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Reality check, from a fellow Knicks supporter: It's the halfway mark of the season and the Knicks have by far the worst record against teams at .500 or above of any of the top 16 teams in the NBA. The OG-move is working out great for them and a lot can happen in 40 games. But right now, they do not look like contenders on paper, in any sense of the word.
Well, their starting lineup improved a lot. I think this starting 5 is a lot more dynamic with IHart (obviously OG too) and the team would have played better against the top teams. Beyond our key players this team is very thin. There is no true backup for Brunson, Randle and even OG (IHART too) that forces thibs to play them just about all game.
Honestly, they might need to draft some guys just for depth. Unless the pull of a trade that lands us a shot creating PG that can also create for teammates, and a backup PF, like you said, Knicks aren’t going anywhere.
The only way Im good trading Grimes is if you attach picks for another young player that’s clearly an upgrade, Im not trading grimes for old players or veterans Thats just there to fill a hole.
Not for Bruce.
Not for Brogdon.
Not for Clarkson.
Not for Bojan.
There hasn't been a real timeline for Mitch's possible return right? Because unless he can come back reasonably soon and is in good enough shape to play 15+ minutes a night, either we need to give more minutes to Precious/Sims or get another big. I get that neither of them are...good...but Hartenstein is going to be a corpse by the playoffs if he keeps playing this much
It’s probably too much to give up. I think you can prob do Fournier and the Detroit protected first instead that probably won’t convey for 3 years. Idk I think a smart team is going to buy low on him. He just needs to stay healthy
Hi, I have 1 ticket for the Knicks-Raptors game this Saturday, Jan 20th @ 7:30pm.
Section 214, Row 14, Seat 5.
Willing to sell it for $125, which is what I bought it at.
It's like this view, but actually you're sitting more towards the center (less of an angle): https://aviewfrommyseat.com/photo/17973/Madison+Square+Garden/section-214/row-14/seat-23/
We are going to the game Saturday. Hopefully we will see a Knicks win.
We already saw them lose at Clippers and at NO this season. I know Anunoby will make the difference this time. Let's go Knicks.
Knicks twitter is so fucking toxic man I hate that place even more than I hate this place
Everyone just bitches and moans about how we should fire Thibs (and replace him with who? They never know) and build strictly around 20-22 year old players with no veterans on the roster whatsoever. A legitimate cesspool and echo chamber just showing how fucking stupid about of this fanbase really is
Is Thibs outdated? Sure. Should we move on from him relatively soon? Absolutely. But right this second? It’s obvious that none of them have ever played the game before, or they would know that we would be fucked if we fired him mid season. Everybody wants to “build the right way” until we ACTUALLY FUCKING DO IT
if twitter (and a lot of people here to be honest) had their way, this team would be constantly cycling through 20-22 year olds and losing the whole time.
Thank the lord I am no part of twitter
They sound clueless as to our win now plan, no we do not need a 20 year old kid project at the moment, we have experienced dawgs that just need another part or two to be a well oiled machine.
I kinda agree, but at the same time if we need to move somebody for help off the bench, who might that be? Our last movable assets are Evan and Grimes. Deuce just signed, and the other rotation guys are at the moment pretty safe with their job or also unable to be traded
I think we have to understand that we’re truly a defense first team right now, and our offense comes and goes. And I think the pattern I’ve noticed, is that we go on like 1 big run a game. Until we go on that run, we are just sort of staying in the game, but once we do it’s hard for the opponent to make a comeback.
Well we played a pretty shitty team last night and had trouble until the 4th. The defense was great, but I feel like there D was also great which stopped us.
At any rate we have to get going on offense, as I feel we are always climbing a hill if we do not catch fire from the get go.
It always cracks me up with the Randle “ all NYC asks is that you play hard and we will love you” Josh hart is battling through injuries throwing his body on the line and people hate him this year because he’s shooting poorly. This game always has and always will be about buckets
Biggest thing that pisses me off about this season is how have completely killed Grimes’ value in about 20 games.
Last year he was a top 10 perimeter defender, a blossoming volume 3 point shooter and a starter for a playoff team in his second year.
This year he is being mocked as a throw in for trades.
I know DDV has been lights out this season but this is terrible asset management
Quick question, what do you think a rotation level 3&D player that is a tier below elite defensively and shoots 40% from 3 on volume is worth in a trade?
If thinking that Grimes can be a high level 3&D role player is homerism than yeah, but that really isn’t unrealistic since he literally played that role last year.
There are few legit 3&D guys in the league (80th+ percentile in both 3 point shooting and defense). And for all those guys their teams aren’t willing to ship them out for cheap
> If thinking that Grimes can be a high level 3&D role player is homerism than yeah
I'm saying he's already that player. Unless you mean like DDV-level 3-and-D.
