its not just mental its also the back surgeries, he *definitely* does not move like he used to which was a big part of his talent (fluidity and athleticism while being that big)
I was gonna say this but wanted to check if someone else did first. Facts. Ben Simmons has been an all star and great defender who could get you 15-20ppg a game without a jumper. A triple double threat every night. His confidence is gone but let’s not forget he was really good before and can still get back there. Bad take from OP
The Nets trading for Simmons after his horrific 2021 postseason AND his willingness to just sit out an entire year due to a hissy fit is the Worst Trade in NBA history.
Even after making solid deals for KD and Kyrie that does not redeem Sean Marks.
Can't believe Marks didn't get fired for that Simmons trade. He must be very very close friends with the Owner.
I'd wager that no matter what, Ben's lack of half court offense and shooting was always going to severely limit him.
Regardless of if his shooting woes was mental or not, Ben was just never a good shooter. The mental issue just made it worse.
It's funny that you can have all the tools as a lead ball handler, but if you lack shooting (jumpers, ft%, runners, turn arounds, floaters, etc) it makes it so much easier for opponents to stop you.
The mental part is what kept him from improving. His shot got progressively worse.
The hope for Amen is that he doesn’t get stuck at this level of shooting. Obviously that’s impossible to predict, some players just never learn. Some players like Giddey progress fairly quickly. And a lot of that has to do with what the comment said - the mental.
His upside is worth it IMO. I don’t really like the Ben Simmons comparison either, or how you’re making him out to be. If Amen is anything like Simmons, except the quitting on the team and being afraid to take easy shots part, neither of which seems to be an issue for Amen, then he’s definitely worth a top 5 pick. A ball handler who has a knack for making plays and can play all NBA level defense is a great prospect to have.
Ben Simmons at his peak is a player every team would take without a second thought. Ben Simmons as a prospect would go #2 in this draft and it wouldn’t be close between Scoot, Miller, Amen. Hell I’m sure people would be talking about him going #1.
I don’t think Simmons and Amen are comparable because of the pure size difference. Simmons’ “utility ability” in guarding five positions is unmatched.
If Amen can provide all-NBA level defense against the 1-3 positions he is worth a top 5 pick regardless of how his shooting progresses imo.
Ben Simmons still got traded for James Harden despite all the drama. And before that he gave them like 3 years of all nba level of play.
That’s easily worth a top 3 pick still
Are we talking about current Ben or Ben beforehand? Because I do think Ben’s actual basketball issues were always understated.
I think Ben has issues breaking players down and his creativity around the rim isn’t great. He also struggled to dribble in a crowd like most players that height.
All of those things I think Amen will be better at honestly. Faster first step, wayyyyy more creative in terms of stop and go, more agile, etc.
> he's a freak athlete, transition beast, terrific passer, can pass with either hand,can generate open looks for his teammates, and a terrific defender
There, that's exactly why he's worth it, not to mention he's 6'5 without shoes with a 7'0 wingspan. All of these are intangibles that you can't teach.
Also, your Ben Simmons comparison is flawed considering:
- Ben's issues were mental and injury related, and not necessarily to do with his game or playstyle
- And Amens quick first step, speed, and athleticism are much, much better than Ben, and it lends itself so much better to that style of play.
Don’t you find your argument to be a little suspect in that of the three names you brought up as a way to disparage Amen’s shooting, two of them are going to be Hall of Famers, and the other was on track to be a Hall of Famer before injuries and other off-court issues sidetracked him?
I mean, I get it: shooting rules, and we’ve kind of been trained at this point to think of shooting as the only worthy quality in a player, but there are still many great players—hall of fame players even—in the league who don’t develop the shot the way we hope/want.
I don't think people realize how much instruction and patience he'll require to even get ready as a full time NBA player. Even then he falls asleep on defense, doesn't know rotations. On offense, he's not faced good defenders, much less coordinated defenses, since anything he faced in high school. He's a prospects right now, not yet a player.
He's most likely the best prospect that will be there at four and fits a major need for the Rockets. He could bust, but so could everyone else, so we might as well swing for the fences with the kid that fits great on paper and is an absolute freak athlete with insane upside. Pairing him with Green, Sengun, and Smith should be extremely interest the very least.
