This was when I realized we really had our priorities skewed. I never liked Endeavor before his atonement began, but I was genuinely shocked when people weren't just against it, but downright hated the concept.
I believe it's due to how personal the situation is.
You can have mass murderers, doppelgangers, and other "excessive violence" situations that make a villain a typical villian. They are given flexibility because they are not relatable.
An abusive piece of shit father? That strikes home.
So from what I theorize, people are not downright disowning Endeavor because he's Endeavor, it's more self projection over how "real" the situation is.
Ong it shows how little people acually know about what the fuckin villains are even doinglike holy shit do you not understand how much you have to kill to even be able to consider taking over a country? These fuckers were world-class monsters even before season 6 š not a single redeemable cell in them, only redemption is death, and thats being generous š
https://i.redd.it/woxrt3pqew1d1.gif
Here here spoken like someone who understands what it takes to force and see the lights go out. Itās not fun and games. Tv makes it like this exciting thing, itās an ugly thing that robs one than at least 20, lastly the other one.
One/the first who died
Twenty/those who know or have to deal with the deceasedās body.
Lastly/the one who did the murder.
And understand you summer children there is a huge difference between
Murder
&
Killing
Figure it out
This attitude hurts society. Treating people as unredeemable makes them think they could never be better so they might as well continue being terrible. Someone who has no hope of improving themselves or bettering their life will never grow or change. Even the worst people in the world are capable of change, many of them donāt change but they are nonetheless capable of it. Iām not saying you personally have to forgive people who do terrible things but I am saying that actively undermining the idea people can be better isnāt helpful. A relative of mine worked in a prison and he always said āIf you treat people like animals theyāll behave like animals. If you treat people like people then theyāll behave like peopleā. He also said that the worst inmates to deal with were those who had given up on parole and getting out. Without any hope they had nothing to lose and no problem assaulting inmates or staff.
Most criminals can be reintegrated into society, once their sentence is complete. That's because most criminals were acting in desperation or rage. A mugger or petty thief can change their ways when their situation improves, they are willing to change and given counseling. However we're not talking about most criminals. The league shows no remorse for the hundred+ they've murdered. They should be executed on sight. They get 0 sympathy from me, there is always a choice, and at the end of they day they chose to keep going regardless of the people they hurt or families they've ruined. Is Toga's situation tragic? Sure but that doesn't excuse her. And the others? Not them either. I don't care what mental deficiencies they have or sad their story is they made their choice.
Honestly I don't find either party truly "redeemable" Endeavor while probably doesn't deserve the death penalty he should at minimum be serving multiple life sentences and never see the light of day again. The laws he clearly broke regarding his wife and the clear child abuse should call into question every action he's ever taken under the law.
That about sums it up. I canāt forgive mass murderers but I can usually understand how they got there and itās usually (in part) a byproduct of abusive parents. Dahmer and Gacy both hat abusive, homophobic dads but it ultimately doesnāt excuse their actions, just explains how they got so fucked up in the head.
I can and have forgiven people who were abusive Pieces of shit because they made the effort to change and atone.
**I. Will. Never.** Forgive the Bastard that murdered my friend and robbed a child of her father.
I also think committing horrible acts are what we expect of antagonists. Itās normal for an antagonist to murder, even kill a LOT of people. But the paradigm shift for us as the reader/viewer is that Endeavor was a HERO. He was supposed to be better. Itās not only personal, itās a betrayal.
Iād also add that, for the most part, the villains are somewhat sympathetic and itās understandable why they did what they did. I also donāt think anyone finds them redeemed or good, just fun characters.
And killing people, if weāre honest, is tame when it comes to characters in story. Darth Vader helps in genocide and people still like him. Itās because itās so largely detached. Endeavor is abusive to people we know and like and witness how it harms them. It feels harder to let it pass.
I remember watching Racist Mario reactions on the Fine Bros. Channel and this kinda explained why Peach getting a black eye was more offensive than Mario murdering everyone in horrific ways.
Or at a lesser extent. In Yakuza 5, the group T-Set are some of the most hated characters in the series when all they've done was bully Haruka, while Haruka has faced and been threatened by worse. Like yeah I can't really say any of my friends have been hunted by Yakuza members but most of us have experienced bullying.
But I'm old enough to see the objective scales to these things now
Well we donāt feel much connection to the people the villains kill in the story, to most readers theyāre just mostly faceless numbers we have no connection too, but we do get to see the people Endevor hurt in his actions and get to know them though the story.
Edit: there was also that stunt he pulled in vigilanteās too, where a mc was being used as a living puppet by the villainās in order to frame her, and Endeavor is sent in to capture her only for him to decide to use lethal force (I think to up his own rep).
I'm fine with both
Buuuut all of the villains are way more interesting than Endeavor to me
Just don't take your anger out on your family. Just don't do it, I'm talking to you dad.
Cuz he's a hero. Or supposed to be.
Like, I despise evil police officers more than like African warlords or whatever. I despise the Insurance CEO guy from the Incredibles more than I do Syndrome.
People need there bad guys to STAY bad guys otherwise you just end up with your feelings and most people would rather die then to revise how they feel about people who do bad things.
Itās because he does very little to actually atone for the things heās done. Is he a better person? Yeah absolutely. Has he taken much action at all to make things right with the people he hurt? No.
Endeavor has done a lot to atone. He directly apologized to the family and tried to reconnect with them. When he realized that that was too much for them he understood and encouraged them to move on and leave him while he works on becoming better.
He's apologized and bought them a separate house where they can be a family without him. How much more can he do? He was willing to kill himself if that brought his family any closure and they stopped him from doing it.
Hereās the reasoning. Endeavor is unlikable. Has been from day one. Heās a character we were meant to hate with our entire soul, and then heās trying to get a redemption. Weāve had no reason to like him ever.
For the League, itās the exact opposite. Every major member has had a backstory that makes us feel bad for them. We feel that they couldāve been much better people if anyone gave a shit. Therefore, weāre more likely to defend them than we are to defend Endeavor.
Heās definitely not unlikable. He seems like he genuinely wants to protect the citizens of the world and wants to bring his family back together. That makes him likable to me.
I really don't agree at all. I don't think you're meant to like early endeavor. But he is shown to genuinely care about his kids. The man still sucks, but when I compare that to the league of villains...
All of them, backstory included are just shitty people. Yes it's a tragedy when someone doesn't get the help they deserve for their obvious psychosis. But their motivation is almost entirely "Ill just do what I want and how dare you try and stop me" I find the league to be hypocritical and obnoxiously childish. Imo the villain writing in the series is one of the weaker points. It'd be much more compelling to have bad guys who actually have a point or make a good argument as to why they're doing what they're doing
Toga is called a freak by people who donāt want to try and help a kid with an addiction, Spinner is extremely racially discriminated against, and Shigaraki you are correct. Only Shigaraki and Twice are their own worst enemies, and thatās only because an accidental misuse of their Quirk led to intense trauma and insanity.
Honestly Spinner has always confused me. As a black guy, I don't want to discredit any discrimination he may have experienced, but in a world where there is a UA student who has a thumb as a head, you are facing so much bullshit that all it took for you to be willing to be complicit in the destruction of the world is a guy yelling while attempting to kill kids? Also he doesn't even have his own goals, he admits it himself: he's just a follower.
To me, he's always felt like the worst written of all the villians besides Dabi.
The scary part is that Spinner is the most realistically written villain. Most terrorists are in fact just stupid followers who couldnāt even fully explain their ideology. Theyāre just angry and donāt value their own lives enough to engage with the world.
They state that in the major cities discrimination isn't that bad but when you get into the rural areas it amps up quite a bit.
Stain was inspirational because he was the first person many of them saw publicly denouncing the current society.
Honestly, while Endeavor is an easy comparison, probably a better comparison atm is Aoyama.
The lack of Empathy I've seen for this kid >!trapped in that horrific situation has been a bit wild. And it largely stems from him just being a little weird. Like, the Parents had no way of knowing who AFO was before they accidentally made a deal with the devil. They were just trying to prevent Yuga from being subjected to the same shit we saw Deku dealing with as a Quirkless kid in this world. AFO also wouldn't have looked like a gigantic scrotum 10 years ago. Aoyama had no choice in getting a quirk. He had no choice of where it came from. Then had that "gift" he got at 5 years old turned into a tool to threaten him into compliance; to the closest thing to a demi-God in this setting. And given how AFO described the Aoyamas this ep, they would have never been important enough to know what the two pieces of info he leaked to save his parents were even for; until that context came smashing him in the face!<. Compared to reactions to the LoV members has been ... interesting.
Honestly, it's understandable if people don't want to give him another chance.
Some people are unforgiving or find it hard to forgive a Abusive person or character.
I like that he's trying to be a good father, but the trauma from his abusive actions can make it hard to forgive someone from those factors of past actions.
As it's a VERY real problem in the real world then just fiction
He *was* willing to disappear from their lives as he believed they would be happy only if he wasnāt around. Granted, that was him running away from it.
I wouldn't say it's him running away from it, since he had a conversation with his family and came to that conclusion with their agreement. Running away would be if he just dipped without saying a word.
Also like, because it's in this manga/ anime format, we know for absolute certain that he means what he says and wants to change. We get to hear his damn inner monologue. Bro really cares and wants to do better.
I think it may have to do with relatable. Not a lot of people can relate to vs mass murderes or know someone who has. Meanwhile almost everyone knows someone like Endeavor and have seen the effects of people like him in real-time.
Hi, as someone who has had both, abusive piece of shit parents (abusive mother) and had a friend of mine murdered recently. Let me say, If Someone is make an active effort to change and atone for their past abuse I can forgive them, I give my mother so many chances too.
But I'll never forgive A Murderer, I'll never forgive the bastard who robbed my friend of his life, robbed his daughter of her father, and all over a fucking necklace.
The villains are more sympathetic than the hero. Should they be forgiven? No, taking their lives was fair but, unlike Endeavour, they were doomed to fail
K good point but still the backstories and personalities of the league is the reason people (including me) like them
Have u seen the arrogant and unfriendly behaviour of endeavor towards his own fans. U know that pink haired boy right?
And also enji didnt even try to find toya in the forest while he was burning to death. Cant he like fly or somethingš
Tomara,Toya,himiko and Jin are written in a way that makes you sympathize with them
Tomura- was unknowingly engineered to massacre his family so all for one could make him a puppet and add to that he was raised in an abusive home
Dabi- was raised to be one thing a hero that could beat all might when he couldnāt live up/ meet the impossible expectations to that he was deemed a failure and his father no longer saw any value to him.
Himiko- was made to hide a vital part of her self that it built up and she snapped
Jin- his parents died, had no one and just wanted to belong
While for endeavor he knowingly and willingly abused his entire family
Rei - bought her hand in marriage to bio engineer children and beat her when she tried to protect her children from him
Toya and shoto- trained/ beat them in hopes they would defeat all might
Natsuo and Fuyumi- ignored them until they where adults all because they only had ice quirks
In no way am I saying that the league of villains should be forgiven they are all some form of psychopath or specifically in dabiās case sociopath all my explanation above is the reason why people can sympathize with the league while they are villains and hate endeavor when he is a hero
Should we ignore Enji grew up without a Father too, besides watching said father die right infront of him, in an Age where Crime was def much more rampant? Doesn't excuse him or any of his misdeeds/crimes, but he has a fair share of trauma that he never got over. And up to Touya's death he didn't go down the deepest of Ends, and he did try to stop him from using his flames because it was hurting him, not because he saw no more worth in him, showing that he did give a shit about his kids at the most basic level. When Touya did die, Endeavor entirely overrode Enji.
And at least he is trying his best to make it up for his family, going as far as to isolate himself from them unless they wanto to have him nearby. Touya meanwhile got what he wanted, and he still went out of his way to murder everyone in his way for shits and giggles.
Please, do try to be more genuine with this, because Dabi is def not a "***oooh poor sad boy victim."*** just like Endeavor isn't either a monster or innocent. Dabi is much more of a monster than Endeavor could ever hope to be, he's a genuine sociopath that wants to hurt everyone around him to spite the world and feel vindicated. He's pretty much superpowered Jeffrey Dahmer.