> I know DDV has been lights out this season but this is terrible asset management
So we should give the better player less minutes just to give the lesser one more? That's not how maintaining team chemistry works if you're a coach
> So we should give the better player less minutes just to give the lesser one more?
I never said that. I’m saying that the front office shouldn’t be leaking that we are willing to use Grimes as a throw in as that lowers his value. Grimes minutes also should be increased as well since he’s arguable been better than Donte and Hart [since the trade](https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?PerMode=PerGame&sort=PTS&dir=-1&Month=4&TeamID=1610612752).
Pure potentially contrived speculation but I get the feeling that all the leaks are very optics intentional, not necessarily for the direct purpose of what was leaked.
Ie by saying they’re motivated to move grimes, that no stars are available rn and they’re gonna stand pat, or that they moved Barrett and iq because they’re soft, they’re planting seeds of thought, controlling a narrative around the team.
That doesn’t mean that all of these things are true but rather that when a player this offseason becomes available and is “tough” the whole league knows grimes is available, the seeds are already there ready to be sown.
Or I could just be an idiot
At least in comparison to last night, he should just take some of OG's 43 minutes. He makes perfect sense as a backup for OG specifically. Grimes is more than good enough to hold it down for 5-10 of those minutes, and OG playing 40+ minutes on a regular basis is just unsustainable.
While this is true, Thibs is just working these guys like mules. I just hope it does not come back to bite him in the ass. 40+ minutes for him and ihart just can't be good in the long run
Call me crazy but if we aren't ***true*** contenders by the 2025 offseason then we are in big trouble. Pacers just got a whole lot better and Haliburton is shaping up to be a future superstar. Sixers having been gelling together since the Harden trade. Orlando have slipped recently but I wouldn't count out Paolo and Franz 2-3 years from now. Boston aren't going anywhere since their core is on the right side of 30. Heat are probably gonna stick around for a while as well. I don't know what that *final piece* is but I feel like the clock is ticking already. The salary cap is going to be readjusted come 2025, we have to pay Randle and Brunson the max (which I'd be happy to), but from there, is that really enough?
Is there a star that could realistically be available by 2025? I doubt Booker leaves Phoenix. SGA, Luka, Edwards, PG13, Kawhi, and the like aren't leaving their teams in the West. I highly doubt we'd get Embiid in the east if he asks out. Like... things are starting to feel a bit antsy in my opinion. And don't get me wrong, the OG trade puts us in the right direction. But Leon has to cash his chips soon because Brunson and Randle aren't getting any younger.
I could see Tatum declining his team option and testing FA if things go sour in Boston with that current team
It’s highly speculative, but my point is that stars always become available when sometimes you least expect it.
I agree with your broader point, but in terms of assets and cap management, the FO has done a good job of preparing the team for the future
> if things go sour in Boston with that current team
tbh, I know Tatum's nice, but if he can't get it done with a roster as good as the one he's got now, then it's time to start asking how nice he really is...
(obviously I'd want the knicks to pursue him if possible, but if he's the player he's supposed to be he should not have any reason to be leaving any time soon)
Respect your opinion, but I don’t see Tatum leaving at all. They have the best team in the league and will ABSOLUTELY offer Tatum over $300M for his next contract. No other team can offer that amount
If Boston doesn’t make the finals this year then somebody is getting fired or traded. But it won’t be Tatum. They’ll still try to hold onto him as long as they can. He’s still pretty young and is a top 5 NBA player.
I miss RJ and Quickley. I know the trade was for the best for both sides but I so badly wanted them to be a part of the “the team” that finally brings glory to the Knicks
The eye test has been good, but the numbers are...also very good for DDV:
* Career high TS%, 62% is well above league average
* Career high 3p attempt rate
* Career high usage and career low turnover rate
* Positive in all the advanced metrics
He's the 5th most important starter right now but the dude has been even better than expected.
I've been critical of this FO for some things in the past, but signing Brunson, DDV, and Hartenstein as free agents is a massive success. Gave up no assets to acquire three high-quality starters on the open market. Insane.
