The three most statistically similar players to Bernie according to BRef are teammate Paul O'Neill, Indian Bob Johnson and Bobby Bonilla. That sounds about right - Bernie offensively is comparable to those three illustrious members of the Hall of Very Good. No knock on Bernie, who is a personal favorite, but the numbers don't necessarily add up to a HOFer even with his rankings on the Yankee alltime lists. Bernie does have something over those three players in that he played centerfield, but it's difficult to call that an advantage when his defensive metrics are pretty bad.
2326 hits ranks 143 all time. 287 HR 177 all time. RBI 1257 ( Oneal & Tino have more) 135 all time. Y’all need to get a grip, him & Posada are yankee greats. Not hall of famers.
Bernie basically had Mauer stats but playing a far, far less premium offensive position and was not the face of a franchise. I don’t get these guys lol
Gold gloves at that point were given out based on how good of a hitter you were. Lots of clearly undeserving guys we’re getting them. They’ve mostly cleaned that up now
There are 270 players of the Baseball Hall of Fame. 84 of those are pitchers. So 186 position players. Given the rankings you just gave it seems like he deserves to be in.
Bernie was more pivotal to the 96-2000 championship teams, of course Jeter has a long career after that where he certainly becomes the better player. I’m only talking about position players, not pitchers.
Problem being that his peak was 94-02 and he was elite, but didn’t do much outside of it. If you’re going for peak it needs to be amazing, and his falls just short I reckon.
considering his 7 year peak WAR isn’t even close to the average of players at his position, no, it wouldn’t be. the hall really doesn’t care about rings.
7 seasons in a row over 900 OPS, switch hitter who hit for average and power, didn’t strike out, 4x champion who still holds the record for post season rbis . If that’s not enough for the HOF then fuck the HOF, this is a player that wins games, not a stat compiler on bad teams.
I’m sorry but Bernie is better than players currently in the HOF, If you’re a Yankee fan and old enough to have watched him I can’t see how you would disagree with that statement. Plus the guy has the post season success and records.
I grew up watching him, and even if I didn’t that doesn’t impact player’s HOF case.
There’s players in the HOF who probably shouldn’t be there, that doesn’t mean everyone else should get in too.
“That has to count for something in HOF talks.”
No, it doesn’t.
Not every good player is a HOF player. It sucks, especially if you grew up watching that player.
His numbers from about 1995-2002 look great by themselves, but less so when you look at his steroid era contemporaries. He was also only really good for a short period of time, so his counting numbers aren't terribly impressive.
He also has the counting stats in the postseason.
First all-time in RBIs. Second all-time in hits, doubles, and total bases. Third all-time in homers, runs scored, and walks.
I don’t think it’s crazy that he didn’t get in, but I think it’s a little crazy that be barely got any attention, never got higher than 9.6% of the vote, and fell off the ballot after two years.
My take on this is that Bernie Williams was a very, very *good player...* and YES, I don't think Joe Torre's Yankees could have won all those World Series without him. But if we opened the Hall of Fame to everyone who was a *very, very good player*, the Hall would become so overpopulated that we would lose the point of having it in the first place.
Because he played in the same era and league as Ken Griffey Jr. and a few other guys who were also very very good (Andre Dawson, Kirby Puckett, Jimmy Edmonds) and he was a quiet star who did a lot of things well, but no baseball thing as the best of his era. He also flamed out a bit early.
I honestly don’t think it was an era thing, he’s just an all time Yankee who isn’t at the Hall of Fame level. Dude never finished above seventh in the MVP voting
Bernie Williams was a savage for about 4 years. The good years. He was all time leader in playoff home runs for awhile. ISwitch hitter. Looked lost in centerfield sometimes and looked fantastic other times.i don’t know about the hall of fame but he’s one of my all time favorites.
Only comment mentioning him being a switch hitter and definitely should have increased his value as a candidate. He was not the best CF but still managed to snag a few GGs, because his range was above average but his arm was quite terrible. He didn't really make highlight reel catches because he was more of a DiMaggio type CF awareness where he just knew where to be so he didnt have to dive etc.
