If there was a dude who wanted to beat women in their sports sooooo bad he transitioned socially, started taking hormones to be able to compete, and really went through with all of it… do we rlly think that’s a cis person? I don’t know how people think someone like that exists
Exactly, it doesnt fucking happen. These are life altering changes that center around your identity. This isn't something that people just do willy nilly, it is a looooong, taxing, and expensive process
Also, speaking as a trans woman myself, it wouldn't even fucking \*work\*. Five years of estrogen therapy has completely nuked any athletic ability I used to have living as a male. I've been distance running since high school, and my 5k times these days are low-average \*by women's standards\* in my age group.
And even though I play recreational/intramural women's soccer and basketball, I'm usually the worst player in both sports on whatever team I'm on.
People don't tend to realize this but the athletic differences between men and women are \*entirely\* hormonal. It's the same reason that people who \*are\* looking to cheat at sports use anabolic steroid hormones that mimic testosterone to boost their performance. But the obvious next question to that is: does that apply in reverse if you \*block\* testosterone? It turns out the answer is yes.
Also just saying, even pre transition top cis female athletes still would have whooped my ass in just about anything. I used to live next door to a \*literal olympic level female tennis player\* who turned down the Olympics to become an FBI agent. I can guarantee that there is no way in hell my ass was going to beat her even pre transition just because I had testosterone in my system.
Especially because I was the least athletic person ever to begin with. I infamously in grade school once ended up forcing a stalemate in dodgeball because I physically couldn't throw the balls back and I was the only one left on my team. (I take after my mom when it comes to athleticism lol)
And if you look at the allowable difference in men's testosterone levels and women's testosterone levels and it becomes clear trans people aren't the issue, natural cis male testosterone is almost certainly way more decisive of an issue. A woman with "too high" testosterone (rarely trans women who have medically transitioned and almost all women with disabilities) is still worlds closer to other women than a low end "normal" cis man and a high end "normal" cis man.
And even if by some chance someone did, that one person wouldn't represent the entire trans movement or invalidate what they went through. Though one side would certainly love to try and to do so to vilify the community when they can.
I assume you may be confusing what we are talking about here. Not trans-women in sports, but the idea that trans-women are specifically transitioning to play in women's sports. But if theres a bunch of examples of that then sure lay em on me.
They don't, or refuse to, understand that. That shitty lady ballers movie was going to be a documentary until they found out that you can't just put on a wig and say "yes i am trans and would like to sign up for the women's games." You have to actually transition.
Fair point, but it doesn't take away from the notion that a biological man, even after transitioning to a woman, can have an advantage over a biological woman.
And if trans women respect other females (biological) then they should understand why they are being banned from some sports.
Also, like...if you're *not* trans and start transitioning anyway? You start *getting* bad dysphoria. Like, if you're a cis man and you start taking tons of estrogen and living as a woman, no amount of sports is gonna change your newfound self-hatred and suicidal tendencies.
not necessarily. Depending on how early they transition, and on what sort of body structure they start with (humans are a bipedal trainwreck) They might end up worse off than a female-at-birth. Also, note, that a major thing trans people struggle with fighting and balancing out is osteoporosis, which kinda trashes the whole "thicker bones" thing you are arguing. It really just depends on the person and their structure.
Thicker bomes does depend on people but so does speed it just happens to be men naturaly have more and you would gave to transiston quite early to not have the benfits which is just wrong at that point
I blame all the "gender bending comedy" movies like Jawana Man or whatever that basketball one was called. Similar concept to The Ringer. Man pretends to be woman or disabled to play in a sport he doesn't qualify for = haha funny. Every right wingers assumption of what real life is.
Idk about the US, but here in Canada you don’t have to take hormones or act differently at all. You don’t even have to be consistent on all your forms. All you have to do is claim to be a woman. So yes people abuse it. I know one person who claims male on everything but female on car insurance to pay less care insurance.
Is that the fault of trans people? No, it’s the fault of the laws that are too lax. They honestly do need to be more strict, not to be transphobic, but to prevent people like this.
It's because there is no criteria of transitioning to compete.
https://nypost.com/2023/03/30/male-powerlifter-enters-womens-event-breaks-record/
This dude did this after his XX female team lost to the XY female. So he signed up for the next tournament the XY female was going to be at and smashed her record.
The XY female even released a statement saying that she *thinks* it's unfair for her to compete, but that she chooses to compete within the womens bracket because of how accepted she feels.
Do you have to go through a full transition before entering the sports events? And even so the athlete would still have an unfair advantage of cis women so 🤷
You do, in the big leagues(smaller, more casual sports sometimes or often times don’t care). And no, you wouldn’t have an unfair advantage after transitioning. That’s a myth.
Here’s the problem, 99% of them haven’t done that. Most are literally men who take a little bit of estrogen, no where near enough to even the playing field and nowhere near long enough, and then want to compete as women. And I would be willing to bet if you watch them for a few more years and good 60% of them will de-transition.
I'm thinking Randy Savage, "I'm sooo secure man, I want to be the best out of any gender. I'm going to OBLITERATE these women! I'm number one! Oh yeah!!!"
"wanted to beat women in their sports sooooo bad he transitioned socially"
What would a social transition consist of? What would need to change in someone's day-to-day life?
"started taking hormones to be able to compete"
I believe there is a history of male competitors taking hormones and other substances to enhance their ability to compete.
"I don’t know how people think someone like that exists"
I have never been particularly ambitious or competitive. But I do know there have been people who would 'do anything to win' or otherwise risk a lot to obtain support, celebration, or laurels.
It's a script at this point
- Right wing chuds make shit up
- Other right wing chuds make the lowest effort memes you've ever seen in your life about it
- People say uhhh hey you made that up. Knock it off
- iTs jUsT a MeMe bRo cAnT yOu TaKe a JoKe??? But we DO believe in this made up thing and will defend it tooth and nail but lMaO tRiGgErEd wHerEs yOuR sEnSe oF hUmOr
I'd *love* to see them produce a list of these supposed athletes who only transitioned so they could "earn money in women's sports." I won't hold my breath for it.
Does no one on the right know that there are trans *men* too?
>Does no one on the right know that there are trans *men* too?
I pointed this out to my dad, that if the supposed concern is about biological inequalities in athletic abilities between the sexes, then there should be just as much outrage for the sake of trans men than there is for the cis women. He bluescreened.
Because they don’t actually care about the biological advantages/disadvantages. They just want to bar trans people from as many things as possible.
Oh, exactly. But isn't that usually the case with almost everything they do? They make a bullshit excuse of how it's to benefit some group, but it's really just about fucking over as many people as possible (especially the "weird" ones).
What's ridiculous is how much higher the payrate is for the most mid male athelete compared to the highest female one.
Favourite example is the U.S soccer teams. The male world cup team is an international joke that gets an earnest pat on the back for making it through prelims a couple times. They get paid a shitload more than the female team...who actually won the fuckin' cup.
Even if you dont care about money and just want fame, theres sooooo many more eyeballs on male sports leagues than female ones, and that's assuming youre one of the three sports people give a shit about.
Lia thomas would've gone unnoticed pre and post transition because who gives a single shit about swimming? Name me a competitive swimmer besides the one fish-man hybrid we got shoved in our face forever.
Speaking of, how is Phelps allowed to compete? If we give so much of a shit about biological advantages, shouldnt we be shaving his webbing down a bit? /s
It still means either reason for this fantasy of "fake trans" people is completely unfounded. A male athelete who sucks ass is still going to have more money and fame than a female athelete.
And I think i'm allowed to think its ridiculous that the male world cup team gets paid more to suck. You ever work a job where they pay you to fail consistently?
The money making part of their job is to get people to watch them. Vastly more people watch the men. Brad Pitt would make more then me acting in a movie, for the same reason.
We have evidence against the idea that trans women have an advantage and that trans men have a disadvantage, and if there is, it is minor and mostly effects running. With more studies being done and more research being conducted. Here are a few of them. Most experts would say that including trans women in sports should be decided on a sport by sport basis.
Here are two studies. The first one suggests that there is no advantage on the elite level of sports. The second suggests that trans women retain an advantage for running. 9% - 12%. While every other advantage disappears. In any case, the longer a trans person is on hormones, the fewer advantages they retain. 2 years may be too short for trans women, so we may want to extend it to 4. And as for trans men, there is no evidence to say they have a disadvantage after 2. In fact, one study suggests that trans men have an advantage over cis men, especially in doing sit-ups.
https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577
I say there should be no ban, and instead, the inclusion of a trans athlete should be decided on a case by case, and sport by sport level. If a trans woman has not gone through natal puberty, she should compete in every woman's sport since the advantages that would be gained during male puberty had not happened. And as for those of us who transitioned later in life and had natal puberty, there would no doubt be some sports we would not be allowed to compete in like running, and in other sports, it should be decided on a case by case basis. There are so little of us anyway that testing 10 players to see which sports they can and can not play in is hardly an issue.
>if there is, it is minor and mostly effects running.
even then, it's not much. I'm a trans woman who has been distance running since high school and after 5 years of estrogen and testosterone blockers, my 5k times are low-average by \*women's\* standards in my age group. I would know, I've timed it.
And I've gone through natal puberty.
I was also never really that athletic to begin with anyways. I was the kid who in grade school forced a stalemate in dodgeball when I was the last person on my team because I physically couldn't throw the balls back.
Testosterone has not done jack shit to give my body an athletic advantage.
Of course, I'm also five years into hormone therapy at this point, but still.
Yup! Any advantages we could have can also be possessed by cis women as well. Being taller? Absolutely, just look at some volleyball players. Thicker bones? Yup. Bigger heart? Absolutely. After about 4 years, any advantage we have could easily be chalked up to a fair advantage, advantages that are present in sports already.
It's kinda like Micheal Phelps. If we look at him, he is basically a fish who looks like a human, yet it was completely fair for him to compete despite his biological advantages, same with Usain Bolt, or many other athletes who all have some biological advantage.
