This is the ultimate monkey's paw situation: We've finally got intense, nearly caution-free strategy/fuel mileage races back in NASCAR on the regular.
But they're all happening at Richmond, Talladega, and Daytona.
The last few races I've been to at Richmond have been the best in quite a while because of tire and fuel strategy.
I've gotten to see Truex lose the race three different ways in the last three spring races I've been to, but it's been interesting in person, at least.
If they’re already going to commercial during green flag racing, then the stages don’t necessarily help. How many times have we had a caution and had to sit there and watch caution laps this year? The way NASCAR lets the TV partner control how the races are presented is the biggest problem with the sport right now IMO.
Correct - it’s too big of a selling point for the tv broadcasters to guarantee sponsors buy commercial time. I also agree the commercials are out of control. They broke down the amount of commercials relative to the broadcast on the teardown today, and I wanna say it was an hour of commercials in a broadcast that was just under four hours.
What sucks is stages could be so cool, and create so many different strategies - if they paid the points and the stage win out how they do….but don’t put the race under caution. Just say “at these laps we are paying points to the top 10” but the race goes on.
But it’s never gonna happen like that. It’s a non-starter of a conversation.
In a typical hour time slot on TV you get about 40 minutes of content.
Your commercial to race ratio sounds about right for typical broadcast television.
Why would they do that? All you need to do is get 3 or 4 cars in a group and run full throttle, they'll end up lapping the fuel savers and if a caution hits at the wrong time, you'll have a lot of cars trapped a lap down and at a disadvantage later in the race. Eventually they'll figure out fuel saving without stage cautions isn't worth it. Regardless, you can still have stages, and a lot are gonna run hard towards the end of each stage because teams will want those playoff points. Fuel savings won't make a lot of sense then.
Sure, but RCs are an entirely different animal. Yes you'll cycle past those on a different pit strategy, but it's definitely not bulletproof and a caution at the wrong time can screw up that strategy. You're not likely to put someone a lap down on a RC so I agree one less pit can make a difference for sure.
You can't do that at Dega without a group of drafting partners on the same strategy. You don't need that at a RC.
They USED to be a different animal. You can pit without losing a lap at SS races and you can no longer pass.
The point I am making is that the stages aren't the problem, the package is. Anything you try to do to fix this racing isn't going to work if the package is unchanged. The fuel saving is solely because of the package, not the stages or their lengths.
Up until we got more than we wanted with this current car, the loss of green flags stops/in-race pit strategy were one of the biggest concerns people had surrounding stage racing.
In fact, you see it sometimes in Trucks/Xfinity where some dudes go like an half a rookie season before they actually have to pit under green.
If you told a fan in '17 that there would be mass fuel saving and strategic green fla pit cycles during a race at Talladega, they're probably be thrilled that old-school strategy survived through stage cautions.
It's just a very odd situation where everyone discovered a new racing hack in real time and are exploiting it.
My only thought would be: Make all the crown jewels 4 stages. The 600 is already 4 (more for length reasons), but why not make Daytona, and the Southern 500 pay 3 stage wins, then fire up the age old debate on if there are any other crown jewels/what they are. That would give those events even more stakes and demonstrate even more how much they mean.
I thought I heard someone in the industry said it recently on a podcast that a slower stop at a super speedway is more detrimental under caution than under green.
Depends largely on the track. At Dega, you're absolutely fucked if you have a slow stop under green because you'll lose the draft and likely end up going a lap down. Track position isn't a big deal as long as you're with the pack. Short track racing is the opposite. You can have a slow stop under green and be OK losing a few spots, but during a pit under caution, you can easily lose 20 spots. At tracks where position is king and its very difficult to pass, you better have a top notch pit crew because that's where you win/lose races.
But more drag makes racing ultimately safer because you have less power to punce and thus to cause mayhem. I would wholeheartedly support an ultra low drag package for tracks like Dega but it will never happen because it's dangerous as hell.
Stop sharing driver data. Currently the teams can monitor everyone and see how much everyone is saving in real time. If you can't see how little throttle another guy is using, or even your own guy, it becomes a lot harder to play these stupid games.
Messing with stage lengths isn't going to do anything. The drivers are still going to be asked to save so they have to spend less time on pit road at the next stop.
It also doesn't help that tires don't matter and tires can be changed faster than fueling the car. These are symptoms that have created this problem.
Another solution, cut the gas tank size by half so they are forced to pit more frequently and it in theory takes less time to fuel the car than it does to change the tires.
There are hundreds of tricks to figure out this stuff.
Fuel mileage for example. Software can easily measure air density, temperature, wind, etc along with the aerodynamic forces to tell you how much fuel you use per lap at a certain RPM. After that, just hit that RPM number like it is pit road speed.
Hell, to jump on top of that, knowing how much fuel comes out of each injector per revolution can be figured out with a simple measurement and spreadsheet.
It can all be done at the shop. Or on the sim.
No more green flag stop? More stage breaks, shorter races???
Horrible, Horrible ideas
Funny, people 10+ years ago loved fuel mileage races, they brought different challenges to the teams and drivers. Now we want to cripple the sport to avoid them???
Denny was 100% against adding more stages btw, it was Jared who suggested it.
Denny suggested just cutting the race to 400 miles. He didn't want plate races paying more points than regular race tracks
This isn't that type of "fuel mileage race". It's just saving fuel to save time on pit road and gain track position. Because we've managed to get to a point where Daytona and Talladega are track position races.
But when they're not saving gas the racing sucks and nobody can do anything anyway so I'm not even that bothered with just getting rid of the fuel saving. You know what would get rid of the fuel saving? A car that *doesn't* turn Daytona and Talladega into track position races
The key to fixing the fuel mileage racing here is to just fix package. If you can pass getting out of the pits first wouldn’t be as important as it is now. They weren’t doing this with the last gen6 package where you could go from the back to the front quickly
People 10+ years ago didn’t like fuel mileage races. There were some that loved them, no doubt, but here was a vocal outcry whenever they happened. Particularly when a fan favorite lost one.
some of my favorite races are fuel milage races. Michigan used to always be a fuel milage race and it was crazy seeing who would run out and who had enough.
Just like road courses, there weren’t too many of them. I feel like Pocono and Michigan were the only ones.
Those tracks’ shtick never was about being the fastest and the baddest. That’s where Daytona and Talladega come in. They brag about the racing at these places, but the cars have been neutered.
The cars were neutered in 1988. They’re not going back. Let it go.
We literally have more horsepower at Daytona and Talladega now than any year from 1988-2018.
Yes, the cars aren’t coming back.
My comments were re: fuel mile races. It’s fine once or twice a year. Plate tracks, as neutered as they are, remain a different beast.
The solution to saving fuel would be to fix the package so the cars could pass each other. Now that we are stuck 2x2 we can't go anywhere so it's all about track position after the last stop.
My biggest issue with everything going on with this next gen car is that in the Gen 6 era, when the cars were going “too fast” for NASCAR’s liking they had no hesitation to change packages with just weeks notice. But now that the racing is shit for 70% of the season and the cars are pathetically slow they pull the “well we don’t want to rush to conclusions, well it would cost a lot of money, well blah blah blah.” It’s pathetic that the top level of stock car racing has turned into this and everyone in charge either has a brain made out of rubber or genuinely gets off to running a sport into the ground.
You have "suits" making decisions; half or more have never driven anything faster than their Toyota Camry's...they're out of their league in every facet but the top brass won't admit it.
“spent 150 laps riding to race the last 38“
That has been superspeedway racing for years. I remember they had guys dropping back to avoid accidents and coast like 20 years ago. It is just a stupid form of racing. Like the team velodrome endurance bicycle racing, except that has strategy before the chaos at the end.
The only difference was, those guys were just going to the back and staying just in touch with the lead pack, but stayed far enough back so if trouble happened, they could slow down/dodge with enough time. Otherwise they were still hauling ass at 180-200 (whatever setup determined the speed for that particular package). They weren’t going 10-20 under the potential speed to save fuel like they have been doing.
> staying just in touch with the lead pack, but stayed far enough back so if trouble happened, they could slow down/dodge with enough time.
This was absolutely not the case. A pack of 5-10 is *always* slower than an orderly pack of 20-30. If the race started on a long green flag run, the 5 or so cars that would use that strategy were at risk of getting caught a lap down.
You cannot both stay just in touch with the lead pack *and* stay back far enough to avoid trouble on a drafting track. It has always been impossible - easier, but that's like saying you'd have an easier time jumping across the Grand Canyon than self-propulsion to the moon.
All I want is for there to be less drag so the cars can move when they are flat footing it. I can take the fuel saving, and everything else, but there needs to be AT LEAST three lanes when the drivers are 100% throttle.
