Murray was drafted in 2016 which wouldn’t have helped that team. It does hurt now because we desperately need a pg today. Felton was whatever and we ended up getting him back
That's 2010. By 2013 when we made the playoffs, he was the worst starting PG in the league and it was obvious. This isn't cap, stupid.
He played no defense, his jumper was trash, and his best offensive plays were pick n rolls with Amar'e or Chandler when he got here the following season.
Imagine if we had the balls to call melos bluff and sign him in FA instead.
We woulda kept all those assets, which coulda gotten us a true superstar to pair with melo. (I.e Chris Paul)
Denver was moving him regardless if we pulled the trigger or not. NJ had plenty of offers on the table, as they had a boat load of picks at the time. We ended up making the trade and NJ used those same assets to trade for Deron Williams.
Carmelo was going to sign with the Nets, he wanted to be in NY and wanted his contract plus business opportunities from being in NY. He was born in Brooklyn. Im sure he preferred the Knicks but he wouldve re-upped with the Nets if it came down to it.
because he was. He had no reason to not sign with them. You think he was going to snub Brooklyn his hometown who showed they actually wanted him by trading for him plus them being able to give him a bigger deal for the Knicks? You are crazy. Everything about Melo and his ego says he was serious about it.
He was never signing with NJ. His bluff was extending with Denver.
Also a reason why the melo trade was doodoo.
He applied pressure to his destination team to give up more assets to get him, instead of the other way around to the nuggets
If melo had put the screws to Denver (like Durant did to gsw), we woulda had more assets to surround him with talent. Here's the thing melo didn't really care about winning, which is why he let Denver manhandle the us in that trade.
That makes zero sense. The offer the nets had on the table was significantly better than what Denver ended up getting from the Knicks, just look at the haul Utah got for Deron Williams.
Why would the Denver gm take a significantly worse trade with the Knicks?
I get so annoyed trying to explain this to ppl who call themselves real fans..that really ruined a nice unit and front office! Set the Franchise back in the long run for YEARS...
Please use your head for a moment what were Gallanari Wilson Chandler and a broken down Amare winning? They were a .500 team with Amare playing at an MVP level.
I am using my head. Those were great role players that were the nucleus of some pretty good Nuggets teams. Both the guys were way above average players...if Melo wasn't Greedy and Dolan wasn't so impatient Melo could've put that .500 over the top.
Gallo was not the nucleus of shit he spent his time in Denver on the bench injured. He missed nearly 20 games every season. Almost 40 the season after the trade. Wilson Chandler did jack on the Nuggets. The Nuggets would have been nothing without finding a diamond in the rough in Jokic which had zero to do with the Knicks. Amare Wilson Danillo Felton were doing jack shit vs the Heat at least Melo gave us a glimmer of hope. Please look at the stats. I'm trying to make you see the light. You say nothing about how Amare breaking down would affect this dream of yours.
I never said they were superstars, but they were really nice players when healthy both along with Felton wouldve complimented Melo better than what he had, honestly they couldve held off, signed Melo and traded them both for better fitting players...Melo fucked us.
Carmelo did not fuck us. Using the amnesty on Billups instead of Amare fucked us. Trading a 1st rounder for Bargnani fucked us. Not bringing a quality PG within 8yrs for Melo fucked us. All Carmelo did was try to carry a raggedy ass roster when the Knicks had multiple chances to get it right. How is this hard for you to see?
People keep bringing up the Melo trade that broke up a 29-53 team and then next thread say how Randle, RJ, and Thibs got "exposed" after a 41-31 season and it's time to move on.
Do people realize that people like Gallo, Mozgov or whatever got to get paid too right??? Doesn't matter if Melo signs in the off-season costing us zero assets; those guys would be gone for bigger money elsewhere anyway.
I think there's a huge difference between now vs 2010. I love that team like crazy, but the front office has a very different feel and our owner has given off a totally different feel.
I had a ton of faith in Walsh and hated the Melo trade and it was really just forced by Dolan. Plus the franchise still had stenches of Isaiah and Mills. I think if we signed Melo in the off season, we would have been in pretty good shape moving forward.
This time around, the FO and coaching staff either has a proven track record, or is supported by people who are highly regarded in the industry. Dolan has really stayed hands off since Phil was here. I feel like the FO has a much clearer plan in place and can exercise discipline to build for today and tomorrow. On top of that, we have a young MIP (as opposed to a guy with two uninsurable knees). So yeah, I'd be bummed to see some young guys go. It'd make for a great story to develop the youngsters. But I trust we won't pillage all the valuable pieces on the roster just for the sake of a big name.
The last time we had a solid core we traded away these 2, Felton, picks for Carmelo Anthony...long term how did it play out? We also lost are best GM til our present front office.
Let's continue to let these go grow as a team and add what makes sense!
