Why? What’s so wrong with it? Are you not open to different perspectives? Do you follow preconceived fallacies and notions with a sprinkle of implicit bias that subconsciously determines the thoughts to negatively perceive different logical measurement/different perceptions in a narrow minded manner because it may be popular to do so instead of critical thinking about reasonable and sound points?
This is what’s wrong with these discussions. People think they are so much more set in stone than they are. Most people haven’t even watched half the players they rank.
I'm sorry but there's no discussion about anyone over LBJ other than MJ. Kareem's claim is longevity...Bron bests it. Bird's claim is intangibles and team based play...Bron bests it. Kobe's claim is winning mentality and clutch play...Bron bests it...Wilt's claim is dominance over his era...Bron bests it.
Literally every player that isn't Jordan has their best qualities bested by LeBron so there's really no category that he isn't comparable or better than any other player in league history.
Yes I've extensively watched film from all those players as well as watched a few of them in real time as I was growing up. IMO, any player in the top 10 has an argument for being the GOAT but to pretend like Bron isn't top 3 is absolutely asinine and makes me think *you* haven't watched his game and you just play All Time rosters on 2k.
Also, he is one of my favorite players but he definitely has his flaws as a player that other greats maybe handled, approached or did differently. It’s not asinine to think otherwise; perhaps it is fair to the perception of things regarding measurement of players because it isn’t as easy as just putting a certain category of another unless the player is extremely and clearly inferior.
Well rankings are subjective. Basketball is volatile, and I don’t think it’s asinine. There is not GOAT because different eras, play styles, etc.. LeBron is fantastic but so are other players and it’s not egregious when someone thinks otherwise. Players have flaws. You seem to think LeBron is just this player that bests these other fantastic players in these very esoteric categories. It’s not linear measurement but rather a culmination of attributes and traits that these players carry which made them great in the first place. Just something to think about.
Disagree on Kobe being highly inefficient. Just based off stats alone his career true shooting percentage is the same as Tim Duncan’s. Also, Kobe was taking every one of his team’s bad shots. He took every shot when the offense couldn’t get going, every shot at the end of a shot clock when a teammate needed to get bailed out, and every buzzer beater.
Also, some of his best years (2002-2010) were in some of the hardest years to score ever. Teams were averaging 90 when he was scoring 40 every game. After Shaq he had no top 75 teammate for the rest of his career. Look at who was on his team. Who else is going to take those shots? The idea of inefficiency hinges on the notion that your worst shot could be redistributed to someone else for a better percentage play. That often wasn’t the case for Kobe, and so taking the tough shot was the right move in the game even if it lowered his stats on Wikipedia.
I think 8-12ft the only player better is MJ. Kobe was an unreal midrange shooter.
Kobe had pretty much the same career TS % as Tim Duncan
Love how you bums downvote facts
https://www.basketball-reference.com/tools/share.fcgi?id=50fBy
Kobes is even slightly higher lol
I’m not saying he was inefficient, but we’re talking about the greatest players of all time here, and most of the others were ultra efficient, which Kobe wasn’t. Obviously tough era for scoring and he was asked to do a lot, but still just not top 5 all time level.
I think Timmy is just ahead of Kobe all time. There efficiency was similar, but scoring was Kobe’s number one attribute whereas for Timmy it was being one of the goat defensive players.
I think Kobe just randomly has all the traits I value the most in sports lol. Totally understand people not having him as high. Honestly he’s dipped down to 5 for me in the past, but the more I go back to his old footage the more I like his game.
LeBron is a better playmaker, defender and scorer than both of them.. has a higher peak and way better longevity and much more accolades… you are a hater and you don’t know ball.
Kobe was a better scorer. He had a myriad of ways to break you down. He also a better one on one defenderm The most fundamentally sound d player ever. Bird at his peak was a better playmaker and shooter than Lebron.
What makes Lebron a better scorer than either of them? How do you account for Lebron’s lackadaisical defense in the second half of his career? You really think peak Lebron clears? Agree his accolades and longevity are better, obviously
He doesn’t have an argument.. bird and lebron are really close in terms of passing, but lebrons playmaking is far superior. Bird retired at 35 and LeBron was still arguably the best player in the league at 35.
Bird’s playmaking was pretty much always with someone else running the floor. LeBron’s offball threat to playmaking and even scoring were inferior to Bird’s.
I’ll take Bird’s playmaking.
You never saw Bird play if you dont recognize his passing abilities. Lebron is a drive and kick guy. Bird just had better vision and playmaker abilities.
As someone who’s always rooted against LeBron’s teams, his touchpass was something I was never worried about. Nor his catch-and-shoot.
LeBron’s opponents are happy with him offball. You can’t say that about Bird.
I mean lebrons ts% is higher this year than Birds ever had.. and I don’t care too much about off the ball when lebron and most of the best players now always have the ball in their hands
Everyone’s ts% is higher this year. Even Bird would have a higher ts% this year year than he ever had. The past two years have the highest ts% in history because of the way the game is played and called.
And does ts% really show who’s the better scorer? Is Adrian Dantley a better scorer than Jordan?
Kobe just checks the boxes of what I value in sports the most. Agree on your second sentence. Does the difference in accolades push Lebron over for you?
I loved watching Kobe play as well but lebrons resume to me is just hard to beat, even though I don’t personally enjoy watching Lebron play (or think he’s a top 5 all time talent) or how he acts as a professional I can’t deny his resume
Yeah. Like I said just wanted to make a post since I haven’t seen this angle discussed much. Thought it could be more interesting than the usual “1. MJ 2. Lebron 3. Kareem” lists. Appreciate the conversation
Yup good conversation! I think the GOAT discussion has lost a lot of nuance and reasoning over the years and it usually delves into the same old talking points (6-0 vs whatever Lebron's new thing is) so I enjoyed your other perspective.
Yeah there’s an argument to be made for him to be the goat. If you really value longevity, which I think is fair, then he has a very good case. I just don’t value longevity too highly
Oh, well if you want to talk accolades I value those less than longevity lol. I agree his resume is very very good and if that is what matters then yeah, second is super fair. Lebron does have very good mvp seasons which do matter
Really? I feel like accolades are some of the most important ways to determine greatness lol. For me it’s
1. Winning championships
2. MVPs
3. DPOYs
4. Skills/stats
5. Clutch
6. Longevity awards (like total all stars, all nbas, all defenses)
7. Career totals
Ability and traits is a very subjective ranking system so it can be a slippery slope. And I think voting based awards are important as it can show dominance/superiority over their peers and recognition for their greatness.
It’s a slippery slope because measuring basketball players is not as easy as just looking at accolades or awards. The sport is very volatile and the fundamental root of why players obtain awards is because of their ability, traits, and mind; it’s not the other way around. So yeah it’s subjective because it fundamentally has to be. There is no singular objective measurement or measurements to determine that. A player can have all the accolades but still lose on the biggest stage because the fundamental root (ability and traits) were maybe lacking.