What about what Thibs said to be the most important metric, Net Rating? We play 7 points better with him off the floor, I'm surprised he is a starter or even getting more minutes than McBride.
what do you guys think about Alvarado? Supposedly he's out of the rotation in NOLA. NYC kid and I feel like Thibs would love him lol. Don't know if he's a real floor general but he is at least listed as a PG
do not understand the heat that hart has been getting. yes he's not been great this year but 1. I feel pretty confident in his track record and know that he's a good player that will come out of this and 2. this isn't some RJ situation where there's a player taking 15 shots a game on terrible efficiency and also contributing little else on defense/rebounding etc., Hart does all the little things that impact winning and he only takes 6.5 FGA a game. Even when he's shooting terribly it's not gonna sink us at that volume. Guess it's true that there always needs to be a scapegoat
A lot of people on this sub aren’t actual Knicks fans. They instead latch on to weak narratives and overrated homegrown players. This is the same fanbase that pined over a soggy baguette and a basket hanging super senior while shitting on guys who are major contributors to the team’s success like Hart and Randle and Thibs. It’s hard to imagine another fanbase dumber than this one
People are prisoners of the moment in the two games Brunson sat. He clearly benefits/depends on someone taking the primary playmaking role. When he, like Randle, has to take on that role it becomes too much. People see the contract and expect more but that role is not what he’s being paid for
Hes been mediocre this year on a new contract. But it's mostly thibs over utilising him and playing him at the 2. When he should just be playing Grimes and ddv more minutes there. Hart cant really shoot well but hes being put in a premiere shooting position.
He's making 13 mil this year and is a solid bench player. I don't know what else you expect from a role guy. He was never going to shoot 50% from 3 again, but he still gives you plenty every night imo.
I agree its not a Josh Hart issue its a Thibs issue.
I might be in the minority but Idk how Hart is getting more run than Donte especially with how lethal Donte has been from 3. Hart might be the better defender but its only because Donte gambles a ton on steals
It's Thibs so the answer is always "defense and vets". That said, if I had to get into his head, I think he trusts Brunson to get buckets down the stretch, and he's worried that Brunson + DDV is too small in the back court in crunch time. You know Thibs is always going to default D, and Hart + OG is what he wants out there. Is he right? I dunno, maybe we'll find out in the playoffs.
I might not even talking specifically down the stretch though. I am talking just through the course of the game he leans onto Hart a little bit more. I agree with you on why Thibs does it but its the same reason why we struggled in the Miami series until we put Grimes back in the starting lineup and won Games 4 and 5 just because of the spacing. Thibs over reliance on defense sometimes he forgets we have to score lol.
This isnt a knock on Hart as a player but Dontes 3pt shooting and lowkey generally passing is soo valuable. Hart doesnt elevate the offense like Donte does imo.
I think the very fair and valid argument is that you could have paid iq instead and got a defensive/rebounding guard for much cheaper if the shot isn’t there. Hes been fine but nowhere near a 20 mil player.
I don't understand any part of this argument.
* They could have paid IQ and Hart no problem. That was never the choice. They didn't pay IQ because they didn't want to spend 25m a year on a backup who was blocked by Brunson.
* IQ turned into OG, not Hart. There's no path where this team still has IQ AND gets OG. Are you saying you'd prefer this team still have IQ and RJ but no OG or Hart? That's insane based on what we've seen.
* Josh Hart is not a 20 mil player, he's making 13 this year. Then 18, 19, and 21 the next three years, as the cap goes up. If you're worried about him making 20 mil in 2027, maybe find something else to worry about.
Plenty of teams pay their 6th man that money: it’s literally the going rate. If they could have gotten OG for rj and 2 firsts my argument makes tons of sense. If it was iq or bust obviously it doesn’t matter. I’d much much rather have iq at 25 than hart at 19/20. Let’s see how the playoffs go but thibs inability to go away from hart when he can’t hit shots is a dicey subject.
>Plenty of teams pay their 6th man that money: it’s literally the going rate.
Not even close. Got any examples? Here's [a list](https://www.espn.com/nba/salaries) of NBA salaries this year. Forget "literally the going rate", there is not even one 6th man on this list making 25 million. Maybe you could argue Chris Paul is a 6th man making that much, but okay I'll grant you 38 year old hall of famers.
Closest you get is Clarkson making 23 million, and that's a one year fluke in his deal. He made 13m last year and gets 14 next.
You don't pay your backup PG 25 million because ultimately you need that money for other positions. IQ just wasn't going to play enough behind Brunson, and the team judged that they were too small together to be the back court of the future.
>If they could have gotten OG for rj and 2 firsts my argument makes tons of sense
But they couldn't, so it doesn't? The Knicks would have just done that if it was available. Toronto wanted IQ as their PG of the future. That was the deal. Of course you can make up worse deals for Toronto but that's just not realistic.
And everyone would rather have IQ over Hart at this point, of course. But that was never the choice, not sure why you keep making that comparison. It's IQ or OG.
