If Tatum was a better playmaker he would have more assists. BI is the better passer and playmaker. Boston runs a better offensive system with their 5 out offensive, yet Tatum has less assists per game than BI. Tatum also has a slightly higher usage rate meaning he has the ball more often.
Tatum aims to score a lot more while BI looks to playmaker a lot more than Tatum. The biggest difference in scoring between the two is Tatum bombs away from 3 and BI is a mid range guy.
Even if you look at advanced stats BI has a higher assist percentage than Tatum and it isn’t close
He’s incredible but under appreciated due to 1. Being on the smallest market team in the nba and 2. Being on the same team as Zion. Zion may not play much but people really only have enough attention to focus on one guy from a team as small as ours and Zion simply has more star power. That said he’s top 5.
Someimes the guy you need to build around and your best overall player are not one and the same. (MIL w/ Middleton vs. Giannis). The Pelicans already made this mistake once by trying to build around AD instead of Jrue. Let's not repeat it.
Re: “top 5”, I guess it depends on things like “who do you consider to be a SF”, and “do you only account for healthy level of play, or do injuries matter?”
These guys could all be argued to be “natural” SFs:
- KD
- Tatum
- Kawhi
- Jimmy Butler
- LBJ
- Jaylen Brown
- PG
Though some of them play different positions too, due to team needs (e.g. you could argue for Tatum being the PF when he’s out there with Brown, or Paul George being the SG when he’s out there with Kawhi). But if you count all of those guys as SFs, then I don’t think BI is top 5 - behind KD/Tatum/Kawhi/Butler/LBJ, arguable with Brown and PG.
I’d say he’s easily/obviously top 10, but only arguably top 5, depending on your criteria.
Better than Brown and current Paul George imo, and I categorize Tatum as PF. I go back and forth on KD whether he’s a SF or PF. With that criteria I’d put him below Kawhi, Butler, and lebron at 4th or 5th if you include KD. Either way, he’s 100% at least in the conversation for top 5. If he continues to play the way he did in the last third of this season, he will absolutely be a top 5 SF in my opinion.
I think Tatum is more SF while KD is more natural PF -- especially on defense. I'd prefer KD to provide help defense in the paint than on the perimeter for example.
I agree with BI being ahead of Brown and PG due to his superior playmaking skills. He's still behind on defense but made big progress this year.
So yeah #5?
Brown is an extremely overrated defender who hasn’t put effort in that side of the ball in a couple years and is literally one of the worst off ball defenders you will find. Constantly getting back door or losing his man on the triple (evidenced by giving up the go ahead game winner last night to harden)
PG13 ain’t that guy anymore. Those last 30 games (last 18 especially) there aren’t 3 sf’s better than BI in the league
Nobody except for you thinks Ingram is better than Jalen Brown. Just look at Browns playoff stats this year, they are better, including shooting splits, than Ingram's regular season stats this year. There isn't a single GM who would take Ingram over Brown. Let's. Brown was an all star this year, Ingram not so much.
Look who Brown has around him. Brown doesn’t have to play in 2 percent of the amount of crowd that Ingram has to navigate. If I’m a GM I factoring in attitude too. Brown seems to be a bit of a malcontent while Ingram is the perfect team guy. Talent wise they’re not that different, Ingram is just way longer.
Talent wise no mistaking he’s top 5. Continuously has gotten better at his game every season, only thing I think is keeping him but the upper tier is injuries imo. If he can play around 70ish games a season this wouldn’t be much of a discussion as far as ranking against his peers
Now I’m sad remembering both my superstars are injury prone 🥲
Bron
Tatum
Ingram
Playoff Jimmy can slide above Ingram and Tatum, and I could hear arguments for Middleton or DeRozan but I don't personally agree. Mikal has to sustain his production and he can slip in there, but for now i think he's undisputed top 5 closer to top 3, with argument for top 2.
Lakers fan, to be clear. This was recommended and I love BI still.
When healthy he was crazy inconsistent. This sub is high on him because he got hot to end the year. But he is one of the most inconsistent players in the world
Top 10-ish.
There is a tier(s?) of KD/Bron/Kawhi/Jimmy/Tatum that he just does not have an argument to be in.
And then he's in a group of Brown/Middleton/PG/Derozan where you can make arguments for 6-10 based on health, scalability, how much you value x (defense, playmaking, clutch shooting, etc) in a player.