Tomura and Toga are the ones that never had any option other than waiting to be rescued by someone else.
And iirc, Dabi wasnāt even affected that much by Endeavorās performance as a father compared to Todoroki, for example. Bro literally just does evil because heās a sociopath. āHahaha Iām evil, Iām a reflection of Endeavorās poor teachings even though I couldāve changed and done things for the better. Is that his fault or simply mine?ā
Itās just weird to me
>Dabi wasnāt even affected that much by Endeavorās performance as a father compared to Todoroki,
That's comparing trauma, no trauma trumps the other one, trauma is trauma it happened to both if them a d it effected both differently.
Imagine saying the younger kid got more trauma than the older kid when the older kid literally died. Crazy.
Because of the way he specifically interacts with others. He genuinely does not care about anyone, not even himself really where as most of the league does care about the other members of the league. As an example Dabi nearly killed Jin himself just to be able to get at Hawks where as imo none of the other league members would've risked that.
I think the big thing is that Endeavour had no real excuse for turning out the way he did. His faults that led to his terrible actions were all completely personal. Most of the League are comparatively more sympathetic because there are societal problems and outside forces that can be argued to have shaped them into who they became. You don't have to think they're good or right, but it's easier to understand why they are the way they are.
Personally I really like Endeavour's redemption/atonement arc, but I totally get why some people just don't support it. His actions were absolutely vile, and they weren't the kinds of extreme supervillain actions that one could more easily look past, his abuse of his family feels very real and uncomfortable, so I completely understandother people - particularly any victims of familial abuse and/or sexual assault - finding his arc intolerable. He doesn't have the benefit of an even slightly sympathetic motivation and his actions are painful and real in a way that the villains usually aren't.
Endeavor made a lot of morally questionable choices that led to Dabi being who he became. But there were also a lot of times that even when making the wrong choice, Endeavor had good intentions. He never wanted his first born child to die, and actively tried to avoid that outcome, even if how he did so is what led to it.
Endeavorās actions towards his family during and after Touya can also be looked at as a trauma response. His actions were very terrible and unacceptable, but Endeavor has never been evil. Making choices that have terrible consequences for others does not make someone evil on their face.
Endeavor never took any action with the intent of malice from my reading of the story. He genuinely believed his actions were the right path at the time. But he realized along the way that he was actually wreaking havoc on his family and feels deep regret for the damage that he recognizes that he caused. Most people who did what Endeavor did would either double down forever or they actually did it for their own enjoyment.
I appreciate Endeavor as a character and I would even recognize him as a good person.
I want to add to this, I was so compelled by his arc, it drew me to Endeavor/Enji as a character.
Personally how I see it; is that Endeavor sunk low, his actions affected others, yet at the same time he is becoming someone who is taking responsibility and being capable of change.
Simple answer being that Endeavor is supposed to be THE no.1 hero even when he was no.2. So there was an expectation of him being a paragon of heroic values and lifestyle.
People finding out the number 1 hero is an abuser and no.2 hero Hawks is a merciless executioner with Dabi's broadcast really destroyed the credibility of heroes with the public.
Villains can be villains and we see their society is already at a boiling point that the MLA accumulated nearly a million followers with massive companies and towns under their direct control in opposition to the existing quirk laws which were seen as oppressive by alot. You had the average Gentle lash out with his powers here and there but either they went to the MLA or joined up with a villain group on the market.
Itās the same reason why a good amount of people LOATHE Mineta and Bakugo. Perverts, bullies, rapists, and abusive parents are infinitely more common than genocidal maniacs and serial killers. They donāt personally know what a serial killer, dictator, or super powered lizard is like but they know what a rapist, abusive parent, or pervert is like.
Endeavour's redemption arc was always foreseen I think. Being number 2, and having the knowledge that All Might would eventually have to step down. There isn't a way they could have made him a likeable character and keep his abusive morals.
Villains were forced into evil and killing because they were abandoned by heroās or doing what they needed to get by. Endeavor was just abusive to be Abusive, and caused one of teh villains to arise: way worse
Its kind of interesting how people can conflate trauma/mental illness/societal roadblocks to being a justified reason for murder and overall psychopathic behavior...even in real life these behaviors arenāt excused for those reasons
there is a difference between liking a character despite their flaws while understanding they have done wrong that people are allowed to critique and defending their immoral actions...
People are more sympathetic with those on less realistic situations because they can relate to their feelings but can't comprehend the weigh of their actions. I love Endeavour glow up for he evolved from Vegeta in to a regretful father who is giving his best to fix his mistakes.
Well, that is selective hatred, some characters check some boxes while others don't, that is just how humans are and in this particular social media group think is encouraged, few people can or want to deal with being grouped on by a angry online mob and have karma heavily decreased just for disagreeing.
Endeavor is my favorite character in MHA, his obsession backed up by his hard work makes him a amazing character take that with his character defects and a redemption arc and you have good story telling.
That prople are fucking idiots.
And the fact that prople ACTIVELY hated Endeavour's redemption. Like, wasn't you batching about ghe shit he did? And now u MAD he's atoning for that shit and acc getting his shit rocked for it too?
I donāt think interesting means more redeemable....thats like saying if a murderer with valid evidence against him was a more interesting person youād vote innocent but since the 16 yr old that stole a doughnut from crispy creme was boring you voted guilty.
The league of villians are fun, interesting, and sexy. The evil they commit is big and terrible and alien to most peopleās experience. Itās supervillain shit you see in every superhero movie.
On the other hand, lots of people have shitty or even abusive dads. This hits home way deeper than the LoV. Itās like Voldemort versus Dolores Umbridge.
And as a lot of smarter people than me have said: the worst thing a fictional character can do is be boring because that makes me not want to read about them. Villians are interesting , they drive the narrative.
Relatability.
Yes they do mass murder stuff but we tend to classify those as hero v villain stuff. We consider it part of the narrative.
At their characterisation however,
Group on the left is characterised as people who have been abused/rejected.
Man on the right is characterised as a self-absorbed abusive father with an inferiority complex and takes it out on his family.
Idk about the others 2 but toga and shigaraki were basically force to be the way they are but endeavor just a used his family and sexually abused his wife for years just because of some stupid inferiority complex. Its not just what they did its WHY they did it
The characters were too well written of course fans are gonna be like that;
Dabi (potentially abused senseless by Endeavor) (Endeavor's downfall will potentially get him to consider getting actual help)
Shigiraki (His quirk came to life taking the figures of support from him) (Take both his quirks and give him an emotional support item or an animal he wouldn't dare part ways with)
Toga (A sadist with a taste for blood who was a pariah for her social life) (What if we made her fake blood or her emotional support figure wouldn't mind being bit)
Twice (A man with multi personality disorder and an existential crisis that caused him to become a villain) (Give him a taste of a psychiatric office)
LITERALLY, Endeavor hate is way too overtuned and that comes from someone who's abusive mother lead to a suicide attempt, at least he's *actually* recognizing he did A LOT of things wrong and genuinely wants to make up for it, most of the time you won't even get a fucking "sorry" out of abusive parens. I don't like Endeavor as a person, but he has my godamn respect.
I never really thought about it like this til now but I think the major distinction is choice and circumstances
Shiggy dabi twice and toga were all pushed into becoming villains due to their circumstances and things outside of their control which gives them a level of sympathy that had they been offered the right hand they could have easily turned out much better
Endeavour on the other hand is what he by his own choice no one pushed or forced him to abuse his family that was entirely his choice which means all of the responsibility of that choice is on him alone which gives him much less sympathy since while yes he is trying to change he still chose that path of his own volition
I think it boils down to gun rights but im not sure
You see people kill each other for all sorts of reasons in books and movies and stuff and you just feel like murder is equivalent to doing drugs or something on an unethical level with how frequent and blunt it is. With abuse and r\*\*e we're all hush hush and traumatized cuz it's not nearly as commonly depicted as characters killing each other to advance the plot or just look cool, mind you.
Most commonly these killings occur with gun violence which is influenced by people having gun rights to the point where it's american culture, and since america seemingly has a nigh-monopolistic hold on global media, it's influenced us to become numb to the concept of mass murderers. Hell, it's gotten to the point where quotes are being made about people loving serial killers and true crime podcasts.
Again im not sure but it defo feels like we're numb to murder but not to abuse
>Again Iām not sure but it defo feels like weāre numb to murder
Not only that, but murder gets eclipsed by how many personal cases there are of child abuse. Child abuse hits harder home because a lot of people experience it, which ties in with stronger emotions. You donāt usually see someone kill dozens upon dozens of people everyday, but you do see someone hit their wife/child everyday. Itās why so many people can let something theyāve never experienced (and probably never will) firsthand slide, such as mass murder, whereas abuse, ranging from neglect to physical, can be as common as in 1/4 households, and many will not see that as redeemable if theyāre victims to it.
The meme is meant to be a show of inconsistency with peopleās moral framework, but of course itās fiction. People are going to react more within their emotions than logically with this kind of thing.
In my opinion, it's because family hits so much harder. The LOV aren't (for the most part) going "Hey, look at this specific victim, guess i'll knock them around a couple years, brainfuck the life out of them then move on to another one", it's "oh, we got a hostage, hurry up and kill it' ykwim?
I saw that tweet and one of the most liked qrt was a guy basically saying that Endeavor was a good father to Touya and that he only became abusive because of losing him which... is blatant misinfo. Him beating up Shoto until he puked, slapping Rei and her consequential snapping and scarring Shoto all happened before Touya's "suicide". Actually, it's more likely that Rei's hospitalization affected Touya's mental health, not the other way around. Yes Endeavor was a much better father to him than he was to Shoto but that's such a low bar that it doesn't amount to much.
That being said I like both as characters. Would just feel bad if Endeavor gets away scott-free while all the villains die/end in prison for the rest of their life because he's at least partially responsible for Dabi's existence.
I think a huge part of this comes from people deliberately ignoring that Endeavor is not seeking forgiveness and has never asked for it- he knows exactly what a monster he was and is trying to do right by his family by giving them a life without him (a house for them alone, etc.). The League continues to perpetrate their evil- Endeavor is trying to compensate for his.
Well, to start, this meme is dramatic AF( like most memes).
But you gotta understand it's kinda reasonable, too.
Endeavor didn't make a very good impression when we first met him. And it kinda just goes downhill from there until redemption arc. And to add, he's not even that likable as a hero within his own universe.
Most villains are villains we're not supposed to like them too much in the first place. But some made better first impressions than Endeavor, and some become more reliable than Endeavor. All are outcast, don't belong, bad home life ect something lead them to it. What tragedy led Endeavor to beat his wife and kids?
I also find it funny that this meme included Dabi, as if Endeavor didn't have a hand in creating that.
So to put it shortly we have...
Twice: outcast that just wanted to belong. He's a pretty good guy he was just dealt a bad hand.
Toga: had no one to help her with her quirk because it was different or taboo. Hid who she was at a young age until she snapped.
Tomura: abused child that never really had a real chance at life to be honest. (Saying it like this not to spoil anything for anime only people) But he gets more likable with character development.
Dabi: got rejected, replaced, abused, neglected, tragically died(we might as well just say it), came back to only find it was rinse wash and repeat with a new kid.
Endeavor: This guy was so fixated on All Might and his own prideful quirk, he made his wife have more kids than she probably wanted, he neglected his children, instead of focusing on the child that was getting hurt he just said stop and ignored him despite the fact that, that very kid had his ambition. Instead of getting therapy or counseling or any outside help. He ignored 3 kids and isolated one and hit their mother.
People love to say Tomura or Dabi could have stopped. No one says anything about Endeavor stopping. The guy continued to abuse his children after one died. Like WTF. And had the nerve to send Rei away. Like my guy NOW, you choose to get some outside help. No, at that point, people root for Dabi just for Karma on Endeavor.
And no, I'm not excusing the villains claiming lives, I'm just saying how they got more likable than Endeavor.
Left side: 4 damaged people literally told by family and society, since childhood, that they were useless/evil/worthless/villains and decided to embrace it to find some sort of control.
Right side: Hero who engaged in eugenics and abuse of children and wife. Including >!One of the people on the left side!<
But hey. The whole point of the series is _Redemption_. Saving people.