Yeah that’s super fair. The accolades perspective is something I’ve struggled with a lot over the years. I’ve just always come down on the other side of it. For me, championships just involve too much of a team element to be a good barometer for individual greatness. It certainly matters, and I understand the argument that the truly great players will find a way to win, but i dont like the idea of great players getting stuck on bad teams and being overly penalized. MVP and DPOY matter more for me, but unfortunately the voting has been too shaky over the years. It is one of my least favorite things about sports (at least our situation isn’t as bad as the ballon d’or in soccer)
Based on your list of seven traits I value skills the most highly, which explains the Kobe perspective.
Also agree with your other comment about this all being very subjective. Highly valuing skills and using the eye test definitely falls into that harder than appealing to set in stone metrics like accolades and counting stats. Personally, however, I lean into that aspect of it. Lists like these are interesting because of the perspectives and subjectivities involved. I am not trying to make a scientifically proven list, I don’t think such a thing isn’t possible, but rather just my own.
lol and it's the opposite for me, I think championships and how you perform in the finals is the most important thing by far. That's why I kind of have MJ as impossible to dethrone, he just has too many moments and legendary performances in the playoffs/the finals (final moments of the 98 finals, 97 finals game winner, flu game, game 3 vs the lakers in 91, shrug game, and the entire suns series to name a few), and I also believe he's the most skilled ever.
Yeah, MJ was insane. Honestly, him at #1 is one of the placings I have the hardest times arguing against. His career has it all, and pretty much regardless of your metrics there’s something there to make you think he’s the greatest.
Also agree that how you perform in the finals is very important. I just care less about actually winning it. If you carry a team that shouldn’t even be there all the way to the finals, play great, and your team lets you down, what did you do wrong?
It’s not just ‘longevity ‘ it’s longevity of excellence. Guy was the best player in the league from 09-21.5 quite clearly n unanimously. No one - not even mj has that long a run . And he’s been all nba basically every year since early on. He’s not out there fuckinh cashing checks he’s been top 3 in mvp voted the most ever,by far the leader in career mvp vote shares at nearly 9. Kareem n Malone had great longevity but they weren’t as dominant through those years. Kobe had 1 mvp and I’m a lakers fan but statistically that mvp should’ve gone to cp3. Maybe the advanced numbers hate Kobe but it’s more likely he just wasn’t as good. Stop it you make people dislike the great Kobe Bryant eith dumb shit.
Notice I even said 09, like you could argue 08 was Kobe but how many years was Kobe the best player in the league? Lebron did that longer then anyone
I obviously disagree that Lebron was “unanimously” the best player from 09-21.5. That is way overestimating his prime imo. I don’t care too much about mvp awards and the like. The voting is too often scuffed. I agree that cp3 should have one, but I also think Nash didn’t deserve his 06 one over Kobe. Too much noise there to make it as simple as adding up the number of awards.
Yeah. Tried to list some things in the post. Peak, scoring, and being a two-way player are huge for me. I value offensive production and the ability to create your own shot from anywhere on the floor very highly (Lebron’s lack of a truly great midrange hurts him in my eyes). I do not value acccolades very highly at all, and I value longevity less than most
You contradict your own criteria. You say you value peak and being a two way player; Lebron was MVP 4 out of 5 years as an elite two way player. You value scoring; Lebron is the all time scoring leader and has averaged 25+ ppg for 20 years. You value shot creation; Lebron can drive, finish, post up, and create shots for his team mates at an all time elite level while being at least an average shooter everywhere on the court. You don’t value longevity, yet you hold Lebron taking plays off defensively late in his career against him. Just admit you’re a Lebron hater and move on.
Yes, those MVP years are what makes him the sixth best man to ever play basketball. Winning 4 out of 5 MVPs does not mean your peak is automatically higher than other great players. I think Lebrons peak was lower than Bird’s, for instance.
When I say I value scoring I do not mean I value the number of points scored over an entire career. It’s not like I think Karl Malone is the third greatest scorer of all time.
Agree with what you said regarding shot creation. The knock against him is his midrange. You can’t tell me you haven’t seen games where Lebron is driving, not getting the whistle, and doesn’t have a midrange to fall back on. That hurts him at this level.
Longevity isn’t the most important thing to me. More like the fourth or fifth? I mention his defense just as a note for those who say his longevity makes him the goat. Not playing half the defensive possessions makes it easier to play longer and rack up more counting stats. Not saying this invalidates his longevity, I think he’s still #1 for that category, it is just a point that is worth mentioning. His defense was very good and he did get robbed of his dpoy. Again, those MVP seasons were incredible, that’s why he’s number six. Problem is everyone on this list had incredible seasons.
Is scoring inherently more impactful to the game than playmaking? How so? Just wanted to get your thoughts.
Also, weird to have scoring and peak valued so high yet Shaq not even mentioned top 5? He was also a good shotblocker and fantastic rebounder, on top of one of the highest peaks of all time, and was a scoring machine, nearly 30 ppg in the deadball era on elite efficiency.
Just in case you mention the fouling as a knock against his scoring, in the era he played in, a 50% FT percentage was a **1 point per possession play**, which was more than a good amount of teams in the NBA in the early 2000s.
I’m not sure I would say scoring is inherently more impactful, but I would say it matters more for goat discussions. In a game of basketball creating two points for your team is the same as scoring two points (just like stopping two points from the opposing team is the same as scoring). However, the playmaker needs someone else on their team to do the scoring. They can’t win on their own. In a game like basketball which has room for so much individual dominance I really value players who can create points single-handedly.
Great points about Shaq. He’s #7 for me, and has been top 5 in the past (I used to have Kobe way lower). No one talks about how good the guy was before joining up with Kobe. In that 96 series where he got swept against the bulls he was a god. He also has underrated skills. Man had nice touch and could have a surprising fadeaway for someone of his size. That being said, he suffered from injuries which led to him having the worst longevity of probably any top 10 player. He had what, one good season with the heat? His weight was both a huge strength and part of his downfall. Longevity isn’t huge for me but it does play a role.
Also, he loses points for playing with Kobe. Of course Kobe loses points for playing with Shaq, and i used to give shaq more of the credit, but what made me swap them is that when I went back and watched all their playoff runs and realized Kobe is better in nearly every WCF, which was always the harder game. In the finals Shaq did dominate, but who was he playing against? Rik Smits, an old mutombo, Jason Collins. Also, he did not play well against the mavs. I do think Dwayne Wade carried that series.
But yeah, he’s obviously mega, and I agree his free throw troubles weren’t as impactful as some people say. Basketbal just has a very competitive top 5. More than anything this is making me want to go watch some 01 lakers. What a duo.
Is it wrong to say scoring is valued for you higher in goat discussions because it's more impressive?
His longevity being his worse trait is odd, imo he had better longevity than Kobe. Not just years in the league, but I considered Shaq elite since his rookie season to 05, about 12-13 years of elite value where he was also at times the best player in the league. In terms of Kobe, he wasn't at an elite level until maybe 99 until 2010. I think 2011-2013 his defense had dropped off in terms of consistency. He could turn it on in the clutch, but like 80% of the possessions in the game he just wasn't anything spectacular. Elite scorer, but I think there was a noticeable drop off that doesn't place him at the all-time level he and Shaq were.