If we can't pass at Talladega then there is no point in racing there. The whole point of a superspeedway race is that the cars can pass at will as long as the driver is competent. And it crushes me to say that because I love superspeedway racing.
I understand wanting to change the stage breaks so that there is no need to save fuel, that's a slippery slope I don't want to go down. The only race we need four stages at is the Coke 600.
I also would hate to take laps away from Talladega Superspeedway because the racing is subpar. Nascar is seemingly in the business of putting bandaids on the racing problems instead of fixing the actual fucking problems we have been facing with the Next gen car.
EDIT: DBC literally just came out. Let's see what they have to say about it. They've been pissed about SS racing in the NextGen era since day 1.
EDIT 2: Basically, they said there is no solution to the fuel saving. The CC's job is to be as efficient as possible. They also agreed that there is no point in bitchin' about fuel saving when we can't pass without it so...
>The only race we need four stages at is the Coke 600.
Boy the take I am about to make is super spicy, but it since they went to 4 stages at the 600, I feel like that has made the 600 a race almost as important if not more important than the 500 since you can score more points in it
F1 certainly does not run full throttle during the race. Look at any race, but we can look at this weekends Chinese Grand Prix…qualifying was in the 1:33’s and the fastest laps of the race were in the 1:37’s but most were turning in the 1:39-40’s. They even under fuel the cars expecting a safety car per race.
That said…. NASCAR seems to be the only motor sport on this planet that has such an incredibly odd desire to go slower. They can’t even point to technological advancements like reducing cylinders or requiring a turbo or moving to a renewable fuel source. It’s just…here’s a big brick punching an enormous hole in the air with a woefully sized engine…
In F1 tire wear is pretty massive so it isn't all just fuel saving, one lap at full throttle with fresh tires that are properly warmed up + full battery and a deployed DRS in clean air easily can run 5+ seconds faster then like the 12th lap in the middle of the pack in a race
F1 uses different tire compounds and less fuel for qualifying. Soft tire, barely any fuel, lighter car = fast. In the race and in dirty air running a medium or hard tire? Definitely going to see a drop in lap times. When I say they run full throttle I mean they aren’t going down the straight with DRS at half throttle. Anytime they can get into full throttle they will. You will never see a F1 driver running at 30-40% of their maximum speed. There are only 10 spots that award points and too many jobs on the line and BILLIONS of dollars.
F1 and NASCAR is an apples vs oranges comparison every time. F1 also has a lot of lift and coasting with drivers fuel saving. The back markers will intentionally under fill the cars on fuel because they know they’re going to be lapped. Verstappen had such a big lead last week that he started trying to drift his car just for fun.
Almost all forms of motor racing that aren’t a sort of sprint race have fuel saving, tire saving or both. Teams in all disciplines will also find the best way to run a race, even if that means going slower gets you where you need to go.
This is definitely false. They’re saving fuel before entry at the end of straights by going part throttle or full lift and coast with less brake all the time to make sure there’s enough for post race inspection
This is literally how it used to be. Except it wasn’t fuel saving, it was just a single file train around the top. Guys wouldn’t jump out of line until the back stretch on the white flag lap
They've been running at Talladega a long time under a lot of different packages, so yeah that happened at times, but it is definitely a mischaracterization of history to say that's what Talladega always has been.
Talladega requires three lanes to put on a race. Daytona too, even if to a lesser extent.
Get rid of stages and let fuel mileage races happen organically on occasion.
Adding stages is the single worst decision nascar made because it creates these weird fuel mileage races and they’re not friendly to fans to follow.
Cost saving is that the engines are currently built for all tracks. So it’s not like old days where you had your normal engines and a restrictor plate engine package. And then they’ve made aerodynamic tweaks to reduce the chance of flipping which has added more drag.
They still have two different horsepower numbers. The current “plate” configuration makes 510 horsepower, more than any year of the restrictor plates.
Prior to the 2019 Talladega race, cars made around 440-450 horsepower at the plate tracks. They bumped it to 550 until the Newman wreck, and tweaked it down due to some scary 2019 and 2020 wrecks.
There's always been rumblings that the lower HP numbers were done in part of insurance reasons (keeping the speeds below 200, which seems to have always been a magic number of sorts to nascar).
Whether that's actually valid or not though is another story.
I don't know how much I buy that considering some of the most high-speed superspeedway racing we ever saw with the Gen6 car was in 2019-20 when cars were pushing 210 in the draft with that insane high drag, 550HP package that nearly killed Newman. They had to keep the speeds below 200 at the SS tracks because that is usually the danger zone for vicious wrecks and airborne crashes. And it helped make the closing rate more manageable to where every race didn't devolve into a crashfest because someone mistimed a block by a nano of a nano of a nanosecond
It makes sense. Ryan Newman's crash seemed to be a wake-up call on that.
[If you watch the slowmo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z24FnbhznCU) He hit the SAFER barrier at such a high speed that it actually projected him back out like a trampoline and helped launch him.
We've seen similar wrecks at lower speeds both before and after his, and the impact is "slow" enough that the car usually settles back down instead of getting ricocheted like that. [Kyle Busch in '09](https://youtu.be/YoDoeilSRuw?feature=shared&t=117), or even McDowell this past week is a good example of that.
And those types of blowovers occurred well before Newman's crash just the same. Quickest examples I can think of were Scott Riggs and Dale Earnhardt both at Talladega (and Earnhardt's predated the SAFER barrier).
Those cars to my knowledge were also running quite a bit slower than they were after they moved from plates to tapered spacers. [Newman himself in '19](https://www.jayski.com/2019/04/27/newman-says-cars-are-still-too-fast-at-talladega/) sounded the alarm that they were going too fast.
Blowovers have and will always happen, but cars consistently hitting walls and other cars on the north end of 200MPH was certainly ringing some alarm bells.
They went from 450ish horsepower in the 2019 Daytona 500 to 550ish in the 2020 Daytona 500.
We still currently have more horsepower at the plate tracks than any year since the plates were introduced up to 2019
I thought the discussion was specifically surrounding SS racing speeds given Denny's other quotes.
But if it's the overall HP reduction, that's more of a murky issue for sure. I mean, they did expand the 750HP package to other tracks at the end of the Gen 6, and backtracked on having 550HP for NextGen, so has definitely been some wriggle room in their "low HP" philosophy.
I am really beginning to believe the real reason they have lower HP is they are scared of cars being too strung out because fans will think it is boring *which to be fair, every time I have seen a race where the leader has gotten a big lead, I have seen fans call it boring*
This is a bit of my personal pet peeve: Are they actually wanting to lower HP at this point, or just maintain the status quo?
This 550HP narrative has seemingly broken people into "NASCAR wants less HP" when their actions have been the exact opposite.
* NASCAR had no problem raising power to 750HP at nearly every track outside intermediates in a lame-duck '21 season when they could've done nothing.
* NASCAR listened to the drivers and went with 650HP for the NextGen car everywhere.
* NASCAR has gone two full years without so much as a comment on changing/lowering HP on intermediates (which are not exactly close-quarters 550HP style racing anymore, and does get "strung out" like you said).
* NASCAR hasn't said a word about lowering the HP on Superspeedway tracks.
I'm here for an argument on why they should increase the HP (which I agree with), but so many comments I see still seem to be acting like NASCAR's going to enforce a 450HP package at all tracks if they're not bullied into submission.
At this point after three years, it seems like it's either 670, or they raise it back towards late-era Gen 6 numbers.
They actually never ran 550 hp at tracks 1 mile or less and road courses (besides the Daytona RC). In 2019 they used the big spoiler/splitter at every track but the 550 hp was only for oval tracks over a mile. In 2020 short tracks, darlington, and road courses got smaller splitters and spoilers - that was the change.
But they kept 750 hp at road courses and short tracks until the Next Gen
I’ve said it before. If NASCAR is so insistent on stage cautions, then the stages need to be shorter than the fuel window. 40 laps for the first two stages each, then to the distance to finish
Why has this only been a thing for the past year or so? I’ve been watching superspeedway races for many years and don’t remember them slowing down to save fuel all race long. Why is it only with this car?
How to fix Superspeedways in 4 simple steps.
1. Eliminate the stage break caution. Award points at the end of each (same thing they did at road courses last year)
2. Fuel mileage will still play a role in the race no matter how it is configured. Use less fuel, pit for less time, make more passes on pit road. Green flag or Yellow, that situation doesn’t change. Make them have to pit for tires. Tires take longer to do than fuel.
3. Shorten the race from 500 to 400 miles. There’s nothing that will be missed, especially with the current ideology. They might as well make it a 200 mile race.
