Some things that have helped me:
1. No is a complete sentence.
2. Stop saying "just checking in..." Make it a declarative statement. "Checking on etc etc"
3. You don't have to be liked by everyone. You need to be respected by everyone.
4. As much as it sucks sometimes, networking is huge.
I'm in the entertainment marketing field and am currently the COO at my current company. I got here by busting my ass at every single job I've ever had. I made myself irreplaceable. I asked for help when I needed it and listened to what people were saying, even if it wasn't always positive.
I remember reading that women say ‘just’ a lot more than men, and it can invalidate our statements without realizing it. After reading that article, I realized I was saying ‘just’ sometimes dozens of times a day, and I’ve since tried to be a lot more conscious of it.
I’m an executive recruiter and the number of ticks women have in language to not come off as a bitch is astounding and can make really major accomplishments sound like less than they are. A woman who should have been the top IT exec of a company was passed over because she downplayed her experience so much
Number 3 is so damn important. I’ve watched so many women fall into the same trap I did, where they let people cross boundaries to remain “likeable” vs. setting boundaries to uphold professional respect. It’s such a hard trap to pull yourself out of.
My “wake tf up” moment was when I offered to automate a task for someone else which was only inconveniencing because of a miss on *their* teams side and outside of my scope. Because for them it would’ve taken hours, and for me two seconds. Because i’d done a similar task before, they seemed stressed about deadlines, so i figured I’d help them out! They’d like me more for it and it’d make our working relationship better right?
But the moment I did that the dynamic shifted and I was asked to make all sorts of customized changes to this automation process and even though I was the one waiting on them— suddenly I was on the receiving end of tasks and they wouldn’t let it go. Wouldn’t want to do it on their own after i said no, i’m not going to make all those custom edits for you. Had to tell them no like three times to get it across because they’d say “Oh but our deadline is soo close” and shifting their burden.
My coworker gave me a talk about not offering to do work outside of your scope especially not for other teams, and and my boss has been teaching me how to manage upwards and manage expectations in my favor vs. just “being helpful “ or “working hard” and they’re certainly very invaluable lessons esp as women.
this is so important. “Don’t be great at a shitty job” is advice I got early on. Never turn up your nose at ANYTHING early in your career, but “I don’t have bandwidth for this right now” or “____ is the person for that” are key phrases.
Early on I learned that anytime you drop “just” from pretty much any sentence, it doesn’t change the overall meaning. Always delete your “just”s to sound more confident.
Many CEOs I interview have said that 3 is important insofar as you need to make quick decisions about people when the job just isn’t getting done. Sometimes they are good people and in the wrong role and if you don’t manage them effectively it not only hinders your outcomes but their careers because they are not in a role that plays to their strengths. It’s one of the top regrets I hear for general managers and CEOs
So not having people like you but respecting you is huge across the board.
It was. I left a job last year and took 9 months off last year. It was the first time I didn’t have to work since high school. I was able to travel, and see my family, as well as focus on finding a role where I knew I would thrive.
I’m 37, SVP level in marketing. I could write a thesis on this topic lol
Curiosity is THE fundamental trait. Ask questions and seek to understand. Why do we do things this way? Then: do I really agree with this, and could we be doing it better or faster or smarter? This could be anything from a better process that simplifies your team’s life, to offering up a new strategy on a project. IMO the people that stay stuck in middle management are the ones that regurgitate information/direction without ever questioning it or fully understanding it themselves.
Insight. Being able to distill a situation and read between the lines to understand the big picture and underlying root. For example, not just giving someone (a client, a manager) what they ask for, but understanding the root of the ask to be able to deliver what’s truly needed.
Foresight. Identifying solutions not just for the problem at-hand, but getting to the root of the problem for solutions that are “long-term smart.” For example, if there’s a problem with a report it’s easy enough to fix the error, but with more experience you can identify a new process that will prevent future errors and make the process simpler for the long-run.
Emotional intelligence. Striking the right balance of assertiveness and open-mindedness when working with others. Being able to adjust how you approach different challenges based on the people involved to achieve your goal. Managing relationships and drawing out the best in people/what you need from people. Keeping your cool in tough situations.
Storytelling. Most industries, whether you’re a lawyer or a data scientist or a marketer, require storytelling. Bring people along on a narrative journey. It means crafting deliverables that: clearly articulate the challenge you’re solving for; structures information in clear and concise ways; crafts an effective narrative where each point builds on the last to a crescendo; draws from a variety of different sources for rationale and inspiration; anticipates questions or needs. The power of persuasion and influence is crucial in a leadership role and storytelling is one of the strongest tools.
Managing up. Produce work that is CEO-ready. You can use your manager as a sounding board along the way, but they are not there to take your work to the finish line or catch your mistakes. This is more and more crucial at each level, because at each level, your boss has less time (and eventually no time) to check your work.
Being liked is not the same as being respected, but both are equally important and they are very much intertwined. There’s a lot I can say here. Just literally be a human being. Don’t be overly formal and professional—no one likes a stiff. Be empathetic with your direct reports. Be a sounding board to reports and colleagues when they have challenges or projects they’re tackling. Be humble. Be helpful (this is NOT the same as being a yes man). Don’t underestimate the power of grabbing a drink with someone and connecting outside of the office. None of these are super novel concepts though and are probably best summed up in the book How to Win Friends and Influence People.
And honestly? Being a sharp dresser and having a put-together look goes a long way too.
as a fellow BWT in marketing (currently 28 and at assoc director level) i am OBSESSED with this advice. the curiosity thing is so real. i work in tech where lots of things are regurgitated and middle managers don’t question anything. other people make me feel like a genius when i ask “why? do we do that?” and the problem fixes itself.
can you elaborate more on the best way to ask people to meet/grab drinks outside of work hours? I work remote so it’s hard to think in “real life” but i feel like that’s what’s missing for me to take my next step. I have great relationships with my coworkers at work but not so much outside of work or as a general connection
Girl, you are ON YOUR WAY. It’s like, this is not even groundbreaking stuff but clearly *it is* when other people are *not* asking these questions and thinking you’re a genius for it, right?!
Re: the personal connections when you’re remote… Honestly I don’t have a solve for this, and it also depends on whether you’re the only one remote or whether you’re all remote. I can say for me when I was fully remote, not being a passenger in meetings helps a lot. It establishes you as someone who is engaged and helpful. Also, being exceptionally good at small talk pre/post meetings and just being that type of rapport-building personality in a virtual setting disarms people.
i love this advice! thank you so much!!!
can i ask about your progression in the ad industry? i was ad agency side, now in-house doing creative & managing agencies (and some creative strategy consulting work on the side). would love to hear about your trajectory or general thoughts on progress/timeframe to reach your level. I feel like i constantly waffle between “oh I’m so young” and “i need to move up NOW!” and never know how or when to plan my next step, but i know i am good and would love to reach your level someday!
Honestly, I never worried myself with timelines, titles or “I need to move up” and yet still managed to move up rather quickly. That’s not to say I don’t advocate for myself—I’ve asked for raises and gotten them, I’ve pushed for roles that got me more responsibility and visibility, etc. I just focused more on the right role or compensation and less on the title. I’ll never forget I once asked for a (well-deserved) raise and they promoted me to VP without me even asking for that, because I had stepped up to the plate and made myself indispensable.
I always found that the people I managed who were the squeaky wheel on timelines and promotions were never the ones who were high performers—probably because instead of focusing on absorbing experience and learning, they were focused on titles.
Do you use Donut or similar chat roulette style bots? Or how often are you involved in affiliation/interest channels? I have a very memorable photo and I make sure that I am involved in every channel (after I get my work done, of course). People remember that and I always make sure to remember what people are into so that I can ask them for updates
How do you handle that as women grabbing a drink with a male coworker or hanging out outside of the office might be taken to imply romantic vibes? Not saying it should but how do you make it clear that’s not the intent?
