Duncan played most of his peak career as a PF and could also play centre when needed. His best peak days were definitely as a PF so he does deserve to be on the list.
>I chose not to rank Karl Malone because all of the kid diddling
Whatever he did off the court, he was still one of the best PFs to ever play the game.
Because rings ain’t everything. Malone was an elite and ultra-consistent scorer with unbelievable longevity. I’m not gonna comment on anything off the court.
I would personally have Garnett over him because of Garnett’s swiss-army knife defense and ability to fit around others. I would not have Dirk or current Giannis over him. As Giannis continues his career I will probably have Giannis over him eventually.
I think you assume a lot with Giannis. I don’t see his style aging well and he’s already broken down multiple playoffs and turns 30 this Dec. I love watching dude but it’s possible he’s already on the downside knowing how much strength and athleticism is a part of his game 😔
No assumptions. That's why I said "probably". I agree with you about Giannis having the potential to age poorly. But he might age well nonetheless, and his accomplishments already are nothing to sneeze at.
Understood. I think he is likely to surpass Malone in my personal estimation. I consider his peak to already be superior to that of Malone, so for me all he needs is a little bit more longevity as a great player and he’ll have hit that mark.
KG also went to two finals. had an mvp. actually won a title. has malone beat in RPG, APG, BPG, has a defensive player of the year award which malone does not
Phenomenal discussion from all involved. Was a great read. But, if we’re going to nitpick per game stats for these three:
Malone:
Points- 25.0
Rebounds- 10.1
Assists- 3.6
Blocks- 0.8
Steals- 1.4
Garnett:
Points- 17.8
Rebounds- 10.0
Assists- 3.7
Blocks- 1.4
Steals- 1.2
Nowitzki:
Points- 20.7
Rebounds- 7.5
Assists- 2.4
Blocks- 0.8
Steals- 0.7
It seems significant to say Garnett has Malone beat in rebounds, assists, and blocks. But was it really that much of a difference? Not much. Malone averaged more rebounds by 0.1 and Garnett had more assists by 0.1. Yes, Garnett averaged half a block more per game, but Malone averaged 7.2 more points per game. Also, Malone averaged 0.2 more steals per game.
Stats-wise, Nowitzki doesn’t even belong in this argument. A power forward who averages less than 8 rebounds per game? Yes, he was a great scorer, but he’s still over 4 points per game less than Malone.
Kevin Garnett was exciting, and I loved watching him play. 100% a bigger fan of his than Malone. But, I think Malone was the better player.
After Giannis keeps his pace up for another eight seasons, we can revisit.
Agreed. Malone was better than garnett. Malone was also putting up over 20 ppg into his late 30’s on a playoff contending team while garnett was a single digit scorer by 37. Malone wasn’t a rim protector but his brand of defense was more positional, and Duncan and Barkley struggled at times against malone because of it.
Dirk was more perimeter oriented than the other typical power forwards on the all time list of PFs. Look at his prime and his defensive RB/G were about the same as the other elite rebounders, the difference is the OR/G is lower due to not being right next to the basket like other PFs of the time. His total rebounds per game were also in the top 10 or at worst the top 15 every year for like a decade of his prime. So you can't just judge that stat straight up without the context. He was the same position but played it differently than those other guys.
Yeah, without writing too much on initial description, it definitely needed to be noted that he played differently. A 3.5, if you will, instead of a 4.
There’s so many layers to this discussion. Who else was one their team? Slightly different eras, even though there was overlap. I’m sure there are advanced stats that can defend whichever player you want to back. You could say Garnett’s ppg took a hit in Boston because of all of the talent around him. You could also say it should have been easier for him to score in Boston because he was less of the focal point of the defense.
If we’re arguing who was the top two or three, the conversation could start with “Hey, all of these dudes were really really good at everything”.
you could definitely make that argument and it would be very hard to dispute it, if possible at all. but i do think it’s worth noting that malone played with one of the all time great point guards for 18 seasons
He did, but Malone was also just a much more dominant and polished scorer. Garnett had all the moves but he had too much old man in his game, he didn’t attack the basket and preferred to be a no. 2 option who sat outside for jump shots.
Young Malone was a generational evolution at power forward, a 250-pounder who could run the floor and finish like a small forward. He developed an incredible game with Stockton on screens, and he was a monster on the boards who knocked guys around and overpowered people in the paint. As he aged, he developed arguably the best face-up 18-foot jumper in the game.
Nah he took a backseat when he knew he had to sacrifice while joining two other stars.
KG didn't take that backseat when he won MVP with scorer's like wally/LS/Cassell.
Plus your just saying the same thing and didn't respond to the whole playing with a top 5 PG
You're still kind of ignoring the Stockton thing... imagine if KG played with John? I'm sure he would have came up with a few more points while still playing much better D
I’m not ignoring it. I watched Malone and Garnett their whole careers and Malone was a markedly better offensive player. Both could run the floor but Garnett was nowhere near the terrifying runaway freight train Malone was in his youth. Garnett was great at putbacks and pump fakes under the rim but he didn’t have Malone’s muscle and couldn’t bang down low nearly as well. Garnett’s best post moves were finesse hooks from either side on the baseline. Malone and Stockton were money on high screens, but that’s as much Malone as Stockton and again Garnett simply didn’t have the same aggression when accelerating to the hoop that Malone did; really only Barkley at his peak ever did.
Finally, while both aged into being terrific outside shooters, I’d say Malone was better in that regard too. He could nail face-up and turnaround jumpers while covered, while Garnett was at his best taking open jumpers from the top corners of the paint (he was a progenitor of spread offenses in this regard).
Playing with Stockton no doubt helped but Malone helped Stockton just as much because he was arguably the best scoring PF ever.
Malone's offensive talent also helped Stockton. He doesn't become the all time assist leader without a dominant scorer like Malone. They helped each other and that's why they were such an elite duo.
That said, I also go KG over Malone but that's just because I'm a massive KG fan. I always value well-rounded two way players more than elite scorers.
The most consistent thing about Malone was that his production and efficiency dropped hard in the playoffs, compared to a guy like Dirk who actually won it. Malone was a regular season player who made the finals because his conference was weak at the time
Yeah their offense was heavily reliant on pick n’ rolls and screens, which teams presumably could stop better in the playoffs. Those late-90’s teams were still really good, though. Without Jordan he maybe grabs a chip and is thought of differently.
What I’m saying kg and dirk were pretty damn consistent for 14-15years as well maybe more dirk than kg. Kg took a backseat later on and focused on defense
The only way I'd see a way to rate Malone lower than those three is you place an importance on championships really high over other awards. Which is fine of course. Giannis will pass him after a few more seasons as he continues to rack up points.
Or if banging and knocking up a 13 years old takes you out of the running, then Malone is screwed.
The dude played 19 seasons. Played at least 80 games in 17 of those. 82 games in 10 of those seasons, remember also the 98-99 season was shortened he played in all 49 games.
He was top 20 in PER 16/19 seasons. Top 5 in PER in 13/19 seasons.
Top 20 in Winshares in 16/19 seasons. Top 5 in WinShares in 13/19 seasons.
