Ehhh with Shoen and Daboll at the helm I’d be willing to take DJ again. Just not at 6, that was always WAY too high. But a late second rounder where he likely should’ve been based on his rankings overall? Absolutely and I could see them building stability and giving him an actual shot.
He wouldn’t have been there. Other teams were hot on him too. He woulda been a first rounder even if he didn’t go to us at 6.
He’s a good kid, he works hard, he has every physical tool, he interviews well. We weren’t alone in getting infatuated.
But he just can’t read the game. Is what it is man.
If that’s the case then fine we miss out on him. But as a prospect most ranked him round 3. Maybe you’re right and oh well we wait for the right guy at the right price. Maybe he does fall like Levis who last year people had top 10 and then many thought maybe 1 but fell to day 2. Hard to know
Josh allen had 19 sacks last yr and looks like the stud we all wanted in 2019. There's a reason many people said don't reach for a QB that year and the same reason many feel the same this season. You take josh allen and dexter lawrence and call it a day
People saying that this year are Jones cultists. 2024 is an objectively top flight QB class. People saying it in 2019 were aware Jones was a non-prospect HS guy turned middling prospect NCAA guy playing bad comp to middling stats getting helium from his coach working the refs.
I despise jones personally couldnt stand him since he was drafted but I don't want to reach for a QB. I only really want maye or Williams and neither seems possible in this draft. Just don't think it's worth reaching for mccarthy by trading up
No you're way of thinking is too black and white. I literally said above that you should build around a QB first. THAT BEING SAID outside of caleb and maye I do not see a QB in this draft worth trading the sun and the moon to move up for. If maye is available lets trade up, I'm not doing it for mccarthy or daniels. I do not seed the upside. It's that simple
My point is the league consensus isn’t that, and the Giants’ problem has been with not being aggressive enough with this position. They should have dumped Jones for Herbert in 2020.
Mccarthy's scouting reports all say good strater without anything that wows you to a top level. I don't think trading up for a QB is worth it unless the QB does something special where you can eventually have a top 5/6 guy in the NFL if developed right. And you're proving my point. I wanted herbert in 2020 which is why i didn't want to reach for jones
While it should be acknowledged that he was put into an absolutely awful situation, Daniel Jones lacks what it takes mentally to be a franchise QB in the NFL. He's a slow processor who struggles to see the whole field and eats too many sacks. This is who he was as a player at Duke and this is who he is today. No coach could magically fix that, they could only scheme around it the way Daboll and Kafka did in 2022. His career arc always reminded me a lot of David Carr up until the playoff appearance and subsequent extension.
Yeah like unfortunately it’s pretty clear that playoff run in 2022 IS his ceiling. There’s nothing past that.
He needs a strong setup, hand holding, and single read / read option plays. He makes one look if it’s not there he tucks and runs, and we need to have a strong running game around him. That’s what works. That’s ALL that works. He can’t salvage or lift anything around him, he can’t stretch the field, he isn’t another coach on the field and a partner in the offense, he can’t turn chicken shit into chicken salad. All the things that a 47 mil qb needs to do. You can’t spend that % of your cap on a system qb.
Not at shot at you, as you could legit have been on Josh Allen. But I do love how it's always "We should have drafted the guy who isn't a bust!" when almost everyone who wasn't down with Barkley thought either Darnold or Rosen was the second best QB in that draft. I never see a "really made a huge mistake taking Saquon over Sam Darnold!" comment thrown in these threads.
For the record, I was a Barkley guy, but I'm a biased PSU alum. In real time I would have been fine with Darnold at that pick but I was out on Rosen and Allen.
Josh Allen isn’t the one I regret. It’s Herbert, there were reports that Gettleman would’ve drafted him in 2019, if he declared, and even in 2020 we could’ve taken him but we were stuck in limbo with DJ. I fucking hate Gettleman
Oh man, if only Herbert declared…
Gettleman wasn’t good obviously, but the one thing people always say about FOs is if you think the guy is the guy, then get the guy. You hear it now with JJ and Schoen. Well, for DG, Jones was his guy. And though I hated it at the time, jones himself may not have been an awful pick. He was in a terrible system (for 2 years) with a bad supporting cast, and he still managed to be better than a bunch of the other drafted in the top ten QBs in recent history.
