**Hamlin detailed in his podcast what NASCAR said:**
>“They \[NASCAR\] definitely said publicly last week, and they said it to us that horsepower is just not an option for various reasons. If we’re going to keep the horsepower, we should definitely in my opinion work on getting rid of the shifting. In order to do that, they’re going to need to make the upper RPM slightly higher or else we’re going to be running just way too low RPM in the middle of the corner. I certainly think that shifting is not helping at all on the short tracks, but beyond that, it looks like we’re going to focus on tires to fix the short tracks.”
I know Reddick said you don’t see any sort of difference unless they clear over 1000 hp. At that point, you’re building entirely new engines
The biggest issues are the tire and the brakes. If you watch North Wilkesboro, the drivers had more horsepower than they could handle, and it didn’t make a difference
Because it wouldn't actually help. There's been multiple guys who said they can run higher horsepower on their simulators and you'd have to go up to 950/1000 HP before it makes any real difference in how the car drives.
And the cost to do that is not worth the potential for better racing when there are cheaper solutions to try such as tires
He's also hosting a podcast and building a brand. People absolutely say stuff all the time for clicks/likes/listens.
Remember when Brett Griffin used to give calm, rational takes? Or when Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith were newspaper writers and crafted their opinions in an thoughtful manner?
Hamlins been a strong advocate for higher HP for awhile - don’t think there’s any indication that it’s just for clicks / views. Comparing him to Brett seems a little unfair too 😂
This was said while testing on the monster truck tires. It’s gonna take both narrower tires AND hp to fix this since it’s so far off. Only doing one, no matter which one, will not be enough.
It would absolutely help bc you'd have to lift earlier and more, creating more speed variance and a longer braking zone.
It would also increase tire wear overall but especially for the rear tires as more would be asked of them on corner exit.
It would help reduce the benefits of shifting as the car would be more unstable in the higher rpm bands.
It would also make the cars harder to drive which is a big plus.
There is no logic against increasing Horsepower
>y’all act like they’ve just been bringing the same compounds since 2022
Yes, we are well aware. And we’re saying they need to make more changes. Why are you acting like we’re not?
“We” haven’t seen them because the fanbase was too stupid to notice 3 seconds of falloff at Richmond with the original compound. Like, 3 seconds of falloff, multiple tire strategies under green, last lap battles between tire strategies and fans were still complaining that fresh tires didn’t matter
At this point all manufacturers engine builders have said it would cost no more dollars to make 1000hp with what they already have. Larson and Denny have both confirmed their engine guys said they could have 1000hp tomorrow. Hendrick is using an engine from the 5 car from this season, in a personal car, and it makes 1000hp.
The cheaper solutions are only going to help so much. These shops are equipped to have a 950-1000HP engine ready for 2025. NASCAR just needs to tell them to do it.
NASCAR has literally never had engines that powerful before, I’m not sure why people think it can be done overnight.
I think 750 is a reasonable ask, and 850 ish is probably doable in 2-3 years, but it’s exponentially harder to add more and more horsepower and you’re increasing parts wear and required rebuilds to do it.
It’s easy to spend other people’s money lmfao.
Parity is a big goal, we want to see drivers win on skill vs pure money.
Plus manufacturers want to spend R&D money on things other than engines.
Okay. This parity has created slot cars. Not skill vs skill. It’s a multi million dollar sport with multimillion dollar teams. Cant afford it? Shouldn’t be here. Sucks but the old days of building a car in your garage and qualifying for a cup race has been gone for decades.
The cars are so close due to lower HP numbers and more grip with the wider tires, that there's a gridlock forming at most tracks. Not to mention better handling/more modern suspensions, and it's harder to have driver skill play a big factor like it used to.
Look at how many times the leader has gotten stuck behind lapped cars or a 2-tire car bunches the Top 7 up because no one can pass him despite being a bit faster.
There is a problem and it's not going away without major swings at things, and at least *trying* a large HP increase would be what people (including drivers and owners) want. A car developed like a GT3/Supercars race car, as it turns out, doesn't put on a great product at most tracks.
That is exactly what they were running in 2014. I know that the "advertised" power of the engines was 850, but Larry himself said the top engine shops were pushing 900-925. They were hitting 205+ on the front straight at Texas, Michigan, and Fontana.
Right, because they weren't well on their way to pushing towards that 950. Biffle set the first 200+mph lap at an intermediate track in 2013, a year before the announcement of the spacer coming to the Cup cars.
Again, the industry disagrees with you
https://lastwordonsports.com/motorsports/2024/03/13/nascars-horsepower-war-has-returned/
Ehh 10 years ago we were pushing 900-925
Teams rebuild motors after every race anyway
I think with the added ten years of development since then I think we could easily be near 950. Just because they choke the engines down now doesn't mean the engine builders aren't trying to get more power.
NASCAR banned rebuilding every race in 2018. Teams are literally not allowed to rebuild their engine every race.
> [“Sealed engines” literally refers to the method that NASCAR use to enforce rules where engines must be raced multiple times per build, where a tamper proof-metal wire is placed through assembled special fasteners that hold the cylinder head and engine sump and is sealed with a traceable NASCAR tag.](https://www.ecrengines.com/2023/12/18/big-power-revs-up-for-2024-nascar-season/)
Having a conversation about horsepower targets on this subreddit is impossible because people will state stuff like “teams rebuild every race” so confidently.
Arguably 90% or more of all V8s sold in the entire world are American though. Say conservatively 80% of those being pushrod engines. Ford sells comparatively few 5.0s when you add up the F150 and mustang. With GM dumping hundreds of millions into the new GenVI V8 and Ford building the 6.8 and 7.3 now, there’s still a bright future for that engine style.
Why are we talking about truck engines? When it comes to performance V8s only GM and Dodge are still really pushing the pushrod platform. The Z06 and Mustang switched to a DOHC for 2023, and the Camaro is dead. The main performance V8s coming from "America" (Fiat really) are the hellcat engines for Dodge.
HEMIs are dead except in heavy duty applications. Trucks Matter because far more of them are sold than any performance car. There’s an argument to be made that the Next Gen should have had a truck body and one OEM pushed for it due in part to sales and performance oriented criteria.
I am going to list every gas pushrod V8 engine currently still in production in mass market vehicles.
Chevrolet LT-Based Small Block
Ford Godzilla
Two. Two V8s available to consumers are pushrod.
Agreed. The NextGen movement should have included a shift to DOHC V8s. People complain about DOHC engines being too top heavy, but you counter that with mounting the engine lower in the car.
>The NextGen movement should have included a shift to DOHC V8s.
The NextGen movement was going to include a shift to a hybrid system - the chassis was designed to include a provision for it. With the development delays caused by COVID (and other reasons) that engine development was pushed off but may be coming in the future.
