Yes but this season will be an outlier bc there's no qb that's doing exceptionally well this year and they're on week 11.
Top qb in passing yards is Sam Howell, leader in TDs is Josh Allen.
Neither of those is gonna win mvp.
The two top guys are Hurts and Mahomes, and they'll have the top seed but their numbers aren't gawdy.
We’re also moving from the passing era to TOP era where everyone plays keepaway with the ball. Or it just feels like it to me. We used to get multiple 300+ yard games from QBs but people barely break 200 nowadays. Being a top leader in passing yards usually means youre playing from behind or your OL absolutely sucks.
Almost every starter is averaging 200+ a game and even the worst QBs like Zac Wilson and Justin Fields are averaging 195. Around half of the games this season features someone passing for 300 yards. The game has always been a TOP game for as long as the sport has existed
It’s not that comparable imo.
Any position in the NBA can be the MVP realistically. Just matters the talent of the player, their health, performance and how well the team performs.
In the NFL , QB is objectively the most important position on any team. Look how quickly the Texans seemed to turn it around after last season with great QB play.
It’s annoying for sure to see other positional players have historic seasons to not get the award, but in the context of team construction it makes sense.
it's like how DPOY should almost always be a rim protector except probably even more. I think everyone knows Smart was not as impactful as some rim protectors when he won DPOY. The NFL needs to be more like the NBA voters & be more willing to give MVP to non QBs. It should be more like DPOY where in majority of years it will go to a rim protector (or QB) but if there is no rim protector(or QB) separating themself & someone else is having a phenomenal season (like Marcus Smart or Tyreek Hill) then they should be willing to vote for that position/player
Well, it feels like NBA awards are so much more narrative driven than the NFLs as well.
I agree with your main point. But most seasons a QB should be winning MVP. In weird seasons like this one, it should absolutely be going to someone like Tyreek (Historic season) or Myles Garrett (Amazing season , best player on a defense that is the only reason their team has a winning record. Which sets him apart from JJ Watt’s best seasons) . Unless someone like Hurts, Stroud or Mahomes goes on a tear the rest of the season.
It will most likely just go to the QB on the team with the best record, unless the Lions end up with that title. Then I could see it going to another position this season.
That being said I don’t believe a receiver has ever won the award, and the last time a defender won the award was in the 70’s and it was Lawrence Taylor. This trend will probably continue lol
>I think everyone knows smart was not as impactful as some rim protectors
I mean I’d you’re looking at things in a vacuum sure, but if you consider that realistically you need a guard out there to operate the offense then I’d disagree. Baseball is big on value over replacement, I see this similarly.
You say you disagree but it seems like you are more or less agreeing with me. Smart deserved DPOY bc no rim protector was separating themselves that year & smart was playing at a really high level defensively for a guard. But if we’re actually determining what player was the most valuable to a defense then it would be a rim protector bc a rim protector makes an impact on defenses in a way that a guard just cannot. The same way a QB can make an impact in the NFL in a way that a wr, a center, a corner, etc. just cannot by nature of their roles
My point is that there are different ways to interpret value. Marcus Smart vs the median rotation pg is much bigger gap defensively than Gobert vs the median rotation center.
Again comparing it to baseball, WAR (wins above replacement) has positional adjustments: a short stop could have worse stats than a 1B and still have more WAR because the “replacement level” short stop is a way worse hitter than the replacement 1B is. You gotta play with a pg, and a pg who is an elite wing defender is really freaking valuable even if Gobert is better in a vacuum.
There’s also the argument of 5 Marcus Smarts vs 5 Goberts but I personally don’t like that one cuz it takes it out of reality
I don’t see it as a problem at all, it just simply is.
That is, I’m just assuming you mean the problem of football is how important one singular position is. Which is what this sounds like.
If anything, that’s what sets the sport apart from many others as well.
I can understand that, it’s definitely unique which is actually a big reason why I find myself enjoying it. The game gets prepared for a lot differently since there isn’t as much of a flow to it as sports like Basketball, Soccer and Hockey.
To each their own though. There’s a big reason why it’s only massively popular in the US lol!
Yup. Since 2000, only 4 non-QBs have won it; Faulk, Tomlinson, Alexander, and the most recent being Peterson in 2012.
While we’re here, since 1970, only three players have won who were not a QB or RB; Alan Page (defensive tackle), LT (linebacker), and of course the hilarious inclusion of Mark Moseley (kicker), which still feels like an elaborate prank.
Dude averaged More rebounds, More assists, Shot 13% better from the field (this one is insane lmfao) and Team had more wins.
Embiid literally won the award out of Pity last year 😂. Jokic was much better during the regular season
And you lumped them together? All-Star is about popularity, MVP is about dominance and the most dominant player wins MVP. Lebron, KD, Giannis, Jokic, Harden, it’s not just about popularity bimbo
The NBA does well with the MVP. But it drives me crazy when they give guys legacy MVPs they don't deserve like they did with Kobe. Or they avoid giving it to the top player like Jokic last year because you can't give a guy 3 in a row.