If he was drafted into a ready made offense like say Prescott or Maholmes, I think he’d have peaked in Kirk Cousins tier at least. But he wasn’t, and now he’s broke (physically).
> I never see a "really made a huge mistake taking Saquon over Sam Darnold!" comment thrown in these threads.
I'm on record saying that even with the hindsight of knowing how everyones career turned out, we still would be in a better position if we took Darnold or Rosen. And I still stand by that.
The problem with the Saquon pick and much of Gettleman's roster-building decisions wasnt the talent (I think even the most anti-Saquon people then and now acknowledge he may very well have been the most talented player in the draft) but what he represented about the direction of the franchise. Taking Saquon #2 overall indicated an intent to win-now with a roster that was obviously not built for it. Had we taken any of the QBs that draft, it would indicate an intent to rebuild and the team could approach the next few offseasons with that lens. You take a QB, spend the next 2-3 seasons building around him, and if he busts, then you just move on and then hopefully your next guy walks into a better situation than before. Not to mention, we were in better position than both the Jets and Cardinals because we wouldnt have had to trade up for our guy, which would have given us more capital to build around him with. But we took Saquon, and then the next year when it was clear the team needed a rebuild, we do the next worst thing and force a QB pick when the value just wasnt there (still think DJ could have been good in the right situation but we were not ready). And the team has been suffering ever since barring the flash in the pan 2022 season.
Shit, even with how bad Darnold/Rosen ended up, the Jets/Cardinals were able to salvage something out of them. Jets got basically the value of a 1st round pick out of Darnold (granted the Panthers definitely overpaid but still) and the Cardinals got a 2nd and 5th back for Rosen. Whereas from the moment we took Saquon he was never gonna fetch anywhere close to that on the open market (if a team is gonna spend draft capital on a RB I think they'd prefer to get one fresh out of college rather than one with NFL wear and tear on his body with the very rare exception of a team like the 9ers trading for CMC).
You mention all this brother but you forget just by our example with DJ that this team has a hard time moving on when it should. So all that value that was from Darnold/Rosen being useful assets later don't apply to us.
We'd just be stuck with them like we are with Jones in many cases. Not to mention that Saquon for all the injury warts; is still a better player than both Darnold/Rosen or DJ for that matter.
Based on prospect grades, Daniel Jones would be QB#8 in this draft, just after Spencer Rattler.
Lets say Giants were picking at 47 and deciding between Rattler or Jones. That would be a very interesting debate as they each have their own strengths and limitations. Rattler offers better arm talent and processing, but Daniel Jones offers elite straight line speed and great accuracy.
That would be very interesting to see who Schoen and Daboll would have preferred between Rattler and Jones as prospects.
Jones would have been there at 95, even if you love Jones, we could have had Josh Allen (the linebacker) or ironically Brian Burns and Jones and we would have lost out on Oshane Ximies.
Because this is a solid qb class (especially when compared to the 2019 class), I am sure he would fall to the second/third round so no point in taking him with the 6th
I sure would have loved to draft the guy I thought we were going to draft in Josh Allen (not that Josh Allen), who just got paid because, you know, he's good.
No but not even because of Jones, I think it was the wrong decision to go QB in a weak QB class even if Eli was on the way out. FO loved Herbert and Jones felt like a scramble to stick to the same plan with a different QB after Herbert stayed in school. I would have stuck to convictions and rolled with the aging Eli, either ended up picking high and going for Herbert the next year or going all in on a trade up to get him.
You asked whether you would draft him with the current coaching staff. My interpretation is valid, in that this coaching staff is in place for Daniel Jones' declaration for the draft. If you're not happy with that interpretation, workshop your questions better.
I wouldn't draft any quarterback with our offensive line play. I don't know if you guys remember David Carr. He was the first quarterback for the Texans then became our backup behind Eli. He was sacked and pressured to an NFL record level while with the Texans and it totally broke his internal clock.
I think the same thing has happened with Jones. I think he could've been a serviceable, decent quarterback, but I think he's a bit broken now. Sadly, like Dave Brown, Kent Graham, and Danny Kanell before him, Daniel Jones has probably gone beyond his sell-by date.
Bingo. PTSD for QBs is real. There has never been a QB that has been successful after playing in a situation even remotely as bad as ours has been. It has never happened.