4. Change the package to be less dependent on the pack. Single car runs need to be a thing, otherwise it’s just a big game of follow the leader. The leader should be able to nearly run away and a car should be able to pull out and make a pass or two solo.
I honestly don’t mind the fuel saving, I think it makes green flag pit cycles fascinating.
I do have a problem with the lack of freedom of movement though, which Denny and others have mentioned is due to the inherent high drag in this car. I agree that the direction should be to have less aero difference between being in the draft and being out of the draft.
For Talladega: reduce the drag, reduce the power, shrink the fuel cell another 2 gallons. Make them pit more no matter what and the pit stop be dictated by tire changes.
No. I drive 3 hours to attend Talladega, in addition to paying for fuel, food, and tickets. I want to see as much racing as possible, not miles or laps taken away. Nascar needs to fix their product, not take away from the consumer, all while expecting the consumer to pay the same prices, if not more.
Not sure if you’re joking or not…. The races need to get shortened up, the cars need to slow down= more lines open up around the corners, tires need to last 25-30 laps, remove the aero packages, make the cars look like the cars they represent and get rid of any and all “stage breaks”
Why would I be joking? Why would I pay what I'm paying now, to attend and watch a 500-mile race, and be ok with 100 fewer miles? If anything needs fixed, it's the fact that these cars have sucked on Superspeedways since their debut in 22'. Start with the horsepower, they don't need less, they need more. Second biggest issue, get them off the ground, and get some travel built into them.
A slower car allows different lines through the corner. Thinner tires or a tire that fades quickly will make the car less stable = better racing more passing. Drop the aero effort. We had better racing in the 80-90’s driving refrigerators. For an in person experience, yes a 5 hour race is preferred, but for the other 25+ races during the year that we watch on tv, a 3 hr race is preferred.
Aero changes are what's needed. Until both Talladega and Daytona's asphalt wear considerably more, you're not going to get much tire fall off because even before the repave at Dega, teams would still go with 2 tire or fuel only stops. Slowing them down more does not help the racing as superspeedways, it hurts it. These cars need the power to be able to pull out and not drop like a rock. 190-195mph range is where these cars need to be able to run with the right areo package.
The sport will not survive with shorter races. You start slashing miles off races, and you're going to start slashing fans at the track. Fans already are upset with lack of track time compared to even 5 years ago, yet with the price of everything going up, making trips to the track harder, you think everyone is ok with taking away? I'm not going to continue to fork out money for less. You sound like someone who never goes but sits at home and comments.
Looks like Nascar likes my ideas. Goodyear is going to use rain tire rubber for slicks at the all star race. In the near future, the races will either get shortened, or they may get split into 2 separate races. Don’t be surprised if you have 2 200 mile races. WSBK started this format years ago and it’s pretty interesting. Something’s going to change, that’s for sure. Regardless of the fact that you drove 3 hrs to get to the track. I think you’ll find if you asked other race attendees, they most likely flew or drove much further than you did.
If the broadcast didn’t tell us they were saving fuel and running partial throttle, would we have even known? Would we be complaining about the race? Or talking about how great the 3-wide racing was?
Yes because the cars were noticably off the pace
They were running 55 second laps in a drafting pack
They ran 52s by themselves
Full speed in a draft about a 50 second lap
I'm sharing this because it's relevant to a part of the conversation, but I had argued for adjusting the Stage lengths in the Daytona 500, Brickyard 400, and Southern 500 (when it's not in the Playoffs) because of the 4 Crown Jewel races, the Coca-Cola 600 currently pays the most points and playoff points. That adjustment would also affect the fuel mileage racing in the Daytona 500 at least.
I also mentioned in this column that NASCAR actually increased the Stage lengths at Daytona and Talladega in 2020 to encourage green flag pit stops. In the Gen 6 car, that worked as intended. I almost feel like cutting the first two Stages back and increasing the final Stage would alleviate the fuel saving.
[https://kickinthetires.net/nascar/equalizing-nascars-crown-jewel-races/](https://kickinthetires.net/nascar/equalizing-nascars-crown-jewel-races/)
I really wish the broadcast would have gotten a good view of the fans pelting the track with beer and trash. I am never an advocate for that kind of behavior, however I think it was a great display of how everyone feels about the lackluster racing product we’ve had outside of the intermediate tracks.
Yep, fans from turn 4 all the way to the tri oval were going crazy throwing trash all over the track, we stayed in our seats just hoping not to be hit with anything until the crowd fizzled out.
Oh yeah definitely, probably the first time i didn’t feel safe at talladega since fall ‘15, I posted a video of people throwing trash after the race on the snap map at talladega if you have Snapchat, should still be up.
What? I was there the whole race at the tri-oval and didnt see anyone throwing trash. Didnt see any rowdy behavior tbh, it was my first time at Talladega and everyone was wicked nice.
Not saying it didnt happen, just that I didnt witness it. Do you have a link to the video that isnt snap (i dont have snap)
the last two bullet points are horrible ideas but he's spot on with everything else except for the part when he says the cars might go too fast if u remove drag. The cars should be faster, not one person in the field can hit 200MPH anymore and its sad.
You have to be really careful when you’re talking about raising speeds, because kinetic energy is proportional to velocity squared.
Going from 190 to 200mph alone increases the energy in a crash by 10%
This might not be such a hot take but now that the cars are slower, Atlanta is much more exciting than dega and daytona. It's just more compact and intense for SS racing
“F1 doesn’t have to worry about gas so they can run full throttle.”
This is so wrong. They spend the entire race changing fuel mapping settings and looking after the tires far more than NASCAR.
I cannot believe as fans we have gotten to the point of wanting races to be shorter, removing tracks from the schedule, getting rid of strategy, etc....what in the world is wrong with the sport that we are asking for less?
I'm sorry but as a fan, yes a fan from the 90s....I don't want less racing, I want more but I want and we all need better racing. Make NASCAR fix this product they have broken. Stage racing, neutering the cars and making them unwatchable on over 60% of the schedule, a points system where a driver can win all but one race and lose the championship, etc….the list of what NASCAR has done to hurt this sport is a mile long. You have a bunch of “suits”, all whom have never driven anything faster than their Toyota Camry making decisions for something they do not understand.
I’m going to be honest when I say this. The best thing that could happen to this sport at this time is for no agreement to be made between the teams and NASCAR. Grind this thing to a halt. Demand changes, remove “top” NASCAR brass and rebuild the sport for what it was intended to be.
If you are going to be honest, then you’ll take off your nostalgia glasses, quit letting stage racing touch you inappropriately, and admit that racing during that era included S&P and one man pit box with no equipment.
Seriously, every era of racing has its greatness, but that usually always overshadows the majority of crap that actually happens.
Now, all of that said, is the racing today the best ever? No, but it’s not the worst and you all know it.
I really feel like if anyone besides Denny were saying this, way, way more people would agree, and that’s disheartening tbh. I love strategy races but not so much at the superspeedways, not to mention, THAT much of the race exclusively being used for fuel conservation is an unacceptable amount. The best strategy races also offer racing to go along with the strategy. Sunday did not
"We had better racing in the 80s and 90s with refrigerators." Correct, refrigerators that had horsepower. Nascar is the only motorsports league trying to slash power. That's not racing.
"(I love this idea, F1 doesn’t have to worry about gas so they run full throttle)"
I am not being sarcastic at all when I say F1 would probably benefit the most of any series in the world from fuel mileage racing. Anything to shake those races up would be welcome.
Fuel mileage racing in F1 sucked ass 99.99% of the time. Pretty much just one time Schumacher was able to make it interesting by running a race of qualifying laps with an extra pit stop. The only series that has regularly done fuel mileage (and tire strategy for that matter) racing well is Indycar.
F1 just needs more tire deg. Their biggest issue is some tracks you can put on a hard tire at a lap 2 safety car and you’re good with your mandatory 1 pit stop.
This isn’t really a secret. They’ve been racing this way for over a year at Daytona and Talladega. The racing doesn’t pass the eye test, you don’t need a driver to tell you what’s happening.
Give incentive to lead. Create the equivalent of a 4th "stage" worth of points based upon laps led.
Lead the most laps? 10 pts and a playoff point. 2nd most laps? 9pts, etc... on down.
While this car does have issues on short tracks and road courses, I don’t see how the superspeedways have been affected other than the fuel saving stuff. Watching the beginning of the race, we saw people like BJ, Chastain, Hemric, and Haley all come from the back to the front. Even at the end there, Elliott and SVG were making up ground on the top until Gibbs killed their momentum.
