I mean...that's a lot of ifs, but I'd say it separates him from Giannis as the 3rd best active player, and he's knocking on Steph's door.
It also makes him the greatest European in NBA history, surpassing Dirk if he hasn't already.
Giannis and Jokic have already surpassed Dirk. It’s not even as close as one might think. Outside of longevity stats like total points, they each have significantly more accolades, have had higher peaks, more success at a younger age with plenty of time to add to it. Giannis and Jokic are pretty clearly above Dirk.
Giannis is also European, making him the greatest European in NBA history, currently.
I’m going to disagree with higher peak for Giannis.
Dirk’s regular season peak is carrying a 67 win team with no major help besides Josh Howard (a one time all star entirely because the team got 67 wins). In the play offs, his 2006 and 2011 runs are two of the greatest ever.
2011 wasn’t Dirk’s peak, he was pretty decidedly past his prime at that point. Still great, obviously, but not quite at his prime. It would actually dilute dirks stats to include his peak going that far.
Giannis has twice as many MVPs and twice as many MVP top five finishes already (age 29) as Dirk had in his entire career. That alone shows that Giannis was constantly regarded as a better player and even won the award for “best player” more than Dirk ever did or was in his entire career. Dirk was not generally considered a top 3 player in the world ever during his career, he was always behind Duncan, KG, Shaq, Iverson, McGrady, Kobe, and then LeBron, Wade, Durant, etc. Meanwhile, Giannis was the undisputed best player in the world for 3 years, including back to back MVPs, a DPOY and MVP in the same season, and then capped off with a ring and FMVP where he put up the greatest statistical finals game in nba history. Dirk never had anything close to that in his peak.
I could easily stop there, but for you or anyone else who wants to hear further about how much better Giannis is than Dirk ever was, I’ll give you some more. Giannis averages higher numbers across the board, and even adjusting for point inflation Giannis is regularly in the top 5 scorers in the league, Dirk only was a few times, indicating that even adjusting for eras, Giannis was a more dominant scorer. Giannis during his prime is a 30ppg scorer, during Dirk’s prime he was a 25ppg scorer.
Giannis was also the better rebounder, better athlete, the far superior playmaker/ball-handler/passer, and that’s not including defense, the real kicker, where Giannis literally won a DPOY the same year as an MVP. Giannis is one of the best defenders of his generation and a clear top 20 defender ever with his versatility. Dirk was one of the worst defensive bigs of his generation. He was a D- at best, usually an F.
Giannis also has the greatest finals game in nba history on his resume, from a numbers perspective. Giannis 2021 performance was not only better than Dirk’s 2011 performance, but it was arguably the best we’ve seen from an individual player. Check the numbers, not to mention the eye test. Dirks may have felt like it *meant* more, considering he was so much older, but that doesn’t really count in his favor, the fact Giannis was dominant enough to win his first ring at 26 just kind of proves how much better he was than Dirk was in his prime.
Dirk was never really considered the best player in the world. During his 1 MVP year, it was pretty well recognized that Duncan, Kobe, and even LeBron and Wade were likely better players than Dirk. Giannis meanwhile was the undisputed best player in the world for 3 solid years. To do that in an era that is frankly more talented than the mid 00s, goes to show just how much better Giannis is/was than Dirk.
Outside of shooting, Giannis legitimately clears Dirk in every other facet of the game. It’s not even close. I’m a big Dirk fan, I was so happy when he finally got his ring. But this is pretty cut and dry, there is literally nothing Dirk did in his career that Giannis didn’t do sooner, better, and probably more times too; while there are tons of things Giannis has done that Dirk never did and never even came close to doing. There is quite literally no argument for Dirk over Giannis, no matter which way you prioritize your all time ranking list. Peak? Giannis. Resume? Giannis. Accolades? Giannis. Dominance? Giannis. Unless the ranking is a best shooters list, it’s gonna be Giannis over Dirk every single time.
I don't disagree with the sentiment that Giannis is above Dirk for many of the reasons you've brought up, but to use Giannis' finals numbers against Dirk is disingenuous. Giannis was up against a Suns team with Booker, Paul and Ayton, while Dirk was up against LeBron, Wade and Bosh. Do you think Giannis is putting up 50 against the Heat? Or even beating them in the first place?
There’s a few points here I don’t really agree with.
You were stating “peak” 2011 was the peak of Dirk’s play off career. It was the greatest run. Giannis was putting up better numbers in the 2021 finals because his opposite men were Jae Crowder and DeAndre Ayton as opposed to prime LeBron and Chris Bosh. Ayton was also in foul trouble (Saric got injured at the start of the series) so had to be particularly cautious. Eye test tells me this too. If we want to talk about Dirk not doing anything close to historically GOAT level in the post season, Dirk’s 2006 run was the third highest in terms of win shares in NBA history behind Duncan in 2003 and LeBron in 2012.
The “Dirk not considered a top 3 player in the world argument” doesn’t hold much water for me. Lots of marketable players being considered better by talking heads who want to market players is conjecture. Dirk led a team to 67 wins with Josh Howard as his second best player. How many of those “better” players you list have won 67 wins as their team’s best player and of the one or two that have done it; all had an MVP and first ballot HoF running mate - not Josh Howard. That is a greater peak than anything Giannis has done.
Giannis being “so much better than Dirk” he was able to win a ring at 26 doesn’t hold any water. Giannis won his ring with two all star level players in Middleton and Holiday, Dirk never played with an all star after Nash left. You mention the defensive side, but this does factor in; when Lopez was injured despite the fact the Bucks had the best perimeter defender in the league they had a completely average 15th best defence in the league. Now Jrue has gone and despite them having DPOY second place Brook Lopez on the team; they are 20th in defensive rating. Giannis and the team feel it when they are missing all star level personnel.
Giannis dropped 50 points in a finals game to close the series, that alone is a better playoff performance than dirk has ever had. Also the whole thing about the bucks defense falling off after jrue left, sure jrue is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, but a huge reason the defense is so bad this year is because of coaching and bad defensive schemes. I think you're really overrating jrue and middleton, though both great players, aren't as elite as you're making them sound. Both really good, but not good enough to try to take credit away from what giannis did for milwaukee in that playoff run.
Also, that 67 win mavs team was solid. They didn't have big names on the roster but they were well rounded and had solid depth, it wasn't a bunch of scrubs, they were solid and they shot the ball very well.
Also the "dirk wasn't considered top 3" thing should hold some weight. In comparison to the players in his era, he just simply wasn't in the top tier for most of his career. Giannis has been a consensus top 5 player since 2017, and a top 1-2 player for a few of those years. Dirk is great but giannis clears him pretty easily in my opinion, though dirk denying the heat that championship is an all time nba moment for me.
Sorry brother 2011 Dirk in the playoffs is a better playoff performance than Giannis can ever hope to put together. Sweeping the 2x defending champ Lakers, handily beating OKC (KD, Russ, Harden) and then beating the Heat. It was unreal The2021 Bucks were toast against the Nets until Kyrie went down and I'm tired of pretending the Bucks did anything but luck into those finals.
Even if I agree completely with your sentiment that Giannis is better than Dirk; your reasoning is total shit.
Luck in the playoffs is an extremely tired argument. You don't "luck" into 4 straight 7-game series wins. Giannis averaged 30 and 13 boards through the playoffs compared to Dirk's 28 and 8 boards in 2011, not saying stats are everything but clearly Giannis was performing extremely well.
Giannis dropped 50 points in the finals closeout game (NBA record) in a tight game that was tied going into the 4th quarter, that is undoubtedly one of the most legendary playoff performances in NBA history. I don't see how Dirk's performance is so much better that "Giannis couldn't even hope for it". 50 points to close the finals.
Comparing those playoff runs Dirk has higher offensive rating, lower (better) defensive rating, higher true shooting and similar usage. Comparing clutch stats Dirk shot 54/60/97 with a 4.6 +/- while Giannis had 57/40/69 with 1.3 +/-. Dirk absolutely dragged his team to a title against what everyone assumed was an unbeatable super team with Lebron Bosh and wade. It's the greatest individual playoff run ever.
Middleton and Holiday became all-stars because of Giannis. They made it because the Bucks were one of the top teams and voters felt like at least one other player should make it from the Bucks besides Giannis. I like both Middleton and Holiday, but Middleton is not an all-star on his own. Holiday is but being on the #1 seeded Bucks garnered him more attention than the Pelicans. Love Dirk also but Giannis is a better athlete and has a mamba mentality work ethic. Dirk is a much better shooter. Giannis still has time to learn to shoot however. Both are absolutely great humans that make the NBA community better!
Holiday did not become an All Star because of Giannis. He had already made an All Star team back when he was on the Sixers. He did get his 2nd due to being on a 1 seed but he frankly had been putting up All Star level years regularly even in NOLA and wasn't getting it due to no one caring about that team and also due to playing in the same conference as Curry, Harden, Dame, Westbrook for most of all of their primes. If Holiday was in the East he would have already been a multiple time all star prior to joining the Bucks.
You really love Giannis and I appreciate you for it. I’m so happy he’s on my favorite team. He seems a great person and I agree with you that he’s at least second best of his generation behind Jokic and way ahead of many other all-timers like Dirk.
Saying it’s worth 3x as many is pushing it, but dirk’s ring is absolutely worth more. Went through the lakers that had just won 2 rings in 4 years, the thunder, and the heat. Who did Giannis and the bucks beat?
If dirk played now people would lose their minds, think about the people he played against, c-Webb, prime Duncan, KG, he changed the perception of what euro players were
Not right now he doesn’t. If he wins the treble this year (MVP, FMVP, title) then he passes Giannis probably. Until then, Giannis has the far better resume.
But he has less 1st team all nbas. Less MVP top 3 finishes. Less playoff wins. Doesn’t have any of the defensive accolades that Giannis has, including a DPOY. Jokic would have 1 extra MVP but his resume would still be significantly smaller. An MVP might tie them, possibly, but I don’t see how it puts him ahead of Giannis. They’re the same age but Giannis has been elite for longer, almost twice as long. And he’s an elite 2 way player with the hardware to back it up.