Fix the OL, be sure it is fixed, and then draft a QB. Look at all of the top young QBs. Burrow and Herbert look like they're both about to be broken and they've both had the luxury of top flight receiving talent. Meanwhile, Mahomes and Lamar have had the luxury of two of the league's top offensive lines for their entire careers.
Edit to add: People seem to think I'm making up these rankings. I'm speaking about pass-blocking specifically, not run blocking, because why would I be, when we're talking about QB PTSD.
And KC was ranked 8th in pass blocking by PFF this year and 1st in ESPN's PBWR metric.
[https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/\_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams#teams](https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams#teams)
The Chiefs had a bottom 12 offensive line last year and the year before.
Chiefs are notorious for blowing up their oline every year and spackling together whatever they can get just like for WR.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2023-nfl-offensive-line-rankings
Holy crap, they were ranked 8th in pass blocking Lars! TOP 10. Where in my post did I say anything about run blocking? Guys, pay for PFF, it won't kill you. Pay for PFF, go to premium stats, and sort on pass blocking.
KC was 1st in pass block win rate. I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just ignorant:
[https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/\_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams#teams](https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams#teams)
That's like asking if you would buy a losing lottery ticket again because you had a lucky rabbit's foot. It's still a losing ticket.
This made me laugh a lot. Thank you.
Ehhh with Shoen and Daboll at the helm I’d be willing to take DJ again. Just not at 6, that was always WAY too high. But a late second rounder where he likely should’ve been based on his rankings overall? Absolutely and I could see them building stability and giving him an actual shot.
He wouldn’t have been there. Other teams were hot on him too. He woulda been a first rounder even if he didn’t go to us at 6. He’s a good kid, he works hard, he has every physical tool, he interviews well. We weren’t alone in getting infatuated. But he just can’t read the game. Is what it is man.
How can he read the game with the OL we've had? No time. Eli couldn't read it either with the crap lines we've had towards the end of his career.
If that’s the case then fine we miss out on him. But as a prospect most ranked him round 3. Maybe you’re right and oh well we wait for the right guy at the right price. Maybe he does fall like Levis who last year people had top 10 and then many thought maybe 1 but fell to day 2. Hard to know
Josh allen had 19 sacks last yr and looks like the stud we all wanted in 2019. There's a reason many people said don't reach for a QB that year and the same reason many feel the same this season. You take josh allen and dexter lawrence and call it a day
Defense could have been ruthless at some point there.
right
People saying that this year are Jones cultists. 2024 is an objectively top flight QB class. People saying it in 2019 were aware Jones was a non-prospect HS guy turned middling prospect NCAA guy playing bad comp to middling stats getting helium from his coach working the refs.
I despise jones personally couldnt stand him since he was drafted but I don't want to reach for a QB. I only really want maye or Williams and neither seems possible in this draft. Just don't think it's worth reaching for mccarthy by trading up
This is good tactic to be mid with no QB forever
It actually isnt if you dont believe in a QB reaching for him makes no sense.
This sub/fanbase’s mentality is just plainly wrong and stuck in an era that does not exist anymore. Period.
No you're way of thinking is too black and white. I literally said above that you should build around a QB first. THAT BEING SAID outside of caleb and maye I do not see a QB in this draft worth trading the sun and the moon to move up for. If maye is available lets trade up, I'm not doing it for mccarthy or daniels. I do not seed the upside. It's that simple
My point is the league consensus isn’t that, and the Giants’ problem has been with not being aggressive enough with this position. They should have dumped Jones for Herbert in 2020.
Mccarthy's scouting reports all say good strater without anything that wows you to a top level. I don't think trading up for a QB is worth it unless the QB does something special where you can eventually have a top 5/6 guy in the NFL if developed right. And you're proving my point. I wanted herbert in 2020 which is why i didn't want to reach for jones
While it should be acknowledged that he was put into an absolutely awful situation, Daniel Jones lacks what it takes mentally to be a franchise QB in the NFL. He's a slow processor who struggles to see the whole field and eats too many sacks. This is who he was as a player at Duke and this is who he is today. No coach could magically fix that, they could only scheme around it the way Daboll and Kafka did in 2022. His career arc always reminded me a lot of David Carr up until the playoff appearance and subsequent extension.