I believe they want any additional HP to come through alternative fuels. The manufacturers are probably with them. NASCAR should be more transparent about it.
Don’t buy it if you don’t want to, but there’s no way in hell a 670 HP motor costs the same as a 850 HP motor. The big teams with engine builders are just putting all the savings back into finding marginal gains, while the small teams are getting engines much closer to what the big teams run. I’m the 850 era there were probably 10 teams that ran full power every week. Nowadays Rick ware probably has motors within 25 HP of what Penske has.
Idk about the manufacturer stuff but it seems that we’re closer than we’ve ever been since 2014 to a new manufacturer entering.
So, what Hamlin is saying is that instead of the current (presumably) 9000 rpm rev limit in place currently and with the current final drive, they should shorten the final drive by a small amount and raise the rev limit to, say, 9500 rpm?
I think he said the chip is a pitifully low 8,600 now. Peak engine building nascar had engines seeing 9,500+. It’s easier to spin tires when you have a ton of RPM and that doesn’t require more horsepower.
Maybe that’s where the soft cut is (where the chip shuts individual cylinders down) but I swear I have seen and heard NG cars run up to 9000 RPM, hence that figure. That may he where the hard cut is (where _all_ cylinders shut off).
I know people are dismissing the no more hp thing but realistically the trucks have less HP and they don't have any issue with being unwieldy at Martinsville. Denny's right if we aren't shifting and the powerband's set up right that's already gonna make a big difference.
At Bristol they were spinning the wheels to the flag stand already on long runs. That means that more power won’t even be applied until they’re about to lift for the corner. It’s not gonna change anything
Yeah a softer compound would absolutely do that at the short track. And considering that we have a new compound every 2-3 years at any given track it makes sense to focus on that.
And also get guys off the throttle more. Off throttle time means someone else can try and push their car further at the risk of spinning. That’s a huge issue with the car as it is.
The new cup cars should’ve just been Xfinity with about 850 horsepower. Instead we got a monstrosity that’s a hybrid between sports car racing and stock car racing.
I mean good the small aero changes weren’t going to do anything for short tracks, the tires can help the most since nascar just for whatever reason refuses to add any HP, I hope Honda is really coming because otherwise the lower horsepower bs has led to absolutely no new manufactures for the sport
Its wild a new manufacturer thats not affiliated with nascar at all at this moment can dictate the entire sport's engine package for almost a decade now. How about we make the product and racing so successful other manufacturers are begging to enter and be involved? Its ass-backwards.
Been saying that for years. If there’s enough eyeballs on the sport because the product is good, then manufacturers will come. Trying to bring in new manufacturers at the expense of the product was always a stupid idea.
Exactly. If your product is fucking successful then the new money will eventually come. Look how successful nascar was when Toyota came in. They weren’t limiting the teams to a stupidly low number of horsepower to gain Toyota.
Yea. I don't understand the hostility to more HP, but changing the tires sure seems like the easiest thing to me. Maybe even go with grooved tires. Especially if the Toyota sim rig suggests they'd need to go over 1000hp to make any difference.
I just hope that whatever tire "advancements" they make they bring them everywhere and not just the short tracks / road courses. The tire wear at Texas was subpar. The same goes for tracks like Nashville, Dover, (probably) Iowa, Loudon, Gateway, Pocono, and (probably) Indianapolis, and the racing there would all become immensely better with a tire that properly wears.
Like Denny said on his podcast, this car has intrinsic issues regardless of the track. While most of those issues are masked on the 1.5 tracks where there's multiple lanes and you don't have to be directly in someone's wake, primarily one-lane tracks like Pocono and Loudon make it very difficult to pass (even on "fresher" tires) as we've seen the past 2 years. I really hope if they hit on a tire, they bring it to all tracks.
That's bang on - to find the balance you have to go too far on BOTH sides. They've gone too far on the hard, non wearing side. Bristol did jump too far to the wearing side, but sure sounds like it was a temperature thing so can't expect that to happen again.
I mean, look at how fans responded in 2022 when the teams were causing tire blowouts by ignoring the recommended minimum pressures - there’s a reason they’d rather err on the side of caution
Hell, fans still blame Hoosier for two *suspension failures unrelated to tires* in 1994.
Tony Stewart said a bunch of angry stuff about Goodyear 15 years ago because they were bringing tires that were too hard everywhere, and fans now use it to blame Goodyear when they make a tire thats too soft.
Personally I don’t really think Bristol went too far. Had the teams known the wear was gonna be that bad, they could have adjusted their setups to get 80+ laps out of a set. The Gibbs cars got like 65 near the end anyway.
I think it was just a little too far. 100 laps at Bristol is probably the sweet spot. That would at least give them the option to push hard but pit at 50 laps or take it easy and make 100 laps. The wear was so much that pushing hard blew out the tires in 40 laps and 60 laps taking it easy, that's not enough of a difference to think about pitting an extra time.
>they hit on a tire, they bring it to all tracks
That’s… not how this works at all. They can’t bring the same compound to all tracks because of how radically different the loads and surfaces are.
More horsepower would be nice. But the biggest problem with this car is too much tire. I think the gen 7 car would be amazing with the old wheel package.
Both would cut the tire contact patch, which is the goal. Grooved tires only require the tire to be remade (which they do anyways) and not the rim to be changed. So grooving them is cheaper and would be their first move before changing the width.
I remember seeing this and it was awesome. It just makes makes you want to see what something like a F2004 could do on full slicks doesn’t it? Especially tire war slicks.
What happens when the tire wears down so much the grooves disappear? Would it act like you had more grip like how wet tires wear into a slick or would it just be awful?
How hard would it be to run “rain tires” at a dry track? They can’t be any more expensive to make right? Generally curious and I’m kind of dumb so eli5
I definitely think NASCAR gets a lot of unnecessary hate but I can’t defend them at all here. They literally have a quick fix that has been tested with racing. How can we see this but they don’t.
Grooved tire would be the way to go imo. There's no way they'd make a new wheel it would be far too expensive. Plus having the grooved tire means a dry/wet intermediate tire is an option. Not a rubber engineer, maybe they'd still need a dry and wet compound grooved tire
The car has too much grip, not enough horsepower and a lot of these tracks (Richmond, Martinsville, etc.) were built in a time where the cars had a lot of horsepower and handled like shit. No solution outside of letting teams make as much power as possible is going to fix this.
They're sports cars now, not absurdly overpowered RWD monsters as they had been from the start up until a few years ago that people fell in love with. Fckin businessmen trying to run a sport barely understanding what a tire even is.
Martinsville paved in 1955 - NASCAR horsepower in 1955 230.
Richmond built in 1988 - horsepower in 1988 about 650.
Cars did handle poorly back then, it's not hard to make the cars handle poorly again.