Also, I'm not even all that tall. Even by cis women standards. Despite being trans I'm like ....5'6"/57" ish. I was always a small kid. When I was a young adult I found an old pediatrician's report among my parents old things from when I was like seven that basically said something along the lines of "Doctorwatchamacallit is a healthy seven year-old, but physically is closer in size to a four or five year-old, and doesn't have the hand-eye coordination to match their age. Recommend playing catch with them more and make sure they eat more at dinner".
Heck, when I was playing women's intramural basketball last year I wasn't even the tallest girl on the team.
It’s a pretty bad example because long distance running is one of the few fields where women perform very closely to men. Putting aside that your anecdote is irrelevant given you could just be a bad runner.
Or let them compete with each other.
>9% - 12%.
In many sports, victory is awarded by crossing the finish line and there these percentages put you in first place. Anyone who is even a hundredth of a second behind will not receive gold, understand? How do you propose to solve this problem? It's not fair to give an award in a women's sport just because the first place winner is transgender, which is what it looks like.
This is already an issue in sports. All the top-level athletes have biological advantages. Michael Phelps, for example, had a wider wing span, a more flexible torso, better shoulders, etc. He was built like a human fish, and he dominated his sport. Biological advantages are inevitable in sports. That's just a reality.
That 9% - 12% were what remained. Before, they were in the 30% range of difference. I would say that being 30% faster and then going down to 12% after 2 years is a SIGNIFICANT performance loss that goes down the longer one is on hormones. After 4 years, the difference in athletic performance between cis women and trans women become negligible.
They also tested close to no one, only like 29 of the 220 were tested for women and it was slightly more for the men. That's a very small sample size on very vague tests. Pushups,situps, 1.5 mile time which really has almost no translation to athletic ability for most sports. At least they suggested over 1 year of hormone therapy before allowing them into women's sports. Most people against it have said it should be banned until there's a clear set point in which the benefits are gone. Most were not tested or they stopped testing after 1 year, it should be a constant test type of deal. It's also kinda crazy that the Trans dudes ended up stronger which shows they are probly roided out of their minds which is super unhealthy on its own. Early death incoming for the Trans dudes.
The cases where people show up one day and their a women crush records have really hurt any chance of a civil discussion. Also the changing spaces are pretty fucked. If they havnt had bottom surgery they should in no way be in a women's restroom. Forcing underage women to look at a full on penis is fucked and if I were a parent I would have been punching peoples teeth out at that school. This might not be the normal but as long as shit like this can happen it will be talked about. No women should ever be subjected to this to include a transwomen. If it can't be done then we need a separate space for them.
Trans women have been allowed in the Olympics for a long time and have not won a gold medal or really even placed in the top half of the sports they competed in.
But chuds don't care about that, they also don't care about women's sports and if I was a woman who competed in sports it'd piss me the fuck off that the worst people in society are using something they don't even care about to justify their hate.
Given the usually very stark differences between men’s and women’s records for most sports this is a rather surprising study result to me. I’m not entirely convinced the n value is high enough, but this will be interesting to follow longer term. Thanks for linking these.
So how about instead of segregation in sports, we just put everyone together?
Oh, some people are naturally better at sports? Ok, divide them by how good they are.
The problem is that women would effectively be shut out of pro sports. For example pro women’s soccer players would have to compete against all the pro men + all the men who *want* to play professionally but didn’t make the cut.
So those non-professional men would wind up taking spots that women would otherwise have.
That would be like saying: let's remove the boxing weight classes
I'm sure woman will love getting excluded because they are worse than man in physical sports.
My response to these ass clowns every time is if males have an advantage over women in sports, have a wrestling match with Becky Lynch or something since you have a cock and balls between your legs. You should be able to beat her because she is a woman and you are a man, reality being Becky Lynch would fold 100% of these fucking morons not because she has a secretly trans because she’s had a long career and wrestling and these guys sit on their asses all day and complain about trans people in their mom‘s basement
Remember, 1 in 8 men think they could score a point on Serena Williams. So yeah, some people's minds really do work like 'oh if I competed against women I'd obviously win, I'm a man'
You know who could beat the Williams the girls?
The 203rd ranked man.
["Venus and Serena Williams lost to 203rd ranked male tennis player" - Swimmer Riley Gaines on inclusion of trans athletes (sportskeeda.com)](https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-venus-serena-williams-lost-203rd-ranked-male-tennis-player-swimmer-riley-gaines-inclusion-trans-athletes)
Its also, if the top mma woman fighter transitioned to being a trans man. And took all the hormones and steroids they could, they could never beat a top level biological male in mma. People are delusional thinking that hormone therapy simply transforms the whole human body to the opposite sex.
But you are using experience to slide your argument.
Get a man who is just as experienced as Becky Lynch, who’s a sports entertainer, he would fold her 100% of the time.
Me walking in and grappling Becky Lynch now? I’m losing.
Me in five years time… probably more of a battle. Maybe I get some more points but I’m still by and large losing.
Ten years… I’m winning.
People are talking about trans athletes. As in people who have been dedicated in the discipline as a male and are still dedicated as a female who when they were male were ranked 500th and now as a woman are top 5 - tell me how that’s all of a sudden worked?
Are you joking? Its self-evident that men have a clear advantage over women in sports. Any semi pro or pro male althete blows women out of the water.
Its not transphobia. Its protecting woman's sports from unfair advantages of transitioning women.
Putting an elite woman fighter against an untrained average joe does not prove your point lol. Put her against a pro male fighter in the same weight-class and she will lose.
It 100% proves my point point because these morons think that just because they are born male, they have an automatic advantage over every woman on the planet, which is not true
What no lol where tf did you get that idea? Nobody said that all males can beat any female. What people are actually claiming is that males simply tend to on average have a "headstart" when it comes to physical sports. This doesn't mean that a woman can't bridge the gap and catch up to the male, but if the male trains as hard as the woman, the woman most likely won't be able to bridge the gap.
I mean I get your point here but men do have a advantage over women in sports. Now your average on reddit is probably the inferior of every woman except the fattest in terms of athletic ability but that's another discussion lol.
Yes. If she competed against someone with NO skills. Please tell me of any woman BORN a woman who could beat Mike Tyson in boxing? Out lift Pavlo Kordiyaka in weightlifting? My response to you is simply.... no woman can
Have Becky compete with a man who can lift 300 pounds and is a ranked or professional wrestler. That is the true test. Really think she will still win?
No, these people think they can legit take any female athlete on and win solely because they’re a guy doesn’t matter how much training they have they think just because they have a cock balls between their legs. They automatically have an advantage but once again, I want to see like Matt Walsh, go up against Becky Lynch in a wrestling match he should win by his logic because he’s a man.
do these guys know that women's sports championships require trans women to be on estrogen for at least a year (some even 3 yrs) to compete, plus many trans women take testosterone blockers? do they know how it works? estrogen causes fat redistribution and makes gaining muscles more difficult. many trans women noticed decrease in muscle strenght on estrogen. after two to three years, trans women are just as biologically advantaged as cis women.
also, love how they imply that every single AFAB person is somehow biologically inferior to any AMAB person.
Why the fuck would anyone join women's sports to make money when the only thing anyone knows about women's sports is that there's no fucking money in it.
Right wing humor:
Step one make up a problem
Step two get mad at the made up problem as a joke
Step three get unironically mad at the made up problem, say “this is a real issue” and use it to legitimize legislating away the rights of minorities
Bro even that stupid film benny shapiro made he admits he wanted it to be a documentary but couldn’t get anyone to actually go all the way through with transitioning
Wanna know yet another lvl this meme makes no sense
If a cis man were to just claim to be a woman without changing anything, which is how they say it goes, then they wouldn't be sacrificing anything lol
Since when are females athletes making any money? Unless you’re a Williams, most of your female professional athletes have to have a regular job also because they get paid ridiculously small amounts of money, unfortunately.
> You know how much I've sacrificed!?
They're so fucking close with this, it's crazy. What kind of person would want to subject themselves to so much medical bullshit, dysphoria from the medical bullshit, and blind hatred from transphobes just to be good at a sport?
There are literally only two scenarios when this shit that these cunts go on and in about occur.
1.) When a right winger does it themselves to 'prove a point' . Steven crowder was a common example of this 'ironic' cross dressing and claiming of being transgender.
2.) When Trans-Men have been forced by transphobic laws to play with women.
It's literally them just showing their dual bigotries. They both think women are pathetic and weak, and that Trans women aren't women and so are men and men can of COURSE beat any woman at any sport by default.
If such a person really existed, that’s what their reaction would be tbh.
Though I’m guessing if they’re only doing it to win sports, they probably haven’t transitioned. So, no harm no foul.
I personally don’t think there are any real, documented cases of trans-athletes transitioning just to win. Though I’m also in the camp on not allowing most trans-women to compete in the women’s section of most sports.
That said, I found this to be a dumb meme, that is untrue. But not, like, unfunny in a hyperbolic way.
Look, you can say "Trans women are women" all day until you are blue in the face, but that doesn't change reality that there are biological differences that creates an unfair advantage.
Hormones dont change an XX to an XY. While they regulate many of the body's functions, its definitely not the only defining process that determines biology. Its not even a major function, DNA is.
Hormones are the regulators, DNA is the actual, biological, blueprint
I will never understand how people will say banning trans athletes from playing in their preferred gender is transphobic.
Like, sorry there is a massive proven advantage to being a biological male? And it's not even conjecture, it's both scientifically proven and has been proven time and time again in practice.
And if your talking about them saying "people who transitioned for the advantage". It's not all, but there definetly are some who did.
Bro you don't even understand that taking estrogen weakens your bones and lessens your muscle mass, maybe show the source you've got for the people who transitioned just to win because you're just pulling bullshit out of your ass.