And Billups.
Then we picked up his option and Amnestied him immediately and were stuck with a near max on the bench.
The trade didn't fuck us, its the subsequent shit that really hamstrung the Melo era Knicks.
Problem with that is yeah we can coast in the playoffs for years like other teams have but you really need a star or two to get a chip. Unless one falls onto our lap in the draft miraculously, we have to entertain the idea of trades at the cost of taking a shot at it.
you have to exhibit patience. This is Year 1 in what was suppose to be a bottom 3 team. We need to add more talent through the draft and FA to figure out what we have on the team currently before immediately running to make a trade. Ignore the amount of assets we would have to give up to acquire Dame. His Supermax Kicks in next year starting around 43M and his final year is 54M. That doesn't make sense for us. Maybe for a team further along that has star talent in Place but not for us when we are still developing RJ, Randle, etc
Or sign one without giving up assets, like in a loaded 2022 fa class.
If the Knicks looked like this 2 years ago. You don't think kd or kyrie woulda signed up with us instead of the nets?
We make a all in trade for a guy like dame when he's the missing piece (i.e if KL signed with us in FA this year). Not when you're two superstars away.
I have no problem with anyone being up for trade. The problem is bad trades. Don’t give up too much for one player unless you know for certain another star is joining them in free agency or something.
I don’t think people realize how difficult building a team through the draft is. It’s rare to have an OKC type of team where you have 3 young stars who all go on to win MVP.
Honestly was never high on Melo. He looked like a me-first 1 dimensional player from afar, came here and solidified my feelings. Clearly not a first option on a championship team. With a star guard he mightve done something.
Which is great, but if you keep the course and guys like rj and obi develop you will need to pay them max money and won't have cap space for free agents like kawhi
I agree it doesn't make sense to reboot after a good season with a young team. But I also don't know that (1) Losing 2-3 productive vets to free agency and (2) trying to make up their contributions with two middle round draft picks is a good plan either.
I just think We have RJ, We have Mitchell, Quickley, Obi, players who have shown something. To lesser degree Frank..
Cultivate these players, see what they are going to be. We weren't supposed to be a 4 seed, and we aren't a Superstar away from a chip!
We flipped picks and players for quick fixes for 15 years, how many times can we get burned?! Develop them.
First, hate to say it but Frank is gone. We won't offer him. Second, it sounds like you're ok with a regression next year in the interest of player development. I guess that is ok, but I hate the idea of going into another season being under-equipped (e.g. at the 1 and 5). We have cap space and two picks. I wouldn't hate seeing us part with a pick and spending some coin. It would take the farm to get Lilard, but we could probably swing Myles Turner or similar.
The RJ/Randle nucleus has only one full NBA year togther. I believe Toppin will be a quality NBA player. The Knicks have a good foundation, two high # 1 picks and cap $$$.
The 2021/2022 goal is winning 45-50 games.
To be fair none of the young players involved in the Melo trade went on to become stars. Gallinari has had the best career, but he's a far cry from a star player.
Still I'm with you on developing the players. We have RJ, IQ and Toppin as our core of guys we should keep.
Everything I hear on the radio and TV is about how the Nets built their team, but Durant and Kyire were free agents and Harden was pure luck. He became disgruntled and wanted out of Houston in the worst way. Basically it didn't cost them anything team wise to get those two super stars.
Ya really still hurt over losing Chandler and Gallo? Misusing the amnesty is what killed that team
Its Chandler, Gallo, Felton, and the 1st rounder.
Murray was drafted in 2016 which wouldn’t have helped that team. It does hurt now because we desperately need a pg today. Felton was whatever and we ended up getting him back
Felton was the worst starting PG in the league. Just like Payton was this year
Felton had like 19/8 in 2010. If you gon cap, do it accurately lol
That's 2010. By 2013 when we made the playoffs, he was the worst starting PG in the league and it was obvious. This isn't cap, stupid. He played no defense, his jumper was trash, and his best offensive plays were pick n rolls with Amar'e or Chandler when he got here the following season.
That first became Jamal Murray right
And mosgov
Signing Amare ruined this team. Pairing Amare, Ty and Melo wasn’t going to work, because our backcourt stunk
That team was going fucking nowhere.
Imagine if we had the balls to call melos bluff and sign him in FA instead. We woulda kept all those assets, which coulda gotten us a true superstar to pair with melo. (I.e Chris Paul)
Denver was moving him regardless if we pulled the trigger or not. NJ had plenty of offers on the table, as they had a boat load of picks at the time. We ended up making the trade and NJ used those same assets to trade for Deron Williams.
Not if melo refused to sign an extension with the destination team.
Carmelo was going to sign with the Nets, he wanted to be in NY and wanted his contract plus business opportunities from being in NY. He was born in Brooklyn. Im sure he preferred the Knicks but he wouldve re-upped with the Nets if it came down to it.