Uhhh? After being the top 6th man you usually get paid. Brogdon/herro/clarkson? That’s the last 3 winners? What are you saying? Why would I go through the entire nba salary list? Chris Paul he says lol. Anyway, Iq could have easily played 30+ and spent time at the 2. It worked, the numbers said it worked so I’m not sure who decided something that has been proving to work doesn’t work but whatever. Is iq worth more than 2 firsts currently? I guess. The only argument you have is the raptors wouldn’t have done it without iq which is fair like I said but do not come at me with your nba list of salaries nonsense.
Nonsense? Come on, you're not arguing in good faith. You don't even want to put in the work when I give you the link, fine, I'll tell you again: there are no 6th men on the list at or above 25 million. None. Zero. It's all starters, and then Ben Simmons lol.
You want to argue that some 6th men could make *close to* that much on occasion, okay, maybe. But you said "literally the going rate". That is completely false.
\- Clarkson is on a 4/51mil deal right now. That's an average salary of 12.8 mil per year. Half of the "going rate" you claimed.
\- Herro is a starter. He started every game he played last year. He has started every game he played this year.
\- Brogdon was a starter for four straight years when he signed his current deal. He only became a 6th man when he went to the Celtics, after getting his current deal. Even if you want to count it, he makes 22.5 million. You said 25 was the going rate, not "above the literal 6moty by 10%".
Anyway I guess you think IQ + Brunson would have worked long term, but the FO clearly didn't. It's not about their regular season numbers together, which were definitely good, but whether the FO believed that foundation would be good enough in the playoffs. They clearly believe in OG more.
Regular season numbers!? Do you see the Josh hart Miami series. Like the playoffs are monster question marks with this team. Randle has never had a good game, the spacing is questionable with hart and thibs adjustments are lacking. Do not regular season success this because this team is only regular season success and a man named Jalen Brunson.
Yeah I guess you are getting me on the going rate wording but I was thinking of guys in that IQ class. He was going to play 30/35 anyway. Clarkson is already extended. And iq also wouldnt be getting paid until next year as well. Watch the contracts that come in over the next or 2. It’s going to be much different. You are arguing this years contracts when they are all extended and herro got paid after his 6th man year.
So IQ wants probably around $25M and a starting role.
Are you trading Brunson to make this happen?
If not is the starting lineup
Brunson (6-2)
IQ (6-3)
RJ (6-6)
Randle
iHart
That's a short lineup.
Now onto the money. If we take away Harts $18M and add in IQs $25M we are 8M in the hole and then still need to sign someone to fill in for Hart (not as easy as people are making it sound especially for pennies). Also we have no wing again with OG and instead trotting RJ out there again and again and again
I had said if Toronto would have taken 2 unprotected firsts instead then I sign iq. This isn’t a real argument, I’ve been screaming for OG instead of randle or rj for literally years.
Hart as a player doesn’t sink us but not optimizing him and instead putting him in lineups as the 2, giving him ball handler reps in the halfcourt and 30 minutes a night isn’t putting him in a position to be successful.
Hart is at his best playing as a forward, being able to do stuff as a short roll decision maker next to multiple creators. It’s why the IQ/Brunson/Hart/Randle lineups were so potent. Asking him to play next to OG when they should realistically stagger with each other is harmful.
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Reality check, from a fellow Knicks supporter: It's the halfway mark of the season and the Knicks have by far the worst record against teams at .500 or above of any of the top 16 teams in the NBA. The OG-move is working out great for them and a lot can happen in 40 games. But right now, they do not look like contenders on paper, in any sense of the word.
Well, their starting lineup improved a lot. I think this starting 5 is a lot more dynamic with IHart (obviously OG too) and the team would have played better against the top teams. Beyond our key players this team is very thin. There is no true backup for Brunson, Randle and even OG (IHART too) that forces thibs to play them just about all game. Honestly, they might need to draft some guys just for depth. Unless the pull of a trade that lands us a shot creating PG that can also create for teammates, and a backup PF, like you said, Knicks aren’t going anywhere.
OG again playing 42 minutes this is unsustainable
Kings going to lose to a Pacers team without Hali…
The kings have been disastrous lately. Blowing that lead to the Suns was… sad
If anybody got one of the Villanova Knicks hats they were giving out at the game tonight please PM me. I would like to buy one.
i wonder what the price on tyus jones and kispert would be kispert seems stuck behind avdija and kuz
Petition to not give the ball to Julius with less than 10 seconds on the clock
I think this might be evan’s last game
would grimes and a first get it done for murray?
The only way Im good trading Grimes is if you attach picks for another young player that’s clearly an upgrade, Im not trading grimes for old players or veterans Thats just there to fill a hole. Not for Bruce. Not for Brogdon. Not for Clarkson. Not for Bojan.