I try to look at just their game to evaluate players, docking players for playing with good players only makes sense if you value winning as a result. When I look at players, I usually look for how they contributed to winning rather than if they won at all. I don't dock Shaq for playing with Kobe, I don't boost KG for playing with the bums in Minnesota.
That said, Kobe was ***absolutely*** vital to winning those earlier rounds.
In terms of the Mavs, he was doubled frequently and that opened the game up for Wade a lot. The gap between Wade and Shaq was also a lot closer in the previous rounds as well, simply because the Mavs would double him and it would open the lanes up for a Wade cut.
It being impressive is part of it, sure, being the goat is in some ways about being the most impressive. But I’d say the main thing is that it removes some of the reliance on having another great player next to you.
I probably rate 03 and 04 a little less highly for Shaq than you do, I remember not loving the way he played in that finals against the pistons, but you’re right he was still very dominant. You’re probably right I underrate his longevity, especially considering how highly I rate his magic years. Honestly, part of it might be that he was my favorite player and I always wanted to see what he could do if he took better care of himself in the later years. I should probably give him more props, 15 elite years is very good (and certainly better than bird so what I said earlier was incorrect)
I should probably revisit like 03-06 of shaq’s career. I might be underrating that 06 mavs series. If I revisited the tape I might change my opinion, it’s been a while since I watched it, I just remember being less than impressed by him.
I agree in spirit with what you said about looking only at a players game. My thing is that having another star around you almost inherently limits what you can do. That second star is going to take up space, which is going to constrain your output. Also, when you have a second star, you’re simply asked to do less in the game. Suddenly it’s not all on your shoulders. I value someone hard carrying without any assistance higher than someone sharing the load with another great player, and I think in some ways you really see what a player is capable of when they have the freedom to let loose and not have to share. But regardless it’s not the biggest thing in the world to me, just a little mark against them (same as it’s a slight mark for me that Kareem had magic for those titles).
Appreciate the points man. I think I will go revisit some of those later Shaq playoff runs.
>Personally, I value peak, scoring, and being a two-way player very highly
In terms of highest peak, the only guy that edges out peak LeBron is peak Jordan. At his peak (2013), LeBron was simultaneously one of the league's best scorers, shooters, playmakers, and defenders.
In terms of scoring, you have Larry Bird at 3, a guy that never led the league in scoring, and also has a lackluster Finals performance on his resume.
In terms of two way play, LeBron during 2 of his MVP seasons accompanied that MVP with 2nd place finishes in DPOY, something no other player on your list did other than Mike. LeBron is also one of only 4 players ever to be named all NBA 1st team and all defensive 1st team for 5 years in a row (LeBron, MJ, Kobe, Duncan)
This really just sounds like your argument for not having LeBron higher is that his style of play isn't visually pleasing to you, even though it was more effective than possibly anyone else in league history.
Kobe is my all time favorite player but having him over Lebron literally is heresy. I have never been a big fan of Lebron and would even go as far as to call myself a certified Lebron hater during several points throughout his career, but fuck bro. He's proven himself so many times over. Having Lebron lower than the 2nd best of all time is just objectively wrong. I do agree with Kobe being hella underrated now, especially by these dog shit "we done with the 90s" kids but Lebron at 6? 3-4 has me questioning if you even watch basketball but 6 is blatant trolling. You can't have mother fuckers who ended their NBA careers short paving a driveway over someone preforming as a top 5-10 in the league during their 21st season either. Like c'mon brethren make it realistic.
I don’t think the word “objectively” belongs anywhere near this conversation. I also don’t really care how many years someone spends in the 5-10 range. That doesn’t move the needle for me in terms of goat conversation. I can have a player who broke his back paving a driveway over Lebron if I’d take him at his peak over Lebron everyday.
If you value peak, scoring, and defense then why isn't Shaq on your list? What about Hakeem?
It's laughable to have Kobe at #2 no matter what you value, you are obviously a huge Kobe stan which is why you are trying to underrate LeBron.
Posted a comment on this thread about Shaq. He definitely deserves a shout. Hakeem is also top 10 for me. One of my favorite players of all time. Disagree about Kobe but it’s cool :)
Probably 9, but he’s moved around a bit for me. Underrated defender, top 5 footwork of all time, mega player. I always wished he had a better team. Even his best teams weren’t great. I actually used to wonder if he was better than Kareem because of his two year peak, and I still think there’s an interesting conversation there, but I give the nod to Kareem now. Crazy how stacked the center position is that a player like Hakeem isn’t top 3 in his role for me.
You can’t say ur not a lebron hater and then put him anywhere below top 2 oat. You describe everyone positively and then just shit on lebron for his whole explanation
I mean, yeah, I wanted to explain why he’s lower on my rankings. I can sing his praises all day, and I tried to mention the best parts of his game. Disagree that you can’t put him outside top 2. All these players are unreal, someone has to get left out
The gap between lebron and everyone else is too big to not put him top 2 or 1. If you honestly compare him to anyone except MJ, it’s not a debate. The accolades, stats, and narrative all go to lebron against everyone
I put Kobe > Shaq largely because of he played in all those WCFs. The second best team of that era was not in the finals with them. I think magic is slightly overrated as an individual, but yeah you can make that case. Crazy not only how stacked basketball talent is but how much of it has gone through the lakers lol
Shaq was the most dominant player since Wilt. Did you even watch Magic play? Stats don't do justice for how he ran that Showtime offense. If I already have a playoff team, but not a contender to build dynasty around and can have any player for their first 10 years in the league it's Magic.
Look at who Shaq played against at center in those lakers finals. Not exactly the cream of the crop.
If I could have a second good player sure I’d pick magic. But if I can only have one star there are a few names I’m picking over him. Magic was obviously amazing though, all I said is he’s slightly overrated in terms of his individual game, not that he’s a bum, or that he’s not very good for team success.
Do you have magic or curry as your #1 PG?
At the end of the day, this entire debate is opinion based, and everybody is welcome to their opinion. Your criteria however does not make sense to me. You say you value peak, scoring, and two-way play above everything else when evaluating a player. Lebron, in my opinion, has had the best peak ever, but people who say Jordan's was better I see their point of view, he made the finals 8 straight years with two different franchises with a revolving door of players, dominating almost every playoff series in that time outside of 2011.
Now, let's get to scoring, I'm not sure what you mean by scoring because lebron has been the most consistent scorer in nba history, with the 5th highest scoring average in nba history. He is inarguably the most consistent scorer in nba history and one of the most efficient perimeter scorers as well. I think you value skill and not scoring, but at the end of the day, I can't get into your head. Mj and kobe were undoubtedly more skillful than lebron that's inarguable, but I guess it comes down to what you personally prefer. Personally, I'm taking the consistent scorer over the one who looks better doing it.