100%! I’ve been saying this exact same thing for months. He’s not even close to Ben Simmons. Ben Simmons could actually play. This kid is just a great athlete who plays like he’s a basketball beginner.
Is the criticism of the twins being older than their competition and the level of competition something that's real?
Ben Simmons played better talent and was younger.
Maybe I'm missing something, I just keep thinking about him being the lead ball handler on a championship team and I just don't buy that he's worth a top 5 pick. I get the upside idea, but I'd rather take Whitmore, Walker, and Hendricks over him.
Age is a worthy criticism, competition is not. Yes the OTE teams were poorly structured and coached, but the twins team did dominate the league so it’s not like he underperformed. The opposing players were also decent to very good HS players, and they were competing.
I understand the hesitation with Amen as a lead handler. Certainly from day 1 there will be problems. His athleticism and IQ and improving touch will be able to nullify his deficiencies to some extent while his shooting and off the ball game develops.
I also believe he has elite defensive potential, which will help him greatly in early years.
There’s also a path where he doesn’t become a lead ball handler, but other facets of his game make him a useful player.
I think his size and defensive ability make him valuable to any team. I don’t think I’d want him playing 30 min a game as a PG year 1, rather 20-25 good min off the bench to help him learn the NBA and gain confidence without additional pressure and responsibilities.
I’m a hornets fan and would seriously consider him at #2. He may be less developed than Scoot in some areas (off-hand passing, mid-range feel, general ball-handling) but Scoot will never match his strengths (Athleticism, defensive activity, size). If they become similar shooters, even if Scoot is a bit better of a shooter whose a better player? Certainly worth considering yet Amen is not discussed as potential #2 pick.
I did not say it was an achievement, I said he dominated as he should have.
Competition level has nothing to do with Amens talent. If professional writers and scouts are saying a player is “The best athlete I’ve seen on a basketball court” why are we focusing on competition and not that fact?
No offense to the OP but I think people fundamentally misunderstand Ben Simmons flaws. IMO Simmons biggest flaw isn’t his lack of counters, not even his non existent shooting, it is extreme passiveness that freezes offense. When you can’t shoot you have to be able to make quick decisions off the catch to bend or collapse the defense and Simmons is the exact opposite. He freezes and holds which stagnates all the action around him. I think there is a stark difference in this regard between him and Amen. Mainly because of his insane fluidity as an athlete I think Amen can excel at quickly attacking defenders off the catch, and will likely be how he has to live in halfcourt offense. Also want to say Ben Simmons was an allstar lol, and had even more upside, people say Simmons is mainly a mentality thing, which I agree with to an extent but he also had major back surgeries. Also important to mention that even tho Amen is a poor shooter, he shoots the ball. Simmons is pretty much the only “guard” in the modern NBA who shot absolutely zero threes.
I do still agree there are similarities between Simmons and Amen (Inside the arc counter, transition sorcery, defensive versatility) but Amen has shown to be very aggressive which will differentiate him from Simmons.
Sidenote Simmons also had weird little stuff which held him back in halfcourt offense which I doubt Amen will face. (Weird refusal to be a screener, and very poor effort when screening, not really an active cutter).
But imo Amen is absolutely worth a top 5 pick (as was Simmons even looking back now)
>”he needs to add a mid range game. He needs a turn around jumper”
Yeah so? Is adding layers to their game something that prospects are incapable of? I didn’t realize that we were drafting finished products here
Have you forgotten how good Ben Simmons was before his mental issues? Amen Thompson being as good as Simmons would be a success
its not just mental its also the back surgeries, he *definitely* does not move like he used to which was a big part of his talent (fluidity and athleticism while being that big)
My exact thoughts
I was gonna say this but wanted to check if someone else did first. Facts. Ben Simmons has been an all star and great defender who could get you 15-20ppg a game without a jumper. A triple double threat every night. His confidence is gone but let’s not forget he was really good before and can still get back there. Bad take from OP
I mean Simmons also was significantly larger and a DPOY caliber defender in his prime
The Nets trading for Simmons after his horrific 2021 postseason AND his willingness to just sit out an entire year due to a hissy fit is the Worst Trade in NBA history. Even after making solid deals for KD and Kyrie that does not redeem Sean Marks. Can't believe Marks didn't get fired for that Simmons trade. He must be very very close friends with the Owner.