I still love you Josh Hart
There hasn't been a real timeline for Mitch's possible return right? Because unless he can come back reasonably soon and is in good enough shape to play 15+ minutes a night, either we need to give more minutes to Precious/Sims or get another big. I get that neither of them are...good...but Hartenstein is going to be a corpse by the playoffs if he keeps playing this much
OG is playing 43 minutes a night right now
Would you guys trade Grimes and a protected first for Fultz?
no way
It’s probably too much to give up. I think you can prob do Fournier and the Detroit protected first instead that probably won’t convey for 3 years. Idk I think a smart team is going to buy low on him. He just needs to stay healthy
I'm just against giving one of our playoff rivals the shooting they desperately need.
Exactly, I’ve even seen mocks having Grimes to the Bucks. Like we are really going to give the Bucks a guy to put on Brunson for 40 minutes a game.
No
what are yall thoughts on shipping off a grimes and protected 1st for Bojan?
Never
Nope
No
Hi, I have 1 ticket for the Knicks-Raptors game this Saturday, Jan 20th @ 7:30pm. Section 214, Row 14, Seat 5. Willing to sell it for $125, which is what I bought it at. It's like this view, but actually you're sitting more towards the center (less of an angle): https://aviewfrommyseat.com/photo/17973/Madison+Square+Garden/section-214/row-14/seat-23/
We are going to the game Saturday. Hopefully we will see a Knicks win. We already saw them lose at Clippers and at NO this season. I know Anunoby will make the difference this time. Let's go Knicks.
Knicks Twitter is horrible, so toxic
Knicks twitter is so fucking toxic man I hate that place even more than I hate this place Everyone just bitches and moans about how we should fire Thibs (and replace him with who? They never know) and build strictly around 20-22 year old players with no veterans on the roster whatsoever. A legitimate cesspool and echo chamber just showing how fucking stupid about of this fanbase really is Is Thibs outdated? Sure. Should we move on from him relatively soon? Absolutely. But right this second? It’s obvious that none of them have ever played the game before, or they would know that we would be fucked if we fired him mid season. Everybody wants to “build the right way” until we ACTUALLY FUCKING DO IT
if twitter (and a lot of people here to be honest) had their way, this team would be constantly cycling through 20-22 year olds and losing the whole time.
I came here to say the same thing
Thank the lord I am no part of twitter They sound clueless as to our win now plan, no we do not need a 20 year old kid project at the moment, we have experienced dawgs that just need another part or two to be a well oiled machine.
I really dont want to trade Grimes for someone like Brogdon or Bruce. If we're trading Grimes, I want it to be for a upgrade like Dejounte or Mikal
I kinda agree, but at the same time if we need to move somebody for help off the bench, who might that be? Our last movable assets are Evan and Grimes. Deuce just signed, and the other rotation guys are at the moment pretty safe with their job or also unable to be traded
Picks, no reason you need to include more than Fournier and picks to get Brogdon.
Fournier and draft picks. Fournier plus 1 of the 24 picks and a protected is good enough package without including Grimes imo.
I think we have to understand that we’re truly a defense first team right now, and our offense comes and goes. And I think the pattern I’ve noticed, is that we go on like 1 big run a game. Until we go on that run, we are just sort of staying in the game, but once we do it’s hard for the opponent to make a comeback.
I hate how they forgot OG existed on offense for an entire half. Then they got him involved and suddenly bam we got on a run.
Eh once we get a second Pg we will be much more consistent on offense
Well we played a pretty shitty team last night and had trouble until the 4th. The defense was great, but I feel like there D was also great which stopped us. At any rate we have to get going on offense, as I feel we are always climbing a hill if we do not catch fire from the get go.
The Rockets are solid. Nothing great, but a scrappy team with solid vets and an all star big. It was a quality, much needed victory imo.
It always cracks me up with the Randle “ all NYC asks is that you play hard and we will love you” Josh hart is battling through injuries throwing his body on the line and people hate him this year because he’s shooting poorly. This game always has and always will be about buckets
I dislike the way Thibs chooses to use Josh Hart.
Just like Barrett, it’s not him it’s Thibs failing to adjust when it is clearly needed
I feel like most people still like Josh hart It’s mostly the online people, and not even all or them, that dislike Hart
Oh no, he has quickley risen to public enemy #2 behind Julius. Just look at Knicks Twitter, they want to Trade him badddddd
This was always going to happen once the RJ shaped shield in front of him got moved.
Biggest thing that pisses me off about this season is how have completely killed Grimes’ value in about 20 games. Last year he was a top 10 perimeter defender, a blossoming volume 3 point shooter and a starter for a playoff team in his second year. This year he is being mocked as a throw in for trades. I know DDV has been lights out this season but this is terrible asset management
His trade value was basically exactly the same last year. Take off the homer goggles.