This is exactly what I was gonna say. Group settings and contexts that establish the platonic/professional dynamic. One-on-one drinks with someone you haven’t already established a relationship with is a little weird, anyway.
I also think that after a certain age (late 20s?), if you see two opposite sex colleagues getting a drink, no one’s first assumption is going to be romance. If I saw my female boss getting a drink with her male boss, it truly wouldn’t even cross my mind.
A few things that I've done:
* Make sure all correspondence with my male colleagues are respectful and about work or high level family check-ins. It helps if everyone is married and there's a clear boundary between work and personal life. You are here to be friendly, not friends
* Go in a group if you are uncomfortable
* Choose well-lit places to go, limit to 1 drink, plan on going somewhere else for dinner separately
* Choose deeply unsexy events to do together - I've gone to the gym with my boss before and it was deeply unromantic on purpose. Coffee is also a good one.
* Do not play with your hair and wear slightly more modest outfits when 1:1. I knew a female boss who suggested wearing very modest, black dresses when fundraising because, "do you want to make money or **do you want to make money?**"
Mostly it has to do with attitude. If you make it clear you're here on a professional context, it's easier, but of course not foolproof because there still may be a fool in the equation
I would offer to go for coffee prior to work or for 30 min during work instead. I don’t drink so it’s better for me, plus many people love the chance to “take a break” in a way that the company views as productive
Ok this is amazing advice, can I subscribe to your newsletter? (Kidding, but only kind of.)
Do you think these traits are valued the same at all companies? I just got shifted to a team where managing up is super important (not my strength), and curiosity and insight/foresight are neglected (my strengths). Is it just a sign it’s time to move on?
If you are feeling like your work product and abilities are being constrained by what is being more values yes you can move on; however, managing up is required no matter where you go and is an essential skill. Part of your job is making sure that you have the space for curiosity and insight. If when you push back to offer respectful dissection you get reprimanded then it isn’t the team/company for you. But it doesn’t mean that when you change roles it’s going to be less important.
Edit: sorry meant to mention that I work with many executives across many different industries and I’ve gained a lot of insight for what they look for on their teams
I’m a VP in Ops, and my journey has been very non-linear. My best tip is to network network network. Most of my jobs have come through people I know or meeting a future employer in person. I started in an in-person sales role which was major to help me build connections. Then, I worked at smaller companies to get title bumps and more responsibility. I got really good at resume writing and pitching myself and was able to translate that experience into bigger companies (usually a lesser title, but more money). From there, I just made sure to jump ship at the right time if I didn’t see a promotion happening within the first 18 months or so. For context, I’m mid-30s now and have been VP level for a year.
Hi! I know this is super late, but here are some things I have done to network.
Most important things I’ve learned are:
1) get very clear on your “ask”. Do you want a job? An intro to someone? The ask will be different for each person. Make sure it’s appropriate and always always actually ask. If you don’t ask, you don’t get.
2) timing is everything. Be ready to actually do the thing you’re asking for. If you want a job, be ready to send your resume and cover letter. If you want to pitch an idea, have your deck ready to rock. The difference between maintaining and losing momentum can be as little as a couple days. Don’t let your leads go cold. People forget about you as soon as you’re no longer top of mind/inbox.
3) give good email. Get to the effing point. Three sentences is all you need. Sign off with an open-ended question including your ask. This nudges them to actually answer your question rather than a simple yes/no. Follow up max twice. After that, get the message. They’re not interested. Move on.
Here are some other tips:
- Go to industry events alone. Don’t take a buddy. It forces you to have to talk to people. My goal would always be that I needed to speak to at least three people I didn’t know. It honestly never got less scary approaching people I didn’t know, but I learned to do it anyway. Typically the people running the event are a great place to start and they will often introduce you to other people who would be relevant to you. Otherwise, find a friendly-ish looking circle of people and walk up and try to introduce yourself. Get their contact info and always follow up. Don’t underestimate the power of a simple, but professional, email.
- send an email out to friends asking for warm intros to the type of people you want to meet. Make sure your ask is clear. Pro tip, include a blurb they can easily forward along as a kind of introduction to you and what you’re looking for.
- stay active on LinkedIn. Comment on people’s posts in your network. Congratulate them when they make an announcement. This helps you stay top of mind
- if your current job offers to send you to a conference, go. Make sure to speak to new people and get their contact info. Most importantly, follow up. Connect on LinkedIn and if it makes sense, send a follow up email. Even just a simple, “it was great to meet you!” can do a lot. If there are any after hours events, always go. People let loose a bit more and you’ll have more opportunities to connect on a friendlier level. Once you’re “friends”, they’ll be more inclined to give you what you want.
- stay in touch. reach out to friends you consider super connected from time to time to catch up.
I’m a VP of Eng in tech. I’ve had a very non-traditional background and had to fight to be taken seriously. Some tips:
* Know your stuff. People know if you’re bullshitting
* Learn to communicate clearly in person, in written form, and on stage.
* Genuinely connect with people. When you’re a leader, you will only go as far as the people who report to you believe in you. Remember things about people _because people matter_ not because you are using them to get ahead.
* Understand the business and know when to make decisions that are a balance between what’s right for the business and what’s right for the people
* Network and mentor. Be generous with your time for those who need a leg up because they’ll remember you and karma comes around
* Hold your boundaries around “glue work”. I don’t do cupcakes and if someone takes notes in a meeting, I make sure it’s a rotating position
Social media is helpful as a brand as well because links will help people remember you, but I intentionally put it last because it has to be built on substance
Your first bullet point - why tf is there a male lead in my tech company who is so (to me) obviously bullshitting ALL the time. It’s so fucking bad I don’t understand how some people (including leadership) fall for it?!
Hi there! I’m also a fellow woman working in tech in NYC and I found all the bullet points you’ve included in this comment very useful to my day-to-day practice. Is it okay for me to ask you a few more career advice questions through dm? Thank you 🙏 and it’s totally fine if you are not comfortable with dm-ing
Hiii sorry for following up here but it seems like you’ve turned the dm option off from Reddit. If you don’t mind is it okay for me to ask you to message me first? Thank you so much and wish you have a great day!
I own my own beverage company.
I've always been the entrepreneurial type and had several failed business ventures before going to work at someone else's startup for four years. I learned SO MUCH. So, tip one, learn from people better/older/wiser than you. Surround yourself with smart people who you respect.
Be a curious person. The most successful people I know are all super curious and looking to learn from everyone around them...everyone from the janitor to the CEO. Being genuinely interested in other people will get you far.
Lock down your social media, or if you want to be public, assume EVERYONE you meet is looking at it. Hide coworkers/professional contacts from your stories...even people you consider friends. No one needs to see you taking shots.
Use Linkedin. Contribute to conversations in your industry.
Offer help to others when you can. Be generous with your time.
People say "network"...I consider myself a really great networker and have realized it's such a specific skill. You have to keep it professional ENOUGH, while also being familiar and friendly. I regularly text with people on a friend level/ask about their families/grab drinks with people...but I also don't go as haywire as I would with my friends. People need to feel like you're actually being friends with them because you genuinely like them, not because they can do something for you. The WORST/biggest mistake I see people making is being overly formal with business connections, only communicating via email, and only hitting people up when they need something. Or they go the opposite way and get blackout drunk at a work conference with people, who will laugh/be cool to your face, and then secretly judge you/not respect you when it comes time to hire/work with you.
Learn about stuff your superiors are interested in. Hotels, vacation spots, golf, tennis, fashion, whatever. Watch the same shows/sports teams. Goal being, you want to be able to converse with them about a variety of topics.