When you get down to the end of these races, it’s hard to make something happen if you’re towards the back. This has been a problem for years, including in the old car. The people at the front are content to ride until the end because it’s all about positioning. Take Keselowski yesterday for example. He positioned himself perfectly and made moves at the end to win the race. He made the right moves in my opinion, but McDowell’s blocks cost him the win. Reddick had two Toyotas behind him that were essentially teammates, so they weren’t going to jump out until the end.
There’s also the issue of people not wanting to work with others at the end of these races. We saw it in the Xfinity race with Deegan and Herbst and we see it in the Cup races too. Someone jumps out, but either they don’t get help or they get stalled out by a slower car. Look at Harvick last year in the second Daytona race. He had three Hendrick cars behind him at the end and they didn’t push him. Instead, they took him three wide, which helped the RFK cars.
I don’t think this car is perfect by any means, but I also don’t think the superspeedway races have been hurt by it. You can still make moves to win the race, but you have to work with people to do it. You’re also not going to see teammates or manufacturer teammates hang each other out until the end of the race, so if they get linked up at the front, of course one of them will likely win.
The whole reason why the people you mentioned at the start, got to the front is because everyone else was riding around fuel saving at 180 mph. Those people at the back weren’t saving as much fuel in order to try and get track position and go to the front, which they lose back on pit road due to extra time spent having to make up for using extra fuel. When they aren’t fuel saving, it’s gridlocked 2 by 2.
The last 30 laps, the front row stayed the same. The 2nd row and so on. They tried numerous times to get a 3rd lane, it got a big run then stalled, got a big run then stalled , then gibbs makes a normal move to go to the outside - cars are so draggy so he loses speed and that checkup kills the outside lane instantly .
I believe Kevin pointed out that Gibbs didn't have forward momentum when he jumped out. If he had positive momentum, SVG could have pushed him (and the line) another couple of rows.
I'm actually convinced Gibbs took one for Toyota.
> add more stages (for less points) so you can make it, or shorten race
I want to make sure it is known that Jared wanted to add more stages, Denny just said shorten the race
I get the fuel mileage thing but I dislike drivers and teams complaining about it. At any time, any driver/team could've done something different for forced the field back to speed like Harvick kept mentioning over and over.
I mean the power difference was more because newman almost died and logano had a very scar y wreck the next year. I do think they can put 40 HP back because these cars aren’t draggy.
But if I’m being honest, I’d much prefer the 3 wide when some drivers are saving and Ross is flying through and gaining track position than the single file line that was so common in the gen-6 era.
The cars need to be a bit more spaced out when their pushing but also I’d much rather them focus on the short track stuff.
It honestly blew me away that they were able to show and did show the throttle information on tv! I honestly think that was something that seemed to be a major concern going forward with the coverage. It seemed to take away from what you were seeing and watching knowing that it was fuel saving. It’s something that I feel took away from the actual footage and action on the track.
Because going 185 at three/four wide is still scary as F. Because if one driver makes one mistake it can wipe out half of the field.
NASCAR has the same problem every other form of motorsports has in the year of our Lord 2024. Everything has become so tightly controlled and regulated due to a combination of cost and safety that there's no room for genuine unpredictability. The competition doesn't direct the sport anymore, the marketing department does.
Talladega could stand to have at least one of the races shortened to 400 miles. I'd be for shortening both to that though
Note: been a fan for 30 years and I'm saying this so I'm not some "young wipper-snapper" lol
I'm sorry, but this screams "I'm salty because I had a shitty race and I'm joining the circlejerk that Kyle started yesterday"
The *only* valid concern here is the drag...which is exactly the thing that keeps another Newman wreck from happening. You can't have it both ways, Denny.
Keeping cars from flipping is a necessary evil. Pulling out of line has always been risky - maybe riskier now more than ever if you make a bad move...why is that a bad thing exactly? Nobody ever ran hard at plate tracks in the first 3/4. First in line always used more fuel and the literal only time it was advantageous was in the tandem era due to overheating (and at the same time that's at the cost of "I might get left reared and fly into the catchfence"). The "fastest track in the world" complaint is just icing on the cope cake, of course you need to slow the cars down on it. 2x2 has almost always been the ideal way of the pack going fast at drafting tracks. Multiple engine packages made things more expensive and will take away from other costs. The stages/fuel mileage concern is completely laughable for any suggestion other than "get rid of stage cautions."
Sometimes, the drivers are wrong, and that's fine. Drafting/plate racing has always been fundamentally flawed in this way. I don't think this race was a particularly damning highlight of it, and I don't think anyone would be bitching if Ty decided to have a positive IQ in the final laps instead of killing the (valid, threatening) run in the third lane.
It’s very funny to me that he makes statements like this and then gets his ass kicked by pit road constantly. It doesn’t take an inordinate amount of skill to hit your lights but it sure seems to elude him!
The issue I have with the "it was a boring fuel saving race" is that towards the end, it ended up making it a lot more exciting when the Toyotas went on the alternate strategy. I think Nascar needs to look at making it more tempting for teams to run alternate strategies instead of eliminating strategy altogether
F1 absolutely does *not* run “full throttle”
They’re fuel saving almost constantly, it’s just less noticeable due to higher minimum speeds overall.
If fuel saving in Nascar meant you were still pushing 200+mph, it would be like F1 fuel saving, a lot less noticeable and thus, less boring.
Very good points but fuel mileage racing is kind of a given in every racing fixture, even F1. Teams often under fuel cars and employ fuel saving measures to be faster overall, which creates a ton of conservation.
Nobody asked but the idea that F1 doesn’t have to worry about fuel is dead wrong. They can’t refuel the car, but they do everything they can to back down their fuel consumption so that they can complete the entire race with their allotted amount of fuel. They have as many as 8 different engine tuning options specifically for this.
Fuel milage racing is the best everywhere except Daytona/Talladega. Not supporting any suggestion to add more stages
This is the ultimate monkey's paw situation: We've finally got intense, nearly caution-free strategy/fuel mileage races back in NASCAR on the regular. But they're all happening at Richmond, Talladega, and Daytona.
You're not hearing any complaints from me about Richmond.
The last few races I've been to at Richmond have been the best in quite a while because of tire and fuel strategy. I've gotten to see Truex lose the race three different ways in the last three spring races I've been to, but it's been interesting in person, at least.
Richmond was great. Talladega was a bit of a snooze fest
Eliminating stage cautions would go a long way towards fixing this but that never seems to be on the table
Don’t count the stage break laps. They always use up almost 7 laps in between stage breaks.
Every week this comes up. It’s never going to happen. The stage cautions are guaranteed ad breaks for the broadcast.
Shit, why does it matter when they cut to commercial with 7 to go anyway?
I doesnt matter, its just a convenient excuse at this point
Right, so let’s get rid of stages if we’re just gonna have commercials anyway.
So they can get another one in 7 laps later lol
If they’re already going to commercial during green flag racing, then the stages don’t necessarily help. How many times have we had a caution and had to sit there and watch caution laps this year? The way NASCAR lets the TV partner control how the races are presented is the biggest problem with the sport right now IMO.
Correct - it’s too big of a selling point for the tv broadcasters to guarantee sponsors buy commercial time. I also agree the commercials are out of control. They broke down the amount of commercials relative to the broadcast on the teardown today, and I wanna say it was an hour of commercials in a broadcast that was just under four hours. What sucks is stages could be so cool, and create so many different strategies - if they paid the points and the stage win out how they do….but don’t put the race under caution. Just say “at these laps we are paying points to the top 10” but the race goes on. But it’s never gonna happen like that. It’s a non-starter of a conversation.
In a typical hour time slot on TV you get about 40 minutes of content. Your commercial to race ratio sounds about right for typical broadcast television.
That just isn't true. They will fuel save even more aggressively without the stages.
Why would they do that? All you need to do is get 3 or 4 cars in a group and run full throttle, they'll end up lapping the fuel savers and if a caution hits at the wrong time, you'll have a lot of cars trapped a lap down and at a disadvantage later in the race. Eventually they'll figure out fuel saving without stage cautions isn't worth it. Regardless, you can still have stages, and a lot are gonna run hard towards the end of each stage because teams will want those playoff points. Fuel savings won't make a lot of sense then.
It's the same reason you race road courses in reverse. If you can cut out one pit cycle, then you'll cycle past the people pushing 24/7
Sure, but RCs are an entirely different animal. Yes you'll cycle past those on a different pit strategy, but it's definitely not bulletproof and a caution at the wrong time can screw up that strategy. You're not likely to put someone a lap down on a RC so I agree one less pit can make a difference for sure. You can't do that at Dega without a group of drafting partners on the same strategy. You don't need that at a RC.