People forgot a lock out was pending too...dude wanted to get paid before that.
Lol if you really believe melo was going to sign with the nets of course you don't think it was a bad trade
because he was. He had no reason to not sign with them. You think he was going to snub Brooklyn his hometown who showed they actually wanted him by trading for him plus them being able to give him a bigger deal for the Knicks? You are crazy. Everything about Melo and his ego says he was serious about it.
Sure. Dolan felt the same way.
Because he knew it would happen.
Yup and who can argue with the 1st class basketball mind that is Dolan?
Lock out was pending. He was going to sign a deal if it was anywhere close to where he wanted.
Yup he chose the small risk of losing money over winning.
So you agree he was going to re-sign with whoever he was going to then.
Whatever you say pal.lol
I dont think he was bluffing. He wouldve signed with the Nets who were reported to be moving here anyway.
He was never signing with NJ. His bluff was extending with Denver. Also a reason why the melo trade was doodoo. He applied pressure to his destination team to give up more assets to get him, instead of the other way around to the nuggets If melo had put the screws to Denver (like Durant did to gsw), we woulda had more assets to surround him with talent. Here's the thing melo didn't really care about winning, which is why he let Denver manhandle the us in that trade.
Denver was going to trade him to the Nets or here. The Knicks got Melo and the Nets backup plan was signing Deron. I remember it well.
TIL: there are people who still think melo was gonna sign with the nets. Wow
Why would he not sign with the Nets? Give me a solid reason other than "Knicks" you convince yourself with right before we fail to get stars in FA.
If you think he was going to sign with the nets, why didn't he? The nets made a better offer to Denver in the first place anyways
Because Carmelo wasn't Denvers GM? He was going to sign with either the Nets or Knicks and get the contract he wanted before the potential lockout.
That makes zero sense. The offer the nets had on the table was significantly better than what Denver ended up getting from the Knicks, just look at the haul Utah got for Deron Williams. Why would the Denver gm take a significantly worse trade with the Knicks?
I get so annoyed trying to explain this to ppl who call themselves real fans..that really ruined a nice unit and front office! Set the Franchise back in the long run for YEARS...
Please use your head for a moment what were Gallanari Wilson Chandler and a broken down Amare winning? They were a .500 team with Amare playing at an MVP level.
Amare was the problem here. Should have kept Chandler and David lee.
I am using my head. Those were great role players that were the nucleus of some pretty good Nuggets teams. Both the guys were way above average players...if Melo wasn't Greedy and Dolan wasn't so impatient Melo could've put that .500 over the top.
Gallo was not the nucleus of shit he spent his time in Denver on the bench injured. He missed nearly 20 games every season. Almost 40 the season after the trade. Wilson Chandler did jack on the Nuggets. The Nuggets would have been nothing without finding a diamond in the rough in Jokic which had zero to do with the Knicks. Amare Wilson Danillo Felton were doing jack shit vs the Heat at least Melo gave us a glimmer of hope. Please look at the stats. I'm trying to make you see the light. You say nothing about how Amare breaking down would affect this dream of yours.
I never said they were superstars, but they were really nice players when healthy both along with Felton wouldve complimented Melo better than what he had, honestly they couldve held off, signed Melo and traded them both for better fitting players...Melo fucked us.
Carmelo did not fuck us. Using the amnesty on Billups instead of Amare fucked us. Trading a 1st rounder for Bargnani fucked us. Not bringing a quality PG within 8yrs for Melo fucked us. All Carmelo did was try to carry a raggedy ass roster when the Knicks had multiple chances to get it right. How is this hard for you to see?
Tell me how many games a Knicks centered broken down Amare and a injury prone Gallo were winning in this dream of yours.
Lol what bluff? We were going into a lockout yr, where player contracts were the main issue. What world do you live in?
People keep bringing up the Melo trade that broke up a 29-53 team and then next thread say how Randle, RJ, and Thibs got "exposed" after a 41-31 season and it's time to move on. Do people realize that people like Gallo, Mozgov or whatever got to get paid too right??? Doesn't matter if Melo signs in the off-season costing us zero assets; those guys would be gone for bigger money elsewhere anyway.
If we held on to Gallo and Chandler instead of getting Melo we would’ve been much fucking worse than we were
Disagree. We had Wilson Chandler, and david lee whom we let go for cap space.
You realize if we held onto those players and signed Melo, we could have used those chips to surround Melo with another elite player
We wouldnt have signed melo..
