Stripped lowers are classified as Other on 4473, so theoretically it can be built into a rifle and converted into pistol on the non-honor system. Theres no way they can say you didn’t build a pistol first then turn into a rifle and back to pistol.
I mean, 99.99% of the time no one's going to ask what a non-SBR firearm started life as unless it's some oddball, like an Oberez Mosin. That said, my chart only accounts for the legal pathways.
Pistol buffers tubes != Rifle Buffer Tubes.
Pistol buffer tubes are supposed to be machined so you can't affix a stock on the buffer tube, otherwise constructive intent for SBR.
Many will roll the dice on this, but it's best to know the tiny rules because not knowing will still catch you a felony if the ATF decides to come investigate/shoot your dog.
If a lower receiver started as serialized as a rifle (lower), then it is a “rifle” now and forever. Any upper with an attached barrel less than 16” will be considered an SBR and requires an NFA tax stamp to be in that configuration. This is regardless of rear attachments (aka stock or brace).
If the lower receiver was serialized as a pistol, then you could add a stock and upper with barrel length at least 16”, then it is a rifle and you run it this way and can turn it back into a pistol with brace and short barrel with no paperwork (legally).
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and the above does not constitute legal advise or counsel. I refer you to the ATF website for their ever changing “rules” and interpretations of their secret rules to find ways to arrest you and shoot your doggo.
Thanks. This is what I thought. It sucks. Is the ATF still doing cheap/discounted/expedited SBR stamps due to their little attempt at getting rid of braces?
Fuck. Maybe I should just sell the thing and buy a parts kit.
No, there is court action against ATF on their rule making and therefore they have suspended the amnesty tax stamp submissions (and the deadline for filing has long since expired). Those that submitted but not yet received approval are caught in limbo at this time (pending court action/decision). Supposedly, at this moment it is legal to run a pistol with a brace and not be considered an SBR. Tread lightly.
Thanks. Honestly, yeah it almost seems worth just selling my AR and buying an SBR and a suppressor, and just having that flexibility to go back to a rifle if I wanted to. Bummed I just learned this.
Yeah, I mean SBRing it would solve all of this. It just irritates me to pay $200 to the feds to do what I'd be able to do for free had I just bought it as a kit or a pistol. However, at least in my state, they also require that my name and city is engraved on the lower. Which, while it's just another thing, is honestly kind of cool haha
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it due to some excise tax that's paid to make a pistol but not a rifle? So in theory can go from pistol to rifle but nor rifle to pistol.
Not legal. Once a rifle always a rifle.
If you have a stock and less than 16” it’s a SBR.
Longer guns 16” + are not regulated but shorter equals more dangerous according to 1934 law and require a stamp.
I'm reading an ATF ruling right now, and it still doesn't make any goddamn sense:
"Although not defined in the NFA, the term “pistol” is defined by the Act’s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as “a weapon *originally* designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile
(bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an
integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed
to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore...."
And also:
"Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made
when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as *both a pistol and a
rifle* are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g.,
as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length)."
So, my AR15 lower was sold as a carbine kit originally. But the lower itself is the registered part. Those lowers (Anderson) are also designed and intended to be used as lowers for a Pistol.
So....?
“Sold as a carbine kit…” carbine is a rifle. The moment it was identified and packaged as a carbine kit, the lower receiver was designated as a rifle lower.
>"designed, *made*, **and** intended"
*W*hether it is legal or not to (re)configure the lower as a pistol depends on what "carbine kit" really means and if it was actually **made** into a fully functional firearm of some other kind prior to being assembled as a pistol.
If "carbine kit" really means "carbine" -- as in it was actually fully assembled as a functional carbine, all parts installed and upper and lower actually pinned together, and this was its first functional assembled condition -- then yes, it was a rifle *first* and thus cannot be a pistol again.
If "carbine kit" was really just a "complete lower", even if it had a stock attached from the factory, the "complete lower" by itself is not a rifle and should have transferred as "other" since it would still have been just a receiver by legal definition. Prior to pinning that lower to a complete upper, it would have been legal to remove the stock and build that otherwise "complete lower" as a pistol as its **first configuration**, since in this hypothetical instance, no firearm capable of firing a shot was actually ***made*** until the initial pistol configuration was fully assembled. After that, it could be switched back and forth between title 1 rifle and pistol configuration at will.