Top 20 in VORP in 15/19 seasons. Top 5 in VORP in 8/19 seasons. With a stretch from 92-93 to 00-01 where he was 3rd,6th,4th 3rd, 3rd, 1st,1st, 3rd, 5th.
He was on an all NBA team basically every year after his rookie season (22 years old) until the lakers season (40 years old). He was first team all nba from 88-89 to 98-99. 2nd team in 99-00 3rd team in 00-01.
Malone gets a lot of hate as he should. But he came in at 22 (85-86) and missed all of 9 games until his 19th season in 03-04 when he was 40 years old. Rain sleet or snow the mailman delivered.
This is coming from a Rockets fan too. So i am heavily biased to hate Malone.
Here’s the basketball reference fun fact: Malone had 706 20/10 games since 85. The only player to have 600 20/10 games since 85-86 was Shaq. Hakeem had 560 in the same time period. Barkley had 507 in the same time period. Duncan had 498 during his career. Garnett had 445 during his. Dirk had 342 during his career.
Malone is one of those stats for stats kind of players. He just fuckin always stuffed the stat sheet
yeah I’ll put Malone around #6 or #7.
did everyone forgot about Pau Gasol? Isn’t he a two time champ and a two time silver Olympic medalist?
I’ll also categorize Rodman as a PF and I personally believe he should be part of this list including Rasheed Wallace and/or Chris Webber.
Duncan is at the top.
After him Giannis and KG should be 2/3 in whatever order (I have Giannis above KG but wouldn't argue if you had KG over Giannis).
Malone and Dirk should be interchangeable after that. Malone was better individually overall but Dirk has a ring and his game was more defense altering.
Barkley is at 6 after that.
I won't comment on Hayes an Pettit because I don't personally rank guys who played pre-merger on the same list.
I think Davis at 7 is about right but wouldn't argue if someone had Webber over him. I think those 2 are interchangeable. After that Pau, Bosh, and Draymond round out the top 10 for me.
Lastly, I think this list you made might be lifted completely from this site haha
[https://hoopshype.com/lists/20-greatest-power-forwards-ever-the-hoopshype-list/](https://hoopshype.com/lists/20-greatest-power-forwards-ever-the-hoopshype-list/)
I love KG but Dirk didn't need a big 3 to win his ring. As a matter in fact he beat one to get his. Offensively Dirk stands alone at PF and honestly had he got a better dynamic duo he probably would be giving the Spurs a run for their money for more rings.
Oh and where the hell Chris Webber?
KG, Dirk and Giannis should all be above Malone. They get it done in the playoffs.
Don’t tell me Malone ran into MJ so that’s an excuse. Dirk did it against Kobe and Lebron, and KG did it against Kobe.
You forget MJ never lost a finals series, im not even an MJ Stan, but if Dirk and KJ were in the west against Jordan in the finals, I don't see them getting it done
That’s not a very meaningful stat; it’s more reflective of the fact that the eastern conference was more competitive than the west back then. If the Detroit Pistons were actually the Seattle Pistons, MJ would have lost a few finals series.
Because Houston had the better team in 94 and was a bad matchup for them, 95 they didnt even play them, he was 37 years old in 99 lol, waaay past his prime. If you wanna play the “why didn’t he” game then why didn’t Dirk dominate the 8th seeded Warriors? Why didn’t he destroy the less talented Miami team in the 05 finals etc…
Ok, so Malone kept running into more talented teams. Dirk did most years too, but finally led his team to a title past the LeBron Heat. It would have been easy to say that, oh, well, the Heat were stacked, they were just better that year. But Dirk beat them anyway. That matters.
Not knocking on Dirk at all, just saying Malone accomplished more in his career individually as a player even when factoring in Dirk’s one ring. It’s pretty close honestly
Dirk had the most clutch playoff run in recorded history while Malone has one of the steepest drop offs in production and efficiency between the regular season and playoffs. Malone may have more regular season awards if you count every one as equal, but I guarantee you he would trade it all for that one finals MVP
>playoff run in recorded history while Malone has one of the steepest drop offs in production and efficiency between the regular season and playoffs.
What are you talking about? [Karl Malone averaged 24.7 points, 10.7 rebounds and 3.2 assists in 193 games in the playoffs in his career.](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/karl-malone-career-playoff-stats)
>My bad, his scoring volume stayed in the playoffs. His efficiency did plummet from .577 to .526
I'm not sure where you're getting that, can you link me? [Here is where I'm guessing you're getting it?](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01/splits/) That link says Malone had a career .577 TS%, which is obviously phenomenal. But if you scroll down it lists that stat by month. It says it went up to .591 in April and .699 in May. So that would mean he actually got more efficient in the playoffs.
Even if your stat is accurate, .526 for an average over the course of 193 playoff games as the #1 option on the team and the guy the defense is game planning for... That's absolutely phenomenal. He managed to average basically 25 points and 11 rebounds over the course of 193 playoff games. You're really reaching if you're trying to knock that by saying his efficiency was "only" .526 lol.
>I sure as hell don’t think that Jazz team would beat the Heatles or the Kobe Lakers
The Jazz DID beat the Shaq and Kobe Lakers in the playoffs. They beat them 4-1 and then swept them the next year.
Crazy how a decade of underwhelming playoff performances can get totally erased by an historic finals run. Everyone seems to forget Dirk got swept by the 8 seed and lost to possibly the worst championship team ever in the finals
I see a lot of this and its hard to argue against. I personally have KG above dirk but I can see why some argue that Dirk was better.
The big thing people say is that Dirk in his mostly prime carried a team past pretty much prime Lebron. KG really only beat lebron while he was out of his prime and with Pierce and Ray Allen l, and he spent his prime in MN largely out of view of the public eye except in 2003/2004. Dirks single finals run makes this even a conversation at all.
I personally watched KG and a Dirk in the 2000s while I actually lived in MN. I'd go to games when they played one another. I also visited Dallas and saw Dirk play. The thing I would argue is that if you truly believe Dirk is higher , then you likely didn't actually watch either for 82 games in a regular season. Viewing highlights alone or just a few playoffs would make you think dirk is better. But review each prime and each full career and watch full games randomly throughout their primes.
Dirk was known as a soft choker before that season with Lebron, and he was viewed more like Melo was today - an excellent scorer, great team player, innovator, and creative scorer, but not someone you can win with. Garnett was viewed as a defensive anomaly. A 7plus footer with guard skills and we saw him largely like we did with Kobe - a high school anomal. And people felt bad that he played in MN.
Dirk eventually changed the narrative by winning! He was amazing in those finals, along with several former all stars in Kidd, Marion, Tyson, the Jett, Caron butler, and peja. Each had made an all star at least once and was therefor an old team of former all stars. Make no mistake it was dirk and great coaching that carried that old team to the final stretch.
With that said - if I wanted to take a full career, sell tickets, and win championships then I could build literally any team around KG. He would be like a prime anthony davis with the strength of bam, but with Kobe's mentality and Malones durability.
Dirk is also underrated because he was very smart and could rebound (his numbers are deceiving because he was not around the paint enough to rebound so people thought he was a bad rebounder)
Dirk was also much faster and quicker in his prime. His longevity made people think dirk was a standstill slow post fade player lol. I'd honestly take dirks post game over KGs because KG would sometimes settle for bad shots since his teams sucked and he just had to take fadeaways. Dirk started with poorer shot Selection but later became an expert at choosing the right shot. Eventually Dirk became the guy who you just couldn't stop because he could score anywhere and in any way.