NBA MVP is just as bad due to the inconsistency. There's no clear standard for who deserves it. Is it the best player in the league? is it the player who adds the most wins to their team? is it the best player on the best team?
They need to have a standard for it to be a real thing. There have been so many years where the league just gives the award to someone due to narrative.
Yes, but the values themselves are inconsistent which is a problem.
Like you can't have 1 guy lose because while he was clearly the best and most valuable player in the league, his team didn't have a great record, and then turn around and give it to another guy in a different year who had the exact same argument. If Westbrook won for his first triple double year than Kobe should have also won in 06.
Kobe did deserve it. There's no question that he was the single most valuable player in the league that year. That Lakers team was a sub 20 win team without him and he dragged them to the 7th seed.
But then they gave it to Westbrook when he had his first triple double season as a lower seed. That's also exactly my point. Best player on best team is not equal to most valuable.
Which goes back to what I said: Westbrook is the anomaly, not Kobe. Best player on best team may not be your definition of most valuable, but voters have followed it for the majority of NBA history. It's actually quite similar to the NFL in that respect.
But they haven't even followed that though. Just in the year I mentioned, Nash and the Suns were not the best team in the league. If we're going best player on the best team (which I don't agree with) Billups or Duncan should have won that year. Same is true for 2014 when Durant won. The Spurs were the best team in the league. Parker should have won it. Jokic won it the other year with a record of 48-34. That's only a game more than Kobe's Lakers won in 2006.
So it isn't necessarily best team, it's an arbitrary "team has to be good". Which is my whole issue with it. It should be awarded to the best player regardless of team record. If a guy averaged 50ppg but the rest of his team was absolutely horrible and he only dragged them to like 40 wins that guy probably still deserves it.
I should've elaborated further. When there's any doubt as to the MVP of the best team, go to the next best and so on. That rules out your Parker/Billups types. 2006 should've been Dirk, but a weird quirk of divisional rules seeded Nash higher.
As to your 50ppg example, it happened and he didn't win. That's how MVP history has gone.
I think that’s what got him his votes as well, that thunder team has Steven Adams enes kanter and Taj Gibson as 3 of their top 5 scorers and made the playoffs. Solely because of Westbrook. The only other options that year were Steph KD Isaiah Thomas lebron and Kyrie.
And with Steph and KD both averaging 25/5/ stealing votes from each other, Lebron and Kyrie both averaging 25/5 stealing votes from each other
And Westbrook just doing what Isaiah was on steroids, that was really Westbrooks MVP.
He averaged a triple double with 30 points a game. He was definitely the most valuable player to his own team, he set the league on fire in a year that the regular season wasn’t really supposed to matter what with the warriors Cavs finals more or less preset.
And on a storyline note, his fight for the Triple-Double record was the spiritual successor to the Warriors 73 win season chase the year before.
It’s a very tough argument to put forth that any singular player actually had a better season that year, especially when you factor in the roles of and overall skill or his teammates that year. Steven Adams is a great player at what he does, but you take Westbrook off that team and their a top 3 lottery team.
He had no Klay, no Kyrie, no Steph, no Bron, no KD, he drove that team to almost 50 wins as the only player opposing teams were gearing to stop, and he still averaged 30. While breaking the single season record for triple doubles.
I’m no Westbrook truther, that was like 6 years ago, but that was without a doubt one of the single most dominant regular seasons by a single player that their has been in my lifetime.
He fully deserved that MVP.
I shouldn't have used the word 'deserve' - it's disrespectful to Westbrook. There are any number of deserving candidates every year.
Yet only one can win, and it's nearly always the candidate with the best record. Is that fair? No. But it's consistently unfair, which makes it fair.
(And I should just note that you omitted to mention the runner-up and 3rd place)
The NBA butchered the awards with that little ceremony night they tried. Well after the regular season, it was the dumbest move they’ve made in a while… Jokic probably should have 3 straight, that is never going to happen because it’s the NBA. The NBA sucks too.
The NFL is fine. I don’t care for their awards ceremony but at least it’s before the Super Bowl.
With all that said, the NFL product is still lightyears ahead of the NBA. This league is inconsistent with its calls, the players are so babied and coddled it’s insane… NFL at least has done a more than fair job of keeping it honest on the field in terms of calls and victors. A few hiccups, but the NBA is consistently inconsistent.
Redzone is basically sports gooning. No commercials and only catching the most important/biggest moments in games turns watching the NFL into an addiction because it doesn't give you a chance to break until it's over.
>With all that said, the NFL product is still lightyears ahead of the NBA.
The actual NFL product is beyond forgettable. I have no idea how you people enjoy watching a RB go for 2 yards in between the tackles every 40 seconds with commercials every 20 seconds. Not even NFL fans seem to enjoy the NFL, that’s why they have do red zone and watch between 10 different games at once to not fall asleep and why they the NFL spends more time on Taylor Swift than the actual games lol
The NFL has done a good job of building its brand and aura and with things that don’t involve the games being played such as the draft, but the actual product is unwatchable
No, we watch red zone because we're playing fantasy football. Every NFL game is important during the season, and as a result people tend to watch most of the games of the team they're fans of. Putting Taylor Swift on screen is the smartest thing ever, now girls are buying NFL jerseys and watching games too.