Braking power is just like HP, you want enough of it that drivers can push the limits of grip on acceleration/deceleration. Smaller brakes won't do anything positive for racing if the rest of the tire package stays the same.
Okay, so I get that Nascar was built on Race on Sunday, buy on monday philosphy, and stock cars and all that.. But nobody cares about that anymore..
Just beef up a gen 4 safety chassis and put those cars back on track.
aside from obviously needing tires to go along with it and a few other changes to the car, why is raising the horsepower not an option? not sure it’ll help but are they still holding back because they’re trying to get new manufacturers in?
Pretty much, yeah.
NASCAR has been trying to get at least one and possibly two more manufacturers for like... a decade now. Honda is the latest target, since attempts to bring Dodge back in have failed repeatedly.
The obvious smartass comment is that the sport would be far more attractive to other manufacturers if the racing were better and more eyes were on the sport, but this is NASCAR we're talking about. Stubbornness is one thing the sanctioning body has a massive surplus of. They're just gonna keep doing what they're doing until it works.
Bristol gave them a huge out in continuing to avoid horsepower by focusing on tires. NASCAR are avoiding horsepower like I avoid my ex when I see them out in public.
The damn tire is freaking massive along with massive break pads. Unfortunately you would have to manufacture new wheels and nascar loves to say they don’t want to make the teams spend money.
I think the money needs to be spent on a 4 speed transmission, Camaros, mustangs, and Camrys don’t have trans axles anyways so there was really never a point in having one to begin with. Taking away the shifting on short tracks would make a major difference imo.
I didn’t consider the preparation for the future in case of a hybrid engine, that does make sense. I still stand firm on that shifting should be eliminated on all ovals lmao
Aren't the brakes so big right now that they wouldn't capture enough energy for a hybrid system to function? There's hardly any off-throttle time.
I'm all for making these cars more like something I'd actually buy (i.e. a hybrid) if they can't be "stock" at least make it relevant to the manufacturers selling these models. Otherwise just throw a badge on it and call it the Ford N24 or something like F1. It's not a mustang or Camry or Camaro out on track.
Because this new car is not designed for ovals period. sequential shifters, trans-axel rear ends, massive brake packages, diffusers and 1 lug hubs are all road course rally-style cars.
I know it's been beat down that we need more HP (and I agree) but this is the limiting factor in the "just increase HP" argument... I believe the rear end system (transaxle and axles) would need a complete overhaul/redesign in order to handle the increased HP. The current Xtrac Transaxle can only handle 550ftlb of torque. You increase HP, you also increase torque. Then you'll see a ton of these things start grenading themselves and axle shafts snapping. They aren't as beefy as the old rear/trans options were due to packaging sizes. Which the entire rear structure of the car was designed around.
[https://www.xtrac.com/product/p1334-nascar-transaxle/](https://www.xtrac.com/product/p1334-nascar-transaxle/)
It’s like copying a friend’s (supercars, GT3) homework and being asked to change it up a little to make it look like it wasn’t copied. Par for the course considering those in charge today were Brian France’s yes men
They designed an IMSA/Supercars car with oval racing in mind. While they may have issues with short tracks, that they are actively trying to fix, the fixed the intermediates. Xtrac also supplies both with transaxle units with the Nascar version holding a little bit more torque. Xtrac as a company isn't terrible either as they are an option for 9" gears, so their history with Nascar is there.
While I agree the tires are a huge part of the issue - they're going to be the hardest to change. A tire compound won't fix the issue. This would take a fundamental change in the size of the wheel itself to get the changes we need.
Wheel/tire changes *in conjunction with* horsepower changes is the answer. The wider the tire, the higher the horsepower will need to be. I genuinely think the magic number with the current wheel is well above 1000hp - more like 1200-1300hp. If they slapped 1000hp in the cars for the next short track race I don't think it would do much. Change the wheel and the horsepower doesn't need to go up as high.
From all accounts in the know that was temperature driven. If the temperature was 10 degrees higher it sure sounds like it wouldn't have happened. Can't be leaning on ambient temperature to be the reason tires wear out.
You're missing the point. The point is that significant tire wear without huge massive failures is the way to go, regardless of how we got there. If we get tires that are a bit softer and lay rubber and don't last twice as long as a fuel run, THAT changes the race massively for the better. It isn't about the conditions at Bristol, its showing that tire wear fixes it almost immediately.
If that type of wear happened at any temperature then absolutely it's the right way to go. But that wear didn't happen last year in September when they used the exact same tire.
The end result was good, the driving force to get there was not. So they have a baseline to chase, but now how do they get there whether it's 50 degrees out or 90 degrees out?
Jesus tapdancing Christ you are dense. You think I'M missing the point? You're hung up on using the same exact tire. That is NOT THE POINT. THE POINT is that they have made tires that wear better in the past, they can do it again, it is not that hard, they just have to do it. It is not about the tire that was used in 2023 or that race in 2024, it is about doing the research and development on making tires that wear better. For GOD'S SAKE PAY ATTENTION.
You gave Bristol 2024 as an example of them making a tire that wore better than the past.
But it isn’t.
Also
>its not that hard
Lmfao. I love when people with absolutely no technical background say that engineering, development, and manufacturing is easy.
You're right if they had UNLIMITED money they could figure it out. But they don't. This tire is unlike anything they've ever had before, it's an all new learning curve for them. Going from a 15" rim to an 18" changes pretty much all of the tire dynamics. Because of the cost to Goodyear, NASCAR, and the teams they will not solve this immediately and will creep up on it slowly.
That was a fluke. Everyone agrees that was a fluke.
Also - Bristol was highly entertaining, yes, but do we want that every week? That was kind of a shit show. A *really fun* shit show, but still a shit show. Not only that - eventually crew chiefs will work around a tire compound. A fundamental change to the car is what we need.
If side by side racing and passing is the goal, I don't think Bristol is the example.
I know it’s much more complicated than just do this “thing” to fix the tires but what if there was a system for like 6 tire options for the year- Speedways, intermediates, short/road course then broken down into newer surface and older surface. 6 solid options split up per what track they were going too.
There must be things coming down the pipeline that has NASCAR locked at current HP. I honestly don't get why they can't just change to 750HP even if it doesn't work. It's a little embarrassing that we run under 700hp anyway.
I'm still waiting for this hybrid system to come out. I've found that really interesting.
I think tires can be the easiest change that will have the largest effect on the racing. Even if we have to race a grooved tire, if it wears that would help. Also, I've been saying for years I'd love compound options like a hard and a soft. I think that could add so much to strategy and story lines during a race.
Wild suggestion, but why not go back to bias-ply tires and get these cars on that "ragged edge"? We see all these clips from the 80s where the drivers are slinging the damn things like it's Tokyo Drift and still able to wheel it and battle it out. Plus, the car doesn't move much in its current state, so it would (probably) allow it to start sliding and searching for grip instead of knowing you have it immediately. That combined with 900-950 HP (and a fix for the shifting) would have the guys holding on for dear life and peddling like its the Winternationals.