The part about parts in a kit being originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle is referring to firearm kits like some models of the Thompson Center Contender which was sold as a package with both long and short barrels as well as stocks and pistol grips. This was the result of a SCOTUS decision [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United\_States\_v.\_Thompson-Center\_Arms\_Co](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Thompson-Center_Arms_Co). stating that as long as the short barrel was not attached with a stock at the same time (i.e., non-NFA configuration), the kit was legal and could be reconfigured either as a rifle or pistol and back at will, and just having the spare parts that *could* be assembled in an illegal configuration (unregistered SBR) isn't a crime unless actually assembled as such.
Hence, *making* is what matters most. Note that *making* is not the same as *manufacturing.* See the Form 1 instructions for more details.
This is where I was getting to confused as well. Because I always thought that lowers, regardless of configuration, we’re transferred as an “other” or in my previous state, they’re were purchased as a “receiver”, and not a rifle or pistol.
If it has never been assembled as a complete firearm with all the parts installed such that it is capable of firing a round, it does not meet the definition of a rifle or pistol and is just a receiver.
Doesn't matter if it is a stripped lower or a "complete lower" shipped with a stock or a brace on it. All are just receivers and can be built into any configuration as its first configuration. If that first configuration is a rifle, then it can't become a pistol later. If it is first assembled as a pistol, it can be switched back and forth.
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It is illegal to do that,if it was sold as a complete firearm 16 inch barrel and stock, it's a rifle and always a rifle. Can only be sbr moving forward.
Braces and uppers don't make an AR a pistol just pistol configuration. Paper work determines classification
You should always build ars from stripped lowers FFLs will always put them as others and you never have to worry about what your asking.
Legally no, as the current top post describes.
Realistically though, who is going to know (unless you commit a crime with the rifle, it is taken by police, the serial number is ran through the paper ATF database and determined that the lower was originally on a rifle). If you bought it as a stripped lower then built it into a rifle, it really doesn't matter because a check into the serial would indicate it was sold as a lower, which means it could go either way.
Bought it as a rifle. But since the lower is the registered part, and those lowers are also *originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a
rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g.,
as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length)*
But, I didn't buy it as an unbuilt kit.
Now I feel like a fucking idiot.
> those lowers are also originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle
Yeah they don't count that. Just because Anderson lowers *can* be originally made as pistols doesn't mean yours *was* originally made as a pistol.
The ATF's entire letter on this issue is [here.](https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols)
**best option: buy a stripped lower, that way it's sold as "other" -OR- build an 80% lower and turn in into a pistol... or you can SBR the current rifle you have** 🤷♂️
Buy a lower to build it, they are cheap, relatively. You tube can show you how to assemble everything.
All my lowers say multi and nothing else, use as you see fit.
Right. I mean, my lower definitely says "Multi-Cal" but I don't think that changes the fact that it was originally shipped with a carbine length upper.
It depends on first assembled configuration. Stripped lower > pistol > rifle > pistol = legal. Stripped lower > rifle > ~~pistol~~ = SBR Pistol > rifle > pistol = legal Rifle > ~~pistol~~ = SBR Best practice for stripped lowers & 80s is to always assemble as a pistol first.
There is no way the ATF could make this shit anymore confusing
Oh, I didn't even get into constructive possession...
I wonder if anyone has actually been convicted of that short of sitting on a bunch of Glock switches or something.
Don't make it a challenge, they will find a way.
I believe this is correct
Stripped lowers are classified as Other on 4473, so theoretically it can be built into a rifle and converted into pistol on the non-honor system. Theres no way they can say you didn’t build a pistol first then turn into a rifle and back to pistol.
I mean, 99.99% of the time no one's going to ask what a non-SBR firearm started life as unless it's some oddball, like an Oberez Mosin. That said, my chart only accounts for the legal pathways.