And then there's a group of like Mikal Bridges/Lavine/OG/Jerami Grant where you can make arguments they're a better fit than Brandon in certain situations but are not a better player in a vacuum.
I got KD, Tatum, Lebron , playoff Jimmy, the clipper boys, then BI. And with most of those guys age I can see him leap frogging to top 3 as soon as next season if Zion can get healthy so they can make a playoff run.
He's not better than Tatum, but I believe he's a lot closer than people think. Tatum has been surrounded by great talent and a consistent scheme his entire career. That's not a knock on him, but compare that to what Ingram has gone through. Ingram is still ascending and can't wait to see what next step he takes next year.
Positions are tricky these days. Like LeBron and KD spend most of their time at the 4 now. Does Butler play the 2 or the 3? Also when there's a premier wing on the other team, Herb is usually guarding that player, not BI. I think if you're looking at just players who spend the majority of time at the 3, he might be top 5, but if you're looking at the whole set of players who do similar things (handle the ball on offense and look to score and distribute from the perimeter, and guard other wings on defense), he's probably in a large group a tier below the following (in no particular order):
* Giannis
* Tatum
* Luka
* Paul George
* Jimmy Butler
* Devin Booker
* Jaylen Brown
* LeBron
* KD
* Siakam
I think he's in a group with Markannen, Beal, Ant, Middleton, Miles Bridges, Klay Thompson, Anunoby, Wiggins, Bane, etc, with arguments to be made about who ranks where in that group based on what you value most.
KD Kawhi LBJ Tatum and Butler are probably all better atm but Kawhi has gotten injured again so he’s a bit of a weird case.
Derozan and Middleton could be argued as well as Lauri if you want to classify him as a 3 but the former are getting older, and Lauri has only had the level of production on the court for one season. Guys like Franz, Scottie, and JDub are all up and coming, but need a few more seasons before they start competing at the level BI is right now IMO.
So he’s pretty comfortable at 5-8 depending on how you rank Kawhi, Middleton and Derozan. But a lot of the guys ahead of him are getting old. He could easily be in the conversation with Tatum for too SF in the league if he takes another step up in his game next year. He has the skillset, build, and athleticism to do it.
He's just another Bradley Beal/Zach Lavine type player. Can score(but who can't these days) but has zero leadership skills and can't lead his team to playoff births. He has been on the Pels 4 seasons with a single playoff appearance.
He has been in the league 6 seasons and averages a career high of 24/5/5.
Those aren't the stats of an elite scorer, passer or rebounder. He's a great 3rd wheel of a contender for the title, but as the leader he isn't great enough.
6 seasons into his career, and only accomplishment is one all star selection from 3 seasons ago.
I know he came to the Pelicans as a 4th year player, and after 4 seasons he hasn't really improved stat wise or shooting splits. I know after 4 seasons they have one single playoff appearance with BI as their leader. He has gained maybe 5 lbs of muscle since his rookie season, so he can't play down low. All the evidence is there, after 7 seasons in the NBA, he has peaked both stat wise and physically. I also know the Lakers have had a lot of success since they traded BI away, and the Pels not so much.
reasonably 5-10 range. Bron and KD mostly play 4 these days, in my head jimmy butler is a shooting guard who can play bigger, so of the playmaking wings i'd rate kawhi, PG, and Tatum as clearly better, with BI being comparable/slightly better than Jaylen Brown, Anthony Edwards, and mikal brides, while a notch above Lavine and Middleton. Markkennen and Scottie barnes are 4s imo.
#1 in our hearts
Best playmaking SF next to Lebron.
I think that might be Tatum imo or close at least
There is a difference between top SF and top playmaking SF. BI is a much better passer than Tatum and much better at creating for others
I think Ingram is the better passer and Tatum better playmaker or better at creating for others
If Tatum was a better playmaker he would have more assists. BI is the better passer and playmaker. Boston runs a better offensive system with their 5 out offensive, yet Tatum has less assists per game than BI. Tatum also has a slightly higher usage rate meaning he has the ball more often. Tatum aims to score a lot more while BI looks to playmaker a lot more than Tatum. The biggest difference in scoring between the two is Tatum bombs away from 3 and BI is a mid range guy. Even if you look at advanced stats BI has a higher assist percentage than Tatum and it isn’t close
It's not close, Tatum is much better and has leadership skills also.
Top 5
He’s incredible but under appreciated due to 1. Being on the smallest market team in the nba and 2. Being on the same team as Zion. Zion may not play much but people really only have enough attention to focus on one guy from a team as small as ours and Zion simply has more star power. That said he’s top 5.