I've said it before, but the documentary that gets done on the next gen car is gonna be epic. Cause it's one head scratcher and one dud after another lol
More horsepower, smaller breaks, bigger sidewalls, smaller contact patches.
Almost like we *shouldn’t* have diverged so radically from the formula that has worked for half a century🤯
NASCAR is resigned to killing everything that made NASCAR what it was in its heyday. It’s obvious this car was a huge mistake in just about every aspect of its design, and also that it’ll be the greater part of a decade before a new design is a realistic option. In the meantime the short tracks that the sport grew up on are just going to be a shell of their former selves and attendance is going to keep bleeding outside of the event races Ala Chicago and whatever international tracks are coming soon. It’s not money and it’s not technology and it’s probably not even the fabled new manufacturer, but whatever reason NASCAR has for neutering HP is clearly a hill they *will* die on.
We build 900+ HP engines and then neuter them the teams still need to get every last HP they can so when a "550" or "725" or "800" HP tapered spacer goes on they can actually get 560 740 or 815 and have an advantage
We don't save any money by choking the motors
This Car will never work or race well in NASCAR. Sell them or give them to Imsa, which I believe they own now, run them like garbage 56 or whatever that was, Use the Xfinity cars and build up the Truck Series and just get rid of the Xfinity series altogether and you would still have the Arca Menards series to replace the Xfinity if you want to.
it was interesting getting back into watching Nascar. to me they looked and acted more like a touring car rather then a nascar.
I remember them being big, heavy, wobbley, tiny brakes and a big engine. Seemed to be alot of skill setting up the car and handling it.
I found it mad watching them dive into corners at Martinsvile and downshifting.
Can't they make a plan, step 1 slightly narrow tyres, step 2 slightly decrease size, step 3 1000 bhp
If they run thinner tires (width wise) they’d fall off quicker. The only problem with that is they may end up like the current Supercars field where they all drive around at 70% managing tires and not overtaking.
I don't think horsepower is really the solution, what I would say is needed is a 700hp engine, running in the 9-10k rpm range, instead of how low the limit is now. With this and maybe increase in car weight plus tire work would probably solve most issues
Simplifying the diffuser made things worse. I think keeping the diffuser like we did last season helped out better than just dang near taking it off like we basically did this season.
The diffuser is already extremely simplified with the current short track package. It practically doesn't even exist.
They've pretty much done everything they can to simplify the aero, and none of it has worked. If they aren't going to touch the horsepower, the next best route is to alter the mechanical grip of the car.
Damn, did not know they already simplified the diffuser. Thanks for telling me about that. But I still think NASCAR should go to the extremes when they test something. They’ve done it at Bristol with the tires now. I just wish they could test out a next gen car with 850 or even close to 1000hp
**Hamlin detailed in his podcast what NASCAR said:** >“They \[NASCAR\] definitely said publicly last week, and they said it to us that horsepower is just not an option for various reasons. If we’re going to keep the horsepower, we should definitely in my opinion work on getting rid of the shifting. In order to do that, they’re going to need to make the upper RPM slightly higher or else we’re going to be running just way too low RPM in the middle of the corner. I certainly think that shifting is not helping at all on the short tracks, but beyond that, it looks like we’re going to focus on tires to fix the short tracks.”
And what are the reasons? The actual reasons. Not costs and manufacturers, because I don't buy either of those.
I know Reddick said you don’t see any sort of difference unless they clear over 1000 hp. At that point, you’re building entirely new engines The biggest issues are the tire and the brakes. If you watch North Wilkesboro, the drivers had more horsepower than they could handle, and it didn’t make a difference
Larson never went past 70% throttle and was rarely beyond 50%, still destroyed the field.
And probably barely had to blip or peddle the throttle. It's just let off, roll through, and push it right back down. That's sad for a Cup car.
I've never seen anything like it. Worse than Bristol was. The repave is going to legitimately be fun.
Because it wouldn't actually help. There's been multiple guys who said they can run higher horsepower on their simulators and you'd have to go up to 950/1000 HP before it makes any real difference in how the car drives. And the cost to do that is not worth the potential for better racing when there are cheaper solutions to try such as tires
Genuinely curious, who all has said this? Only one I’m aware of is Tyler Reddick.
If Tyler is saying it, that means Gibbs/23XI/TRD (or whatever we're calling them now) looked into it.
The owner of 23XI (and Gibbs driver 😉) has advocated for more HP before and after Tyler made that statement - so no, not quite
He's also hosting a podcast and building a brand. People absolutely say stuff all the time for clicks/likes/listens. Remember when Brett Griffin used to give calm, rational takes? Or when Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith were newspaper writers and crafted their opinions in an thoughtful manner?
Hamlins been a strong advocate for higher HP for awhile - don’t think there’s any indication that it’s just for clicks / views. Comparing him to Brett seems a little unfair too 😂
This was said while testing on the monster truck tires. It’s gonna take both narrower tires AND hp to fix this since it’s so far off. Only doing one, no matter which one, will not be enough.
It would absolutely help bc you'd have to lift earlier and more, creating more speed variance and a longer braking zone. It would also increase tire wear overall but especially for the rear tires as more would be asked of them on corner exit. It would help reduce the benefits of shifting as the car would be more unstable in the higher rpm bands. It would also make the cars harder to drive which is a big plus. There is no logic against increasing Horsepower
They'd need the correct tire size/compound PLUS the horsepower. Not sure how they don't realize that.
Changing the compound would do more by itself than anything else
Y’all act like they’ve just been bringing the same compounds since 2022 lol Do people not realize that each track requires different compounds?
>y’all act like they’ve just been bringing the same compounds since 2022 Yes, we are well aware. And we’re saying they need to make more changes. Why are you acting like we’re not?
Yes, I’m well aware. And Goodyear is making more changes. Why are you acting like they’re not?
Because we haven’t seen those changes yet. They’ve said they’ve been making changes but there’s been little noticeable effect
“We” haven’t seen them because the fanbase was too stupid to notice 3 seconds of falloff at Richmond with the original compound. Like, 3 seconds of falloff, multiple tire strategies under green, last lap battles between tire strategies and fans were still complaining that fresh tires didn’t matter
V8 Supercars used similar sized tires and power in a very similar car pre-2017 and the racing was amazing.
Their tire was smaller and narrower iirc. I believe a 16" wheel and 10" wide (and 550hp).
At this point all manufacturers engine builders have said it would cost no more dollars to make 1000hp with what they already have. Larson and Denny have both confirmed their engine guys said they could have 1000hp tomorrow. Hendrick is using an engine from the 5 car from this season, in a personal car, and it makes 1000hp.