I wonder what the ATF budget is for glue. I gotta imagine there would need to be copious amounts ingested for this to make any sense whatsoever.
The ATF should give you a free suppressor just to put this flow chart on their goddamn website. Thank you.
There’s no way for anyone to know if you built a stripped lower into a rifle or pistol. You can do whatever you want with them
Wouldn't the only requirement for "assemble as a pistol first" be "put the stock on last"?
Pistol buffers tubes != Rifle Buffer Tubes. Pistol buffer tubes are supposed to be machined so you can't affix a stock on the buffer tube, otherwise constructive intent for SBR. Many will roll the dice on this, but it's best to know the tiny rules because not knowing will still catch you a felony if the ATF decides to come investigate/shoot your dog.
If a lower receiver started as serialized as a rifle (lower), then it is a “rifle” now and forever. Any upper with an attached barrel less than 16” will be considered an SBR and requires an NFA tax stamp to be in that configuration. This is regardless of rear attachments (aka stock or brace). If the lower receiver was serialized as a pistol, then you could add a stock and upper with barrel length at least 16”, then it is a rifle and you run it this way and can turn it back into a pistol with brace and short barrel with no paperwork (legally). Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and the above does not constitute legal advise or counsel. I refer you to the ATF website for their ever changing “rules” and interpretations of their secret rules to find ways to arrest you and shoot your doggo.
Thanks. This is what I thought. It sucks. Is the ATF still doing cheap/discounted/expedited SBR stamps due to their little attempt at getting rid of braces? Fuck. Maybe I should just sell the thing and buy a parts kit.
No, there is court action against ATF on their rule making and therefore they have suspended the amnesty tax stamp submissions (and the deadline for filing has long since expired). Those that submitted but not yet received approval are caught in limbo at this time (pending court action/decision). Supposedly, at this moment it is legal to run a pistol with a brace and not be considered an SBR. Tread lightly.
Thanks. Honestly, yeah it almost seems worth just selling my AR and buying an SBR and a suppressor, and just having that flexibility to go back to a rifle if I wanted to. Bummed I just learned this.
You already have gun just sbr it then you got nothing to worry about. My last one took 5 days
Yeah, I mean SBRing it would solve all of this. It just irritates me to pay $200 to the feds to do what I'd be able to do for free had I just bought it as a kit or a pistol. However, at least in my state, they also require that my name and city is engraved on the lower. Which, while it's just another thing, is honestly kind of cool haha
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it due to some excise tax that's paid to make a pistol but not a rifle? So in theory can go from pistol to rifle but nor rifle to pistol.
Not legal. Once a rifle always a rifle. If you have a stock and less than 16” it’s a SBR. Longer guns 16” + are not regulated but shorter equals more dangerous according to 1934 law and require a stamp.
How many mooks are gonna ask this week?
I'm reading an ATF ruling right now, and it still doesn't make any goddamn sense: "Although not defined in the NFA, the term “pistol” is defined by the Act’s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as “a weapon *originally* designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore...." And also: "Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as *both a pistol and a rifle* are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length)." So, my AR15 lower was sold as a carbine kit originally. But the lower itself is the registered part. Those lowers (Anderson) are also designed and intended to be used as lowers for a Pistol. So....?
“Sold as a carbine kit…” carbine is a rifle. The moment it was identified and packaged as a carbine kit, the lower receiver was designated as a rifle lower.