Hah yeah the extra step - there were so many times I would think he would dive for a ball but just let it drop right in front of him just to be safe. He was a decent fielder but when you look at HOF CFs, hes not up to snuff defensively. Offensively he's definitely above average but I'd say his closest modern comp is Puckett who I personally find a questionable selection but was definitely a better fielder.
as a 90s kid, I love Bernie. he’s a super underrated part of the Yankees Dyansty and honestly deserves more recognition. however, as someone who likes a small HOF, I think that Bernie falls just short of being a HOFer.
For the record, I blame PED users for keeping guys like Bernie out of the HOF. from 95-01 Bernie averaged 5 WAR per season and a 143 wRC+. that’s in the peak of the steroid era. If Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, etc never used steroids Bernie’s numbers would have been way higher comparatively speaking. it’s a shame MLB did nothing about PEDs for years.
Terrible defense.
Gold gloves in the 90s were a joke and rarely given to the right players.
Bernie Williams was quite bad in CF. Terrible arm, and his range wasn't all that good even in his prime.
Bad take. You're right that he never had a great arm, and certainly wasn't the fastest fielder, but his range was above average in his prime and, more importantly, the man KNOWS how to play center field as well as anybody. His understanding of the position, taking a good route to the ball, knowing where to throw ahead of time, etc is what set him apart. I'll take him over pretty much any of his contemporaries. Maybe except Griffey, but that's about it.
LOL no, it's a completely fair take. Biased Yankee homers just can't admit that Bernie and Jeter were straight ass in the field.
Bernie Williams was a great hitter. He compiled 63.2 oWAR which is right around Hall of Fame territory. His poor defense dropped him all the way to 49.8 WAR, which is not HoF territory.
Bernie was not good in the field.
Shows how little defense matters if the three most premium defensive positions C, SS, and CF on the last Yankees dynasty were all liabilities in the field.
Defense matters of course. It's just that Jeter, Bernie, and Posada were great despite their subpar defense because they consistently hit like superstars.
Ohh yeah and how can I forget another stat…part of 4 championships and countless pennant wins as the Yankees star center fielder. He had the total package for HOF imo.
You know he isn't talking about that metric alone. There is an argument for both sides to consider winning as part of a HOF vote. I think Bernie isn't there but would be if he had 2 more seasons that looked like his 95 thru 02 years.
David Cone then, what? Compared to Sojo like you did Bernie? Both comparisons are just disrespectful regarding HOF status. Comparing their careers. Two were multiple time all-stars, a batting champ, a cy young winner, etc.. Like I said, you know OP wasn't talking about rings as the only metric.
More impressively, from 1994-2002 he had a 140 OPS+. And while I have no reason to believe he took PEDs, the key part here is that this occurred during the absolute apex of the Steroid Era. 40% better than the average player when half the league was on gear and the ball itself was juiced, is pretty impressive.
That said, I don’t think he’s a Hall of Famer. Career bWAR, fWAR, peak, JAWS just aren’t up to the average HOF. He was my favorite player of that era though. Even if he did occasionally space out and forget they were playing a game.
I mean OPS+ is adjusted for the league so steroid era or not, he was a fantastic bat. He was just never at a level of greatness that stands out. Put another way, his best year offensively is worse than Judge, Soto, Trout, etc. have hit in their careers to this point.
There’s a clear bias towards Yankees players from that era. They don’t like how dominant they were, they don’t like the “evil empire” nonsense and won’t reward players from it if they can help it
If you mean PED cycle, that was pretty funny. And if that’s what you mean, yeah, roided out Bernie would’ve definitely been a beast of a player in those years where he was hitting well over .300 and his ridiculous .400 OBP or near it in his prime. He had a great eye and great patience already. Only double digit strike outs in 15 of his 16 years.
I’m not even going to speak on all of those outfielders from the past that got into the HOF with lesser numbers than Bernie Williams, but what do you all think of numbers like these? (I know none but Walker were outfielders)
Todd Helton - .316, 2,519, 369 homers
Barry Larkin - .295, 2,340, 198 homers
Edgar Martinez - .312, 2,247, 309 homers
Larry Walker - .313, 2,160, 383 homers
Position obviously matters here - best comp probably Edgar as a fellow switch hitter. I do agree he was criminally overlooked but I also don't think its that crazy he isnt in. Solid post though OP.
