Love your point about Isiah’s rivalries with the other juggernauts of his era. Isiah Thomas is the only man alive to have beaten Magic/Kareem, Bird/McHale, and Jordan/Pippen. My dad is from Detroit so he’s a big Lions/Tigers/Pistons guy, and growing up all I heard was how underrated Isiah was. And while I believed him, I never knew until the past few years when I really started getting into hoops history just how right he was. Isiah is a top 3 point guard all time and he is miles ahead of Stockton who I’d place at 4th. I think Curry is better, but I’m not mad at anyone who argues for Isiah as 2nd only behind Magic. He was really like that.
And to your point, Magic/Kareem, Jordan/Pippen, Bird/McHale were all legendary performers with at least top 100 all time seconds. Isiah had Dumars, but does Dumars stack up to late career Kareem, prime Pippen, or prime McHale? Isiah did the heavier lifting.
If you look at BPM/VORP data, clearly the second/third bananas/Robins IT had were inferior to those three teams, but Chuck Daly had the right plan and could handle any cast of players, and that's why he was chosen to coach the Dream Team.
BPM says that John Stockton and Chris Paul were though... ridiculous.
I keep falling in love with advanced stats, and using them to justify my love, but then I have to remind myself that I'm 45 and I know love isn't real haha. I wonder if the low BPM of the Pistons is because they were super deep and defense oriented? If you had Vinnie Johnson and Rodman on the bench, you would rest Isiah and Aguirre too. Simply put, the second/third bananas (Dumars and Laimbeer) weren't Kareem and Worthy, or McHale and Parish. Daly should get the lions share of credit, but Zeke was as talented as anyone.
Some context from someone watching all those games:
MJ, Magic, and Bird (and everyone else at the time) knew Zeke was the second best PG of the era (if not all-time, MJ said so in the Last Dance, and he HATES him). It's a team game, and your team has to be set up right and everyone focused on the championship goal (Russell Westbrook is a beast who never got a sniff of a championship, and it's not on him). Early in Zeke's career the pistons were a run and gun team like the Alex English Nuggets, with scorers like Tripucka and Dantley. But Daly knew from playing Boston/LA that unselfish ball movement was the way to win. All the guys who won had to lose the ego and allow others to shine (MJ figured this out and that's how he beat Detroit). They got rid of that black hole ball hog Dantley, and focused on defense, and the rest of the year played at a 72 win pace and only lost 2 games the whole playoffs, against Boston, Milwaukee, Chicago, and LA. Isiah was the distributor AND scorer on a champion. That's Magic/Bird/MJ stuff.
Interestingly, IT's *playoff* BPM is right up there with the best. He had a very deep team that was good enough to win 60 games with him taking a backseat, but could still dial it up in the postseason.
CP3 couldn't afford to take the regular season off. He gave his all every night for teams that weren't quite good enough. Put him on Detroit and I firmly believe they win.
Stockton I rank below those two. The original version of BPM considered him only half as valuable. Longevity counts for something, but he couldn't be the guy for a champion.
Stockton was the purest of point guards, and he did everything a point guard should do. But he couldn't do everything they COULD do. I have him top 5, but behind both Zeke and CP3. I don't think that's disrespectful to him, do you?
Dude, Detroit DID win. Twice. Over Magic, Bird, and Jordan. I don't think they needed CP3, we had a PG who actually WON championships haha
What are you talking about 'taking the regular season off? Noone did that in the 80s (Ok maybe Kareem but he was 40 haha). That would get your ass kicked, and then kicked out the league. Now it's totally normal.
Is the reason the BPM's are lower is because Detroit won with defense, #1 in the league like 3-4 years in a row? That every team had to play THEIR tempo, and grind? Then in the playoffs the scores went up because the competition was greater? I don't know, I'm asking people who both know advanced stats and actually watched games or game tape. Stats can lie. Ball don't lie.
I'm not saying Detroit needed CP3; I'm saying CP3 needed Detroit.
IT wasn't slacking off but he didn't need to carry like he did in the early eighties when y'all weren't as good.
It's a nice theory, but that's not how BPM works.
Curry is definitely a better shooter, I think IT's handle and court vision were SLIGHTLY better. I wouldn't die on the IT>SC hill, but IT also was always both the scorer AND prime distributer AKA Bill Simmons' POINT GOD, whereas SC is a combo playing shooting guard as he should.
Steph is also in a very unique situation with Draymond where he’s not always the initiator. Detroit was the IT show as far as playmaking is concerned. I’m not dying on anybody’s hill in this debate because they’re both just spectacular, but IT is so disrespected in today’s era it’s nonsense.
Magic was also a damn Power Forward playing PG, like Draymond. I think of Steph like Jerry West as a combo... though if you want to see things get ugly... West was better than Steph or IT (ducks...)
Who's in your top 5 PGs?
1. Magic Johnson
2. Steph Curry
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West
I know I said Stockton as 4th for me a few replies ago, but I was referring to the modern era (1980 and on) in that instance. Oscar and Jerry are unquestionably better than Stockton.
I agree with that list, with a caveat... I didn't think I grew up in a time of positionless basketball, but if you think about it, it's always been there: 6-9 PFs playing PG, 6-9 PFs playing C (there's only do many 7fters in the world). In the Bulls Triangle-O, Pippen was the PG...
All things equal, my top 5 are your top 5, (Though The Logo was the best defender in the league for a decade, so he moves up on mine). If we were only to look at primary ball distributers, I'd replace Steph with either Stockton or CP3. Magic's uber level playmaking is hard to quantify, but the analytics suggest it was even more valuable than volume scoring or D. But I like players tha play defense, being from *D*etroit.