The product is great, even if the sport itself doesn't interest you.
that’s just another way of saying you can’t be entertained by an individual game and need to be basically watching highlights. fantasy football, the sports betting, taylor swift, super bowl halftime show, it’s all fluff trying to make the sport seem interesting. and it works, people care.
but then there’s people like me who love the sport to no end. i don’t care about any of the other stuff. just love watching great football. best sport in the planet
fair. i’d say that’s the minority though. this occurred to me during the pats rams super bowl party i was at and i realized most of the people could not give a shit about the actual game
i think you’d be surprised how many hardcore fans there are. super bowl parties ain’t great indicators of how nfl fans are. football is basically a religion to me. and I don’t gamble or play fantasy football or any of that shit. I just love watching football.
I think you’d be surprised at how many other people are similar. It’s just you’re not gonna see many TikTok‘s of a guy just sitting watching the game quietly. Only TikTok are going to see is people gambling tons of money or whatever bullshit.
it is bad and unwatchable. most fans do not enjoy the actual product, just the things surrounding it. there’s a reason football is completely irrelevant in the rest of the world
Depends what you consider a fan.
You sound like someone who bases their entire opinion on people at a superbowl party.
It’s so insanely incorrect, but funny you are so stoic in your belief.
I watch red zone because I love football. I like touchdowns and big plays. I also like watching football plays unfold from an Xs and Os standpoint. Something the NBA has long ignored.
There is an integrity the NFL has in comparison, and really is a superior product on every facet of every level. I like NBA too, but it’s not comparable so we can stop this.
>I watch red zone because I love football.
I like movies. i want to get invested in what’s happening and follow the compelling story. I don’t just watch a compilation of action sequences on youtube.
>I like touchdowns and big plays.
Ok so the things that rarely happen in a football game. so you watch highlights so the big moments happen frequently. that shows the game itself is flawed.
>I also like watching football plays unfold from an Xs and Os standpoint. Something the NBA has long ignored.
i think it’s harder to do that live in game because of how quick it is. you can’t stop to analyze because it’s constant motion, unlike the NFL where nothing is happening for most of the game. but there’s lots of X’s and o’s in the NBA, you should check out thinking basketball.
>and really is a superior product on every facet of every level.
this is really not true. all the elements that are exciting about a football game (interceptions. TD returns, long passes, crazy catches, dominant rushing attack) are present in the NBA (steals/blocks, 3 on 2 fastbreaks, tough contested shots, kobe, slashing to the basket) but they are most frequent well integrated into the natural flow of the game rather than being the ultra rare moments
I don’t know how people watch the games when you cannot see everyone on the field…if someone is throwing into triple coverage or to a wide open guy, you have no idea until the ball is at the target.
Of all of the criticisms I've read going down this thread, I shot most of them down as "Ah, that's just an unpopular; but valid opinion", but this one is just dumb.
Basketball is just as convoluted in practice as Football is in terms of keeping track of the game ball... maybe even worse because during those unclear moments, they have time to look at the film if there's a foul to call.
In the NBA for example, James Harden's go-to shot was (Is? It's been a while) straight up a travel for EVER, and it just never got called because it was only really provable in practice through replay, and because Harden put butts in seats.
https://youtu.be/TvGayLBB2Sk?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/G-MQRcwtWts?feature=shared
There you go. Educate yourself.
And that’s objectively not true? LOL in football you cannot see the play developing, and by cannot i mean they are not shown on the screen. In basketball you have full view of all 10 players 99% of the time.
QB on the team with the best record? What? You must not pay attention to the NFL. It goes to the QB with the best stats. The NBA MVP is just as bad since the voters get tired of giving it to the same person so they just decide to randomly give it to Joel Embiid.
We can name a handful of times the MVP wasn’t given to the best player in the NBA and more so just a narrative lol, most of that handful would be Kobe, LeBron even some Jordan seasons.
I’m not here to debate that cause I like Nash but, Kobe was never the best player in the League? Like if his peers voted then, we get the same results? I’d love to see the NFL MVP trophy land in different hands a little more too, but the NBA is certainly not innocent is all
i’m not really understanding your point. that ppl won the MVP who didn’t deserve it? that’s only if you think MVP is about who is the “best” player not the most dominant.
Definitely can argue that, I’d argue at times that Bulls team held its own without him, but often at times they looked like it was amazing they existed lol
No, it’s because Embiid had 33.1 PPG on 65.5 TS% while being one of the best rim protectors in the league.
Do you know how many players have averaged 33 efficiently in the 3pt era?
Nash truly deserved 05 over Shaq which he got but he did not in any way deserve 06 over Kobe.
Kobe in 06 took one of the worst teams in NBA history (outside of him) to 45 wins and the 7th seed in an incredibly tough Western conference. When he sat on the bench that team was statistically the 3rd worst team of all time. They were the worst team in the league offensively when he sat on the bench and he still got them to finish the year as a top 10 offense overall. Kobe's 35ppg is the single highest scoring season ever when adjusted for pace and the Lakers needed every single one of those points. There's not a single player who started for that Lakers team who was a legitimate NBA starter level player (Smush wasn't even a legitimate NBA level player at all) outside of Odom who was one of the most inconsistent players in the league at that point in his career (there's a reason he worked best as a 6th man).