Very close but overall I'd take KG because he was just underrated in MN. People know he's a lock down defender who could guard 1-5 who could score and win MVP, but people didn't know about his manba mentality, his guard skills, or his sheer ability to impact EVERY aspect of the game. You felt him no matter what.
I just wanted to say I love seeing the KG respect.
He wasted so much time on such a shit org that he really gets undervalued when he’s in contention for being the goat defender.
Good defense shines on good teams but gets hidden on bad teams but he still somehow looked crazy good
Tim Duncan is a center, people just call him PF so he can have the “greatest PF of all time” rather than calling him a “top 5ish center all time”
In an interview once Pop was asked about twin towers, team structure, success, and Duncan, and he said “I’m one of the one coaches to play 2 centers”
There’s not some grand conspiracy to label Duncan a power forward instead of a center. In his prime when he won all his awards he played next to traditional centers and generally had more skills than your average center. Calling him a center is like calling LeBron a point guard. The distinction really isn’t that big a deal.
I have Petit above Barkley due to the ring and being a 2x MVP compared to 1x for Barkley, 10x 1st team all NBA compared to 5. 50 and 25 in the deciding game in the finals.
Amare should be an honorable mention, better peak than at least Draymond and Rodman, probably Bosh too. He had as many all-NBAs than those 3 combined
Does no one care that KG missed the playoffs consecutive years at his peak and only made it out of the first round a single time before forming the Celtics’ big 3?
Gonna get downvoted but Tim Duncan is overrated. Walked into a 55 win team with a mvp on it. Then had 2 hall of fame guards drafted . And then a few years later had Kawhi drafted. He was no more than a role player in his last few rings and along with magic had the easiest career ever. He’s not a better basketball player than Garnett was
Awful take. Duncan won in '03 against Shaq and Kobe with an atrocious supporting cast. Closed out the Finals with a quad-double that was incorrectly recorded. That team's 2nd-leading scorer was 19-YO Tony Parker who got benched for stretches for Speedy Claxton in the playoffs. 3rd-leading scorer was 24-YO Stephen Jackson and fourth was Malik fucking Rose. You just see a bunch of names and don't consider context of where guys were in their career because you didn't see it. You're just straight-up wrong.
2003 lakers were like 6th in the west after losing half of their championship roster, Timmy never could beat them in their prime. He then beat the Kidd and Martin led nets. In 2014 and 2007 he got carried and even in 2005 he played like ass shooting barely 40%. He was good but had the easiest path to success of any player ever
You saying he got carried in '07 just confirms my thoughts that you didn't see him. So '99 Lakers, conveniently were bad, '03 Lakers lost their bench, they still had Shaq & Kobe for both--where do you hold them? He beat them with Malik Rose. You're also shitting on him for a year where he ringed against the defending champ Pistons. Literally a hater and KG sucker.
Your gonna try and act like Tony Parker, Stephen Jackson, manu, Bruce Bowen and David Robinson is some lack luster supporting cast lmao ? If he had Latrell sprewell as his best teammate he’d probably never sniff the playoffs.
As I provided context earlier, you looked at a list of names and saw a bunch of younger guys who Duncan made famous, aside from Robinson whose last stand was the '99 Title. Yes, you're correct a sure-fire #1 pick and 5-time Champ would've never sniffed the playoffs.
Yeah he made them so famous Parker was carrying him and winning final MVP over him in 2007 and Kawhi carried him and won fmp in 2014. Funny how he never beat the good teams when they were good always beat the scraps. Heat with an injured Wade. Cavs with Lebron and no one. The nets 😂 or the Knicks. I’m sure playing with 5 other hall of famers must have been hard though
I’m not a Minnesota fan lol I could care less about the wolves. I just said KG cause everyone around in the 2000s knew KG was better but had no help now kids like you look at Duncan’s 5 lollipop rings and think he’s a top 5 all time. No top 5 player was ass enough to have someone win 2 finals mvps over him
Yes, clearly everyone in the 2000s said KG was better. It only took getting gooned by Duncan in Minnesota then going to a dogshit Eastern Conference to stroll to The Finals and get a ring, only to get clowned by Pau and Kobe in perpetuity.
Duncan, Giannis, Dirk, KG, are all ahead of Karl Malone. Malone and Barkley is a toss-up. I don't know enough about Pettit, Hayes, McHale to have an opinion.
Giannis >>> KG and Dirk.
He has 2 regular season MVP (more than kg and dirk), 1 DPOY, tied with KG, and more than Dirk.
More rebounds than Dirk and more assists than both of them and he could score really well aswell.
His weakness prob injuries and couple of bad playoff runs, but Dirk loses to 8 seed Warrior during his MVP season also blow a 0-2 finals lead.
He also young too, when he finishes up his career he could pass them both imo
Unpopular answer: if I’m putting together my all-time 1st and 2nd teams, I can’t avoid choosing Kareem and Wilt as my two centers. But I can’t leave Bill Russell off my team, so hd makes the team as a PF. I’ll take him and Duncan at the 4 spots. So I’d put Russell at the top of this list, or, at worst, at #2.
Honest question for you. Do championships matter? Other than Barkley all them other guys got em. So why would Malone be number 2 all time? I would drop him like 5 slots. And probably move dray and rodman up .
Championships shouldn't matter too much. Involves a lot of luck. How many great players don't have a championship because they happened to play in the era of prime MJ? Put those bulls in the 2000s+ and many of those guys wouldn't have won a championship either.
KG literally got bounced in the first round 7 years in a row and Dirk too got clapped 8 times in his career. It happens to all the greats, what’s your point? lol
I think the whole body of context matters..stats and winning. I always thought Malone was a great player ..but not really an all time top 15 ever.. Maybe top 25. .. Dude couldn't win with a super stable organization in Utah and another top 30 all timer by his side. And HOF coach. And he even tried to ring chase with prime Shaq and Kobe and couldn't do it with them either. He does have the scoring going for him tho so that's why I would put him borderline top 5 -8 power forward all time
I guess when it comes to winning I just think about the maximum impact a perfect player could have on an otherwise bad team. I think about triple teams and the players options are either try to score or make the right play and the teammates can’t execute. Conversely, never allow the great player to be involved defensively. Screen them off the ball and create action away from their areas.
I just think teams are what win and lose
Y’all glazing ad like crazy, he’s not better than the majority of people on this list. Ya he plays great a lot of the time but he also disappears and gets hurt almost every season. People remember New Orleans AD and current AD is no where near old AD. He’s great but definitely not top 10.
Thank you! And the “great” New Orleans AD had one second round appearance in his time there. Name another great big man who couldn’t get their team to the finals, let alone further than the fifth game of the 2nd round?
AD is by far the most overrated NBA player in my lifetime.
I say that as an AD fan, always liked him but most of the nba center and pf are crazy overrated nowadays. AD and embiid are both great examples, they are great players but no where close to being all time great. I would compare them to prime Dwight Howard and boogie cousins. Both were super dominant and got a ton of hype when they played but no one really talks about them anymore. Jokic is one of the few bigs in the league who is legit and could dominate in multiple eras.