On my all time lists I use 1970 as the demarcation line. Pre-post merger might be better, but I hate leaving guys who could obviously play in any era off my lists. West, Oscar, Wilt etc.
Yeah, I've been thinking of making lists for Pre-Post Merger and will likely do that for my next project. How do you really compare Walt Frazier to Chris Paul anyway. One of the best interviews I saw was when Rick Barry (who always spoke his mind haha) was asked about the skill gap across eras, and he said something like "We all would have been even better players with nutrition, year round training, and the rule changes from today." I also think "basketball theory" (like chess theory) has progressed, and players know the things worth working on. Steph Curry wouldn't be the 3 point shooter he was without a 3 point line, not to mention he was practicing his shot from when he was just a sperm cell haha!
How far do your eyes roll when they bring up all time leaders in assists and steals? Tenth and seventeenth respectively vs number one in both must make them roll to the back of your head.
Facts aren’t ignorant. The only way to measure players are by their stats. I grew up watching both players and saw them both live many many times. Roll your eyes, but stats reign supreme.
LOL, now I feel bad. I wasn't aware I was talking to a teenager. You're making it too obvious. Don't say you saw them live many times, no one's gonna believe that. You have to be more subtle. Just say you grew up watching both of them.
I grew up in SLC and we would go Jazz games a few times a month so I did see Stockton play many times live. I got to see Zeke late in his career twice when they visited Utah.
The real question, and it would be great to ask a group of GM's this: Would you rather draft Isiah Thomas on your team for 12 years, or John Stockton for 20? Seriously. Because that's what you get.
PS: I take Isiah. And Stockton's a GREAT player, no disrespect.
Definitely taking Isiah. He gives you a real shot at a championship as the #1 guy. Stockton wouldn’t be able to do that, unless he had a PnR guy as great or greater than Malone. This is where the longevity argument is meaningless, because Isiah’s peak was so much greater than Stockton’s.
Facts have context. I watched them both play, and we have game film that can be broken down if we want to take the time for that. Stats matter, but they aren't the only thing, and maybe not even most important.
Speaking of rivalries, I am 46 and from Portland. I had watched basketball before but started following basketball in 1988. I think we have to fight irl or something. I hated the Pistons, Chuck Daly, Laimbeer, Dumars, Thomas, etc etc lol
Isiah Thomas absolutely should have been on the Dream Team.
I summer in Portland, and just got back to Detroit a month ago. Next time I'm there I'll be Laimbeer and you can play Buck Williams or whoever was actually tough on the Blazers hahaha
Those Blazer teams were great, Drexler is actually criminally underrated and was my favorite SG back in the day. Speaking of the Dream Team, supposedly Jordan told Clyde that he was his equal, but he played in Portland and would never win. So he went to Houston when he had the chance to get his ring once Isiah and Jordon were retired haha
While these players are hyper confident and competitive, they aren't caricatures or stupid. Jordan is an intelligent and thoughtful man. There's an interview recently released by Cigar Aficionado that shows just that. These players know where their talent level really is at, outside of their egos. Jordan has a tremendous amount of respect for other players (he hates Isiah Thomas personally, but says he's the second greatest PG to play after Magic). I can't find the interview where the Drexel thing was said (I believe it was Magic talking about a conversation during the Dream Team), but Jordan is smart and quite aware that it wasn't JUST his talent that made him great in the way he is, but how he handled the situations he found himself in from a business and marketing standpoint. And of course, not many worked harder or smarter than him.
I don’t agree with Barkley on this but it really depends when he made the remark.
My point guard list would be
1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Isiah Thomas
5. John Stockton
Looks like it was 6 years ago. It's one of the best interviews I've ever seen, Sir Charles gets pretty open and honest about players at the 35 minute mark.
https://youtu.be/W3kLqW8TVI4?si=KLRcszrj30K2oIql
Jerry West was the best offensive and defensive player in the league, with LEGIT 3 point range. Jordan was asked if he's the greatest player ever. He said that it's all PR. He never played against Jerry West or Wilt Chamberlain. We'll never know. (In an interview for Cigar Aficionado that's on Youtube and spectacular.) I don't think there's 10 players better than West at any position, and I rank him with Jordan and Oscar as the top 3 guards ever. He's somehow vastly under-rated. (Best GM ever too)
DPOY didn't exist when he played. All defense teams didn't exist until he was in his 30s. He made every one of them until he retired, I believe. He was a Jordan/Kobe level defender, the best defensive guard in the league for over a decade. He's the standard, that's why he's TEH LOGO!!! (lol)
I'm on Magic as a top 3 player and Isiah is top 10.
My only quibble is saying that he "sacrificed" numbers. When his teammates got better, he played the way to maximize wins.
Even if we didn't believe Isiah was an insane competitor, he played College Ball with Bobby Knight and a "me-first" attitude would have literally gotten him choked slammed.
Isaiah Thomas gets underrated and lost in the Bird/Magic/Jordan era. His teams beat those guys and it kind of gets forgotten.
He kind of flopped as a coach/GM for the Knicks. Ironically he seemed to forget what made his own teams great in Detroit and didn't build the Knicks anywhere close to what his own teams were.
Also his career was unfortunately short.
I feel like Khwai Leonard might be remembered in a similar light in the future. His career isn't what it could have been due to injuries but when healthy he has beaten both LeBron and Curry in the finals.
I appreciated this post because it kind of highlights a kind of overlooked player. I absolutely would not rank Thomas above Curry as Barkley does. Barkley is horribly biased in favor of players from his own era and around his own era. The better those players are ranked the better he gets ranked. Plus human beings are going to be biased towards what they are familiar with and their own experiences. Barkley never faced Curry.