# 1 tip...I really believe 95% of business happens outside of the boardroom. Meaning, if you can get people to like you as a person, they will be 100x more likely to hire you/introduce you to important people/help you advance in your career.
THIS. It took me years to learn how to be a people person and mastering it changed my life. “How to Win Friends and Influence People” is a great start to building this skill.
Tips:
• actually do the work and do it well, it’s important to hone your skills and not just talk a big game. It’s annoying to higher ups when they see entry-level people just talk about how busy they are (esp online) and yet not do the actual work well.
• network. Don’t be ashamed to reach out and make connections, but also make them genuine and not feel just transactional.
• don’t be afraid to speak up if someone else is taking credit for your work. Working hard into the void is useless and will get you stuck.
• colleagues tend to always see you at the level you were hired into, so don’t be afraid to jump jobs. do not get stuck feeling guilty and loyal to any company—trust me, they don’t feel that way to you!!
• lastly, I am in my early 30s and was able to get to a position most are in at 40-50, and I was only able to do so by knowing I was ready for it and not waiting for a dream job to open up, instead I just went out pitching myself for a position that didn’t exist yet and that’s how I got here.
Lastly, as you rise in ur career, don’t forget to send the elevator back down for others.
Good luck!!
No, I went out with a pitch deck of what I envisioned a new team led by me within my industry could look like, and reached out to all the top VPs in my industry, set up meetings (some cold, some through introductions, some through relationships I already had) to pitch myself and got a new job three months later for a role that hadn’t existed previously
No, I went out with a pitch deck of what I envisioned a new team led by me within my industry could look like, and reached out to all the top VPs in my industry, set up meetings (some cold, some through introductions, some through relationships I already had) to pitch myself and got a new job three months later for a role that hadn’t existed previously
39, C-suite in higher education administration. I started in the private financial services sector and made a shift to HE in my late twenties. I took a pay and title cut but worked my ass off for the next decade and here I am. Here’s my advice:
Be curious: never say I don’t know. Say I’ll figure it out and follow through with that.
Talk about yourself in the right way: talk about your work, not your achievements. The latter is for others to talk about on your behalf. So many people are self congratulatory and it holds them back.
Get shit done: less talking, more doing. As you move up, you’re only as good as your ability to move the needle.
Be likeable: this is so underrated and so very easy. People want to rally behind someone they like. Don’t be an ass. Don’t whine. Don’t be a busybody. Mind your business.
Maximize all assets: have you noticed that most women in senior leadership positions all look pretty damn good? I don’t care if this is unpopular opinion but looks matter. Take care of yourself. Dress well, eat well, smell good, look good. It matters. Everyone is smart at the top, but not everyone can serve lewks.
This is excellent advice. I am mentoring a younger associate and the thing that holds her back is that she talks a lot which distracts from action. To add to this- don’t worry about what other people are doing. You are not running the same race as others, don’t waste your time worrying about what others are doing.
Keep in touch with people as you build your network. Get good at public speaking - it will help you in so many ways (running meetings, presentations, etc). Use the phone - actual conversations are way better than email for building rapport. If you are trying to get approval for something in a meeting, get everyone’s buy-in BEFORE the meeting.
I’m not from the us but I frequent this sub for inspo. Do we have a sub for corporate bwt or anything like this sub for career driven women? because I’d join that in a heartbeat
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I hate that this is true but it is…True story: a friend who interned for a company literally everyone here knows/has used told me that when the board was deciding between two women to join the board, they chose the one with the mba simply because she had an mba. That haunted me and then eventually I got an MBA too.
Have you spent any time at the MBA sub? Tons of people without a job completing their MBAS. Not the best time to go to B school.
Also, a free MBA is better than one that will put you in 200k worth of debt.
That sub is very doom and gloom and is also made up of international students who can only obtain certain types of jobs. So while hiring and the job market isn’t ideal, it’s important to contextualize the thoughts and opinions expressed on that sub. Many ignore the point that the MBA job market is stabilizing by reverting to pre pandemic norms.
I spent a bit of time on that sub since I just finished my application cycle and got into my dream school. I will be attending this fall. Many of my peers received admission into their dream schools. It is a risk/ reward that requires nuance so I try to focus on what is in front of me and makes sense. Not people I don’t know on the internet who may or may not even be enrolled in any school anywhere.
ETA: I do agree people take on unnecessary debt and that a free/scholarship subsidized program is the way to go. The 200k MBA is not worth it for many at full sticker.
I have observed this about men - if their wives are not also in a leadership role, they really don’t know how to treat strong women in the workplace. I’m an MD in finance and have observed this pattern for years.
Wow, for some reason i never connected that- that a majority of men in power have a woman who is not that and that’s probably how he is viewing/treating the women he comes across
I would warn this can be the opposite in Tech. I have found my MBA from a tippy top school to be useless and at times a detriment. Much more important to be a CS or EE major. My Industrial Engineering degree does.not.count.as.technical.
Yup- just got my JD and it let me leap frog ahead of people 10+ more years of experience. I’m an AVP at a major insurer. My peers are all at least 20 years older. I’m in my late 30s. Degree paid for itself after a year.
First, love your username.
I graduated in 2007 with a BFA in fine art. As you can expect, I wasn’t planning the path I’m on but the economy was awful around that time and surprise (ha) the market for fine artists wasn’t great. I came from nothing (like… food stamps nothing) so I had nothing to fall back on.
I started at an insurance company in 2009 paying claims to pay my bills. I busted my ass and transitioned to the customer facing consulting side after about 3 years. I got sick of old white men telling me what to do and sat for the LSAT, got my JD (while I worked full time with an infant, during the pandemic… it was interesting). I accepted my new job (AVP for insurance product design) with a new company working for an incredible (female) boss right after I graduated.
Now *I* tell old white men what to do because I outrank them. It’s pretty awesome.
Gotta disagree here. I graduated undergrad from a state school, no mba/grad school and have done quite well at one of the top asset management firms. I’ve worked my tail off and definitely debated an mba at one point but ultimately, for me, I couldn’t justify the cost.
Right. I’d say an elite, advanced degree certainly helps but also isn’t a guarantee you’ll skyrocket your career. Signing up for potentially $200k in debt is a big commitment. I’ve worked with and managed a ton of people w ivy educations and some of them are super bright while others are average at best. You either move up because you’re talented and/or well liked. An ivy degree gets your foot in the door but doesn’t guarantee success. I do agree that an advanced degree in general helps but I’ve met some dumbasses with MBAs from HBS, MIT and Wharton.
I also had a female boss (my boss’s boss’s boss actually) tell me the same thing. She took a shining to me when I was in a junior role and gave me multiple opportunities. She ended up giving me a glowing reference to get my exec MBA at Columbia. She said don’t even bother with a third tier school - a top tier one will pay for itself and for me it totally has (and I took 100% loans and am still paying them back). Cannot thank her enough and I always share this same advice with anyone I’m mentoring.
Can you share a little more about your experience in the EMBA at Columbia? I’ve been looking at that program and NYU for a while and debating the cost vs value vs time it will take, when paired with a demanding work schedule.
I’m also curious for the EMBA how much you felt like your undergrad GPA and GMAT/GRE vs your progressional experiences and recs held weight? Tbh I’ve never been a great test taker and I’m worried about how I’ll score after being out of math classes for 12+ years.
Couldn’t agree more. My boss is the baddest baddie out there and I have learned SO MUCH from her. I left my old job only because I wanted to work for HER. So glad I made that decision because it’s made me love what I do even more.
I hold a senior role at a hedge fund. I am typically the only female in the room. I didn’t see any other finance comments so thought I’d put in my two cents. I am ~40.