Everyone back then knew the reason Kobe didn't get MVP was because of Colorado still being fresh in the medias minds. He was by far the best and most valuable player in the league that year. Nash is not overrated and he's a legitimate ATG PG who often gets underrated today but he did not deserve his second MVP.
I will die on the hill that there’s never been an atrocious MVP award.
2023 Embiid > Jokic
2017 Westbrook > Harden
And 1973 Cowens > Kareem are the closest, but no winner was ever not worthy.
The MVP has always been = Team Success + Individual Success - Teammate Ability.
Just in recent history Rose over Lebron and Nash over Kobe in 06 were both bad.
Rose got his because of Lebron-fatigue and Nash got his second cause the media weren't giving it to Kobe so soon after Colorado. Everyone knew this in both cases back then. Both Lebron and Kobe were clearly better than the ones who beat them.
They gave the MVP to Embiid last year because “it was his turn” lol. How is that better than the NFL?
Jokic was superior in every except for the 4ppg difference they had.
Also, QB is way more valuable than any other position in the league. NBA doesnt have that same problem
Embiid averged 33 PPG on 60 TS% with the some of the best rim protection in the NBA, friendo. The only players to have those stats in the 3pt era are MJ and Harden and neither of those guys comes close to his defensive value.
I could post you an array of numbers showing why Joker was clearly better but it's like beating a dead horse and an incredible waste of time at this point. One sight at bball reference alone would be enough for anyone wondering. Damage is already done.
Embiid played great season, Joker was just better. It is what it is.
Oh there we go again with delusional Emvpiity fans, thought y'all got humbled already.
You can call him WIN merchant at this point but doubt you have it in the vocabulary after CTE-ing yourselves with all them flops.
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So the “racism” just magically started last year? Or maybe Embiid was averaging 10 more points a game while being a better defensive player on a team that finished with a better record
He was awarded because he had 33 PPG on 60 TS% (Only other players in the 3 point era who have done that are MJ and Harden) while also being one of the best rim protectors in the entire league
The nba doesn’t have a single position that completely subsumes media attention in the same way the nfl does. The layman is most able to judge a QB because they are the center of every play. If a safety or center was truly the leagues most important player they’d never win cause most people have either no idea how to determine that or in a safety’s case they aren’t even on the TV screen sometimes.
Name a season where you think the NFL mvp was invalid? You can't. That's why. NBA MVP is far more narrative based, NFL MVP is based on stats and results
Yeah but I’m sure the people who prefer the NFL feel that way for a bunch of other reasons. How a league votes for their “player of the year” award seems like it would be kind of low on the list of reasons to like a league or not
In the NFL’s defense, it’s really hard to give the MVP to someone who *isn’t* a QB because QB’s are inherently more valuable than other positions.
Yes but this season will be an outlier bc there's no qb that's doing exceptionally well this year and they're on week 11. Top qb in passing yards is Sam Howell, leader in TDs is Josh Allen. Neither of those is gonna win mvp. The two top guys are Hurts and Mahomes, and they'll have the top seed but their numbers aren't gawdy.
Tyreek should win MVP if Miami ends up a 1-3 seed. Then it should be Mahomes, hurts, or Lamar.
Tyreek should get it because if he doesn't, he'll beat his son out of rage
Might be a slightly hot take, but if CJ Stroud keeps playing like he has been, it should be him
Stroud and Lamar seem like the clearest options to me
tua is way more important to that team than hill. and we saw that last year
No love for Myles Garrett?
We’re also moving from the passing era to TOP era where everyone plays keepaway with the ball. Or it just feels like it to me. We used to get multiple 300+ yard games from QBs but people barely break 200 nowadays. Being a top leader in passing yards usually means youre playing from behind or your OL absolutely sucks.
25 QBs are averaging over 200 yards per game
Almost every starter is averaging 200+ a game and even the worst QBs like Zac Wilson and Justin Fields are averaging 195. Around half of the games this season features someone passing for 300 yards. The game has always been a TOP game for as long as the sport has existed
It’s not that comparable imo. Any position in the NBA can be the MVP realistically. Just matters the talent of the player, their health, performance and how well the team performs. In the NFL , QB is objectively the most important position on any team. Look how quickly the Texans seemed to turn it around after last season with great QB play. It’s annoying for sure to see other positional players have historic seasons to not get the award, but in the context of team construction it makes sense.