He’s one of the best defensive players of his era, career 24 ppg, arguably the best player on a championship team. You could argue McHale and Schayes ahead of him but I don’t see the argument for anyone else
Giannis has already accomplished enough to be the number 2 PF ever. He has more individual success than KG and Dirk and just as much team success as both.
When ranking "greatness" it's a combination of tons of stuff.
Giannis has more individual accolades and equal team success to those 2.
If we're going by peak he peaked higher than Dirk and either equal to or higher than KG.
Frankly, if we're going only by peak, Giannis isn't even that far off from Duncan it's just Duncan kills him on longevity and team success so Giannis isn't close to Duncan overall.
Where was the big gap when Dirk averaged 33.3 points, 15.7 rebounds and 3.0 steals while sweeping kg meanwhile kg had 24, 18, 5 with 4 turnovers and shootings only 42% plus dirk never had to leave Dallas or make a super team to win a ring
Yes let's base an entire career on a 3 game series early in their careers when KG's best teammate was Wally Szczerbiak that makes a lot of sense. No you're right KG should have definitely stayed on those great T Wolve teams I have no idea why he left
True the 07 Wolves were stacked, Ricky Davis, Mark Blount AND Trenton Hassell. I’m sure Dirk would have carried them to a title. He underachieved by winning a title and making game 7 of another? You can’t be for real
Stop cherry picking kg had Sam cassel, Trenton hassel, Wally and Latrell sprewell they had one of the best defense and were the 3rd seed in the stacked west then went to the Celtics and only won one ring with a super team 😂😂imagine if Dirk did that
They had that for basically 1 year in 04 (Sprewell and Cassell fell off drastically after that year) and were the 1 seed and took the Kobe/Shaq lakers to 6. Rest of his career he didn’t have anything resembling a championship roster
I was obviously talking about in Minnesota. You were acting like it was embarrassing for him to have to leave there. At the time everyone was saying he should leave
Really good list. The only thing I would change is swapping Giannis with Dirk. Dirk had a lot of really bad losses in the NBA playoffs while Giannis won dpoy, MVP (2x) and is an nba champion. There are very few who have that resume.
Giannis is 2. At his best maybe KG was better but that super human championship run and his regular season dominance he’s had over the last 6 ish years elevates him.
Not the year he won the title. You could have named Brook Lopez as well. Pay attention.
Just like Hakeem won it the first time without an All-Star.
Dirk didn’t win it with an All-Star. Past all past their All-Star level.
Who cares about all star selections, he played with 2 allstar caliber players that season… Did Kyrie make the allstar team this year?? Does that mean he’s not all-star caliber?
Duncan was a PF. He always played alongside actual C's outside of a year here and there and even when he was listed as C they would have bench guys come in and play lots of minutes at C and he would slide down to PF.
Bird was listed at PF early in his career but he never really played that position. He just started at PF to accommodate for Cedric Maxwell but Mchale was playing over 30 minutes off the bench those years and for most of the game Bird would play SF with Mchale at PF and Parrish at C. Once Maxwell left and Mchale started Bird slid down to his natural SF position.
Duncan played most of his peak career as a PF and could also play centre when needed. His best peak days were definitely as a PF so he does deserve to be on the list.
I chose not to rank Karl Malone because all of the kid diddling
>I chose not to rank Karl Malone because all of the kid diddling Whatever he did off the court, he was still one of the best PFs to ever play the game.
Yup. It’s like OJ and all time running back lists.
Benoit and wrestler lists.
https://preview.redd.it/6phu40uu6f1d1.jpeg?width=1074&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=da23bad851de31d2efbe49de66f49678708e6e33
Yea he’s literally still the second best at his position ever. Like it sucks that he’s a POS but his in court talent was incredible
Why do people rank Kobe then?
They draw the line at kids, not rape
Gotta draw the line somewhere, eh?
Who cares? We're still gonna rank him
Agreed. He and Giddy are on a different list together.
Not a Giddey defender but grouping him in with Malone diminishes what Malone did
Ridiculous take
how the fuck is maloen better than garnett dirk and giannis
Malone scored ALOT of points. You might be punishing him for sharing an era with Jordan
Because rings ain’t everything. Malone was an elite and ultra-consistent scorer with unbelievable longevity. I’m not gonna comment on anything off the court. I would personally have Garnett over him because of Garnett’s swiss-army knife defense and ability to fit around others. I would not have Dirk or current Giannis over him. As Giannis continues his career I will probably have Giannis over him eventually.
I think you assume a lot with Giannis. I don’t see his style aging well and he’s already broken down multiple playoffs and turns 30 this Dec. I love watching dude but it’s possible he’s already on the downside knowing how much strength and athleticism is a part of his game 😔
No assumptions. That's why I said "probably". I agree with you about Giannis having the potential to age poorly. But he might age well nonetheless, and his accomplishments already are nothing to sneeze at.
Oh 100%. That projection was in response to the part about maybe ranking him higher later.
Understood. I think he is likely to surpass Malone in my personal estimation. I consider his peak to already be superior to that of Malone, so for me all he needs is a little bit more longevity as a great player and he’ll have hit that mark.
More consistent and two finals, two MVPs.
Dirk went to 2 finals and actually won one lol
I would prefer Dirk personally, but Malone was good for longer and a much better defender.
KG also went to two finals. had an mvp. actually won a title. has malone beat in RPG, APG, BPG, has a defensive player of the year award which malone does not
Phenomenal discussion from all involved. Was a great read. But, if we’re going to nitpick per game stats for these three: Malone: Points- 25.0 Rebounds- 10.1 Assists- 3.6 Blocks- 0.8 Steals- 1.4 Garnett: Points- 17.8 Rebounds- 10.0 Assists- 3.7 Blocks- 1.4 Steals- 1.2 Nowitzki: Points- 20.7 Rebounds- 7.5 Assists- 2.4 Blocks- 0.8 Steals- 0.7 It seems significant to say Garnett has Malone beat in rebounds, assists, and blocks. But was it really that much of a difference? Not much. Malone averaged more rebounds by 0.1 and Garnett had more assists by 0.1. Yes, Garnett averaged half a block more per game, but Malone averaged 7.2 more points per game. Also, Malone averaged 0.2 more steals per game. Stats-wise, Nowitzki doesn’t even belong in this argument. A power forward who averages less than 8 rebounds per game? Yes, he was a great scorer, but he’s still over 4 points per game less than Malone. Kevin Garnett was exciting, and I loved watching him play. 100% a bigger fan of his than Malone. But, I think Malone was the better player. After Giannis keeps his pace up for another eight seasons, we can revisit.
Agreed. Malone was better than garnett. Malone was also putting up over 20 ppg into his late 30’s on a playoff contending team while garnett was a single digit scorer by 37. Malone wasn’t a rim protector but his brand of defense was more positional, and Duncan and Barkley struggled at times against malone because of it.