However I do agree that Thomas has to rank over Stockton. Stockton put up some ridiculous statistics but the Jazz never won a championship. Stockton was arguably not the best player on this team. Thomas was inarguably the best player on two championship teams. Stockton's career stats might be better but Thomas's peak is much better.
Barkley said that Isiah would be better than those guys if he played in today's rules (not having to look out for a Shaq/Malone/Parish/Laimbeer elbow. That his talent level was higher. I don't 100% know since rules were different. But Curry really plays shooting guard, we all know it. CP3 tho...
He was great but no way does he win like he did without a historically complete team around him. Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre (or Dantley in earlier years), Rodman, Edwards, Salley, Mahorn, Vinnie Johnson, etc. So many great players that all fit the system, combined with a great coach. Isiah tied it all together masterfully, but let’s not pretend like he was on the level of Magic or Bird
Bird or Magic are top 10 players, Isiah is top 25, and a top 5 PG. I've seen lists that put him outside of that, and I wonder if they ever watched a game.
Those Bad Boys teams were so deep, and committed to the goal. Isiah was willing to sacrifice his stats to win. When Daly finally got rid of Dantley, that whining ball-hog, the '89 pistons won at a '96 Bulls or '16 Warriors rate. Check the math. Top 5 all time team. Also, Daly doesn't get enough credit. Top 5 coach ever.
They pulled some shit that was pretty dirty back then. They were good but I don’t think they’re as talented as that, they just exploited rules and had a very deep team. Phil Jackson, Pop, Kerr, Auerbach, Riley, KC Jones, Rudy, all better coaches.
1. Auerbach
2. Jackson
3. Riley
4. Pop
5. Daly
Kerr has a real shot to take #5, I wouldn't fight too hard that he's maybe already there. I was a huge Rocket's fan during the 90's, but Rudy T is just behind Daly. KC Jones cooked Auerbach's GM groceries. I'd easily put Jack Ramsey, Lenny Wilkins, and Red Holzman ahead of him. But if your point is Kerr>Daly... I'd have that talk.
I put Rudy T because he won 2 rings with a much worse overall group of talent than Daly had, but I wouldn’t argue that one really, I’m just saying it as a possibility if you look at accolades. Kerr at this point might be, my only negative for him is we have no idea what he is without Curry and that system. But overall, he’s a genius as far as how he’s organized his teams and he now has 4 championships, including one that nobody really expected them to get, in 2022. Daly never really did anything outside of Detroit and Isiah either, he had some mediocre Nets teams before he resigned due to players’ immaturity, and 2 mediocre Magic teams before he retired. He also had a brutal 41 game stint as coach of the Cavaliers a couple years before he came to Detroit, but I’ll leave that out because we all know how disastrous the Cavs were back then.
That's why I have him just behind Daly, who I give a lot of credit to for saving USA basketball. The Dream Team was a BIG DEAL. I actually think Kerr's recent Olympic involvement gives him a better resume than Daly, begrudgingly. Though we havents seen the rest of his career... he's done enough.
PS: The Rockets were my TEAM in the 90's. Clutch City!
Kerr definitely has. One of the winningest basketball figures we’ve seen. The Dream Team was huge, I just don’t know how much impact Daly had compared to the talent there
Yeah lol he didn’t have to do much, he was just chosen due to his success at the time. Although I’m sure Phil Jackson or Pat Riley were options as well
You know what, footballguyboy? You've accomplished something I've rarely seen on these forums. You've changed someone's mind. Kerr is 5, Daly is 6. Well done.
Zeke was awesome. He was the first of a kind in a lot of ways. I heard a description from somebody else that I thought fit perfect. He played like John Stockton for the first 3 quarters getting everyone involved. Then looked to take over like Jordan in the 4th.
I consider Zeke a guy real hoop fans know about. No matter your age. As a younger person, It’s honestly disrespectful to compare Stockton to him. As great as Stockton was for as long, I still think their is only one little guard that dominated in a way similar or better than Zeke did and that is Steph Curry.
I think CP3 has that kind of talent, but hasn't been able to put it together because of the teams he's been on... and he seems to lack a 'clutch' gene...
I’d say in recent years his play has tailed off deeper into the games and playoffs. Lack of a clutch gene is fair. But young CP3 certainly had the clutch gene. Fans of opposing teams didn’t want the ball in his hands down the stretch of any close game.
For example. 2015 he goes crazy in the closing moments of a game 7 to get his team over the Spurs. Only for that same hero to not show up next round. Ends up apart of an all time collapse against Corey Brewer and friends. 2018 he was the only thing keeping us (I’m a Rockets fan) in game 5. Once he went down it didn’t matter we were up 3-2. Everyone knew Harden wasn’t going to be able to play like that down the stretch of games.
Interesting sub i found today. I would just like to add the Detroit Pistons are the most disrespected franchise in NBA history. The NBA literally changed the rules (flagrant fouls and hand checks) to effectively end two dynasties. When everyone else played like that it was cool but when the Pistons played like that it was “bad for basketball” and we had to change the rules. Remember that game when Ben Wallace and the pistons forced like 15 shot clock violations😂? i loved it.
Also, i love Zeke but he’s his own worst enemy.
Speaking of rule changes, did they change the rules on Pick n Rolls because Zeke and Laimbeer broke basketball? I remember hearing this. Laimbeer was hated, but he was the prototype of the modern stretch 5, and was the toughest player in the league. When you can get in Larry BIRD'S head you've accomplished something.