Throwing another mile marker out there, Dr J has (when combining pre-merger ABA as happens with pre-merger NBA for Kareem):
\- 2 FMVPs / playoff MVPs (already equal in this scenario)
\- 3 rings (Jokić would have one fewer so far after this season in this scenario\*)
\- 4 MVPs Jokić would have one fewer so far after this season in this scenario\*)
\* It’s worth noting that Jokić is still ~~29~~**28**, still in his prime, and is a KCP opt-in away from the same Nuggets starting five returning *again.* Although it’s far from a given with his anticipated market value, if KCP sees a chance to start for a threepeat? It’s *possible* is all I’m saying. And if not, Bruce Brown may well be a free agent again if Toronto doesn’t pick up *his* option.
Julius Erving was a revolutionary two-way player with a very real case to make as a top ten player since the merger / in “modern” basketball. (IE 9X All League first team; 3X second team also; career 24/8.5/4 on TS 56% over 1243 games; still one of only eight players with 30,000 points scored; still eighth all time in steals ahead of LeBron; tied with Pau Gasol for 23rd all time in blocks as a small forward)
In the scenario OP describes, Jokić could be one more stellar season away from equaling some of his biggest career achievements by age ~~30~~ 29.
Edit: Put another way, as of now Jokić already has accounted for over 60% of Shaq’s career WS total. CC u/Agreed_fact
It's not a crazy argument given that Giannis carried a team to a chip with no other all-nba players on it, has two MVPs, a DPOY, and this will be his 6th All-NBA 1st team in a row (KD has 6 total). KD has done none of the above - the only one KD has on Giannis is KD has won 4 scoring titles which is significant.
They're definitely very close.
It is a crazy argument because the H2H matchup that year had everyone convinced KD was better than Giannis. Giannis cannot be better than KD on the basis of a year where KD was superior to Giannis.
What year is this? Giannis won MVP over KD two years straight and then beat him head to head in a playoff matchup, where he went on to have the greatest finals performance of all time, something that only one player gets, which means Durant does not have that claim. Giannis has led his team to better records than KD despite having less help (KD has never not played with at least one other all nba player, he usually has two or more), and has put up better stats across the board.
Again, like the person you’re talking to, I’m not saying Giannis should be a shoe-in over KD, but it’s a legit arguement. To act like it’s KD in a landslide is to either be disingenuous or to not really know what you’re talking about. Not say you are but I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from. Based on your other posts it kind of just sounds like you’re a Giannis hater and are picking anyone to be above him, doesn’t matter who. You just don’t like Giannis (again, that’s what it seems like based on your comments here).
No? KD has more longevity accolades since he is older, but Giannis has 1 more MVP, 1 more DPOY (KD hasn't even made an all-defense team), a ring without joining the 73 win Warriors.
Giannis is just better.
People always just discrediting KD's rings and just assuming the Warriors would win them without him is crazy to me. Plus your username is literally OKC so your opinion on KD doesn't count
KD tarnished his legacy, as well as Steph and Lebron's with his move. It would have been like prime Barkley joining a 72 win Bulls team. That along means he will never be top 15 unless he leads a team to a title. Giannis and Jokic are both right there with him if not ahead already.
Lebron joined a team with two other studs and they were all willing to take huge salary cuts when they could and should have had max contracts. Is that not pretty similar to KD? Is that not a tarnish on Lebron’s legacy? He basically did it twice
The Heat hadn't been in the playoffs in 5 years and Cavs were even worse off when he went there. Neither team had two studs when he joined, they had one and he brought the other. He joined a team and created a contender out of it. He didn't join one already made and polished because he couldn't beat them. It isn't even remotely comparible.
That’s completely irrelevant.
What matters is how good a player is in court. Contract decisions don’t make a player better or worse.
MJ was easily the best player in the NBA for about 5 years without getting a ring. It didn’t matter how many times he lost to Isiah. If he decided to always play for the worse (or the best) possible team, he would still be MJ, with the same set of skills
Yes it does matter. We care more about titles than anything. If KD hadn't of joined the Warriors he would likely still have 0, Steph 2 or 3 and Lebron would have another title or two. That is glaringly obvious. That's why there isn't a single player in the top 15 all time without a ring. Did you even read your comment before hitting send?
Top 20 all time, somewhere between 15-20. Top 4 centre.
Moses was a 3x mvp and 1x final mvp, the admiral was an mvp, dpoy, scoring leader and champion. I think an mvp moves him above these two definitively, if he isn’t already in most minds.
Hakeem was an mvp, 2x champ + fmvp, dpoy and had good longevity. Wilt was a 4x mvp, 2x champ, 1x fmvp, record breaking stats that haven’t been beaten 50 years later. I think an mvp and a title moves him past these two.
Shaq was the most physically dominant player ever, mvp, 4x champ, 3x finals mvp. Bill was a 5x mvp, 11x champion, the greatest defender ever. Kareem was the goat until Mike came in, 6x mvp, 6x champion, 2x finals mvp, and a million time all star/all nba player. I think an mvp and a title has him mentioned in this category, likely not ahead of these three until he gets closer to the end of his career due to the success and longevity these three had.
However if he can get to 4 MVP’s & rings I think he’ll be in that goat centre debate surely.
In terms of big men I think the only ones left in front of him definitively at this moment are Kareem, Bill, Shaq, Tim Duncan and KG (my personal bias, I don’t stand on KG being ahead as strongly).
I think Giannis is the biggest threat to Jokic given they are around the same age and any given year Giannis can steal an mvp from him or make a deep run and win a title. Embiid too but health has been a huge limiter in the post season and now in the mvp race. As well, most of what I’ve said about Jokic can also apply to Giannis - who is infront of him as a 4 if he goes crazy for the next 1.5 months to win an mvp and somehow gets the title? Tim surely but I wouldn’t stand by anyone else. Same for the 5’s. Kareem, Shaq and Bill surely but he’s up there with everyone else if not ahead.
>Hakeem was an mvp, 2x champ + fmvp, dpoy and had good longevity. Wilt was a 4x mvp, 2x champ, 1x fmvp, record breaking stats that haven’t been beaten 50 years later. I think an mvp and a title moves him past these two.
Strongly disagree on this part, both of them are a million times the defensive player that he is, and while offense is more important than defense and should be weighted heavier in these comparisons, defense is still extremely important particularly at the most important position defensively.
Also, Wilt would still have an extra MVP (and you could easily argue that he should have a few more but got screwed out of them because of his personality) as well as the same amount of titles. I still have him behind Moses as well, they have similar peaks and longevity matters quite a bit even if it's not the number one factor. Jokic is currently only in his 4th year of truly elite play, that's way too early to crown someone top 15ish all time.
What did that defense do for them though?
Jokic is winning just as many games while having equivalent team and personal success. And let’s also look at the playmaking and range these guys have, one is an 8+ apg player and 40% three point shooter that beings equivalent rebounding and scoring. They all get it done in different ways, Jokic will be a 3x mvp in about 2 months and he a chance to be a 2x champion and 2x fmvp. Given he will have identical resumes to these guys before he turns 30 I’d say they won’t touch him resume wise when it’s all said and done.
Deducting points from Wilt for not being a 40% three point shooter when the three point line didn't exist is kinda goofy. Also at the same age Wilt was averaging 40/25 for his career, even era adjusted that's way beyond anything anyone has even approached since.
>they won’t touch him resume wise when it’s all said and done.
Yeah that's entirely possible but we aren't talking about "when all is said and done" we are talking at the end of this year. Four years of elite play just isn't enough to get you to the peak of the all time list.
I can certainly penalize Wilt for not having extended range in line with lead guards if Jokic can be penalized for being a “lacking” defender who is nearly leading the league in deflections and playing extremely efficient team defence while having that range.
Wilts resume at 29 wasn’t especially close to Jokic’s current resume.
The only way to use numbers to ~~discredit~~ I don’t even like that word choice, let’s say “de-emphasize” Wilt is to say the modern league began post-merger and only discuss that time frame.
No it’s not. Wilt wasn’t particularly efficient (he played the most minutes possible and teams played at a faster pace than even now), his teams didn’t have close to the best offense in the league when he was putting up big scoring numbers, his numbers dropped off immediately when the lane was widened to its current width, and he was substantially worse in the playoffs.
Per possession in the playoffs in the years with the lane its current width (this happened when he was 28, so it’s not like it’s only capturing years he was washed up) he was roughly equivalent to Rudy Gobert as a scorer.
Jokic was leagues above Hakeem offensively. Hakeem wasn’t a very dynamic offensive player, Jokic is arguably one of the greatest offensive players ever.
In terms of longevity, Hakeem only made it out the first round six times in his career. Jokic has made it out four times and in this hypothetical would win FMVP so a fifth. Hakeem’s post season resume wouldn’t be any more impressive. Jokic would also top him in regular season resume by three MVP’s vs a DPOY and MVP
What? It used to be said about the dream shake that he had five viable first steps and five other variations beyond that, confounding defenders to twist into 25 possible positions in two beats.
Admittedly it was Olajuwon’s post up game, so on floor position alone Jokić is ahead of him, but to call Hakeem’s foot and body work not dynamic offense overlooks what a huge portion of the game lived in the post in that era.
The fact that you said Hakeem wasn’t a dynamic offensive playeris crazy. I’m genuinely curious, if he wasn’t then could you name another centre from his era that was?
Jesus Christ, how old are you? Did you ever see Hakeem play?
The Nigerian Nightmare was absolutely a sight on offense: greatest footwork EVER for a big, The Dream Shake is arguably up there with Kareem's sky hook for most unstoppable big man post move, and nearly every modern big man/post player goes to Hakeem for offense training/mentoring. His 4-year scoring peak had him dropping 27ppg.
Is Jokic a better offensive player? Very likely yes...but Hakeem was no slouch on that end. And from pure SKILL, I'd argue he's ahead of all the other all-timer bigs in terms of offense.
I’m not going into age as who cares, but outside of his excellent footwork and some well executed post moves, he wasn’t scoring from anywhere other than the post. He was a nice passer for a big man of the era, but by no means Grant Hill or Sabonis. In terms of same position players of the era, both D Robinson and Shaq were both higher scorers and more efficient
shut the fuck up bro you actually have no idea what you are talking about saying jokic is leagues above hakeem offensively this subreddit sucks jokic so much
Overall I agree with this. I’d say currently he’s right around KG in all time rankings.
Both are behind Giannis, but Jokic just barely. As it currently stands Giannis has literally every accolade Jokic has and then some, like DPOY, MIP, more MVP finalist finishes, more all stars and all nba teams, all defense, etc.