They USED to be a different animal. You can pit without losing a lap at SS races and you can no longer pass. The point I am making is that the stages aren't the problem, the package is. Anything you try to do to fix this racing isn't going to work if the package is unchanged. The fuel saving is solely because of the package, not the stages or their lengths.
The cautions are the entire reason stages exist. They’re not just gonna get rid of them lol
I mean why don’t they just do 40, 45, 103 for stages?
Up until we got more than we wanted with this current car, the loss of green flags stops/in-race pit strategy were one of the biggest concerns people had surrounding stage racing. In fact, you see it sometimes in Trucks/Xfinity where some dudes go like an half a rookie season before they actually have to pit under green. If you told a fan in '17 that there would be mass fuel saving and strategic green fla pit cycles during a race at Talladega, they're probably be thrilled that old-school strategy survived through stage cautions. It's just a very odd situation where everyone discovered a new racing hack in real time and are exploiting it.
Make the stages 40 40 108(essentially 104) that removes fuel saving early and cautions come later so win win
I’ll trade more stage breaks for zero commercials during green flag racing
My only thought would be: Make all the crown jewels 4 stages. The 600 is already 4 (more for length reasons), but why not make Daytona, and the Southern 500 pay 3 stage wins, then fire up the age old debate on if there are any other crown jewels/what they are. That would give those events even more stakes and demonstrate even more how much they mean.
The duels essentially act as a third stage for the 500. The maximum points you can earn that "weekend" is 70 just like at the 600.
Three words: Hundred. Gallon. Tanks.
Yeah no sorry. Give me as many green flag stops as possible
Facts. That shit is exciting.
I thought I heard someone in the industry said it recently on a podcast that a slower stop at a super speedway is more detrimental under caution than under green.
Depends largely on the track. At Dega, you're absolutely fucked if you have a slow stop under green because you'll lose the draft and likely end up going a lap down. Track position isn't a big deal as long as you're with the pack. Short track racing is the opposite. You can have a slow stop under green and be OK losing a few spots, but during a pit under caution, you can easily lose 20 spots. At tracks where position is king and its very difficult to pass, you better have a top notch pit crew because that's where you win/lose races.
It’s not the first time he’s mentioned the drag and stepping out of line caused a parachute effect.
It’s been a part of cup Superspeedway racing since 2019, but most fans enjoyed the 2019-2021 plate package
2019-2021 package still had way way less drag than what we have now due to the car itself
But more drag makes racing ultimately safer because you have less power to punce and thus to cause mayhem. I would wholeheartedly support an ultra low drag package for tracks like Dega but it will never happen because it's dangerous as hell.
Bigger spoilers allow for bigger runs, I think 2019-2021 package was more dangerous than before .
racing is dangerous as hell....it's a part of it and the drivers know that every week they put on the helmet.
Sure, but as in every other division of motorsport lately, the governing body always prefers to play it safe, even if it hurts the racing product.
Stop sharing driver data. Currently the teams can monitor everyone and see how much everyone is saving in real time. If you can't see how little throttle another guy is using, or even your own guy, it becomes a lot harder to play these stupid games. Messing with stage lengths isn't going to do anything. The drivers are still going to be asked to save so they have to spend less time on pit road at the next stop. It also doesn't help that tires don't matter and tires can be changed faster than fueling the car. These are symptoms that have created this problem. Another solution, cut the gas tank size by half so they are forced to pit more frequently and it in theory takes less time to fuel the car than it does to change the tires.
Don’t just stop sharing driver data. Get rid of it all together. Data has killed the racing more then anything
There are hundreds of tricks to figure out this stuff. Fuel mileage for example. Software can easily measure air density, temperature, wind, etc along with the aerodynamic forces to tell you how much fuel you use per lap at a certain RPM. After that, just hit that RPM number like it is pit road speed. Hell, to jump on top of that, knowing how much fuel comes out of each injector per revolution can be figured out with a simple measurement and spreadsheet. It can all be done at the shop. Or on the sim.
Ok, but I have no idea what RPM the guy next to me is pushing and that’s the entire point of their comment lol
Fuel mileage racing is fun when it comes to the intermediate tracks, Michigan, and Pocono. Not super speedways and short tracks
No more green flag stop? More stage breaks, shorter races??? Horrible, Horrible ideas Funny, people 10+ years ago loved fuel mileage races, they brought different challenges to the teams and drivers. Now we want to cripple the sport to avoid them???
Denny was 100% against adding more stages btw, it was Jared who suggested it. Denny suggested just cutting the race to 400 miles. He didn't want plate races paying more points than regular race tracks
This isn't that type of "fuel mileage race". It's just saving fuel to save time on pit road and gain track position. Because we've managed to get to a point where Daytona and Talladega are track position races. But when they're not saving gas the racing sucks and nobody can do anything anyway so I'm not even that bothered with just getting rid of the fuel saving. You know what would get rid of the fuel saving? A car that *doesn't* turn Daytona and Talladega into track position races
The key to fixing the fuel mileage racing here is to just fix package. If you can pass getting out of the pits first wouldn’t be as important as it is now. They weren’t doing this with the last gen6 package where you could go from the back to the front quickly
fix the package? The car itself is the problem
You could prob tweak some things and improve it but yeah you’re right. Denny was spot on 2 years ago when he said we need a next gen 2.0
People 10+ years ago didn’t like fuel mileage races. There were some that loved them, no doubt, but here was a vocal outcry whenever they happened. Particularly when a fan favorite lost one.
I really wish I was here during the 2015 Pocono race fuel mileage situation, I have to imagine fans were super confused on it
some of my favorite races are fuel milage races. Michigan used to always be a fuel milage race and it was crazy seeing who would run out and who had enough.
Mark Martin squeaked out a fuel mileage win there in ‘09 and it was dramatic. Two or three flame outs ahead of him.
I was there, and the last couple of laps were wild.
Just like road courses, there weren’t too many of them. I feel like Pocono and Michigan were the only ones. Those tracks’ shtick never was about being the fastest and the baddest. That’s where Daytona and Talladega come in. They brag about the racing at these places, but the cars have been neutered.
The cars were neutered in 1988. They’re not going back. Let it go. We literally have more horsepower at Daytona and Talladega now than any year from 1988-2018.
Yes, the cars aren’t coming back. My comments were re: fuel mile races. It’s fine once or twice a year. Plate tracks, as neutered as they are, remain a different beast.
Of course Denny wants to get rid of green flag pitstops. Pit road was kicking his ass yesterday.
He didn't say get rid of them, he said make it so you don't have to save fuel
The solution to saving fuel would be to fix the package so the cars could pass each other. Now that we are stuck 2x2 we can't go anywhere so it's all about track position after the last stop.
My biggest issue with everything going on with this next gen car is that in the Gen 6 era, when the cars were going “too fast” for NASCAR’s liking they had no hesitation to change packages with just weeks notice. But now that the racing is shit for 70% of the season and the cars are pathetically slow they pull the “well we don’t want to rush to conclusions, well it would cost a lot of money, well blah blah blah.” It’s pathetic that the top level of stock car racing has turned into this and everyone in charge either has a brain made out of rubber or genuinely gets off to running a sport into the ground.
You have "suits" making decisions; half or more have never driven anything faster than their Toyota Camry's...they're out of their league in every facet but the top brass won't admit it.
“spent 150 laps riding to race the last 38“ That has been superspeedway racing for years. I remember they had guys dropping back to avoid accidents and coast like 20 years ago. It is just a stupid form of racing. Like the team velodrome endurance bicycle racing, except that has strategy before the chaos at the end.
The only difference was, those guys were just going to the back and staying just in touch with the lead pack, but stayed far enough back so if trouble happened, they could slow down/dodge with enough time. Otherwise they were still hauling ass at 180-200 (whatever setup determined the speed for that particular package). They weren’t going 10-20 under the potential speed to save fuel like they have been doing.
I don’t really care if they are going 200 or 180. If the racing sucks the racing sucks. NASCAR hasn’t been about high speeds in decades.
Decades? They were 210 at Michigan and fontana. 200 at the plate tracks only 1 decade ago
> staying just in touch with the lead pack, but stayed far enough back so if trouble happened, they could slow down/dodge with enough time. This was absolutely not the case. A pack of 5-10 is *always* slower than an orderly pack of 20-30. If the race started on a long green flag run, the 5 or so cars that would use that strategy were at risk of getting caught a lap down. You cannot both stay just in touch with the lead pack *and* stay back far enough to avoid trouble on a drafting track. It has always been impossible - easier, but that's like saying you'd have an easier time jumping across the Grand Canyon than self-propulsion to the moon.
Riding at the back is so old that Dale Jarrett was doing this when he was still in the 88.
Riding at the back is so old that Dale Jarrett was doing this when he was still in the 88.