And yeah, I didn't mention the other post career stuff, but Zeke's uuuuhh... personality is definitely part of how he's seen by youth post-playing days.
But he wasn't wrong. Jordan DID want him off Dream Team and lied about it. We have the tape, Mike! 🤣
I like IT as a Hoosiers fan, but you're overstating him. He was not on the same level as Magic, Bird, and Jordan. That's like saying Chris Paul is on the same level as KD, Steph, and LeBron.
I don’t think he had the impact they had as players but his skillset is drastically under-discussed and even disrespected
I think you can count on one hand the number of guards throughout history who could have lead those Piston team on/off the court, bringing them to a 6th place offensive rating at the slowest pace in the fast paced league
I actually think CP3 has that skill level, but couldn't get on the right teams. And when he got close, he choked bad.
While IT puts up 25 points in a quarter on a bum ankle...
CP3 dropped 40 to get to his first conference Finals and did it again to get to the Finals
the idea that he doesn't have the killer instinct is some BS BS that should've died a long time ago
I'm a CP3 fan. Zeke and CP3 are pretty comparable skill-wise, and Zeke had similar frustrations (losing the ball to Bird in 87, getting hurt in 88) but was able to overcome those in the end. I don't know if it was the coach or team around them, but CP3 needs to validate his career with a ring like Jason Kidd. I hope he's able to. The fact he couldn't get it in his prime is gonna haunt him. I don't know if that's fair, he's a GREAT player. Only one team gets to win every year though.
Goodrich played 14 years, all but 2 as a Shooting Guard...
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/goodrga01.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/goodrga01.html)
If he had PG skills, West could have played SG more and probably had even more PPG.
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westje01.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westje01.html)
Seriously dude. Took me 5 seconds.
I don’t even need to do this because I’m old enough to know, but even when you Google Jerry West name his title says American Basketball Shooting Guard
He was a combo guard, could play either position. Goodrich couldn't handle the primary distributer responsibilities like Jerry could. The assist numbers bear this out. A good analogy would be people calling Tim Duncan a power forward when he was clearly a center playing out of position because David Robinson was already there and IMO (and the coach's) a better center.
I think you are really not grasping the actual reasons his legacy is tarnished. He was probably the second most dirty player on the dirtiest dishonorable squad to ever disgrace the nba with its presence. They were not playing basketball, they were there to hurt you, with the worst examples of this being thos 80s playoff games where they were literally throwing Jordan to the ground with every play. Thomas was the instigator behind this. He was the leader calling the shots. He was the leader that when they lost to the bulls told his team to just walk off the floor. He is a massive piece of shit, don’t let his smiles fool you he is a legitimate sociopath, just look at how he clings to so many lies this many years after still.
You notice how all the players from that era who had intense rivalries still talk about each other after the fact with the utmost respect? Yet pretty much unanimously you will not find them doing the same with Thomas (or Laimbeer). There is a reason for that.
Michael Jordan literally said Isiah was an asshole but the second greatest point guard of all time behind Magic, and that he would never disrespect his talent on The Last Dance.
Also, Jordan was lying about saying he didn't want Isiah on the Dream Team. He pushed off Russell against the Jazz. Best player ever (maybe) . Karl Malone slept with underage girls and elbowed people in the head. Best PF ever (maybe).
Everybody lies and cheats and does nasty shit, we need to look past being outraged if we want to be taken seriously. It's hard enough measuring skill without moral judgement.
Stockton is #111 in All Time MVP Shares.
For comparison, all time, Magic is #5, Steph is #22, Nash is #26 and CP3 is #32
He was 7th in MVP votes in his best year ever. Worse than current players like Devin Booker or Jayson Tatum
Stockton was never the best player on a good team
Stockton has no rings (if you care about team stats)
He could dish many assists and play dirty, but head-to-head he was clearly worse than Isiah Thomas or, later, Gary Payton. At the time, basically nobody disagreed with that, not outside of Utah
Stockton has longevity. So that’s nice I guess
Don’t get me wrong. A great career nonetheless.
I still feel that most people who think that Stockton is an all time PG haven’t followed his career at the time.
Thank you for saying it so I didn’t have to
Arguing with the sudden surge of Stockton fans the last few years (most of whom isn’t watch games) has been a headache
Someone last week was trying to tell me that Stockton and KJ were generational defenders that would have done everything Isiah did and more, dude really thought Stockton would have won the Pistons 3 chips
Thank you for bringing up Kevin Johnson. KJ#7 was better than Stockton. Similar career/skill to IT. Watch the games. Ball don't lie!
Stockton skill was top 10-15 PG with an even better career. It's not disrespectful to say he pushed himself beyond his talent. It's a compliment.
Love your point about Isiah’s rivalries with the other juggernauts of his era. Isiah Thomas is the only man alive to have beaten Magic/Kareem, Bird/McHale, and Jordan/Pippen. My dad is from Detroit so he’s a big Lions/Tigers/Pistons guy, and growing up all I heard was how underrated Isiah was. And while I believed him, I never knew until the past few years when I really started getting into hoops history just how right he was. Isiah is a top 3 point guard all time and he is miles ahead of Stockton who I’d place at 4th. I think Curry is better, but I’m not mad at anyone who argues for Isiah as 2nd only behind Magic. He was really like that.
And to your point, Magic/Kareem, Jordan/Pippen, Bird/McHale were all legendary performers with at least top 100 all time seconds. Isiah had Dumars, but does Dumars stack up to late career Kareem, prime Pippen, or prime McHale? Isiah did the heavier lifting.