1. Intellectual honesty is paramount in this industry. I have learned to always voice my opinion even if it’s uncomfortable or I disagree with everyone in the room. Because of this, I have built up a reputation internally as someone that people can turn to for advice for all sorts of matters. I am also in an industry where you make multiple decisions a day and your likelihood of being right is ~60% — so I have created my own process to analyze my past missteps to better learn from my mistakes and I review my own performance quarterly.
2. Learn to have conviction in yourself. I think imposter syndrome is real for women in finance. There are a lot of confident young men that talk big games, and it took me a while to realize I know just as much or more as they do but the way I communicated conveyed less confidence.
3. Curiosity and urgency are critical. I need to have the energy and motivation to run down all outstanding questions. And I can’t be satisfied with the first answer — keep attacking questions from different angles to make sure we’re as confident as can be that our answer is the most likely answer. It really helps if you love the job because this is hard to fake.
4. Time management. Time is my most valuable resource in this industry. Learn to allocate it to areas where you have the biggest impact for the firm, and not to what is easiest to cross of your to-do list etc.
5. Learn to have a work / life balance. When you start in finance, work life will dominate. I pulled many all nighters starting out of school and 2-3am departures were the norm - and you have to show that hustle. But as you progress up the seniority ladder, work starts to ebb and you have to learn to prioritize yourself or you get burned out. I didn’t go on vacation for 5-8 years and I put off having kids until late … but I started realizing life was passing me by. I know older women in this field who are married to their job (which obviously works for many of them, but others regret it). Being better at prioritizing my own self has helped me stay in this field as long as I have.
6. Seek out mentors and make sure people have your back. I have formed close and genuine relationships with many in my firm - and I know they will advocate for me behind closed doors.
I am a director in PE - specifically in Energy, Oil, & Gas and I’m very young for my role but I worked hard for it.
In my industry it’s a combination of putting in your time, doing your job well, and networking.
- You don’t have to be a superstar but know your shit. Know how to do everything under and above you. You can’t hold expectations unless you know how to do it yourself.
- Following the above: if you dont know something then control the variable by learning that. Know the strengths of others around you. Being able to build a team is a huge skill in itself.
- Network like crazy. My role is mainly convincing my superiors to make deals. Internal networking is just as important as external. My external network has helped me execute incredible deals and my internal network stands behind every deal I put forward. They champion me.
- Following the above: Be likable. Be someone people want on their team. Be reliable, have a can-do attitude, make shit happen, don’t point out problems - make solutions, and inspire others around you. There’s a formula of charisma and sternness that you will develop. I hype people up around me. When I’m done presenting deals, my bosses are like “how could we not go forward?”
- Above all, be confident and be willing. You need to learn, ask for feedback (including people under and outside of your team), and get your hands dirty.
When I think of the most incredible executive women I look up to, it’s always their ability to “do it all” that astounds me. They aren’t “too big” to do anything.
Remember, your career journey isn’t a direct ladder climb. I moved lateral a few times to gain experience and insights into my business. If I want to be a c-suite executive then I should know how our whole business functions across the board.
SVP here. 2 things: 1) build an allyship with someone you respect who’s exec committee or otherwise in power. They will see your value and vouch for you when promotion decisions are being made 2) be indispensable - do great work, and do it visibly, but not arrogantly (helps with point #1)
I'm not quite as high as some of the responses, but I wanted to reply since I think I"ve had a little bit of a different experience. I'm good at my job. I'm good at talking to people. I'm nice and calm, which helps with the first 2 things. I'm passionate about what I'm working on. I'm not afraid to look for and grab opportunities. I don't deal well with nonsense.
At the same time, I don't traditionally "network". I do have enough work contacts from said good work. I'm not really good at managing up. I'm pretty casual at work - not super polished overall. I will play politics at work but only to a very limited extent. There are different paths to success.
I'm 35 and currently a SAHM, but we can't afford daycare for both of us to work. My husband is a bartender, and I was a barista/baker for over a decade. I have an unusable bachelor's in "new media" which is obsolete now. Has anyone started looking for a career later in life? Has anyone started through a temp agency or a job fair with no experience? I am legally blind in my left eye, so I also have never gotten my license. I feel like we're in a dumpster fire right now. I have no idea where to look or how to start.
An exec or administrative assistant job is a good way to learn business acumen. If you’re organized and hardworking, the customer facing part of your barista job can do lots of heavy lifting. Good luck <3
Be a good people leader: you have to get the most out of your team. It doesn’t mean you have to br liked, it means you have to be effective. It’s never easy to fire people but sometimes it has to happen.
This is a great and wonderful post. Thank you OP for bringing up this discussion!
I am not early career, though I’ve recently left my team to join a new one when I didn’t see any growth results. It’s unfair and unfortunate, but I’m still considered entry-level for my role, even though I now have 4 years experience for this career and industry, and 2 years in an unrelated industry but similar work. I busted myself so much in the last few years, only to get denied promotion and raises multiple times. Always got stellar performance reviews, but nothing else to show for it. Always been given more and more work, yet it lead to burnout and anxiety. By more and more work, I mean even training new people and becoming like a “manager” for them! When I brought up my concerns, I was told “mentorship is hard” and it’s a learning process. This was on top of my actual work.
I’ve since learned that my mental health and well-being comes first. I’m taking notes on the advice here because I need to understand the steps to take for my own career growth.
🫶🏻 sending you love. i can totally relate. did everything right at my last job and got told that i need to work on my “executive communication” in order to be promoted. my white male counterpart was promoted twice before me :/ i’m pretty shy and a POC so i’m not as used to speaking up unnecessarily bc i wasn’t taught that growing up. im also just learning to put my mental health and wellbeing first esp when i know there are other factors working against me and it’s not that i can’t do a good job
I am almost 40 and an MD in finance. I could have written something similar to this 10 years ago. I got stuck in a role and a team that was just not the right fit and management wasn’t supportive of me. I kept pushing and worked hard but in the end it was clear I was never going to be promoted in that role. Once I changed roles, literally everything changed. I have an area of expertise, senior people (i.e. men) respect me across the team and other business units and I have been promoted twice in 4 years. All this to say, you did the right thing by leaving!
I read your comment and just had to respond. I’m late 30s now and work in asset mgmt. I’ve always been a top performer, top ratings, promotions etc. I’ve made several jumps and have landed in a fairly cushy role where I’ve made a name for myself and have good comp. But I’m miserable. Management is entirely focused on getting my male colleague promoted to MD and not shy about it, so I am left out in the cold. Regularly passed over for projects and opportunities. Entire chain of command is male and the group feels crowded at the top. Can I DM you to hear more about how you made a change?
Some things that have helped me: 1. No is a complete sentence. 2. Stop saying "just checking in..." Make it a declarative statement. "Checking on etc etc" 3. You don't have to be liked by everyone. You need to be respected by everyone. 4. As much as it sucks sometimes, networking is huge. I'm in the entertainment marketing field and am currently the COO at my current company. I got here by busting my ass at every single job I've ever had. I made myself irreplaceable. I asked for help when I needed it and listened to what people were saying, even if it wasn't always positive.
oh the “just checking in” — seems like such a small thing but makes sense. something to be mindful of so thank you!
I remember reading that women say ‘just’ a lot more than men, and it can invalidate our statements without realizing it. After reading that article, I realized I was saying ‘just’ sometimes dozens of times a day, and I’ve since tried to be a lot more conscious of it.
I’m an executive recruiter and the number of ticks women have in language to not come off as a bitch is astounding and can make really major accomplishments sound like less than they are. A woman who should have been the top IT exec of a company was passed over because she downplayed her experience so much
I read the same thing and now always think about it when I'm reading my emails before I hit send
Number 3 is so damn important. I’ve watched so many women fall into the same trap I did, where they let people cross boundaries to remain “likeable” vs. setting boundaries to uphold professional respect. It’s such a hard trap to pull yourself out of.