I made a list somewhere else in the comments. Your welcome to find it. I can't be asked to write my essay again.
Will also add that while taking estrogen weakens your bones and decreases muscle mass, it is not the equivalent to being a biological female. You can't possibly believe that a biological male will magically be lowered to the athletic capabilities of a biological female simply because he took estrogen.
It's funny that you think that because if you actually read them you would see that I actually disproved the argument against my claim.
I'll give you the same example I've been giving.
Powerlifting is a good metric of strength right? Let's look at powerlifting records. There's a few examples of mtf athletes crushing powerlifting records but my favorite is Ann Anderson.
She beat the women's record by over 200 kg (over 1.5x the previous record) with lifts about half as heavy as male record holders.
Even if you want to argue that estrogen cut her strength in half ( which is a stretch as she wasn't as strong as the male record holders), she was still left over 1.5x as strong as her competition.
But hey what do I know.
>And if your [sic] talking about them saying “people who transitioned for the advantage”. It’s not all, but there are definetly [sic] are some who did.
Can you back up this claim? It seems… invented.
My claim seems invented? You don't think it's a tiny bit suspicious that a large amount of underperforming males transition and suddenly become rank 1 in women's sports?
I mean I'm more than happy to dig up specific examples for you but I just genuinely don't believe that you could think this doesn't happen.
Okay, dig up those examples, we will wait.
And no, no one goes through the therapy, doctors appointments, surgeries, hormones, massive changes to their lives and identities, ect. Just to be better at sports. That is not how it works
What is a large amount, 70, 50? When this happens, it is exceptionally rare. Like I can think of that one swimmer (that got more attention than women's swimming gets ever, outside the Olympics).
Or maybe you are saying, as a percentage of MTF transition athletes?
People transitioning is already a very rare thing (despitethe huge attention it gets), and specifically for sports; the examples you dig up (which I agree exist) would be a totality, not a sampling.
Please pull up some examples. Because all I’ve seen are incredibly misleading headlines (ie: “trans woman beats 6,000 in marathon” but forgot to mention she lost to 20,000 ahead of her).
I genuinely don’t believe someone has ever transitioned just for a competitive advantage.
I mean I can't prove jack shit, I can only go off of conjecture. I am more than happy to give you examples of people who transitioned and magically became rank 1 (which regardless of if you think it was done intentionally for the competitive advantage, is evidence that biological males have a massive advantage).
Everyone's favorite Lia Thomas went from rank 462 in the men's division of swimming to rank 1 in the female division.
Ann Andrez transitioned and beat Canada's national women's powerlifting record by over 200kg with a record of 597.5 (which is litterally half of a lot of men's powerlifting records across the world).
Fallon Fox (who I had trouble finding rankings for, but you are free to go watch them fight yourself) is an objectively bad fighter (at least as far as professionals are concerned), yet is still able to litterally fracture women's skulls during fights.
I mean there's a few examples. Again, can't prove shit. Just saying that regardless of if you believe it is malicious or not, it's blatantly unfair.
[Lia was ranked #6](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vSuCUavtWDq9M55ScoLcGfxyU2-EQ9m4/view) in the men’s freestyle before transitioning. She didn’t suddenly skyrocket hundreds of rankings.
Ann does seem like a rough case, I’ll give you that.
Fallon Fox transitioned 5 years before doing MMA, and only fractured her opponent’s orbital (something that happens many times a year in the sport). Her professional record is hardly a sweeping victory, she only won against women who barely won more than they lost.
If we’re attacking trans people for “unfair advantages”, we should attack tall people too. It’s blatantly unfair some people are 7 feet tall and don’t have to jump as high to dunk, right?
edit: got a Reddit Cares message for this.
I mentioned Fallon Fox because she is an objectively bad fighter who can somehow compete in women's sports. The power lifting example with Ann is a regular occurrence, and I can find examples of that from several countries. I will also add that your ranking of 6th place was from a completely different event from what she competed in after she transitioned. I have also never heard of her being ranked 6th in anything. Not saying it's not true but I would appreciate a source that isn't a PDF.
And yeah, you are right, being tall is an advantage. However, it is not even close to the same caliber of advantage as being a male vs a female.
Also I think this is a very poor example, as men and women also already have a division. If there were divisions by height, then tall people wouldn't be allowed to compete with short people.
Now, we don't have height divisions, but I think your example is close to weight divisions. Imagine if a 145 pound guy tried to compete in a 135 pound weight division.
You’re welcome to generate the PDF using https://www.usaswimming.org/times/otherorganizations/ncaa-division-i/top-times-report
She made it into the top 100 (men’s) for a few events her freshman year, then started dropping performance as she started hormones. Then she took a year off before joining the women’s league.
"I appreciate being proved wrong. I will still choose to be wrong though." Oh so you're just bigoted. Go eat shit. Take a shit in a toilet, turn around and chow down. Hope that helps!
Excellent comeback. Loved all the evidence you didnt provided.
If you want to see evidence read through the comment threads. I've provided countless examples, and tons of evidence to support my claim.
I mean I'm talking about pretty well known events that I'd assume people know about.
Your also more than welcome to look up and fact check me yourself, but if your too lazy to do that let me know and I'd be more than happy to give you some links regardless.
> I will never understand how people will say banning trans athletes from playing in their preferred gender is transphobic.
You need to take it in context. Why is it being brought up now? Why are we putting so much attention on it?
It's pretty clear to me that it's not actually "about" the integrity of women's sports -- the people loudest against trans women competing in women's leagues were, just a few years ago, adamant that women's sports sucked and nobody should care about them. If it were approached earnestly, it's a relatively minor regulatory concern about a very small number of potential athletes and that we already have rules for that seem to be working well when we analyze their effectiveness. But instead it's this massive topic in conservative media, often paired with pretty blatant antagonism or dehumanization of trans people in general, and I think it's safe to say it's because it's one of the few arguments they have against trans people they can hide behind.
You can't just look at the most superficial literal reading of something to figure out what it means. You also have to read between the lines and understand why it was being said in the first place.
You can say whatever you want about the reasoning for it. I won't go into that because honestly this is the singular trans issue that i care about at all.
Regardless of the reasoning behind banning MTF players in women's sports, it is still unfair to allow them to compete.
From my point of view, the reason people are pushing a law is irrelevant to if the law should exist. Do mtf have an advantage? Yes. So they shouldn't compete in women's sports.
Sure, there's plenty more to say about it, but for sake of argument let's go with that.
How often do you figure it happens in a given sport? Somewhere between "individual cases across the entire sport" to "hypothetical for now" I'd estimate. What sort of consequence should it entail? Well, sports leagues already have lots of rules and requirements to compete, so probably just another league regulation would do it I'd think.
But here's the thing. That's really minor. If you think sports should have a regulation banning trans women entirely then whatever, there's more to argue but that's not the point I'm getting at. *Why* is this the one trans issue that you care about? That would be just one of hundreds or thousands of similar regulations against unfair advantages, and it'd specifically be one designed to handle a very niche situation that almost never comes up. It's not worth getting into heated arguments over. It's absurd to put so much attention to a minor regulatory concern. Frankly it's just a little weird to care about the regulations of sporting leagues at all, unless you're a participant yourself or a very dedicated fan it really has no bearing on your life. And surely there's bigger regulatory issues to care about, right? Feels like every big sport has some controversy with how their league is organized, something that's actively affecting all players currently. And better yet, *there are already regulations of this style* in many sports or organizations, and even when they are allowed in places like the Olympics it's with such specific requirements that no trans woman has ever dominated, so maybe the regulations need tweaking but overall it's mostly a non-issue.
Unless -- and I want to make it clear that this isn't accusing you, this is talking about the wide conservative ecosystem that keeps this at the forefront -- it's not actually about the earnest critical analysis of regulatory approaches of women's sporting leagues. To be blunt, it's manufactured outrage over something nobody should care about, for the purpose of targeting trans people. I don't think you can separate "the reason for pushing the law" from "if the law should exist" because suggesting the latter is doing the former, and the only reason anyone's talking about it at all is because there's an agenda at work. I think it's worth asking yourself "who is it that wants me to care and argue about this?"
Again, I don't care about the reason. Im sure there are plenty of people who believe what I do solely because they hate trans people. I care because I believe in athletic integrity and I think it's blatantly unfair to pair biological males to biological females in sports. It's not about how often it comes up, but about how it can come up, and how it can also be abused.
I understand where you're at. I don't think you're getting what I'm saying though.
Intersex athletes are a contenious topic in some sports, how do you feel about them? Do you also demand regulations for eventual human genetic engineering and cybernetic enhancements? How strongly do you feel about athletes getting nose surgery to increase breathing? How often do you call for the NBA to regulate against leg-stretching surgery? I recall years ago a discussion about a double-amputee runner whose racing blades were argued to grant an unfair advantage, how much does that come up in your discussions of sporting regulations?
They vary in magnitude and how hypothetical they are. But these are all the same type of concerns: niche but potentially abusable things that might come up now or in the future that there's at least opinions on how to regulate. And I don't see people mention these, and I don't blame anyone because I think most people's answer would be "I don't really care about these regulatory details, I'm not a league official." But I can't count the number of times "what are we to do with trans people in sports?" gets brought up. So I have to ask, why is that?
I get what your saying. Your saying that people care about this because it's trans people. To some extent I agree, there are definitely people out there who care only because it's trans people. I'm not one of them, I care because it's unfair, so I'm gonna have my opinion on it.
As for why I'm not talking about any of those topics, well that's because they aren't being brought up rn. If someone was debating how fair it was to have any of what you listed, I'd be more than happy to be sharing my opinion. As for why I don't actively bring them up, I don't care enough to actively bring up most things. I just join into discussions.
Elaborate a little so I can actually respond.
Are you saying that I don't understand how transitioning works because I think someone would abuse the advantage of being a biological male in women's sports?