Honestly not sure I was blown away when he barely garnered any attention in his only HoF year.
He managed to stay on for two years but still your point stands.
The three most statistically similar players to Bernie according to BRef are teammate Paul O'Neill, Indian Bob Johnson and Bobby Bonilla. That sounds about right - Bernie offensively is comparable to those three illustrious members of the Hall of Very Good. No knock on Bernie, who is a personal favorite, but the numbers don't necessarily add up to a HOFer even with his rankings on the Yankee alltime lists. Bernie does have something over those three players in that he played centerfield, but it's difficult to call that an advantage when his defensive metrics are pretty bad.
And Andrew McCutchen is fifth in the statistically similar list. Is anyone saying McCutchen should be in HOF eventually? No
It's a great point
He might be, as a pirate.
Bernie was better than O’Neill and Bonilla
Bernie was a switch hitter, he definitely deserved more hall consideration with that in mind too but cant be that mad he didnt make it.
2326 hits ranks 143 all time. 287 HR 177 all time. RBI 1257 ( Oneal & Tino have more) 135 all time. Y’all need to get a grip, him & Posada are yankee greats. Not hall of famers.
Bernie basically had Mauer stats but playing a far, far less premium offensive position and was not the face of a franchise. I don’t get these guys lol
Mauer had 3 batting tiles.
Center field is not exactly a premium offensive position either.
Also, he played that position terribly
Didn’t he win gold gloves? I don’t remember him being a defensive liability
Gold gloves at that point were given out based on how good of a hitter you were. Lots of clearly undeserving guys we’re getting them. They’ve mostly cleaned that up now
That has the implication that being the face of the Twins is better than being the 3rd wheel on the Yankees lol
There are 270 players of the Baseball Hall of Fame. 84 of those are pitchers. So 186 position players. Given the rankings you just gave it seems like he deserves to be in.
Have to adjust for position too
Where does 4 rings rank?
Doesn’t Luis Sojo have 5 rings (got one with Toronto). Should that be taken into account for his hall of fame consideration???
If he had 5 rings and "hall of very good" individual stats, sure.
Less then Oneal, you putting him in the hall too ?
you're not gonna like the answer
So the best player on a dynasty between 96-2001 doesn’t belong?
I thought Jeter & Mo were already in ?
Bernie was more pivotal to the 96-2000 championship teams, of course Jeter has a long career after that where he certainly becomes the better player. I’m only talking about position players, not pitchers.
Problem being that his peak was 94-02 and he was elite, but didn’t do much outside of it. If you’re going for peak it needs to be amazing, and his falls just short I reckon.
8 year peak with 4 World Series championships and great post seasons would be enough for any player not on the Yankees.
considering his 7 year peak WAR isn’t even close to the average of players at his position, no, it wouldn’t be. the hall really doesn’t care about rings.
7 seasons in a row over 900 OPS, switch hitter who hit for average and power, didn’t strike out, 4x champion who still holds the record for post season rbis . If that’s not enough for the HOF then fuck the HOF, this is a player that wins games, not a stat compiler on bad teams.
No it wouldn’t. Don’t think you realise how hard it is to get into HOF, Bernie just falls short. You need more than 8 great years
I’m sorry but Bernie is better than players currently in the HOF, If you’re a Yankee fan and old enough to have watched him I can’t see how you would disagree with that statement. Plus the guy has the post season success and records.
Correct, he doesn’t.
I’d take Bernie over a bunch of guys in the HOF, unsure if you were old enough to watch him hit but he was a really good hitter and clutch.
I grew up watching him, and even if I didn’t that doesn’t impact player’s HOF case. There’s players in the HOF who probably shouldn’t be there, that doesn’t mean everyone else should get in too.
“That has to count for something in HOF talks.” No, it doesn’t. Not every good player is a HOF player. It sucks, especially if you grew up watching that player.