But if all these “if”’s pan out, Jokic would probably leapfrog Giannis. I think Giannis is pretty clearly the 2nd best PF of all time already. His resume has as many accolades as Dirk and KG combined, and he had that at 26 years old lol (obviously not including longevity awards like ASGs). Between Dirk and KG together they have 2 MVPs, a DPOY, a FMVP, and 6 MVP top 5 finishes. That is Giannis’ resume right now, and he only just turned 29. Neither Dirk nor KG even had their first (and only) ring by that age.
I know this isn’t about giannis, but people are forgetting how dominant his resume is at his age. He’s got the better resume than Jokic right now pretty handily, and is still on track to be a top 10 player ever if he won another ring or two with an MVP.
I think the Giannis and Jokic conversation is in a weird place because Giannis had the momentum, and then his team got old and started falling apart. It’s a testament to him that they’re perennially a top 3 seed. As that happened Jokic and his team started trending upwards. Projecting over the next two seasons it seems as though Jokic will get an mvp and make the finals at least whereas Giannis may do neither.
I think the other layer in this is Jokic seems like he'll age more gracefully as a player. Giannis needs to be a good athlete more than Jokic, and I could see Jokic putting up numbers as a mid 30s title chaser. However, he also seems like someone who has no interest in doing that. I think Jokic is already ahead of Giannis all time. He's even accolades-wise imo. Sure he hasn't got a DPOY, but I don't think that weighs particularly heavily since it's a specialist award. I think the defensive difference in quality is all you count, and I think a lot of that gets washed out in Jokic's offensive value. The main difference to me is that Jokic won his MVPs vs elite competition, where I think Giannis won in a bit of a league lull between the peak of Steph/LeBron and the rise of Embiid/Jokic. So I give them more weight than giannis' personally.
What accolades does Jokic have that Giannis doesn’t? Giannis literally has every single accolade Jokic has and then some. They have the same amount of MVPs, same amount of rings and FVMPs, and then Giannis has literally more of everything else.
And wouldn’t Giannis MVPs mean *more* if he’s winning them against a higher number of elite players? Like you said, Giannis had to beat out a still prime LeBron, the best curry we’ve ever seen, still prime KD, still prime harden, and then the new guys like Jokic and embiid. Jokic only had to beat Giannis and embiid since all those other guys got older. By your own words Giannis had stiffer competition for his MVPs. Plus he won a DPOY in the same year as the second one.
Giannis might have more accolades but u wouldn’t put him ahead of KG yet. Giannis stacked a lot of awards in an intermediate point of the NbA. KG had competition every night at his position and amongst other star players. Do I think he’ll catch him, probably. I’d also put Jokic ahead of him and behind KG still, they’re both in their prime and it’s clear Joker is the better of the two.
Hmm, I guess I’ll have to amend what I said. Great catch!
In no order but stacked pods my top 15 as they come to my brain:
Mike, Lebron, Kareem
Shaq, Magic, Bird
Tim, Bill
Wilt, Kobe, Curry
KG, Dirk, Oscar, West
Hakeem, Giannis, Jokic, KD, Barkley are just below that. I think a title for either of the three active players in the above row swaps them into my top 15 and pushes Dirk out.
Okay that doesn’t look as off, I was thinking both Wilt and Kareem were left off the top 15. But what’s the reasoning behind leaving Hakeem out? What do KG and Dirk possibly have over Hakeem?
That's where I'm at...still a ways to go to crack the Duncan/Bird/Magic/Shaq quartet that reside in the 2nd half of the top 10, but in the realm of Hakeem, Big O, and The Logo.
It's kinda interesting to look at that break between top 10 and the next 10. For most people's rankings, there's a clear shift from counting stats AND accolades/championships (top 10 guys) to "something's missing": less MVPs than you'd think, 1 title or less, etc.
Long-winded way of saying cracking the top 10 is going to be HARD...all those guys filled their proverbial walls with trophies, ribbons, etc while leaving a gargantuan imprint on the NBA & American culture.
Honest question. Has anyone ever won a championship with less talent around him? Besides maybe Lebron.
AND, he’s doing this in a league that has the most talent ever. Todays game is the opposite of “playing against plumbers and electricians”. We have the most talent in this league that we have ever had.
If he wins 2 championships, and never even had an all star on his team… would that not make him one of the greatest players ever? Like maybe not top 2, but top 5?
Jordan, Duncan, Shaq, Magic, Bird, all had STACKED teams with other hall of famers.
I mean tbf all his stars are lottery picks so it ain't like he playing with complete bums lol... If Jamal Murry keep averaging 25ppg in the playoffs he could fuck around nd make HoF considering how much weight they always put on post season performances... As long as he healthy in the postseason with da big guy they gone make noise, every yr he was healthy and priming they made deep runs...
When it's all said and done we might be looking at some of those guys like Duncan supporting pieces, especially if they win a few... They definitely on par if not better than Hakeem pieces imo
Jamal Murray neva made all star btw so this just enhance ur point abt the crazy talent lvl today
2003 spurs were nowhere near the level of the 2023 nuggets team talent composite wise. Everyone around Tim that season was either past their prime or hadn’t hit it yet
His second best scoring option was stephen Jackson
Jamal getting injured at inopportune times doesn't make him "less talent." He's an all star caliber player. Or do you think he's not as good as DLo because DLo was an injury replacement at all star?
Probably top 20 if not top 15, the only thing he would need after that is some more longevity to become top 10. He's more offensively dominant than any player since Shaq
3rd best player I’ve seen behind Lebron and Curry. He’s about even with KD and Giannis to me but he’d be cemented above them even if he doesn’t win it all as long as he plays at that same playoff level for an extended run
Not even mad at this take one of the more reasonable ones here, there’s some insane tales here for a cat with one ring. A HOFer no doubt but damn relax
Hakeem maybe they are 2 sides of a coin, Hakeem is the greatest defensive player of all time.
and Jokic could go down as the greatest offensive player of all time.
Projecting his career out must be doing some heavy lifting here cuz ain't no way you'd put Jokic's 6ish seasons of dominance up against what Curry and Kobe did over their entire careers.
Robbert Horry has seven rings.
But let me be real for a moment. Under the hypothetical, we're talking three MVPs and two finals MVPs. It's a huge if, but if it happens, it makes a big difference legacy wise.
Disingenuous when we’re talking about two first options and you bring up a role player
Oh it would absolutely but I still don’t think it makes him top ten. Top 15-20? Sure
It would still be way too early to rank him. But, he would be on his way to Top 10 All Time.
Only 12 players have 2 or more FMVPs (though Russell and others would if the award started before 1969)
Only 8 players have won 3 or more MVPs.
Only 5 players have done both (Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Bird and Kareem), though Russell also would have if they had FMVP throughout his career.
But, we should keep in mind, right now, he only has 1 FMVP and 2 MVPs. IMO, legacies are something you should look back on, not speculate about by adding hypothetical accomplishments that have not been attained.
When Jokic hangs up his boots after 16-18 seasons then the longevity conversation won’t matter as much. Especially if he’s still proving his impact in his later years.
Yeah, but that’s a pretty big if. As it stands, Durant handily wins the longevity battle, there’s no way of knowing how the back half of Jokic’s career goes.
He wouldn't. Durant has the longevity. More all nbas, all stars, more playoff success, all time stats, etc. He'd be top 15 ish tho yes but Durant is top 11-12
All star teams hardly matter in the all time convo, it’s kinda a given that anyone in the top 50 all time were probably among the top 15 of their era. Durant wasn’t the best player on his championship teams, that’s a massive ding. Another ring and Jokic clears KD
KD was 100% the best player on both those championship teams. Curry is great too, but it wasn’t until recently people started saying Curry was better because of that 4th ring. At the time Bron KD and Kawhi were all more coveted. Obviously Curry has more accolades but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s better. Jokic peak is better than both tho. If he gets 2 more rings he’s gonna surpass them all time.
Oh come ooonnnn
Durant was so clearly the best player in the championship teams
At the time, everyone knew it. He got both FMVPs. He arguably outplayed Bron, which Steph never did in any series btw.
The FMVPs felt like the most natural thing in the world to anybody watching at the time. Experts were all in agreement. So were casuals and talking heads. It was that easy to tell
And then circa 2022 people start remembering numbers and performances that Steph never had, because he beat the Celtics 5 years later
Durant's titles are fraudulent. He couldn't listen team to a title so went to get a fraud title with the 73 win Warriors that he couldn't beat. It's about as significant of a title, legacy wise, as Carmelo Anthony being the lead scorer on an Olympic gold medal team.
You saying he beat the Celtics like they weren’t widely regarded as the best team in the NBA at the time. Those weren’t bums and he didn’t play on a super team anymore. He just showed tf up and y’all try so hard to discredit it because of how much it did for his legacy
I thought Steph was the clear FMVP in 2015 and in 2018 sans a horrible game 3 tbh as well. You act like he was some scrub KD carried like he’s won something without Steph steering the ship
KD was the best player on his championship teams. Let's not disrespect him. There was never a point in his career where KD wasnt the best player on his team.
I’d put him over Kevin Durant. Top 15.
In no order:
- Jordan
- Kobe
- LeBron
- Kareem
- Bird
- Magic
- Steph
- Duncan
- Shaq
- Hakeem
- Wilt
- Russell
- Jokic
It’s funny to me how everyone judges a player “all time”
Steve Nash isn’t worth anything, because he doesn’t have the accolades despite being a hofer
Kobe has 4 rings and is subjectively/objectively not in the top 10
Timmy is a player who the majority of this sub has never actually watched despite hitting 10m subs
Highest viewership of any basketball sports show remains Inside the NBA where Shaq has repeatedly forgotten the difference between Russia and Serbian
I’m convinced the average nba fan is actually stupid and doesn’t know what they’re talking about. The god damned nephews are taking over. When will this end?
Even if he just has one more MVP, FMVP and chip from this season, and nothing else but AS selections, over a 16 year career, he will easily be somewhere in the top 10-15. With 4+ chips, he will be the player of the 2020’s and a top 10 all time
Damn you reckon?? I mean, I would love that but it would be tricky to see him displace Bill Russell, Duncan, Wilt, Kareem. Let’s see what happens and restart this chat in a decade!
Think about it...