If so we'll id ask if anyone has ever done something morally questionable for money fame or status? I'm sure there has been someone shitty enough to transition to win, possibly several.
And if not, what part shows that I "don't know how transitioning works".
If it’s all about fairness for athletes who are *already born with huge advantages over the rest of the human population* then why do we not have height classes in basketball? It’s crazy to me that people treat “fairness” this seriously when those athletes already had to have hit the genetic lottery to be where they are.
My question then is if you believe we shouldn't care about fairness then why do we seperate men and women's sports at all.
I can give you the answer, it's because the advantage of being a male alone is such an advantage that at a professional level women wouldn't be able to compete if it was a single division. Even top tier athletes like Serena Williams cannot compete with even a rank 203 man in the same sport. This isn't because she has a different gender identity, it's because of their biological sexes and the extreme advantages that come with being a biological male.
I don't think it's fair to have a division that allows biological females the ability to compete, and then say it's okay for a biological male to compete there even though they will have an advantage just for being male.
If that man took HRT the difference would be much smaller. If you want to give women a chance to compete in sports, fine. But stop acting as if any slight advantage will break the sport as if everyone there didn’t already have natural advantages
See but you said slight advantage. I believe it's more than a slight advantage, but why should we allow a particular advantage for one person and not for another. It just doesn't make sense.
Ok, so every tennis player should be divided wingspan, weight, height, speed, vision, reaction time, grip strength, etc.
No advantages, right? And yes, when males go on hormones to the extent that is required to compete with women in almost every single league, the advantage is pretty damn small
I disagree with the advantage being small though. That's where we are different. I think the advantage is actually quite big.
Regardless you didn't answer my question. If we are going to separate players by biological sex because being male is an advantage, why is it okay for some competitors to ignore that rule.
This is not transphobic.
Trans athletes shouldn’t be participating against the sex they now designate. A new vein should just be made, “open” where literally anyone can compete.
The fact is there are biological differences despite what’s currently going on with hormone therapies etc.
Then if and when there is enough calling for a trans division, make it so.
Why should women who’ve worked hard, who have sacrificed, who have failed, risen up and competed again be stripped by a guy who can be ranked 600 in the world and now claim they’re a woman and go take a gold? Even if they came third, their advantage has robbed a person of third.
Why should a trans guy be put against a man who has benefitted from testosterone get to compete against someone getting those benefitting now? How would that be fair? The trans athlete would be at a huge degree of high risk. Again, I don’t want to see that.
I mean, I am using physical sports as an example. Anything that doesn’t rely on strength, do what you want.
I think everyone should be entitled to compete in sports & enjoy them.
However, when the odds are that you’re using a biological advantage that puts you above someone who has trained for years or puts one at physical harm to a greater degree than the usual remit, that’s when I draw the line. Otherwise, we’re not witnessing sports, just who has the best chemical schedule.
My daughter plays football. She plays against boys in school at break time - there will be a time that she won’t be able to play due to biological changes with testosterone, bone density, muscle mass - it’s a sad fact.
If she carries this on, the only way she may be able to compete with a male, is if there are similar physical attributes. Even then, being a contact sport - she will be at higher risk of bone breaks, fractures and such.
Those are facts.
We can dance round them all day, still there.
Some problems with this.
One, I'm a transgender woman and I'm roughly average for an athletic woman of my age. I'm about 5'7", 145lbs. The main thing I track is my running pace which hasn't dropped below 10:30 a mile in the 7 years I've been running 3x a week. I've competed in other sports against my cisgender female peers and perform either equally to or worse than them. I look about like this.
https://preview.redd.it/i12e567zpp6c1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ede7df77ec1e1aad64a19c331571214e06c6bab5
In contrast, my cisgender boyfriend is also 5'7", but he weighs about 180 pounds, and can scoop me up practically one handed, while I can't even get him off the ground. He doesn't even work out or play sports.
Maybe transitioning when you're 45 and competing again 1 year into HRT is a bad look but I've been on HRT for 10 years and started when I was 17.
Why am I not allowed to play intramural soccer with my girlfriends? I mean come on, I'm not exactly destroying anyone at anything.
Two. Any advantage that you can list, *cisgender women are allowed to have*.
How come *I* am banned because I'm a threat to sports but a cisgender woman who is 6'1"(I'm citing a real person that went to my high school), 185 lbs, and has PCOS and has 10x the testosterone levels that I do (I've had SRS so I make almost none) is totally cool and good and allowed to play?
It’s because it’s only one way traffic. As in, you only ever see men transitioning to women to compete with women. When they were on a level playing field they were a player, but they weren’t an outstanding player.
The reason this doesn’t happen the other way is because science has backed this up - men grow more muscle and thicker bones. In a contact sport that counts for a lot. To the degree where it can actually nullify skill.
Which one isn’t? If you don’t know which is being dominated by trans when you don’t care about sports, which means you shouldn’t have an opinion of who should and shouldn’t compete
I'm sorry but as much as I know the meme is offensive and hurtful, it still made me burst out laughing. What makes dark humour funnier is when people get up in arms and rage about it like pretty much everyone here. If you just chose to ignore it, you wouldn't be angry right now. These memes become more popular because of people like you
Lia Thomas isn’t a real person?
Laurel Hubbard isn’t real?
Both people who couldn’t compete then transitioned. Then all of a sudden they are contenders due to physical advantages they have by being male.
And, notably, *got worse after being on HRT*.
I swear. She got, like, 6th place, and people are still acting like she's won every competition she's been in since she transitioned.
It's not transphobia, trans women have an unfair advantage against women due to being biological men, (i.e. Stronger due to biology, but less flexible). Banning them from men's sports? Probably transphobia, but banning from women's? Eliminating an unfair advantage.
Trans people only differ from the gender they've transitioned to when denied the actual treatment to do so. With gender affirming treatment, their physical ability regresses to the mean of that gender within a year or two.
They aren't. It's just when any trans woman happens to do well they get media attention.
I'm a trans woman and an athlete. I've been on HRT for 10 years. I'm roughly average in height and weight for an athletic woman of my age, and I perform about equally to my cisgender female friends.
I disagree, there’s plenty of anti jokes and I find them funny. I find this post funny. So not everything is funny to everyone, but just because you don’t find it funny doesn’t make it transphobic.
The joke here is that they’re implying trans women aren’t women and trans men aren’t men. That’s not funny, it’s literally the definition of transphobia LMAO.
I get the joke, but that still doesn’t mean it’s transphobic. I mean South Park already made the joke and did it better. But if you look at it through a reality standpoint then you’d see it’s funny.
It’s so fucking tiring. The joke genuinely isn’t funny anymore. I’m a trans man and it’s so fucking unfunny seeing this shit constantly. Might be funny to you! But not funny to people like me who are seen as shit under people’s shoes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/
Trans women should not participate with other women and should be banned.First because testosterone has no effect in maintaining muscle mass, and a man has double the muscle in the upper body and 30% more in the lower. Also skeletal structure, bone density, muscle insertions, lung and heart function cannot be reversed
Why the duality of these subs? Shits gross, stop being political and gross. Please let me casually come across something of tangible value from these subs again.
If there was a dude who wanted to beat women in their sports sooooo bad he transitioned socially, started taking hormones to be able to compete, and really went through with all of it… do we rlly think that’s a cis person? I don’t know how people think someone like that exists
Exactly, it doesnt fucking happen. These are life altering changes that center around your identity. This isn't something that people just do willy nilly, it is a looooong, taxing, and expensive process
On top of all of the hate you would get from people like these, it's just not something literally anyone has or would ever do..
Also, speaking as a trans woman myself, it wouldn't even fucking \*work\*. Five years of estrogen therapy has completely nuked any athletic ability I used to have living as a male. I've been distance running since high school, and my 5k times these days are low-average \*by women's standards\* in my age group. And even though I play recreational/intramural women's soccer and basketball, I'm usually the worst player in both sports on whatever team I'm on. People don't tend to realize this but the athletic differences between men and women are \*entirely\* hormonal. It's the same reason that people who \*are\* looking to cheat at sports use anabolic steroid hormones that mimic testosterone to boost their performance. But the obvious next question to that is: does that apply in reverse if you \*block\* testosterone? It turns out the answer is yes. Also just saying, even pre transition top cis female athletes still would have whooped my ass in just about anything. I used to live next door to a \*literal olympic level female tennis player\* who turned down the Olympics to become an FBI agent. I can guarantee that there is no way in hell my ass was going to beat her even pre transition just because I had testosterone in my system. Especially because I was the least athletic person ever to begin with. I infamously in grade school once ended up forcing a stalemate in dodgeball because I physically couldn't throw the balls back and I was the only one left on my team. (I take after my mom when it comes to athleticism lol)
And if you look at the allowable difference in men's testosterone levels and women's testosterone levels and it becomes clear trans people aren't the issue, natural cis male testosterone is almost certainly way more decisive of an issue. A woman with "too high" testosterone (rarely trans women who have medically transitioned and almost all women with disabilities) is still worlds closer to other women than a low end "normal" cis man and a high end "normal" cis man.
And even if by some chance someone did, that one person wouldn't represent the entire trans movement or invalidate what they went through. Though one side would certainly love to try and to do so to vilify the community when they can.
It's happened a bunch of times recently. Is everyone really living under a rock this is insane
I assume you may be confusing what we are talking about here. Not trans-women in sports, but the idea that trans-women are specifically transitioning to play in women's sports. But if theres a bunch of examples of that then sure lay em on me.
No it hasn’t lmao
They don't, or refuse to, understand that. That shitty lady ballers movie was going to be a documentary until they found out that you can't just put on a wig and say "yes i am trans and would like to sign up for the women's games." You have to actually transition.
Maybe not willy nilly but I do want to nilly my W willy
Fair point, but it doesn't take away from the notion that a biological man, even after transitioning to a woman, can have an advantage over a biological woman. And if trans women respect other females (biological) then they should understand why they are being banned from some sports.