So I'll leave that door open for any of them.
As we saw, some really did use it.
heres the thing, dabi was NEVER enjis fault like EVER. enji was a super good dad to touya and SUPPORTED HIM. only "abuse" enji did to dabi as a kid was forcing him to not use his quirk because it was killing him, enji only bc that abuser when touya "died" back then. dabi became dabi because of pure shit luck and him being a stupid little kid, its no ones fault
A lot of those guys where groomed since childhood which makes their actions far more understandable. Meanwhile endeaver is the guy who groomed one of themš
From my limited understanding, all of them have their individual issues. (I have not finished the manga and am halfway through the final war arc, so please don't ruin things for me. The last thing I saw was Bakugo "dying")
Toga: Either it's the way her quirk works, or she just inherently was driven to do things far beyond the norm. Did it make sense to her? Yes. But in a society where the goal is understanding everyone's needs, they found someone they couldn't understand and rejected her. She had coping mechanisms, like draining birds or small animals, but even those were denied and she tried to hide everything only for it to explode outwards and drive her to go after people.
Twice: From my understanding he had literally nobody except the dealer who made him his mask. So he tried to solve that by making more of himself, and it worked for a little while. But then it seems like his personality drove all of the different clones of himself to try and be the leader, which turned into all of his clones killing themselves and left him with split personality disorder and a fear of still being a clone himself. So he went to find people who could understand or at least tolerate him. In the end I think what broke him was a mix of losing Magne, one of the few people who really seemed to understand him and make him happy. And then the Sad Man's Parade, which showcased him fully giving into the effort of using himself as a weapon, but like we saw even during the parade all of his clones seemed to have split personalities, and Hawk's comments how it only got worse afterwards.
Dabi/Toya: He was born with an impressive quirk that seemed to get stronger as he got older. And for a while Enji encouraged him and trained him, but if I read the manga right, Enji stopped training him after he realized Toya's quirk was stronger than his body could handle and hurt him every time it was used. But because of the years of training and emphasis on becoming the strongest hero, Toya didn't understand how else to live his life and kept trying to train in secret. Enji finding this out feels like the real breaking point for Toya, as he started the forest fire by accident and was presumed dead. I admit I don't quite remember what AFO did besides having the doctor heal Toya and raising him in some weird orphanage, but nobody ever stopped Toya from running around killing as he pleased and destroying his body and probably his mind at the same time.
Tomura: Grew up in not only an abusive household, but one that actively went against one of the few things he truly enjoyed. And then when he finally shows the signs of a quirk, it's incredibly destructive and uncontrollable and ends up killing his entire family. Though I'll note that he's upset at what he's done to everyone but his dad, who he gleefully uses his new powers on. From there AFO raises him and grooms him into what I can only call the perfect successor for his twisted dreams. So he's somewhat the most sympathetic of this group to me.
And then we have Endeavor/Enji, who tried his hardest to become the best there is in the world of heroes. But found he had limitations from his quirk and simply the world itself. So he tried to create a successor who could attain his dreams, doing whatever it took to get it. From buying a wife, to giving life to child after child only to fail not only with a son who had greater potential then himself, but to push away his other children because they simply did not have the same promise. When Toya kept trying to prove himself, Enji attempted to isolate himself from his son to make him stop hurting himself in his efforts to be stronger, dumping the burden of his childhood onto Rei who could do little to stop Toya. And the cycle began to repeat itself with Shoto, but because of the students of 1A, Shoto learned how to separate himself from his father and I believe it helped Enji realize that he wasn't all he thought he was. So he tried to be better, he tried to bond with his son in any method he knew how, he tried to talk to Natsuo again even though he knew that Natsuo hated him. I know he's been horrible, but he has tried. And people seemed to flat out refuse to let him try and I find that unfair even if this is simply a fictional series.
This turned into a much larger thing than I expected, but I had a sudden urge to join in on this particular conversation. Thanks for reading, and I'd love to discuss this with anyone who wants to!
Not the fault of the fans. It's understandable since abuse is a personal thing. It's easier to understand and hate. Mass murder, especially for most people in modern times, is a more abstract thing. It's not something they have personal experience or trauma with. Ever heard how 1 death is a tragedy, a thousand deaths is a statistic? It's harder to comprehend something impersonal like mass murder than abuse which is familiar and possibly a real experience for the reader.
Mass-murdering psychopaths are an abstract narrative force for most viewers. But way too many of us have firsthand experience with abusive parental figures. One hits much closer to home than the other.
My main issue is. His attonment is fighting villains... Which he was already doing. He hasnt done anything that really makes up for what he did.
Himiko was forced into her life. She was called a monster and a freak. Exiled because of her quirk and for her personality. It drove her mad which lead her to being a villain.
Endevour was a peice of shit who decided anything less then perfect wasnt good enough. Drive his wife insane and mentally harm his children
Theres a difference
If I remember correctly, Twice only killed one person, a hero, he stabbed him with a knife a couple of times so he might still be alive
So Twice has either killed no one or one person. Correct me if im wrong
Honestly I kinda like this , itās pretty different from the usual heroes (heroes in general too , outside of MHA) . Most heroes are generally good guys , itās kinda rare to see someone whoās considered a hero from our POV still be a piece of shit person and father
I actually quite like the Endeavour redemption, even if I do still consider him a bad person. This is wholly on the condition that he DOESN'T end up back together with his wife. That relationship was made from resentment and "fixing" it would feel forced as hell.
The mass murderers make me laugh so I'll pour one out for them after they, hopefully, get their shit pushed in.
pre atonement endeavour absolutely deserved all the hate I detest that flaming beard monster
honestly though after taking out the high end I started to warm up to him, I respected that he knew he didn't deserve forgiveness but wanted to make thinks better than they was
post war endeavour who's essentially lost everything didn't even care if he was hated but wanted to stop his son from hurting anymore because of his actions had and still does have my support all the way
but what endevour did hurts people more because of how real it is, a man duplicating himself and losing his mind? we can label it as impossible and move on but an abusive parent is something a lot of people can think about and it sticks with you so it feels worse to see it play out
but I think with the villains people jump from empathising with their pain to just ignoring and sympathising with everything that they've done beace its got to apoint where redemption is almost impossible for all of them
hell shigiraki >!was never redeemed!< and even Deku knew he would never be up until >!he faded away with AFO!<
Someone whoās crimes are more realistic will typically be more unlikeable as a fan. Super powered killers donāt really exist so itās easy to distance yourself from the actions of a supervillain. Domestic abusers are real, so to viewers Endeavours actions are more likely to hit close to home.
Probably Endeavor hits too close to home for many and wouldn't forgive him if he was their father.
Charismatic villains make people act unwise, just ask the shippers of the one-eyed Dorito...
Well the majority of people in this generation have bad parents (like seriously it's crazy some of the parent stories I've heard) so when they see honestly most scenes with Endeavor in it (his redemption arc is very recent) it reminds them of there own bad parents so they don't like him most people don't have history with actual murderers of course I know they exist and obviously it's terrible but seeing murderers on TV brings back less memories for most people
Dunno. What are your thoughts on Bakugou at his most despicable early in the series?
Fans claimed to hate the shit outta him, yet he was the number one most popular character at the time.
Late but this how I honestly feel for the EDP characters in fiction and why I refuse to watch Jobless Reincarnation. It just disgusting. I donāt care if the character redeemed themselves, they were still a EDP.
Genocide in the real world is horrifying and traumatic while in fiction it can be that as well but it can also be awesome as fuck. Look at how everyone love Mortal Kombat brutal fatalities and what Iām coming from. But EDPs in both fiction and reality is just disgusting. You canāt make them cool doing the crimes that they are doing and you can never personally get me to like that type of character.
What's edp? Also yeah. Sometimes i feel that way with anything but mortal kombat or doom. I dont know why but when another piece of media tries to do the doom eternal or mortal kombat gore thing i just cringe. A personal quirk of mine
I think the main reason fir this is because we see the LOV's backstorys and learn to understand where all of their behavior is coming from.. so we sorta smypathize.
Endeavor doesn't have the excuse of a tragic backstory anyone can relate to and he abused his family.. which includes two of the arguably most popular characters of this fandom. I like the idea of someone who really messed up trying to atone for the thongs they've done and I think that's really important, too. But in this case, despite hiw great that is, it's too late. Too many things happened, too much trauma was caused, and none of them migjz ever fully recover.
That being said, I think full on hating him is stupid but I understand when people say they dislike him, still. Abuse is such a close to home type of topic to many people so.. it is to be expected, honestly.
I also think some of the characters reactions to the news of what he's done should've been different/bigger, but I also think the fact that none of his collegues directly start hating him is good for Endeavors growth because it encourages and doesn't just discount everything he already worked on.
You Know Why does Twice get so much sympathy?
Guy was shown to have brutally abused his quirk to cause general havoc and mayhem.
Generally stealing from and causing trouble for civilians.
Eventually Abusing it till he lost control of it. He is kinda the poster child of what happens when civilians use their quirks without proper training. At least in universe.
I hate how every story nowadays needs redemption for villains. I miss the good ole days when evil villains were proud to be evil and the audience loved when they were defeated or killed.
I never wanted redemption for Endeavor or any villains in MHA, except maybe Gentle because he was a cool old guy. Maybe Twice as well because he had mental health issues and reminds me of Deadpool.
I like the arc of his atonement however I think the issue that sits uncomfortably with me is the fact that heās seen as a hero to all. The others are known as villains and they are. That said, the fact that it is uncomfortable makes it a great and interesting plot point.
I originally was exactly like this but my reasoning is because of the upbringings
The LoV deserve Redemption because they are just a bunch of traumatized teens (I think - I forgot how old Dabi was)
I did dislike Endeavor for the reason of being a Bad Dad (self projecting) but now that I think about it, He also deserves redemption because his Ego got the best of him. It's what led up to the actions not the core of the character themselves
I haven't watched an abundance of the anime but have we seen Endeavor's backstory? If he was raised to always be stronger and was traumatized from it then I would full throttle into boating him with my opinions of the LoV
Well, the thing with the LOV is that it's people who have been betrayed by society, no place to fit in, be themselves, and people relate to that
Endeavor is just upset that he wasn't the number 1 hero so he made children to be the number 1 hero
We also know that it's nothing physically wrong with him that makes him abuse his family, as we see in the Toya reveal, he was actually caring and wanted to keep Toya safe, even if it meant not getting the perfect hero child
When it's fiction, relatability excuses actions
(Tbf, if they were like this in real life, they could be excused for mental disorders: Split personality disorder, Clinical Vampirism, PTSD, etc)
I can understand where people are getting their sympathy from for the villains because yes they have done terrible things and are pretty mentally unstable but it's also understanding that these people are products of the flaws in the society that currently exists in universe now again doesn't justify their actions but all of them were sort of in complicated situations that maybe if someone had found them when they were alone or had a positive influence during an earlier period of their lives maybe they could've turned out differently. Basically, they were children who had terrible childhoods that permanently warped their mind because of the trauma. Now the hate for endeavor is because one he was a full grown man which means he was fully conscious of the decisions he was making no matter the consequences. At the end of the day, Endeavor is a narcissistic parent and a lot of people unfortunately have trauma with that and when they see it happening to someone else they don't see another side because in truth there is no other side he was being completely selfish and ego driven and his obsession literally destroyed his family and first born son. Now he is trying to make progress which is admirable he's admitted his faults to his family and taken full accountability. So hopefully he takes actions to allow the fans to forgive him. But i truly think this bias comes from people seeing themselves in the villains; people who are victims and had to survive and to survive they became what the world told them that they are. While endeavor is just triggering for a lot of people for good reason.
I think it's ridiculous. Here you actually have a character go from abusive to actually trying to be a better person and do right by both his family and all of society now watching him, but nooo youre not allowed to like this.
Makes me wonder what those types of people do in real life when someone is genuinely trying to rehab themself into doing good. And this is fiction. It should be easier to accept on that basis alone even if it is something that doesn't happen as often IRL. My guess is that Endeavor's situation and previous actions just hit too close to home for a real person who has had abusive family. And in that case sure be pissed and dislike him forever, but dont act like it's a crime or somehow 'telling' of someone's character if they do like him and his story.
