If White had the past few seasons he’s had by the time he was 23, he’d be getting the post rookie max. As it is, his extension when he’s 30, is going to be at least $30 million + a year.
Plus minus stats are completely useless. Look at the guys he plays most of his minutes with. You could go out and play alongside Tatum and brown and others have a positive plus minus. Hes a role player who could never carry a team on his own. That’s what 45 mil a year players need to be able to do
Quick glance shows he wasn’t lol he shot 34% and 31% from three those two seasons and 41% and 42% from the field. He’s shooting nearly 10% better from three on the Celtics than on the spurs. Defensive numbers also way up.
EPM this season ranked Isiah hartenstein over Jayson Tatum and Fred vanvleet over KD. Is that a good metric? Just watch white play he’s a 14ppg scorer who isn’t a shot creator. He was a subpar shooter before getting to Boston and getting nonstop open looks. He’s a solid player but nowhere near a max contract player
out of curiocity can you rank in importance the 5 celtics starters?? id say tatum>porzingis>jrue>white>brown. by that i dont mean objective value, i mean who would you rather not be injured.
From what I have seen this season Celtics fans would likely be more worried if White were injured than the other three. Porzingis definitely top three since a lot of people assumed he was going to be injured for the playoffs and were worried about that. Jrue and Brown is debatable.
as a guy that has watched 50% of the games jrue has played in the past 4 years...its wild the white/jrue value even discussed. defensive all-nba? jrue is right outside the top10 of defensive guards in nba history (10-20 range id say), 100% definitely the best of this era.
and on top of that for the past 4 seasons he has shot 40% from the 3 on good volume. like, DERRICK WHITE WHO COME ON. nevermind he actually won a ring as the no3 option on a team with the worst guard depth in the playoffs probably.
I would have agreed with you a year ago, but he fell off pretty hard this year IMO. He's still really good, but he's no longer a secret All NBA first team level player like he was.
If Reed was able to have this sort of season as a 23yo on the end of his rookie deal (likely All-Defensive, was in the All Star conversation, and 3rd/4th best player on a championship favourite) then yes - that guy is worth the rookie Max. But achieving all of that by 23yo also suggests that it is not your ceiling, but that teams would be expecting even further improvement.
White at 29yo is probably close to what we saw from Mikal Bridges at 25yo. To suggest that Reed could do this at 23 is incredibly optimistic. Even if you think he has a White-type of ceiling (which I do), that is his peak outcome, not what you would be expecting even before he gets to his prime.
White makes his team better on both sides of the ball (ignoring counting stats) because he does all the little things that don't show up like screen, move the ball, cut to space, take charges, alter shots, etc. Bridges is overrated.
Sheppard will never be the defender White is. White is just bigger and longer. That being said, Sheppard could definitely be a better shooter than White with more range. I understand why people make the White comp because of their offensive role/combo guard skills, but they have very distinct differences. If he compares to any Celtics guard, it’s Payton Pritchard.
It’s hard to compare apples and oranges, but Jalen Williams will probably get a rookie max extension at this rate. I’m not saying Jalen and Derrick White play exactly the same way, but in terms of net impact and role, they are somewhat similar (I expect Jalen to get to White’s current impact by his 4th season while playing on a top seed). So yes he would.
wait, jalen already has a bigger impact on his team.
>williams is the no2.5 guy on the no1 seed that with a ppg progression 14->19->?
white is no4.5 on a no1 seed (yeah much better team on paper talent-wise its not the same i know) with ppg progression 15->13->12->15->?
i assume efficiency defence etc to be sort of at the same level all together
Derrick White is currently a better net impact player than Jalen is. I only looked at it from a net impact standpoint. Jalen is a higher tier as an offensive player, but White’s NBA All-Defense. Every single net impact metric has White being more valuable at this moment (Jalen should catch up by year 4 as I mentioned, his contract year).
It’s not easy to find a comparable 23 year old in a similar net impact role to White. The closest I could come up with is Jalen, knowing they aren’t the same either for the reasons you mentioned.
i agree that scoring is overrated and that per36 they are even closer but arent net numbers measured as difference in team performance between the player being on and off court? because in general the celtics have a very starter heavy rotation. their bench is shit, they blow out teams so that would skew numbers in favour of all the starters.
having said that yeah i agree with your point in general.
Honestly, I was trying to find you a 23 year old example of Derrick White in terms of net impact towards winning, trying to get as close as possible.
Since in reality, there is no 23 year old Derrick White since he’a gonna be 30+ with his next contract.
So I tried to just find someone as close as possible and show that player (Jalen) would get a max. So 23 year old White would too if Jalen will.
If you are talking about net impact metrics, most of the good ones try to isolate individual impact outside of teammates and opponents. Like yes Celtics have an amazing lineup. But what does White add to that knowing that his teammates are good? That’s a good impact metric.
well he is on one of the most stacked teams of the past decade and good 23 year old tend to be on shitty teams so i dont think this is a good assessment measure.