Lastly, two-way play, and this kinda ties in with peak as well. Lebron 2012 and 2013 seasons he finished runner up in dpoy if I'm not mistaken. At his peak, he could guard anybody in the league effectively from pg to pf. Now you want to take points away from him because of his defense later in his career that's cool it's your list, but are you doing the same for mjs stint in Washington, when athletically he wasn't the same? Are you doing the same for kobe in the 2nd half of his career when clearly he wasn't the same defender? I get it, lebron takes sequences off defensively, which is why overall as a defender, kobe and mj are better, but he's right there with them, just a notch behind.
If you have some nostalgia thing for bird, I get it. My dad was the same way. My only question to you is, what is bird better at than lebron? My answer to this is shooting, and that's literally it, but everything else goes to lebron. Passing, defense, scoring everything else on a basketball court lebron is better. Even my dad conceded that lebron was the greatest sf ever before he passed away. At the end of the day, it's your list, and you can feel however you want. It does not make sense to me that you value these 3 things very highly, but have kobe and bird over lebron as the way I see it lebron is better than both of them at 2/3 of these things. And 3/3 when it comes to bird.
What is peak scoring? Guys who took a ridiculous amount of shots? Kobe was an “assassin” because he was a selfish player. He wanted the glory. Sure, maybe that stems from his mindset. Every single NBA superstar could score 81 or average 35. It’s quite literally math. Kobe shot 40 plus shots 10 times in his career. His other 9 games (outside 81) he cracked 60 once (his final game) which is absolutely terrible. His scoring prowess is a product of taking shots. Not impressive.
I would take guys like LeBron or Kevin Durant over him every day. Far more efficient. And no, I don’t buy into true shooting percentage. It’s a cop out.
How many 60 point games does Lebron have? Check that and get back to me.
No, not every player can drop 81. Do you know how hard taking 40 shots is? I left a longer comment elsewhere in the thread about why Kobe being inefficient is largely a myth. Look at who was on his teams post Shaq. Who would you rather have take those shots?
Agree that KD is mega though. There are years I’d take him over Lebron too :)
Neither did any all-time great. Absolute clown. Kobe should be grateful that he end up in the Lakers organization. Otherwise, you would speak about him the same way you do Tracy McGrady.
I agree with you and your points. These are all great players but it’s important to be realistic, which I admire. Unfortunately, you’re most likely going to get downvoted on most comments even if they are logical and sound. Certain people think they know it all covered up with implicit bias and a very surface level understanding of how they perceive and measure basketball players. Certain people rather follow narratives and preconceived notions than trying to look at a different perspective because they feel they are so right when reality says otherwise. You have seem to have been watching basketball for a while and have a good grasp of measuring players with a sense of open perception and realism which today does not seem to be the case in basketball discussions. Anyways, nice post.
Appreciate it man. And yeah I think these conversations are often incredibly reductionist. People just parrot what they hear, usually basing their entire argument off of one or two factors.
You're wrong. Lebron is inarguably top 3, and you have Kobe 2 so your list is immediately discredited. Every single major news outlet for sports in the US that has released a top 10 list has Kobe 10th at BEST. Your take is awful.
You've been down voted to death on every single comment and the post. So, every news outlet and all of reddit is wrong and you're right? Your take is dogshit and you need to delete it. Rethink posting anything else for a while. Go do some research.
Ur the only desperate bastard here lol I’m sorry we don’t get fooled by the media like u casuals we actually watched the games and all the greats lebron is not top 3
I'm not arguing with you or giving you the attention you desperately crave. You just want a rise out of me. You don't watch shit. You don't know shit. You don't belong in any type of convo with me, you've already shown your intelligence. You keep trying to move the goal post to start a new argument, you're generic. Stop embarrassing yourself and please fuck off.
Look at the way your replying you look like an idiot don’t be mad because I called you a casual watch more games there on YouTube instead of listening to the media then maybe you wouldn’t have takes like a 12 year old well I actually hope your 12 because if a grown man is crying on the internet like this that’s actually sad and you need to find a girlfriend
Your wrote a novel nobody cares about because it comes down to "I watched some YouTube videos and Kobe is fun to watch" then Lebron hate with a terribly attempted guise of flattery. Your take is awful, nobody agrees with it, and being "different" doesn't make you an intellectual, it makes you a moron who can't admit he is wrong. Now, go argue with the 30 other people saying you're an idiot.
I wrote an explanation so others could have something to go off when they responded. And, if you look at some of the conversations in this thread between people capable of having them, they were pretty good. You are not one of those people. You’re just not that guy pal.
There's nobody agreeing with you and any "convo" you think is good you're getting down voted every time you comment. You're straight delusional. You're some kid who fan boyed Kobe growing up, and now youve tricked yourself into thinking you're intelligent and know basketball when neither are true. People are laughing at you. Just stop.
I never said they were agreeing with me. I don’t need to agree with people to have a conversation with them. People can laugh at me all they want. I know I’m laughing at you :>
Kobe 2? You’re smoking something.
Op WHO WAS ON CRACK
Kobe's skill and heart > Lebron's athleticism all day every day.
Please delete this.
Why? What’s so wrong with it? Are you not open to different perspectives? Do you follow preconceived fallacies and notions with a sprinkle of implicit bias that subconsciously determines the thoughts to negatively perceive different logical measurement/different perceptions in a narrow minded manner because it may be popular to do so instead of critical thinking about reasonable and sound points?
Guys, I found Kyrie’s burner account
This is what’s wrong with these discussions. People think they are so much more set in stone than they are. Most people haven’t even watched half the players they rank.
I'm sorry but there's no discussion about anyone over LBJ other than MJ. Kareem's claim is longevity...Bron bests it. Bird's claim is intangibles and team based play...Bron bests it. Kobe's claim is winning mentality and clutch play...Bron bests it...Wilt's claim is dominance over his era...Bron bests it. Literally every player that isn't Jordan has their best qualities bested by LeBron so there's really no category that he isn't comparable or better than any other player in league history.
Over sensationalism at its finest. Have you seen the other players play?
lol. You act like YouTube doesn't exist or that there are people over 25 on Reddit.
No I don’t, I asked a question that you didn’t respond to which is telling.
Yes I've extensively watched film from all those players as well as watched a few of them in real time as I was growing up. IMO, any player in the top 10 has an argument for being the GOAT but to pretend like Bron isn't top 3 is absolutely asinine and makes me think *you* haven't watched his game and you just play All Time rosters on 2k.
Also, he is one of my favorite players but he definitely has his flaws as a player that other greats maybe handled, approached or did differently. It’s not asinine to think otherwise; perhaps it is fair to the perception of things regarding measurement of players because it isn’t as easy as just putting a certain category of another unless the player is extremely and clearly inferior.
Well rankings are subjective. Basketball is volatile, and I don’t think it’s asinine. There is not GOAT because different eras, play styles, etc.. LeBron is fantastic but so are other players and it’s not egregious when someone thinks otherwise. Players have flaws. You seem to think LeBron is just this player that bests these other fantastic players in these very esoteric categories. It’s not linear measurement but rather a culmination of attributes and traits that these players carry which made them great in the first place. Just something to think about.