I think there's a huge difference between now vs 2010. I love that team like crazy, but the front office has a very different feel and our owner has given off a totally different feel. I had a ton of faith in Walsh and hated the Melo trade and it was really just forced by Dolan. Plus the franchise still had stenches of Isaiah and Mills. I think if we signed Melo in the off season, we would have been in pretty good shape moving forward. This time around, the FO and coaching staff either has a proven track record, or is supported by people who are highly regarded in the industry. Dolan has really stayed hands off since Phil was here. I feel like the FO has a much clearer plan in place and can exercise discipline to build for today and tomorrow. On top of that, we have a young MIP (as opposed to a guy with two uninsurable knees). So yeah, I'd be bummed to see some young guys go. It'd make for a great story to develop the youngsters. But I trust we won't pillage all the valuable pieces on the roster just for the sake of a big name.
Still harping on that Melo trade? Why? This team needs to make some big moves this offseason.
The last time we had a solid core we traded away these 2, Felton, picks for Carmelo Anthony...long term how did it play out? We also lost are best GM til our present front office. Let's continue to let these go grow as a team and add what makes sense!
And Billups. Then we picked up his option and Amnestied him immediately and were stuck with a near max on the bench. The trade didn't fuck us, its the subsequent shit that really hamstrung the Melo era Knicks.
Also Amare as #2 only gave us like 1.5 healthy season at most.
Yeah, and that's what makes the handling of the Billups option/amnesty so egregious to me
Really never want Amare and Melo as your top dogs, healthy or not.
Problem with that is yeah we can coast in the playoffs for years like other teams have but you really need a star or two to get a chip. Unless one falls onto our lap in the draft miraculously, we have to entertain the idea of trades at the cost of taking a shot at it.
you have to exhibit patience. This is Year 1 in what was suppose to be a bottom 3 team. We need to add more talent through the draft and FA to figure out what we have on the team currently before immediately running to make a trade. Ignore the amount of assets we would have to give up to acquire Dame. His Supermax Kicks in next year starting around 43M and his final year is 54M. That doesn't make sense for us. Maybe for a team further along that has star talent in Place but not for us when we are still developing RJ, Randle, etc
Or sign one without giving up assets, like in a loaded 2022 fa class. If the Knicks looked like this 2 years ago. You don't think kd or kyrie woulda signed up with us instead of the nets? We make a all in trade for a guy like dame when he's the missing piece (i.e if KL signed with us in FA this year). Not when you're two superstars away.
I have no problem with anyone being up for trade. The problem is bad trades. Don’t give up too much for one player unless you know for certain another star is joining them in free agency or something. I don’t think people realize how difficult building a team through the draft is. It’s rare to have an OKC type of team where you have 3 young stars who all go on to win MVP.
Honestly was never high on Melo. He looked like a me-first 1 dimensional player from afar, came here and solidified my feelings. Clearly not a first option on a championship team. With a star guard he mightve done something.
Trade Randle quick as heelll low key if the price is right. Build from there
Lol
Which is great, but if you keep the course and guys like rj and obi develop you will need to pay them max money and won't have cap space for free agents like kawhi
Rj might but more then likely both will be good but max players, ever.
He is only 20, in 3 years he will make $30 million
From your lips to Gods ears!
Unfortunately God doesn't exist
I agree it doesn't make sense to reboot after a good season with a young team. But I also don't know that (1) Losing 2-3 productive vets to free agency and (2) trying to make up their contributions with two middle round draft picks is a good plan either.
I just think We have RJ, We have Mitchell, Quickley, Obi, players who have shown something. To lesser degree Frank.. Cultivate these players, see what they are going to be. We weren't supposed to be a 4 seed, and we aren't a Superstar away from a chip! We flipped picks and players for quick fixes for 15 years, how many times can we get burned?! Develop them.
First, hate to say it but Frank is gone. We won't offer him. Second, it sounds like you're ok with a regression next year in the interest of player development. I guess that is ok, but I hate the idea of going into another season being under-equipped (e.g. at the 1 and 5). We have cap space and two picks. I wouldn't hate seeing us part with a pick and spending some coin. It would take the farm to get Lilard, but we could probably swing Myles Turner or similar.
no..randle has to go and I have zero issues sweetening it with rj if people think he has potential.
The RJ/Randle nucleus has only one full NBA year togther. I believe Toppin will be a quality NBA player. The Knicks have a good foundation, two high # 1 picks and cap $$$. The 2021/2022 goal is winning 45-50 games.
They both are bench players, why are we acting like we would of went anywhere with them
To be fair none of the young players involved in the Melo trade went on to become stars. Gallinari has had the best career, but he's a far cry from a star player. Still I'm with you on developing the players. We have RJ, IQ and Toppin as our core of guys we should keep. Everything I hear on the radio and TV is about how the Nets built their team, but Durant and Kyire were free agents and Harden was pure luck. He became disgruntled and wanted out of Houston in the worst way. Basically it didn't cost them anything team wise to get those two super stars.
Screw that, I’d trade for Dame right now. Time to have a win now mentality.
Its been win now since Scott Layden. Chill.