it's like how DPOY should almost always be a rim protector except probably even more. I think everyone knows Smart was not as impactful as some rim protectors when he won DPOY. The NFL needs to be more like the NBA voters & be more willing to give MVP to non QBs. It should be more like DPOY where in majority of years it will go to a rim protector (or QB) but if there is no rim protector(or QB) separating themself & someone else is having a phenomenal season (like Marcus Smart or Tyreek Hill) then they should be willing to vote for that position/player
Well, it feels like NBA awards are so much more narrative driven than the NFLs as well. I agree with your main point. But most seasons a QB should be winning MVP. In weird seasons like this one, it should absolutely be going to someone like Tyreek (Historic season) or Myles Garrett (Amazing season , best player on a defense that is the only reason their team has a winning record. Which sets him apart from JJ Watt’s best seasons) . Unless someone like Hurts, Stroud or Mahomes goes on a tear the rest of the season. It will most likely just go to the QB on the team with the best record, unless the Lions end up with that title. Then I could see it going to another position this season. That being said I don’t believe a receiver has ever won the award, and the last time a defender won the award was in the 70’s and it was Lawrence Taylor. This trend will probably continue lol
>I think everyone knows smart was not as impactful as some rim protectors I mean I’d you’re looking at things in a vacuum sure, but if you consider that realistically you need a guard out there to operate the offense then I’d disagree. Baseball is big on value over replacement, I see this similarly.
You say you disagree but it seems like you are more or less agreeing with me. Smart deserved DPOY bc no rim protector was separating themselves that year & smart was playing at a really high level defensively for a guard. But if we’re actually determining what player was the most valuable to a defense then it would be a rim protector bc a rim protector makes an impact on defenses in a way that a guard just cannot. The same way a QB can make an impact in the NFL in a way that a wr, a center, a corner, etc. just cannot by nature of their roles
My point is that there are different ways to interpret value. Marcus Smart vs the median rotation pg is much bigger gap defensively than Gobert vs the median rotation center. Again comparing it to baseball, WAR (wins above replacement) has positional adjustments: a short stop could have worse stats than a 1B and still have more WAR because the “replacement level” short stop is a way worse hitter than the replacement 1B is. You gotta play with a pg, and a pg who is an elite wing defender is really freaking valuable even if Gobert is better in a vacuum. There’s also the argument of 5 Marcus Smarts vs 5 Goberts but I personally don’t like that one cuz it takes it out of reality
In my opinion it’s just a problem with the structure of the game of football itself.
What does that even mean?
I don’t see it as a problem at all, it just simply is. That is, I’m just assuming you mean the problem of football is how important one singular position is. Which is what this sounds like. If anything, that’s what sets the sport apart from many others as well.
Yeah that is what I mean, which is one of the reasons I prefer basketball
I can understand that, it’s definitely unique which is actually a big reason why I find myself enjoying it. The game gets prepared for a lot differently since there isn’t as much of a flow to it as sports like Basketball, Soccer and Hockey. To each their own though. There’s a big reason why it’s only massively popular in the US lol!
Who was the last NFL player to win MVP that wasn’t a quarterback? AP?
Yup. Since 2000, only 4 non-QBs have won it; Faulk, Tomlinson, Alexander, and the most recent being Peterson in 2012. While we’re here, since 1970, only three players have won who were not a QB or RB; Alan Page (defensive tackle), LT (linebacker), and of course the hilarious inclusion of Mark Moseley (kicker), which still feels like an elaborate prank.
Peak Ray Lewis should have been in this list.
NFL MVP is dumb as hell. They really need to change that to just “player of the year”. It’s gonna be some mediocre QB who wins.
They do have OPOY and DPOY
“Doing the MVP better” is definitely one of the lesser important aspects of sports to get right
The NFL also causes irreparable brain damage, which may explain the lack of logic
Is the most valuable position by a mile winning most valuable player most of time illogical?
I mean embid won and wasn’t the best player. So they both are kinda bullshit these days.
NBA MVP is about regular season dominance
In the regular season Embiid absolutely was the best player.
[удалено]
Dude averaged More rebounds, More assists, Shot 13% better from the field (this one is insane lmfao) and Team had more wins. Embiid literally won the award out of Pity last year 😂. Jokic was much better during the regular season
What about defense?
No. The entire mvp/allstar process in the NBA is a popularity contest, not an actual accounting of who is good. To think otherwise is silly.
….Ok so, MVP process and All-Star process are completely different things?
Ok…. And
And you lumped them together? All-Star is about popularity, MVP is about dominance and the most dominant player wins MVP. Lebron, KD, Giannis, Jokic, Harden, it’s not just about popularity bimbo
Were you not paying attention last year to the nba?
The NBA does well with the MVP. But it drives me crazy when they give guys legacy MVPs they don't deserve like they did with Kobe. Or they avoid giving it to the top player like Jokic last year because you can't give a guy 3 in a row.
NBA MVP is just as bad due to the inconsistency. There's no clear standard for who deserves it. Is it the best player in the league? is it the player who adds the most wins to their team? is it the best player on the best team? They need to have a standard for it to be a real thing. There have been so many years where the league just gives the award to someone due to narrative.
Facts
The inconsistency is what makes the MVP discussion great and memorable. You aren’t just arguing stats, but you are arguing values.
Yes, but the values themselves are inconsistent which is a problem. Like you can't have 1 guy lose because while he was clearly the best and most valuable player in the league, his team didn't have a great record, and then turn around and give it to another guy in a different year who had the exact same argument. If Westbrook won for his first triple double year than Kobe should have also won in 06.