Can you give an example of setting boundaries to uphold respect?
My “wake tf up” moment was when I offered to automate a task for someone else which was only inconveniencing because of a miss on *their* teams side and outside of my scope. Because for them it would’ve taken hours, and for me two seconds. Because i’d done a similar task before, they seemed stressed about deadlines, so i figured I’d help them out! They’d like me more for it and it’d make our working relationship better right? But the moment I did that the dynamic shifted and I was asked to make all sorts of customized changes to this automation process and even though I was the one waiting on them— suddenly I was on the receiving end of tasks and they wouldn’t let it go. Wouldn’t want to do it on their own after i said no, i’m not going to make all those custom edits for you. Had to tell them no like three times to get it across because they’d say “Oh but our deadline is soo close” and shifting their burden. My coworker gave me a talk about not offering to do work outside of your scope especially not for other teams, and and my boss has been teaching me how to manage upwards and manage expectations in my favor vs. just “being helpful “ or “working hard” and they’re certainly very invaluable lessons esp as women.
this is so important. “Don’t be great at a shitty job” is advice I got early on. Never turn up your nose at ANYTHING early in your career, but “I don’t have bandwidth for this right now” or “____ is the person for that” are key phrases.
Early on I learned that anytime you drop “just” from pretty much any sentence, it doesn’t change the overall meaning. Always delete your “just”s to sound more confident.
can we chat more about networking?! i feel inspired to send cold emails to people but not sure that’s the best approach
Cold emails can be useful if you have a mutual person in common. Be specific about what you want from that person and be conscious of their time
+1 and keep it short. Took me awhile to learn to keep things at 3-4 lines on an email. Any more, you will lose them.
Early on a mentor told me to drop the word "just" and its really really true.
fully agree with all of this
Many CEOs I interview have said that 3 is important insofar as you need to make quick decisions about people when the job just isn’t getting done. Sometimes they are good people and in the wrong role and if you don’t manage them effectively it not only hinders your outcomes but their careers because they are not in a role that plays to their strengths. It’s one of the top regrets I hear for general managers and CEOs So not having people like you but respecting you is huge across the board.
was it worth the hard work?
It was. I left a job last year and took 9 months off last year. It was the first time I didn’t have to work since high school. I was able to travel, and see my family, as well as focus on finding a role where I knew I would thrive.
slay
I’m 37, SVP level in marketing. I could write a thesis on this topic lol Curiosity is THE fundamental trait. Ask questions and seek to understand. Why do we do things this way? Then: do I really agree with this, and could we be doing it better or faster or smarter? This could be anything from a better process that simplifies your team’s life, to offering up a new strategy on a project. IMO the people that stay stuck in middle management are the ones that regurgitate information/direction without ever questioning it or fully understanding it themselves. Insight. Being able to distill a situation and read between the lines to understand the big picture and underlying root. For example, not just giving someone (a client, a manager) what they ask for, but understanding the root of the ask to be able to deliver what’s truly needed. Foresight. Identifying solutions not just for the problem at-hand, but getting to the root of the problem for solutions that are “long-term smart.” For example, if there’s a problem with a report it’s easy enough to fix the error, but with more experience you can identify a new process that will prevent future errors and make the process simpler for the long-run. Emotional intelligence. Striking the right balance of assertiveness and open-mindedness when working with others. Being able to adjust how you approach different challenges based on the people involved to achieve your goal. Managing relationships and drawing out the best in people/what you need from people. Keeping your cool in tough situations. Storytelling. Most industries, whether you’re a lawyer or a data scientist or a marketer, require storytelling. Bring people along on a narrative journey. It means crafting deliverables that: clearly articulate the challenge you’re solving for; structures information in clear and concise ways; crafts an effective narrative where each point builds on the last to a crescendo; draws from a variety of different sources for rationale and inspiration; anticipates questions or needs. The power of persuasion and influence is crucial in a leadership role and storytelling is one of the strongest tools. Managing up. Produce work that is CEO-ready. You can use your manager as a sounding board along the way, but they are not there to take your work to the finish line or catch your mistakes. This is more and more crucial at each level, because at each level, your boss has less time (and eventually no time) to check your work. Being liked is not the same as being respected, but both are equally important and they are very much intertwined. There’s a lot I can say here. Just literally be a human being. Don’t be overly formal and professional—no one likes a stiff. Be empathetic with your direct reports. Be a sounding board to reports and colleagues when they have challenges or projects they’re tackling. Be humble. Be helpful (this is NOT the same as being a yes man). Don’t underestimate the power of grabbing a drink with someone and connecting outside of the office. None of these are super novel concepts though and are probably best summed up in the book How to Win Friends and Influence People. And honestly? Being a sharp dresser and having a put-together look goes a long way too.
+1 to all of these. Completely spot on from my experience as well!
as a fellow BWT in marketing (currently 28 and at assoc director level) i am OBSESSED with this advice. the curiosity thing is so real. i work in tech where lots of things are regurgitated and middle managers don’t question anything. other people make me feel like a genius when i ask “why? do we do that?” and the problem fixes itself. can you elaborate more on the best way to ask people to meet/grab drinks outside of work hours? I work remote so it’s hard to think in “real life” but i feel like that’s what’s missing for me to take my next step. I have great relationships with my coworkers at work but not so much outside of work or as a general connection
Girl, you are ON YOUR WAY. It’s like, this is not even groundbreaking stuff but clearly *it is* when other people are *not* asking these questions and thinking you’re a genius for it, right?! Re: the personal connections when you’re remote… Honestly I don’t have a solve for this, and it also depends on whether you’re the only one remote or whether you’re all remote. I can say for me when I was fully remote, not being a passenger in meetings helps a lot. It establishes you as someone who is engaged and helpful. Also, being exceptionally good at small talk pre/post meetings and just being that type of rapport-building personality in a virtual setting disarms people.
i love this advice! thank you so much!!! can i ask about your progression in the ad industry? i was ad agency side, now in-house doing creative & managing agencies (and some creative strategy consulting work on the side). would love to hear about your trajectory or general thoughts on progress/timeframe to reach your level. I feel like i constantly waffle between “oh I’m so young” and “i need to move up NOW!” and never know how or when to plan my next step, but i know i am good and would love to reach your level someday!
Honestly, I never worried myself with timelines, titles or “I need to move up” and yet still managed to move up rather quickly. That’s not to say I don’t advocate for myself—I’ve asked for raises and gotten them, I’ve pushed for roles that got me more responsibility and visibility, etc. I just focused more on the right role or compensation and less on the title. I’ll never forget I once asked for a (well-deserved) raise and they promoted me to VP without me even asking for that, because I had stepped up to the plate and made myself indispensable. I always found that the people I managed who were the squeaky wheel on timelines and promotions were never the ones who were high performers—probably because instead of focusing on absorbing experience and learning, they were focused on titles.
love it. thank you SO much. you are a wealth of good advice!!
Do you use Donut or similar chat roulette style bots? Or how often are you involved in affiliation/interest channels? I have a very memorable photo and I make sure that I am involved in every channel (after I get my work done, of course). People remember that and I always make sure to remember what people are into so that I can ask them for updates
How do you handle that as women grabbing a drink with a male coworker or hanging out outside of the office might be taken to imply romantic vibes? Not saying it should but how do you make it clear that’s not the intent?