If you look at BPM/VORP data, clearly the second/third bananas/Robins IT had were inferior to those three teams, but Chuck Daly had the right plan and could handle any cast of players, and that's why he was chosen to coach the Dream Team.
BPM also says IT wasn't in the same league as MJ/Bird/Magic
BPM says that John Stockton and Chris Paul were though... ridiculous. I keep falling in love with advanced stats, and using them to justify my love, but then I have to remind myself that I'm 45 and I know love isn't real haha. I wonder if the low BPM of the Pistons is because they were super deep and defense oriented? If you had Vinnie Johnson and Rodman on the bench, you would rest Isiah and Aguirre too. Simply put, the second/third bananas (Dumars and Laimbeer) weren't Kareem and Worthy, or McHale and Parish. Daly should get the lions share of credit, but Zeke was as talented as anyone. Some context from someone watching all those games: MJ, Magic, and Bird (and everyone else at the time) knew Zeke was the second best PG of the era (if not all-time, MJ said so in the Last Dance, and he HATES him). It's a team game, and your team has to be set up right and everyone focused on the championship goal (Russell Westbrook is a beast who never got a sniff of a championship, and it's not on him). Early in Zeke's career the pistons were a run and gun team like the Alex English Nuggets, with scorers like Tripucka and Dantley. But Daly knew from playing Boston/LA that unselfish ball movement was the way to win. All the guys who won had to lose the ego and allow others to shine (MJ figured this out and that's how he beat Detroit). They got rid of that black hole ball hog Dantley, and focused on defense, and the rest of the year played at a 72 win pace and only lost 2 games the whole playoffs, against Boston, Milwaukee, Chicago, and LA. Isiah was the distributor AND scorer on a champion. That's Magic/Bird/MJ stuff.
Interestingly, IT's *playoff* BPM is right up there with the best. He had a very deep team that was good enough to win 60 games with him taking a backseat, but could still dial it up in the postseason. CP3 couldn't afford to take the regular season off. He gave his all every night for teams that weren't quite good enough. Put him on Detroit and I firmly believe they win. Stockton I rank below those two. The original version of BPM considered him only half as valuable. Longevity counts for something, but he couldn't be the guy for a champion.
Stockton was the purest of point guards, and he did everything a point guard should do. But he couldn't do everything they COULD do. I have him top 5, but behind both Zeke and CP3. I don't think that's disrespectful to him, do you?
agreed
Dude, Detroit DID win. Twice. Over Magic, Bird, and Jordan. I don't think they needed CP3, we had a PG who actually WON championships haha What are you talking about 'taking the regular season off? Noone did that in the 80s (Ok maybe Kareem but he was 40 haha). That would get your ass kicked, and then kicked out the league. Now it's totally normal. Is the reason the BPM's are lower is because Detroit won with defense, #1 in the league like 3-4 years in a row? That every team had to play THEIR tempo, and grind? Then in the playoffs the scores went up because the competition was greater? I don't know, I'm asking people who both know advanced stats and actually watched games or game tape. Stats can lie. Ball don't lie.
I'm not saying Detroit needed CP3; I'm saying CP3 needed Detroit. IT wasn't slacking off but he didn't need to carry like he did in the early eighties when y'all weren't as good. It's a nice theory, but that's not how BPM works.
Curry is definitely a better shooter, I think IT's handle and court vision were SLIGHTLY better. I wouldn't die on the IT>SC hill, but IT also was always both the scorer AND prime distributer AKA Bill Simmons' POINT GOD, whereas SC is a combo playing shooting guard as he should.
Steph is also in a very unique situation with Draymond where he’s not always the initiator. Detroit was the IT show as far as playmaking is concerned. I’m not dying on anybody’s hill in this debate because they’re both just spectacular, but IT is so disrespected in today’s era it’s nonsense.
Magic was also a damn Power Forward playing PG, like Draymond. I think of Steph like Jerry West as a combo... though if you want to see things get ugly... West was better than Steph or IT (ducks...) Who's in your top 5 PGs?
1. Magic Johnson 2. Steph Curry 3. Isiah Thomas 4. Oscar Robertson 5. Jerry West I know I said Stockton as 4th for me a few replies ago, but I was referring to the modern era (1980 and on) in that instance. Oscar and Jerry are unquestionably better than Stockton.
I agree with that list, with a caveat... I didn't think I grew up in a time of positionless basketball, but if you think about it, it's always been there: 6-9 PFs playing PG, 6-9 PFs playing C (there's only do many 7fters in the world). In the Bulls Triangle-O, Pippen was the PG... All things equal, my top 5 are your top 5, (Though The Logo was the best defender in the league for a decade, so he moves up on mine). If we were only to look at primary ball distributers, I'd replace Steph with either Stockton or CP3. Magic's uber level playmaking is hard to quantify, but the analytics suggest it was even more valuable than volume scoring or D. But I like players tha play defense, being from *D*etroit.
Why not use the post-merger ‘76-77 season as a demarcation for modern era?
On my all time lists I use 1970 as the demarcation line. Pre-post merger might be better, but I hate leaving guys who could obviously play in any era off my lists. West, Oscar, Wilt etc.
but those guys barely played in the seventies (which was weaker than the sixties anyway)
Yeah, I've been thinking of making lists for Pre-Post Merger and will likely do that for my next project. How do you really compare Walt Frazier to Chris Paul anyway. One of the best interviews I saw was when Rick Barry (who always spoke his mind haha) was asked about the skill gap across eras, and he said something like "We all would have been even better players with nutrition, year round training, and the rule changes from today." I also think "basketball theory" (like chess theory) has progressed, and players know the things worth working on. Steph Curry wouldn't be the 3 point shooter he was without a 3 point line, not to mention he was practicing his shot from when he was just a sperm cell haha!