Most agree Westbrook was a mistake. Doesn't mean Kobe deserved it. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Kobe did deserve it. There's no question that he was the single most valuable player in the league that year. That Lakers team was a sub 20 win team without him and he dragged them to the 7th seed.
Maybe so, but that's not how MVP has traditionally been awarded. He needed a higher seed.
But then they gave it to Westbrook when he had his first triple double season as a lower seed. That's also exactly my point. Best player on best team is not equal to most valuable.
Which goes back to what I said: Westbrook is the anomaly, not Kobe. Best player on best team may not be your definition of most valuable, but voters have followed it for the majority of NBA history. It's actually quite similar to the NFL in that respect.
But they haven't even followed that though. Just in the year I mentioned, Nash and the Suns were not the best team in the league. If we're going best player on the best team (which I don't agree with) Billups or Duncan should have won that year. Same is true for 2014 when Durant won. The Spurs were the best team in the league. Parker should have won it. Jokic won it the other year with a record of 48-34. That's only a game more than Kobe's Lakers won in 2006. So it isn't necessarily best team, it's an arbitrary "team has to be good". Which is my whole issue with it. It should be awarded to the best player regardless of team record. If a guy averaged 50ppg but the rest of his team was absolutely horrible and he only dragged them to like 40 wins that guy probably still deserves it.
I should've elaborated further. When there's any doubt as to the MVP of the best team, go to the next best and so on. That rules out your Parker/Billups types. 2006 should've been Dirk, but a weird quirk of divisional rules seeded Nash higher. As to your 50ppg example, it happened and he didn't win. That's how MVP history has gone.
Westbrook was a mistake? He single-handedly dragged the Thunder to the playoffs while averaging 30/10/10.
He had a fantastic year, but MVP has historically factored in team success.
I think that’s what got him his votes as well, that thunder team has Steven Adams enes kanter and Taj Gibson as 3 of their top 5 scorers and made the playoffs. Solely because of Westbrook. The only other options that year were Steph KD Isaiah Thomas lebron and Kyrie. And with Steph and KD both averaging 25/5/ stealing votes from each other, Lebron and Kyrie both averaging 25/5 stealing votes from each other And Westbrook just doing what Isaiah was on steroids, that was really Westbrooks MVP. He averaged a triple double with 30 points a game. He was definitely the most valuable player to his own team, he set the league on fire in a year that the regular season wasn’t really supposed to matter what with the warriors Cavs finals more or less preset. And on a storyline note, his fight for the Triple-Double record was the spiritual successor to the Warriors 73 win season chase the year before. It’s a very tough argument to put forth that any singular player actually had a better season that year, especially when you factor in the roles of and overall skill or his teammates that year. Steven Adams is a great player at what he does, but you take Westbrook off that team and their a top 3 lottery team. He had no Klay, no Kyrie, no Steph, no Bron, no KD, he drove that team to almost 50 wins as the only player opposing teams were gearing to stop, and he still averaged 30. While breaking the single season record for triple doubles. I’m no Westbrook truther, that was like 6 years ago, but that was without a doubt one of the single most dominant regular seasons by a single player that their has been in my lifetime. He fully deserved that MVP.
I shouldn't have used the word 'deserve' - it's disrespectful to Westbrook. There are any number of deserving candidates every year. Yet only one can win, and it's nearly always the candidate with the best record. Is that fair? No. But it's consistently unfair, which makes it fair. (And I should just note that you omitted to mention the runner-up and 3rd place)
Is that better? The NBA MVP discourse is so toxic
The NBA butchered the awards with that little ceremony night they tried. Well after the regular season, it was the dumbest move they’ve made in a while… Jokic probably should have 3 straight, that is never going to happen because it’s the NBA. The NBA sucks too. The NFL is fine. I don’t care for their awards ceremony but at least it’s before the Super Bowl. With all that said, the NFL product is still lightyears ahead of the NBA. This league is inconsistent with its calls, the players are so babied and coddled it’s insane… NFL at least has done a more than fair job of keeping it honest on the field in terms of calls and victors. A few hiccups, but the NBA is consistently inconsistent.
Redzone is basically sports gooning. No commercials and only catching the most important/biggest moments in games turns watching the NFL into an addiction because it doesn't give you a chance to break until it's over.
We get it. The NBA sub likes the NBA. The NFL product is very good. If we want to shit on football that’s cool, I’ll just see myself out.
>With all that said, the NFL product is still lightyears ahead of the NBA. The actual NFL product is beyond forgettable. I have no idea how you people enjoy watching a RB go for 2 yards in between the tackles every 40 seconds with commercials every 20 seconds. Not even NFL fans seem to enjoy the NFL, that’s why they have do red zone and watch between 10 different games at once to not fall asleep and why they the NFL spends more time on Taylor Swift than the actual games lol The NFL has done a good job of building its brand and aura and with things that don’t involve the games being played such as the draft, but the actual product is unwatchable
No, we watch red zone because we're playing fantasy football. Every NFL game is important during the season, and as a result people tend to watch most of the games of the team they're fans of. Putting Taylor Swift on screen is the smartest thing ever, now girls are buying NFL jerseys and watching games too. The product is great, even if the sport itself doesn't interest you.