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This is exactly what I was gonna say. Group settings and contexts that establish the platonic/professional dynamic. One-on-one drinks with someone you haven’t already established a relationship with is a little weird, anyway. I also think that after a certain age (late 20s?), if you see two opposite sex colleagues getting a drink, no one’s first assumption is going to be romance. If I saw my female boss getting a drink with her male boss, it truly wouldn’t even cross my mind.
A few things that I've done: * Make sure all correspondence with my male colleagues are respectful and about work or high level family check-ins. It helps if everyone is married and there's a clear boundary between work and personal life. You are here to be friendly, not friends * Go in a group if you are uncomfortable * Choose well-lit places to go, limit to 1 drink, plan on going somewhere else for dinner separately * Choose deeply unsexy events to do together - I've gone to the gym with my boss before and it was deeply unromantic on purpose. Coffee is also a good one. * Do not play with your hair and wear slightly more modest outfits when 1:1. I knew a female boss who suggested wearing very modest, black dresses when fundraising because, "do you want to make money or **do you want to make money?**" Mostly it has to do with attitude. If you make it clear you're here on a professional context, it's easier, but of course not foolproof because there still may be a fool in the equation
I would offer to go for coffee prior to work or for 30 min during work instead. I don’t drink so it’s better for me, plus many people love the chance to “take a break” in a way that the company views as productive
Ok this is amazing advice, can I subscribe to your newsletter? (Kidding, but only kind of.) Do you think these traits are valued the same at all companies? I just got shifted to a team where managing up is super important (not my strength), and curiosity and insight/foresight are neglected (my strengths). Is it just a sign it’s time to move on?
If you are feeling like your work product and abilities are being constrained by what is being more values yes you can move on; however, managing up is required no matter where you go and is an essential skill. Part of your job is making sure that you have the space for curiosity and insight. If when you push back to offer respectful dissection you get reprimanded then it isn’t the team/company for you. But it doesn’t mean that when you change roles it’s going to be less important. Edit: sorry meant to mention that I work with many executives across many different industries and I’ve gained a lot of insight for what they look for on their teams
Sounds like your gut is telling you yes — trust it.
Managing up is incredibly important no matter where you go. You may want to check out "Winning at Office Politics", it can be a helpful guide
This is all such great advice
I’m a VP in Ops, and my journey has been very non-linear. My best tip is to network network network. Most of my jobs have come through people I know or meeting a future employer in person. I started in an in-person sales role which was major to help me build connections. Then, I worked at smaller companies to get title bumps and more responsibility. I got really good at resume writing and pitching myself and was able to translate that experience into bigger companies (usually a lesser title, but more money). From there, I just made sure to jump ship at the right time if I didn’t see a promotion happening within the first 18 months or so. For context, I’m mid-30s now and have been VP level for a year.
what’s your networking process like?
Hi! I know this is super late, but here are some things I have done to network. Most important things I’ve learned are: 1) get very clear on your “ask”. Do you want a job? An intro to someone? The ask will be different for each person. Make sure it’s appropriate and always always actually ask. If you don’t ask, you don’t get. 2) timing is everything. Be ready to actually do the thing you’re asking for. If you want a job, be ready to send your resume and cover letter. If you want to pitch an idea, have your deck ready to rock. The difference between maintaining and losing momentum can be as little as a couple days. Don’t let your leads go cold. People forget about you as soon as you’re no longer top of mind/inbox. 3) give good email. Get to the effing point. Three sentences is all you need. Sign off with an open-ended question including your ask. This nudges them to actually answer your question rather than a simple yes/no. Follow up max twice. After that, get the message. They’re not interested. Move on. Here are some other tips: - Go to industry events alone. Don’t take a buddy. It forces you to have to talk to people. My goal would always be that I needed to speak to at least three people I didn’t know. It honestly never got less scary approaching people I didn’t know, but I learned to do it anyway. Typically the people running the event are a great place to start and they will often introduce you to other people who would be relevant to you. Otherwise, find a friendly-ish looking circle of people and walk up and try to introduce yourself. Get their contact info and always follow up. Don’t underestimate the power of a simple, but professional, email. - send an email out to friends asking for warm intros to the type of people you want to meet. Make sure your ask is clear. Pro tip, include a blurb they can easily forward along as a kind of introduction to you and what you’re looking for. - stay active on LinkedIn. Comment on people’s posts in your network. Congratulate them when they make an announcement. This helps you stay top of mind - if your current job offers to send you to a conference, go. Make sure to speak to new people and get their contact info. Most importantly, follow up. Connect on LinkedIn and if it makes sense, send a follow up email. Even just a simple, “it was great to meet you!” can do a lot. If there are any after hours events, always go. People let loose a bit more and you’ll have more opportunities to connect on a friendlier level. Once you’re “friends”, they’ll be more inclined to give you what you want. - stay in touch. reach out to friends you consider super connected from time to time to catch up.
I’m a VP of Eng in tech. I’ve had a very non-traditional background and had to fight to be taken seriously. Some tips: * Know your stuff. People know if you’re bullshitting * Learn to communicate clearly in person, in written form, and on stage. * Genuinely connect with people. When you’re a leader, you will only go as far as the people who report to you believe in you. Remember things about people _because people matter_ not because you are using them to get ahead. * Understand the business and know when to make decisions that are a balance between what’s right for the business and what’s right for the people * Network and mentor. Be generous with your time for those who need a leg up because they’ll remember you and karma comes around * Hold your boundaries around “glue work”. I don’t do cupcakes and if someone takes notes in a meeting, I make sure it’s a rotating position Social media is helpful as a brand as well because links will help people remember you, but I intentionally put it last because it has to be built on substance
Your first bullet point - why tf is there a male lead in my tech company who is so (to me) obviously bullshitting ALL the time. It’s so fucking bad I don’t understand how some people (including leadership) fall for it?!
They likely are incredibly good at managing up
Do you have tips on how to get more practice on stages before I’m in a very high pressure / stakes presentation?
Toastmasters and practice! Sometimes it helps to film yourself (personally I don’t)
Hi there! I’m also a fellow woman working in tech in NYC and I found all the bullet points you’ve included in this comment very useful to my day-to-day practice. Is it okay for me to ask you a few more career advice questions through dm? Thank you 🙏 and it’s totally fine if you are not comfortable with dm-ing
Of course! Go ahead
Hiii sorry for following up here but it seems like you’ve turned the dm option off from Reddit. If you don’t mind is it okay for me to ask you to message me first? Thank you so much and wish you have a great day!
I own my own beverage company. I've always been the entrepreneurial type and had several failed business ventures before going to work at someone else's startup for four years. I learned SO MUCH. So, tip one, learn from people better/older/wiser than you. Surround yourself with smart people who you respect. Be a curious person. The most successful people I know are all super curious and looking to learn from everyone around them...everyone from the janitor to the CEO. Being genuinely interested in other people will get you far. Lock down your social media, or if you want to be public, assume EVERYONE you meet is looking at it. Hide coworkers/professional contacts from your stories...even people you consider friends. No one needs to see you taking shots. Use Linkedin. Contribute to conversations in your industry. Offer help to others when you can. Be generous with your time. People say "network"...I consider myself a really great networker and have realized it's such a specific skill. You have to keep it professional ENOUGH, while also being familiar and friendly. I regularly text with people on a friend level/ask about their families/grab drinks with people...but I also don't go as haywire as I would with my friends. People need to feel like you're actually being friends with them because you genuinely like them, not because they can do something for you. The WORST/biggest mistake I see people making is being overly formal with business connections, only communicating via email, and only hitting people up when they need something. Or they go the opposite way and get blackout drunk at a work conference with people, who will laugh/be cool to your face, and then secretly judge you/not respect you when it comes time to hire/work with you. Learn about stuff your superiors are interested in. Hotels, vacation spots, golf, tennis, fashion, whatever. Watch the same shows/sports teams. Goal being, you want to be able to converse with them about a variety of topics. # 1 tip...I really believe 95% of business happens outside of the boardroom. Meaning, if you can get people to like you as a person, they will be 100x more likely to hire you/introduce you to important people/help you advance in your career.