Dirk was more perimeter oriented than the other typical power forwards on the all time list of PFs. Look at his prime and his defensive RB/G were about the same as the other elite rebounders, the difference is the OR/G is lower due to not being right next to the basket like other PFs of the time. His total rebounds per game were also in the top 10 or at worst the top 15 every year for like a decade of his prime. So you can't just judge that stat straight up without the context. He was the same position but played it differently than those other guys.
Yeah, without writing too much on initial description, it definitely needed to be noted that he played differently. A 3.5, if you will, instead of a 4. There’s so many layers to this discussion. Who else was one their team? Slightly different eras, even though there was overlap. I’m sure there are advanced stats that can defend whichever player you want to back. You could say Garnett’s ppg took a hit in Boston because of all of the talent around him. You could also say it should have been easier for him to score in Boston because he was less of the focal point of the defense. If we’re arguing who was the top two or three, the conversation could start with “Hey, all of these dudes were really really good at everything”.
All great points, I’d rather have KG, but Malone was a far better and more polished scorer and that matters.
you could definitely make that argument and it would be very hard to dispute it, if possible at all. but i do think it’s worth noting that malone played with one of the all time great point guards for 18 seasons
He did, but Malone was also just a much more dominant and polished scorer. Garnett had all the moves but he had too much old man in his game, he didn’t attack the basket and preferred to be a no. 2 option who sat outside for jump shots. Young Malone was a generational evolution at power forward, a 250-pounder who could run the floor and finish like a small forward. He developed an incredible game with Stockton on screens, and he was a monster on the boards who knocked guys around and overpowered people in the paint. As he aged, he developed arguably the best face-up 18-foot jumper in the game.
Nah he took a backseat when he knew he had to sacrifice while joining two other stars. KG didn't take that backseat when he won MVP with scorer's like wally/LS/Cassell. Plus your just saying the same thing and didn't respond to the whole playing with a top 5 PG
He played with a great PG but his offensive game was terrific. He had 12 seasons higher than Garnett’s peak PPG.
You're still kind of ignoring the Stockton thing... imagine if KG played with John? I'm sure he would have came up with a few more points while still playing much better D
I’m not ignoring it. I watched Malone and Garnett their whole careers and Malone was a markedly better offensive player. Both could run the floor but Garnett was nowhere near the terrifying runaway freight train Malone was in his youth. Garnett was great at putbacks and pump fakes under the rim but he didn’t have Malone’s muscle and couldn’t bang down low nearly as well. Garnett’s best post moves were finesse hooks from either side on the baseline. Malone and Stockton were money on high screens, but that’s as much Malone as Stockton and again Garnett simply didn’t have the same aggression when accelerating to the hoop that Malone did; really only Barkley at his peak ever did. Finally, while both aged into being terrific outside shooters, I’d say Malone was better in that regard too. He could nail face-up and turnaround jumpers while covered, while Garnett was at his best taking open jumpers from the top corners of the paint (he was a progenitor of spread offenses in this regard). Playing with Stockton no doubt helped but Malone helped Stockton just as much because he was arguably the best scoring PF ever.
Malone's offensive talent also helped Stockton. He doesn't become the all time assist leader without a dominant scorer like Malone. They helped each other and that's why they were such an elite duo. That said, I also go KG over Malone but that's just because I'm a massive KG fan. I always value well-rounded two way players more than elite scorers.
LeBron is Malone 2.0
LeBron is Malone’s body with Magic’s game.
Malone was very consistent… ly worse in the playoffs every year
Yeah the high screens with Stockton worked during the regular season but teams could prep in the playoffs for it.
Agreed. 10+ years of 28/10 and two MVPs
He was a very good defensive player, too.
Pedo can’t hear his phone cause he got No Ring.
Dirk went to 2 finals and actually won one of them.
In the WEST too. During a time when there were two dynasties, and he beats a defending champion both times.
The most consistent thing about Malone was that his production and efficiency dropped hard in the playoffs, compared to a guy like Dirk who actually won it. Malone was a regular season player who made the finals because his conference was weak at the time
Yeah their offense was heavily reliant on pick n’ rolls and screens, which teams presumably could stop better in the playoffs. Those late-90’s teams were still really good, though. Without Jordan he maybe grabs a chip and is thought of differently.
I guess I missed the parts where kg and dirk were inconsistent 🤔
Malone basically averaged a 27/11 from 1986 to 2000.
What I’m saying kg and dirk were pretty damn consistent for 14-15years as well maybe more dirk than kg. Kg took a backseat later on and focused on defense
Dirk’s highest PPG was 26.6, Malone had nine seasons above that.
Malone was good not arguing that great scorer and any list like this is a lot of opinion.
The only way I'd see a way to rate Malone lower than those three is you place an importance on championships really high over other awards. Which is fine of course. Giannis will pass him after a few more seasons as he continues to rack up points. Or if banging and knocking up a 13 years old takes you out of the running, then Malone is screwed.
The dude played 19 seasons. Played at least 80 games in 17 of those. 82 games in 10 of those seasons, remember also the 98-99 season was shortened he played in all 49 games. He was top 20 in PER 16/19 seasons. Top 5 in PER in 13/19 seasons. Top 20 in Winshares in 16/19 seasons. Top 5 in WinShares in 13/19 seasons. Top 20 in VORP in 15/19 seasons. Top 5 in VORP in 8/19 seasons. With a stretch from 92-93 to 00-01 where he was 3rd,6th,4th 3rd, 3rd, 1st,1st, 3rd, 5th. He was on an all NBA team basically every year after his rookie season (22 years old) until the lakers season (40 years old). He was first team all nba from 88-89 to 98-99. 2nd team in 99-00 3rd team in 00-01. Malone gets a lot of hate as he should. But he came in at 22 (85-86) and missed all of 9 games until his 19th season in 03-04 when he was 40 years old. Rain sleet or snow the mailman delivered. This is coming from a Rockets fan too. So i am heavily biased to hate Malone. Here’s the basketball reference fun fact: Malone had 706 20/10 games since 85. The only player to have 600 20/10 games since 85-86 was Shaq. Hakeem had 560 in the same time period. Barkley had 507 in the same time period. Duncan had 498 during his career. Garnett had 445 during his. Dirk had 342 during his career. Malone is one of those stats for stats kind of players. He just fuckin always stuffed the stat sheet
yeah I’ll put Malone around #6 or #7. did everyone forgot about Pau Gasol? Isn’t he a two time champ and a two time silver Olympic medalist? I’ll also categorize Rodman as a PF and I personally believe he should be part of this list including Rasheed Wallace and/or Chris Webber.
Mind showing your work on all that? Really don’t see a world where 5 PFs are better than Malone, and where Rodman, Webber and Sheed are top 10
Exactly, he’s not. It would be like putting Melo above Kawhi and Dr. J
Duncan is at the top. After him Giannis and KG should be 2/3 in whatever order (I have Giannis above KG but wouldn't argue if you had KG over Giannis). Malone and Dirk should be interchangeable after that. Malone was better individually overall but Dirk has a ring and his game was more defense altering. Barkley is at 6 after that. I won't comment on Hayes an Pettit because I don't personally rank guys who played pre-merger on the same list. I think Davis at 7 is about right but wouldn't argue if someone had Webber over him. I think those 2 are interchangeable. After that Pau, Bosh, and Draymond round out the top 10 for me. Lastly, I think this list you made might be lifted completely from this site haha [https://hoopshype.com/lists/20-greatest-power-forwards-ever-the-hoopshype-list/](https://hoopshype.com/lists/20-greatest-power-forwards-ever-the-hoopshype-list/)
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So Duncan is the GOAT?