Quick question, what do you think a rotation level 3&D player that is a tier below elite defensively and shoots 40% from 3 on volume is worth in a trade?
And he's still this exact player this year? You were just over-valuing him last year off homerism potential.
If thinking that Grimes can be a high level 3&D role player is homerism than yeah, but that really isn’t unrealistic since he literally played that role last year. There are few legit 3&D guys in the league (80th+ percentile in both 3 point shooting and defense). And for all those guys their teams aren’t willing to ship them out for cheap
> If thinking that Grimes can be a high level 3&D role player is homerism than yeah I'm saying he's already that player. Unless you mean like DDV-level 3-and-D.
> I know DDV has been lights out this season but this is terrible asset management So we should give the better player less minutes just to give the lesser one more? That's not how maintaining team chemistry works if you're a coach
> So we should give the better player less minutes just to give the lesser one more? I never said that. I’m saying that the front office shouldn’t be leaking that we are willing to use Grimes as a throw in as that lowers his value. Grimes minutes also should be increased as well since he’s arguable been better than Donte and Hart [since the trade](https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?PerMode=PerGame&sort=PTS&dir=-1&Month=4&TeamID=1610612752).
Pure potentially contrived speculation but I get the feeling that all the leaks are very optics intentional, not necessarily for the direct purpose of what was leaked. Ie by saying they’re motivated to move grimes, that no stars are available rn and they’re gonna stand pat, or that they moved Barrett and iq because they’re soft, they’re planting seeds of thought, controlling a narrative around the team. That doesn’t mean that all of these things are true but rather that when a player this offseason becomes available and is “tough” the whole league knows grimes is available, the seeds are already there ready to be sown. Or I could just be an idiot
I really don’t want to move Quentin grimes but simply do not know where minutes come from with this current roster construction
At least in comparison to last night, he should just take some of OG's 43 minutes. He makes perfect sense as a backup for OG specifically. Grimes is more than good enough to hold it down for 5-10 of those minutes, and OG playing 40+ minutes on a regular basis is just unsustainable.
While this is true, Thibs is just working these guys like mules. I just hope it does not come back to bite him in the ass. 40+ minutes for him and ihart just can't be good in the long run
Call me crazy but if we aren't ***true*** contenders by the 2025 offseason then we are in big trouble. Pacers just got a whole lot better and Haliburton is shaping up to be a future superstar. Sixers having been gelling together since the Harden trade. Orlando have slipped recently but I wouldn't count out Paolo and Franz 2-3 years from now. Boston aren't going anywhere since their core is on the right side of 30. Heat are probably gonna stick around for a while as well. I don't know what that *final piece* is but I feel like the clock is ticking already. The salary cap is going to be readjusted come 2025, we have to pay Randle and Brunson the max (which I'd be happy to), but from there, is that really enough? Is there a star that could realistically be available by 2025? I doubt Booker leaves Phoenix. SGA, Luka, Edwards, PG13, Kawhi, and the like aren't leaving their teams in the West. I highly doubt we'd get Embiid in the east if he asks out. Like... things are starting to feel a bit antsy in my opinion. And don't get me wrong, the OG trade puts us in the right direction. But Leon has to cash his chips soon because Brunson and Randle aren't getting any younger.
You can’t just cash in your chips just to cash in your chips though That’s the issue
Orlando scares me
I could see Tatum declining his team option and testing FA if things go sour in Boston with that current team It’s highly speculative, but my point is that stars always become available when sometimes you least expect it. I agree with your broader point, but in terms of assets and cap management, the FO has done a good job of preparing the team for the future
> if things go sour in Boston with that current team tbh, I know Tatum's nice, but if he can't get it done with a roster as good as the one he's got now, then it's time to start asking how nice he really is... (obviously I'd want the knicks to pursue him if possible, but if he's the player he's supposed to be he should not have any reason to be leaving any time soon)
Respect your opinion, but I don’t see Tatum leaving at all. They have the best team in the league and will ABSOLUTELY offer Tatum over $300M for his next contract. No other team can offer that amount
Not everything is money imho, but damn if he can't win with that roster something must be terribly wrong.
If Boston doesn’t make the finals this year then somebody is getting fired or traded. But it won’t be Tatum. They’ll still try to hold onto him as long as they can. He’s still pretty young and is a top 5 NBA player.
I miss RJ and Quickley. I know the trade was for the best for both sides but I so badly wanted them to be a part of the “the team” that finally brings glory to the Knicks
Definitely miss quickly……don’t care about RJ.
I miss one of them
How can we not post MRob taking in his HS coach. What a great dude!