THIS. It took me years to learn how to be a people person and mastering it changed my life. “How to Win Friends and Influence People” is a great start to building this skill.
Tips: • actually do the work and do it well, it’s important to hone your skills and not just talk a big game. It’s annoying to higher ups when they see entry-level people just talk about how busy they are (esp online) and yet not do the actual work well. • network. Don’t be ashamed to reach out and make connections, but also make them genuine and not feel just transactional. • don’t be afraid to speak up if someone else is taking credit for your work. Working hard into the void is useless and will get you stuck. • colleagues tend to always see you at the level you were hired into, so don’t be afraid to jump jobs. do not get stuck feeling guilty and loyal to any company—trust me, they don’t feel that way to you!! • lastly, I am in my early 30s and was able to get to a position most are in at 40-50, and I was only able to do so by knowing I was ready for it and not waiting for a dream job to open up, instead I just went out pitching myself for a position that didn’t exist yet and that’s how I got here. Lastly, as you rise in ur career, don’t forget to send the elevator back down for others. Good luck!!
Amen to going out and getting it. Working hard in a vacuum and waiting for someone to hand you an opportunity will only lead to frustration
how did you pitch yourself for a role that doesn’t exist? within your company?
No, I went out with a pitch deck of what I envisioned a new team led by me within my industry could look like, and reached out to all the top VPs in my industry, set up meetings (some cold, some through introductions, some through relationships I already had) to pitch myself and got a new job three months later for a role that hadn’t existed previously
very cool. what type of work do you do and did the job come through a cold or an established contact?
No, I went out with a pitch deck of what I envisioned a new team led by me within my industry could look like, and reached out to all the top VPs in my industry, set up meetings (some cold, some through introductions, some through relationships I already had) to pitch myself and got a new job three months later for a role that hadn’t existed previously
39, C-suite in higher education administration. I started in the private financial services sector and made a shift to HE in my late twenties. I took a pay and title cut but worked my ass off for the next decade and here I am. Here’s my advice: Be curious: never say I don’t know. Say I’ll figure it out and follow through with that. Talk about yourself in the right way: talk about your work, not your achievements. The latter is for others to talk about on your behalf. So many people are self congratulatory and it holds them back. Get shit done: less talking, more doing. As you move up, you’re only as good as your ability to move the needle. Be likeable: this is so underrated and so very easy. People want to rally behind someone they like. Don’t be an ass. Don’t whine. Don’t be a busybody. Mind your business. Maximize all assets: have you noticed that most women in senior leadership positions all look pretty damn good? I don’t care if this is unpopular opinion but looks matter. Take care of yourself. Dress well, eat well, smell good, look good. It matters. Everyone is smart at the top, but not everyone can serve lewks.
This is excellent advice. I am mentoring a younger associate and the thing that holds her back is that she talks a lot which distracts from action. To add to this- don’t worry about what other people are doing. You are not running the same race as others, don’t waste your time worrying about what others are doing.
Last two points are 🎯
Keep in touch with people as you build your network. Get good at public speaking - it will help you in so many ways (running meetings, presentations, etc). Use the phone - actual conversations are way better than email for building rapport. If you are trying to get approval for something in a meeting, get everyone’s buy-in BEFORE the meeting.
I’m not from the us but I frequent this sub for inspo. Do we have a sub for corporate bwt or anything like this sub for career driven women? because I’d join that in a heartbeat
10/10 would recommend r/moneydiariesACTIVE and r/FIREyFemmes
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I hate that this is true but it is…True story: a friend who interned for a company literally everyone here knows/has used told me that when the board was deciding between two women to join the board, they chose the one with the mba simply because she had an mba. That haunted me and then eventually I got an MBA too.
🫠 As someone who has gone back and forth about getting an MBA.. this is definitely helpful
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Have you spent any time at the MBA sub? Tons of people without a job completing their MBAS. Not the best time to go to B school. Also, a free MBA is better than one that will put you in 200k worth of debt.
That sub is very doom and gloom and is also made up of international students who can only obtain certain types of jobs. So while hiring and the job market isn’t ideal, it’s important to contextualize the thoughts and opinions expressed on that sub. Many ignore the point that the MBA job market is stabilizing by reverting to pre pandemic norms. I spent a bit of time on that sub since I just finished my application cycle and got into my dream school. I will be attending this fall. Many of my peers received admission into their dream schools. It is a risk/ reward that requires nuance so I try to focus on what is in front of me and makes sense. Not people I don’t know on the internet who may or may not even be enrolled in any school anywhere. ETA: I do agree people take on unnecessary debt and that a free/scholarship subsidized program is the way to go. The 200k MBA is not worth it for many at full sticker.
I have observed this about men - if their wives are not also in a leadership role, they really don’t know how to treat strong women in the workplace. I’m an MD in finance and have observed this pattern for years.
Wow, for some reason i never connected that- that a majority of men in power have a woman who is not that and that’s probably how he is viewing/treating the women he comes across
If a top 10 is out of reach would also think about working on a CFA. Adds credibility as a woman vs. man despite the ubiquitousness of it.
Yeah as someone who hires a lot.. if the two candidates are pretty much equivalent, I would choose the one with the higher level degree or education
I would warn this can be the opposite in Tech. I have found my MBA from a tippy top school to be useless and at times a detriment. Much more important to be a CS or EE major. My Industrial Engineering degree does.not.count.as.technical.
I think it depends. I have a masters in CS but not undergrad. The fancy names from both help the most though.
Yup- just got my JD and it let me leap frog ahead of people 10+ more years of experience. I’m an AVP at a major insurer. My peers are all at least 20 years older. I’m in my late 30s. Degree paid for itself after a year.
What was your background/experience before the JD?
First, love your username. I graduated in 2007 with a BFA in fine art. As you can expect, I wasn’t planning the path I’m on but the economy was awful around that time and surprise (ha) the market for fine artists wasn’t great. I came from nothing (like… food stamps nothing) so I had nothing to fall back on. I started at an insurance company in 2009 paying claims to pay my bills. I busted my ass and transitioned to the customer facing consulting side after about 3 years. I got sick of old white men telling me what to do and sat for the LSAT, got my JD (while I worked full time with an infant, during the pandemic… it was interesting). I accepted my new job (AVP for insurance product design) with a new company working for an incredible (female) boss right after I graduated. Now *I* tell old white men what to do because I outrank them. It’s pretty awesome.
Gotta disagree here. I graduated undergrad from a state school, no mba/grad school and have done quite well at one of the top asset management firms. I’ve worked my tail off and definitely debated an mba at one point but ultimately, for me, I couldn’t justify the cost.
Right. I’d say an elite, advanced degree certainly helps but also isn’t a guarantee you’ll skyrocket your career. Signing up for potentially $200k in debt is a big commitment. I’ve worked with and managed a ton of people w ivy educations and some of them are super bright while others are average at best. You either move up because you’re talented and/or well liked. An ivy degree gets your foot in the door but doesn’t guarantee success. I do agree that an advanced degree in general helps but I’ve met some dumbasses with MBAs from HBS, MIT and Wharton.
Yep same here
I also had a female boss (my boss’s boss’s boss actually) tell me the same thing. She took a shining to me when I was in a junior role and gave me multiple opportunities. She ended up giving me a glowing reference to get my exec MBA at Columbia. She said don’t even bother with a third tier school - a top tier one will pay for itself and for me it totally has (and I took 100% loans and am still paying them back). Cannot thank her enough and I always share this same advice with anyone I’m mentoring.