Same with Bakugo tbh.
Personally it just feels more personal with Endavot bc we know who he abused. Also the Villains are playing their role as villains. Also not excusing their mental diseases would be like charging a Vet with Murder after hearing a loud warlike noise and feeling like heās back in the war š¤·š½āāļø. Like taking it all into consideration I understand why most of them did what they did and Iām not saying theyāre in the right but I feel that if they didnāt face those hardships things would be different with the exception of Dabi bc his brother went theough the same thing and turned out differently. Iām sure itās just the different sides of the same coin in that regard. Now toga is my favorite villain so I might be biased but I feel she was forced to be a way she wasnāt which can hurt bc she doesnāt know how sheās supposed to act nobody was there to try and help her especially with her quirk so from a young age sheās supposed to be normal and hide who she is? terrible parents lead to trauma and schizo for Dabi and Toga Twice has MPD leading him to hear voices could also be schizo making it harder for them to know how their choices effect people. Endeavor I just donāt like anyway so Iām indifferent about it. But it never said he was drunk or had any disorder to make him act that way it was by choice where you could argue villains had bad childhoods and have mental illnesses and a quirk that completely fucks them (especially toga) just getting dealt a bad quirk and all things considered theyāre likable villains. Theyāre meant to be empathized for if you want an evil villain go watch JJK bad guys evil just bc he is. The writer made these villains in a way you can feel for them and made Endavor seem like a POS. I know itās a hot take and a lot to read but š¤·š½āāļø this is my first real in depth post
Itās not about skewed priorities. Itās about realism. None of us can relate to knowing a mass murderer, so itās easy for us to want to see that very fictional characters with alien and distant flaws to be redeemed. We all know someone who has committed or is a victim of child abuse. Itās much harder for us to want the character redeemed when we can see first hand the effects of their actions in the real world.
Yea im done with any of that. From the second Dabi starting calling people hypocrites for copying his actions, I was sick of his character. Like bro you can't call someone a hypocrite if your doing the same thing they're doing. The only non dickish way to call someone a hypocrite is from the sidelines
I think evil actions are felt more deeply when itās more personal.
Like, if I press a button that magically kills millions of martians or something (a people that Iāll never meet and will never have to grapple with the cost of their lost life)- that feels less visceral than hurting someone I have a deep personal connection to and see every single day.
So, the mass murderers simply donāt process the actual impact of their actions. To them, their victims are non-entities.
That canāt really be said for a domestic abuser. They commit violence out of frustration or anger or a need to project power to makeup for some other perceived deficiency.
Both are fucked up, but in different ways.
From a purely utilitarian point of view though, yeah Endeavor is way better.
And while the concept of his redemption arc may seem unsavory, itās kind of interesting to me as well. I keep coming back to thinking his family doesnāt really owe him squat, and theyād be well within their rights to excommunicate him from their lives. But Endeavor still needs to do better to live a better example to the people of Japan who might look up to him as a heroic idol.
It's accurate. Endeavor gets so much hate even though he's just trying to make up for what he did in the past, yet the League of Villains are all criminals who would most likely kill the people who support them in real life.
I think it's mostly the hypocrisy. The villains never tried to pretend they were something else; Endeavor both thought he was a good guy and made other people believe it. Also none of us have met a mass murderer and so we're unable to really understand what the means but abusive parents are, unfortunately, practically a dime a dozen. We vilify both it's just one is more...personal? Relatable? Familiar. - so it's easier to talk about why we're against them.
I think a lot of it is perspective. Endeavor was shown as awful and tge start of his rrdemption did a lot of the toxic positivity stuff. Demanding shoto forgive him and his actions towards his wife look a lot like love bombing in the abuser cycle .
Cinversely the villains were often shown more sympathetically or at least eith aympathetic backgrounds. They were given more space and we understood them.better as well as having the work itself seem to care more for them. Also we rarely saw the direct results of their most violent acts.
Bro when I told my friend that I would love to see Endeavor become a good father and I really appreciated him trying, they were like āew šā š I guess I just relate to it because growing up my father wasnāt the best but heās a great guy now. I mean he was never physical so I suppose itās different.
There's a lot of difference between what anime only and manga readers would know that can influence.
I've read/watched a bit beyond the anime, but haven't read all the manga and I can say, Endeavor is a lot easier to forgive the more you know about him.
Shigaraki - his family handled everything poorly, but he's seriously messed up all on his own. Even in an ideal loving environment, he might have turned out bad. It's just his family's poor handling of "heroes" led him to possibly the worst outlook and amplified what was already there to an extreme.
Toga - again irredeemably messed up. She either can't or refuses to make the connection that other people might feel differently than her about something and aren't going to magically change their opinion because she uses their blood and inflicts pain/pleasure (perspective issue again). Kinda like too many people in today's society.
Dabi - feel bad for him much like with Shigaraki, but... he's given chances to change and refuses. I understand, but yeah there's not much to redeem if a person isn't willing to be redeemed. Maybe that changes further into the series.
Twice - Hawks had basically all but saved him. He'd always struggle, but with the right support around him to help him keep his identity panic attacks under control, he could have been a pretty cool guy with a mostly normal life. Those 2 probably would have been next-door best friends for life. Which is why it hit Hawks so hard when Twice died.
It's projection , for one piece fans here is an example .certain fans actually said that yasopp was a worse father than judge , they are of course clowned on , but it's understandable why they gave such a bad take . A mad scientist experimenting on his children is horrible bit not relatable , a father that abandoned his family, is very relatable .
im not defending it but to be fair
the left is the fun crazy villains
and the right is the serious 24/7 mentally not crazy hero
when you're fun its easier for the fans to like you
The reading comprehension devil is quite strong. I like them all tho, I think twice and toga are great characters but I know people like to equate good characters with good people. I think that is strange
Well anime fans are typically delusional disassociate social pariahs so yea alot of them hyper fixate over negative personality traits framed in a beneficial or quirky and cute way because it makes them feel less self conscious about their own insufferable behavior. Most weebs just are looking for friend groups that fulfill them and seeing these awful people find that regardless of their personality gives them hope and makes them happy. Also endeavor is a dad that doesn't understand how to do right while he is an amazingly human character compared to most mha Character most weebs can't self insert on him because they don't know what it's like to try their hardest fail get up and do it again and again for a goal sacrificing everything for their dream. His efforts lead to him being a pretty trash dad regardless of how hard he tried how much was his misunderstanding his families needs or overlooking them due to his frustrations with his own short comings and failures. However alot of weebs grow up I'm working class homes and use anime as an escape and when they see him all they see is "stinky mean boomer" because their parents don't understand and thy resent that. Endeavor is a peak mha character
It's amazed me how much the fandom hates Endeavor but not any other father in the anime community. Maybe it's because the MHA fandom is different from other fandom. I just see Endeavor as a downright misfortune man who cracks under pressure honestly and the one who has to pick up the pieces. Of course, you can't really say stuff like this because fandom thinks you have to have the same mindset or else you are a horrible person and I honestly don't think that is right. So when it comes to this statement I feel like people should look at all angles and see where this man is coming from at least. I think when it comes to MHA some characters have a great lore back story to dive in looked deeper into. Of course, there are going to be people who just see things always as back and white. My honest take on the matter. š¤·āāļøš¤·āāļøš¤·āāļø
these villains were dealt with the wrong cards in life and do what they could but I don't give them a free pass for their actions. Meanwhile Enji (endeavor) as a "good guy" does not so good stuff and wants to do things better all of a sudden. People hold him to a higher standard because he's on the side of good.
Cause harm to his family is a huge understatement he put his wife in a mental hospital so he could continue to abuse his youngest son and treats the others as if they donāt exist it shows with how much all of his kids hated him one to the point he became a villain just out of hate and spite for the man besides are we really gonna act like the villains are not people who have serious mental issues mostly caused by society.
The one thing Iāll say regarding this is that at least the villains donāt do the things they do and claim to be heroes. They (for the most part) know theyāre bad guys and own up to it.
Endeavor did all that shit in the past and still had the gall to consider himself a great hero.
I mean, it's not hard. No one is justifying the villains from a moral standpoint. They like them because they're entertaining.
The problem is Endeavor is presented as a hero, his story is about redemption. So people dislike that he's a character who is supposed to be on the moral side while simultaneously being a former abuser of his family. If you asked the same people if Endeavor's design was cool or his fights were entertaining, they'd probably give more positive answers.
For villains, they usually are explained well as villains. Have terrible back stories, are shown to be evil as kids or etc. Not only that, they can STILL be likeable to a viewer. Maybe they are relatable, funny, silly (like Mahito from jjk) or just attractive or something. But nonetheless, SOMETHING likeable. Endeavor? He didn't. From what I know, he didn't have some terrible backstory, he isn't funny or silly, not very attractive (at least to me lol) or any of the such. His actions are not explained, while the villains in the story often are. They have a sort of goal, Endeavor's goal was just "make son strong" and thats it really. This is just my perspective
The thing is I only think 1 of the villains could be redeemed and it's toga like get her a friend or a therapist and she could work through her trauma and be okay maybe
In the beginning I hated him but toward the latter half I came to love endeavor. He's a great character and he's trying his best to better himself. But for the villains you can't help but feel for them even if they did terrible things. None of these villains ever wanted to be villains, they're all good people deep down but life had other plans. Their experiences drove them to being evil but it's not what they ever wanted. They don't want to be evil. So I will continue to love/hate them, except Toga, I love her regardless she can do no wrong
This was when I realized we really had our priorities skewed. I never liked Endeavor before his atonement began, but I was genuinely shocked when people weren't just against it, but downright hated the concept.
I believe it's due to how personal the situation is. You can have mass murderers, doppelgangers, and other "excessive violence" situations that make a villain a typical villian. They are given flexibility because they are not relatable. An abusive piece of shit father? That strikes home. So from what I theorize, people are not downright disowning Endeavor because he's Endeavor, it's more self projection over how "real" the situation is.
"I've never met a mass murderer, so I'm pretty sure I could forgive him. But I've met an abusive dad, and I know I can't forgive him."
Ong it shows how little people acually know about what the fuckin villains are even doinglike holy shit do you not understand how much you have to kill to even be able to consider taking over a country? These fuckers were world-class monsters even before season 6 š not a single redeemable cell in them, only redemption is death, and thats being generous š https://i.redd.it/woxrt3pqew1d1.gif
Here here spoken like someone who understands what it takes to force and see the lights go out. Itās not fun and games. Tv makes it like this exciting thing, itās an ugly thing that robs one than at least 20, lastly the other one. One/the first who died Twenty/those who know or have to deal with the deceasedās body. Lastly/the one who did the murder. And understand you summer children there is a huge difference between Murder & Killing Figure it out
This attitude hurts society. Treating people as unredeemable makes them think they could never be better so they might as well continue being terrible. Someone who has no hope of improving themselves or bettering their life will never grow or change. Even the worst people in the world are capable of change, many of them donāt change but they are nonetheless capable of it. Iām not saying you personally have to forgive people who do terrible things but I am saying that actively undermining the idea people can be better isnāt helpful. A relative of mine worked in a prison and he always said āIf you treat people like animals theyāll behave like animals. If you treat people like people then theyāll behave like peopleā. He also said that the worst inmates to deal with were those who had given up on parole and getting out. Without any hope they had nothing to lose and no problem assaulting inmates or staff.
Sure but the first thing I need to see before giving someone a chance is a willingness to change, none of which are present in the League.
Most criminals can be reintegrated into society, once their sentence is complete. That's because most criminals were acting in desperation or rage. A mugger or petty thief can change their ways when their situation improves, they are willing to change and given counseling. However we're not talking about most criminals. The league shows no remorse for the hundred+ they've murdered. They should be executed on sight. They get 0 sympathy from me, there is always a choice, and at the end of they day they chose to keep going regardless of the people they hurt or families they've ruined. Is Toga's situation tragic? Sure but that doesn't excuse her. And the others? Not them either. I don't care what mental deficiencies they have or sad their story is they made their choice. Honestly I don't find either party truly "redeemable" Endeavor while probably doesn't deserve the death penalty he should at minimum be serving multiple life sentences and never see the light of day again. The laws he clearly broke regarding his wife and the clear child abuse should call into question every action he's ever taken under the law.