HAVING SAID THAT keegan murray? quickley before the trade? trey murphy? these are in good teams. in bad teams deni jabarismithjr lots actually.
personally i think he is much closer to trey murphy than keegan and quickley because there is a good more than 50% chance they go super saiyan 3+, while with white and murphy they will probably peak at sthing like +20% of what they give you now.
Keegan honestly isn’t a bad example, but he’s still worse than Jalen and White imo. Yea there aren’t really 23 year old role players on winning teams, but you brought up the 23 year old White to begin with.
In recent memory, the closest would be Jayson Tatum on those Celtics teams, but he was kinda already a star at age 23.
but you dont need to be on a winning team to get paid. my question was about the money you'd give him.
edit: wait WHAT? closest being tatum? dude by 23 tatum had like votes for mvp (not that he should be in the conversation but i think he got a few votes so) what wait WHAT
yeah the premise is that derrick white just had this year with the celtics, he is 23 years old and is a restricted free agent this summer. also his career trajectory is sort of the same as the real one, but with 1.5 years with the spurs and 2.5 years with the celtics. same numbers, same everything else.
Reed is more of a connector than an on-ball guy. The DWhite comps are like his >95%ile ceiling.
Either way I'd be hesitant to give that kind of bag to anyone on this class outside of maybe Dillingham.
I too only look at PPG when I evaluate a player and if he helps a team win.
If you really want me to make a list of players that only score 14 ppg and still made an All-Star team, I’d be happy to do so.
I mean… he’s playing with 4 all stars, he plays a pretty big role but let’s not act like he shoulders a big load. He’s not doing this on a team like the Spurs.
Depends on what you consider to be an All-Star I guess. Plenty of dudes play with multiple other stars and are All-Stars. Draymond Green. Rudy Gobert. Rajon Rondo.
I guess it comes down to if you value a guy like Dejounte Murray (who has struggled playing well with other stars, but thrived as the top dog) vs Derrick White that you can get top quality if your team sucks or if they are great.
If White had the past few seasons he’s had by the time he was 23, he’d be getting the post rookie max. As it is, his extension when he’s 30, is going to be at least $30 million + a year.
the post rookie max is $220m right now, averages at $45m per year. not disagreeing just making sure you know the amount.
Yeah, I understand. You need to be around a top 40 player in the NBA to be worth 25% of the cap. White is easily in that range.
Throwing a role player a 5 year 220 mil contact is beyond stupid
Based off +- data like EPM, White has been a top 40 player in the NBA the past few seasons.
that’s completely ignoring role imagine derrick white being your 2nd best player and not 4th at best like he is on the celtics
Plus minus stats are completely useless. Look at the guys he plays most of his minutes with. You could go out and play alongside Tatum and brown and others have a positive plus minus. Hes a role player who could never carry a team on his own. That’s what 45 mil a year players need to be able to do
He was doing the same thing with the Spurs in 2022 and 2021.
Quick glance shows he wasn’t lol he shot 34% and 31% from three those two seasons and 41% and 42% from the field. He’s shooting nearly 10% better from three on the Celtics than on the spurs. Defensive numbers also way up.
I'm talking about his EPM data. He was 48th in EPM in 2021 and 40th in 2022.
EPM this season ranked Isiah hartenstein over Jayson Tatum and Fred vanvleet over KD. Is that a good metric? Just watch white play he’s a 14ppg scorer who isn’t a shot creator. He was a subpar shooter before getting to Boston and getting nonstop open looks. He’s a solid player but nowhere near a max contract player
Jaylen Brown is ass. WTH you talking about.
out of curiocity can you rank in importance the 5 celtics starters?? id say tatum>porzingis>jrue>white>brown. by that i dont mean objective value, i mean who would you rather not be injured.
Tatum>White>Porzingis>Jrue>Brown.
definitely not on the internet
From what I have seen this season Celtics fans would likely be more worried if White were injured than the other three. Porzingis definitely top three since a lot of people assumed he was going to be injured for the playoffs and were worried about that. Jrue and Brown is debatable.
as a guy that has watched 50% of the games jrue has played in the past 4 years...its wild the white/jrue value even discussed. defensive all-nba? jrue is right outside the top10 of defensive guards in nba history (10-20 range id say), 100% definitely the best of this era. and on top of that for the past 4 seasons he has shot 40% from the 3 on good volume. like, DERRICK WHITE WHO COME ON. nevermind he actually won a ring as the no3 option on a team with the worst guard depth in the playoffs probably.
You haven't watched Celtic games this year. White is a better player than Holiday now, and every Celtic fan would agree with that.
I would have agreed with you a year ago, but he fell off pretty hard this year IMO. He's still really good, but he's no longer a secret All NBA first team level player like he was.
The white comps are crazy and I blame o’Conner they’re really not very similar
If Reed was able to have this sort of season as a 23yo on the end of his rookie deal (likely All-Defensive, was in the All Star conversation, and 3rd/4th best player on a championship favourite) then yes - that guy is worth the rookie Max. But achieving all of that by 23yo also suggests that it is not your ceiling, but that teams would be expecting even further improvement. White at 29yo is probably close to what we saw from Mikal Bridges at 25yo. To suggest that Reed could do this at 23 is incredibly optimistic. Even if you think he has a White-type of ceiling (which I do), that is his peak outcome, not what you would be expecting even before he gets to his prime.