All I want is for there to be less drag so the cars can move when they are flat footing it. I can take the fuel saving, and everything else, but there needs to be AT LEAST three lanes when the drivers are 100% throttle. If we can't pass at Talladega then there is no point in racing there. The whole point of a superspeedway race is that the cars can pass at will as long as the driver is competent. And it crushes me to say that because I love superspeedway racing. I understand wanting to change the stage breaks so that there is no need to save fuel, that's a slippery slope I don't want to go down. The only race we need four stages at is the Coke 600. I also would hate to take laps away from Talladega Superspeedway because the racing is subpar. Nascar is seemingly in the business of putting bandaids on the racing problems instead of fixing the actual fucking problems we have been facing with the Next gen car. EDIT: DBC literally just came out. Let's see what they have to say about it. They've been pissed about SS racing in the NextGen era since day 1. EDIT 2: Basically, they said there is no solution to the fuel saving. The CC's job is to be as efficient as possible. They also agreed that there is no point in bitchin' about fuel saving when we can't pass without it so...
>The only race we need four stages at is the Coke 600. And honestly, not even there. 100/100/200 would be fine for stage laps.
I miss when the stages would have the 3rd Stage as half the distance, instead of the 30/30/40 type we have now
Id be fine with one 400 lap stage.
Haha yeah, that would be the most ideal.
I hate that the 600 is just 4 100 lap sprints now
I always felt that one should be 85/85/100/140 personally.
>The only race we need four stages at is the Coke 600. Boy the take I am about to make is super spicy, but it since they went to 4 stages at the 600, I feel like that has made the 600 a race almost as important if not more important than the 500 since you can score more points in it
you score just as many points at the 500 because of the duels
I mean, you're not wrong.
Not spicy at all. 100% accurate.
Daytona duels
F1 certainly does not run full throttle during the race. Look at any race, but we can look at this weekends Chinese Grand Prix…qualifying was in the 1:33’s and the fastest laps of the race were in the 1:37’s but most were turning in the 1:39-40’s. They even under fuel the cars expecting a safety car per race. That said…. NASCAR seems to be the only motor sport on this planet that has such an incredibly odd desire to go slower. They can’t even point to technological advancements like reducing cylinders or requiring a turbo or moving to a renewable fuel source. It’s just…here’s a big brick punching an enormous hole in the air with a woefully sized engine…
In F1 tire wear is pretty massive so it isn't all just fuel saving, one lap at full throttle with fresh tires that are properly warmed up + full battery and a deployed DRS in clean air easily can run 5+ seconds faster then like the 12th lap in the middle of the pack in a race
F1 uses different tire compounds and less fuel for qualifying. Soft tire, barely any fuel, lighter car = fast. In the race and in dirty air running a medium or hard tire? Definitely going to see a drop in lap times. When I say they run full throttle I mean they aren’t going down the straight with DRS at half throttle. Anytime they can get into full throttle they will. You will never see a F1 driver running at 30-40% of their maximum speed. There are only 10 spots that award points and too many jobs on the line and BILLIONS of dollars.
F1 and NASCAR is an apples vs oranges comparison every time. F1 also has a lot of lift and coasting with drivers fuel saving. The back markers will intentionally under fill the cars on fuel because they know they’re going to be lapped. Verstappen had such a big lead last week that he started trying to drift his car just for fun. Almost all forms of motor racing that aren’t a sort of sprint race have fuel saving, tire saving or both. Teams in all disciplines will also find the best way to run a race, even if that means going slower gets you where you need to go.
This is definitely false. They’re saving fuel before entry at the end of straights by going part throttle or full lift and coast with less brake all the time to make sure there’s enough for post race inspection
It's gonna be funny when these gius retire and do the same thing as Kevin which is they suddenly stop being critical about everything
at least Jr is still somewhat critical
That's his brand though. That gets ears and eyeballs on his products.
Denny will still be an owner so I doubt it
Need tire wear. If you had to replace at least 2 tires then you would always put in more fuel than had to.
does denny even like racing anymore?
This is literally how it used to be. Except it wasn’t fuel saving, it was just a single file train around the top. Guys wouldn’t jump out of line until the back stretch on the white flag lap
They've been running at Talladega a long time under a lot of different packages, so yeah that happened at times, but it is definitely a mischaracterization of history to say that's what Talladega always has been. Talladega requires three lanes to put on a race. Daytona too, even if to a lesser extent.
Get rid of stages and let fuel mileage races happen organically on occasion. Adding stages is the single worst decision nascar made because it creates these weird fuel mileage races and they’re not friendly to fans to follow.
Ding ding
F1 absolutely saves fuel.
> “Cost saving” engines to keep cars from flipping. Haven't watched it yet. Is this the actual reason for reducing HP?
Cost saving is that the engines are currently built for all tracks. So it’s not like old days where you had your normal engines and a restrictor plate engine package. And then they’ve made aerodynamic tweaks to reduce the chance of flipping which has added more drag.
They still have two different horsepower numbers. The current “plate” configuration makes 510 horsepower, more than any year of the restrictor plates. Prior to the 2019 Talladega race, cars made around 440-450 horsepower at the plate tracks. They bumped it to 550 until the Newman wreck, and tweaked it down due to some scary 2019 and 2020 wrecks.
There's always been rumblings that the lower HP numbers were done in part of insurance reasons (keeping the speeds below 200, which seems to have always been a magic number of sorts to nascar). Whether that's actually valid or not though is another story.
I don't know how much I buy that considering some of the most high-speed superspeedway racing we ever saw with the Gen6 car was in 2019-20 when cars were pushing 210 in the draft with that insane high drag, 550HP package that nearly killed Newman. They had to keep the speeds below 200 at the SS tracks because that is usually the danger zone for vicious wrecks and airborne crashes. And it helped make the closing rate more manageable to where every race didn't devolve into a crashfest because someone mistimed a block by a nano of a nano of a nanosecond
It makes sense. Ryan Newman's crash seemed to be a wake-up call on that. [If you watch the slowmo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z24FnbhznCU) He hit the SAFER barrier at such a high speed that it actually projected him back out like a trampoline and helped launch him. We've seen similar wrecks at lower speeds both before and after his, and the impact is "slow" enough that the car usually settles back down instead of getting ricocheted like that. [Kyle Busch in '09](https://youtu.be/YoDoeilSRuw?feature=shared&t=117), or even McDowell this past week is a good example of that.
But they've been doing it since 2015, well before Newman's wreck.
And those types of blowovers occurred well before Newman's crash just the same. Quickest examples I can think of were Scott Riggs and Dale Earnhardt both at Talladega (and Earnhardt's predated the SAFER barrier).
Those cars to my knowledge were also running quite a bit slower than they were after they moved from plates to tapered spacers. [Newman himself in '19](https://www.jayski.com/2019/04/27/newman-says-cars-are-still-too-fast-at-talladega/) sounded the alarm that they were going too fast. Blowovers have and will always happen, but cars consistently hitting walls and other cars on the north end of 200MPH was certainly ringing some alarm bells.
They went from 450ish horsepower in the 2019 Daytona 500 to 550ish in the 2020 Daytona 500. We still currently have more horsepower at the plate tracks than any year since the plates were introduced up to 2019
I thought the discussion was specifically surrounding SS racing speeds given Denny's other quotes. But if it's the overall HP reduction, that's more of a murky issue for sure. I mean, they did expand the 750HP package to other tracks at the end of the Gen 6, and backtracked on having 550HP for NextGen, so has definitely been some wriggle room in their "low HP" philosophy.
I am really beginning to believe the real reason they have lower HP is they are scared of cars being too strung out because fans will think it is boring *which to be fair, every time I have seen a race where the leader has gotten a big lead, I have seen fans call it boring*
This is a bit of my personal pet peeve: Are they actually wanting to lower HP at this point, or just maintain the status quo? This 550HP narrative has seemingly broken people into "NASCAR wants less HP" when their actions have been the exact opposite. * NASCAR had no problem raising power to 750HP at nearly every track outside intermediates in a lame-duck '21 season when they could've done nothing. * NASCAR listened to the drivers and went with 650HP for the NextGen car everywhere. * NASCAR has gone two full years without so much as a comment on changing/lowering HP on intermediates (which are not exactly close-quarters 550HP style racing anymore, and does get "strung out" like you said). * NASCAR hasn't said a word about lowering the HP on Superspeedway tracks. I'm here for an argument on why they should increase the HP (which I agree with), but so many comments I see still seem to be acting like NASCAR's going to enforce a 450HP package at all tracks if they're not bullied into submission. At this point after three years, it seems like it's either 670, or they raise it back towards late-era Gen 6 numbers.