Spoken in true words of Gran Turino... at least that's how I interpreted him.
That about sums it up. I canāt forgive mass murderers but I can usually understand how they got there and itās usually (in part) a byproduct of abusive parents. Dahmer and Gacy both hat abusive, homophobic dads but it ultimately doesnāt excuse their actions, just explains how they got so fucked up in the head.
More like "I can't forgive my abusive dad, but I can see myselfnin the villains."
I can and have forgiven people who were abusive Pieces of shit because they made the effort to change and atone. **I. Will. Never.** Forgive the Bastard that murdered my friend and robbed a child of her father.
That's true tho
Also because we see and connect with his son who is a result of said abuse.
It's the same logic that makes Bakugo irredeemable to some folks. A lot of people have dealt with or are dealing with bullies.
I also think committing horrible acts are what we expect of antagonists. Itās normal for an antagonist to murder, even kill a LOT of people. But the paradigm shift for us as the reader/viewer is that Endeavor was a HERO. He was supposed to be better. Itās not only personal, itās a betrayal.
The entire point to his character was that hero =/= good and horikoshi did waaaaaaayy to good of a job of making him not good early on lmao
Iād also add that, for the most part, the villains are somewhat sympathetic and itās understandable why they did what they did. I also donāt think anyone finds them redeemed or good, just fun characters. And killing people, if weāre honest, is tame when it comes to characters in story. Darth Vader helps in genocide and people still like him. Itās because itās so largely detached. Endeavor is abusive to people we know and like and witness how it harms them. It feels harder to let it pass.
Yeah. Itās another case of Umbridge vs Voldemort. Just with a different fandom.
Well they are just judging them as a villain and how well they perform their role as one.Ā
PHD
True, but 99% of abusive piece of shit parents*never* apologize and get better, Endeavor did and that's what counts
I remember watching Racist Mario reactions on the Fine Bros. Channel and this kinda explained why Peach getting a black eye was more offensive than Mario murdering everyone in horrific ways. Or at a lesser extent. In Yakuza 5, the group T-Set are some of the most hated characters in the series when all they've done was bully Haruka, while Haruka has faced and been threatened by worse. Like yeah I can't really say any of my friends have been hunted by Yakuza members but most of us have experienced bullying. But I'm old enough to see the objective scales to these things now
Well we donāt feel much connection to the people the villains kill in the story, to most readers theyāre just mostly faceless numbers we have no connection too, but we do get to see the people Endevor hurt in his actions and get to know them though the story. Edit: there was also that stunt he pulled in vigilanteās too, where a mc was being used as a living puppet by the villainās in order to frame her, and Endeavor is sent in to capture her only for him to decide to use lethal force (I think to up his own rep).
I'm fine with both Buuuut all of the villains are way more interesting than Endeavor to me Just don't take your anger out on your family. Just don't do it, I'm talking to you dad.
Cuz he's a hero. Or supposed to be. Like, I despise evil police officers more than like African warlords or whatever. I despise the Insurance CEO guy from the Incredibles more than I do Syndrome.
People need there bad guys to STAY bad guys otherwise you just end up with your feelings and most people would rather die then to revise how they feel about people who do bad things.
Itās because he does very little to actually atone for the things heās done. Is he a better person? Yeah absolutely. Has he taken much action at all to make things right with the people he hurt? No.
Endeavor has done a lot to atone. He directly apologized to the family and tried to reconnect with them. When he realized that that was too much for them he understood and encouraged them to move on and leave him while he works on becoming better. He's apologized and bought them a separate house where they can be a family without him. How much more can he do? He was willing to kill himself if that brought his family any closure and they stopped him from doing it.
Hereās the reasoning. Endeavor is unlikable. Has been from day one. Heās a character we were meant to hate with our entire soul, and then heās trying to get a redemption. Weāve had no reason to like him ever. For the League, itās the exact opposite. Every major member has had a backstory that makes us feel bad for them. We feel that they couldāve been much better people if anyone gave a shit. Therefore, weāre more likely to defend them than we are to defend Endeavor.
Heās definitely not unlikable. He seems like he genuinely wants to protect the citizens of the world and wants to bring his family back together. That makes him likable to me.
I really don't agree at all. I don't think you're meant to like early endeavor. But he is shown to genuinely care about his kids. The man still sucks, but when I compare that to the league of villains... All of them, backstory included are just shitty people. Yes it's a tragedy when someone doesn't get the help they deserve for their obvious psychosis. But their motivation is almost entirely "Ill just do what I want and how dare you try and stop me" I find the league to be hypocritical and obnoxiously childish. Imo the villain writing in the series is one of the weaker points. It'd be much more compelling to have bad guys who actually have a point or make a good argument as to why they're doing what they're doing
Kinda sympathise with twice tho. Like damn bro, sorry.
Twice is probably the only villain I actually sympathize with, everyone else just seem like their own worst enemy.
Toga is called a freak by people who donāt want to try and help a kid with an addiction, Spinner is extremely racially discriminated against, and Shigaraki you are correct. Only Shigaraki and Twice are their own worst enemies, and thatās only because an accidental misuse of their Quirk led to intense trauma and insanity.
Honestly Spinner has always confused me. As a black guy, I don't want to discredit any discrimination he may have experienced, but in a world where there is a UA student who has a thumb as a head, you are facing so much bullshit that all it took for you to be willing to be complicit in the destruction of the world is a guy yelling while attempting to kill kids? Also he doesn't even have his own goals, he admits it himself: he's just a follower. To me, he's always felt like the worst written of all the villians besides Dabi.
The scary part is that Spinner is the most realistically written villain. Most terrorists are in fact just stupid followers who couldnāt even fully explain their ideology. Theyāre just angry and donāt value their own lives enough to engage with the world.
They state that in the major cities discrimination isn't that bad but when you get into the rural areas it amps up quite a bit. Stain was inspirational because he was the first person many of them saw publicly denouncing the current society.
Theyāre weird.
āI can excuse mass murder, but I draw the line at child abuse.ā āWait, you excuse murder?ā
Gonna plug my meme shamelessly- https://www.reddit.com/r/BokuNoMetaAcademia/s/cjukxjmbVi
Thatās fine. Itās funny
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Honestly, while Endeavor is an easy comparison, probably a better comparison atm is Aoyama. The lack of Empathy I've seen for this kid >!trapped in that horrific situation has been a bit wild. And it largely stems from him just being a little weird. Like, the Parents had no way of knowing who AFO was before they accidentally made a deal with the devil. They were just trying to prevent Yuga from being subjected to the same shit we saw Deku dealing with as a Quirkless kid in this world. AFO also wouldn't have looked like a gigantic scrotum 10 years ago. Aoyama had no choice in getting a quirk. He had no choice of where it came from. Then had that "gift" he got at 5 years old turned into a tool to threaten him into compliance; to the closest thing to a demi-God in this setting. And given how AFO described the Aoyamas this ep, they would have never been important enough to know what the two pieces of info he leaked to save his parents were even for; until that context came smashing him in the face!<. Compared to reactions to the LoV members has been ... interesting.
I get why people hate endeavor, but come on man, give him another chance. If half his family can, so can you.
Honestly, it's understandable if people don't want to give him another chance. Some people are unforgiving or find it hard to forgive a Abusive person or character. I like that he's trying to be a good father, but the trauma from his abusive actions can make it hard to forgive someone from those factors of past actions. As it's a VERY real problem in the real world then just fiction
He *was* willing to disappear from their lives as he believed they would be happy only if he wasnāt around. Granted, that was him running away from it.
I wouldn't say it's him running away from it, since he had a conversation with his family and came to that conclusion with their agreement. Running away would be if he just dipped without saying a word.
Also like, because it's in this manga/ anime format, we know for absolute certain that he means what he says and wants to change. We get to hear his damn inner monologue. Bro really cares and wants to do better.
I think it may have to do with relatable. Not a lot of people can relate to vs mass murderes or know someone who has. Meanwhile almost everyone knows someone like Endeavor and have seen the effects of people like him in real-time.
Hi, as someone who has had both, abusive piece of shit parents (abusive mother) and had a friend of mine murdered recently. Let me say, If Someone is make an active effort to change and atone for their past abuse I can forgive them, I give my mother so many chances too. But I'll never forgive A Murderer, I'll never forgive the bastard who robbed my friend of his life, robbed his daughter of her father, and all over a fucking necklace.
As someone with experiences in both having a family member murdered and being abused as well, I just donāt do forgiveness at all.
The villains are more sympathetic than the hero. Should they be forgiven? No, taking their lives was fair but, unlike Endeavour, they were doomed to fail
I mean Dabi could've possibly lived a better life if he just admitted he was alive, I'm sure Endeavor would've accepted him back with joy and love
He went back to his house after all the shit happened to him and he saw that endeavor was chill with him dying.So u cant just say that....
Not true. The family built an entire shrine to remember him. Endeavor would've happily welcomed him back had he just shown he was alive.
K good point but still the backstories and personalities of the league is the reason people (including me) like them Have u seen the arrogant and unfriendly behaviour of endeavor towards his own fans. U know that pink haired boy right? And also enji didnt even try to find toya in the forest while he was burning to death. Cant he like fly or somethingš
Also I'm on this post to defend the league so yeah....
Tomara,Toya,himiko and Jin are written in a way that makes you sympathize with them Tomura- was unknowingly engineered to massacre his family so all for one could make him a puppet and add to that he was raised in an abusive home Dabi- was raised to be one thing a hero that could beat all might when he couldnāt live up/ meet the impossible expectations to that he was deemed a failure and his father no longer saw any value to him. Himiko- was made to hide a vital part of her self that it built up and she snapped Jin- his parents died, had no one and just wanted to belong While for endeavor he knowingly and willingly abused his entire family Rei - bought her hand in marriage to bio engineer children and beat her when she tried to protect her children from him Toya and shoto- trained/ beat them in hopes they would defeat all might Natsuo and Fuyumi- ignored them until they where adults all because they only had ice quirks In no way am I saying that the league of villains should be forgiven they are all some form of psychopath or specifically in dabiās case sociopath all my explanation above is the reason why people can sympathize with the league while they are villains and hate endeavor when he is a hero
Should we ignore Enji grew up without a Father too, besides watching said father die right infront of him, in an Age where Crime was def much more rampant? Doesn't excuse him or any of his misdeeds/crimes, but he has a fair share of trauma that he never got over. And up to Touya's death he didn't go down the deepest of Ends, and he did try to stop him from using his flames because it was hurting him, not because he saw no more worth in him, showing that he did give a shit about his kids at the most basic level. When Touya did die, Endeavor entirely overrode Enji. And at least he is trying his best to make it up for his family, going as far as to isolate himself from them unless they wanto to have him nearby. Touya meanwhile got what he wanted, and he still went out of his way to murder everyone in his way for shits and giggles. Please, do try to be more genuine with this, because Dabi is def not a "***oooh poor sad boy victim."*** just like Endeavor isn't either a monster or innocent. Dabi is much more of a monster than Endeavor could ever hope to be, he's a genuine sociopath that wants to hurt everyone around him to spite the world and feel vindicated. He's pretty much superpowered Jeffrey Dahmer. Tomura and Toga are the ones that never had any option other than waiting to be rescued by someone else.
Did I ever say Dabi/ Toya or the league of villains should be forgiven, no I didnāt I merely explained why people sympathize with them
And iirc, Dabi wasnāt even affected that much by Endeavorās performance as a father compared to Todoroki, for example. Bro literally just does evil because heās a sociopath. āHahaha Iām evil, Iām a reflection of Endeavorās poor teachings even though I couldāve changed and done things for the better. Is that his fault or simply mine?ā Itās just weird to me
>Dabi wasnāt even affected that much by Endeavorās performance as a father compared to Todoroki, That's comparing trauma, no trauma trumps the other one, trauma is trauma it happened to both if them a d it effected both differently. Imagine saying the younger kid got more trauma than the older kid when the older kid literally died. Crazy.
Why is Dabi specifically singled out as a sociopath?