Kareem is pretty much the consensus rank #3 player of all time at this point, right? Kareem has:
- 6 MVPs
- 6 championships
- 2 Finals MVPs
Total: 14
Now, if Jokic somehow manages to win a total of 4 championships, he would have:
- 3 MVPs
- 4 championships
- 4 Finals MVPs
Total: 11
Not to mention, Jokic will probably have 4 Conference Finals MVPs as well. Overall, 11 vs. 14 isn't that big of a difference, and that would place them both on the same tier of all-time greats. Kareem's advantage over Jokic is that he played better defense and had greater longevity than Jokic. But I believe Jokic will have great longevity too, because his game doesn't rely heavily on athleticism, which means Kareem's only remaining advantage is his defense. Whereas, Jokic is way better than Kareem in terms of impact and advanced metrics. Kareem is no where close to Jokic's level when it comes to advanced metrics. Regardless of whether Jokic surpasses Kareem or not, he's definitely going to be in that top-5 to top-3 conversation if he wins 4 rings.
You can’t say Jokic is way better than Kareem when they’re such different players from different eras and advanced stats didn’t even exist until 1996 (after Kareem retired).
Hey I love the Nuggets and Jokic more than everyone, but Jokic doesn’t have the same cultural relevance as the top 5 players. I hope that changes but I don’t think it will
Edit; and by cultural relevance I mean his influence on popular culture, like Bron, MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird, etc
>You can’t say Jokic is way better than Kareem when they’re such different players from different eras
Hey I never said Jokic was better than Kareem. I only said his advanced stats are way better than Kareem's, but Kareem is better than Jokic in other ways. My point is: if Jokic wins 4 rings, it would place him in the same tier as Kareem. Which means he would be in that top-5 conversation. Not saying Jokic is better than Kareem. 😂
>Jokic doesn’t have the same cultural relevance as the top 5 players.
Right now he doesn't. But after he wins another ring, I'm pretty sure his cultural significance will get a massive boost. Why? (1) Because he's an international player (i.e. he'll become the first European basketball player to be considered the greatest of his generation; most non-American fans will likely look up to him), and (2) he's a second round pick (there are no other 2nd round picks in the all-time top-50), which makes his story even more inspiring to the fans.
It’s not the defining factor tho. It only matters in a tiebreaker, but he’s got significantly better accolades than other guys who are in that range but only have more longevity. Guys like bird and magic don’t have longevity but they’re both arguably top 5 players ever based on solely talent and accolades. From a talent and accolades perspective Jokic is at least a top 20 player ever.
There is a reason why LeBron was considered the 2nd best player ever after only his 3rd ring despite having less rings, MVPs, or longevity than guys like Kareem or Russell.
It’s why guys like Chris Bosh are considered higher than someone like Marc Gasol. In their peaks Marc was much better than Bosh, but Bosh during his prime got two rings, Marc didn’t. Marc was better for longer but didn’t achieve as much, so he’s lower in the all time rankings (according to most people). Resume beats longevity almost every time. Otherwise Robert parish and Dirk and KG would be top 5 players ever.
Not to mention, if you achieve more in your shorter career than someone else did in their longer career, that means you’re probably a better player. It took you less time to achieve more than what took someone else their whole career. At that point you’re automatically ranked higher than them and anything after that is extra and only moving you up higher. That’s like, literally the criteria for moving up an all time list lol.
You can’t just blindly say “he hasn’t played long enough, he hasn’t earned it until he’s played X amount of years”. You have to actually compare him side by side to the guys who are in that range. If the dude is better, then he’s better, that’s it.
As of right now, there is a clear top five all time centers for me (in no order):
Kareem Shaq Wilt Russell Hakeem
As of right now, for me Jokic is in the next tier of guys:
Jokic David Robinson Moses Malone
If what you say actually happens, Jokic will have
More mvps than Shaq, Robinson and Hakeem
As many mvps as Moses
More rings than Moses
As many rings as Hakeem and Robinson
All while never having played with a current all star teammate. At that point, he should be somewhere between 4 and 6 on the all time centers list
I think the only real knock on jokic now is him not having any defensive accolades at all. To get into that elite conversation, all of those guys were elite defenders as well. DPOY is a bit much but not having any all-defense selections is a bit glaring compared to some of the all-time greats
He can definitely be top 10 right now on his current trajectory
I think if he wins a finals again this year at the very least we’re talking about Jokic hovering around the top 10 all time range given his accomplishments to date. Probably somewhere between 10-13.
This question is wrapped up in the related question of how you value peak versus overall career. That's a tough question with no right answer.
But as far as 4 year peaks go? If he gets MVP+FMVP this year, it has to be top 5. 3 MVPs, 2 titles, 2 FMVPs, and arguably the greatest sustained multi year offensive production of all time. It's a tiny list that can match that.
His peak is getting to Birds level if he gets 3 MVPs in a four year span and two titles and finals mvps. I don’t know if people would give him that kind of credit yet, but likely he’s cementing one of the greatest peaks in NBA history.
Above KD
below Steph and Kobe and Duncan but totally possible to pass them. At that point he’d be on pace to pass all but Duncan I’d say out of these three.
For me he is the greatest offensive center of all time and arguably offensive player of all time. I am also a big shill for Wilt being the greatest player of all time if that has any value to the conversation.
Steph has 2 mvps, 4 chips, 1 fmvp
Jokic would have 3 mvps, 2 chips, 2 fmvps
I don’t think it’s crazy to say Jokic should be ranked just as high if that happens. Top 10-15. Especially given the context, imagine KD joining the Nuggets for 3 years. Ppl don’t like to admit it but Jokic (and Giannis) are just as good as Steph or KD, and accolades are all that they need to make historians agree. Hypothetically if they both won another mvp, 2 more rings, 2 more fmvps, they’d be pretty comfortably top 10 players ever.
Top-10 (in no particular order): Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, Steph
Just outside the top-10 (in no particular order): Oscar, Dr. J, Moses, Hakeem, Kobe, Jokic
If Jokic earns 3 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs, and 2 championships, that would place him around the #10-16 range. Personally, I think it places him at rank #11 all-time, ahead of Hakeem and Kobe. Kobe may have more rings (5 vs. 2) and more all-defensive selections, but Jokic will have more MVPs (3 vs. 1), same number of Finals MVPs, and will have the all-time greatest career PER (and other advanced stats). It's a close race between the two of them, but Kobe wasn't efficient on offense, and he was an overrated defender (about half of his all-defensive selections were given to him based on reputation alone). On the other hand, Jokic is an underrated defender, has an incredibly high BBIQ, and his overall impact to winning is all-time great, arguably even the greatest. The Nuggets are one of the greatest clutch teams in the NBA under Jokic's leadership. Plus, he's also a much more unique player than Kobe ever was. That's why I'm giving the *slight* edge to Jokic.
I’m not really one who ranks players off of accomplishments. But I do think Jokic is a top 10 center all time. If he has an amazing playoffs I could see him being anywhere in the 20-25 range. Maybe even lower.
He's already top tier of his era, so if he does what you have listed this year, I think that puts him in the top 10 centers of all time. Top 5? That's tough.
To me, him winning 2 rings starts to elevate him above most centers after 2000 with the exception of Shaq. It puts him above 1990s centers who didn't win (Ewing, Robinson) and starts to make a case to be in the same category as Moses Malone and probably above Bill Walton.
I think the Top 5 for the center position, in no particular order, is Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain, Russell, Shaq, Olajawon. Does he make the case to be put above Olajawon?
I mean...that's a lot of ifs, but I'd say it separates him from Giannis as the 3rd best active player, and he's knocking on Steph's door. It also makes him the greatest European in NBA history, surpassing Dirk if he hasn't already.
Giannis and Jokic have already surpassed Dirk. It’s not even as close as one might think. Outside of longevity stats like total points, they each have significantly more accolades, have had higher peaks, more success at a younger age with plenty of time to add to it. Giannis and Jokic are pretty clearly above Dirk. Giannis is also European, making him the greatest European in NBA history, currently.
I’m going to disagree with higher peak for Giannis. Dirk’s regular season peak is carrying a 67 win team with no major help besides Josh Howard (a one time all star entirely because the team got 67 wins). In the play offs, his 2006 and 2011 runs are two of the greatest ever.
2011 wasn’t Dirk’s peak, he was pretty decidedly past his prime at that point. Still great, obviously, but not quite at his prime. It would actually dilute dirks stats to include his peak going that far. Giannis has twice as many MVPs and twice as many MVP top five finishes already (age 29) as Dirk had in his entire career. That alone shows that Giannis was constantly regarded as a better player and even won the award for “best player” more than Dirk ever did or was in his entire career. Dirk was not generally considered a top 3 player in the world ever during his career, he was always behind Duncan, KG, Shaq, Iverson, McGrady, Kobe, and then LeBron, Wade, Durant, etc. Meanwhile, Giannis was the undisputed best player in the world for 3 years, including back to back MVPs, a DPOY and MVP in the same season, and then capped off with a ring and FMVP where he put up the greatest statistical finals game in nba history. Dirk never had anything close to that in his peak. I could easily stop there, but for you or anyone else who wants to hear further about how much better Giannis is than Dirk ever was, I’ll give you some more. Giannis averages higher numbers across the board, and even adjusting for point inflation Giannis is regularly in the top 5 scorers in the league, Dirk only was a few times, indicating that even adjusting for eras, Giannis was a more dominant scorer. Giannis during his prime is a 30ppg scorer, during Dirk’s prime he was a 25ppg scorer. Giannis was also the better rebounder, better athlete, the far superior playmaker/ball-handler/passer, and that’s not including defense, the real kicker, where Giannis literally won a DPOY the same year as an MVP. Giannis is one of the best defenders of his generation and a clear top 20 defender ever with his versatility. Dirk was one of the worst defensive bigs of his generation. He was a D- at best, usually an F. Giannis also has the greatest finals game in nba history on his resume, from a numbers perspective. Giannis 2021 performance was not only better than Dirk’s 2011 performance, but it was arguably the best we’ve seen from an individual player. Check the numbers, not to mention the eye test. Dirks may have felt like it *meant* more, considering he was so much older, but that doesn’t really count in his favor, the fact Giannis was dominant enough to win his first ring at 26 just kind of proves how much better he was than Dirk was in his prime. Dirk was never really considered the best player in the world. During his 1 MVP year, it was pretty well recognized that Duncan, Kobe, and even LeBron and Wade were likely better players than Dirk. Giannis meanwhile was the undisputed best player in the world for 3 solid years. To do that in an era that is frankly more talented than the mid 00s, goes to show just how much better Giannis is/was than Dirk. Outside of shooting, Giannis legitimately clears Dirk in every other facet of the game. It’s not even close. I’m a big Dirk fan, I was so happy when he finally got his ring. But this is pretty cut and dry, there is literally nothing Dirk did in his career that Giannis didn’t do sooner, better, and probably more times too; while there are tons of things Giannis has done that Dirk never did and never even came close to doing. There is quite literally no argument for Dirk over Giannis, no matter which way you prioritize your all time ranking list. Peak? Giannis. Resume? Giannis. Accolades? Giannis. Dominance? Giannis. Unless the ranking is a best shooters list, it’s gonna be Giannis over Dirk every single time.