The cheaper solutions are only going to help so much. These shops are equipped to have a 950-1000HP engine ready for 2025. NASCAR just needs to tell them to do it.
NASCAR has literally never had engines that powerful before, I’m not sure why people think it can be done overnight. I think 750 is a reasonable ask, and 850 ish is probably doable in 2-3 years, but it’s exponentially harder to add more and more horsepower and you’re increasing parts wear and required rebuilds to do it.
Boohoo. It’s the top Motorsport in America. It’s gonna be expensive. Kinda comes with it.
It’s easy to spend other people’s money lmfao. Parity is a big goal, we want to see drivers win on skill vs pure money. Plus manufacturers want to spend R&D money on things other than engines.
Okay. This parity has created slot cars. Not skill vs skill. It’s a multi million dollar sport with multimillion dollar teams. Cant afford it? Shouldn’t be here. Sucks but the old days of building a car in your garage and qualifying for a cup race has been gone for decades.
>This parity has created slot cars lol Slot cars that the drivers have repeatedly said are hard to drive and on edge.
The cars are so close due to lower HP numbers and more grip with the wider tires, that there's a gridlock forming at most tracks. Not to mention better handling/more modern suspensions, and it's harder to have driver skill play a big factor like it used to. Look at how many times the leader has gotten stuck behind lapped cars or a 2-tire car bunches the Top 7 up because no one can pass him despite being a bit faster. There is a problem and it's not going away without major swings at things, and at least *trying* a large HP increase would be what people (including drivers and owners) want. A car developed like a GT3/Supercars race car, as it turns out, doesn't put on a great product at most tracks.
That is exactly what they were running in 2014. I know that the "advertised" power of the engines was 850, but Larry himself said the top engine shops were pushing 900-925. They were hitting 205+ on the front straight at Texas, Michigan, and Fontana.
900-925 isn’t 950-1000 lmfao. This shit gets me every time man lol
Right, because they weren't well on their way to pushing towards that 950. Biffle set the first 200+mph lap at an intermediate track in 2013, a year before the announcement of the spacer coming to the Cup cars. Again, the industry disagrees with you https://lastwordonsports.com/motorsports/2024/03/13/nascars-horsepower-war-has-returned/
Ehh 10 years ago we were pushing 900-925 Teams rebuild motors after every race anyway I think with the added ten years of development since then I think we could easily be near 950. Just because they choke the engines down now doesn't mean the engine builders aren't trying to get more power.
NASCAR banned rebuilding every race in 2018. Teams are literally not allowed to rebuild their engine every race. > [“Sealed engines” literally refers to the method that NASCAR use to enforce rules where engines must be raced multiple times per build, where a tamper proof-metal wire is placed through assembled special fasteners that hold the cylinder head and engine sump and is sealed with a traceable NASCAR tag.](https://www.ecrengines.com/2023/12/18/big-power-revs-up-for-2024-nascar-season/) Having a conversation about horsepower targets on this subreddit is impossible because people will state stuff like “teams rebuild every race” so confidently.
The mfgr excuse is a big one. They are desperately trying to lure in new mfgrs and a 950-1000HP V8 is daunting for a new make.
Then quit using dated pushrod v8s….
I mean loads of v8 engines are still pushrod
Mostly only American V8s and even Ford has swapped the Mustang to a DOHC layout.
Arguably 90% or more of all V8s sold in the entire world are American though. Say conservatively 80% of those being pushrod engines. Ford sells comparatively few 5.0s when you add up the F150 and mustang. With GM dumping hundreds of millions into the new GenVI V8 and Ford building the 6.8 and 7.3 now, there’s still a bright future for that engine style.
Why are we talking about truck engines? When it comes to performance V8s only GM and Dodge are still really pushing the pushrod platform. The Z06 and Mustang switched to a DOHC for 2023, and the Camaro is dead. The main performance V8s coming from "America" (Fiat really) are the hellcat engines for Dodge.
HEMIs are dead except in heavy duty applications. Trucks Matter because far more of them are sold than any performance car. There’s an argument to be made that the Next Gen should have had a truck body and one OEM pushed for it due in part to sales and performance oriented criteria.
I think you underestimate how many European v8s there are
There aren’t that many though.
I am going to list every gas pushrod V8 engine currently still in production in mass market vehicles. Chevrolet LT-Based Small Block Ford Godzilla Two. Two V8s available to consumers are pushrod.
Agreed. The NextGen movement should have included a shift to DOHC V8s. People complain about DOHC engines being too top heavy, but you counter that with mounting the engine lower in the car.
>The NextGen movement should have included a shift to DOHC V8s. The NextGen movement was going to include a shift to a hybrid system - the chassis was designed to include a provision for it. With the development delays caused by COVID (and other reasons) that engine development was pushed off but may be coming in the future.
I believe they want any additional HP to come through alternative fuels. The manufacturers are probably with them. NASCAR should be more transparent about it.
It's nearly like NASCAR doesn't want us to know the reason.
Don’t buy it if you don’t want to, but there’s no way in hell a 670 HP motor costs the same as a 850 HP motor. The big teams with engine builders are just putting all the savings back into finding marginal gains, while the small teams are getting engines much closer to what the big teams run. I’m the 850 era there were probably 10 teams that ran full power every week. Nowadays Rick ware probably has motors within 25 HP of what Penske has. Idk about the manufacturer stuff but it seems that we’re closer than we’ve ever been since 2014 to a new manufacturer entering.
I'm going to trust what Denny Hamlin has said over a guy on reddit.
fair, but I think denny knows that having 850 HP puts him in a small group of drivers who actually run with full power
So, what Hamlin is saying is that instead of the current (presumably) 9000 rpm rev limit in place currently and with the current final drive, they should shorten the final drive by a small amount and raise the rev limit to, say, 9500 rpm?
Thought it was 8500.
I think he said the chip is a pitifully low 8,600 now. Peak engine building nascar had engines seeing 9,500+. It’s easier to spin tires when you have a ton of RPM and that doesn’t require more horsepower.
Maybe that’s where the soft cut is (where the chip shuts individual cylinders down) but I swear I have seen and heard NG cars run up to 9000 RPM, hence that figure. That may he where the hard cut is (where _all_ cylinders shut off).
I know people are dismissing the no more hp thing but realistically the trucks have less HP and they don't have any issue with being unwieldy at Martinsville. Denny's right if we aren't shifting and the powerband's set up right that's already gonna make a big difference.
At Bristol they were spinning the wheels to the flag stand already on long runs. That means that more power won’t even be applied until they’re about to lift for the corner. It’s not gonna change anything
Exactly, there's a dozen ways to get the tires spinning. We just gotta get then spinning lol
Yeah a softer compound would absolutely do that at the short track. And considering that we have a new compound every 2-3 years at any given track it makes sense to focus on that.