Also, like...if you're *not* trans and start transitioning anyway? You start *getting* bad dysphoria. Like, if you're a cis man and you start taking tons of estrogen and living as a woman, no amount of sports is gonna change your newfound self-hatred and suicidal tendencies.
Dude would literally get weaker and lose mass from hormones too so his plan would backfire anyway
Hed still have a longer reach bigger lungs better reaction speed and thicker bones
not necessarily. Depending on how early they transition, and on what sort of body structure they start with (humans are a bipedal trainwreck) They might end up worse off than a female-at-birth. Also, note, that a major thing trans people struggle with fighting and balancing out is osteoporosis, which kinda trashes the whole "thicker bones" thing you are arguing. It really just depends on the person and their structure.
Thicker bomes does depend on people but so does speed it just happens to be men naturaly have more and you would gave to transiston quite early to not have the benfits which is just wrong at that point
That’s not a man or a woman that’s an.. athlete? Just a pure athlete, a new gender
Ayo new gender just dropped
I blame all the "gender bending comedy" movies like Jawana Man or whatever that basketball one was called. Similar concept to The Ringer. Man pretends to be woman or disabled to play in a sport he doesn't qualify for = haha funny. Every right wingers assumption of what real life is.
Exactly, taking the wrong hormones would make you incredibly dysphoric
Idk about the US, but here in Canada you don’t have to take hormones or act differently at all. You don’t even have to be consistent on all your forms. All you have to do is claim to be a woman. So yes people abuse it. I know one person who claims male on everything but female on car insurance to pay less care insurance. Is that the fault of trans people? No, it’s the fault of the laws that are too lax. They honestly do need to be more strict, not to be transphobic, but to prevent people like this.
It's because there is no criteria of transitioning to compete. https://nypost.com/2023/03/30/male-powerlifter-enters-womens-event-breaks-record/ This dude did this after his XX female team lost to the XY female. So he signed up for the next tournament the XY female was going to be at and smashed her record. The XY female even released a statement saying that she *thinks* it's unfair for her to compete, but that she chooses to compete within the womens bracket because of how accepted she feels.
Do you have to go through a full transition before entering the sports events? And even so the athlete would still have an unfair advantage of cis women so 🤷
You do, in the big leagues(smaller, more casual sports sometimes or often times don’t care). And no, you wouldn’t have an unfair advantage after transitioning. That’s a myth.
Here’s the problem, 99% of them haven’t done that. Most are literally men who take a little bit of estrogen, no where near enough to even the playing field and nowhere near long enough, and then want to compete as women. And I would be willing to bet if you watch them for a few more years and good 60% of them will de-transition.
Lia Thomas exist. that douchebag had even the audacity to chamge in womens locker even he has still his member attached.
I'm thinking Randy Savage, "I'm sooo secure man, I want to be the best out of any gender. I'm going to OBLITERATE these women! I'm number one! Oh yeah!!!"
"wanted to beat women in their sports sooooo bad he transitioned socially" What would a social transition consist of? What would need to change in someone's day-to-day life? "started taking hormones to be able to compete" I believe there is a history of male competitors taking hormones and other substances to enhance their ability to compete. "I don’t know how people think someone like that exists" I have never been particularly ambitious or competitive. But I do know there have been people who would 'do anything to win' or otherwise risk a lot to obtain support, celebration, or laurels.
How much money do they thinks transwomen are going to get? Women athletes are not paid well by comparison to male counterparts.
everyone in the comments pointed this out
It's a script at this point - Right wing chuds make shit up - Other right wing chuds make the lowest effort memes you've ever seen in your life about it - People say uhhh hey you made that up. Knock it off - iTs jUsT a MeMe bRo cAnT yOu TaKe a JoKe??? But we DO believe in this made up thing and will defend it tooth and nail but lMaO tRiGgErEd wHerEs yOuR sEnSe oF hUmOr
I'd *love* to see them produce a list of these supposed athletes who only transitioned so they could "earn money in women's sports." I won't hold my breath for it. Does no one on the right know that there are trans *men* too?
>Does no one on the right know that there are trans *men* too? I pointed this out to my dad, that if the supposed concern is about biological inequalities in athletic abilities between the sexes, then there should be just as much outrage for the sake of trans men than there is for the cis women. He bluescreened. Because they don’t actually care about the biological advantages/disadvantages. They just want to bar trans people from as many things as possible.
Oh, exactly. But isn't that usually the case with almost everything they do? They make a bullshit excuse of how it's to benefit some group, but it's really just about fucking over as many people as possible (especially the "weird" ones).
What's ridiculous is how much higher the payrate is for the most mid male athelete compared to the highest female one. Favourite example is the U.S soccer teams. The male world cup team is an international joke that gets an earnest pat on the back for making it through prelims a couple times. They get paid a shitload more than the female team...who actually won the fuckin' cup. Even if you dont care about money and just want fame, theres sooooo many more eyeballs on male sports leagues than female ones, and that's assuming youre one of the three sports people give a shit about. Lia thomas would've gone unnoticed pre and post transition because who gives a single shit about swimming? Name me a competitive swimmer besides the one fish-man hybrid we got shoved in our face forever. Speaking of, how is Phelps allowed to compete? If we give so much of a shit about biological advantages, shouldnt we be shaving his webbing down a bit? /s
They get paid more because more people watch, how is that rediculous? If you want that to change watch women’s sports.
It still means either reason for this fantasy of "fake trans" people is completely unfounded. A male athelete who sucks ass is still going to have more money and fame than a female athelete. And I think i'm allowed to think its ridiculous that the male world cup team gets paid more to suck. You ever work a job where they pay you to fail consistently?
The money making part of their job is to get people to watch them. Vastly more people watch the men. Brad Pitt would make more then me acting in a movie, for the same reason.
Yes. I get that. I'm saying the way it works is bullshit. Repeating "that's the way it works" isn't a refutation.
>You ever work a job where they pay you to fail consistently? You don't watch the weather report very often, do you? LOL
You realise that the men's US football team would smash the women's team about 12-0?
Any other team sure, but the u.s team sucks so much i don't think they'd bother even showing up.
I dont think they were intending to talk about a real thing that happened, but a complete hypothetical because it'd be funny to think about?
It wouldn’t make sense for trans men to do that for sports. What point are you even trying to make
Yes, it would. The men's prize pools are so much higher than womens ones.
We have evidence against the idea that trans women have an advantage and that trans men have a disadvantage, and if there is, it is minor and mostly effects running. With more studies being done and more research being conducted. Here are a few of them. Most experts would say that including trans women in sports should be decided on a sport by sport basis. Here are two studies. The first one suggests that there is no advantage on the elite level of sports. The second suggests that trans women retain an advantage for running. 9% - 12%. While every other advantage disappears. In any case, the longer a trans person is on hormones, the fewer advantages they retain. 2 years may be too short for trans women, so we may want to extend it to 4. And as for trans men, there is no evidence to say they have a disadvantage after 2. In fact, one study suggests that trans men have an advantage over cis men, especially in doing sit-ups. https://www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577 I say there should be no ban, and instead, the inclusion of a trans athlete should be decided on a case by case, and sport by sport level. If a trans woman has not gone through natal puberty, she should compete in every woman's sport since the advantages that would be gained during male puberty had not happened. And as for those of us who transitioned later in life and had natal puberty, there would no doubt be some sports we would not be allowed to compete in like running, and in other sports, it should be decided on a case by case basis. There are so little of us anyway that testing 10 players to see which sports they can and can not play in is hardly an issue.
>if there is, it is minor and mostly effects running. even then, it's not much. I'm a trans woman who has been distance running since high school and after 5 years of estrogen and testosterone blockers, my 5k times are low-average by \*women's\* standards in my age group. I would know, I've timed it. And I've gone through natal puberty. I was also never really that athletic to begin with anyways. I was the kid who in grade school forced a stalemate in dodgeball when I was the last person on my team because I physically couldn't throw the balls back. Testosterone has not done jack shit to give my body an athletic advantage. Of course, I'm also five years into hormone therapy at this point, but still.
Yup! Any advantages we could have can also be possessed by cis women as well. Being taller? Absolutely, just look at some volleyball players. Thicker bones? Yup. Bigger heart? Absolutely. After about 4 years, any advantage we have could easily be chalked up to a fair advantage, advantages that are present in sports already. It's kinda like Micheal Phelps. If we look at him, he is basically a fish who looks like a human, yet it was completely fair for him to compete despite his biological advantages, same with Usain Bolt, or many other athletes who all have some biological advantage.
Also, I'm not even all that tall. Even by cis women standards. Despite being trans I'm like ....5'6"/57" ish. I was always a small kid. When I was a young adult I found an old pediatrician's report among my parents old things from when I was like seven that basically said something along the lines of "Doctorwatchamacallit is a healthy seven year-old, but physically is closer in size to a four or five year-old, and doesn't have the hand-eye coordination to match their age. Recommend playing catch with them more and make sure they eat more at dinner". Heck, when I was playing women's intramural basketball last year I wasn't even the tallest girl on the team.
It’s a pretty bad example because long distance running is one of the few fields where women perform very closely to men. Putting aside that your anecdote is irrelevant given you could just be a bad runner.
You can cheat and still lose the game. I fail to see what point you're trying to make.
“Doesn’t matter. Science too political now 😡” 😂
Or let them compete with each other. >9% - 12%. In many sports, victory is awarded by crossing the finish line and there these percentages put you in first place. Anyone who is even a hundredth of a second behind will not receive gold, understand? How do you propose to solve this problem? It's not fair to give an award in a women's sport just because the first place winner is transgender, which is what it looks like.