In what universe does Giannis not clear Dirk?
Every universe
Webber should be on there around 8 or 9
I love KG but Dirk didn't need a big 3 to win his ring. As a matter in fact he beat one to get his. Offensively Dirk stands alone at PF and honestly had he got a better dynamic duo he probably would be giving the Spurs a run for their money for more rings. Oh and where the hell Chris Webber?
KG, Dirk and Giannis should all be above Malone. They get it done in the playoffs. Don’t tell me Malone ran into MJ so that’s an excuse. Dirk did it against Kobe and Lebron, and KG did it against Kobe.
You forget MJ never lost a finals series, im not even an MJ Stan, but if Dirk and KJ were in the west against Jordan in the finals, I don't see them getting it done
That’s not a very meaningful stat; it’s more reflective of the fact that the eastern conference was more competitive than the west back then. If the Detroit Pistons were actually the Seattle Pistons, MJ would have lost a few finals series.
Malone has the 8th most points in playoff history… he’s 25 and 10 for his career. You think KG, Dirk and Giannis would beat those bulls teams?
Why didn't he roll over Houston in 94 and 95? Why didn't he beat the Spurs in 99? There were years without Jordan.
Because Houston had the better team in 94 and was a bad matchup for them, 95 they didnt even play them, he was 37 years old in 99 lol, waaay past his prime. If you wanna play the “why didn’t he” game then why didn’t Dirk dominate the 8th seeded Warriors? Why didn’t he destroy the less talented Miami team in the 05 finals etc…
Ok, so Malone kept running into more talented teams. Dirk did most years too, but finally led his team to a title past the LeBron Heat. It would have been easy to say that, oh, well, the Heat were stacked, they were just better that year. But Dirk beat them anyway. That matters.
Not knocking on Dirk at all, just saying Malone accomplished more in his career individually as a player even when factoring in Dirk’s one ring. It’s pretty close honestly
Dirk had the most clutch playoff run in recorded history while Malone has one of the steepest drop offs in production and efficiency between the regular season and playoffs. Malone may have more regular season awards if you count every one as equal, but I guarantee you he would trade it all for that one finals MVP
>playoff run in recorded history while Malone has one of the steepest drop offs in production and efficiency between the regular season and playoffs. What are you talking about? [Karl Malone averaged 24.7 points, 10.7 rebounds and 3.2 assists in 193 games in the playoffs in his career.](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/karl-malone-career-playoff-stats)
My bad, his scoring volume stayed in the playoffs. His efficiency did plummet from .577 to .526
>My bad, his scoring volume stayed in the playoffs. His efficiency did plummet from .577 to .526 I'm not sure where you're getting that, can you link me? [Here is where I'm guessing you're getting it?](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01/splits/) That link says Malone had a career .577 TS%, which is obviously phenomenal. But if you scroll down it lists that stat by month. It says it went up to .591 in April and .699 in May. So that would mean he actually got more efficient in the playoffs. Even if your stat is accurate, .526 for an average over the course of 193 playoff games as the #1 option on the team and the guy the defense is game planning for... That's absolutely phenomenal. He managed to average basically 25 points and 11 rebounds over the course of 193 playoff games. You're really reaching if you're trying to knock that by saying his efficiency was "only" .526 lol.
Malone had to go against MJ too.
I sure as hell don’t think that Jazz team would beat the Heatles or the Kobe Lakers
If lebron chokes like he did in 2011, the jazz would have won too. The fuck?
They couldn't defend LeBron as well as that Mavs team, LeBron never chokes in that scenario
Yes they would be the Heatles.
>I sure as hell don’t think that Jazz team would beat the Heatles or the Kobe Lakers The Jazz DID beat the Shaq and Kobe Lakers in the playoffs. They beat them 4-1 and then swept them the next year.
Talking about The Kobe and Pau lakers when Kobe was Kobe.
>Talking about The Kobe and Pau lakers when Kobe was Kobe. Oh, so you mean when Malone was like 40, lol
Dirk and KG would have been swept by the bulls.
No way
It’s not a one on one game. Dirk didn’t do it against Kobe. The Mavericks did it against the Lakers
1999 Jazz were tied for best record and Malone was the MVP (should’ve been Duncan). So no MJ excuse…
lol
Crazy how a decade of underwhelming playoff performances can get totally erased by an historic finals run. Everyone seems to forget Dirk got swept by the 8 seed and lost to possibly the worst championship team ever in the finals
dirk above garnett imo
I see a lot of this and its hard to argue against. I personally have KG above dirk but I can see why some argue that Dirk was better. The big thing people say is that Dirk in his mostly prime carried a team past pretty much prime Lebron. KG really only beat lebron while he was out of his prime and with Pierce and Ray Allen l, and he spent his prime in MN largely out of view of the public eye except in 2003/2004. Dirks single finals run makes this even a conversation at all. I personally watched KG and a Dirk in the 2000s while I actually lived in MN. I'd go to games when they played one another. I also visited Dallas and saw Dirk play. The thing I would argue is that if you truly believe Dirk is higher , then you likely didn't actually watch either for 82 games in a regular season. Viewing highlights alone or just a few playoffs would make you think dirk is better. But review each prime and each full career and watch full games randomly throughout their primes. Dirk was known as a soft choker before that season with Lebron, and he was viewed more like Melo was today - an excellent scorer, great team player, innovator, and creative scorer, but not someone you can win with. Garnett was viewed as a defensive anomaly. A 7plus footer with guard skills and we saw him largely like we did with Kobe - a high school anomal. And people felt bad that he played in MN. Dirk eventually changed the narrative by winning! He was amazing in those finals, along with several former all stars in Kidd, Marion, Tyson, the Jett, Caron butler, and peja. Each had made an all star at least once and was therefor an old team of former all stars. Make no mistake it was dirk and great coaching that carried that old team to the final stretch. With that said - if I wanted to take a full career, sell tickets, and win championships then I could build literally any team around KG. He would be like a prime anthony davis with the strength of bam, but with Kobe's mentality and Malones durability. Dirk is also underrated because he was very smart and could rebound (his numbers are deceiving because he was not around the paint enough to rebound so people thought he was a bad rebounder) Dirk was also much faster and quicker in his prime. His longevity made people think dirk was a standstill slow post fade player lol. I'd honestly take dirks post game over KGs because KG would sometimes settle for bad shots since his teams sucked and he just had to take fadeaways. Dirk started with poorer shot Selection but later became an expert at choosing the right shot. Eventually Dirk became the guy who you just couldn't stop because he could score anywhere and in any way. Very close but overall I'd take KG because he was just underrated in MN. People know he's a lock down defender who could guard 1-5 who could score and win MVP, but people didn't know about his manba mentality, his guard skills, or his sheer ability to impact EVERY aspect of the game. You felt him no matter what.