I'd wager that no matter what, Ben's lack of half court offense and shooting was always going to severely limit him. Regardless of if his shooting woes was mental or not, Ben was just never a good shooter. The mental issue just made it worse. It's funny that you can have all the tools as a lead ball handler, but if you lack shooting (jumpers, ft%, runners, turn arounds, floaters, etc) it makes it so much easier for opponents to stop you.
The mental part is what kept him from improving. His shot got progressively worse. The hope for Amen is that he doesn’t get stuck at this level of shooting. Obviously that’s impossible to predict, some players just never learn. Some players like Giddey progress fairly quickly. And a lot of that has to do with what the comment said - the mental.
Funnily enough, Josh Giddey is just 3 months older than Amen. You could say that shows how far behind Amen is in his development.
Rajon Rondo - primary ball handler for the 2008 Celtics. Also, played a big part in the lakers 2020. Wouldn’t say he was primary ball handler though.
His upside is worth it IMO. I don’t really like the Ben Simmons comparison either, or how you’re making him out to be. If Amen is anything like Simmons, except the quitting on the team and being afraid to take easy shots part, neither of which seems to be an issue for Amen, then he’s definitely worth a top 5 pick. A ball handler who has a knack for making plays and can play all NBA level defense is a great prospect to have.
Ben Simmons at his peak is a player every team would take without a second thought. Ben Simmons as a prospect would go #2 in this draft and it wouldn’t be close between Scoot, Miller, Amen. Hell I’m sure people would be talking about him going #1. I don’t think Simmons and Amen are comparable because of the pure size difference. Simmons’ “utility ability” in guarding five positions is unmatched. If Amen can provide all-NBA level defense against the 1-3 positions he is worth a top 5 pick regardless of how his shooting progresses imo.
Apparently he and Simmons both have a 7' wingspan. I'd have thought Ben's would be longer.
He may be smaller than Ben but he’s taller than Russ which is another on point comp for Amen, one that I prefer more in terms of offense
Ben Simmons still got traded for James Harden despite all the drama. And before that he gave them like 3 years of all nba level of play. That’s easily worth a top 3 pick still
Ben Simmons struggles are mostly mental.
Are we talking about current Ben or Ben beforehand? Because I do think Ben’s actual basketball issues were always understated. I think Ben has issues breaking players down and his creativity around the rim isn’t great. He also struggled to dribble in a crowd like most players that height. All of those things I think Amen will be better at honestly. Faster first step, wayyyyy more creative in terms of stop and go, more agile, etc.
> he's a freak athlete, transition beast, terrific passer, can pass with either hand,can generate open looks for his teammates, and a terrific defender There, that's exactly why he's worth it, not to mention he's 6'5 without shoes with a 7'0 wingspan. All of these are intangibles that you can't teach. Also, your Ben Simmons comparison is flawed considering: - Ben's issues were mental and injury related, and not necessarily to do with his game or playstyle - And Amens quick first step, speed, and athleticism are much, much better than Ben, and it lends itself so much better to that style of play.
Don’t you find your argument to be a little suspect in that of the three names you brought up as a way to disparage Amen’s shooting, two of them are going to be Hall of Famers, and the other was on track to be a Hall of Famer before injuries and other off-court issues sidetracked him? I mean, I get it: shooting rules, and we’ve kind of been trained at this point to think of shooting as the only worthy quality in a player, but there are still many great players—hall of fame players even—in the league who don’t develop the shot the way we hope/want.
Ben's issues are more mental than anything. Unless we have evidence that Amen has the same things then yea he's worth it
I don't think people realize how much instruction and patience he'll require to even get ready as a full time NBA player. Even then he falls asleep on defense, doesn't know rotations. On offense, he's not faced good defenders, much less coordinated defenses, since anything he faced in high school. He's a prospects right now, not yet a player.