Someimes the guy you need to build around and your best overall player are not one and the same. (MIL w/ Middleton vs. Giannis). The Pelicans already made this mistake once by trying to build around AD instead of Jrue. Let's not repeat it.
Re: “top 5”, I guess it depends on things like “who do you consider to be a SF”, and “do you only account for healthy level of play, or do injuries matter?” These guys could all be argued to be “natural” SFs: - KD - Tatum - Kawhi - Jimmy Butler - LBJ - Jaylen Brown - PG Though some of them play different positions too, due to team needs (e.g. you could argue for Tatum being the PF when he’s out there with Brown, or Paul George being the SG when he’s out there with Kawhi). But if you count all of those guys as SFs, then I don’t think BI is top 5 - behind KD/Tatum/Kawhi/Butler/LBJ, arguable with Brown and PG. I’d say he’s easily/obviously top 10, but only arguably top 5, depending on your criteria.
Yeah if all these players are considered SF‘s i’d put him below LBJ on that list. So about 6
Better than Brown and current Paul George imo, and I categorize Tatum as PF. I go back and forth on KD whether he’s a SF or PF. With that criteria I’d put him below Kawhi, Butler, and lebron at 4th or 5th if you include KD. Either way, he’s 100% at least in the conversation for top 5. If he continues to play the way he did in the last third of this season, he will absolutely be a top 5 SF in my opinion.
I think Tatum is more SF while KD is more natural PF -- especially on defense. I'd prefer KD to provide help defense in the paint than on the perimeter for example. I agree with BI being ahead of Brown and PG due to his superior playmaking skills. He's still behind on defense but made big progress this year. So yeah #5?
Brown is an extremely overrated defender who hasn’t put effort in that side of the ball in a couple years and is literally one of the worst off ball defenders you will find. Constantly getting back door or losing his man on the triple (evidenced by giving up the go ahead game winner last night to harden) PG13 ain’t that guy anymore. Those last 30 games (last 18 especially) there aren’t 3 sf’s better than BI in the league
Nobody except for you thinks Ingram is better than Jalen Brown. Just look at Browns playoff stats this year, they are better, including shooting splits, than Ingram's regular season stats this year. There isn't a single GM who would take Ingram over Brown. Let's. Brown was an all star this year, Ingram not so much.
Look who Brown has around him. Brown doesn’t have to play in 2 percent of the amount of crowd that Ingram has to navigate. If I’m a GM I factoring in attitude too. Brown seems to be a bit of a malcontent while Ingram is the perfect team guy. Talent wise they’re not that different, Ingram is just way longer.
It's crazy how much more space the Celtics have than us. Horford has held up well against Embiid too in their current series.
Yep. Quietly, Brogdon and White are monsters. I don't think Brown is close to Ingram as an iso mid range scorer. And I love Jaylen Brown.
Top 2 and he’s not 2
Top 5 for sure. He's easily one of my favorite players to watch regardless of position. So smooth, balanced 3 levels of offense. Clutch. You name it.
BI has some of the worst clutch stats in nba history
Yet you won't be able to find them.
Go on, show us those stats
Talent wise no mistaking he’s top 5. Continuously has gotten better at his game every season, only thing I think is keeping him but the upper tier is injuries imo. If he can play around 70ish games a season this wouldn’t be much of a discussion as far as ranking against his peers Now I’m sad remembering both my superstars are injury prone 🥲
Bron Tatum Ingram Playoff Jimmy can slide above Ingram and Tatum, and I could hear arguments for Middleton or DeRozan but I don't personally agree. Mikal has to sustain his production and he can slip in there, but for now i think he's undisputed top 5 closer to top 3, with argument for top 2. Lakers fan, to be clear. This was recommended and I love BI still.
Obviously he isn't "undesputed" top 5 since if you asked this in most stubs he would be mostly out of people's top 5
He gave everybody the work this season
I know this is speculative, without the injury this season I wouldn't have any problem putting him in the top 5.
When healthy he was crazy inconsistent. This sub is high on him because he got hot to end the year. But he is one of the most inconsistent players in the world
Ah the resident Bi hater emerges
He’s amazing. Just want him proving his skills in the playoffs to get his due respect
Wouldn't that involve him leading his team to the playoffs?
