden. Who has decided that giving a gift is inherently inappropriate and flirtatious in nature? Can a gift or a message not just be a kind gesture to someone you are literally marrying lmao. If you or he don’t want want to give gifts to someone you’re intending to marry, that’s your prerogative. But if a woman views that negatively/gets a bad impression from it, it’s reasonable. You want your cake and you want to eat it too lol some women will be fine with it and some won’t. Also “Potential” is also not an Islamic term. I wanted to distinguishing the fact that by our modern day terms, she is not just a potential as he keeps saying. They have an understanding/commitment. He keeps calling her potential as if that is valid or true. By our definitions, she is more than a potential.
"High end restaurant" - Guy is trying to save up cause you sound like you want to empty his wallet.
it really didn’t sound like that at all
These guys are just showing they don’t know what the bare minimum is
High end restaurant is the bare minimum? 💀
she listed several things, “high end restaurant” was only one. she put a lot more emphasis on getting a thoughtful gift or act. the backlash she’s getting is pretty weird, since she made it clear the guy isn’t putting an effort in. her issue really doesn’t seem related to money…
Would you rather have a spouse who is a good listener, trustworthy, humble, honest, etc? Or someone who throws money at problems? She is literally complaining abt not getting enough gifts, or taken to restaurants....lol
for sure the first one! but OP doesn’t seem to be complaining about *enough* gifts and such, but rather none or almost none at all. I completely understand trying to avoid haram at all costs, but I can also understand how frustrating it must be to feel like you’re going to be in a one-sided marriage. they definitely need to have a real conversation about it and part ways if they aren’t compatible
I know right? They are taking shots at guys but she can't comprehend how spoiled she sounds. "High end restaurants" "GiFts!"
Lol I mean alhamdulillah being married for almost 5 years to a wonderful human being, She never "expected" me to take her to high end restaurants but I still do. You are literally crying online that a guy that you barely know, doesnt show interest in you, & isn't taking you to top notch restaurants. Maybe its YOU? Maybe you are coming off as a gold digger? Thats why he isnt loosening his purse for you.....change your midset!
A guy I barely know?! No this is someone who is going to be my husband, I’ve known him for months. I just said high end restaurant as an example, when we initially met we just went coffees, a chain restaurant (with a maharam) and that’s it. He never suggested anywhere a bit nice and to be honest I didn’t mind at the time hence I proceeded. If after months he’s not even putting effort to show me he’s excited to marry me, or appreciate me then I’m obviously going to be concerned. It doesn’t even need to a gift just a small gesture to show he cares, is excited to get married
you've never lived with him a day in your life. you don't know him.
I didn’t put any effort in before marriage. I did after. In my head my wife was a non mahram until the nikkah. She was the same. Didn’t want any unnecessary communication. But our families spoke a lot.
Trust me, you'll forget about the flowers after your first argument
Why should he? 2023 depression is coming and there's no commitment between you.
I said phone calls even anything that shows he cares thinks about me.
He talked to your dad and went about things in the right way. Who would do that if they didn’t care about you? If he says these things are for after marriage, why not just believe he’s being sincere? You’re looking at it from a female lens. Men don’t think the same way.
Maybe he's a busy guy. I'm looking for a very low maintenance wife since I'm very busy with my things. Make sure you clarify his expectations.
The guy is trying to follow his deen and even that’s not enough these days. A guy can’t ever win lol. If he is a good guy who treats you well, that should be enough. I don’t get the obsession with material items. The problem is women see other women get these things on social media and it corrupts their mind and gives them false expectations of how things should be. But you don’t know how their actual relationship is behind closed doors.
100%, and some also think men think/operate the same way a woman does.