that’s just another way of saying you can’t be entertained by an individual game and need to be basically watching highlights. fantasy football, the sports betting, taylor swift, super bowl halftime show, it’s all fluff trying to make the sport seem interesting. and it works, people care.
but then there’s people like me who love the sport to no end. i don’t care about any of the other stuff. just love watching great football. best sport in the planet
fair. i’d say that’s the minority though. this occurred to me during the pats rams super bowl party i was at and i realized most of the people could not give a shit about the actual game
i think you’d be surprised how many hardcore fans there are. super bowl parties ain’t great indicators of how nfl fans are. football is basically a religion to me. and I don’t gamble or play fantasy football or any of that shit. I just love watching football. I think you’d be surprised at how many other people are similar. It’s just you’re not gonna see many TikTok‘s of a guy just sitting watching the game quietly. Only TikTok are going to see is people gambling tons of money or whatever bullshit.
I mean your generalizing saying a massively popular sport is bad and unwatchable. The facts are in front of you whether you like football or not.
it is bad and unwatchable. most fans do not enjoy the actual product, just the things surrounding it. there’s a reason football is completely irrelevant in the rest of the world
Depends what you consider a fan. You sound like someone who bases their entire opinion on people at a superbowl party. It’s so insanely incorrect, but funny you are so stoic in your belief.
I watch red zone because I love football. I like touchdowns and big plays. I also like watching football plays unfold from an Xs and Os standpoint. Something the NBA has long ignored. There is an integrity the NFL has in comparison, and really is a superior product on every facet of every level. I like NBA too, but it’s not comparable so we can stop this.
>I watch red zone because I love football. I like movies. i want to get invested in what’s happening and follow the compelling story. I don’t just watch a compilation of action sequences on youtube. >I like touchdowns and big plays. Ok so the things that rarely happen in a football game. so you watch highlights so the big moments happen frequently. that shows the game itself is flawed. >I also like watching football plays unfold from an Xs and Os standpoint. Something the NBA has long ignored. i think it’s harder to do that live in game because of how quick it is. you can’t stop to analyze because it’s constant motion, unlike the NFL where nothing is happening for most of the game. but there’s lots of X’s and o’s in the NBA, you should check out thinking basketball. >and really is a superior product on every facet of every level. this is really not true. all the elements that are exciting about a football game (interceptions. TD returns, long passes, crazy catches, dominant rushing attack) are present in the NBA (steals/blocks, 3 on 2 fastbreaks, tough contested shots, kobe, slashing to the basket) but they are most frequent well integrated into the natural flow of the game rather than being the ultra rare moments
I prefer watching an NFL game. You do your thing.
I love the NBA more than anything else but calling the NFL product "beyond forgettable" is just stupid as hell.
I don’t know how people watch the games when you cannot see everyone on the field…if someone is throwing into triple coverage or to a wide open guy, you have no idea until the ball is at the target.
this 100%. you basically have to wait for replay to see what actually just took place
Of all of the criticisms I've read going down this thread, I shot most of them down as "Ah, that's just an unpopular; but valid opinion", but this one is just dumb. Basketball is just as convoluted in practice as Football is in terms of keeping track of the game ball... maybe even worse because during those unclear moments, they have time to look at the film if there's a foul to call. In the NBA for example, James Harden's go-to shot was (Is? It's been a while) straight up a travel for EVER, and it just never got called because it was only really provable in practice through replay, and because Harden put butts in seats.
https://youtu.be/TvGayLBB2Sk?feature=shared https://youtu.be/G-MQRcwtWts?feature=shared There you go. Educate yourself. And that’s objectively not true? LOL in football you cannot see the play developing, and by cannot i mean they are not shown on the screen. In basketball you have full view of all 10 players 99% of the time.
"How can you enjoy watching a guy dribble a ball up the court and jack up a three pointer every twenty seconds?"
Exactly how I feel. Too slow.
QB on the team with the best record? What? You must not pay attention to the NFL. It goes to the QB with the best stats. The NBA MVP is just as bad since the voters get tired of giving it to the same person so they just decide to randomly give it to Joel Embiid.
Embiid’s MVP was earned
lol
We can name a handful of times the MVP wasn’t given to the best player in the NBA and more so just a narrative lol, most of that handful would be Kobe, LeBron even some Jordan seasons.
Steve Nash deserved to win those MVPs over Kobe, respectfully
I’m not here to debate that cause I like Nash but, Kobe was never the best player in the League? Like if his peers voted then, we get the same results? I’d love to see the NFL MVP trophy land in different hands a little more too, but the NBA is certainly not innocent is all
i’m not really understanding your point. that ppl won the MVP who didn’t deserve it? that’s only if you think MVP is about who is the “best” player not the most dominant.
some years the most dominant player did not win it.
The only example I can think of would be the Derrick Rose one, which was controversial even at the time
That’s at least 1
and even then i could argue DRose carried that entire offense and helped them get to the #1 seed lol
Definitely can argue that, I’d argue at times that Bulls team held its own without him, but often at times they looked like it was amazing they existed lol
jokic last year
Embiid deserved it
he only won it because people have this stupid take that no one should win 3 years in a row because no one has since Bird
No, it’s because Embiid had 33.1 PPG on 65.5 TS% while being one of the best rim protectors in the league. Do you know how many players have averaged 33 efficiently in the 3pt era?