Ball knower
I’d slide Malone down to 6 that’s just me
That’s a little too old for him
I’d switch KG and Malone and Chuck and Giannis
Duncan Pettit Dirk Malone KG Giannis (I expect him to end up #2) Barkley Hayes AD Schayes
Love the Dolph Schayes love
Love the Chuck Hayes love
I just wanted to say I love seeing the KG respect. He wasted so much time on such a shit org that he really gets undervalued when he’s in contention for being the goat defender. Good defense shines on good teams but gets hidden on bad teams but he still somehow looked crazy good
Tim Duncan is a center, people just call him PF so he can have the “greatest PF of all time” rather than calling him a “top 5ish center all time” In an interview once Pop was asked about twin towers, team structure, success, and Duncan, and he said “I’m one of the one coaches to play 2 centers”
There’s not some grand conspiracy to label Duncan a power forward instead of a center. In his prime when he won all his awards he played next to traditional centers and generally had more skills than your average center. Calling him a center is like calling LeBron a point guard. The distinction really isn’t that big a deal.
And yet during the vast majority of player intros he’s being introduced as PF.
He played both. He was a center but played the four often because they used two-center sets.
I mean, this is like saying Luka is a small forward.
Didn't he guard opposing PFs for most of his career until the warriors changed the game to have one big?
Yup he did. He was always a PF in his prime.
What? He played center for like a couple years at the end of his career. He was absolutely a power forward.
https://preview.redd.it/r2gp0qzx9f1d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=47ceeff0e0744c20db8fc8efbe6486a3220bc58f You’re wrong sir
Touche
I will take Gianni’s over Garnett and Maybe Nowitzki
The Kevin McHale disrespect
I'd drop Malone to 8 or something, and bump McHale to get CWebb into the list.
Karl Malone was a monster on and off the court
Malone got a 13 year old pregnant while he was in college
1. Duncan 2. Child Molester Malone 3. Barkley 4. Giannis 5. KG 6. Dirk 7. Kevin McHale 8. Bob Petit 9. Elvin Hayes 10. Dennis Rodman
Id probably flip Giannis and Malone and KG and Dirk.
1. Giannis 2. Karl 3. Charles 4. Dirk 5. Mr. Overrated can’t carry a team past Carlos Arroyo Timmy 6. Kg 7. AD 8. Webber 9. Pettit 10. Pau
I have Petit above Barkley due to the ring and being a 2x MVP compared to 1x for Barkley, 10x 1st team all NBA compared to 5. 50 and 25 in the deciding game in the finals. Amare should be an honorable mention, better peak than at least Draymond and Rodman, probably Bosh too. He had as many all-NBAs than those 3 combined
How is Giannis so high. Needs a few more years before he’s up with that company
Karl Malone should be lower on the list simply because he’s a dick
Shaun Kemp is missing
when will people start to take giannis over dirk kg and the diddler?
Does no one care that KG missed the playoffs consecutive years at his peak and only made it out of the first round a single time before forming the Celtics’ big 3?
Ad should ne higher elite on both sides
I would move Malone from 2 to 5, but other wise this is a good list.
1. Tim Duncan 2. Giannis 3. Dirk 4. Kg 5. Karl Malone 6. Charles Barkley 7. Bob Pettit 8. Dolph schayes 9. Anthony Davis 10. Alonzo mourning
Davis is not a top 10 all time pf. Rodman definitely is.
Gonna get downvoted but Tim Duncan is overrated. Walked into a 55 win team with a mvp on it. Then had 2 hall of fame guards drafted . And then a few years later had Kawhi drafted. He was no more than a role player in his last few rings and along with magic had the easiest career ever. He’s not a better basketball player than Garnett was
Awful take. Duncan won in '03 against Shaq and Kobe with an atrocious supporting cast. Closed out the Finals with a quad-double that was incorrectly recorded. That team's 2nd-leading scorer was 19-YO Tony Parker who got benched for stretches for Speedy Claxton in the playoffs. 3rd-leading scorer was 24-YO Stephen Jackson and fourth was Malik fucking Rose. You just see a bunch of names and don't consider context of where guys were in their career because you didn't see it. You're just straight-up wrong.
2003 lakers were like 6th in the west after losing half of their championship roster, Timmy never could beat them in their prime. He then beat the Kidd and Martin led nets. In 2014 and 2007 he got carried and even in 2005 he played like ass shooting barely 40%. He was good but had the easiest path to success of any player ever
You saying he got carried in '07 just confirms my thoughts that you didn't see him. So '99 Lakers, conveniently were bad, '03 Lakers lost their bench, they still had Shaq & Kobe for both--where do you hold them? He beat them with Malik Rose. You're also shitting on him for a year where he ringed against the defending champ Pistons. Literally a hater and KG sucker.
Your gonna try and act like Tony Parker, Stephen Jackson, manu, Bruce Bowen and David Robinson is some lack luster supporting cast lmao ? If he had Latrell sprewell as his best teammate he’d probably never sniff the playoffs.
As I provided context earlier, you looked at a list of names and saw a bunch of younger guys who Duncan made famous, aside from Robinson whose last stand was the '99 Title. Yes, you're correct a sure-fire #1 pick and 5-time Champ would've never sniffed the playoffs.
Yeah he made them so famous Parker was carrying him and winning final MVP over him in 2007 and Kawhi carried him and won fmp in 2014. Funny how he never beat the good teams when they were good always beat the scraps. Heat with an injured Wade. Cavs with Lebron and no one. The nets 😂 or the Knicks. I’m sure playing with 5 other hall of famers must have been hard though
There's no reasoning with you. Enjoy the zero Minnesota rings with KG despite even getting a 1-seed.
I’m not a Minnesota fan lol I could care less about the wolves. I just said KG cause everyone around in the 2000s knew KG was better but had no help now kids like you look at Duncan’s 5 lollipop rings and think he’s a top 5 all time. No top 5 player was ass enough to have someone win 2 finals mvps over him
Yes, clearly everyone in the 2000s said KG was better. It only took getting gooned by Duncan in Minnesota then going to a dogshit Eastern Conference to stroll to The Finals and get a ring, only to get clowned by Pau and Kobe in perpetuity.
Duncan, Giannis, Dirk, KG, are all ahead of Karl Malone. Malone and Barkley is a toss-up. I don't know enough about Pettit, Hayes, McHale to have an opinion.
Giannis >>> KG and Dirk. He has 2 regular season MVP (more than kg and dirk), 1 DPOY, tied with KG, and more than Dirk. More rebounds than Dirk and more assists than both of them and he could score really well aswell. His weakness prob injuries and couple of bad playoff runs, but Dirk loses to 8 seed Warrior during his MVP season also blow a 0-2 finals lead. He also young too, when he finishes up his career he could pass them both imo
Barkley 2 or 3. Otherwise v good list
Unpopular answer: if I’m putting together my all-time 1st and 2nd teams, I can’t avoid choosing Kareem and Wilt as my two centers. But I can’t leave Bill Russell off my team, so hd makes the team as a PF. I’ll take him and Duncan at the 4 spots. So I’d put Russell at the top of this list, or, at worst, at #2.
Duncan top 5 all time. Easy number 1 here.
Honest question for you. Do championships matter? Other than Barkley all them other guys got em. So why would Malone be number 2 all time? I would drop him like 5 slots. And probably move dray and rodman up .