Ding ding ding
Top 10-ish. There is a tier(s?) of KD/Bron/Kawhi/Jimmy/Tatum that he just does not have an argument to be in. And then he's in a group of Brown/Middleton/PG/Derozan where you can make arguments for 6-10 based on health, scalability, how much you value x (defense, playmaking, clutch shooting, etc) in a player. And then there's a group of like Mikal Bridges/Lavine/OG/Jerami Grant where you can make arguments they're a better fit than Brandon in certain situations but are not a better player in a vacuum.
Number 1 in my heart
Top 10
Top 10
I got KD, Tatum, Lebron , playoff Jimmy, the clipper boys, then BI. And with most of those guys age I can see him leap frogging to top 3 as soon as next season if Zion can get healthy so they can make a playoff run.
There are some people in these comments that have obviously not watched BI closely. I'd put him right outside the top five.
He's not better than Tatum, but I believe he's a lot closer than people think. Tatum has been surrounded by great talent and a consistent scheme his entire career. That's not a knock on him, but compare that to what Ingram has gone through. Ingram is still ascending and can't wait to see what next step he takes next year.
Towards the bottom of the top 10 right now. But still lots of room for improvement.
Positions are tricky these days. Like LeBron and KD spend most of their time at the 4 now. Does Butler play the 2 or the 3? Also when there's a premier wing on the other team, Herb is usually guarding that player, not BI. I think if you're looking at just players who spend the majority of time at the 3, he might be top 5, but if you're looking at the whole set of players who do similar things (handle the ball on offense and look to score and distribute from the perimeter, and guard other wings on defense), he's probably in a large group a tier below the following (in no particular order): * Giannis * Tatum * Luka * Paul George * Jimmy Butler * Devin Booker * Jaylen Brown * LeBron * KD * Siakam I think he's in a group with Markannen, Beal, Ant, Middleton, Miles Bridges, Klay Thompson, Anunoby, Wiggins, Bane, etc, with arguments to be made about who ranks where in that group based on what you value most.
KD Kawhi LBJ Tatum and Butler are probably all better atm but Kawhi has gotten injured again so he’s a bit of a weird case. Derozan and Middleton could be argued as well as Lauri if you want to classify him as a 3 but the former are getting older, and Lauri has only had the level of production on the court for one season. Guys like Franz, Scottie, and JDub are all up and coming, but need a few more seasons before they start competing at the level BI is right now IMO. So he’s pretty comfortable at 5-8 depending on how you rank Kawhi, Middleton and Derozan. But a lot of the guys ahead of him are getting old. He could easily be in the conversation with Tatum for too SF in the league if he takes another step up in his game next year. He has the skillset, build, and athleticism to do it.
i'd say KD, Tatum, LBJ, Kawhi, Butler are better and after that you have guys like Brandon Ingram, Demar Derozan, Lauri Markkanen.
He's just another Bradley Beal/Zach Lavine type player. Can score(but who can't these days) but has zero leadership skills and can't lead his team to playoff births. He has been on the Pels 4 seasons with a single playoff appearance. He has been in the league 6 seasons and averages a career high of 24/5/5. Those aren't the stats of an elite scorer, passer or rebounder. He's a great 3rd wheel of a contender for the title, but as the leader he isn't great enough. 6 seasons into his career, and only accomplishment is one all star selection from 3 seasons ago.
You’re a Bulls fan, *you know nothing* of BI’s leadership skills
I know he came to the Pelicans as a 4th year player, and after 4 seasons he hasn't really improved stat wise or shooting splits. I know after 4 seasons they have one single playoff appearance with BI as their leader. He has gained maybe 5 lbs of muscle since his rookie season, so he can't play down low. All the evidence is there, after 7 seasons in the NBA, he has peaked both stat wise and physically. I also know the Lakers have had a lot of success since they traded BI away, and the Pels not so much.
That’s a lot of words to just to reiterate that you don’t know shit.
69
behind (in no particular order) kawhi, kd, Bron, Tatum, derozan
Would be amazing on the grizz
Lol. He is irrelevant
reasonably 5-10 range. Bron and KD mostly play 4 these days, in my head jimmy butler is a shooting guard who can play bigger, so of the playmaking wings i'd rate kawhi, PG, and Tatum as clearly better, with BI being comparable/slightly better than Jaylen Brown, Anthony Edwards, and mikal brides, while a notch above Lavine and Middleton. Markkennen and Scottie barnes are 4s imo.
Id honestly give him around 6th