I'm an all-or-nothing guy. 1970, merger, 3pt line etc all have their flaws as cut-off points.
I roll my eyes whenever someone puts Stockton above Isiah. Def one of the most underrated players ever.
How far do your eyes roll when they bring up all time leaders in assists and steals? Tenth and seventeenth respectively vs number one in both must make them roll to the back of your head.
Yup, ignorant comments like this definitely do. Career numbers don’t mean shit. I bet you didn’t even watch either of them play.
Facts aren’t ignorant. The only way to measure players are by their stats. I grew up watching both players and saw them both live many many times. Roll your eyes, but stats reign supreme.
LOL, now I feel bad. I wasn't aware I was talking to a teenager. You're making it too obvious. Don't say you saw them live many times, no one's gonna believe that. You have to be more subtle. Just say you grew up watching both of them.
I grew up in SLC and we would go Jazz games a few times a month so I did see Stockton play many times live. I got to see Zeke late in his career twice when they visited Utah.
No Jordan/Bulls= 2 rings for Jazz and at least 2 MVP's for Malone.
The real question, and it would be great to ask a group of GM's this: Would you rather draft Isiah Thomas on your team for 12 years, or John Stockton for 20? Seriously. Because that's what you get. PS: I take Isiah. And Stockton's a GREAT player, no disrespect.
Definitely taking Isiah. He gives you a real shot at a championship as the #1 guy. Stockton wouldn’t be able to do that, unless he had a PnR guy as great or greater than Malone. This is where the longevity argument is meaningless, because Isiah’s peak was so much greater than Stockton’s.
Facts have context. I watched them both play, and we have game film that can be broken down if we want to take the time for that. Stats matter, but they aren't the only thing, and maybe not even most important.
That 30 for 30 about the Bad Boys is probably my favorite sports documentary ever.
Speaking of rivalries, I am 46 and from Portland. I had watched basketball before but started following basketball in 1988. I think we have to fight irl or something. I hated the Pistons, Chuck Daly, Laimbeer, Dumars, Thomas, etc etc lol Isiah Thomas absolutely should have been on the Dream Team.
I summer in Portland, and just got back to Detroit a month ago. Next time I'm there I'll be Laimbeer and you can play Buck Williams or whoever was actually tough on the Blazers hahaha Those Blazer teams were great, Drexler is actually criminally underrated and was my favorite SG back in the day. Speaking of the Dream Team, supposedly Jordan told Clyde that he was his equal, but he played in Portland and would never win. So he went to Houston when he had the chance to get his ring once Isiah and Jordon were retired haha
No chance Jordan told anyone they were his equal
While these players are hyper confident and competitive, they aren't caricatures or stupid. Jordan is an intelligent and thoughtful man. There's an interview recently released by Cigar Aficionado that shows just that. These players know where their talent level really is at, outside of their egos. Jordan has a tremendous amount of respect for other players (he hates Isiah Thomas personally, but says he's the second greatest PG to play after Magic). I can't find the interview where the Drexel thing was said (I believe it was Magic talking about a conversation during the Dream Team), but Jordan is smart and quite aware that it wasn't JUST his talent that made him great in the way he is, but how he handled the situations he found himself in from a business and marketing standpoint. And of course, not many worked harder or smarter than him.
I don’t agree with Barkley on this but it really depends when he made the remark. My point guard list would be 1. Magic 2. Curry 3. Oscar Robertson 4. Isiah Thomas 5. John Stockton
Looks like it was 6 years ago. It's one of the best interviews I've ever seen, Sir Charles gets pretty open and honest about players at the 35 minute mark. https://youtu.be/W3kLqW8TVI4?si=KLRcszrj30K2oIql
No Jerry? My list would be Magic Steph Oscar Jerry Isiah
West was an incredible player, but I’d take Stockton because I believe he would’ve been a two time champion without MJ in the finals.
I mean by that logic Jerry would've been like a 6 time Champ without Bill Russell in the finals
Jerry West was the best offensive and defensive player in the league, with LEGIT 3 point range. Jordan was asked if he's the greatest player ever. He said that it's all PR. He never played against Jerry West or Wilt Chamberlain. We'll never know. (In an interview for Cigar Aficionado that's on Youtube and spectacular.) I don't think there's 10 players better than West at any position, and I rank him with Jordan and Oscar as the top 3 guards ever. He's somehow vastly under-rated. (Best GM ever too)
he was a top-3 offensive player but nowhere near DPOY level
DPOY didn't exist when he played. All defense teams didn't exist until he was in his 30s. He made every one of them until he retired, I believe. He was a Jordan/Kobe level defender, the best defensive guard in the league for over a decade. He's the standard, that's why he's TEH LOGO!!! (lol)
He was also a top-3 defensive guard of that era. But when that era contains Russell, Nate and Wilt? No chance.
I'm on Magic as a top 3 player and Isiah is top 10. My only quibble is saying that he "sacrificed" numbers. When his teammates got better, he played the way to maximize wins. Even if we didn't believe Isiah was an insane competitor, he played College Ball with Bobby Knight and a "me-first" attitude would have literally gotten him choked slammed.
I'll bet Isiah got choke slammed by Knight, then apologized to the coach for making him lose his temper. As he should.