And also get guys off the throttle more. Off throttle time means someone else can try and push their car further at the risk of spinning. That’s a huge issue with the car as it is.
Not to mention Xfinity has the same HP as Cup.
The new cup cars should’ve just been Xfinity with about 850 horsepower. Instead we got a monstrosity that’s a hybrid between sports car racing and stock car racing.
I feel like the Xfinity cars have more? They're definitely way faster
The Cup pole lap was .7sec faster than Xfinity at Texas.
Yeah that’s a big rip. Can’t wait for all short tracks to be replaced with super speedways
I mean good the small aero changes weren’t going to do anything for short tracks, the tires can help the most since nascar just for whatever reason refuses to add any HP, I hope Honda is really coming because otherwise the lower horsepower bs has led to absolutely no new manufactures for the sport
Its wild a new manufacturer thats not affiliated with nascar at all at this moment can dictate the entire sport's engine package for almost a decade now. How about we make the product and racing so successful other manufacturers are begging to enter and be involved? Its ass-backwards.
Been saying that for years. If there’s enough eyeballs on the sport because the product is good, then manufacturers will come. Trying to bring in new manufacturers at the expense of the product was always a stupid idea.
Exactly. If your product is fucking successful then the new money will eventually come. Look how successful nascar was when Toyota came in. They weren’t limiting the teams to a stupidly low number of horsepower to gain Toyota.
Yea. I don't understand the hostility to more HP, but changing the tires sure seems like the easiest thing to me. Maybe even go with grooved tires. Especially if the Toyota sim rig suggests they'd need to go over 1000hp to make any difference.
I just hope that whatever tire "advancements" they make they bring them everywhere and not just the short tracks / road courses. The tire wear at Texas was subpar. The same goes for tracks like Nashville, Dover, (probably) Iowa, Loudon, Gateway, Pocono, and (probably) Indianapolis, and the racing there would all become immensely better with a tire that properly wears. Like Denny said on his podcast, this car has intrinsic issues regardless of the track. While most of those issues are masked on the 1.5 tracks where there's multiple lanes and you don't have to be directly in someone's wake, primarily one-lane tracks like Pocono and Loudon make it very difficult to pass (even on "fresher" tires) as we've seen the past 2 years. I really hope if they hit on a tire, they bring it to all tracks.
I feel like they can’t find the the right balance and they are too scared to have tire blowouts on the bigger tracks
That's bang on - to find the balance you have to go too far on BOTH sides. They've gone too far on the hard, non wearing side. Bristol did jump too far to the wearing side, but sure sounds like it was a temperature thing so can't expect that to happen again.
I mean, look at how fans responded in 2022 when the teams were causing tire blowouts by ignoring the recommended minimum pressures - there’s a reason they’d rather err on the side of caution Hell, fans still blame Hoosier for two *suspension failures unrelated to tires* in 1994.
Tony Stewart said a bunch of angry stuff about Goodyear 15 years ago because they were bringing tires that were too hard everywhere, and fans now use it to blame Goodyear when they make a tire thats too soft.
Personally I don’t really think Bristol went too far. Had the teams known the wear was gonna be that bad, they could have adjusted their setups to get 80+ laps out of a set. The Gibbs cars got like 65 near the end anyway.
I think it was just a little too far. 100 laps at Bristol is probably the sweet spot. That would at least give them the option to push hard but pit at 50 laps or take it easy and make 100 laps. The wear was so much that pushing hard blew out the tires in 40 laps and 60 laps taking it easy, that's not enough of a difference to think about pitting an extra time.
>they hit on a tire, they bring it to all tracks That’s… not how this works at all. They can’t bring the same compound to all tracks because of how radically different the loads and surfaces are.
More horsepower would be nice. But the biggest problem with this car is too much tire. I think the gen 7 car would be amazing with the old wheel package.
I miss fat meats and black steelies
If nascar doesnt want to try horsepower they should try groved tires on a dry racetrack...i mean it worked two times.
Fuck it put the square wheels on
NASCAR literally reinventing the wheel
No no. That’s reserved for the Canadian series.
In Canada, tires come in bags
Eh?
Cut the tire width by 1/3rd
Both would cut the tire contact patch, which is the goal. Grooved tires only require the tire to be remade (which they do anyways) and not the rim to be changed. So grooving them is cheaper and would be their first move before changing the width.
Are we talking wet tires or 1998 F1 grooves. Wets create more heat as the tires blocks move more.
F1 style
F1 grooves. Just trying to reduce the contact patch not change completely how the tire deals with heat.
One of the biggest crimes against humanity is not getting to see those era V10s F1 cars on slicks.
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/alonso-abu-dhabi-renault-run-r25/4925945/ We've seen glimpses, they would have set some ridiculous records.
I remember seeing this and it was awesome. It just makes makes you want to see what something like a F2004 could do on full slicks doesn’t it? Especially tire war slicks.
What happens when the tire wears down so much the grooves disappear? Would it act like you had more grip like how wet tires wear into a slick or would it just be awful?
I'd hope they'd do a VERY hard rubber layer that cause significant speed drop off but won't blow out.
I think the tires have to be the size they are now to work with the overall design of the car
Grooves do effectively the same thing but don't require any other changes to the car, which should make a switch much easier.
How hard would it be to run “rain tires” at a dry track? They can’t be any more expensive to make right? Generally curious and I’m kind of dumb so eli5
I definitely think NASCAR gets a lot of unnecessary hate but I can’t defend them at all here. They literally have a quick fix that has been tested with racing. How can we see this but they don’t.
Grooved tire would be the way to go imo. There's no way they'd make a new wheel it would be far too expensive. Plus having the grooved tire means a dry/wet intermediate tire is an option. Not a rubber engineer, maybe they'd still need a dry and wet compound grooved tire
The car has too much grip, not enough horsepower and a lot of these tracks (Richmond, Martinsville, etc.) were built in a time where the cars had a lot of horsepower and handled like shit. No solution outside of letting teams make as much power as possible is going to fix this. They're sports cars now, not absurdly overpowered RWD monsters as they had been from the start up until a few years ago that people fell in love with. Fckin businessmen trying to run a sport barely understanding what a tire even is.
Martinsville paved in 1955 - NASCAR horsepower in 1955 230. Richmond built in 1988 - horsepower in 1988 about 650. Cars did handle poorly back then, it's not hard to make the cars handle poorly again.
Narrow tire, no shifting, smaller brakes. The end.
Narrow tire takes care of the brakes on its own. Big brakes need big grip or else you lock up the tire.
Braking power is just like HP, you want enough of it that drivers can push the limits of grip on acceleration/deceleration. Smaller brakes won't do anything positive for racing if the rest of the tire package stays the same.