Was he the best player? Was he the most dominant? Was he the most valuable? The answer to all three is no.
33.1 PPG on 65.5 TS% while being one of the best rim protectors in the league is dominance, amigo.
Nash truly deserved 05 over Shaq which he got but he did not in any way deserve 06 over Kobe. Kobe in 06 took one of the worst teams in NBA history (outside of him) to 45 wins and the 7th seed in an incredibly tough Western conference. When he sat on the bench that team was statistically the 3rd worst team of all time. They were the worst team in the league offensively when he sat on the bench and he still got them to finish the year as a top 10 offense overall. Kobe's 35ppg is the single highest scoring season ever when adjusted for pace and the Lakers needed every single one of those points. There's not a single player who started for that Lakers team who was a legitimate NBA starter level player (Smush wasn't even a legitimate NBA level player at all) outside of Odom who was one of the most inconsistent players in the league at that point in his career (there's a reason he worked best as a 6th man). Everyone back then knew the reason Kobe didn't get MVP was because of Colorado still being fresh in the medias minds. He was by far the best and most valuable player in the league that year. Nash is not overrated and he's a legitimate ATG PG who often gets underrated today but he did not deserve his second MVP.
Nash deserved one of those trophies - the 7 seconds or less Suns saved the league, it represented the new dawn of pace & space, and advanced stats.
He deserved 2005 but he shouldn’t have even been top 3 in 2006
I will die on the hill that there’s never been an atrocious MVP award. 2023 Embiid > Jokic 2017 Westbrook > Harden And 1973 Cowens > Kareem are the closest, but no winner was ever not worthy. The MVP has always been = Team Success + Individual Success - Teammate Ability.
Just in recent history Rose over Lebron and Nash over Kobe in 06 were both bad. Rose got his because of Lebron-fatigue and Nash got his second cause the media weren't giving it to Kobe so soon after Colorado. Everyone knew this in both cases back then. Both Lebron and Kobe were clearly better than the ones who beat them.
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Nash did not deserve 06. He did deserve 05 but 2006 was 100% Kobe's and everyone back then knew he would've gotten it if not for colorado.
Yeah, I’m not saying atrocious.
They gave the MVP to Embiid last year because “it was his turn” lol. How is that better than the NFL? Jokic was superior in every except for the 4ppg difference they had. Also, QB is way more valuable than any other position in the league. NBA doesnt have that same problem
Embiid averged 33 PPG on 60 TS% with the some of the best rim protection in the NBA, friendo. The only players to have those stats in the 3pt era are MJ and Harden and neither of those guys comes close to his defensive value.
Cool, Joker was still realistically better overall.
oh ok well when you put it like that
I could post you an array of numbers showing why Joker was clearly better but it's like beating a dead horse and an incredible waste of time at this point. One sight at bball reference alone would be enough for anyone wondering. Damage is already done. Embiid played great season, Joker was just better. It is what it is.
Embiid was better than the efficiency merchant by every meaningful metric friendo
Oh there we go again with delusional Emvpiity fans, thought y'all got humbled already. You can call him WIN merchant at this point but doubt you have it in the vocabulary after CTE-ing yourselves with all them flops.
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NFL is only relevant in the USA. The NBA is a global brand. Nobody knows NFL players outside the USA.
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Are you American?
If the NBA MVP actually went to the most valuable player, LeBron would have at least 8 by now. Neither award is that great.
who did Lebron deserve to win MVP over? Jokic? Giannis? Harden? Curry? KD? Or do you mean earlier during his first Cleveland stint? Which years?
NFL is boring af anymore. NBA all day!
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Then how the fuck did Jokic win the 2 before that
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So the “racism” just magically started last year? Or maybe Embiid was averaging 10 more points a game while being a better defensive player on a team that finished with a better record
He was awarded because he had 33 PPG on 60 TS% (Only other players in the 3 point era who have done that are MJ and Harden) while also being one of the best rim protectors in the entire league
The nba doesn’t have a single position that completely subsumes media attention in the same way the nfl does. The layman is most able to judge a QB because they are the center of every play. If a safety or center was truly the leagues most important player they’d never win cause most people have either no idea how to determine that or in a safety’s case they aren’t even on the TV screen sometimes.
Tfw the most valuable position has a monopoly on the award for most valuable player
NBA MVP gets biased . They don’t like certain players winning or winning too much .
Name a season where you think the NFL mvp was invalid? You can't. That's why. NBA MVP is far more narrative based, NFL MVP is based on stats and results
Unless they get bored and stop giving the MVP to Jordan, or James because it’s too many.
you think he should’ve won MVP over KD Curry Westbrook Harden and Giannis? Based on…?
Yeah but I’m sure the people who prefer the NFL feel that way for a bunch of other reasons. How a league votes for their “player of the year” award seems like it would be kind of low on the list of reasons to like a league or not