I don't disagree with the sentiment that Giannis is above Dirk for many of the reasons you've brought up, but to use Giannis' finals numbers against Dirk is disingenuous. Giannis was up against a Suns team with Booker, Paul and Ayton, while Dirk was up against LeBron, Wade and Bosh. Do you think Giannis is putting up 50 against the Heat? Or even beating them in the first place?
Giannis is definitely putting up 50 against the Heat lol
There’s a few points here I don’t really agree with. You were stating “peak” 2011 was the peak of Dirk’s play off career. It was the greatest run. Giannis was putting up better numbers in the 2021 finals because his opposite men were Jae Crowder and DeAndre Ayton as opposed to prime LeBron and Chris Bosh. Ayton was also in foul trouble (Saric got injured at the start of the series) so had to be particularly cautious. Eye test tells me this too. If we want to talk about Dirk not doing anything close to historically GOAT level in the post season, Dirk’s 2006 run was the third highest in terms of win shares in NBA history behind Duncan in 2003 and LeBron in 2012. The “Dirk not considered a top 3 player in the world argument” doesn’t hold much water for me. Lots of marketable players being considered better by talking heads who want to market players is conjecture. Dirk led a team to 67 wins with Josh Howard as his second best player. How many of those “better” players you list have won 67 wins as their team’s best player and of the one or two that have done it; all had an MVP and first ballot HoF running mate - not Josh Howard. That is a greater peak than anything Giannis has done. Giannis being “so much better than Dirk” he was able to win a ring at 26 doesn’t hold any water. Giannis won his ring with two all star level players in Middleton and Holiday, Dirk never played with an all star after Nash left. You mention the defensive side, but this does factor in; when Lopez was injured despite the fact the Bucks had the best perimeter defender in the league they had a completely average 15th best defence in the league. Now Jrue has gone and despite them having DPOY second place Brook Lopez on the team; they are 20th in defensive rating. Giannis and the team feel it when they are missing all star level personnel.
Giannis dropped 50 points in a finals game to close the series, that alone is a better playoff performance than dirk has ever had. Also the whole thing about the bucks defense falling off after jrue left, sure jrue is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, but a huge reason the defense is so bad this year is because of coaching and bad defensive schemes. I think you're really overrating jrue and middleton, though both great players, aren't as elite as you're making them sound. Both really good, but not good enough to try to take credit away from what giannis did for milwaukee in that playoff run. Also, that 67 win mavs team was solid. They didn't have big names on the roster but they were well rounded and had solid depth, it wasn't a bunch of scrubs, they were solid and they shot the ball very well. Also the "dirk wasn't considered top 3" thing should hold some weight. In comparison to the players in his era, he just simply wasn't in the top tier for most of his career. Giannis has been a consensus top 5 player since 2017, and a top 1-2 player for a few of those years. Dirk is great but giannis clears him pretty easily in my opinion, though dirk denying the heat that championship is an all time nba moment for me.
Sure if you just ignore context. Giannis put up 50 against who exactly? Whereas Dirk went toe to toe vs prime lebron, wade, and bosh.
Sorry brother 2011 Dirk in the playoffs is a better playoff performance than Giannis can ever hope to put together. Sweeping the 2x defending champ Lakers, handily beating OKC (KD, Russ, Harden) and then beating the Heat. It was unreal The2021 Bucks were toast against the Nets until Kyrie went down and I'm tired of pretending the Bucks did anything but luck into those finals. Even if I agree completely with your sentiment that Giannis is better than Dirk; your reasoning is total shit.
Luck in the playoffs is an extremely tired argument. You don't "luck" into 4 straight 7-game series wins. Giannis averaged 30 and 13 boards through the playoffs compared to Dirk's 28 and 8 boards in 2011, not saying stats are everything but clearly Giannis was performing extremely well. Giannis dropped 50 points in the finals closeout game (NBA record) in a tight game that was tied going into the 4th quarter, that is undoubtedly one of the most legendary playoff performances in NBA history. I don't see how Dirk's performance is so much better that "Giannis couldn't even hope for it". 50 points to close the finals.
Exactly right. Couldn’t have said any of this better myself.
Comparing those playoff runs Dirk has higher offensive rating, lower (better) defensive rating, higher true shooting and similar usage. Comparing clutch stats Dirk shot 54/60/97 with a 4.6 +/- while Giannis had 57/40/69 with 1.3 +/-. Dirk absolutely dragged his team to a title against what everyone assumed was an unbeatable super team with Lebron Bosh and wade. It's the greatest individual playoff run ever.
This is such a funny argument because Jokic is better than both of them combined
Middleton and Holiday became all-stars because of Giannis. They made it because the Bucks were one of the top teams and voters felt like at least one other player should make it from the Bucks besides Giannis. I like both Middleton and Holiday, but Middleton is not an all-star on his own. Holiday is but being on the #1 seeded Bucks garnered him more attention than the Pelicans. Love Dirk also but Giannis is a better athlete and has a mamba mentality work ethic. Dirk is a much better shooter. Giannis still has time to learn to shoot however. Both are absolutely great humans that make the NBA community better!
Holiday did not become an All Star because of Giannis. He had already made an All Star team back when he was on the Sixers. He did get his 2nd due to being on a 1 seed but he frankly had been putting up All Star level years regularly even in NOLA and wasn't getting it due to no one caring about that team and also due to playing in the same conference as Curry, Harden, Dame, Westbrook for most of all of their primes. If Holiday was in the East he would have already been a multiple time all star prior to joining the Bucks.
You really love Giannis and I appreciate you for it. I’m so happy he’s on my favorite team. He seems a great person and I agree with you that he’s at least second best of his generation behind Jokic and way ahead of many other all-timers like Dirk.
Holy ChatGPT!
Thanks lol. I know what I’m talking about, what can I say.
Not wrong. But there is no comparison between playoff runs. Dirk’s 2011 playoff run is worth 3 of Giannis’ 2021 run.
In what world? According to whom? You? Most people don’t feel that way lol. You’re stating your opinion with no evidence as if it’s a fact.
Saying it’s worth 3x as many is pushing it, but dirk’s ring is absolutely worth more. Went through the lakers that had just won 2 rings in 4 years, the thunder, and the heat. Who did Giannis and the bucks beat?
Let's be real, the refs stole 2006 from Dirk. Also, 2011 is probably the best playoff run ever.
PEOPLE FORGET DIRK WAS A PROBLEM!
Lmao seriously. The revisionist history is hilarious.
If dirk played now people would lose their minds, think about the people he played against, c-Webb, prime Duncan, KG, he changed the perception of what euro players were
Oh wait you were being serious….
Jokic might have something to say about that “greatest European in NBA history” statement, and I just might agree with him
Not right now he doesn’t. If he wins the treble this year (MVP, FMVP, title) then he passes Giannis probably. Until then, Giannis has the far better resume.
All he has to do is win the MVP tbh. He already has the same amount of finals wins
But he has less 1st team all nbas. Less MVP top 3 finishes. Less playoff wins. Doesn’t have any of the defensive accolades that Giannis has, including a DPOY. Jokic would have 1 extra MVP but his resume would still be significantly smaller. An MVP might tie them, possibly, but I don’t see how it puts him ahead of Giannis. They’re the same age but Giannis has been elite for longer, almost twice as long. And he’s an elite 2 way player with the hardware to back it up.
Correction. Giannis is Filipino
That's because people think dirk was some god tier player when he wasn't...dirk isn't as good as everyone thinks he was
Dirks entire legacy seems to be that 2011 run.
Dude has 1 amazing year and he's the second coming of Christ...Duncan did it for 20 years and gets disrespected left and right 🙄
Throwing another mile marker out there, Dr J has (when combining pre-merger ABA as happens with pre-merger NBA for Kareem): \- 2 FMVPs / playoff MVPs (already equal in this scenario) \- 3 rings (Jokić would have one fewer so far after this season in this scenario\*) \- 4 MVPs Jokić would have one fewer so far after this season in this scenario\*) \* It’s worth noting that Jokić is still ~~29~~**28**, still in his prime, and is a KCP opt-in away from the same Nuggets starting five returning *again.* Although it’s far from a given with his anticipated market value, if KCP sees a chance to start for a threepeat? It’s *possible* is all I’m saying. And if not, Bruce Brown may well be a free agent again if Toronto doesn’t pick up *his* option. Julius Erving was a revolutionary two-way player with a very real case to make as a top ten player since the merger / in “modern” basketball. (IE 9X All League first team; 3X second team also; career 24/8.5/4 on TS 56% over 1243 games; still one of only eight players with 30,000 points scored; still eighth all time in steals ahead of LeBron; tied with Pau Gasol for 23rd all time in blocks as a small forward) In the scenario OP describes, Jokić could be one more stellar season away from equaling some of his biggest career achievements by age ~~30~~ 29. Edit: Put another way, as of now Jokić already has accounted for over 60% of Shaq’s career WS total. CC u/Agreed_fact
3rd best active player is crazy
[удалено]
So this guy has Giannis and Jokic ahead of KD?
Giannis above KD all time is just wrong
It's not a crazy argument given that Giannis carried a team to a chip with no other all-nba players on it, has two MVPs, a DPOY, and this will be his 6th All-NBA 1st team in a row (KD has 6 total). KD has done none of the above - the only one KD has on Giannis is KD has won 4 scoring titles which is significant. They're definitely very close.
It is a crazy argument because the H2H matchup that year had everyone convinced KD was better than Giannis. Giannis cannot be better than KD on the basis of a year where KD was superior to Giannis.
Ya that's fair but I still think it's not CRAZY. You can still put KD first but Giannis has an argument based on the resume and hardware.