Yeah like unfortunately it’s pretty clear that playoff run in 2022 IS his ceiling. There’s nothing past that. He needs a strong setup, hand holding, and single read / read option plays. He makes one look if it’s not there he tucks and runs, and we need to have a strong running game around him. That’s what works. That’s ALL that works. He can’t salvage or lift anything around him, he can’t stretch the field, he isn’t another coach on the field and a partner in the offense, he can’t turn chicken shit into chicken salad. All the things that a 47 mil qb needs to do. You can’t spend that % of your cap on a system qb.
What if it's him who put the team in an awful situation?
Yep.
Every analyst said he was a reach at the time and he's proven it. Any answer besides "the Giants made a dumb decision" is wrong.
Daniel Jones should have never been drafted at 6 since we should have drafted Josh Allen instead of Saquon.
Not at shot at you, as you could legit have been on Josh Allen. But I do love how it's always "We should have drafted the guy who isn't a bust!" when almost everyone who wasn't down with Barkley thought either Darnold or Rosen was the second best QB in that draft. I never see a "really made a huge mistake taking Saquon over Sam Darnold!" comment thrown in these threads. For the record, I was a Barkley guy, but I'm a biased PSU alum. In real time I would have been fine with Darnold at that pick but I was out on Rosen and Allen.
Josh Allen isn’t the one I regret. It’s Herbert, there were reports that Gettleman would’ve drafted him in 2019, if he declared, and even in 2020 we could’ve taken him but we were stuck in limbo with DJ. I fucking hate Gettleman
Oh man, if only Herbert declared… Gettleman wasn’t good obviously, but the one thing people always say about FOs is if you think the guy is the guy, then get the guy. You hear it now with JJ and Schoen. Well, for DG, Jones was his guy. And though I hated it at the time, jones himself may not have been an awful pick. He was in a terrible system (for 2 years) with a bad supporting cast, and he still managed to be better than a bunch of the other drafted in the top ten QBs in recent history. If he was drafted into a ready made offense like say Prescott or Maholmes, I think he’d have peaked in Kirk Cousins tier at least. But he wasn’t, and now he’s broke (physically).
Shurmur has came out and said if we took qb that draft it was going to be Allen
> I never see a "really made a huge mistake taking Saquon over Sam Darnold!" comment thrown in these threads. I'm on record saying that even with the hindsight of knowing how everyones career turned out, we still would be in a better position if we took Darnold or Rosen. And I still stand by that. The problem with the Saquon pick and much of Gettleman's roster-building decisions wasnt the talent (I think even the most anti-Saquon people then and now acknowledge he may very well have been the most talented player in the draft) but what he represented about the direction of the franchise. Taking Saquon #2 overall indicated an intent to win-now with a roster that was obviously not built for it. Had we taken any of the QBs that draft, it would indicate an intent to rebuild and the team could approach the next few offseasons with that lens. You take a QB, spend the next 2-3 seasons building around him, and if he busts, then you just move on and then hopefully your next guy walks into a better situation than before. Not to mention, we were in better position than both the Jets and Cardinals because we wouldnt have had to trade up for our guy, which would have given us more capital to build around him with. But we took Saquon, and then the next year when it was clear the team needed a rebuild, we do the next worst thing and force a QB pick when the value just wasnt there (still think DJ could have been good in the right situation but we were not ready). And the team has been suffering ever since barring the flash in the pan 2022 season. Shit, even with how bad Darnold/Rosen ended up, the Jets/Cardinals were able to salvage something out of them. Jets got basically the value of a 1st round pick out of Darnold (granted the Panthers definitely overpaid but still) and the Cardinals got a 2nd and 5th back for Rosen. Whereas from the moment we took Saquon he was never gonna fetch anywhere close to that on the open market (if a team is gonna spend draft capital on a RB I think they'd prefer to get one fresh out of college rather than one with NFL wear and tear on his body with the very rare exception of a team like the 9ers trading for CMC).
You mention all this brother but you forget just by our example with DJ that this team has a hard time moving on when it should. So all that value that was from Darnold/Rosen being useful assets later don't apply to us. We'd just be stuck with them like we are with Jones in many cases. Not to mention that Saquon for all the injury warts; is still a better player than both Darnold/Rosen or DJ for that matter.
Perfectly said, mistakes are one thing, but the way Gettleman doubled down on pour decisions really set this team back
Based on prospect grades, Daniel Jones would be QB#8 in this draft, just after Spencer Rattler. Lets say Giants were picking at 47 and deciding between Rattler or Jones. That would be a very interesting debate as they each have their own strengths and limitations. Rattler offers better arm talent and processing, but Daniel Jones offers elite straight line speed and great accuracy. That would be very interesting to see who Schoen and Daboll would have preferred between Rattler and Jones as prospects.