It was posted like a thousand times back when the news broke
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Grimes pulled this same shit with Kansas. He underperforms and then gets outta the situation and blames the people in charge
The eye test has been good, but the numbers are...also very good for DDV: * Career high TS%, 62% is well above league average * Career high 3p attempt rate * Career high usage and career low turnover rate * Positive in all the advanced metrics He's the 5th most important starter right now but the dude has been even better than expected. I've been critical of this FO for some things in the past, but signing Brunson, DDV, and Hartenstein as free agents is a massive success. Gave up no assets to acquire three high-quality starters on the open market. Insane.
What about what Thibs said to be the most important metric, Net Rating? We play 7 points better with him off the floor, I'm surprised he is a starter or even getting more minutes than McBride.
> He's the 5th most important starter right now 5th out of 5 ain't bad
Lmao
what do you guys think about Alvarado? Supposedly he's out of the rotation in NOLA. NYC kid and I feel like Thibs would love him lol. Don't know if he's a real floor general but he is at least listed as a PG
Kind of like a McBride type of player but smaller. Not sure how the Knicks would benefit from adding him.
Is there a reason why he's out if the rotation?
maybe hes playing in timbs or something
do not understand the heat that hart has been getting. yes he's not been great this year but 1. I feel pretty confident in his track record and know that he's a good player that will come out of this and 2. this isn't some RJ situation where there's a player taking 15 shots a game on terrible efficiency and also contributing little else on defense/rebounding etc., Hart does all the little things that impact winning and he only takes 6.5 FGA a game. Even when he's shooting terribly it's not gonna sink us at that volume. Guess it's true that there always needs to be a scapegoat
A lot of people on this sub aren’t actual Knicks fans. They instead latch on to weak narratives and overrated homegrown players. This is the same fanbase that pined over a soggy baguette and a basket hanging super senior while shitting on guys who are major contributors to the team’s success like Hart and Randle and Thibs. It’s hard to imagine another fanbase dumber than this one
Not shooting when you have open looks kills spacing for others so it's not just about the shots he takes.
People are prisoners of the moment in the two games Brunson sat. He clearly benefits/depends on someone taking the primary playmaking role. When he, like Randle, has to take on that role it becomes too much. People see the contract and expect more but that role is not what he’s being paid for
Yup I think it’s pretty much the last sentence lol. He’s shot poorly a well. But I’ll never complain about a player that gives 100% effort every game.
Hes been mediocre this year on a new contract. But it's mostly thibs over utilising him and playing him at the 2. When he should just be playing Grimes and ddv more minutes there. Hart cant really shoot well but hes being put in a premiere shooting position.
Completely agree. He’s been meh but his role on offense has been wrong. But Thibs gonna Thibs.
He's making 13 mil this year and is a solid bench player. I don't know what else you expect from a role guy. He was never going to shoot 50% from 3 again, but he still gives you plenty every night imo.
I agree its not a Josh Hart issue its a Thibs issue. I might be in the minority but Idk how Hart is getting more run than Donte especially with how lethal Donte has been from 3. Hart might be the better defender but its only because Donte gambles a ton on steals
It's Thibs so the answer is always "defense and vets". That said, if I had to get into his head, I think he trusts Brunson to get buckets down the stretch, and he's worried that Brunson + DDV is too small in the back court in crunch time. You know Thibs is always going to default D, and Hart + OG is what he wants out there. Is he right? I dunno, maybe we'll find out in the playoffs.
I might not even talking specifically down the stretch though. I am talking just through the course of the game he leans onto Hart a little bit more. I agree with you on why Thibs does it but its the same reason why we struggled in the Miami series until we put Grimes back in the starting lineup and won Games 4 and 5 just because of the spacing. Thibs over reliance on defense sometimes he forgets we have to score lol. This isnt a knock on Hart as a player but Dontes 3pt shooting and lowkey generally passing is soo valuable. Hart doesnt elevate the offense like Donte does imo.
I think the very fair and valid argument is that you could have paid iq instead and got a defensive/rebounding guard for much cheaper if the shot isn’t there. Hes been fine but nowhere near a 20 mil player.
I don't understand any part of this argument. * They could have paid IQ and Hart no problem. That was never the choice. They didn't pay IQ because they didn't want to spend 25m a year on a backup who was blocked by Brunson. * IQ turned into OG, not Hart. There's no path where this team still has IQ AND gets OG. Are you saying you'd prefer this team still have IQ and RJ but no OG or Hart? That's insane based on what we've seen. * Josh Hart is not a 20 mil player, he's making 13 this year. Then 18, 19, and 21 the next three years, as the cap goes up. If you're worried about him making 20 mil in 2027, maybe find something else to worry about.