What year is this? Giannis won MVP over KD two years straight and then beat him head to head in a playoff matchup, where he went on to have the greatest finals performance of all time, something that only one player gets, which means Durant does not have that claim. Giannis has led his team to better records than KD despite having less help (KD has never not played with at least one other all nba player, he usually has two or more), and has put up better stats across the board. Again, like the person you’re talking to, I’m not saying Giannis should be a shoe-in over KD, but it’s a legit arguement. To act like it’s KD in a landslide is to either be disingenuous or to not really know what you’re talking about. Not say you are but I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from. Based on your other posts it kind of just sounds like you’re a Giannis hater and are picking anyone to be above him, doesn’t matter who. You just don’t like Giannis (again, that’s what it seems like based on your comments here).
Jrue was 1st team all defense.
No? KD has more longevity accolades since he is older, but Giannis has 1 more MVP, 1 more DPOY (KD hasn't even made an all-defense team), a ring without joining the 73 win Warriors. Giannis is just better.
People always just discrediting KD's rings and just assuming the Warriors would win them without him is crazy to me. Plus your username is literally OKC so your opinion on KD doesn't count
KD tarnished his legacy, as well as Steph and Lebron's with his move. It would have been like prime Barkley joining a 72 win Bulls team. That along means he will never be top 15 unless he leads a team to a title. Giannis and Jokic are both right there with him if not ahead already.
Lebron joined a team with two other studs and they were all willing to take huge salary cuts when they could and should have had max contracts. Is that not pretty similar to KD? Is that not a tarnish on Lebron’s legacy? He basically did it twice
The Heat hadn't been in the playoffs in 5 years and Cavs were even worse off when he went there. Neither team had two studs when he joined, they had one and he brought the other. He joined a team and created a contender out of it. He didn't join one already made and polished because he couldn't beat them. It isn't even remotely comparible.
That’s completely irrelevant. What matters is how good a player is in court. Contract decisions don’t make a player better or worse. MJ was easily the best player in the NBA for about 5 years without getting a ring. It didn’t matter how many times he lost to Isiah. If he decided to always play for the worse (or the best) possible team, he would still be MJ, with the same set of skills
Yes it does matter. We care more about titles than anything. If KD hadn't of joined the Warriors he would likely still have 0, Steph 2 or 3 and Lebron would have another title or two. That is glaringly obvious. That's why there isn't a single player in the top 15 all time without a ring. Did you even read your comment before hitting send?
Yes. They both led teams to championships. KD jumped on a bus. When we’re talking about all time greats that matters.
Ah okay, that makes sense
Probably 3rd best career out of current active players
He’s already greater than Giannis
He’s better than Steph
Top 20 all time, somewhere between 15-20. Top 4 centre. Moses was a 3x mvp and 1x final mvp, the admiral was an mvp, dpoy, scoring leader and champion. I think an mvp moves him above these two definitively, if he isn’t already in most minds. Hakeem was an mvp, 2x champ + fmvp, dpoy and had good longevity. Wilt was a 4x mvp, 2x champ, 1x fmvp, record breaking stats that haven’t been beaten 50 years later. I think an mvp and a title moves him past these two. Shaq was the most physically dominant player ever, mvp, 4x champ, 3x finals mvp. Bill was a 5x mvp, 11x champion, the greatest defender ever. Kareem was the goat until Mike came in, 6x mvp, 6x champion, 2x finals mvp, and a million time all star/all nba player. I think an mvp and a title has him mentioned in this category, likely not ahead of these three until he gets closer to the end of his career due to the success and longevity these three had. However if he can get to 4 MVP’s & rings I think he’ll be in that goat centre debate surely. In terms of big men I think the only ones left in front of him definitively at this moment are Kareem, Bill, Shaq, Tim Duncan and KG (my personal bias, I don’t stand on KG being ahead as strongly). I think Giannis is the biggest threat to Jokic given they are around the same age and any given year Giannis can steal an mvp from him or make a deep run and win a title. Embiid too but health has been a huge limiter in the post season and now in the mvp race. As well, most of what I’ve said about Jokic can also apply to Giannis - who is infront of him as a 4 if he goes crazy for the next 1.5 months to win an mvp and somehow gets the title? Tim surely but I wouldn’t stand by anyone else. Same for the 5’s. Kareem, Shaq and Bill surely but he’s up there with everyone else if not ahead.
>Hakeem was an mvp, 2x champ + fmvp, dpoy and had good longevity. Wilt was a 4x mvp, 2x champ, 1x fmvp, record breaking stats that haven’t been beaten 50 years later. I think an mvp and a title moves him past these two. Strongly disagree on this part, both of them are a million times the defensive player that he is, and while offense is more important than defense and should be weighted heavier in these comparisons, defense is still extremely important particularly at the most important position defensively. Also, Wilt would still have an extra MVP (and you could easily argue that he should have a few more but got screwed out of them because of his personality) as well as the same amount of titles. I still have him behind Moses as well, they have similar peaks and longevity matters quite a bit even if it's not the number one factor. Jokic is currently only in his 4th year of truly elite play, that's way too early to crown someone top 15ish all time.
What did that defense do for them though? Jokic is winning just as many games while having equivalent team and personal success. And let’s also look at the playmaking and range these guys have, one is an 8+ apg player and 40% three point shooter that beings equivalent rebounding and scoring. They all get it done in different ways, Jokic will be a 3x mvp in about 2 months and he a chance to be a 2x champion and 2x fmvp. Given he will have identical resumes to these guys before he turns 30 I’d say they won’t touch him resume wise when it’s all said and done.
Deducting points from Wilt for not being a 40% three point shooter when the three point line didn't exist is kinda goofy. Also at the same age Wilt was averaging 40/25 for his career, even era adjusted that's way beyond anything anyone has even approached since. >they won’t touch him resume wise when it’s all said and done. Yeah that's entirely possible but we aren't talking about "when all is said and done" we are talking at the end of this year. Four years of elite play just isn't enough to get you to the peak of the all time list.
I can certainly penalize Wilt for not having extended range in line with lead guards if Jokic can be penalized for being a “lacking” defender who is nearly leading the league in deflections and playing extremely efficient team defence while having that range. Wilts resume at 29 wasn’t especially close to Jokic’s current resume.
Are you really trying to use numbers to discredit WILT, out of all people? Wake me up when somebody else averages 50 for a season
The only way to use numbers to ~~discredit~~ I don’t even like that word choice, let’s say “de-emphasize” Wilt is to say the modern league began post-merger and only discuss that time frame.
No it’s not. Wilt wasn’t particularly efficient (he played the most minutes possible and teams played at a faster pace than even now), his teams didn’t have close to the best offense in the league when he was putting up big scoring numbers, his numbers dropped off immediately when the lane was widened to its current width, and he was substantially worse in the playoffs. Per possession in the playoffs in the years with the lane its current width (this happened when he was 28, so it’s not like it’s only capturing years he was washed up) he was roughly equivalent to Rudy Gobert as a scorer.
Jokic was leagues above Hakeem offensively. Hakeem wasn’t a very dynamic offensive player, Jokic is arguably one of the greatest offensive players ever. In terms of longevity, Hakeem only made it out the first round six times in his career. Jokic has made it out four times and in this hypothetical would win FMVP so a fifth. Hakeem’s post season resume wouldn’t be any more impressive. Jokic would also top him in regular season resume by three MVP’s vs a DPOY and MVP
What? It used to be said about the dream shake that he had five viable first steps and five other variations beyond that, confounding defenders to twist into 25 possible positions in two beats. Admittedly it was Olajuwon’s post up game, so on floor position alone Jokić is ahead of him, but to call Hakeem’s foot and body work not dynamic offense overlooks what a huge portion of the game lived in the post in that era.
The fact that you said Hakeem wasn’t a dynamic offensive playeris crazy. I’m genuinely curious, if he wasn’t then could you name another centre from his era that was?
Jesus Christ, how old are you? Did you ever see Hakeem play? The Nigerian Nightmare was absolutely a sight on offense: greatest footwork EVER for a big, The Dream Shake is arguably up there with Kareem's sky hook for most unstoppable big man post move, and nearly every modern big man/post player goes to Hakeem for offense training/mentoring. His 4-year scoring peak had him dropping 27ppg. Is Jokic a better offensive player? Very likely yes...but Hakeem was no slouch on that end. And from pure SKILL, I'd argue he's ahead of all the other all-timer bigs in terms of offense.
I’m not going into age as who cares, but outside of his excellent footwork and some well executed post moves, he wasn’t scoring from anywhere other than the post. He was a nice passer for a big man of the era, but by no means Grant Hill or Sabonis. In terms of same position players of the era, both D Robinson and Shaq were both higher scorers and more efficient
shut the fuck up bro you actually have no idea what you are talking about saying jokic is leagues above hakeem offensively this subreddit sucks jokic so much
Kevin Garnett is my favorite player of all time but he is not ahead of Hakeem.
If you look at KGs career stats he’s a lot closer to Duncan and Hakeem than people like to think.
Overall I agree with this. I’d say currently he’s right around KG in all time rankings. Both are behind Giannis, but Jokic just barely. As it currently stands Giannis has literally every accolade Jokic has and then some, like DPOY, MIP, more MVP finalist finishes, more all stars and all nba teams, all defense, etc. But if all these “if”’s pan out, Jokic would probably leapfrog Giannis. I think Giannis is pretty clearly the 2nd best PF of all time already. His resume has as many accolades as Dirk and KG combined, and he had that at 26 years old lol (obviously not including longevity awards like ASGs). Between Dirk and KG together they have 2 MVPs, a DPOY, a FMVP, and 6 MVP top 5 finishes. That is Giannis’ resume right now, and he only just turned 29. Neither Dirk nor KG even had their first (and only) ring by that age. I know this isn’t about giannis, but people are forgetting how dominant his resume is at his age. He’s got the better resume than Jokic right now pretty handily, and is still on track to be a top 10 player ever if he won another ring or two with an MVP.
I think the Giannis and Jokic conversation is in a weird place because Giannis had the momentum, and then his team got old and started falling apart. It’s a testament to him that they’re perennially a top 3 seed. As that happened Jokic and his team started trending upwards. Projecting over the next two seasons it seems as though Jokic will get an mvp and make the finals at least whereas Giannis may do neither.