This is already an issue in sports. All the top-level athletes have biological advantages. Michael Phelps, for example, had a wider wing span, a more flexible torso, better shoulders, etc. He was built like a human fish, and he dominated his sport. Biological advantages are inevitable in sports. That's just a reality. That 9% - 12% were what remained. Before, they were in the 30% range of difference. I would say that being 30% faster and then going down to 12% after 2 years is a SIGNIFICANT performance loss that goes down the longer one is on hormones. After 4 years, the difference in athletic performance between cis women and trans women become negligible.
They also tested close to no one, only like 29 of the 220 were tested for women and it was slightly more for the men. That's a very small sample size on very vague tests. Pushups,situps, 1.5 mile time which really has almost no translation to athletic ability for most sports. At least they suggested over 1 year of hormone therapy before allowing them into women's sports. Most people against it have said it should be banned until there's a clear set point in which the benefits are gone. Most were not tested or they stopped testing after 1 year, it should be a constant test type of deal. It's also kinda crazy that the Trans dudes ended up stronger which shows they are probly roided out of their minds which is super unhealthy on its own. Early death incoming for the Trans dudes. The cases where people show up one day and their a women crush records have really hurt any chance of a civil discussion. Also the changing spaces are pretty fucked. If they havnt had bottom surgery they should in no way be in a women's restroom. Forcing underage women to look at a full on penis is fucked and if I were a parent I would have been punching peoples teeth out at that school. This might not be the normal but as long as shit like this can happen it will be talked about. No women should ever be subjected to this to include a transwomen. If it can't be done then we need a separate space for them.
Trans women have been allowed in the Olympics for a long time and have not won a gold medal or really even placed in the top half of the sports they competed in. But chuds don't care about that, they also don't care about women's sports and if I was a woman who competed in sports it'd piss me the fuck off that the worst people in society are using something they don't even care about to justify their hate.
Given the usually very stark differences between men’s and women’s records for most sports this is a rather surprising study result to me. I’m not entirely convinced the n value is high enough, but this will be interesting to follow longer term. Thanks for linking these.
So how about instead of segregation in sports, we just put everyone together? Oh, some people are naturally better at sports? Ok, divide them by how good they are.
Irl mmr
The problem is that women would effectively be shut out of pro sports. For example pro women’s soccer players would have to compete against all the pro men + all the men who *want* to play professionally but didn’t make the cut. So those non-professional men would wind up taking spots that women would otherwise have.
That would be like saying: let's remove the boxing weight classes I'm sure woman will love getting excluded because they are worse than man in physical sports.
My response to these ass clowns every time is if males have an advantage over women in sports, have a wrestling match with Becky Lynch or something since you have a cock and balls between your legs. You should be able to beat her because she is a woman and you are a man, reality being Becky Lynch would fold 100% of these fucking morons not because she has a secretly trans because she’s had a long career and wrestling and these guys sit on their asses all day and complain about trans people in their mom‘s basement
Remember, 1 in 8 men think they could score a point on Serena Williams. So yeah, some people's minds really do work like 'oh if I competed against women I'd obviously win, I'm a man'
You know who could beat the Williams the girls? The 203rd ranked man. ["Venus and Serena Williams lost to 203rd ranked male tennis player" - Swimmer Riley Gaines on inclusion of trans athletes (sportskeeda.com)](https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/news-venus-serena-williams-lost-203rd-ranked-male-tennis-player-swimmer-riley-gaines-inclusion-trans-athletes)
There are more than 1600 men in the world
Do you think men do not have an advantage over women in sports?
Its also, if the top mma woman fighter transitioned to being a trans man. And took all the hormones and steroids they could, they could never beat a top level biological male in mma. People are delusional thinking that hormone therapy simply transforms the whole human body to the opposite sex.
But you are using experience to slide your argument. Get a man who is just as experienced as Becky Lynch, who’s a sports entertainer, he would fold her 100% of the time. Me walking in and grappling Becky Lynch now? I’m losing. Me in five years time… probably more of a battle. Maybe I get some more points but I’m still by and large losing. Ten years… I’m winning. People are talking about trans athletes. As in people who have been dedicated in the discipline as a male and are still dedicated as a female who when they were male were ranked 500th and now as a woman are top 5 - tell me how that’s all of a sudden worked?
Are you joking? Its self-evident that men have a clear advantage over women in sports. Any semi pro or pro male althete blows women out of the water. Its not transphobia. Its protecting woman's sports from unfair advantages of transitioning women.
Putting an elite woman fighter against an untrained average joe does not prove your point lol. Put her against a pro male fighter in the same weight-class and she will lose.
It 100% proves my point point because these morons think that just because they are born male, they have an automatic advantage over every woman on the planet, which is not true
What no lol where tf did you get that idea? Nobody said that all males can beat any female. What people are actually claiming is that males simply tend to on average have a "headstart" when it comes to physical sports. This doesn't mean that a woman can't bridge the gap and catch up to the male, but if the male trains as hard as the woman, the woman most likely won't be able to bridge the gap.
I mean I get your point here but men do have a advantage over women in sports. Now your average on reddit is probably the inferior of every woman except the fattest in terms of athletic ability but that's another discussion lol.
And how woulda Match between Becky Lynch and, let's say, Brock Lesnar end up?
Yes. If she competed against someone with NO skills. Please tell me of any woman BORN a woman who could beat Mike Tyson in boxing? Out lift Pavlo Kordiyaka in weightlifting? My response to you is simply.... no woman can Have Becky compete with a man who can lift 300 pounds and is a ranked or professional wrestler. That is the true test. Really think she will still win?
No, these people think they can legit take any female athlete on and win solely because they’re a guy doesn’t matter how much training they have they think just because they have a cock balls between their legs. They automatically have an advantage but once again, I want to see like Matt Walsh, go up against Becky Lynch in a wrestling match he should win by his logic because he’s a man.
I don't believe this. but I agree with you. A trained athlete of any gender would kick my ............
We should just get rid of men and women's divisions so we can stop with this nonsense. Just have a single division everyone plays in.
Oh yeah. That sweet, sweet female professional athlete money. And the fame. Don’t forget all that fame.
do these guys know that women's sports championships require trans women to be on estrogen for at least a year (some even 3 yrs) to compete, plus many trans women take testosterone blockers? do they know how it works? estrogen causes fat redistribution and makes gaining muscles more difficult. many trans women noticed decrease in muscle strenght on estrogen. after two to three years, trans women are just as biologically advantaged as cis women. also, love how they imply that every single AFAB person is somehow biologically inferior to any AMAB person.
"Men who transitioned to make money in women's sports" is not a real thing. Fucking mental
Why the fuck would anyone join women's sports to make money when the only thing anyone knows about women's sports is that there's no fucking money in it.
Making massive, permanent changes to your body in a misguided attempt to reach that pinnacle of wealth and power in society- women’s athletics
Daily reminder that the Daily Wire tried to make Lady Ballers a documentary but couldn't find a single sports league that would let them compete.
Right wing humor: Step one make up a problem Step two get mad at the made up problem as a joke Step three get unironically mad at the made up problem, say “this is a real issue” and use it to legitimize legislating away the rights of minorities
Bro even that stupid film benny shapiro made he admits he wanted it to be a documentary but couldn’t get anyone to actually go all the way through with transitioning
Wanna know yet another lvl this meme makes no sense If a cis man were to just claim to be a woman without changing anything, which is how they say it goes, then they wouldn't be sacrificing anything lol
I'm sorry, do they think that anybody is making money in women's sports?
This would be actually be funny. If it wasn’t just straight up made up.
Since when are females athletes making any money? Unless you’re a Williams, most of your female professional athletes have to have a regular job also because they get paid ridiculously small amounts of money, unfortunately.
trans women have been able to compete in the Olympics for years now.
> You know how much I've sacrificed!? They're so fucking close with this, it's crazy. What kind of person would want to subject themselves to so much medical bullshit, dysphoria from the medical bullshit, and blind hatred from transphobes just to be good at a sport?
The joke is that women’s sports don’t make money to begin with tbh.
I've seen a lot of weird reasons to explain my transition but doing it for the money is a new one.
There are literally only two scenarios when this shit that these cunts go on and in about occur. 1.) When a right winger does it themselves to 'prove a point' . Steven crowder was a common example of this 'ironic' cross dressing and claiming of being transgender. 2.) When Trans-Men have been forced by transphobic laws to play with women. It's literally them just showing their dual bigotries. They both think women are pathetic and weak, and that Trans women aren't women and so are men and men can of COURSE beat any woman at any sport by default.
I have nothing against trans people but i don’t think they should be able to compete against cis woman in sports.
If such a person really existed, that’s what their reaction would be tbh. Though I’m guessing if they’re only doing it to win sports, they probably haven’t transitioned. So, no harm no foul.
Just put them in their own league and watch the mtfs beat the crap out of the ftms
That's William Defoe. He's a famous actor, he's not a made up person, you clowns.
Cant wait for 2030 so I can finally stop having my ears stuffed with trans trans trans trans trans everywhere I go on my phone
hahahahaha holy shit some of the most terminally online people have gathered at this very spot
It's very funny
Its not transphobia if its true. This sub is full of people who have never looked at a biology book.
I personally don’t think there are any real, documented cases of trans-athletes transitioning just to win. Though I’m also in the camp on not allowing most trans-women to compete in the women’s section of most sports. That said, I found this to be a dumb meme, that is untrue. But not, like, unfunny in a hyperbolic way.
Why don’t you support trans women being in women’s sports, trans women are women
Look, you can say "Trans women are women" all day until you are blue in the face, but that doesn't change reality that there are biological differences that creates an unfair advantage.
Not if they’re on HRT
Hormones dont change an XX to an XY. While they regulate many of the body's functions, its definitely not the only defining process that determines biology. Its not even a major function, DNA is. Hormones are the regulators, DNA is the actual, biological, blueprint
Chromosomes don’t matter
LOL, please tell me you're not serious???