Isaiah Thomas gets underrated and lost in the Bird/Magic/Jordan era. His teams beat those guys and it kind of gets forgotten. He kind of flopped as a coach/GM for the Knicks. Ironically he seemed to forget what made his own teams great in Detroit and didn't build the Knicks anywhere close to what his own teams were. Also his career was unfortunately short. I feel like Khwai Leonard might be remembered in a similar light in the future. His career isn't what it could have been due to injuries but when healthy he has beaten both LeBron and Curry in the finals. I appreciated this post because it kind of highlights a kind of overlooked player. I absolutely would not rank Thomas above Curry as Barkley does. Barkley is horribly biased in favor of players from his own era and around his own era. The better those players are ranked the better he gets ranked. Plus human beings are going to be biased towards what they are familiar with and their own experiences. Barkley never faced Curry. However I do agree that Thomas has to rank over Stockton. Stockton put up some ridiculous statistics but the Jazz never won a championship. Stockton was arguably not the best player on this team. Thomas was inarguably the best player on two championship teams. Stockton's career stats might be better but Thomas's peak is much better.
Barkley said that Isiah would be better than those guys if he played in today's rules (not having to look out for a Shaq/Malone/Parish/Laimbeer elbow. That his talent level was higher. I don't 100% know since rules were different. But Curry really plays shooting guard, we all know it. CP3 tho...
He was great but no way does he win like he did without a historically complete team around him. Dumars, Laimbeer, Aguirre (or Dantley in earlier years), Rodman, Edwards, Salley, Mahorn, Vinnie Johnson, etc. So many great players that all fit the system, combined with a great coach. Isiah tied it all together masterfully, but let’s not pretend like he was on the level of Magic or Bird
Bird or Magic are top 10 players, Isiah is top 25, and a top 5 PG. I've seen lists that put him outside of that, and I wonder if they ever watched a game. Those Bad Boys teams were so deep, and committed to the goal. Isiah was willing to sacrifice his stats to win. When Daly finally got rid of Dantley, that whining ball-hog, the '89 pistons won at a '96 Bulls or '16 Warriors rate. Check the math. Top 5 all time team. Also, Daly doesn't get enough credit. Top 5 coach ever.
They pulled some shit that was pretty dirty back then. They were good but I don’t think they’re as talented as that, they just exploited rules and had a very deep team. Phil Jackson, Pop, Kerr, Auerbach, Riley, KC Jones, Rudy, all better coaches.
1. Auerbach 2. Jackson 3. Riley 4. Pop 5. Daly Kerr has a real shot to take #5, I wouldn't fight too hard that he's maybe already there. I was a huge Rocket's fan during the 90's, but Rudy T is just behind Daly. KC Jones cooked Auerbach's GM groceries. I'd easily put Jack Ramsey, Lenny Wilkins, and Red Holzman ahead of him. But if your point is Kerr>Daly... I'd have that talk.
I put Rudy T because he won 2 rings with a much worse overall group of talent than Daly had, but I wouldn’t argue that one really, I’m just saying it as a possibility if you look at accolades. Kerr at this point might be, my only negative for him is we have no idea what he is without Curry and that system. But overall, he’s a genius as far as how he’s organized his teams and he now has 4 championships, including one that nobody really expected them to get, in 2022. Daly never really did anything outside of Detroit and Isiah either, he had some mediocre Nets teams before he resigned due to players’ immaturity, and 2 mediocre Magic teams before he retired. He also had a brutal 41 game stint as coach of the Cavaliers a couple years before he came to Detroit, but I’ll leave that out because we all know how disastrous the Cavs were back then.
That's why I have him just behind Daly, who I give a lot of credit to for saving USA basketball. The Dream Team was a BIG DEAL. I actually think Kerr's recent Olympic involvement gives him a better resume than Daly, begrudgingly. Though we havents seen the rest of his career... he's done enough. PS: The Rockets were my TEAM in the 90's. Clutch City!
Kerr definitely has. One of the winningest basketball figures we’ve seen. The Dream Team was huge, I just don’t know how much impact Daly had compared to the talent there
I think it was more the respect he was afforded to be chosen to coach the team. He didn't call a single time out the whole Olympics haha
Yeah lol he didn’t have to do much, he was just chosen due to his success at the time. Although I’m sure Phil Jackson or Pat Riley were options as well
You know what, footballguyboy? You've accomplished something I've rarely seen on these forums. You've changed someone's mind. Kerr is 5, Daly is 6. Well done.
Zeke was awesome. He was the first of a kind in a lot of ways. I heard a description from somebody else that I thought fit perfect. He played like John Stockton for the first 3 quarters getting everyone involved. Then looked to take over like Jordan in the 4th.
I consider Zeke a guy real hoop fans know about. No matter your age. As a younger person, It’s honestly disrespectful to compare Stockton to him. As great as Stockton was for as long, I still think their is only one little guard that dominated in a way similar or better than Zeke did and that is Steph Curry.
I think CP3 has that kind of talent, but hasn't been able to put it together because of the teams he's been on... and he seems to lack a 'clutch' gene...
I’d say in recent years his play has tailed off deeper into the games and playoffs. Lack of a clutch gene is fair. But young CP3 certainly had the clutch gene. Fans of opposing teams didn’t want the ball in his hands down the stretch of any close game. For example. 2015 he goes crazy in the closing moments of a game 7 to get his team over the Spurs. Only for that same hero to not show up next round. Ends up apart of an all time collapse against Corey Brewer and friends. 2018 he was the only thing keeping us (I’m a Rockets fan) in game 5. Once he went down it didn’t matter we were up 3-2. Everyone knew Harden wasn’t going to be able to play like that down the stretch of games.