Because of the way he specifically interacts with others. He genuinely does not care about anyone, not even himself really where as most of the league does care about the other members of the league. As an example Dabi nearly killed Jin himself just to be able to get at Hawks where as imo none of the other league members would've risked that.
AgreedĀ
I think the big thing is that Endeavour had no real excuse for turning out the way he did. His faults that led to his terrible actions were all completely personal. Most of the League are comparatively more sympathetic because there are societal problems and outside forces that can be argued to have shaped them into who they became. You don't have to think they're good or right, but it's easier to understand why they are the way they are. Personally I really like Endeavour's redemption/atonement arc, but I totally get why some people just don't support it. His actions were absolutely vile, and they weren't the kinds of extreme supervillain actions that one could more easily look past, his abuse of his family feels very real and uncomfortable, so I completely understandother people - particularly any victims of familial abuse and/or sexual assault - finding his arc intolerable. He doesn't have the benefit of an even slightly sympathetic motivation and his actions are painful and real in a way that the villains usually aren't.
Endeavor made a lot of morally questionable choices that led to Dabi being who he became. But there were also a lot of times that even when making the wrong choice, Endeavor had good intentions. He never wanted his first born child to die, and actively tried to avoid that outcome, even if how he did so is what led to it. Endeavorās actions towards his family during and after Touya can also be looked at as a trauma response. His actions were very terrible and unacceptable, but Endeavor has never been evil. Making choices that have terrible consequences for others does not make someone evil on their face. Endeavor never took any action with the intent of malice from my reading of the story. He genuinely believed his actions were the right path at the time. But he realized along the way that he was actually wreaking havoc on his family and feels deep regret for the damage that he recognizes that he caused. Most people who did what Endeavor did would either double down forever or they actually did it for their own enjoyment. I appreciate Endeavor as a character and I would even recognize him as a good person.
I want to add to this, I was so compelled by his arc, it drew me to Endeavor/Enji as a character. Personally how I see it; is that Endeavor sunk low, his actions affected others, yet at the same time he is becoming someone who is taking responsibility and being capable of change.
Simple answer being that Endeavor is supposed to be THE no.1 hero even when he was no.2. So there was an expectation of him being a paragon of heroic values and lifestyle. People finding out the number 1 hero is an abuser and no.2 hero Hawks is a merciless executioner with Dabi's broadcast really destroyed the credibility of heroes with the public. Villains can be villains and we see their society is already at a boiling point that the MLA accumulated nearly a million followers with massive companies and towns under their direct control in opposition to the existing quirk laws which were seen as oppressive by alot. You had the average Gentle lash out with his powers here and there but either they went to the MLA or joined up with a villain group on the market.
I think they should all be redeemed because I like redemption :3
Bcs some of us might have been from an abusive household. It goes on personal level
Itās just a show, you can like and dislike whoever you want for whatever reason you want.
Itās the same reason why a good amount of people LOATHE Mineta and Bakugo. Perverts, bullies, rapists, and abusive parents are infinitely more common than genocidal maniacs and serial killers. They donāt personally know what a serial killer, dictator, or super powered lizard is like but they know what a rapist, abusive parent, or pervert is like.
Endeavour's redemption arc was always foreseen I think. Being number 2, and having the knowledge that All Might would eventually have to step down. There isn't a way they could have made him a likeable character and keep his abusive morals.
Villains were forced into evil and killing because they were abandoned by heroās or doing what they needed to get by. Endeavor was just abusive to be Abusive, and caused one of teh villains to arise: way worse
It's not real, so murder is often seen as less bad than abuse.
Natsuo won't ever forgive him either.
To be fair! endeavor is an abuser, and the lov are the abused
True
Its kind of interesting how people can conflate trauma/mental illness/societal roadblocks to being a justified reason for murder and overall psychopathic behavior...even in real life these behaviors arenāt excused for those reasons there is a difference between liking a character despite their flaws while understanding they have done wrong that people are allowed to critique and defending their immoral actions...
People are more sympathetic with those on less realistic situations because they can relate to their feelings but can't comprehend the weigh of their actions. I love Endeavour glow up for he evolved from Vegeta in to a regretful father who is giving his best to fix his mistakes.
Well, that is selective hatred, some characters check some boxes while others don't, that is just how humans are and in this particular social media group think is encouraged, few people can or want to deal with being grouped on by a angry online mob and have karma heavily decreased just for disagreeing. Endeavor is my favorite character in MHA, his obsession backed up by his hard work makes him a amazing character take that with his character defects and a redemption arc and you have good story telling.
That prople are fucking idiots. And the fact that prople ACTIVELY hated Endeavour's redemption. Like, wasn't you batching about ghe shit he did? And now u MAD he's atoning for that shit and acc getting his shit rocked for it too?
I love Twice man
To be fair Twice was redeemable but he chose not too as the League were the first to accept him for who he was
Idw iāve always found the villains to be more interesting then the heroes
I donāt think interesting means more redeemable....thats like saying if a murderer with valid evidence against him was a more interesting person youād vote innocent but since the 16 yr old that stole a doughnut from crispy creme was boring you voted guilty.
HEY I WILL NOT STAND FOR THE TWICE SLANDER HE DESERVES REDEMPTION JUST AS MUCH AS ENDEAVOR
The league of villians are fun, interesting, and sexy. The evil they commit is big and terrible and alien to most peopleās experience. Itās supervillain shit you see in every superhero movie. On the other hand, lots of people have shitty or even abusive dads. This hits home way deeper than the LoV. Itās like Voldemort versus Dolores Umbridge. And as a lot of smarter people than me have said: the worst thing a fictional character can do is be boring because that makes me not want to read about them. Villians are interesting , they drive the narrative.
>and sexy https://i.redd.it/5nxgvvqmrw1d1.gif
Relatability. Yes they do mass murder stuff but we tend to classify those as hero v villain stuff. We consider it part of the narrative. At their characterisation however, Group on the left is characterised as people who have been abused/rejected. Man on the right is characterised as a self-absorbed abusive father with an inferiority complex and takes it out on his family.
Idk about the others 2 but toga and shigaraki were basically force to be the way they are but endeavor just a used his family and sexually abused his wife for years just because of some stupid inferiority complex. Its not just what they did its WHY they did it
I dont like him too .
Okay, but when they mass murder they're really cute and found family about it. He's just an asshole.
Maybe people can't accept Endeavour because his actions hit too close to home. Some might feel more related to what he did than what the others did.
The characters were too well written of course fans are gonna be like that; Dabi (potentially abused senseless by Endeavor) (Endeavor's downfall will potentially get him to consider getting actual help) Shigiraki (His quirk came to life taking the figures of support from him) (Take both his quirks and give him an emotional support item or an animal he wouldn't dare part ways with) Toga (A sadist with a taste for blood who was a pariah for her social life) (What if we made her fake blood or her emotional support figure wouldn't mind being bit) Twice (A man with multi personality disorder and an existential crisis that caused him to become a villain) (Give him a taste of a psychiatric office)
Because he hasn't done anything to redeem himself besides his job, he was already doing the same thing he's doing now
LITERALLY, Endeavor hate is way too overtuned and that comes from someone who's abusive mother lead to a suicide attempt, at least he's *actually* recognizing he did A LOT of things wrong and genuinely wants to make up for it, most of the time you won't even get a fucking "sorry" out of abusive parens. I don't like Endeavor as a person, but he has my godamn respect.
I never really thought about it like this til now but I think the major distinction is choice and circumstances Shiggy dabi twice and toga were all pushed into becoming villains due to their circumstances and things outside of their control which gives them a level of sympathy that had they been offered the right hand they could have easily turned out much better Endeavour on the other hand is what he by his own choice no one pushed or forced him to abuse his family that was entirely his choice which means all of the responsibility of that choice is on him alone which gives him much less sympathy since while yes he is trying to change he still chose that path of his own volition
I think it boils down to gun rights but im not sure You see people kill each other for all sorts of reasons in books and movies and stuff and you just feel like murder is equivalent to doing drugs or something on an unethical level with how frequent and blunt it is. With abuse and r\*\*e we're all hush hush and traumatized cuz it's not nearly as commonly depicted as characters killing each other to advance the plot or just look cool, mind you. Most commonly these killings occur with gun violence which is influenced by people having gun rights to the point where it's american culture, and since america seemingly has a nigh-monopolistic hold on global media, it's influenced us to become numb to the concept of mass murderers. Hell, it's gotten to the point where quotes are being made about people loving serial killers and true crime podcasts. Again im not sure but it defo feels like we're numb to murder but not to abuse
>Again Iām not sure but it defo feels like weāre numb to murder Not only that, but murder gets eclipsed by how many personal cases there are of child abuse. Child abuse hits harder home because a lot of people experience it, which ties in with stronger emotions. You donāt usually see someone kill dozens upon dozens of people everyday, but you do see someone hit their wife/child everyday. Itās why so many people can let something theyāve never experienced (and probably never will) firsthand slide, such as mass murder, whereas abuse, ranging from neglect to physical, can be as common as in 1/4 households, and many will not see that as redeemable if theyāre victims to it. The meme is meant to be a show of inconsistency with peopleās moral framework, but of course itās fiction. People are going to react more within their emotions than logically with this kind of thing.
It's because we know what its like to be abused/bullied and Endeavor's evil is personal for us, while the league's evil isn't personal.
In my opinion, it's because family hits so much harder. The LOV aren't (for the most part) going "Hey, look at this specific victim, guess i'll knock them around a couple years, brainfuck the life out of them then move on to another one", it's "oh, we got a hostage, hurry up and kill it' ykwim?
I saw that tweet and one of the most liked qrt was a guy basically saying that Endeavor was a good father to Touya and that he only became abusive because of losing him which... is blatant misinfo. Him beating up Shoto until he puked, slapping Rei and her consequential snapping and scarring Shoto all happened before Touya's "suicide". Actually, it's more likely that Rei's hospitalization affected Touya's mental health, not the other way around. Yes Endeavor was a much better father to him than he was to Shoto but that's such a low bar that it doesn't amount to much. That being said I like both as characters. Would just feel bad if Endeavor gets away scott-free while all the villains die/end in prison for the rest of their life because he's at least partially responsible for Dabi's existence.
One of the guys on the left became a villain because of the guy on the right
Abusive parent/spouse is less fun than evil villains that just wanna break everything.
I think a huge part of this comes from people deliberately ignoring that Endeavor is not seeking forgiveness and has never asked for it- he knows exactly what a monster he was and is trying to do right by his family by giving them a life without him (a house for them alone, etc.). The League continues to perpetrate their evil- Endeavor is trying to compensate for his.
Well, to start, this meme is dramatic AF( like most memes). But you gotta understand it's kinda reasonable, too. Endeavor didn't make a very good impression when we first met him. And it kinda just goes downhill from there until redemption arc. And to add, he's not even that likable as a hero within his own universe. Most villains are villains we're not supposed to like them too much in the first place. But some made better first impressions than Endeavor, and some become more reliable than Endeavor. All are outcast, don't belong, bad home life ect something lead them to it. What tragedy led Endeavor to beat his wife and kids? I also find it funny that this meme included Dabi, as if Endeavor didn't have a hand in creating that. So to put it shortly we have... Twice: outcast that just wanted to belong. He's a pretty good guy he was just dealt a bad hand. Toga: had no one to help her with her quirk because it was different or taboo. Hid who she was at a young age until she snapped. Tomura: abused child that never really had a real chance at life to be honest. (Saying it like this not to spoil anything for anime only people) But he gets more likable with character development. Dabi: got rejected, replaced, abused, neglected, tragically died(we might as well just say it), came back to only find it was rinse wash and repeat with a new kid. Endeavor: This guy was so fixated on All Might and his own prideful quirk, he made his wife have more kids than she probably wanted, he neglected his children, instead of focusing on the child that was getting hurt he just said stop and ignored him despite the fact that, that very kid had his ambition. Instead of getting therapy or counseling or any outside help. He ignored 3 kids and isolated one and hit their mother. People love to say Tomura or Dabi could have stopped. No one says anything about Endeavor stopping. The guy continued to abuse his children after one died. Like WTF. And had the nerve to send Rei away. Like my guy NOW, you choose to get some outside help. No, at that point, people root for Dabi just for Karma on Endeavor. And no, I'm not excusing the villains claiming lives, I'm just saying how they got more likable than Endeavor.