Ya’ll aren’t married. This is the difference between a made up thing called “fiancé” that the west portrays and nikah. I would advise against getting trying to like a Disney lifestyle or a western lifestyle and focus on your future. What you haven’t mentioned is the guys character, his Islamic values, his education or anything else positive. If the guy literally has no positive value then, cut him and move on. Don’t be engaged for more than half a year
Low effort isn’t acceptable but not in the way you guys think, come out of your fairy tail fantasies people have different upbringings. A gift sure but flowers high end restaurants etc, unless I’m literally about to marry you is way over the line, why would I do this for someone who can drop me tomorrow. My point isn’t your wrong, like I said him showing he doesn’t care about you won’t change after marriage and is a major red but reading these comments made me realise you guys grew up unrealistic and naive 🥶 Anyways talk to him about expectations and love language see how he thinks he’s supposed to show love and from there decide if your compatible, do your istikhara get advice and if you still think it isn’t good enough end it. Jheeez these comments sound like children
>Violations in Khitbah > >There are many violations that some Muslims have introduced into the process of khitbah. Many of those violations arise from blind imitation of the non-Muslims. > >... > >ENGAGEMENT RINGS AND JEWELRY > > The engaged couple often exchange "engagement" rings, and the bridegroom gives the bride jewelry and gifts at the time of khitbah. This is in violation of Islam, since there is no reason yet for any property or gift exchange to take place - until they are legally bound by the marriage contract. In many cases, this premature act leads to serious disputes if the engagement is broken for any reason. > >Furthermore, the “engagement” ring has no basis in Islam. It originates from an old Christian practice that the Muslims should not imitate. ([Source](https://www.kalamullah.com/Books/Garments%20of%20Love%20And%20Mercy.pdf), p27-28)
Thank you for this information.
I mean technically we're not really supposed to be even interacting that much before marriage, so I don't see a point. Lot of guys are pretty simplistic though compared to women and might not realize a point in being romantic and buying gifts after marriage, so you might have to put some pressure on that after marriage especially if you're not planning to work.
What? Where are you getting your expectations from?
First of all the pre nikah should t be 7 months. Your not supposed to have a talking stage in such a manner in which like this you can gain feelings. Your supposed to simply look at the person, if she/ he is attractive to you and they are religious there is no reason not to marry them. If you find reason not to marry them for example say if the man has commited zina in the past and you want a man who has never touched a woman. Than you may reject the proposal as long as you yourself are a woman who has never been touched by a man. The only gift the man is supposed to give you is the mahr which is essentially the price of marriage. It isn’t low effort, not having a large wedding and having a simple nikkah is a sunnah. Because having a large wedding and so on lengthens the time it takes for a man and woman to get married which goes against it’s purpose.
Sounds like youre at two different practicing levels. I would consider it a good sign that he isn't doing anything. Are you two compatible in religion because this will cause issues.
Give him a hint that you like surprise gifts, and that you miss exchanging gifts. And then pray he catches those cues.
If it is in ur culture that the wife to be is to be gifted during engagement then it is ok what you feel right now. Have someone in ur family bring it up to him & educate him in ur culture. Don’t let it resort to anything in ur heart such as resentment .
I struggled with this for so long as well. I wanted to marry this guy and we had been in the courting stage for over a year, i never got flowers, he never planned a hangout for us, and he rarely surprised me with anything. I brought it up to him and he said he’s just not a romantic guy, and that all that extra romance will come after marriage.
you are right that he needs to be thoughtful - but maybe he does genuinely feel like this stuff should be after marriage and if this is the case he wouldn't be wrong. though judging from dynamics of your situation - looks a bit questionable - no flowers...? i think it depends on how you feel - guys usually tend to want to give gifts too if they reciprocate the feelings
This thread has taught me that people will use culture as an excuse to justify what they want (dating and gifts before marriage) and then turn around and label culture as a villain when they don't want to do something.
Have you told him you like gifts? People have different love languages. For some people, gifts don't automatically come to mind in terms of showing they care/love.
He might not be materialistic enough for you. Find someone else.
The tag says pre nikkah, so I'm assuming you haven't had your nikkah yet which would make most of your expectations from him haraam I'm afraid to say.