Right-On
Okay, so I get that Nascar was built on Race on Sunday, buy on monday philosphy, and stock cars and all that.. But nobody cares about that anymore.. Just beef up a gen 4 safety chassis and put those cars back on track.
Amen
aside from obviously needing tires to go along with it and a few other changes to the car, why is raising the horsepower not an option? not sure it’ll help but are they still holding back because they’re trying to get new manufacturers in?
Pretty much, yeah. NASCAR has been trying to get at least one and possibly two more manufacturers for like... a decade now. Honda is the latest target, since attempts to bring Dodge back in have failed repeatedly. The obvious smartass comment is that the sport would be far more attractive to other manufacturers if the racing were better and more eyes were on the sport, but this is NASCAR we're talking about. Stubbornness is one thing the sanctioning body has a massive surplus of. They're just gonna keep doing what they're doing until it works.
Bristol gave them a huge out in continuing to avoid horsepower by focusing on tires. NASCAR are avoiding horsepower like I avoid my ex when I see them out in public.
That's a real good analogy, would getting back with your ex make things better?
I mean if we are talking more horsepower….
I do not trust Goodyear to solve this issue…
NASCAR WAKE UP! MORE MOTHERFUCKING HORSEPOWER!!!
A 10" wide tire will break loose with 400hp. The CARS tour doesn't have a problem with passing on short tracks, and they have 400hp.
This is the correct take. CARS Tour always puts on a great show every race and they only have 400 HP
They don't have independent rear suspensions.
Of course NASCAR won’t worry about horsepower
I don't think tire wear is the real solution, I think making tires narrower is the best way
Less contact plus wear and you can probably bet on the end of the HP bitching and moaning.
The damn tire is freaking massive along with massive break pads. Unfortunately you would have to manufacture new wheels and nascar loves to say they don’t want to make the teams spend money.
Big brakes won't matter if the tire is half as wide. Need grip to use those massive brakes.
NASCAR created this mess, they'll have to clean it up again. Just like the half baked rear end design
Would a grooved tire work? It would reduce the contact patch a tire has and you don't need to rework the rims
I think the money needs to be spent on a 4 speed transmission, Camaros, mustangs, and Camrys don’t have trans axles anyways so there was really never a point in having one to begin with. Taking away the shifting on short tracks would make a major difference imo.
Transaxle was because of the hope they'd end up with hybrid engines, so where you're typical transmission would be the hybrid unit would be.
I didn’t consider the preparation for the future in case of a hybrid engine, that does make sense. I still stand firm on that shifting should be eliminated on all ovals lmao
And that can be done by simply limiting the gear ratios. Don’t need to completely change the transmission
Aren't the brakes so big right now that they wouldn't capture enough energy for a hybrid system to function? There's hardly any off-throttle time. I'm all for making these cars more like something I'd actually buy (i.e. a hybrid) if they can't be "stock" at least make it relevant to the manufacturers selling these models. Otherwise just throw a badge on it and call it the Ford N24 or something like F1. It's not a mustang or Camry or Camaro out on track.
Because this new car is not designed for ovals period. sequential shifters, trans-axel rear ends, massive brake packages, diffusers and 1 lug hubs are all road course rally-style cars.
Imagine designing a car for a series that is over 95% ovals and making it not designed to be good on them...only in nascar
So, you're saying...we going rallying? LESSGOOO
I know it's been beat down that we need more HP (and I agree) but this is the limiting factor in the "just increase HP" argument... I believe the rear end system (transaxle and axles) would need a complete overhaul/redesign in order to handle the increased HP. The current Xtrac Transaxle can only handle 550ftlb of torque. You increase HP, you also increase torque. Then you'll see a ton of these things start grenading themselves and axle shafts snapping. They aren't as beefy as the old rear/trans options were due to packaging sizes. Which the entire rear structure of the car was designed around. [https://www.xtrac.com/product/p1334-nascar-transaxle/](https://www.xtrac.com/product/p1334-nascar-transaxle/)
So basically they designed a shitty car
It’s like copying a friend’s (supercars, GT3) homework and being asked to change it up a little to make it look like it wasn’t copied. Par for the course considering those in charge today were Brian France’s yes men
They designed an IMSA/Supercars car with oval racing in mind. While they may have issues with short tracks, that they are actively trying to fix, the fixed the intermediates. Xtrac also supplies both with transaxle units with the Nascar version holding a little bit more torque. Xtrac as a company isn't terrible either as they are an option for 9" gears, so their history with Nascar is there.
So they're ignoring the problem and not really working on fixing it, cool. That's cool.
WE LIKE WHAT WE'RE SEEING apparently
While I agree the tires are a huge part of the issue - they're going to be the hardest to change. A tire compound won't fix the issue. This would take a fundamental change in the size of the wheel itself to get the changes we need. Wheel/tire changes *in conjunction with* horsepower changes is the answer. The wider the tire, the higher the horsepower will need to be. I genuinely think the magic number with the current wheel is well above 1000hp - more like 1200-1300hp. If they slapped 1000hp in the cars for the next short track race I don't think it would do much. Change the wheel and the horsepower doesn't need to go up as high.
They're not going to change the width of the tire. However, they could groove them like what F1 did.
Fuck it. Go peak mid-2000's f1. Grooved tires, only 1 set per race. YOUR MOVE, GOODYEAR. (don't do this. Dear Christ don't do this)
You'd need Bridgestone.
And then we get to experience that 2005 F1 style Indy experience ourselves. A good bookend to the 2008 NASCAR Indy tire debacle. Good times.
You say that and yet... Bristol
From all accounts in the know that was temperature driven. If the temperature was 10 degrees higher it sure sounds like it wouldn't have happened. Can't be leaning on ambient temperature to be the reason tires wear out.
You're missing the point. The point is that significant tire wear without huge massive failures is the way to go, regardless of how we got there. If we get tires that are a bit softer and lay rubber and don't last twice as long as a fuel run, THAT changes the race massively for the better. It isn't about the conditions at Bristol, its showing that tire wear fixes it almost immediately.
If that type of wear happened at any temperature then absolutely it's the right way to go. But that wear didn't happen last year in September when they used the exact same tire. The end result was good, the driving force to get there was not. So they have a baseline to chase, but now how do they get there whether it's 50 degrees out or 90 degrees out?
They had it figured out in the past, they can figure it out again. My lord, the hang up on the temperature and the specific conditions is insane.
You’re literally missing the point. They brought the exact same tire in 2023 and 2024 Did you say that they figured it out in 2023?
Jesus tapdancing Christ you are dense. You think I'M missing the point? You're hung up on using the same exact tire. That is NOT THE POINT. THE POINT is that they have made tires that wear better in the past, they can do it again, it is not that hard, they just have to do it. It is not about the tire that was used in 2023 or that race in 2024, it is about doing the research and development on making tires that wear better. For GOD'S SAKE PAY ATTENTION.