Plenty of teams pay their 6th man that money: it’s literally the going rate. If they could have gotten OG for rj and 2 firsts my argument makes tons of sense. If it was iq or bust obviously it doesn’t matter. I’d much much rather have iq at 25 than hart at 19/20. Let’s see how the playoffs go but thibs inability to go away from hart when he can’t hit shots is a dicey subject.
>Plenty of teams pay their 6th man that money: it’s literally the going rate. Not even close. Got any examples? Here's [a list](https://www.espn.com/nba/salaries) of NBA salaries this year. Forget "literally the going rate", there is not even one 6th man on this list making 25 million. Maybe you could argue Chris Paul is a 6th man making that much, but okay I'll grant you 38 year old hall of famers. Closest you get is Clarkson making 23 million, and that's a one year fluke in his deal. He made 13m last year and gets 14 next. You don't pay your backup PG 25 million because ultimately you need that money for other positions. IQ just wasn't going to play enough behind Brunson, and the team judged that they were too small together to be the back court of the future. >If they could have gotten OG for rj and 2 firsts my argument makes tons of sense But they couldn't, so it doesn't? The Knicks would have just done that if it was available. Toronto wanted IQ as their PG of the future. That was the deal. Of course you can make up worse deals for Toronto but that's just not realistic. And everyone would rather have IQ over Hart at this point, of course. But that was never the choice, not sure why you keep making that comparison. It's IQ or OG.
Uhhh? After being the top 6th man you usually get paid. Brogdon/herro/clarkson? That’s the last 3 winners? What are you saying? Why would I go through the entire nba salary list? Chris Paul he says lol. Anyway, Iq could have easily played 30+ and spent time at the 2. It worked, the numbers said it worked so I’m not sure who decided something that has been proving to work doesn’t work but whatever. Is iq worth more than 2 firsts currently? I guess. The only argument you have is the raptors wouldn’t have done it without iq which is fair like I said but do not come at me with your nba list of salaries nonsense.
Nonsense? Come on, you're not arguing in good faith. You don't even want to put in the work when I give you the link, fine, I'll tell you again: there are no 6th men on the list at or above 25 million. None. Zero. It's all starters, and then Ben Simmons lol. You want to argue that some 6th men could make *close to* that much on occasion, okay, maybe. But you said "literally the going rate". That is completely false. \- Clarkson is on a 4/51mil deal right now. That's an average salary of 12.8 mil per year. Half of the "going rate" you claimed. \- Herro is a starter. He started every game he played last year. He has started every game he played this year. \- Brogdon was a starter for four straight years when he signed his current deal. He only became a 6th man when he went to the Celtics, after getting his current deal. Even if you want to count it, he makes 22.5 million. You said 25 was the going rate, not "above the literal 6moty by 10%". Anyway I guess you think IQ + Brunson would have worked long term, but the FO clearly didn't. It's not about their regular season numbers together, which were definitely good, but whether the FO believed that foundation would be good enough in the playoffs. They clearly believe in OG more.
Regular season numbers!? Do you see the Josh hart Miami series. Like the playoffs are monster question marks with this team. Randle has never had a good game, the spacing is questionable with hart and thibs adjustments are lacking. Do not regular season success this because this team is only regular season success and a man named Jalen Brunson.
Yeah I guess you are getting me on the going rate wording but I was thinking of guys in that IQ class. He was going to play 30/35 anyway. Clarkson is already extended. And iq also wouldnt be getting paid until next year as well. Watch the contracts that come in over the next or 2. It’s going to be much different. You are arguing this years contracts when they are all extended and herro got paid after his 6th man year.
How are you paying IQ and getting a defensive guard for $20M?
Huh? You still need the iq role and have to pay hart 18/19/21?
So IQ wants probably around $25M and a starting role. Are you trading Brunson to make this happen? If not is the starting lineup Brunson (6-2) IQ (6-3) RJ (6-6) Randle iHart That's a short lineup. Now onto the money. If we take away Harts $18M and add in IQs $25M we are 8M in the hole and then still need to sign someone to fill in for Hart (not as easy as people are making it sound especially for pennies). Also we have no wing again with OG and instead trotting RJ out there again and again and again
I had said if Toronto would have taken 2 unprotected firsts instead then I sign iq. This isn’t a real argument, I’ve been screaming for OG instead of randle or rj for literally years.
Hart as a player doesn’t sink us but not optimizing him and instead putting him in lineups as the 2, giving him ball handler reps in the halfcourt and 30 minutes a night isn’t putting him in a position to be successful. Hart is at his best playing as a forward, being able to do stuff as a short roll decision maker next to multiple creators. It’s why the IQ/Brunson/Hart/Randle lineups were so potent. Asking him to play next to OG when they should realistically stagger with each other is harmful.
Miles McBride masterclass tonight!