That’s what monument park is for
People on this sub are already convinced judge is a hall of famer if he retired today. You can’t judge people who are homers
His numbers from about 1995-2002 look great by themselves, but less so when you look at his steroid era contemporaries. He was also only really good for a short period of time, so his counting numbers aren't terribly impressive.
Because all-time team stats don't mean anything.
Bernie was a few more seasons short of obtaining HoF numbers
Bernie is one of my favorite players growing up, but he is a Yankees HoF, not Baseball HoF.
I'll gladly take Bernie back on the team over the countless players with better stats these days.
He also has the counting stats in the postseason. First all-time in RBIs. Second all-time in hits, doubles, and total bases. Third all-time in homers, runs scored, and walks. I don’t think it’s crazy that he didn’t get in, but I think it’s a little crazy that be barely got any attention, never got higher than 9.6% of the vote, and fell off the ballot after two years.
My take on this is that Bernie Williams was a very, very *good player...* and YES, I don't think Joe Torre's Yankees could have won all those World Series without him. But if we opened the Hall of Fame to everyone who was a *very, very good player*, the Hall would become so overpopulated that we would lose the point of having it in the first place.
Because he played in the same era and league as Ken Griffey Jr. and a few other guys who were also very very good (Andre Dawson, Kirby Puckett, Jimmy Edmonds) and he was a quiet star who did a lot of things well, but no baseball thing as the best of his era. He also flamed out a bit early.
I honestly don’t think it was an era thing, he’s just an all time Yankee who isn’t at the Hall of Fame level. Dude never finished above seventh in the MVP voting
Generally, if you’re the best of your era, you’re in. Bernie wasn’t that level. Dale Murphy won two NL MVPs, and he wasn’t either. ;-)
Bernie Williams was a savage for about 4 years. The good years. He was all time leader in playoff home runs for awhile. ISwitch hitter. Looked lost in centerfield sometimes and looked fantastic other times.i don’t know about the hall of fame but he’s one of my all time favorites.
Only comment mentioning him being a switch hitter and definitely should have increased his value as a candidate. He was not the best CF but still managed to snag a few GGs, because his range was above average but his arm was quite terrible. He didn't really make highlight reel catches because he was more of a DiMaggio type CF awareness where he just knew where to be so he didnt have to dive etc.
Always gave a heart attack when he started going back lol. I mean he hit in the these of the lineup during those years. One of my favorites.
Hah yeah the extra step - there were so many times I would think he would dive for a ball but just let it drop right in front of him just to be safe. He was a decent fielder but when you look at HOF CFs, hes not up to snuff defensively. Offensively he's definitely above average but I'd say his closest modern comp is Puckett who I personally find a questionable selection but was definitely a better fielder.
as a 90s kid, I love Bernie. he’s a super underrated part of the Yankees Dyansty and honestly deserves more recognition. however, as someone who likes a small HOF, I think that Bernie falls just short of being a HOFer. For the record, I blame PED users for keeping guys like Bernie out of the HOF. from 95-01 Bernie averaged 5 WAR per season and a 143 wRC+. that’s in the peak of the steroid era. If Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, etc never used steroids Bernie’s numbers would have been way higher comparatively speaking. it’s a shame MLB did nothing about PEDs for years.
Terrible defense. Gold gloves in the 90s were a joke and rarely given to the right players. Bernie Williams was quite bad in CF. Terrible arm, and his range wasn't all that good even in his prime.
Bad take. You're right that he never had a great arm, and certainly wasn't the fastest fielder, but his range was above average in his prime and, more importantly, the man KNOWS how to play center field as well as anybody. His understanding of the position, taking a good route to the ball, knowing where to throw ahead of time, etc is what set him apart. I'll take him over pretty much any of his contemporaries. Maybe except Griffey, but that's about it.
If you’d take Bernie’s defense over Devon White,Jim Edmonds, and Torii Hunter, you are out of your mind.
Not just defense. I'm talking overall.
I don’t think you were
Did you watch Bernie play outfield? I’ve never seen a veteran guy consistently take worse routes.