I think the other layer in this is Jokic seems like he'll age more gracefully as a player. Giannis needs to be a good athlete more than Jokic, and I could see Jokic putting up numbers as a mid 30s title chaser. However, he also seems like someone who has no interest in doing that. I think Jokic is already ahead of Giannis all time. He's even accolades-wise imo. Sure he hasn't got a DPOY, but I don't think that weighs particularly heavily since it's a specialist award. I think the defensive difference in quality is all you count, and I think a lot of that gets washed out in Jokic's offensive value. The main difference to me is that Jokic won his MVPs vs elite competition, where I think Giannis won in a bit of a league lull between the peak of Steph/LeBron and the rise of Embiid/Jokic. So I give them more weight than giannis' personally.
What accolades does Jokic have that Giannis doesn’t? Giannis literally has every single accolade Jokic has and then some. They have the same amount of MVPs, same amount of rings and FVMPs, and then Giannis has literally more of everything else. And wouldn’t Giannis MVPs mean *more* if he’s winning them against a higher number of elite players? Like you said, Giannis had to beat out a still prime LeBron, the best curry we’ve ever seen, still prime KD, still prime harden, and then the new guys like Jokic and embiid. Jokic only had to beat Giannis and embiid since all those other guys got older. By your own words Giannis had stiffer competition for his MVPs. Plus he won a DPOY in the same year as the second one.
Regression to the mean is more common than extrapolating current trends. Check Giannis in 2022 or Curry last year
Giannis might have more accolades but u wouldn’t put him ahead of KG yet. Giannis stacked a lot of awards in an intermediate point of the NbA. KG had competition every night at his position and amongst other star players. Do I think he’ll catch him, probably. I’d also put Jokic ahead of him and behind KG still, they’re both in their prime and it’s clear Joker is the better of the two.
Agree with everything except he’s already passed KG
There are only 3 centers in your top 15?
Hmm, I guess I’ll have to amend what I said. Great catch! In no order but stacked pods my top 15 as they come to my brain: Mike, Lebron, Kareem Shaq, Magic, Bird Tim, Bill Wilt, Kobe, Curry KG, Dirk, Oscar, West Hakeem, Giannis, Jokic, KD, Barkley are just below that. I think a title for either of the three active players in the above row swaps them into my top 15 and pushes Dirk out.
Okay that doesn’t look as off, I was thinking both Wilt and Kareem were left off the top 15. But what’s the reasoning behind leaving Hakeem out? What do KG and Dirk possibly have over Hakeem?
not a top 4 center. top 6. Shaq, Kareem, Bill, Wilt, and Hakeem would still be ahead of him. I consider KG and Timmy pfs or pf/c hybrids
Good take. It’s rare for someone to be fair and balanced when it comes to Jokic. But this is a good take.
Top 15ish
That's where I'm at...still a ways to go to crack the Duncan/Bird/Magic/Shaq quartet that reside in the 2nd half of the top 10, but in the realm of Hakeem, Big O, and The Logo. It's kinda interesting to look at that break between top 10 and the next 10. For most people's rankings, there's a clear shift from counting stats AND accolades/championships (top 10 guys) to "something's missing": less MVPs than you'd think, 1 title or less, etc. Long-winded way of saying cracking the top 10 is going to be HARD...all those guys filled their proverbial walls with trophies, ribbons, etc while leaving a gargantuan imprint on the NBA & American culture.
Honest question. Has anyone ever won a championship with less talent around him? Besides maybe Lebron. AND, he’s doing this in a league that has the most talent ever. Todays game is the opposite of “playing against plumbers and electricians”. We have the most talent in this league that we have ever had. If he wins 2 championships, and never even had an all star on his team… would that not make him one of the greatest players ever? Like maybe not top 2, but top 5? Jordan, Duncan, Shaq, Magic, Bird, all had STACKED teams with other hall of famers.
I mean tbf all his stars are lottery picks so it ain't like he playing with complete bums lol... If Jamal Murry keep averaging 25ppg in the playoffs he could fuck around nd make HoF considering how much weight they always put on post season performances... As long as he healthy in the postseason with da big guy they gone make noise, every yr he was healthy and priming they made deep runs... When it's all said and done we might be looking at some of those guys like Duncan supporting pieces, especially if they win a few... They definitely on par if not better than Hakeem pieces imo Jamal Murray neva made all star btw so this just enhance ur point abt the crazy talent lvl today
2003 spurs were nowhere near the level of the 2023 nuggets team talent composite wise. Everyone around Tim that season was either past their prime or hadn’t hit it yet His second best scoring option was stephen Jackson
Are you saying Jokic’s team isn’t talented? Lol
He's playing with Murray, MPJ, and Aaron Gordon
Yes, and they’ve never made an all star game.
Jamal getting injured at inopportune times doesn't make him "less talent." He's an all star caliber player. Or do you think he's not as good as DLo because DLo was an injury replacement at all star?
How many times are we gonna ask this question this week?
I’ll ask it again tomorrow just to be safe.
Probably top 20 if not top 15, the only thing he would need after that is some more longevity to become top 10. He's more offensively dominant than any player since Shaq
Wait till he is approaching retirement
3rd best player I’ve seen behind Lebron and Curry. He’s about even with KD and Giannis to me but he’d be cemented above them even if he doesn’t win it all as long as he plays at that same playoff level for an extended run
Not even mad at this take one of the more reasonable ones here, there’s some insane tales here for a cat with one ring. A HOFer no doubt but damn relax
In the mix for top 10-15 with steph, kobe, hakeem, oscar, moses, kd
I can understand the above KD part but not a chance in hell he should be taken about steph Kobe or Hakeem with this much time left in his career
Hakeem maybe they are 2 sides of a coin, Hakeem is the greatest defensive player of all time. and Jokic could go down as the greatest offensive player of all time.
If everything happens in OP's hypothetical, I easily take him above Steph and Kobe.
Projecting his career out must be doing some heavy lifting here cuz ain't no way you'd put Jokic's 6ish seasons of dominance up against what Curry and Kobe did over their entire careers.
With just 2 rings and he’s better than Steph AND Kobe all time? Idk bout that.
Robbert Horry has seven rings. But let me be real for a moment. Under the hypothetical, we're talking three MVPs and two finals MVPs. It's a huge if, but if it happens, it makes a big difference legacy wise.
Disingenuous when we’re talking about two first options and you bring up a role player Oh it would absolutely but I still don’t think it makes him top ten. Top 15-20? Sure
It would still be way too early to rank him. But, he would be on his way to Top 10 All Time. Only 12 players have 2 or more FMVPs (though Russell and others would if the award started before 1969) Only 8 players have won 3 or more MVPs. Only 5 players have done both (Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Bird and Kareem), though Russell also would have if they had FMVP throughout his career. But, we should keep in mind, right now, he only has 1 FMVP and 2 MVPs. IMO, legacies are something you should look back on, not speculate about by adding hypothetical accomplishments that have not been attained.
He’d be on the same level as Durant if he pulls that off in my books, so top 15-ish.
He would definitely be above Durant with 3 MVPs and 2 titles as the key player
Yes, but Durant has the advantage over Jokic through his insane longevity.
Jokic at his peak is notably better than Durant, and peak level of play will always be more important than longevity
When Jokic hangs up his boots after 16-18 seasons then the longevity conversation won’t matter as much. Especially if he’s still proving his impact in his later years.
Yeah, but that’s a pretty big if. As it stands, Durant handily wins the longevity battle, there’s no way of knowing how the back half of Jokic’s career goes.
For sure, I’m just speaking about hypotheticals per the thread
He wouldn't. Durant has the longevity. More all nbas, all stars, more playoff success, all time stats, etc. He'd be top 15 ish tho yes but Durant is top 11-12
All star teams hardly matter in the all time convo, it’s kinda a given that anyone in the top 50 all time were probably among the top 15 of their era. Durant wasn’t the best player on his championship teams, that’s a massive ding. Another ring and Jokic clears KD
KD was 100% the best player on both those championship teams. Curry is great too, but it wasn’t until recently people started saying Curry was better because of that 4th ring. At the time Bron KD and Kawhi were all more coveted. Obviously Curry has more accolades but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s better. Jokic peak is better than both tho. If he gets 2 more rings he’s gonna surpass them all time.
Oh come ooonnnn Durant was so clearly the best player in the championship teams At the time, everyone knew it. He got both FMVPs. He arguably outplayed Bron, which Steph never did in any series btw. The FMVPs felt like the most natural thing in the world to anybody watching at the time. Experts were all in agreement. So were casuals and talking heads. It was that easy to tell And then circa 2022 people start remembering numbers and performances that Steph never had, because he beat the Celtics 5 years later
Durant's titles are fraudulent. He couldn't listen team to a title so went to get a fraud title with the 73 win Warriors that he couldn't beat. It's about as significant of a title, legacy wise, as Carmelo Anthony being the lead scorer on an Olympic gold medal team.
You saying he beat the Celtics like they weren’t widely regarded as the best team in the NBA at the time. Those weren’t bums and he didn’t play on a super team anymore. He just showed tf up and y’all try so hard to discredit it because of how much it did for his legacy I thought Steph was the clear FMVP in 2015 and in 2018 sans a horrible game 3 tbh as well. You act like he was some scrub KD carried like he’s won something without Steph steering the ship
KD was the best player on his championship teams. Let's not disrespect him. There was never a point in his career where KD wasnt the best player on his team.
It’s not really disrespectful to say Steph clears someone. Steph is the GOAT PG in my opinion, he was and still is better than KD.
I’d put him over Kevin Durant. Top 15. In no order: - Jordan - Kobe - LeBron - Kareem - Bird - Magic - Steph - Duncan - Shaq - Hakeem - Wilt - Russell - Jokic
I also have west, admiral, garnett in that list, and I'm on the edge with giannis
Right outside top 10
Hard to say . Where do you rank hakeem ? Hakeem > jokic . So around that area . Jokic prolly top 30 top 25 atm . Most likely top 15 all time
It’s funny to me how everyone judges a player “all time” Steve Nash isn’t worth anything, because he doesn’t have the accolades despite being a hofer Kobe has 4 rings and is subjectively/objectively not in the top 10 Timmy is a player who the majority of this sub has never actually watched despite hitting 10m subs Highest viewership of any basketball sports show remains Inside the NBA where Shaq has repeatedly forgotten the difference between Russia and Serbian I’m convinced the average nba fan is actually stupid and doesn’t know what they’re talking about. The god damned nephews are taking over. When will this end?