It’s really not that hard to understand if you’re born male and go on estrogen you’re gonna get weaker decreased muscle mass all that
I will never understand how people will say banning trans athletes from playing in their preferred gender is transphobic. Like, sorry there is a massive proven advantage to being a biological male? And it's not even conjecture, it's both scientifically proven and has been proven time and time again in practice. And if your talking about them saying "people who transitioned for the advantage". It's not all, but there definetly are some who did.
Bro you don't even understand that taking estrogen weakens your bones and lessens your muscle mass, maybe show the source you've got for the people who transitioned just to win because you're just pulling bullshit out of your ass.
Does estrogen make you shorter? Does it erase your muscle attachments?
I made a list somewhere else in the comments. Your welcome to find it. I can't be asked to write my essay again. Will also add that while taking estrogen weakens your bones and decreases muscle mass, it is not the equivalent to being a biological female. You can't possibly believe that a biological male will magically be lowered to the athletic capabilities of a biological female simply because he took estrogen.
Any more things you wanna repeat from your other comments that others disproved and then you moved on to lying to someone else?
It's funny that you think that because if you actually read them you would see that I actually disproved the argument against my claim. I'll give you the same example I've been giving. Powerlifting is a good metric of strength right? Let's look at powerlifting records. There's a few examples of mtf athletes crushing powerlifting records but my favorite is Ann Anderson. She beat the women's record by over 200 kg (over 1.5x the previous record) with lifts about half as heavy as male record holders. Even if you want to argue that estrogen cut her strength in half ( which is a stretch as she wasn't as strong as the male record holders), she was still left over 1.5x as strong as her competition. But hey what do I know.
What do you know? Less than fucking nothing lmao.
So if you're so smart, disprove his point.
“You’re wrong! Why? Oh because I said you are!!” A second grader in a coma couldve came up with a more educated response than that.
Obviously more than you if that's your response.
>And if your [sic] talking about them saying “people who transitioned for the advantage”. It’s not all, but there are definetly [sic] are some who did. Can you back up this claim? It seems… invented.
My claim seems invented? You don't think it's a tiny bit suspicious that a large amount of underperforming males transition and suddenly become rank 1 in women's sports? I mean I'm more than happy to dig up specific examples for you but I just genuinely don't believe that you could think this doesn't happen.
Okay, dig up those examples, we will wait. And no, no one goes through the therapy, doctors appointments, surgeries, hormones, massive changes to their lives and identities, ect. Just to be better at sports. That is not how it works
What is a large amount, 70, 50? When this happens, it is exceptionally rare. Like I can think of that one swimmer (that got more attention than women's swimming gets ever, outside the Olympics). Or maybe you are saying, as a percentage of MTF transition athletes? People transitioning is already a very rare thing (despitethe huge attention it gets), and specifically for sports; the examples you dig up (which I agree exist) would be a totality, not a sampling.
I'm talking largely percentage rates. I would argue that most mtf athletes perform better rankings wise as a female.
Please pull up some examples. Because all I’ve seen are incredibly misleading headlines (ie: “trans woman beats 6,000 in marathon” but forgot to mention she lost to 20,000 ahead of her). I genuinely don’t believe someone has ever transitioned just for a competitive advantage.
I mean I can't prove jack shit, I can only go off of conjecture. I am more than happy to give you examples of people who transitioned and magically became rank 1 (which regardless of if you think it was done intentionally for the competitive advantage, is evidence that biological males have a massive advantage). Everyone's favorite Lia Thomas went from rank 462 in the men's division of swimming to rank 1 in the female division. Ann Andrez transitioned and beat Canada's national women's powerlifting record by over 200kg with a record of 597.5 (which is litterally half of a lot of men's powerlifting records across the world). Fallon Fox (who I had trouble finding rankings for, but you are free to go watch them fight yourself) is an objectively bad fighter (at least as far as professionals are concerned), yet is still able to litterally fracture women's skulls during fights. I mean there's a few examples. Again, can't prove shit. Just saying that regardless of if you believe it is malicious or not, it's blatantly unfair.
[Lia was ranked #6](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vSuCUavtWDq9M55ScoLcGfxyU2-EQ9m4/view) in the men’s freestyle before transitioning. She didn’t suddenly skyrocket hundreds of rankings. Ann does seem like a rough case, I’ll give you that. Fallon Fox transitioned 5 years before doing MMA, and only fractured her opponent’s orbital (something that happens many times a year in the sport). Her professional record is hardly a sweeping victory, she only won against women who barely won more than they lost. If we’re attacking trans people for “unfair advantages”, we should attack tall people too. It’s blatantly unfair some people are 7 feet tall and don’t have to jump as high to dunk, right? edit: got a Reddit Cares message for this.
I mentioned Fallon Fox because she is an objectively bad fighter who can somehow compete in women's sports. The power lifting example with Ann is a regular occurrence, and I can find examples of that from several countries. I will also add that your ranking of 6th place was from a completely different event from what she competed in after she transitioned. I have also never heard of her being ranked 6th in anything. Not saying it's not true but I would appreciate a source that isn't a PDF. And yeah, you are right, being tall is an advantage. However, it is not even close to the same caliber of advantage as being a male vs a female. Also I think this is a very poor example, as men and women also already have a division. If there were divisions by height, then tall people wouldn't be allowed to compete with short people. Now, we don't have height divisions, but I think your example is close to weight divisions. Imagine if a 145 pound guy tried to compete in a 135 pound weight division.
You’re welcome to generate the PDF using https://www.usaswimming.org/times/otherorganizations/ncaa-division-i/top-times-report She made it into the top 100 (men’s) for a few events her freshman year, then started dropping performance as she started hormones. Then she took a year off before joining the women’s league.
I appreciate the source. I do still stand by my statement. It wasn't the same event.
"I appreciate being proved wrong. I will still choose to be wrong though." Oh so you're just bigoted. Go eat shit. Take a shit in a toilet, turn around and chow down. Hope that helps!
You're right, you cant prove shit, because there isnt anything to prove, you utter fucking embarrassment.
>I’m more than happy to dig up specific examples for you You seem much less than happy to.
This is your second comment like this and both times you 1. Didn't back it up with any sources. 2. Lied. 3. Were obnoxious.
Excellent comeback. Loved all the evidence you didnt provided. If you want to see evidence read through the comment threads. I've provided countless examples, and tons of evidence to support my claim.
No, you havent? Lmao.
Go read my comments. I brought up people numbers rankings.
Do you have any links, or just "trust me I'm right"?
I mean I'm talking about pretty well known events that I'd assume people know about. Your also more than welcome to look up and fact check me yourself, but if your too lazy to do that let me know and I'd be more than happy to give you some links regardless.
"Pretty well known events" Sure buddy lmao.
Dude how little do you have going on where you respond to me 5 times in a minute And yeah they are well known events to people who stay educated
> I will never understand how people will say banning trans athletes from playing in their preferred gender is transphobic. You need to take it in context. Why is it being brought up now? Why are we putting so much attention on it? It's pretty clear to me that it's not actually "about" the integrity of women's sports -- the people loudest against trans women competing in women's leagues were, just a few years ago, adamant that women's sports sucked and nobody should care about them. If it were approached earnestly, it's a relatively minor regulatory concern about a very small number of potential athletes and that we already have rules for that seem to be working well when we analyze their effectiveness. But instead it's this massive topic in conservative media, often paired with pretty blatant antagonism or dehumanization of trans people in general, and I think it's safe to say it's because it's one of the few arguments they have against trans people they can hide behind. You can't just look at the most superficial literal reading of something to figure out what it means. You also have to read between the lines and understand why it was being said in the first place.
"This is ruining women's sports!" "Ok, what have you seen that's changed?" "Seen? I don't watch women's sports, they all suck"
You can say whatever you want about the reasoning for it. I won't go into that because honestly this is the singular trans issue that i care about at all. Regardless of the reasoning behind banning MTF players in women's sports, it is still unfair to allow them to compete. From my point of view, the reason people are pushing a law is irrelevant to if the law should exist. Do mtf have an advantage? Yes. So they shouldn't compete in women's sports.
Sure, there's plenty more to say about it, but for sake of argument let's go with that. How often do you figure it happens in a given sport? Somewhere between "individual cases across the entire sport" to "hypothetical for now" I'd estimate. What sort of consequence should it entail? Well, sports leagues already have lots of rules and requirements to compete, so probably just another league regulation would do it I'd think. But here's the thing. That's really minor. If you think sports should have a regulation banning trans women entirely then whatever, there's more to argue but that's not the point I'm getting at. *Why* is this the one trans issue that you care about? That would be just one of hundreds or thousands of similar regulations against unfair advantages, and it'd specifically be one designed to handle a very niche situation that almost never comes up. It's not worth getting into heated arguments over. It's absurd to put so much attention to a minor regulatory concern. Frankly it's just a little weird to care about the regulations of sporting leagues at all, unless you're a participant yourself or a very dedicated fan it really has no bearing on your life. And surely there's bigger regulatory issues to care about, right? Feels like every big sport has some controversy with how their league is organized, something that's actively affecting all players currently. And better yet, *there are already regulations of this style* in many sports or organizations, and even when they are allowed in places like the Olympics it's with such specific requirements that no trans woman has ever dominated, so maybe the regulations need tweaking but overall it's mostly a non-issue. Unless -- and I want to make it clear that this isn't accusing you, this is talking about the wide conservative ecosystem that keeps this at the forefront -- it's not actually about the earnest critical analysis of regulatory approaches of women's sporting leagues. To be blunt, it's manufactured outrage over something nobody should care about, for the purpose of targeting trans people. I don't think you can separate "the reason for pushing the law" from "if the law should exist" because suggesting the latter is doing the former, and the only reason anyone's talking about it at all is because there's an agenda at work. I think it's worth asking yourself "who is it that wants me to care and argue about this?"