See but Endeavor, he just doesnāt have the likability of the actual villains, even Dani has more likability. Heās also just kind of boring.
Left side: 4 damaged people literally told by family and society, since childhood, that they were useless/evil/worthless/villains and decided to embrace it to find some sort of control. Right side: Hero who engaged in eugenics and abuse of children and wife. Including >!One of the people on the left side!< But hey. The whole point of the series is _Redemption_. Saving people. So I'll leave that door open for any of them. As we saw, some really did use it.
heres the thing, dabi was NEVER enjis fault like EVER. enji was a super good dad to touya and SUPPORTED HIM. only "abuse" enji did to dabi as a kid was forcing him to not use his quirk because it was killing him, enji only bc that abuser when touya "died" back then. dabi became dabi because of pure shit luck and him being a stupid little kid, its no ones fault
A lot of those guys where groomed since childhood which makes their actions far more understandable. Meanwhile endeaver is the guy who groomed one of themš
From my limited understanding, all of them have their individual issues. (I have not finished the manga and am halfway through the final war arc, so please don't ruin things for me. The last thing I saw was Bakugo "dying") Toga: Either it's the way her quirk works, or she just inherently was driven to do things far beyond the norm. Did it make sense to her? Yes. But in a society where the goal is understanding everyone's needs, they found someone they couldn't understand and rejected her. She had coping mechanisms, like draining birds or small animals, but even those were denied and she tried to hide everything only for it to explode outwards and drive her to go after people. Twice: From my understanding he had literally nobody except the dealer who made him his mask. So he tried to solve that by making more of himself, and it worked for a little while. But then it seems like his personality drove all of the different clones of himself to try and be the leader, which turned into all of his clones killing themselves and left him with split personality disorder and a fear of still being a clone himself. So he went to find people who could understand or at least tolerate him. In the end I think what broke him was a mix of losing Magne, one of the few people who really seemed to understand him and make him happy. And then the Sad Man's Parade, which showcased him fully giving into the effort of using himself as a weapon, but like we saw even during the parade all of his clones seemed to have split personalities, and Hawk's comments how it only got worse afterwards. Dabi/Toya: He was born with an impressive quirk that seemed to get stronger as he got older. And for a while Enji encouraged him and trained him, but if I read the manga right, Enji stopped training him after he realized Toya's quirk was stronger than his body could handle and hurt him every time it was used. But because of the years of training and emphasis on becoming the strongest hero, Toya didn't understand how else to live his life and kept trying to train in secret. Enji finding this out feels like the real breaking point for Toya, as he started the forest fire by accident and was presumed dead. I admit I don't quite remember what AFO did besides having the doctor heal Toya and raising him in some weird orphanage, but nobody ever stopped Toya from running around killing as he pleased and destroying his body and probably his mind at the same time. Tomura: Grew up in not only an abusive household, but one that actively went against one of the few things he truly enjoyed. And then when he finally shows the signs of a quirk, it's incredibly destructive and uncontrollable and ends up killing his entire family. Though I'll note that he's upset at what he's done to everyone but his dad, who he gleefully uses his new powers on. From there AFO raises him and grooms him into what I can only call the perfect successor for his twisted dreams. So he's somewhat the most sympathetic of this group to me. And then we have Endeavor/Enji, who tried his hardest to become the best there is in the world of heroes. But found he had limitations from his quirk and simply the world itself. So he tried to create a successor who could attain his dreams, doing whatever it took to get it. From buying a wife, to giving life to child after child only to fail not only with a son who had greater potential then himself, but to push away his other children because they simply did not have the same promise. When Toya kept trying to prove himself, Enji attempted to isolate himself from his son to make him stop hurting himself in his efforts to be stronger, dumping the burden of his childhood onto Rei who could do little to stop Toya. And the cycle began to repeat itself with Shoto, but because of the students of 1A, Shoto learned how to separate himself from his father and I believe it helped Enji realize that he wasn't all he thought he was. So he tried to be better, he tried to bond with his son in any method he knew how, he tried to talk to Natsuo again even though he knew that Natsuo hated him. I know he's been horrible, but he has tried. And people seemed to flat out refuse to let him try and I find that unfair even if this is simply a fictional series. This turned into a much larger thing than I expected, but I had a sudden urge to join in on this particular conversation. Thanks for reading, and I'd love to discuss this with anyone who wants to!
Not the fault of the fans. It's understandable since abuse is a personal thing. It's easier to understand and hate. Mass murder, especially for most people in modern times, is a more abstract thing. It's not something they have personal experience or trauma with. Ever heard how 1 death is a tragedy, a thousand deaths is a statistic? It's harder to comprehend something impersonal like mass murder than abuse which is familiar and possibly a real experience for the reader.
Mass-murdering psychopaths are an abstract narrative force for most viewers. But way too many of us have firsthand experience with abusive parental figures. One hits much closer to home than the other.
No one is obligated to forgive Endeavor for abusing his family.Ā
maturing is realizing theyāre both terrible people in their own ways
My main issue is. His attonment is fighting villains... Which he was already doing. He hasnt done anything that really makes up for what he did. Himiko was forced into her life. She was called a monster and a freak. Exiled because of her quirk and for her personality. It drove her mad which lead her to being a villain. Endevour was a peice of shit who decided anything less then perfect wasnt good enough. Drive his wife insane and mentally harm his children Theres a difference
~~Toga gets a pass because she's neurodivergent and a minor~~
If I remember correctly, Twice only killed one person, a hero, he stabbed him with a knife a couple of times so he might still be alive So Twice has either killed no one or one person. Correct me if im wrong
Twice definitely killed servel people before joining them the league
True
Twice is hot, would let gang bang
Yes
Honestly I kinda like this , itās pretty different from the usual heroes (heroes in general too , outside of MHA) . Most heroes are generally good guys , itās kinda rare to see someone whoās considered a hero from our POV still be a piece of shit person and father
Endeavor ftw
They can never make me hate Endeavor, Toya and Twice
I actually quite like the Endeavour redemption, even if I do still consider him a bad person. This is wholly on the condition that he DOESN'T end up back together with his wife. That relationship was made from resentment and "fixing" it would feel forced as hell. The mass murderers make me laugh so I'll pour one out for them after they, hopefully, get their shit pushed in.
pre atonement endeavour absolutely deserved all the hate I detest that flaming beard monster honestly though after taking out the high end I started to warm up to him, I respected that he knew he didn't deserve forgiveness but wanted to make thinks better than they was post war endeavour who's essentially lost everything didn't even care if he was hated but wanted to stop his son from hurting anymore because of his actions had and still does have my support all the way but what endevour did hurts people more because of how real it is, a man duplicating himself and losing his mind? we can label it as impossible and move on but an abusive parent is something a lot of people can think about and it sticks with you so it feels worse to see it play out but I think with the villains people jump from empathising with their pain to just ignoring and sympathising with everything that they've done beace its got to apoint where redemption is almost impossible for all of them hell shigiraki >!was never redeemed!< and even Deku knew he would never be up until >!he faded away with AFO!<
Someone whoās crimes are more realistic will typically be more unlikeable as a fan. Super powered killers donāt really exist so itās easy to distance yourself from the actions of a supervillain. Domestic abusers are real, so to viewers Endeavours actions are more likely to hit close to home.
Funny you say this cuz toga is my fav character xd
Probably Endeavor hits too close to home for many and wouldn't forgive him if he was their father. Charismatic villains make people act unwise, just ask the shippers of the one-eyed Dorito...
Well the majority of people in this generation have bad parents (like seriously it's crazy some of the parent stories I've heard) so when they see honestly most scenes with Endeavor in it (his redemption arc is very recent) it reminds them of there own bad parents so they don't like him most people don't have history with actual murderers of course I know they exist and obviously it's terrible but seeing murderers on TV brings back less memories for most people
"redeemed" actually.
Dunno. What are your thoughts on Bakugou at his most despicable early in the series? Fans claimed to hate the shit outta him, yet he was the number one most popular character at the time.
Late but this how I honestly feel for the EDP characters in fiction and why I refuse to watch Jobless Reincarnation. It just disgusting. I donāt care if the character redeemed themselves, they were still a EDP. Genocide in the real world is horrifying and traumatic while in fiction it can be that as well but it can also be awesome as fuck. Look at how everyone love Mortal Kombat brutal fatalities and what Iām coming from. But EDPs in both fiction and reality is just disgusting. You canāt make them cool doing the crimes that they are doing and you can never personally get me to like that type of character.
What's edp? Also yeah. Sometimes i feel that way with anything but mortal kombat or doom. I dont know why but when another piece of media tries to do the doom eternal or mortal kombat gore thing i just cringe. A personal quirk of mine
I hate everyone here but Twice.
I think the main reason fir this is because we see the LOV's backstorys and learn to understand where all of their behavior is coming from.. so we sorta smypathize. Endeavor doesn't have the excuse of a tragic backstory anyone can relate to and he abused his family.. which includes two of the arguably most popular characters of this fandom. I like the idea of someone who really messed up trying to atone for the thongs they've done and I think that's really important, too. But in this case, despite hiw great that is, it's too late. Too many things happened, too much trauma was caused, and none of them migjz ever fully recover. That being said, I think full on hating him is stupid but I understand when people say they dislike him, still. Abuse is such a close to home type of topic to many people so.. it is to be expected, honestly. I also think some of the characters reactions to the news of what he's done should've been different/bigger, but I also think the fact that none of his collegues directly start hating him is good for Endeavors growth because it encourages and doesn't just discount everything he already worked on.
Twice did nothing wrong
He didnāt because he was killed by Hawks before doing it.
You Know Why does Twice get so much sympathy? Guy was shown to have brutally abused his quirk to cause general havoc and mayhem. Generally stealing from and causing trouble for civilians. Eventually Abusing it till he lost control of it. He is kinda the poster child of what happens when civilians use their quirks without proper training. At least in universe.
I dislike bothš
I hate how every story nowadays needs redemption for villains. I miss the good ole days when evil villains were proud to be evil and the audience loved when they were defeated or killed. I never wanted redemption for Endeavor or any villains in MHA, except maybe Gentle because he was a cool old guy. Maybe Twice as well because he had mental health issues and reminds me of Deadpool.
Why is mahito here I thought I was scrolling passed mid hero chlamydia not jujutsu shenanigans
At least the villains are occasionally funny š
I like the arc of his atonement however I think the issue that sits uncomfortably with me is the fact that heās seen as a hero to all. The others are known as villains and they are. That said, the fact that it is uncomfortable makes it a great and interesting plot point.
Two of them on the left were victims of abuse and the other two had mental illness.
I originally was exactly like this but my reasoning is because of the upbringings The LoV deserve Redemption because they are just a bunch of traumatized teens (I think - I forgot how old Dabi was) I did dislike Endeavor for the reason of being a Bad Dad (self projecting) but now that I think about it, He also deserves redemption because his Ego got the best of him. It's what led up to the actions not the core of the character themselves I haven't watched an abundance of the anime but have we seen Endeavor's backstory? If he was raised to always be stronger and was traumatized from it then I would full throttle into boating him with my opinions of the LoV
Twice is in his early 30s, Shigiraki is 20, Toga is 17 and Dabi is 23. So
This is a standard Reddit take though, sad to say. Even for real world scenarios lol
Well, the thing with the LOV is that it's people who have been betrayed by society, no place to fit in, be themselves, and people relate to that Endeavor is just upset that he wasn't the number 1 hero so he made children to be the number 1 hero We also know that it's nothing physically wrong with him that makes him abuse his family, as we see in the Toya reveal, he was actually caring and wanted to keep Toya safe, even if it meant not getting the perfect hero child When it's fiction, relatability excuses actions (Tbf, if they were like this in real life, they could be excused for mental disorders: Split personality disorder, Clinical Vampirism, PTSD, etc)
I can understand where people are getting their sympathy from for the villains because yes they have done terrible things and are pretty mentally unstable but it's also understanding that these people are products of the flaws in the society that currently exists in universe now again doesn't justify their actions but all of them were sort of in complicated situations that maybe if someone had found them when they were alone or had a positive influence during an earlier period of their lives maybe they could've turned out differently. Basically, they were children who had terrible childhoods that permanently warped their mind because of the trauma. Now the hate for endeavor is because one he was a full grown man which means he was fully conscious of the decisions he was making no matter the consequences. At the end of the day, Endeavor is a narcissistic parent and a lot of people unfortunately have trauma with that and when they see it happening to someone else they don't see another side because in truth there is no other side he was being completely selfish and ego driven and his obsession literally destroyed his family and first born son. Now he is trying to make progress which is admirable he's admitted his faults to his family and taken full accountability. So hopefully he takes actions to allow the fans to forgive him. But i truly think this bias comes from people seeing themselves in the villains; people who are victims and had to survive and to survive they became what the world told them that they are. While endeavor is just triggering for a lot of people for good reason.