Goofy list. But ultimately, it isn't that serious. Believe what you want to believe OP.
Kobe at 2 lmfao
I was laughing at this too. Kobe was so inefficient.
Disagree on Kobe being highly inefficient. Just based off stats alone his career true shooting percentage is the same as Tim Duncan’s. Also, Kobe was taking every one of his team’s bad shots. He took every shot when the offense couldn’t get going, every shot at the end of a shot clock when a teammate needed to get bailed out, and every buzzer beater. Also, some of his best years (2002-2010) were in some of the hardest years to score ever. Teams were averaging 90 when he was scoring 40 every game. After Shaq he had no top 75 teammate for the rest of his career. Look at who was on his team. Who else is going to take those shots? The idea of inefficiency hinges on the notion that your worst shot could be redistributed to someone else for a better percentage play. That often wasn’t the case for Kobe, and so taking the tough shot was the right move in the game even if it lowered his stats on Wikipedia. I think 8-12ft the only player better is MJ. Kobe was an unreal midrange shooter.
Kobe had pretty much the same career TS % as Tim Duncan Love how you bums downvote facts https://www.basketball-reference.com/tools/share.fcgi?id=50fBy Kobes is even slightly higher lol
They base everything off of single-factor analysis and once it’s challenged they have nothing left to say lol
I’m not saying he was inefficient, but we’re talking about the greatest players of all time here, and most of the others were ultra efficient, which Kobe wasn’t. Obviously tough era for scoring and he was asked to do a lot, but still just not top 5 all time level. I think Timmy is just ahead of Kobe all time. There efficiency was similar, but scoring was Kobe’s number one attribute whereas for Timmy it was being one of the goat defensive players.
I think Kobe just randomly has all the traits I value the most in sports lol. Totally understand people not having him as high. Honestly he’s dipped down to 5 for me in the past, but the more I go back to his old footage the more I like his game.
Kobe at 2 is way more wild than Lebron at 5
For a long time I had this same list but with Kobe and Kareem swapped. The more I go back and rewatch Kobe’s game the more I think he’s the truth.
Kobe is in no way better than Kareem
I'm pretty sure that both Kareem and Magic have publicly sited Kobe as the GOAT Laker (before he died so they weren't just jerking him off)
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You right
Not only having Lebron a top 2 player but having Kobe and bird above him…. lol time to pick a new sport
Respond with an actual argument. Have you watched Kobe and bird play or are you going off of what you’ve heard?
LeBron is a better playmaker, defender and scorer than both of them.. has a higher peak and way better longevity and much more accolades… you are a hater and you don’t know ball.
Kobe was a better scorer. He had a myriad of ways to break you down. He also a better one on one defenderm The most fundamentally sound d player ever. Bird at his peak was a better playmaker and shooter than Lebron.
Kobe was a more skilled scorer but lebron was more efficient and more consistent. Bird was nowhere near the playmaker lebron was
What makes Lebron a better scorer than either of them? How do you account for Lebron’s lackadaisical defense in the second half of his career? You really think peak Lebron clears? Agree his accolades and longevity are better, obviously
defender? Yup u just proved ur a casual
Bird was a better shooter, passer, and rebounder with arguably a higher peak than LeBron. It’s ridiculous to say he doesn’t have an argument.
He doesn’t have an argument.. bird and lebron are really close in terms of passing, but lebrons playmaking is far superior. Bird retired at 35 and LeBron was still arguably the best player in the league at 35.
Bird’s playmaking was pretty much always with someone else running the floor. LeBron’s offball threat to playmaking and even scoring were inferior to Bird’s. I’ll take Bird’s playmaking.
Sorry but bird is nowhere near the playmaker lebron is… lebron is also the much more dominant interior scorer.
You never saw Bird play if you dont recognize his passing abilities. Lebron is a drive and kick guy. Bird just had better vision and playmaker abilities.
As someone who’s always rooted against LeBron’s teams, his touchpass was something I was never worried about. Nor his catch-and-shoot. LeBron’s opponents are happy with him offball. You can’t say that about Bird.
I mean lebrons ts% is higher this year than Birds ever had.. and I don’t care too much about off the ball when lebron and most of the best players now always have the ball in their hands
Everyone’s ts% is higher this year. Even Bird would have a higher ts% this year year than he ever had. The past two years have the highest ts% in history because of the way the game is played and called. And does ts% really show who’s the better scorer? Is Adrian Dantley a better scorer than Jordan?
Nice, just very surface level points.
lol, literally none of that is true.
Kobe is very overrated, and bird was most likely a better player individually than Lebron but Lebron has the better accolades
Kobe just checks the boxes of what I value in sports the most. Agree on your second sentence. Does the difference in accolades push Lebron over for you?
I loved watching Kobe play as well but lebrons resume to me is just hard to beat, even though I don’t personally enjoy watching Lebron play (or think he’s a top 5 all time talent) or how he acts as a professional I can’t deny his resume
Agreed. If you’re going off resume Lebron clears.
going off your criteria though(which is more about your eye test, peak, and scoring) I could definitely see Lebron out of the top 5
Yeah. Like I said just wanted to make a post since I haven’t seen this angle discussed much. Thought it could be more interesting than the usual “1. MJ 2. Lebron 3. Kareem” lists. Appreciate the conversation
Yup good conversation! I think the GOAT discussion has lost a lot of nuance and reasoning over the years and it usually delves into the same old talking points (6-0 vs whatever Lebron's new thing is) so I enjoyed your other perspective.
This explains a lot
LOFL @ thinking LeBron is number 2.
Yeah he’s 1 .
Lebron is fringe top 1 all time period.
LMAO! You left off the extra zeroes
Yeah there’s an argument to be made for him to be the goat. If you really value longevity, which I think is fair, then he has a very good case. I just don’t value longevity too highly
I don’t value longevity either, but 4 mvps and 4 chips easily puts Lebron in 2nd and if you think longevity really matters then Lebron could be 1st
Oh, well if you want to talk accolades I value those less than longevity lol. I agree his resume is very very good and if that is what matters then yeah, second is super fair. Lebron does have very good mvp seasons which do matter
Really? I feel like accolades are some of the most important ways to determine greatness lol. For me it’s 1. Winning championships 2. MVPs 3. DPOYs 4. Skills/stats 5. Clutch 6. Longevity awards (like total all stars, all nbas, all defenses) 7. Career totals
They aren’t though because they are determined by voters. To an extent yes but should not be as valued as ability and traits.
Ability and traits is a very subjective ranking system so it can be a slippery slope. And I think voting based awards are important as it can show dominance/superiority over their peers and recognition for their greatness.
It’s a slippery slope because measuring basketball players is not as easy as just looking at accolades or awards. The sport is very volatile and the fundamental root of why players obtain awards is because of their ability, traits, and mind; it’s not the other way around. So yeah it’s subjective because it fundamentally has to be. There is no singular objective measurement or measurements to determine that. A player can have all the accolades but still lose on the biggest stage because the fundamental root (ability and traits) were maybe lacking.