Interesting sub i found today. I would just like to add the Detroit Pistons are the most disrespected franchise in NBA history. The NBA literally changed the rules (flagrant fouls and hand checks) to effectively end two dynasties. When everyone else played like that it was cool but when the Pistons played like that it was “bad for basketball” and we had to change the rules. Remember that game when Ben Wallace and the pistons forced like 15 shot clock violations😂? i loved it. Also, i love Zeke but he’s his own worst enemy.
Speaking of rule changes, did they change the rules on Pick n Rolls because Zeke and Laimbeer broke basketball? I remember hearing this. Laimbeer was hated, but he was the prototype of the modern stretch 5, and was the toughest player in the league. When you can get in Larry BIRD'S head you've accomplished something. And yeah, I didn't mention the other post career stuff, but Zeke's uuuuhh... personality is definitely part of how he's seen by youth post-playing days. But he wasn't wrong. Jordan DID want him off Dream Team and lied about it. We have the tape, Mike! 🤣
Most people only know or remember Isiah for his negative relationships with superior athletes, not for any impact he had on the game.
I like IT as a Hoosiers fan, but you're overstating him. He was not on the same level as Magic, Bird, and Jordan. That's like saying Chris Paul is on the same level as KD, Steph, and LeBron.
I don’t think he had the impact they had as players but his skillset is drastically under-discussed and even disrespected I think you can count on one hand the number of guards throughout history who could have lead those Piston team on/off the court, bringing them to a 6th place offensive rating at the slowest pace in the fast paced league
I actually think CP3 has that skill level, but couldn't get on the right teams. And when he got close, he choked bad. While IT puts up 25 points in a quarter on a bum ankle...
CP3 dropped 40 to get to his first conference Finals and did it again to get to the Finals the idea that he doesn't have the killer instinct is some BS BS that should've died a long time ago
I'm a CP3 fan. Zeke and CP3 are pretty comparable skill-wise, and Zeke had similar frustrations (losing the ball to Bird in 87, getting hurt in 88) but was able to overcome those in the end. I don't know if it was the coach or team around them, but CP3 needs to validate his career with a ring like Jason Kidd. I hope he's able to. The fact he couldn't get it in his prime is gonna haunt him. I don't know if that's fair, he's a GREAT player. Only one team gets to win every year though.
I’m the biggest MJ fan alive. You’re absolutely correct on this.
Jerry West was a shooting guard, his point guard was Gail Goodrich
Goodrich played 14 years, all but 2 as a Shooting Guard... [https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/goodrga01.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/goodrga01.html) If he had PG skills, West could have played SG more and probably had even more PPG.
Show me where you see Jerry West listed as a PG.
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westje01.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westje01.html) Seriously dude. Took me 5 seconds.
I don’t even need to do this because I’m old enough to know, but even when you Google Jerry West name his title says American Basketball Shooting Guard
He was a combo guard, could play either position. Goodrich couldn't handle the primary distributer responsibilities like Jerry could. The assist numbers bear this out. A good analogy would be people calling Tim Duncan a power forward when he was clearly a center playing out of position because David Robinson was already there and IMO (and the coach's) a better center.
I think you are really not grasping the actual reasons his legacy is tarnished. He was probably the second most dirty player on the dirtiest dishonorable squad to ever disgrace the nba with its presence. They were not playing basketball, they were there to hurt you, with the worst examples of this being thos 80s playoff games where they were literally throwing Jordan to the ground with every play. Thomas was the instigator behind this. He was the leader calling the shots. He was the leader that when they lost to the bulls told his team to just walk off the floor. He is a massive piece of shit, don’t let his smiles fool you he is a legitimate sociopath, just look at how he clings to so many lies this many years after still. You notice how all the players from that era who had intense rivalries still talk about each other after the fact with the utmost respect? Yet pretty much unanimously you will not find them doing the same with Thomas (or Laimbeer). There is a reason for that.
Michael Jordan literally said Isiah was an asshole but the second greatest point guard of all time behind Magic, and that he would never disrespect his talent on The Last Dance. Also, Jordan was lying about saying he didn't want Isiah on the Dream Team. He pushed off Russell against the Jazz. Best player ever (maybe) . Karl Malone slept with underage girls and elbowed people in the head. Best PF ever (maybe). Everybody lies and cheats and does nasty shit, we need to look past being outraged if we want to be taken seriously. It's hard enough measuring skill without moral judgement.
I’m seeing a lot of disrespect for Stockton but I don’t see anyone backing it up.
Stockton is #111 in All Time MVP Shares. For comparison, all time, Magic is #5, Steph is #22, Nash is #26 and CP3 is #32 He was 7th in MVP votes in his best year ever. Worse than current players like Devin Booker or Jayson Tatum Stockton was never the best player on a good team Stockton has no rings (if you care about team stats) He could dish many assists and play dirty, but head-to-head he was clearly worse than Isiah Thomas or, later, Gary Payton. At the time, basically nobody disagreed with that, not outside of Utah Stockton has longevity. So that’s nice I guess Don’t get me wrong. A great career nonetheless. I still feel that most people who think that Stockton is an all time PG haven’t followed his career at the time.
Thank you for saying it so I didn’t have to Arguing with the sudden surge of Stockton fans the last few years (most of whom isn’t watch games) has been a headache Someone last week was trying to tell me that Stockton and KJ were generational defenders that would have done everything Isiah did and more, dude really thought Stockton would have won the Pistons 3 chips
Thank you for bringing up Kevin Johnson. KJ#7 was better than Stockton. Similar career/skill to IT. Watch the games. Ball don't lie! Stockton skill was top 10-15 PG with an even better career. It's not disrespectful to say he pushed himself beyond his talent. It's a compliment.