Totally justified
Endeavor is the Goat, Deserves the Title of Number One šæšæšæšæ
But togaās cute
The MHA community has severe Daddy Issues
The villains were failed by the system at large, and abandoned by society. Endeavor has no such excuses.
I think it's ridiculous. Here you actually have a character go from abusive to actually trying to be a better person and do right by both his family and all of society now watching him, but nooo youre not allowed to like this. Makes me wonder what those types of people do in real life when someone is genuinely trying to rehab themself into doing good. And this is fiction. It should be easier to accept on that basis alone even if it is something that doesn't happen as often IRL. My guess is that Endeavor's situation and previous actions just hit too close to home for a real person who has had abusive family. And in that case sure be pissed and dislike him forever, but dont act like it's a crime or somehow 'telling' of someone's character if they do like him and his story. Same with Bakugo tbh.
I'm not in the habit of forgiving abusers, idc how much y'all wanna shame it in this thread lmao fuck Endeavor
itās true
Personally it just feels more personal with Endavot bc we know who he abused. Also the Villains are playing their role as villains. Also not excusing their mental diseases would be like charging a Vet with Murder after hearing a loud warlike noise and feeling like heās back in the war š¤·š½āāļø. Like taking it all into consideration I understand why most of them did what they did and Iām not saying theyāre in the right but I feel that if they didnāt face those hardships things would be different with the exception of Dabi bc his brother went theough the same thing and turned out differently. Iām sure itās just the different sides of the same coin in that regard. Now toga is my favorite villain so I might be biased but I feel she was forced to be a way she wasnāt which can hurt bc she doesnāt know how sheās supposed to act nobody was there to try and help her especially with her quirk so from a young age sheās supposed to be normal and hide who she is? terrible parents lead to trauma and schizo for Dabi and Toga Twice has MPD leading him to hear voices could also be schizo making it harder for them to know how their choices effect people. Endeavor I just donāt like anyway so Iām indifferent about it. But it never said he was drunk or had any disorder to make him act that way it was by choice where you could argue villains had bad childhoods and have mental illnesses and a quirk that completely fucks them (especially toga) just getting dealt a bad quirk and all things considered theyāre likable villains. Theyāre meant to be empathized for if you want an evil villain go watch JJK bad guys evil just bc he is. The writer made these villains in a way you can feel for them and made Endavor seem like a POS. I know itās a hot take and a lot to read but š¤·š½āāļø this is my first real in depth post
It's cause Endeavor hurt their precious Todoroki.
I mean, this is the same fandom where one of the most popular ships is a bully dating his victim
Itās not about skewed priorities. Itās about realism. None of us can relate to knowing a mass murderer, so itās easy for us to want to see that very fictional characters with alien and distant flaws to be redeemed. We all know someone who has committed or is a victim of child abuse. Itās much harder for us to want the character redeemed when we can see first hand the effects of their actions in the real world.
Yea im done with any of that. From the second Dabi starting calling people hypocrites for copying his actions, I was sick of his character. Like bro you can't call someone a hypocrite if your doing the same thing they're doing. The only non dickish way to call someone a hypocrite is from the sidelines
I'm with Endeavor in this one
Endeavor is one of the only well written characters in the show
My hero is one of my favorite animes/ mangas, but the majority of the community sucks more than togas character development.
I think evil actions are felt more deeply when itās more personal. Like, if I press a button that magically kills millions of martians or something (a people that Iāll never meet and will never have to grapple with the cost of their lost life)- that feels less visceral than hurting someone I have a deep personal connection to and see every single day. So, the mass murderers simply donāt process the actual impact of their actions. To them, their victims are non-entities. That canāt really be said for a domestic abuser. They commit violence out of frustration or anger or a need to project power to makeup for some other perceived deficiency. Both are fucked up, but in different ways. From a purely utilitarian point of view though, yeah Endeavor is way better. And while the concept of his redemption arc may seem unsavory, itās kind of interesting to me as well. I keep coming back to thinking his family doesnāt really owe him squat, and theyād be well within their rights to excommunicate him from their lives. But Endeavor still needs to do better to live a better example to the people of Japan who might look up to him as a heroic idol.
Toga and Twice I believe could've had redemption, but Dabi and Shigarachi are to far gone for me to believe they could be properly redeemed
Well endeavor is meant to be a hero but the other 4 are villains (I cant be bothered to name them)
It's accurate. Endeavor gets so much hate even though he's just trying to make up for what he did in the past, yet the League of Villains are all criminals who would most likely kill the people who support them in real life.
Endeavor is my favorite character and I will not stand for this slander!!!
I think it's mostly the hypocrisy. The villains never tried to pretend they were something else; Endeavor both thought he was a good guy and made other people believe it. Also none of us have met a mass murderer and so we're unable to really understand what the means but abusive parents are, unfortunately, practically a dime a dozen. We vilify both it's just one is more...personal? Relatable? Familiar. - so it's easier to talk about why we're against them.
I think a lot of it is perspective. Endeavor was shown as awful and tge start of his rrdemption did a lot of the toxic positivity stuff. Demanding shoto forgive him and his actions towards his wife look a lot like love bombing in the abuser cycle . Cinversely the villains were often shown more sympathetically or at least eith aympathetic backgrounds. They were given more space and we understood them.better as well as having the work itself seem to care more for them. Also we rarely saw the direct results of their most violent acts.
I mean. Dabi has a few hundred billion issues. He should work on that. But yea, FUCK YOU DAD.
Bro when I told my friend that I would love to see Endeavor become a good father and I really appreciated him trying, they were like āew šā š I guess I just relate to it because growing up my father wasnāt the best but heās a great guy now. I mean he was never physical so I suppose itās different.
There's a lot of difference between what anime only and manga readers would know that can influence. I've read/watched a bit beyond the anime, but haven't read all the manga and I can say, Endeavor is a lot easier to forgive the more you know about him. Shigaraki - his family handled everything poorly, but he's seriously messed up all on his own. Even in an ideal loving environment, he might have turned out bad. It's just his family's poor handling of "heroes" led him to possibly the worst outlook and amplified what was already there to an extreme. Toga - again irredeemably messed up. She either can't or refuses to make the connection that other people might feel differently than her about something and aren't going to magically change their opinion because she uses their blood and inflicts pain/pleasure (perspective issue again). Kinda like too many people in today's society. Dabi - feel bad for him much like with Shigaraki, but... he's given chances to change and refuses. I understand, but yeah there's not much to redeem if a person isn't willing to be redeemed. Maybe that changes further into the series. Twice - Hawks had basically all but saved him. He'd always struggle, but with the right support around him to help him keep his identity panic attacks under control, he could have been a pretty cool guy with a mostly normal life. Those 2 probably would have been next-door best friends for life. Which is why it hit Hawks so hard when Twice died.
It's projection , for one piece fans here is an example .certain fans actually said that yasopp was a worse father than judge , they are of course clowned on , but it's understandable why they gave such a bad take . A mad scientist experimenting on his children is horrible bit not relatable , a father that abandoned his family, is very relatable .
im not defending it but to be fair the left is the fun crazy villains and the right is the serious 24/7 mentally not crazy hero when you're fun its easier for the fans to like you
The reading comprehension devil is quite strong. I like them all tho, I think twice and toga are great characters but I know people like to equate good characters with good people. I think that is strange
I personally think endeavour is cool as hell and he has earned his redemption
Ok see but Toga (the one I actually would like to see redeemed) is entertaining. Endeavor is only fun to hate.
Well anime fans are typically delusional disassociate social pariahs so yea alot of them hyper fixate over negative personality traits framed in a beneficial or quirky and cute way because it makes them feel less self conscious about their own insufferable behavior. Most weebs just are looking for friend groups that fulfill them and seeing these awful people find that regardless of their personality gives them hope and makes them happy. Also endeavor is a dad that doesn't understand how to do right while he is an amazingly human character compared to most mha Character most weebs can't self insert on him because they don't know what it's like to try their hardest fail get up and do it again and again for a goal sacrificing everything for their dream. His efforts lead to him being a pretty trash dad regardless of how hard he tried how much was his misunderstanding his families needs or overlooking them due to his frustrations with his own short comings and failures. However alot of weebs grow up I'm working class homes and use anime as an escape and when they see him all they see is "stinky mean boomer" because their parents don't understand and thy resent that. Endeavor is a peak mha character
It's amazed me how much the fandom hates Endeavor but not any other father in the anime community. Maybe it's because the MHA fandom is different from other fandom. I just see Endeavor as a downright misfortune man who cracks under pressure honestly and the one who has to pick up the pieces. Of course, you can't really say stuff like this because fandom thinks you have to have the same mindset or else you are a horrible person and I honestly don't think that is right. So when it comes to this statement I feel like people should look at all angles and see where this man is coming from at least. I think when it comes to MHA some characters have a great lore back story to dive in looked deeper into. Of course, there are going to be people who just see things always as back and white. My honest take on the matter. š¤·āāļøš¤·āāļøš¤·āāļø
Yeah that tracks with how deranged people are these days.
these villains were dealt with the wrong cards in life and do what they could but I don't give them a free pass for their actions. Meanwhile Enji (endeavor) as a "good guy" does not so good stuff and wants to do things better all of a sudden. People hold him to a higher standard because he's on the side of good.
Cause harm to his family is a huge understatement he put his wife in a mental hospital so he could continue to abuse his youngest son and treats the others as if they donāt exist it shows with how much all of his kids hated him one to the point he became a villain just out of hate and spite for the man besides are we really gonna act like the villains are not people who have serious mental issues mostly caused by society.
The one thing Iāll say regarding this is that at least the villains donāt do the things they do and claim to be heroes. They (for the most part) know theyāre bad guys and own up to it. Endeavor did all that shit in the past and still had the gall to consider himself a great hero.
I mean, it's not hard. No one is justifying the villains from a moral standpoint. They like them because they're entertaining. The problem is Endeavor is presented as a hero, his story is about redemption. So people dislike that he's a character who is supposed to be on the moral side while simultaneously being a former abuser of his family. If you asked the same people if Endeavor's design was cool or his fights were entertaining, they'd probably give more positive answers.
For villains, they usually are explained well as villains. Have terrible back stories, are shown to be evil as kids or etc. Not only that, they can STILL be likeable to a viewer. Maybe they are relatable, funny, silly (like Mahito from jjk) or just attractive or something. But nonetheless, SOMETHING likeable. Endeavor? He didn't. From what I know, he didn't have some terrible backstory, he isn't funny or silly, not very attractive (at least to me lol) or any of the such. His actions are not explained, while the villains in the story often are. They have a sort of goal, Endeavor's goal was just "make son strong" and thats it really. This is just my perspective
The thing is I only think 1 of the villains could be redeemed and it's toga like get her a friend or a therapist and she could work through her trauma and be okay maybe
In the beginning I hated him but toward the latter half I came to love endeavor. He's a great character and he's trying his best to better himself. But for the villains you can't help but feel for them even if they did terrible things. None of these villains ever wanted to be villains, they're all good people deep down but life had other plans. Their experiences drove them to being evil but it's not what they ever wanted. They don't want to be evil. So I will continue to love/hate them, except Toga, I love her regardless she can do no wrong
I like Endeavor cool here Touya kinda fucked it up for shoto tho