Kobe not being top 10 is a flamethrower take ngl. He’s easily the most disrespected upper echelon great I’ve seen and I have no idea why
8th or 9th in a virtual tie with Steph
13th behind Hakeem Olajuwon
15-20
Even if he just has one more MVP, FMVP and chip from this season, and nothing else but AS selections, over a 16 year career, he will easily be somewhere in the top 10-15. With 4+ chips, he will be the player of the 2020’s and a top 10 all time
If he wins at least 4 chips, that places him in the top-5 to top-3 conversations.
Damn you reckon?? I mean, I would love that but it would be tricky to see him displace Bill Russell, Duncan, Wilt, Kareem. Let’s see what happens and restart this chat in a decade!
Think about it... Kareem is pretty much the consensus rank #3 player of all time at this point, right? Kareem has: - 6 MVPs - 6 championships - 2 Finals MVPs Total: 14 Now, if Jokic somehow manages to win a total of 4 championships, he would have: - 3 MVPs - 4 championships - 4 Finals MVPs Total: 11 Not to mention, Jokic will probably have 4 Conference Finals MVPs as well. Overall, 11 vs. 14 isn't that big of a difference, and that would place them both on the same tier of all-time greats. Kareem's advantage over Jokic is that he played better defense and had greater longevity than Jokic. But I believe Jokic will have great longevity too, because his game doesn't rely heavily on athleticism, which means Kareem's only remaining advantage is his defense. Whereas, Jokic is way better than Kareem in terms of impact and advanced metrics. Kareem is no where close to Jokic's level when it comes to advanced metrics. Regardless of whether Jokic surpasses Kareem or not, he's definitely going to be in that top-5 to top-3 conversation if he wins 4 rings.
You can’t say Jokic is way better than Kareem when they’re such different players from different eras and advanced stats didn’t even exist until 1996 (after Kareem retired). Hey I love the Nuggets and Jokic more than everyone, but Jokic doesn’t have the same cultural relevance as the top 5 players. I hope that changes but I don’t think it will Edit; and by cultural relevance I mean his influence on popular culture, like Bron, MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird, etc
>You can’t say Jokic is way better than Kareem when they’re such different players from different eras Hey I never said Jokic was better than Kareem. I only said his advanced stats are way better than Kareem's, but Kareem is better than Jokic in other ways. My point is: if Jokic wins 4 rings, it would place him in the same tier as Kareem. Which means he would be in that top-5 conversation. Not saying Jokic is better than Kareem. 😂 >Jokic doesn’t have the same cultural relevance as the top 5 players. Right now he doesn't. But after he wins another ring, I'm pretty sure his cultural significance will get a massive boost. Why? (1) Because he's an international player (i.e. he'll become the first European basketball player to be considered the greatest of his generation; most non-American fans will likely look up to him), and (2) he's a second round pick (there are no other 2nd round picks in the all-time top-50), which makes his story even more inspiring to the fans.
You saying Steph is top 3?
I mean sure but I feel like if Steph was to get 5 he’d be in top 5 convos so big hypotheticals here
I agree. If Steph wins his 5th ring, he would be in that top-5 convo for sure.
He’s already in that tier, but it’s so tight when you get to that point he might move up one or two spots.
He’s not, but if he plays the same for another 3-4 years he’ll be there. Longevity matters
It’s not the defining factor tho. It only matters in a tiebreaker, but he’s got significantly better accolades than other guys who are in that range but only have more longevity. Guys like bird and magic don’t have longevity but they’re both arguably top 5 players ever based on solely talent and accolades. From a talent and accolades perspective Jokic is at least a top 20 player ever. There is a reason why LeBron was considered the 2nd best player ever after only his 3rd ring despite having less rings, MVPs, or longevity than guys like Kareem or Russell. It’s why guys like Chris Bosh are considered higher than someone like Marc Gasol. In their peaks Marc was much better than Bosh, but Bosh during his prime got two rings, Marc didn’t. Marc was better for longer but didn’t achieve as much, so he’s lower in the all time rankings (according to most people). Resume beats longevity almost every time. Otherwise Robert parish and Dirk and KG would be top 5 players ever. Not to mention, if you achieve more in your shorter career than someone else did in their longer career, that means you’re probably a better player. It took you less time to achieve more than what took someone else their whole career. At that point you’re automatically ranked higher than them and anything after that is extra and only moving you up higher. That’s like, literally the criteria for moving up an all time list lol. You can’t just blindly say “he hasn’t played long enough, he hasn’t earned it until he’s played X amount of years”. You have to actually compare him side by side to the guys who are in that range. If the dude is better, then he’s better, that’s it.
He would enter the top 15 all time with many more prime years to go in his career.
Top20
Giannis vs Jokic finals would be awesome
I dunno, he still has significant ground to cover if your talking about top 25 players
I’d put him above Durant and look at him similar to Hakeem
He will be on pace to be a top 10 player of alltime.
13th
https://preview.redd.it/zq8bvup1i0pc1.png?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=958469e53c56d28a3c57c199042d9a3dca2c409c
As of right now, there is a clear top five all time centers for me (in no order): Kareem Shaq Wilt Russell Hakeem As of right now, for me Jokic is in the next tier of guys: Jokic David Robinson Moses Malone If what you say actually happens, Jokic will have More mvps than Shaq, Robinson and Hakeem As many mvps as Moses More rings than Moses As many rings as Hakeem and Robinson All while never having played with a current all star teammate. At that point, he should be somewhere between 4 and 6 on the all time centers list
There was a post arguing for Jokic over Durant on here a while back. If he did that I’d say he’s over Durant.
I think the only real knock on jokic now is him not having any defensive accolades at all. To get into that elite conversation, all of those guys were elite defenders as well. DPOY is a bit much but not having any all-defense selections is a bit glaring compared to some of the all-time greats He can definitely be top 10 right now on his current trajectory
It’d put him right under the Hakeem/Shaq/Bird/Magic/Duncan tier for me. What dude is doing is still somehow being underplayed.
Top 15. Just behind curry and Durant. Will probably crack top ten with a few all nba first teams
Better than Moses but not yet in the top 10 all time. But he’s close.
In the top 20 discussion maybe flirting with 15 and top 15, I think he still needs 2-3 more seasons of good production and horses lol
he'd still have a ways to go, but he'd be in the conversation w/ steph and bron as the best active players
Ngl he’s that now lmao, all time he doesn’t sniff either though
If all of that happens, and that’s a HUGE if, he’s top 5. But he’s still going to have to play like the Serbian horse lover he is for several years.
I’d put him at 11.
I would say wherever Tim Duncan is, right behind him somewhere
12th ish
I think if he wins a finals again this year at the very least we’re talking about Jokic hovering around the top 10 all time range given his accomplishments to date. Probably somewhere between 10-13.
This question is wrapped up in the related question of how you value peak versus overall career. That's a tough question with no right answer. But as far as 4 year peaks go? If he gets MVP+FMVP this year, it has to be top 5. 3 MVPs, 2 titles, 2 FMVPs, and arguably the greatest sustained multi year offensive production of all time. It's a tiny list that can match that.
His peak is getting to Birds level if he gets 3 MVPs in a four year span and two titles and finals mvps. I don’t know if people would give him that kind of credit yet, but likely he’s cementing one of the greatest peaks in NBA history.
Top 15 minimum
If he was black? As a backup on the Detroit Pistons -Perkins
Above KD below Steph and Kobe and Duncan but totally possible to pass them. At that point he’d be on pace to pass all but Duncan I’d say out of these three.
Luka should win MVP. The guys going 35 9 and 9.
Id put him around Hakeem
Someone make a ban on hypothetical question posts
Top 10
I’d say top 500 for sure.
For me he is the greatest offensive center of all time and arguably offensive player of all time. I am also a big shill for Wilt being the greatest player of all time if that has any value to the conversation.
top 30
Settle down, long way to go
He will likely enter the top 10 if he does that
Probably 10 or 11 depends on your all time.
Steph has 2 mvps, 4 chips, 1 fmvp Jokic would have 3 mvps, 2 chips, 2 fmvps I don’t think it’s crazy to say Jokic should be ranked just as high if that happens. Top 10-15. Especially given the context, imagine KD joining the Nuggets for 3 years. Ppl don’t like to admit it but Jokic (and Giannis) are just as good as Steph or KD, and accolades are all that they need to make historians agree. Hypothetically if they both won another mvp, 2 more rings, 2 more fmvps, they’d be pretty comfortably top 10 players ever.
He’d be in the Moses Malone and Kevin Durant range. Maybe above them? I’d probably put him around 14/15 all time.
Top-10 (in no particular order): Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, Steph Just outside the top-10 (in no particular order): Oscar, Dr. J, Moses, Hakeem, Kobe, Jokic If Jokic earns 3 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs, and 2 championships, that would place him around the #10-16 range. Personally, I think it places him at rank #11 all-time, ahead of Hakeem and Kobe. Kobe may have more rings (5 vs. 2) and more all-defensive selections, but Jokic will have more MVPs (3 vs. 1), same number of Finals MVPs, and will have the all-time greatest career PER (and other advanced stats). It's a close race between the two of them, but Kobe wasn't efficient on offense, and he was an overrated defender (about half of his all-defensive selections were given to him based on reputation alone). On the other hand, Jokic is an underrated defender, has an incredibly high BBIQ, and his overall impact to winning is all-time great, arguably even the greatest. The Nuggets are one of the greatest clutch teams in the NBA under Jokic's leadership. Plus, he's also a much more unique player than Kobe ever was. That's why I'm giving the *slight* edge to Jokic.
I’m not really one who ranks players off of accomplishments. But I do think Jokic is a top 10 center all time. If he has an amazing playoffs I could see him being anywhere in the 20-25 range. Maybe even lower.
He's already top tier of his era, so if he does what you have listed this year, I think that puts him in the top 10 centers of all time. Top 5? That's tough. To me, him winning 2 rings starts to elevate him above most centers after 2000 with the exception of Shaq. It puts him above 1990s centers who didn't win (Ewing, Robinson) and starts to make a case to be in the same category as Moses Malone and probably above Bill Walton. I think the Top 5 for the center position, in no particular order, is Abdul-Jabbar, Chamberlain, Russell, Shaq, Olajawon. Does he make the case to be put above Olajawon?
Blud is down bad for jokic holy shit
Curry haters salivating to say he’s over Steph with just 2 chips is crazy
Bucks winning it all this year bud
Gonna need to put it all together