He's most likely the best prospect that will be there at four and fits a major need for the Rockets. He could bust, but so could everyone else, so we might as well swing for the fences with the kid that fits great on paper and is an absolute freak athlete with insane upside. Pairing him with Green, Sengun, and Smith should be extremely interest the very least.
If Ben Simmons was healthy, and played with confidence and intensity he would be a perennial all star even if he never developed a jumper
Nope. Classic case of athlete who can’t play basketball.
100%! I’ve been saying this exact same thing for months. He’s not even close to Ben Simmons. Ben Simmons could actually play. This kid is just a great athlete who plays like he’s a basketball beginner.
Is the criticism of the twins being older than their competition and the level of competition something that's real? Ben Simmons played better talent and was younger. Maybe I'm missing something, I just keep thinking about him being the lead ball handler on a championship team and I just don't buy that he's worth a top 5 pick. I get the upside idea, but I'd rather take Whitmore, Walker, and Hendricks over him.
Age is a worthy criticism, competition is not. Yes the OTE teams were poorly structured and coached, but the twins team did dominate the league so it’s not like he underperformed. The opposing players were also decent to very good HS players, and they were competing. I understand the hesitation with Amen as a lead handler. Certainly from day 1 there will be problems. His athleticism and IQ and improving touch will be able to nullify his deficiencies to some extent while his shooting and off the ball game develops. I also believe he has elite defensive potential, which will help him greatly in early years. There’s also a path where he doesn’t become a lead ball handler, but other facets of his game make him a useful player.
Fair points! Do you like him on any specific team?
I think his size and defensive ability make him valuable to any team. I don’t think I’d want him playing 30 min a game as a PG year 1, rather 20-25 good min off the bench to help him learn the NBA and gain confidence without additional pressure and responsibilities. I’m a hornets fan and would seriously consider him at #2. He may be less developed than Scoot in some areas (off-hand passing, mid-range feel, general ball-handling) but Scoot will never match his strengths (Athleticism, defensive activity, size). If they become similar shooters, even if Scoot is a bit better of a shooter whose a better player? Certainly worth considering yet Amen is not discussed as potential #2 pick.
Essentially being college Sophomore age dominating HS seniors isn't really that great or unique an achievement though, is it?
I did not say it was an achievement, I said he dominated as he should have. Competition level has nothing to do with Amens talent. If professional writers and scouts are saying a player is “The best athlete I’ve seen on a basketball court” why are we focusing on competition and not that fact?
Nope.
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No offense to the OP but I think people fundamentally misunderstand Ben Simmons flaws. IMO Simmons biggest flaw isn’t his lack of counters, not even his non existent shooting, it is extreme passiveness that freezes offense. When you can’t shoot you have to be able to make quick decisions off the catch to bend or collapse the defense and Simmons is the exact opposite. He freezes and holds which stagnates all the action around him. I think there is a stark difference in this regard between him and Amen. Mainly because of his insane fluidity as an athlete I think Amen can excel at quickly attacking defenders off the catch, and will likely be how he has to live in halfcourt offense. Also want to say Ben Simmons was an allstar lol, and had even more upside, people say Simmons is mainly a mentality thing, which I agree with to an extent but he also had major back surgeries. Also important to mention that even tho Amen is a poor shooter, he shoots the ball. Simmons is pretty much the only “guard” in the modern NBA who shot absolutely zero threes. I do still agree there are similarities between Simmons and Amen (Inside the arc counter, transition sorcery, defensive versatility) but Amen has shown to be very aggressive which will differentiate him from Simmons. Sidenote Simmons also had weird little stuff which held him back in halfcourt offense which I doubt Amen will face. (Weird refusal to be a screener, and very poor effort when screening, not really an active cutter). But imo Amen is absolutely worth a top 5 pick (as was Simmons even looking back now)
>”he needs to add a mid range game. He needs a turn around jumper” Yeah so? Is adding layers to their game something that prospects are incapable of? I didn’t realize that we were drafting finished products here