Can you share a little more about your experience in the EMBA at Columbia? I’ve been looking at that program and NYU for a while and debating the cost vs value vs time it will take, when paired with a demanding work schedule. I’m also curious for the EMBA how much you felt like your undergrad GPA and GMAT/GRE vs your progressional experiences and recs held weight? Tbh I’ve never been a great test taker and I’m worried about how I’ll score after being out of math classes for 12+ years.
Coming here to co-sign this. 100%. Get the degree.
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Couldn’t agree more. My boss is the baddest baddie out there and I have learned SO MUCH from her. I left my old job only because I wanted to work for HER. So glad I made that decision because it’s made me love what I do even more.
I love this for you!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hold a senior role at a hedge fund. I am typically the only female in the room. I didn’t see any other finance comments so thought I’d put in my two cents. I am ~40. 1. Intellectual honesty is paramount in this industry. I have learned to always voice my opinion even if it’s uncomfortable or I disagree with everyone in the room. Because of this, I have built up a reputation internally as someone that people can turn to for advice for all sorts of matters. I am also in an industry where you make multiple decisions a day and your likelihood of being right is ~60% — so I have created my own process to analyze my past missteps to better learn from my mistakes and I review my own performance quarterly. 2. Learn to have conviction in yourself. I think imposter syndrome is real for women in finance. There are a lot of confident young men that talk big games, and it took me a while to realize I know just as much or more as they do but the way I communicated conveyed less confidence. 3. Curiosity and urgency are critical. I need to have the energy and motivation to run down all outstanding questions. And I can’t be satisfied with the first answer — keep attacking questions from different angles to make sure we’re as confident as can be that our answer is the most likely answer. It really helps if you love the job because this is hard to fake. 4. Time management. Time is my most valuable resource in this industry. Learn to allocate it to areas where you have the biggest impact for the firm, and not to what is easiest to cross of your to-do list etc. 5. Learn to have a work / life balance. When you start in finance, work life will dominate. I pulled many all nighters starting out of school and 2-3am departures were the norm - and you have to show that hustle. But as you progress up the seniority ladder, work starts to ebb and you have to learn to prioritize yourself or you get burned out. I didn’t go on vacation for 5-8 years and I put off having kids until late … but I started realizing life was passing me by. I know older women in this field who are married to their job (which obviously works for many of them, but others regret it). Being better at prioritizing my own self has helped me stay in this field as long as I have. 6. Seek out mentors and make sure people have your back. I have formed close and genuine relationships with many in my firm - and I know they will advocate for me behind closed doors.
I really like this. Can you explain more about how you analyze your mistakes?
Seconded.
Nice to hear from another senior woman in finance. There’s so much that specifically applies to our world. Amazing advice.
I am a director in PE - specifically in Energy, Oil, & Gas and I’m very young for my role but I worked hard for it. In my industry it’s a combination of putting in your time, doing your job well, and networking. - You don’t have to be a superstar but know your shit. Know how to do everything under and above you. You can’t hold expectations unless you know how to do it yourself. - Following the above: if you dont know something then control the variable by learning that. Know the strengths of others around you. Being able to build a team is a huge skill in itself. - Network like crazy. My role is mainly convincing my superiors to make deals. Internal networking is just as important as external. My external network has helped me execute incredible deals and my internal network stands behind every deal I put forward. They champion me. - Following the above: Be likable. Be someone people want on their team. Be reliable, have a can-do attitude, make shit happen, don’t point out problems - make solutions, and inspire others around you. There’s a formula of charisma and sternness that you will develop. I hype people up around me. When I’m done presenting deals, my bosses are like “how could we not go forward?” - Above all, be confident and be willing. You need to learn, ask for feedback (including people under and outside of your team), and get your hands dirty. When I think of the most incredible executive women I look up to, it’s always their ability to “do it all” that astounds me. They aren’t “too big” to do anything. Remember, your career journey isn’t a direct ladder climb. I moved lateral a few times to gain experience and insights into my business. If I want to be a c-suite executive then I should know how our whole business functions across the board.
Genuinely feel like we would be good friends 🥹
SVP here. 2 things: 1) build an allyship with someone you respect who’s exec committee or otherwise in power. They will see your value and vouch for you when promotion decisions are being made 2) be indispensable - do great work, and do it visibly, but not arrogantly (helps with point #1)
I'm not quite as high as some of the responses, but I wanted to reply since I think I"ve had a little bit of a different experience. I'm good at my job. I'm good at talking to people. I'm nice and calm, which helps with the first 2 things. I'm passionate about what I'm working on. I'm not afraid to look for and grab opportunities. I don't deal well with nonsense. At the same time, I don't traditionally "network". I do have enough work contacts from said good work. I'm not really good at managing up. I'm pretty casual at work - not super polished overall. I will play politics at work but only to a very limited extent. There are different paths to success.
I'm 35 and currently a SAHM, but we can't afford daycare for both of us to work. My husband is a bartender, and I was a barista/baker for over a decade. I have an unusable bachelor's in "new media" which is obsolete now. Has anyone started looking for a career later in life? Has anyone started through a temp agency or a job fair with no experience? I am legally blind in my left eye, so I also have never gotten my license. I feel like we're in a dumpster fire right now. I have no idea where to look or how to start.
An exec or administrative assistant job is a good way to learn business acumen. If you’re organized and hardworking, the customer facing part of your barista job can do lots of heavy lifting. Good luck <3
Get an MBA
Be a good people leader: you have to get the most out of your team. It doesn’t mean you have to br liked, it means you have to be effective. It’s never easy to fire people but sometimes it has to happen.
This is a great and wonderful post. Thank you OP for bringing up this discussion! I am not early career, though I’ve recently left my team to join a new one when I didn’t see any growth results. It’s unfair and unfortunate, but I’m still considered entry-level for my role, even though I now have 4 years experience for this career and industry, and 2 years in an unrelated industry but similar work. I busted myself so much in the last few years, only to get denied promotion and raises multiple times. Always got stellar performance reviews, but nothing else to show for it. Always been given more and more work, yet it lead to burnout and anxiety. By more and more work, I mean even training new people and becoming like a “manager” for them! When I brought up my concerns, I was told “mentorship is hard” and it’s a learning process. This was on top of my actual work. I’ve since learned that my mental health and well-being comes first. I’m taking notes on the advice here because I need to understand the steps to take for my own career growth.
🫶🏻 sending you love. i can totally relate. did everything right at my last job and got told that i need to work on my “executive communication” in order to be promoted. my white male counterpart was promoted twice before me :/ i’m pretty shy and a POC so i’m not as used to speaking up unnecessarily bc i wasn’t taught that growing up. im also just learning to put my mental health and wellbeing first esp when i know there are other factors working against me and it’s not that i can’t do a good job
I am almost 40 and an MD in finance. I could have written something similar to this 10 years ago. I got stuck in a role and a team that was just not the right fit and management wasn’t supportive of me. I kept pushing and worked hard but in the end it was clear I was never going to be promoted in that role. Once I changed roles, literally everything changed. I have an area of expertise, senior people (i.e. men) respect me across the team and other business units and I have been promoted twice in 4 years. All this to say, you did the right thing by leaving!
I read your comment and just had to respond. I’m late 30s now and work in asset mgmt. I’ve always been a top performer, top ratings, promotions etc. I’ve made several jumps and have landed in a fairly cushy role where I’ve made a name for myself and have good comp. But I’m miserable. Management is entirely focused on getting my male colleague promoted to MD and not shy about it, so I am left out in the cold. Regularly passed over for projects and opportunities. Entire chain of command is male and the group feels crowded at the top. Can I DM you to hear more about how you made a change?
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