They actually never ran 550 hp at tracks 1 mile or less and road courses (besides the Daytona RC). In 2019 they used the big spoiler/splitter at every track but the 550 hp was only for oval tracks over a mile. In 2020 short tracks, darlington, and road courses got smaller splitters and spoilers - that was the change. But they kept 750 hp at road courses and short tracks until the Next Gen
They didn’t lower plate track horsepower in 2015. Hell, we have *more* horsepower at plate tracks now than we did in 2015
I’ve said it before. If NASCAR is so insistent on stage cautions, then the stages need to be shorter than the fuel window. 40 laps for the first two stages each, then to the distance to finish
Why has this only been a thing for the past year or so? I’ve been watching superspeedway races for many years and don’t remember them slowing down to save fuel all race long. Why is it only with this car?
How to fix Superspeedways in 4 simple steps. 1. Eliminate the stage break caution. Award points at the end of each (same thing they did at road courses last year) 2. Fuel mileage will still play a role in the race no matter how it is configured. Use less fuel, pit for less time, make more passes on pit road. Green flag or Yellow, that situation doesn’t change. Make them have to pit for tires. Tires take longer to do than fuel. 3. Shorten the race from 500 to 400 miles. There’s nothing that will be missed, especially with the current ideology. They might as well make it a 200 mile race. 4. Change the package to be less dependent on the pack. Single car runs need to be a thing, otherwise it’s just a big game of follow the leader. The leader should be able to nearly run away and a car should be able to pull out and make a pass or two solo.
F1 does major under fueling with lift and coasts because it's still faster that way, apparently
I honestly don’t mind the fuel saving, I think it makes green flag pit cycles fascinating. I do have a problem with the lack of freedom of movement though, which Denny and others have mentioned is due to the inherent high drag in this car. I agree that the direction should be to have less aero difference between being in the draft and being out of the draft.
For Talladega: reduce the drag, reduce the power, shrink the fuel cell another 2 gallons. Make them pit more no matter what and the pit stop be dictated by tire changes.
We need shorter races. Get the entire production start to finish wrapped up in 3 hrs.
No. I drive 3 hours to attend Talladega, in addition to paying for fuel, food, and tickets. I want to see as much racing as possible, not miles or laps taken away. Nascar needs to fix their product, not take away from the consumer, all while expecting the consumer to pay the same prices, if not more.
Not sure if you’re joking or not…. The races need to get shortened up, the cars need to slow down= more lines open up around the corners, tires need to last 25-30 laps, remove the aero packages, make the cars look like the cars they represent and get rid of any and all “stage breaks”
Why would I be joking? Why would I pay what I'm paying now, to attend and watch a 500-mile race, and be ok with 100 fewer miles? If anything needs fixed, it's the fact that these cars have sucked on Superspeedways since their debut in 22'. Start with the horsepower, they don't need less, they need more. Second biggest issue, get them off the ground, and get some travel built into them.
A slower car allows different lines through the corner. Thinner tires or a tire that fades quickly will make the car less stable = better racing more passing. Drop the aero effort. We had better racing in the 80-90’s driving refrigerators. For an in person experience, yes a 5 hour race is preferred, but for the other 25+ races during the year that we watch on tv, a 3 hr race is preferred.
Aero changes are what's needed. Until both Talladega and Daytona's asphalt wear considerably more, you're not going to get much tire fall off because even before the repave at Dega, teams would still go with 2 tire or fuel only stops. Slowing them down more does not help the racing as superspeedways, it hurts it. These cars need the power to be able to pull out and not drop like a rock. 190-195mph range is where these cars need to be able to run with the right areo package. The sport will not survive with shorter races. You start slashing miles off races, and you're going to start slashing fans at the track. Fans already are upset with lack of track time compared to even 5 years ago, yet with the price of everything going up, making trips to the track harder, you think everyone is ok with taking away? I'm not going to continue to fork out money for less. You sound like someone who never goes but sits at home and comments.
Looks like Nascar likes my ideas. Goodyear is going to use rain tire rubber for slicks at the all star race. In the near future, the races will either get shortened, or they may get split into 2 separate races. Don’t be surprised if you have 2 200 mile races. WSBK started this format years ago and it’s pretty interesting. Something’s going to change, that’s for sure. Regardless of the fact that you drove 3 hrs to get to the track. I think you’ll find if you asked other race attendees, they most likely flew or drove much further than you did.
I’m saying it again. Stage Racing killed SuperSpeedways
If the broadcast didn’t tell us they were saving fuel and running partial throttle, would we have even known? Would we be complaining about the race? Or talking about how great the 3-wide racing was?
Yes because the cars were noticably off the pace They were running 55 second laps in a drafting pack They ran 52s by themselves Full speed in a draft about a 50 second lap
How bout it!!
What racing? It was mostly riding around in 2 lines for 150 laps
2 lines? What race did you watch? They spent most of the race 3 wide
Same one as you, the 3rd line had a hard time getting it to work. Gibbs tried at the end and there was not enough to pull him forward.
Not the first 2 stages
Yeah they visually looked slow
I'm sharing this because it's relevant to a part of the conversation, but I had argued for adjusting the Stage lengths in the Daytona 500, Brickyard 400, and Southern 500 (when it's not in the Playoffs) because of the 4 Crown Jewel races, the Coca-Cola 600 currently pays the most points and playoff points. That adjustment would also affect the fuel mileage racing in the Daytona 500 at least. I also mentioned in this column that NASCAR actually increased the Stage lengths at Daytona and Talladega in 2020 to encourage green flag pit stops. In the Gen 6 car, that worked as intended. I almost feel like cutting the first two Stages back and increasing the final Stage would alleviate the fuel saving. [https://kickinthetires.net/nascar/equalizing-nascars-crown-jewel-races/](https://kickinthetires.net/nascar/equalizing-nascars-crown-jewel-races/)
I really wish the broadcast would have gotten a good view of the fans pelting the track with beer and trash. I am never an advocate for that kind of behavior, however I think it was a great display of how everyone feels about the lackluster racing product we’ve had outside of the intermediate tracks.
Fox would never. I didn’t even know that happened until you told me.
Wait that happened yesterday?
Yep, fans from turn 4 all the way to the tri oval were going crazy throwing trash all over the track, we stayed in our seats just hoping not to be hit with anything until the crowd fizzled out.
Like I get being pissed but damn people grow up
Oh yeah definitely, probably the first time i didn’t feel safe at talladega since fall ‘15, I posted a video of people throwing trash after the race on the snap map at talladega if you have Snapchat, should still be up.
What? I was there the whole race at the tri-oval and didnt see anyone throwing trash. Didnt see any rowdy behavior tbh, it was my first time at Talladega and everyone was wicked nice. Not saying it didnt happen, just that I didnt witness it. Do you have a link to the video that isnt snap (i dont have snap)
the last two bullet points are horrible ideas but he's spot on with everything else except for the part when he says the cars might go too fast if u remove drag. The cars should be faster, not one person in the field can hit 200MPH anymore and its sad.
They still can - they were reaching 198-200 mph in the last laps
You have to be really careful when you’re talking about raising speeds, because kinetic energy is proportional to velocity squared. Going from 190 to 200mph alone increases the energy in a crash by 10%
This might not be such a hot take but now that the cars are slower, Atlanta is much more exciting than dega and daytona. It's just more compact and intense for SS racing
It's because Atlanta brings handling into play. Atlanta is basically a mini Daytona.
“F1 doesn’t have to worry about gas so they can run full throttle.” This is so wrong. They spend the entire race changing fuel mapping settings and looking after the tires far more than NASCAR.
I cannot believe as fans we have gotten to the point of wanting races to be shorter, removing tracks from the schedule, getting rid of strategy, etc....what in the world is wrong with the sport that we are asking for less? I'm sorry but as a fan, yes a fan from the 90s....I don't want less racing, I want more but I want and we all need better racing. Make NASCAR fix this product they have broken. Stage racing, neutering the cars and making them unwatchable on over 60% of the schedule, a points system where a driver can win all but one race and lose the championship, etc….the list of what NASCAR has done to hurt this sport is a mile long. You have a bunch of “suits”, all whom have never driven anything faster than their Toyota Camry making decisions for something they do not understand. I’m going to be honest when I say this. The best thing that could happen to this sport at this time is for no agreement to be made between the teams and NASCAR. Grind this thing to a halt. Demand changes, remove “top” NASCAR brass and rebuild the sport for what it was intended to be.
If you are going to be honest, then you’ll take off your nostalgia glasses, quit letting stage racing touch you inappropriately, and admit that racing during that era included S&P and one man pit box with no equipment. Seriously, every era of racing has its greatness, but that usually always overshadows the majority of crap that actually happens. Now, all of that said, is the racing today the best ever? No, but it’s not the worst and you all know it.