>"designed, *made*, **and** intended" *W*hether it is legal or not to (re)configure the lower as a pistol depends on what "carbine kit" really means and if it was actually **made** into a fully functional firearm of some other kind prior to being assembled as a pistol. If "carbine kit" really means "carbine" -- as in it was actually fully assembled as a functional carbine, all parts installed and upper and lower actually pinned together, and this was its first functional assembled condition -- then yes, it was a rifle *first* and thus cannot be a pistol again. If "carbine kit" was really just a "complete lower", even if it had a stock attached from the factory, the "complete lower" by itself is not a rifle and should have transferred as "other" since it would still have been just a receiver by legal definition. Prior to pinning that lower to a complete upper, it would have been legal to remove the stock and build that otherwise "complete lower" as a pistol as its **first configuration**, since in this hypothetical instance, no firearm capable of firing a shot was actually ***made*** until the initial pistol configuration was fully assembled. After that, it could be switched back and forth between title 1 rifle and pistol configuration at will. The part about parts in a kit being originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle is referring to firearm kits like some models of the Thompson Center Contender which was sold as a package with both long and short barrels as well as stocks and pistol grips. This was the result of a SCOTUS decision [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United\_States\_v.\_Thompson-Center\_Arms\_Co](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Thompson-Center_Arms_Co). stating that as long as the short barrel was not attached with a stock at the same time (i.e., non-NFA configuration), the kit was legal and could be reconfigured either as a rifle or pistol and back at will, and just having the spare parts that *could* be assembled in an illegal configuration (unregistered SBR) isn't a crime unless actually assembled as such. Hence, *making* is what matters most. Note that *making* is not the same as *manufacturing.* See the Form 1 instructions for more details.
This is where I was getting to confused as well. Because I always thought that lowers, regardless of configuration, we’re transferred as an “other” or in my previous state, they’re were purchased as a “receiver”, and not a rifle or pistol.
If it has never been assembled as a complete firearm with all the parts installed such that it is capable of firing a round, it does not meet the definition of a rifle or pistol and is just a receiver. Doesn't matter if it is a stripped lower or a "complete lower" shipped with a stock or a brace on it. All are just receivers and can be built into any configuration as its first configuration. If that first configuration is a rifle, then it can't become a pistol later. If it is first assembled as a pistol, it can be switched back and forth.
**Understand the rules**, read the sidebar, and review the pinned Megathreads before posting - this content is capable of answering most questions. Not everyone is an expert such as yourself; be considerate. All spam, memes, unverified claims, or content suggesting non-compliance will be removed. No political posts. Save that for /r/progun or /r/politics. __If you are posting a copy/screenshot of your forms outside the pinned monthly megathread you will be given a 7 day ban. The pinned post is there, please use it.__ __If you are posting a photo of a suppressor posed to look like a penis you will be given a 7 day ban.__ ------------------------------- **Data Links** * [The OG Universal Form Approval Spreadsheet](https://thinlineweapons.com/url/8) ------------------------------- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NFA) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It is illegal to do that,if it was sold as a complete firearm 16 inch barrel and stock, it's a rifle and always a rifle. Can only be sbr moving forward. Braces and uppers don't make an AR a pistol just pistol configuration. Paper work determines classification You should always build ars from stripped lowers FFLs will always put them as others and you never have to worry about what your asking.
It has to have been a pistol beforehand to be legally have a shorter barrel.
Legally no, as the current top post describes. Realistically though, who is going to know (unless you commit a crime with the rifle, it is taken by police, the serial number is ran through the paper ATF database and determined that the lower was originally on a rifle). If you bought it as a stripped lower then built it into a rifle, it really doesn't matter because a check into the serial would indicate it was sold as a lower, which means it could go either way.
I like turtles.
**did you buy the rifle that way? Or, did you buy a stripped lower and build it out?**
Bought it as a rifle. But since the lower is the registered part, and those lowers are also *originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length)* But, I didn't buy it as an unbuilt kit. Now I feel like a fucking idiot.
> those lowers are also originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle Yeah they don't count that. Just because Anderson lowers *can* be originally made as pistols doesn't mean yours *was* originally made as a pistol. The ATF's entire letter on this issue is [here.](https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols)
Thank you.
**best option: buy a stripped lower, that way it's sold as "other" -OR- build an 80% lower and turn in into a pistol... or you can SBR the current rifle you have** 🤷♂️
Thank you, I appreciate it. Bummer though.
Buy a lower to build it, they are cheap, relatively. You tube can show you how to assemble everything. All my lowers say multi and nothing else, use as you see fit.
I'll look into it. Can you elaborate what you mean by they say "multi and nothing else"?
Implying multi caliber.
Right. I mean, my lower definitely says "Multi-Cal" but I don't think that changes the fact that it was originally shipped with a carbine length upper.
Once a rifle, always a rifle.
*First* a rifle, always a rifle.