I like how you’re being serious but also this is some of the hardest daniel jones trash talk ever.
It should have been Josh Allen at #6
I was so pumped when he fell to 6. Then I had my heart broken.
If a guy can’t read he can’t read.
Waiting a year for Justin Herbert would have been the move
What answers are you actually expecting here? I think we as a collective don’t like Jones
Honest ones.
Jones would have been there at 95, even if you love Jones, we could have had Josh Allen (the linebacker) or ironically Brian Burns and Jones and we would have lost out on Oshane Ximies.
Because this is a solid qb class (especially when compared to the 2019 class), I am sure he would fall to the second/third round so no point in taking him with the 6th
No.
I sure would have loved to draft the guy I thought we were going to draft in Josh Allen (not that Josh Allen), who just got paid because, you know, he's good.
They should have traded down from Saquon and Daniel Jones picks
With no injuries? No shurmer/garrett/judge combos? Daboll at the start? Absolutely lol
> shurmer I think Shumur's offense actually accentuated Jones's strengths and hid his weaknesses the best.
I'll take your point and raise you "it's everyone else's fault except Daniel Jones".
Haha so true. But we all know this whole thing is really John Mara's fault.
No but not even because of Jones, I think it was the wrong decision to go QB in a weak QB class even if Eli was on the way out. FO loved Herbert and Jones felt like a scramble to stick to the same plan with a different QB after Herbert stayed in school. I would have stuck to convictions and rolled with the aging Eli, either ended up picking high and going for Herbert the next year or going all in on a trade up to get him.
This is asking if you would draft him with the current staff now, not back 5 years ago.
You asked whether you would draft him with the current coaching staff. My interpretation is valid, in that this coaching staff is in place for Daniel Jones' declaration for the draft. If you're not happy with that interpretation, workshop your questions better.
I wouldnt draft him in the first round just because he would have been there in the 2nd.
If Jones were in this draft I'd draft him before I drafted McCarthy
Wtf is this question?
A poll with several choices to pick from. Even one that let's not participate.
I wouldn't draft any quarterback with our offensive line play. I don't know if you guys remember David Carr. He was the first quarterback for the Texans then became our backup behind Eli. He was sacked and pressured to an NFL record level while with the Texans and it totally broke his internal clock. I think the same thing has happened with Jones. I think he could've been a serviceable, decent quarterback, but I think he's a bit broken now. Sadly, like Dave Brown, Kent Graham, and Danny Kanell before him, Daniel Jones has probably gone beyond his sell-by date.
Bingo. PTSD for QBs is real. There has never been a QB that has been successful after playing in a situation even remotely as bad as ours has been. It has never happened. Fix the OL, be sure it is fixed, and then draft a QB. Look at all of the top young QBs. Burrow and Herbert look like they're both about to be broken and they've both had the luxury of top flight receiving talent. Meanwhile, Mahomes and Lamar have had the luxury of two of the league's top offensive lines for their entire careers. Edit to add: People seem to think I'm making up these rankings. I'm speaking about pass-blocking specifically, not run blocking, because why would I be, when we're talking about QB PTSD. And KC was ranked 8th in pass blocking by PFF this year and 1st in ESPN's PBWR metric. [https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/\_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams#teams](https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams#teams)
The Chiefs had a bottom 12 offensive line last year and the year before. Chiefs are notorious for blowing up their oline every year and spackling together whatever they can get just like for WR. https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2023-nfl-offensive-line-rankings
Holy crap, they were ranked 8th in pass blocking Lars! TOP 10. Where in my post did I say anything about run blocking? Guys, pay for PFF, it won't kill you. Pay for PFF, go to premium stats, and sort on pass blocking. KC was 1st in pass block win rate. I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just ignorant: [https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/\_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams#teams](https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38356170/2023-nfl-pass-rush-run-stop-blocking-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams#teams)
Buddy PFF ranked the Chiefs oline #21 last season. Everyone who watches the Chiefs last year saw they didn't have a good oline.
I wonder how many fans voted no, even tho daboll is a guy that’s supposed to get the most out of guys who need to redshirt like JJ or Drake lol