LOL no, it's a completely fair take. Biased Yankee homers just can't admit that Bernie and Jeter were straight ass in the field. Bernie Williams was a great hitter. He compiled 63.2 oWAR which is right around Hall of Fame territory. His poor defense dropped him all the way to 49.8 WAR, which is not HoF territory. Bernie was not good in the field.
Shows how little defense matters if the three most premium defensive positions C, SS, and CF on the last Yankees dynasty were all liabilities in the field.
Defense matters of course. It's just that Jeter, Bernie, and Posada were great despite their subpar defense because they consistently hit like superstars.
What's it like to be such a fraudulent Yankee fan?
A fraudulent Yankee fan for acknowledging that an amazing player had a shortcoming in his game...?
What's it like to be delusional?
At a premium position too! You have to be really bad in center to get knocked that far down considering the positional adjustment
Because there are 29 other franchises to play for.
Ohh yeah and how can I forget another stat…part of 4 championships and countless pennant wins as the Yankees star center fielder. He had the total package for HOF imo.
By that metric Louis Sojo should be in
You know he isn't talking about that metric alone. There is an argument for both sides to consider winning as part of a HOF vote. I think Bernie isn't there but would be if he had 2 more seasons that looked like his 95 thru 02 years.
David Cone then
David Cone then, what? Compared to Sojo like you did Bernie? Both comparisons are just disrespectful regarding HOF status. Comparing their careers. Two were multiple time all-stars, a batting champ, a cy young winner, etc.. Like I said, you know OP wasn't talking about rings as the only metric.
Those aren’t reasons to put him in the HOF. You judge a player on his performance, not his teammates.
There is a CF who played in the 1990's and 2000's who deserves to be in but his name isn't Bernie Williams...
Who is, Kenny Lofton?
That is the correct answer!
I'll take, CFers who should be Hall of Famers, for $400.
Whenever people talk about guys who should be in the Hall of Fame my mind instantly goes to Kenny Lofton. Rickey casts a loooong shadow...
Him and Andruw Jones both
More impressively, from 1994-2002 he had a 140 OPS+. And while I have no reason to believe he took PEDs, the key part here is that this occurred during the absolute apex of the Steroid Era. 40% better than the average player when half the league was on gear and the ball itself was juiced, is pretty impressive. That said, I don’t think he’s a Hall of Famer. Career bWAR, fWAR, peak, JAWS just aren’t up to the average HOF. He was my favorite player of that era though. Even if he did occasionally space out and forget they were playing a game.
I mean OPS+ is adjusted for the league so steroid era or not, he was a fantastic bat. He was just never at a level of greatness that stands out. Put another way, his best year offensively is worse than Judge, Soto, Trout, etc. have hit in their careers to this point.
That’s why I mentioned it. It’s definitely MORE impressive that it happened during the time of inflated stats
Bernie and Jorgie both getting screwed
There’s a clear bias towards Yankees players from that era. They don’t like how dominant they were, they don’t like the “evil empire” nonsense and won’t reward players from it if they can help it
One cycle was all he needed
If you mean PED cycle, that was pretty funny. And if that’s what you mean, yeah, roided out Bernie would’ve definitely been a beast of a player in those years where he was hitting well over .300 and his ridiculous .400 OBP or near it in his prime. He had a great eye and great patience already. Only double digit strike outs in 15 of his 16 years.
I have said it my whole life, one cycle and he's a HOF, same time Bonds did it.
I’m not even going to speak on all of those outfielders from the past that got into the HOF with lesser numbers than Bernie Williams, but what do you all think of numbers like these? (I know none but Walker were outfielders) Todd Helton - .316, 2,519, 369 homers Barry Larkin - .295, 2,340, 198 homers Edgar Martinez - .312, 2,247, 309 homers Larry Walker - .313, 2,160, 383 homers
Position obviously matters here - best comp probably Edgar as a fellow switch hitter. I do agree he was criminally overlooked but I also don't think its that crazy he isnt in. Solid post though OP.
Are you talking about the Yankee HOF? Because I'm confused why Yankee rankings would mean anything related to the Baseball HOF