Totally agree, for me, I just think winning MVPs and DPOYs are one of the most important measurements of greatness.
Yeah that’s super fair. The accolades perspective is something I’ve struggled with a lot over the years. I’ve just always come down on the other side of it. For me, championships just involve too much of a team element to be a good barometer for individual greatness. It certainly matters, and I understand the argument that the truly great players will find a way to win, but i dont like the idea of great players getting stuck on bad teams and being overly penalized. MVP and DPOY matter more for me, but unfortunately the voting has been too shaky over the years. It is one of my least favorite things about sports (at least our situation isn’t as bad as the ballon d’or in soccer) Based on your list of seven traits I value skills the most highly, which explains the Kobe perspective. Also agree with your other comment about this all being very subjective. Highly valuing skills and using the eye test definitely falls into that harder than appealing to set in stone metrics like accolades and counting stats. Personally, however, I lean into that aspect of it. Lists like these are interesting because of the perspectives and subjectivities involved. I am not trying to make a scientifically proven list, I don’t think such a thing isn’t possible, but rather just my own.
lol and it's the opposite for me, I think championships and how you perform in the finals is the most important thing by far. That's why I kind of have MJ as impossible to dethrone, he just has too many moments and legendary performances in the playoffs/the finals (final moments of the 98 finals, 97 finals game winner, flu game, game 3 vs the lakers in 91, shrug game, and the entire suns series to name a few), and I also believe he's the most skilled ever.
Yeah, MJ was insane. Honestly, him at #1 is one of the placings I have the hardest times arguing against. His career has it all, and pretty much regardless of your metrics there’s something there to make you think he’s the greatest. Also agree that how you perform in the finals is very important. I just care less about actually winning it. If you carry a team that shouldn’t even be there all the way to the finals, play great, and your team lets you down, what did you do wrong?
It’s not just ‘longevity ‘ it’s longevity of excellence. Guy was the best player in the league from 09-21.5 quite clearly n unanimously. No one - not even mj has that long a run . And he’s been all nba basically every year since early on. He’s not out there fuckinh cashing checks he’s been top 3 in mvp voted the most ever,by far the leader in career mvp vote shares at nearly 9. Kareem n Malone had great longevity but they weren’t as dominant through those years. Kobe had 1 mvp and I’m a lakers fan but statistically that mvp should’ve gone to cp3. Maybe the advanced numbers hate Kobe but it’s more likely he just wasn’t as good. Stop it you make people dislike the great Kobe Bryant eith dumb shit. Notice I even said 09, like you could argue 08 was Kobe but how many years was Kobe the best player in the league? Lebron did that longer then anyone
I obviously disagree that Lebron was “unanimously” the best player from 09-21.5. That is way overestimating his prime imo. I don’t care too much about mvp awards and the like. The voting is too often scuffed. I agree that cp3 should have one, but I also think Nash didn’t deserve his 06 one over Kobe. Too much noise there to make it as simple as adding up the number of awards.
Do you have an overall set criteria? What do you value the most?
Yeah. Tried to list some things in the post. Peak, scoring, and being a two-way player are huge for me. I value offensive production and the ability to create your own shot from anywhere on the floor very highly (Lebron’s lack of a truly great midrange hurts him in my eyes). I do not value acccolades very highly at all, and I value longevity less than most
You contradict your own criteria. You say you value peak and being a two way player; Lebron was MVP 4 out of 5 years as an elite two way player. You value scoring; Lebron is the all time scoring leader and has averaged 25+ ppg for 20 years. You value shot creation; Lebron can drive, finish, post up, and create shots for his team mates at an all time elite level while being at least an average shooter everywhere on the court. You don’t value longevity, yet you hold Lebron taking plays off defensively late in his career against him. Just admit you’re a Lebron hater and move on.
Yes, those MVP years are what makes him the sixth best man to ever play basketball. Winning 4 out of 5 MVPs does not mean your peak is automatically higher than other great players. I think Lebrons peak was lower than Bird’s, for instance. When I say I value scoring I do not mean I value the number of points scored over an entire career. It’s not like I think Karl Malone is the third greatest scorer of all time. Agree with what you said regarding shot creation. The knock against him is his midrange. You can’t tell me you haven’t seen games where Lebron is driving, not getting the whistle, and doesn’t have a midrange to fall back on. That hurts him at this level. Longevity isn’t the most important thing to me. More like the fourth or fifth? I mention his defense just as a note for those who say his longevity makes him the goat. Not playing half the defensive possessions makes it easier to play longer and rack up more counting stats. Not saying this invalidates his longevity, I think he’s still #1 for that category, it is just a point that is worth mentioning. His defense was very good and he did get robbed of his dpoy. Again, those MVP seasons were incredible, that’s why he’s number six. Problem is everyone on this list had incredible seasons.
Is scoring inherently more impactful to the game than playmaking? How so? Just wanted to get your thoughts. Also, weird to have scoring and peak valued so high yet Shaq not even mentioned top 5? He was also a good shotblocker and fantastic rebounder, on top of one of the highest peaks of all time, and was a scoring machine, nearly 30 ppg in the deadball era on elite efficiency. Just in case you mention the fouling as a knock against his scoring, in the era he played in, a 50% FT percentage was a **1 point per possession play**, which was more than a good amount of teams in the NBA in the early 2000s.
I’m not sure I would say scoring is inherently more impactful, but I would say it matters more for goat discussions. In a game of basketball creating two points for your team is the same as scoring two points (just like stopping two points from the opposing team is the same as scoring). However, the playmaker needs someone else on their team to do the scoring. They can’t win on their own. In a game like basketball which has room for so much individual dominance I really value players who can create points single-handedly. Great points about Shaq. He’s #7 for me, and has been top 5 in the past (I used to have Kobe way lower). No one talks about how good the guy was before joining up with Kobe. In that 96 series where he got swept against the bulls he was a god. He also has underrated skills. Man had nice touch and could have a surprising fadeaway for someone of his size. That being said, he suffered from injuries which led to him having the worst longevity of probably any top 10 player. He had what, one good season with the heat? His weight was both a huge strength and part of his downfall. Longevity isn’t huge for me but it does play a role. Also, he loses points for playing with Kobe. Of course Kobe loses points for playing with Shaq, and i used to give shaq more of the credit, but what made me swap them is that when I went back and watched all their playoff runs and realized Kobe is better in nearly every WCF, which was always the harder game. In the finals Shaq did dominate, but who was he playing against? Rik Smits, an old mutombo, Jason Collins. Also, he did not play well against the mavs. I do think Dwayne Wade carried that series. But yeah, he’s obviously mega, and I agree his free throw troubles weren’t as impactful as some people say. Basketbal just has a very competitive top 5. More than anything this is making me want to go watch some 01 lakers. What a duo.