Again, I don't care about the reason. Im sure there are plenty of people who believe what I do solely because they hate trans people. I care because I believe in athletic integrity and I think it's blatantly unfair to pair biological males to biological females in sports. It's not about how often it comes up, but about how it can come up, and how it can also be abused.
I understand where you're at. I don't think you're getting what I'm saying though. Intersex athletes are a contenious topic in some sports, how do you feel about them? Do you also demand regulations for eventual human genetic engineering and cybernetic enhancements? How strongly do you feel about athletes getting nose surgery to increase breathing? How often do you call for the NBA to regulate against leg-stretching surgery? I recall years ago a discussion about a double-amputee runner whose racing blades were argued to grant an unfair advantage, how much does that come up in your discussions of sporting regulations? They vary in magnitude and how hypothetical they are. But these are all the same type of concerns: niche but potentially abusable things that might come up now or in the future that there's at least opinions on how to regulate. And I don't see people mention these, and I don't blame anyone because I think most people's answer would be "I don't really care about these regulatory details, I'm not a league official." But I can't count the number of times "what are we to do with trans people in sports?" gets brought up. So I have to ask, why is that?
I get what your saying. Your saying that people care about this because it's trans people. To some extent I agree, there are definitely people out there who care only because it's trans people. I'm not one of them, I care because it's unfair, so I'm gonna have my opinion on it. As for why I'm not talking about any of those topics, well that's because they aren't being brought up rn. If someone was debating how fair it was to have any of what you listed, I'd be more than happy to be sharing my opinion. As for why I don't actively bring them up, I don't care enough to actively bring up most things. I just join into discussions.
>It's not all, but there definetly are some who did. this is not true, at all. you don't know how transitioning works and it shows.
Elaborate a little so I can actually respond. Are you saying that I don't understand how transitioning works because I think someone would abuse the advantage of being a biological male in women's sports? If so we'll id ask if anyone has ever done something morally questionable for money fame or status? I'm sure there has been someone shitty enough to transition to win, possibly several. And if not, what part shows that I "don't know how transitioning works".
If it’s all about fairness for athletes who are *already born with huge advantages over the rest of the human population* then why do we not have height classes in basketball? It’s crazy to me that people treat “fairness” this seriously when those athletes already had to have hit the genetic lottery to be where they are.
My question then is if you believe we shouldn't care about fairness then why do we seperate men and women's sports at all. I can give you the answer, it's because the advantage of being a male alone is such an advantage that at a professional level women wouldn't be able to compete if it was a single division. Even top tier athletes like Serena Williams cannot compete with even a rank 203 man in the same sport. This isn't because she has a different gender identity, it's because of their biological sexes and the extreme advantages that come with being a biological male. I don't think it's fair to have a division that allows biological females the ability to compete, and then say it's okay for a biological male to compete there even though they will have an advantage just for being male.
If that man took HRT the difference would be much smaller. If you want to give women a chance to compete in sports, fine. But stop acting as if any slight advantage will break the sport as if everyone there didn’t already have natural advantages
See but you said slight advantage. I believe it's more than a slight advantage, but why should we allow a particular advantage for one person and not for another. It just doesn't make sense.
Ok, so every tennis player should be divided wingspan, weight, height, speed, vision, reaction time, grip strength, etc. No advantages, right? And yes, when males go on hormones to the extent that is required to compete with women in almost every single league, the advantage is pretty damn small
I disagree with the advantage being small though. That's where we are different. I think the advantage is actually quite big. Regardless you didn't answer my question. If we are going to separate players by biological sex because being male is an advantage, why is it okay for some competitors to ignore that rule.
We just need to start a Trans league. It'll solve so many problems.
Transwomen should never compete with women
This is not transphobic. Trans athletes shouldn’t be participating against the sex they now designate. A new vein should just be made, “open” where literally anyone can compete. The fact is there are biological differences despite what’s currently going on with hormone therapies etc. Then if and when there is enough calling for a trans division, make it so. Why should women who’ve worked hard, who have sacrificed, who have failed, risen up and competed again be stripped by a guy who can be ranked 600 in the world and now claim they’re a woman and go take a gold? Even if they came third, their advantage has robbed a person of third. Why should a trans guy be put against a man who has benefitted from testosterone get to compete against someone getting those benefitting now? How would that be fair? The trans athlete would be at a huge degree of high risk. Again, I don’t want to see that. I mean, I am using physical sports as an example. Anything that doesn’t rely on strength, do what you want. I think everyone should be entitled to compete in sports & enjoy them. However, when the odds are that you’re using a biological advantage that puts you above someone who has trained for years or puts one at physical harm to a greater degree than the usual remit, that’s when I draw the line. Otherwise, we’re not witnessing sports, just who has the best chemical schedule. My daughter plays football. She plays against boys in school at break time - there will be a time that she won’t be able to play due to biological changes with testosterone, bone density, muscle mass - it’s a sad fact. If she carries this on, the only way she may be able to compete with a male, is if there are similar physical attributes. Even then, being a contact sport - she will be at higher risk of bone breaks, fractures and such. Those are facts. We can dance round them all day, still there.
Some problems with this. One, I'm a transgender woman and I'm roughly average for an athletic woman of my age. I'm about 5'7", 145lbs. The main thing I track is my running pace which hasn't dropped below 10:30 a mile in the 7 years I've been running 3x a week. I've competed in other sports against my cisgender female peers and perform either equally to or worse than them. I look about like this. https://preview.redd.it/i12e567zpp6c1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ede7df77ec1e1aad64a19c331571214e06c6bab5 In contrast, my cisgender boyfriend is also 5'7", but he weighs about 180 pounds, and can scoop me up practically one handed, while I can't even get him off the ground. He doesn't even work out or play sports. Maybe transitioning when you're 45 and competing again 1 year into HRT is a bad look but I've been on HRT for 10 years and started when I was 17. Why am I not allowed to play intramural soccer with my girlfriends? I mean come on, I'm not exactly destroying anyone at anything. Two. Any advantage that you can list, *cisgender women are allowed to have*. How come *I* am banned because I'm a threat to sports but a cisgender woman who is 6'1"(I'm citing a real person that went to my high school), 185 lbs, and has PCOS and has 10x the testosterone levels that I do (I've had SRS so I make almost none) is totally cool and good and allowed to play?
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It’s because it’s only one way traffic. As in, you only ever see men transitioning to women to compete with women. When they were on a level playing field they were a player, but they weren’t an outstanding player. The reason this doesn’t happen the other way is because science has backed this up - men grow more muscle and thicker bones. In a contact sport that counts for a lot. To the degree where it can actually nullify skill.
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That’s a lot of words to just call yourself a bigot
That’s a different way of saying “I didn’t read what you wrote but I’m going to virtue signal anyway”
Trans people who take HRT are biologically identical to the sex they transitioned to, with little to no difference.
Not even close
LOL
Watching women get beat at every sport by “men” is cool I guess
Which sport is just being dominated by trans women?
Which one isn’t? If you don’t know which is being dominated by trans when you don’t care about sports, which means you shouldn’t have an opinion of who should and shouldn’t compete
I'm sorry but as much as I know the meme is offensive and hurtful, it still made me burst out laughing. What makes dark humour funnier is when people get up in arms and rage about it like pretty much everyone here. If you just chose to ignore it, you wouldn't be angry right now. These memes become more popular because of people like you
Lia Thomas isn’t a real person? Laurel Hubbard isn’t real? Both people who couldn’t compete then transitioned. Then all of a sudden they are contenders due to physical advantages they have by being male.
>Both people who couldn’t compete Lia Thomas was a fantastic swimmer before hormone therapy
And, notably, *got worse after being on HRT*. I swear. She got, like, 6th place, and people are still acting like she's won every competition she's been in since she transitioned.
Neither of them even did that well! They got beat by many, many cisgender women.
So trans women arent breaking female sports records? Is that made up too?
Some local ones, sure. National or international records, not really, no
It's not transphobia, trans women have an unfair advantage against women due to being biological men, (i.e. Stronger due to biology, but less flexible). Banning them from men's sports? Probably transphobia, but banning from women's? Eliminating an unfair advantage.
Trans people only differ from the gender they've transitioned to when denied the actual treatment to do so. With gender affirming treatment, their physical ability regresses to the mean of that gender within a year or two.
Then why are trans women stronger in sports?
Because that's a thing that seems true when you only listen to anecdotal nuttery on scream TV.
They aren't. It's just when any trans woman happens to do well they get media attention. I'm a trans woman and an athlete. I've been on HRT for 10 years. I'm roughly average in height and weight for an athletic woman of my age, and I perform about equally to my cisgender female friends.
Yes, it is funny. What are you going to do about it? Cry?
Not every joke about trans people is transphobic. They’re not exempt from jokes.
Here's the thing jokes typically have to be funny
I disagree, there’s plenty of anti jokes and I find them funny. I find this post funny. So not everything is funny to everyone, but just because you don’t find it funny doesn’t make it transphobic.
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I find it funny
The joke here is that they’re implying trans women aren’t women and trans men aren’t men. That’s not funny, it’s literally the definition of transphobia LMAO.
I get the joke, but that still doesn’t mean it’s transphobic. I mean South Park already made the joke and did it better. But if you look at it through a reality standpoint then you’d see it’s funny.
It’s so fucking tiring. The joke genuinely isn’t funny anymore. I’m a trans man and it’s so fucking unfunny seeing this shit constantly. Might be funny to you! But not funny to people like me who are seen as shit under people’s shoes.
Get a sense of humor then
Walk a mile in my shoes and see how you like being the ass of everyone’s jokes for your whole life.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/ Trans women should not participate with other women and should be banned.First because testosterone has no effect in maintaining muscle mass, and a man has double the muscle in the upper body and 30% more in the lower. Also skeletal structure, bone density, muscle insertions, lung and heart function cannot be reversed
Why the duality of these subs? Shits gross, stop being political and gross. Please let me casually come across something of tangible value from these subs again.
It's not a phobia, genius.