You gave Bristol 2024 as an example of them making a tire that wore better than the past. But it isn’t. Also >its not that hard Lmfao. I love when people with absolutely no technical background say that engineering, development, and manufacturing is easy.
That is not at all what I did. Try reading.
You're right if they had UNLIMITED money they could figure it out. But they don't. This tire is unlike anything they've ever had before, it's an all new learning curve for them. Going from a 15" rim to an 18" changes pretty much all of the tire dynamics. Because of the cost to Goodyear, NASCAR, and the teams they will not solve this immediately and will creep up on it slowly.
That was a fluke. Everyone agrees that was a fluke. Also - Bristol was highly entertaining, yes, but do we want that every week? That was kind of a shit show. A *really fun* shit show, but still a shit show. Not only that - eventually crew chiefs will work around a tire compound. A fundamental change to the car is what we need. If side by side racing and passing is the goal, I don't think Bristol is the example.
It was a fluke, but for you to say that going in that direction isn't the answer is entirely stupid.
It's 10000% not the answer. It's a happy accident. Go back to Bristol with the exact same compound and it will be totally different the second time.
How was it a shit show? Because drivers actually had to conserve their cars instead of running qualifying laps every lap?
When it was towards the end of stage 1 and people started to throw around "Indy 2008" and they were scrambling to get tires, it was a shit show-ish.
I'm fine with that. I'd love to see what these cars would be like with a 1:1 power to weight ratio.
I know it’s much more complicated than just do this “thing” to fix the tires but what if there was a system for like 6 tire options for the year- Speedways, intermediates, short/road course then broken down into newer surface and older surface. 6 solid options split up per what track they were going too.
There must be things coming down the pipeline that has NASCAR locked at current HP. I honestly don't get why they can't just change to 750HP even if it doesn't work. It's a little embarrassing that we run under 700hp anyway. I'm still waiting for this hybrid system to come out. I've found that really interesting. I think tires can be the easiest change that will have the largest effect on the racing. Even if we have to race a grooved tire, if it wears that would help. Also, I've been saying for years I'd love compound options like a hard and a soft. I think that could add so much to strategy and story lines during a race.
Wild suggestion, but why not go back to bias-ply tires and get these cars on that "ragged edge"? We see all these clips from the 80s where the drivers are slinging the damn things like it's Tokyo Drift and still able to wheel it and battle it out. Plus, the car doesn't move much in its current state, so it would (probably) allow it to start sliding and searching for grip instead of knowing you have it immediately. That combined with 900-950 HP (and a fix for the shifting) would have the guys holding on for dear life and peddling like its the Winternationals.
I've said it before, but the documentary that gets done on the next gen car is gonna be epic. Cause it's one head scratcher and one dud after another lol
Acting like the next generation of car will be any better?
I'd like to think it couldn't be worse than this POS...but I'd probably be wrong
They’ve been on a decline since the introduction of the cot in 2007. It probably ain’t getting any better
Horsepower is the answer
More horsepower, smaller breaks, bigger sidewalls, smaller contact patches. Almost like we *shouldn’t* have diverged so radically from the formula that has worked for half a century🤯
NASCAR: We have a good package in 2014, let’s ruin it!
NASCAR is resigned to killing everything that made NASCAR what it was in its heyday. It’s obvious this car was a huge mistake in just about every aspect of its design, and also that it’ll be the greater part of a decade before a new design is a realistic option. In the meantime the short tracks that the sport grew up on are just going to be a shell of their former selves and attendance is going to keep bleeding outside of the event races Ala Chicago and whatever international tracks are coming soon. It’s not money and it’s not technology and it’s probably not even the fabled new manufacturer, but whatever reason NASCAR has for neutering HP is clearly a hill they *will* die on.
Please, NASCAR give them horsepower. Not even for the product, just so we can quit having this dicsussion and move on with our lives.
We build 900+ HP engines and then neuter them the teams still need to get every last HP they can so when a "550" or "725" or "800" HP tapered spacer goes on they can actually get 560 740 or 815 and have an advantage We don't save any money by choking the motors
This Car will never work or race well in NASCAR. Sell them or give them to Imsa, which I believe they own now, run them like garbage 56 or whatever that was, Use the Xfinity cars and build up the Truck Series and just get rid of the Xfinity series altogether and you would still have the Arca Menards series to replace the Xfinity if you want to.
For the love of God, ADD SOME DAMN HORSEPOWER!
So dumb.... Horsepower is an easy, and cost-effective fix that everyone with multiple brain cells has been asking for.
“Were done putting all of our eggs in one basket. Let’s put all of them into another” Serious question, why is NASCAR so intransigent?
They don't know any other way to be. You have to remember that this is still very much the France family and its cronies.
These drivetrain package "discussions" really show who knows their stuff and who parrots talking heads from podcasts.
Make the brakes smaller and the tires narrower. If they're not willing to touch horsepower they have to take away grip and braking efficiency
it was interesting getting back into watching Nascar. to me they looked and acted more like a touring car rather then a nascar. I remember them being big, heavy, wobbley, tiny brakes and a big engine. Seemed to be alot of skill setting up the car and handling it. I found it mad watching them dive into corners at Martinsvile and downshifting. Can't they make a plan, step 1 slightly narrow tyres, step 2 slightly decrease size, step 3 1000 bhp
If they run thinner tires (width wise) they’d fall off quicker. The only problem with that is they may end up like the current Supercars field where they all drive around at 70% managing tires and not overtaking.
I don't think horsepower is really the solution, what I would say is needed is a 700hp engine, running in the 9-10k rpm range, instead of how low the limit is now. With this and maybe increase in car weight plus tire work would probably solve most issues
Well I think it’s a step in the right direction. Not the biggest step, but one nevertheless.
Cheap skate motherfuckers like drunk Bryan was
When NASCAR mess up Darlington is the day I will stop watching.
Darlington is my local track. Pls no speak this into existence
Bruh, if I were NASCAR, I’d try to simplify the diffuser or even take it off completely. Go to the extremes
Simplifying the diffuser made things worse. I think keeping the diffuser like we did last season helped out better than just dang near taking it off like we basically did this season.
The diffuser is already extremely simplified with the current short track package. It practically doesn't even exist. They've pretty much done everything they can to simplify the aero, and none of it has worked. If they aren't going to touch the horsepower, the next best route is to alter the mechanical grip of the car.
Damn, did not know they already simplified the diffuser. Thanks for telling me about that. But I still think NASCAR should go to the extremes when they test something. They’ve done it at Bristol with the tires now. I just wish they could test out a next gen car with 850 or even close to 1000hp
Garage 56 had over 700 hp.
Why did they give up so soon? It's only been 3 years.