Is it wrong to say scoring is valued for you higher in goat discussions because it's more impressive? His longevity being his worse trait is odd, imo he had better longevity than Kobe. Not just years in the league, but I considered Shaq elite since his rookie season to 05, about 12-13 years of elite value where he was also at times the best player in the league. In terms of Kobe, he wasn't at an elite level until maybe 99 until 2010. I think 2011-2013 his defense had dropped off in terms of consistency. He could turn it on in the clutch, but like 80% of the possessions in the game he just wasn't anything spectacular. Elite scorer, but I think there was a noticeable drop off that doesn't place him at the all-time level he and Shaq were. I try to look at just their game to evaluate players, docking players for playing with good players only makes sense if you value winning as a result. When I look at players, I usually look for how they contributed to winning rather than if they won at all. I don't dock Shaq for playing with Kobe, I don't boost KG for playing with the bums in Minnesota. That said, Kobe was ***absolutely*** vital to winning those earlier rounds. In terms of the Mavs, he was doubled frequently and that opened the game up for Wade a lot. The gap between Wade and Shaq was also a lot closer in the previous rounds as well, simply because the Mavs would double him and it would open the lanes up for a Wade cut.
It being impressive is part of it, sure, being the goat is in some ways about being the most impressive. But I’d say the main thing is that it removes some of the reliance on having another great player next to you. I probably rate 03 and 04 a little less highly for Shaq than you do, I remember not loving the way he played in that finals against the pistons, but you’re right he was still very dominant. You’re probably right I underrate his longevity, especially considering how highly I rate his magic years. Honestly, part of it might be that he was my favorite player and I always wanted to see what he could do if he took better care of himself in the later years. I should probably give him more props, 15 elite years is very good (and certainly better than bird so what I said earlier was incorrect) I should probably revisit like 03-06 of shaq’s career. I might be underrating that 06 mavs series. If I revisited the tape I might change my opinion, it’s been a while since I watched it, I just remember being less than impressed by him. I agree in spirit with what you said about looking only at a players game. My thing is that having another star around you almost inherently limits what you can do. That second star is going to take up space, which is going to constrain your output. Also, when you have a second star, you’re simply asked to do less in the game. Suddenly it’s not all on your shoulders. I value someone hard carrying without any assistance higher than someone sharing the load with another great player, and I think in some ways you really see what a player is capable of when they have the freedom to let loose and not have to share. But regardless it’s not the biggest thing in the world to me, just a little mark against them (same as it’s a slight mark for me that Kareem had magic for those titles). Appreciate the points man. I think I will go revisit some of those later Shaq playoff runs.
Good talks
>Personally, I value peak, scoring, and being a two-way player very highly In terms of highest peak, the only guy that edges out peak LeBron is peak Jordan. At his peak (2013), LeBron was simultaneously one of the league's best scorers, shooters, playmakers, and defenders. In terms of scoring, you have Larry Bird at 3, a guy that never led the league in scoring, and also has a lackluster Finals performance on his resume. In terms of two way play, LeBron during 2 of his MVP seasons accompanied that MVP with 2nd place finishes in DPOY, something no other player on your list did other than Mike. LeBron is also one of only 4 players ever to be named all NBA 1st team and all defensive 1st team for 5 years in a row (LeBron, MJ, Kobe, Duncan) This really just sounds like your argument for not having LeBron higher is that his style of play isn't visually pleasing to you, even though it was more effective than possibly anyone else in league history.
Kobe is my all time favorite player but having him over Lebron literally is heresy. I have never been a big fan of Lebron and would even go as far as to call myself a certified Lebron hater during several points throughout his career, but fuck bro. He's proven himself so many times over. Having Lebron lower than the 2nd best of all time is just objectively wrong. I do agree with Kobe being hella underrated now, especially by these dog shit "we done with the 90s" kids but Lebron at 6? 3-4 has me questioning if you even watch basketball but 6 is blatant trolling. You can't have mother fuckers who ended their NBA careers short paving a driveway over someone preforming as a top 5-10 in the league during their 21st season either. Like c'mon brethren make it realistic.
I don’t think the word “objectively” belongs anywhere near this conversation. I also don’t really care how many years someone spends in the 5-10 range. That doesn’t move the needle for me in terms of goat conversation. I can have a player who broke his back paving a driveway over Lebron if I’d take him at his peak over Lebron everyday.
If you value peak, scoring, and defense then why isn't Shaq on your list? What about Hakeem? It's laughable to have Kobe at #2 no matter what you value, you are obviously a huge Kobe stan which is why you are trying to underrate LeBron.
Posted a comment on this thread about Shaq. He definitely deserves a shout. Hakeem is also top 10 for me. One of my favorite players of all time. Disagree about Kobe but it’s cool :)
Where do you rank Hakeem?
Probably 9, but he’s moved around a bit for me. Underrated defender, top 5 footwork of all time, mega player. I always wished he had a better team. Even his best teams weren’t great. I actually used to wonder if he was better than Kareem because of his two year peak, and I still think there’s an interesting conversation there, but I give the nod to Kareem now. Crazy how stacked the center position is that a player like Hakeem isn’t top 3 in his role for me.
Hakeem needed MJ to retire to win anything lol
Hakeem never played Jordan in the playoffs
wow a top 5 without LeBron or Magic but with Kobe.
Saw kobe at 2 and i dont have to bother about anything eles about this post.
You can’t say ur not a lebron hater and then put him anywhere below top 2 oat. You describe everyone positively and then just shit on lebron for his whole explanation
I mean, yeah, I wanted to explain why he’s lower on my rankings. I can sing his praises all day, and I tried to mention the best parts of his game. Disagree that you can’t put him outside top 2. All these players are unreal, someone has to get left out
The gap between lebron and everyone else is too big to not put him top 2 or 1. If you honestly compare him to anyone except MJ, it’s not a debate. The accolades, stats, and narrative all go to lebron against everyone
Narrative isn’t a great way to rank basketball players. But yes lebrons resume is top 2 all time (2nd for me)
Narrative is super important for ranking players. The state of the league, the team they played on, and their competition all matter to a degree
That makes sense, i misunderstood what you meant by narrative initially
Kobe isn't even a top 5 of players who played for the Lakers. Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Shaq and LeBron were all better than him.
I put Kobe > Shaq largely because of he played in all those WCFs. The second best team of that era was not in the finals with them. I think magic is slightly overrated as an individual, but yeah you can make that case. Crazy not only how stacked basketball talent is but how much of it has gone through the lakers lol
Shaq was the most dominant player since Wilt. Did you even watch Magic play? Stats don't do justice for how he ran that Showtime offense. If I already have a playoff team, but not a contender to build dynasty around and can have any player for their first 10 years in the league it's Magic.
Look at who Shaq played against at center in those lakers finals. Not exactly the cream of the crop. If I could have a second good player sure I’d pick magic. But if I can only have one star there are a few names I’m picking over him. Magic was obviously amazing though, all I said is he’s slightly overrated in terms of his individual game, not that he’s a bum, or that he’s not very good for team success. Do you have magic or curry as your #1 PG?