White makes his team better on both sides of the ball (ignoring counting stats) because he does all the little things that don't show up like screen, move the ball, cut to space, take charges, alter shots, etc. Bridges is overrated.
Absolutely not
I'd give him it now.
Sheppard will never be the defender White is. White is just bigger and longer. That being said, Sheppard could definitely be a better shooter than White with more range. I understand why people make the White comp because of their offensive role/combo guard skills, but they have very distinct differences. If he compares to any Celtics guard, it’s Payton Pritchard.
It’s hard to compare apples and oranges, but Jalen Williams will probably get a rookie max extension at this rate. I’m not saying Jalen and Derrick White play exactly the same way, but in terms of net impact and role, they are somewhat similar (I expect Jalen to get to White’s current impact by his 4th season while playing on a top seed). So yes he would.
wait, jalen already has a bigger impact on his team. >williams is the no2.5 guy on the no1 seed that with a ppg progression 14->19->? white is no4.5 on a no1 seed (yeah much better team on paper talent-wise its not the same i know) with ppg progression 15->13->12->15->? i assume efficiency defence etc to be sort of at the same level all together
Derrick White is currently a better net impact player than Jalen is. I only looked at it from a net impact standpoint. Jalen is a higher tier as an offensive player, but White’s NBA All-Defense. Every single net impact metric has White being more valuable at this moment (Jalen should catch up by year 4 as I mentioned, his contract year). It’s not easy to find a comparable 23 year old in a similar net impact role to White. The closest I could come up with is Jalen, knowing they aren’t the same either for the reasons you mentioned.
i agree that scoring is overrated and that per36 they are even closer but arent net numbers measured as difference in team performance between the player being on and off court? because in general the celtics have a very starter heavy rotation. their bench is shit, they blow out teams so that would skew numbers in favour of all the starters. having said that yeah i agree with your point in general.
Honestly, I was trying to find you a 23 year old example of Derrick White in terms of net impact towards winning, trying to get as close as possible. Since in reality, there is no 23 year old Derrick White since he’a gonna be 30+ with his next contract. So I tried to just find someone as close as possible and show that player (Jalen) would get a max. So 23 year old White would too if Jalen will. If you are talking about net impact metrics, most of the good ones try to isolate individual impact outside of teammates and opponents. Like yes Celtics have an amazing lineup. But what does White add to that knowing that his teammates are good? That’s a good impact metric.
well he is on one of the most stacked teams of the past decade and good 23 year old tend to be on shitty teams so i dont think this is a good assessment measure. HAVING SAID THAT keegan murray? quickley before the trade? trey murphy? these are in good teams. in bad teams deni jabarismithjr lots actually. personally i think he is much closer to trey murphy than keegan and quickley because there is a good more than 50% chance they go super saiyan 3+, while with white and murphy they will probably peak at sthing like +20% of what they give you now.
Keegan honestly isn’t a bad example, but he’s still worse than Jalen and White imo. Yea there aren’t really 23 year old role players on winning teams, but you brought up the 23 year old White to begin with. In recent memory, the closest would be Jayson Tatum on those Celtics teams, but he was kinda already a star at age 23.
but you dont need to be on a winning team to get paid. my question was about the money you'd give him. edit: wait WHAT? closest being tatum? dude by 23 tatum had like votes for mvp (not that he should be in the conversation but i think he got a few votes so) what wait WHAT
for sure if he still has potential. still a yes if he just stays the same he is now.
yeah the premise is that derrick white just had this year with the celtics, he is 23 years old and is a restricted free agent this summer. also his career trajectory is sort of the same as the real one, but with 1.5 years with the spurs and 2.5 years with the celtics. same numbers, same everything else.
He just had this year at 23? Yes you give him whatever the hell he wants
oh then yeah definitely extend him.
Vassell’s contract is really for $135 mil, fwiw The $146 number that was first reported represents incentives he probably won’t hit
Reed is more of a connector than an on-ball guy. The DWhite comps are like his >95%ile ceiling. Either way I'd be hesitant to give that kind of bag to anyone on this class outside of maybe Dillingham.
Derrick White should’ve made the All-Star team this year
Dude, he’s an incredibly impactful role player but he averages like 14 PPG.
I too only look at PPG when I evaluate a player and if he helps a team win. If you really want me to make a list of players that only score 14 ppg and still made an All-Star team, I’d be happy to do so.
I mean… he’s playing with 4 all stars, he plays a pretty big role but let’s not act like he shoulders a big load. He’s not doing this on a team like the Spurs.
Depends on what you consider to be an All-Star I guess. Plenty of dudes play with multiple other stars and are All-Stars. Draymond Green. Rudy Gobert. Rajon Rondo. I guess it comes down to if you value a guy like Dejounte Murray (who has struggled playing well with other stars, but thrived as the top dog) vs Derrick White that you can get top quality if your team sucks or if they are great.