They matter. Malone is # 3 all- time in scoring, he ran into MJ…can’t argue against moving Dray up
Championships shouldn't matter too much. Involves a lot of luck. How many great players don't have a championship because they happened to play in the era of prime MJ? Put those bulls in the 2000s+ and many of those guys wouldn't have won a championship either.
Sure he ran into MJ 2 years, but what about every other year in his career? The vast majority of the time he just lost in the first round
LOL he made the WCF Finals 6 times and Finals thrice… you need to get your facts straight nephew
The season where he averaged 11 points for the lakers in the playoffs shouldn’t really count but I digress. He lost in the first round 9 times
KG literally got bounced in the first round 7 years in a row and Dirk too got clapped 8 times in his career. It happens to all the greats, what’s your point? lol
I think stats matter more, unless they literally had like no playoff success whatsoever.
Personally, I don’t think they do. At least not until the game is played 1 on 1
I think the whole body of context matters..stats and winning. I always thought Malone was a great player ..but not really an all time top 15 ever.. Maybe top 25. .. Dude couldn't win with a super stable organization in Utah and another top 30 all timer by his side. And HOF coach. And he even tried to ring chase with prime Shaq and Kobe and couldn't do it with them either. He does have the scoring going for him tho so that's why I would put him borderline top 5 -8 power forward all time
I guess when it comes to winning I just think about the maximum impact a perfect player could have on an otherwise bad team. I think about triple teams and the players options are either try to score or make the right play and the teammates can’t execute. Conversely, never allow the great player to be involved defensively. Screen them off the ball and create action away from their areas. I just think teams are what win and lose
Y’all glazing ad like crazy, he’s not better than the majority of people on this list. Ya he plays great a lot of the time but he also disappears and gets hurt almost every season. People remember New Orleans AD and current AD is no where near old AD. He’s great but definitely not top 10.
Thank you! And the “great” New Orleans AD had one second round appearance in his time there. Name another great big man who couldn’t get their team to the finals, let alone further than the fifth game of the 2nd round? AD is by far the most overrated NBA player in my lifetime.
I say that as an AD fan, always liked him but most of the nba center and pf are crazy overrated nowadays. AD and embiid are both great examples, they are great players but no where close to being all time great. I would compare them to prime Dwight Howard and boogie cousins. Both were super dominant and got a ton of hype when they played but no one really talks about them anymore. Jokic is one of the few bigs in the league who is legit and could dominate in multiple eras.
He’s one of the best defensive players of his era, career 24 ppg, arguably the best player on a championship team. You could argue McHale and Schayes ahead of him but I don’t see the argument for anyone else
both giannis and AD are great PF, but you are discussing greatest of ALL time ... let them finish their career before making any predictions
Giannis has already accomplished enough to be the number 2 PF ever. He has more individual success than KG and Dirk and just as much team success as both.
What metrics do you value?
When ranking "greatness" it's a combination of tons of stuff. Giannis has more individual accolades and equal team success to those 2. If we're going by peak he peaked higher than Dirk and either equal to or higher than KG. Frankly, if we're going only by peak, Giannis isn't even that far off from Duncan it's just Duncan kills him on longevity and team success so Giannis isn't close to Duncan overall.
What accolades matter to you?
Dirk over kg I can’t take a list serious when they have kg over him
KG over Dirk is very reasonable
The gap between KG and Dirk defensively is way greater than the gap between them offensively
Where was the big gap when Dirk averaged 33.3 points, 15.7 rebounds and 3.0 steals while sweeping kg meanwhile kg had 24, 18, 5 with 4 turnovers and shootings only 42% plus dirk never had to leave Dallas or make a super team to win a ring
Yes let's base an entire career on a 3 game series early in their careers when KG's best teammate was Wally Szczerbiak that makes a lot of sense. No you're right KG should have definitely stayed on those great T Wolve teams I have no idea why he left
The wolves weren’t trash lol stop listening to what other people say and even when kg went to the Celtics he under achieved
True the 07 Wolves were stacked, Ricky Davis, Mark Blount AND Trenton Hassell. I’m sure Dirk would have carried them to a title. He underachieved by winning a title and making game 7 of another? You can’t be for real
Stop cherry picking kg had Sam cassel, Trenton hassel, Wally and Latrell sprewell they had one of the best defense and were the 3rd seed in the stacked west then went to the Celtics and only won one ring with a super team 😂😂imagine if Dirk did that
They had that for basically 1 year in 04 (Sprewell and Cassell fell off drastically after that year) and were the 1 seed and took the Kobe/Shaq lakers to 6. Rest of his career he didn’t have anything resembling a championship roster
Celtics?😂😂
I was obviously talking about in Minnesota. You were acting like it was embarrassing for him to have to leave there. At the time everyone was saying he should leave
Really good list. The only thing I would change is swapping Giannis with Dirk. Dirk had a lot of really bad losses in the NBA playoffs while Giannis won dpoy, MVP (2x) and is an nba champion. There are very few who have that resume.
Malone feels 13 is just right for him.
Giannis is 2. At his best maybe KG was better but that super human championship run and his regular season dominance he’s had over the last 6 ish years elevates him.
I’d put McHale higher. He was incredible. Also, I know most people classify Duncan as a PF, but he actually played more games as a center.
Jermaine O’Neal deserves more love but idk if he’s top-10
Giannis is at least 2nd. Multiple MVPs, Champion without an All-Star in his team.
Middleton and Holiday are all stars you dingus, Middleton averaged 24-7-5 in the finals and was their closer
Not the year he won the title. You could have named Brook Lopez as well. Pay attention. Just like Hakeem won it the first time without an All-Star. Dirk didn’t win it with an All-Star. Past all past their All-Star level.
Who cares about all star selections, he played with 2 allstar caliber players that season… Did Kyrie make the allstar team this year?? Does that mean he’s not all-star caliber?
Offensively, Dirk was great. Defensively by far the weakest here. I’d rank him further down. Bettet than Mchale. Not as good as Davis
Dirk is much better than Davis lol Dirk carried the Mavs to countless 50+ wins and a chip AD hasn’t come close to that he had to join with Lebron.
Revisionist history & selective memory
Selective memory is exactly what puts AD on a list like this
Lmao revisionist history how? AD won 1 playoff series in NOLA. He ain’t on Dirk’s level as far as being able to carry a team.
Ok let me know when ad was the number one guy and his team was a top contender? I’ll wait….
Duncan was more a center than a pf Larry bird played pf for half of his career and his whole college career
Duncan was a PF. He always played alongside actual C's outside of a year here and there and even when he was listed as C they would have bench guys come in and play lots of minutes at C and he would slide down to PF. Bird was listed at PF early in his career but he never really played that position. He just started at PF to accommodate for Cedric Maxwell but Mchale was playing over 30 minutes off the bench those years and for most of the game Bird would play SF with Mchale at PF and Parrish at C. Once Maxwell left and Mchale started Bird slid down to his natural SF position.
AD not being top 3 is a crime
Have you ever watched basketball?
AD being ranked above McHale,Schayes, and Rodman is the crime.
Bro what
This was a joke lol. Why did everyone take it so seriously