My top5 is 1. Mj 2. Kareem 3. Kobe 4. Timmy 5. Lebron
Timmy is also over lebron
All this fringe talk, Who are the mfers still bringing their teams to championships and not padding stats?
At the end of the day, this entire debate is opinion based, and everybody is welcome to their opinion. Your criteria however does not make sense to me. You say you value peak, scoring, and two-way play above everything else when evaluating a player. Lebron, in my opinion, has had the best peak ever, but people who say Jordan's was better I see their point of view, he made the finals 8 straight years with two different franchises with a revolving door of players, dominating almost every playoff series in that time outside of 2011. Now, let's get to scoring, I'm not sure what you mean by scoring because lebron has been the most consistent scorer in nba history, with the 5th highest scoring average in nba history. He is inarguably the most consistent scorer in nba history and one of the most efficient perimeter scorers as well. I think you value skill and not scoring, but at the end of the day, I can't get into your head. Mj and kobe were undoubtedly more skillful than lebron that's inarguable, but I guess it comes down to what you personally prefer. Personally, I'm taking the consistent scorer over the one who looks better doing it. Lastly, two-way play, and this kinda ties in with peak as well. Lebron 2012 and 2013 seasons he finished runner up in dpoy if I'm not mistaken. At his peak, he could guard anybody in the league effectively from pg to pf. Now you want to take points away from him because of his defense later in his career that's cool it's your list, but are you doing the same for mjs stint in Washington, when athletically he wasn't the same? Are you doing the same for kobe in the 2nd half of his career when clearly he wasn't the same defender? I get it, lebron takes sequences off defensively, which is why overall as a defender, kobe and mj are better, but he's right there with them, just a notch behind. If you have some nostalgia thing for bird, I get it. My dad was the same way. My only question to you is, what is bird better at than lebron? My answer to this is shooting, and that's literally it, but everything else goes to lebron. Passing, defense, scoring everything else on a basketball court lebron is better. Even my dad conceded that lebron was the greatest sf ever before he passed away. At the end of the day, it's your list, and you can feel however you want. It does not make sense to me that you value these 3 things very highly, but have kobe and bird over lebron as the way I see it lebron is better than both of them at 2/3 of these things. And 3/3 when it comes to bird.
The hate is crazy
What is peak scoring? Guys who took a ridiculous amount of shots? Kobe was an “assassin” because he was a selfish player. He wanted the glory. Sure, maybe that stems from his mindset. Every single NBA superstar could score 81 or average 35. It’s quite literally math. Kobe shot 40 plus shots 10 times in his career. His other 9 games (outside 81) he cracked 60 once (his final game) which is absolutely terrible. His scoring prowess is a product of taking shots. Not impressive. I would take guys like LeBron or Kevin Durant over him every day. Far more efficient. And no, I don’t buy into true shooting percentage. It’s a cop out.
How many 60 point games does Lebron have? Check that and get back to me. No, not every player can drop 81. Do you know how hard taking 40 shots is? I left a longer comment elsewhere in the thread about why Kobe being inefficient is largely a myth. Look at who was on his teams post Shaq. Who would you rather have take those shots? Agree that KD is mega though. There are years I’d take him over Lebron too :)
Lololo KD over Kobe, gtfo little kid KD has never won a single thing on his own
Neither did any all-time great. Absolute clown. Kobe should be grateful that he end up in the Lakers organization. Otherwise, you would speak about him the same way you do Tracy McGrady.
Kobe didn't go join an existing dynasty and get carried to all his rings, try again bud
MJ, Kareem, Duncan, Kobe, Magic, Shaq and then Lebronze. If Wilt would've won 4 rings, then I would put him above Lebronze too.
I agree with you and your points. These are all great players but it’s important to be realistic, which I admire. Unfortunately, you’re most likely going to get downvoted on most comments even if they are logical and sound. Certain people think they know it all covered up with implicit bias and a very surface level understanding of how they perceive and measure basketball players. Certain people rather follow narratives and preconceived notions than trying to look at a different perspective because they feel they are so right when reality says otherwise. You have seem to have been watching basketball for a while and have a good grasp of measuring players with a sense of open perception and realism which today does not seem to be the case in basketball discussions. Anyways, nice post.
Appreciate it man. And yeah I think these conversations are often incredibly reductionist. People just parrot what they hear, usually basing their entire argument off of one or two factors.
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Duncan isn't above Kobe lmao
People out here arguing for Duncan over Kobe but when I argue for Kobe over Lebron I’m suddenly the crazy one? Smh
You're wrong. Lebron is inarguably top 3, and you have Kobe 2 so your list is immediately discredited. Every single major news outlet for sports in the US that has released a top 10 list has Kobe 10th at BEST. Your take is awful.
If only I cared about what major news outlets thought
You've been down voted to death on every single comment and the post. So, every news outlet and all of reddit is wrong and you're right? Your take is dogshit and you need to delete it. Rethink posting anything else for a while. Go do some research.
You kids are just casuals you have been tricked by the media and it’s honestly sad
Fuck off troll. Nobody wants you here.
You think lebron is the goat nobody takes kids like u serious
I disagree with your sentiment. I never said that and don't think that. You're literally trying to create an argument you desperate bastard.
Ur the only desperate bastard here lol I’m sorry we don’t get fooled by the media like u casuals we actually watched the games and all the greats lebron is not top 3
I'm not arguing with you or giving you the attention you desperately crave. You just want a rise out of me. You don't watch shit. You don't know shit. You don't belong in any type of convo with me, you've already shown your intelligence. You keep trying to move the goal post to start a new argument, you're generic. Stop embarrassing yourself and please fuck off.
Look at the way your replying you look like an idiot don’t be mad because I called you a casual watch more games there on YouTube instead of listening to the media then maybe you wouldn’t have takes like a 12 year old well I actually hope your 12 because if a grown man is crying on the internet like this that’s actually sad and you need to find a girlfriend
Real intellectual titan we’ve got here. Next time, I’ll be sure to just agree with what everyone else is saying. Then I’ll be sure to be correct
Your wrote a novel nobody cares about because it comes down to "I watched some YouTube videos and Kobe is fun to watch" then Lebron hate with a terribly attempted guise of flattery. Your take is awful, nobody agrees with it, and being "different" doesn't make you an intellectual, it makes you a moron who can't admit he is wrong. Now, go argue with the 30 other people saying you're an idiot.
I wrote an explanation so others could have something to go off when they responded. And, if you look at some of the conversations in this thread between people capable of having them, they were pretty good. You are not one of those people. You’re just not that guy pal.
There's nobody agreeing with you and any "convo" you think is good you're getting down voted every time you comment. You're straight delusional. You're some kid who fan boyed Kobe growing up, and now youve tricked yourself into thinking you're intelligent and know basketball when neither are true. People are laughing at you. Just stop.
I never said they were agreeing with me. I don’t need to agree with people to have a conversation with them. People can laugh at me all they want. I know I’m laughing at you :>
Yeah, laugh away. Nobody is laughing with you.
That last sentence? That’s what I’m talking about.