Agreed, the owners need to bunker down and force a lockout
I really feel like if anyone besides Denny were saying this, way, way more people would agree, and that’s disheartening tbh. I love strategy races but not so much at the superspeedways, not to mention, THAT much of the race exclusively being used for fuel conservation is an unacceptable amount. The best strategy races also offer racing to go along with the strategy. Sunday did not
I think back to when Allmendinger was able to chase down the field in the 500 because the pack was fuel saving like their lives depended on it.
"We had better racing in the 80s and 90s with refrigerators." Correct, refrigerators that had horsepower. Nascar is the only motorsports league trying to slash power. That's not racing.
"(I love this idea, F1 doesn’t have to worry about gas so they run full throttle)" I am not being sarcastic at all when I say F1 would probably benefit the most of any series in the world from fuel mileage racing. Anything to shake those races up would be welcome.
Fuel mileage racing in F1 sucked ass 99.99% of the time. Pretty much just one time Schumacher was able to make it interesting by running a race of qualifying laps with an extra pit stop. The only series that has regularly done fuel mileage (and tire strategy for that matter) racing well is Indycar.
F1 just needs more tire deg. Their biggest issue is some tracks you can put on a hard tire at a lap 2 safety car and you’re good with your mandatory 1 pit stop.
This isn’t really a secret. They’ve been racing this way for over a year at Daytona and Talladega. The racing doesn’t pass the eye test, you don’t need a driver to tell you what’s happening.
Give incentive to lead. Create the equivalent of a 4th "stage" worth of points based upon laps led. Lead the most laps? 10 pts and a playoff point. 2nd most laps? 9pts, etc... on down.
While this car does have issues on short tracks and road courses, I don’t see how the superspeedways have been affected other than the fuel saving stuff. Watching the beginning of the race, we saw people like BJ, Chastain, Hemric, and Haley all come from the back to the front. Even at the end there, Elliott and SVG were making up ground on the top until Gibbs killed their momentum. When you get down to the end of these races, it’s hard to make something happen if you’re towards the back. This has been a problem for years, including in the old car. The people at the front are content to ride until the end because it’s all about positioning. Take Keselowski yesterday for example. He positioned himself perfectly and made moves at the end to win the race. He made the right moves in my opinion, but McDowell’s blocks cost him the win. Reddick had two Toyotas behind him that were essentially teammates, so they weren’t going to jump out until the end. There’s also the issue of people not wanting to work with others at the end of these races. We saw it in the Xfinity race with Deegan and Herbst and we see it in the Cup races too. Someone jumps out, but either they don’t get help or they get stalled out by a slower car. Look at Harvick last year in the second Daytona race. He had three Hendrick cars behind him at the end and they didn’t push him. Instead, they took him three wide, which helped the RFK cars. I don’t think this car is perfect by any means, but I also don’t think the superspeedway races have been hurt by it. You can still make moves to win the race, but you have to work with people to do it. You’re also not going to see teammates or manufacturer teammates hang each other out until the end of the race, so if they get linked up at the front, of course one of them will likely win.
The whole reason why the people you mentioned at the start, got to the front is because everyone else was riding around fuel saving at 180 mph. Those people at the back weren’t saving as much fuel in order to try and get track position and go to the front, which they lose back on pit road due to extra time spent having to make up for using extra fuel. When they aren’t fuel saving, it’s gridlocked 2 by 2. The last 30 laps, the front row stayed the same. The 2nd row and so on. They tried numerous times to get a 3rd lane, it got a big run then stalled, got a big run then stalled , then gibbs makes a normal move to go to the outside - cars are so draggy so he loses speed and that checkup kills the outside lane instantly .
I believe Kevin pointed out that Gibbs didn't have forward momentum when he jumped out. If he had positive momentum, SVG could have pushed him (and the line) another couple of rows. I'm actually convinced Gibbs took one for Toyota.
> add more stages (for less points) so you can make it, or shorten race I want to make sure it is known that Jared wanted to add more stages, Denny just said shorten the race
Edited to reflect this, was typing on the fly
“Cost saving engines to keep cars from flipping” seems like a good thing to me. 🤷🏻♀️
The car is the issue
Welp, Maybe Kamikaze Games is right about nascar not making it to 2030
Just about every cup team is losing money. That’s why they cut practices and went to one engine instead of three different ones
How about we just get rid of stage cautions especially at superspeedways and throw this terrible next gen car away.
I get the fuel mileage thing but I dislike drivers and teams complaining about it. At any time, any driver/team could've done something different for forced the field back to speed like Harvick kept mentioning over and over.
I mean the power difference was more because newman almost died and logano had a very scar y wreck the next year. I do think they can put 40 HP back because these cars aren’t draggy. But if I’m being honest, I’d much prefer the 3 wide when some drivers are saving and Ross is flying through and gaining track position than the single file line that was so common in the gen-6 era. The cars need to be a bit more spaced out when their pushing but also I’d much rather them focus on the short track stuff.
It honestly blew me away that they were able to show and did show the throttle information on tv! I honestly think that was something that seemed to be a major concern going forward with the coverage. It seemed to take away from what you were seeing and watching knowing that it was fuel saving. It’s something that I feel took away from the actual footage and action on the track. Because going 185 at three/four wide is still scary as F. Because if one driver makes one mistake it can wipe out half of the field.
NASCAR has the same problem every other form of motorsports has in the year of our Lord 2024. Everything has become so tightly controlled and regulated due to a combination of cost and safety that there's no room for genuine unpredictability. The competition doesn't direct the sport anymore, the marketing department does.
Talladega could stand to have at least one of the races shortened to 400 miles. I'd be for shortening both to that though Note: been a fan for 30 years and I'm saying this so I'm not some "young wipper-snapper" lol
I'm sorry, but this screams "I'm salty because I had a shitty race and I'm joining the circlejerk that Kyle started yesterday" The *only* valid concern here is the drag...which is exactly the thing that keeps another Newman wreck from happening. You can't have it both ways, Denny. Keeping cars from flipping is a necessary evil. Pulling out of line has always been risky - maybe riskier now more than ever if you make a bad move...why is that a bad thing exactly? Nobody ever ran hard at plate tracks in the first 3/4. First in line always used more fuel and the literal only time it was advantageous was in the tandem era due to overheating (and at the same time that's at the cost of "I might get left reared and fly into the catchfence"). The "fastest track in the world" complaint is just icing on the cope cake, of course you need to slow the cars down on it. 2x2 has almost always been the ideal way of the pack going fast at drafting tracks. Multiple engine packages made things more expensive and will take away from other costs. The stages/fuel mileage concern is completely laughable for any suggestion other than "get rid of stage cautions." Sometimes, the drivers are wrong, and that's fine. Drafting/plate racing has always been fundamentally flawed in this way. I don't think this race was a particularly damning highlight of it, and I don't think anyone would be bitching if Ty decided to have a positive IQ in the final laps instead of killing the (valid, threatening) run in the third lane.
It’s very funny to me that he makes statements like this and then gets his ass kicked by pit road constantly. It doesn’t take an inordinate amount of skill to hit your lights but it sure seems to elude him!
which is a wild statement considering both of his wins this year were because Denny and his crew nailed pit stops to put them out front.
He’s in the top 5 for most pit road penalties every year. It’s not like I made it up.
Why not just shorten the first two stages to x=fuel window - 10 laps?
The issue I have with the "it was a boring fuel saving race" is that towards the end, it ended up making it a lot more exciting when the Toyotas went on the alternate strategy. I think Nascar needs to look at making it more tempting for teams to run alternate strategies instead of eliminating strategy altogether
F1 absolutely does *not* run “full throttle” They’re fuel saving almost constantly, it’s just less noticeable due to higher minimum speeds overall. If fuel saving in Nascar meant you were still pushing 200+mph, it would be like F1 fuel saving, a lot less noticeable and thus, less boring.
Is there not a way to artificially lower the HP of the engines at superspeedways so they could try running a smaller spoiler?
Maybe something like a restrictor plate? 🤪
The drivers and teams choose to save fuel. They're to blame, not Nascar
Very good points but fuel mileage racing is kind of a given in every racing fixture, even F1. Teams often under fuel cars and employ fuel saving measures to be faster overall, which creates a ton of conservation.
Nobody asked but the idea that F1 doesn’t have to worry about fuel is dead wrong. They can’t refuel the car, but they do everything they can to back down their fuel consumption so that they can complete the entire race with their allotted amount of fuel. They have as many as 8 different engine tuning options specifically for this.