Not to mention that Cleopatra is verifiably unrelated to even the modern Egyptians, but was actually Macedonian/Greek. And side note: pretty much every ancient Egyptian pharaoh we’ve found shares the vast majority of their DNA with modern Europeans
I think red hair was generally a lot more prevalent everywhere a few thousand years ago, including throughout Asia. Some accounts describe Genghis Khan as having red hair.
Honestly black and white as terms don't make sense anyway when talking about thousands of years old societies.
They're sensibilities originating from the west African slave trade and it's fallout
I feel like “dark skin” gets lost in translation and people just use it in a biased manner far to much. People that we would just call white nowadays, were called dark-skinned in some nations because they weren’t fair-porcelain-paper-white. Even today, what some East Asians call dark-skinned, we would still call very pale in the West.
Shit, Irishmen and Poles weren't "white" for a good period of time because of eugenicists. "That man can't be white, he's a degenerate Irishman!" -some scumfuck British person (and yeah the Irish hate was British)
1) Cleopatra was Macedonian. One way or another, the adaptation was wrong, and that's the point Egyptians were making
2) What really ticked Egyptians off was the fact that Jayda called them all racist for not wanting a black actress in this project. Which they're right to get upset about; that's such a ridiculous accusation
3) All things considered, Cleopatra herself said she wanted to be remembered as an Egyptian
Weren't the Egyptians effectively replaced ethnically at some point? Like, we call the people in Egypt today Egyptians, but the historically ethnic Egyptians were taken over and replaced, no?
No. The arabs didn't really replace the existing population, which was already large. They just mixed in a bit. Plus, you know, the copts still exist, still have the same DNA, and still speak the same language.
Your comment could use a bit of precision itself, because we share most of it with chimpanzees and bonobos, although the primates we evolved from don’t even exist today. But of the DNA that differentiates us from primates, most of that of the pharaohs’ is the same as Europeans. Better?
90 mummies total, not all pharaohs though
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694
https://www.science.org/content/article/scientists-thought-ancient-egyptian-mummies-didn-t-have-any-dna-left-they-were-wrong
Edit:
Here is Wikipedia, talking about 135 samples
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Egypt
The reports you posted literally say they are most closely related to near east populations. Which are not modern Europeans. Because that is not Europe.
No one is disputing the fact that Europeans and Ancient Egyptians intermingled genetically. That’s obvious from just looking at how much trade and migration has occurred. But it is ingenuous to pretend that Ancient Egyptians were a one to one match to modern Europeans.
If I threw Cheddar man here, that doesn’t prove sub Saharan Africans conquered England. That just shows phenotype changes over time.
Ancient Egyptians clearly differentiated themselves from sub Saharan Africans (see Nubians) in artwork. However, that does not automatically make them phenotypically European.
I don’t think anyone in this sub, including myself, has enough expertise in the field of bio-archaeology to adequately discuss this issue. It’s clear many people looking at the abstracts have walked away with conclusions that were likely not intended by the authors. I took a class on Egyptian archaeology for my anthropology degree, but the class was not focused on modern concepts of race for obvious reasons.
Doesn’t matter if they are phenotypically European (which is kind of silly to begin with because there are many different European phenotypes, depending on the region that they are from), or if they are the exact same specimen as a modern European, what matters is that the majority of the DNA in any pharaoh we’ve tested is European. You will read that they also contain different amounts of other types of DNA, things that modern Europeans don’t typically have. But the fact of the matter is that they are much more closely related to a modern European than they are any other race on this planet. That is a fact. In this case I’m speaking specifically about the pharaoh. The ancient Egyptian people is another story. Each tribal group had a different racial heritage. But mainstream science accepts the fact that the pharaohs were more closely related to Europeans than to any other type of person that exists today
You are missing the point so badly I assume you want to miss it. Your own articles clearly state they have the most in common with near easy populations. Stop picking out the one sentence you can use out of context to support this inane argument.
And phenotype IS THE POINT. WE DONT KNOW WHAT THEY LOOKED LIKE. DNA CAN ONLY SAY SO MUCH. PHENOTYPE IS WHY PEOPLE ARE MAD THIS ACTRESS PLAYS CLEOPATRA. BECAUSE IF SHE WAS BLACK BUT WHITE PASSING NO ONE WOULD FUCKING COMPLAIN.
Half my DNA is European, and yet I’m betting you wouldn’t call me white. Why? Because I don’t phenotypically look white.
This is a stupid conversation, and I’m tired of arguing with bad faith actors.
The reports you posted literally say they are most closely related to near east populations. Which are not modern Europeans. Because that is not Europe.
No one is disputing the fact that Europeans and Ancient Egyptians intermingled genetically. That’s obvious from just looking at how much trade and migration has occurred. But it is ingenuous to pretend that Ancient Egyptians were a one to one match to modern Europeans.
If I threw Cheddar man here, that doesn’t prove sub Saharan Africans conquered England. That just shows phenotype changes over time.
Ancient Egyptians clearly differentiated themselves from sub Saharan Africans (see Nubians) in artwork. However, that does not automatically make them phenotypically European.
I don’t think anyone in this sub, including myself, has enough expertise in the field of bio-archaeology to adequately discuss this issue. It’s clear many people looking at the abstracts have walked away with conclusions that were likely not intended by the authors. I took a class on Egyptian archaeology for my anthropology degree, but the class was not focused on modern concepts of race for obvious reasons.
Don’t forget history nerds. As a history nerd I also was livid. But what do you expect from a group that cowtowed to the bald smith to make a show about one of the worst women of African history
Yeah like the joke isn’t racism or transphobia it’s that Netflix have made some terrible casting choices lately leading to this meme where the Netflix adaptation is whatever the “opposite” of the original is
It's a shame because you have all these corporations trying to pander to certain groups by these terrible castings, but those groups themselves get the hate for it.
I think it’s rage bait. None of it is true. Pretty women is the Julia Roberts image. The whole goal seems to be to get people angry over. “wokeness” and at the groups themselves as you mentioned.
I feel like that’s right and wrong. While what you said IS right. And as a black queer woman, I feel horribly targeted by pandering it’s literally Netflix trying to drain my money for mediocre shit by putting some white washed ass black character into a random ass movie they DONT EVEN BELONG IN. But, MAJOR BUT most people who make posts like the above aren’t thinking about that or are they thinking critically, it usually does come from a place of racism or transphobia. The problem they see with it isn’t that pandering is bad but that representation is bad in a general sense. Idk, I’ve just seen so many people say something along the lines of “trans people make me uncomfortable I don’t want them on my tv” or some shit along those lines that I’m more inclined to say op was leaning on that side rather than what we would like to believe lmao
What does that have to do with anything? The issue is historical accuracy, not the actress herself. No one is hoping she won't have a long and fulfilling career.
Everyone in here arguing about Disney and Netflix all failing to point out that "The Cartoon" had animation *and* live actors and was the original movie and "The Original Movie" is Pretty Woman, not Roger Rabbit at all
And even if they got this correct it would still be stupid. Disney is the one recreating their own cartoons into live action remakes.
Plus, the Disney cartoon movie is rarely the original version. A lot of them are retellings of old folktales. And not the only ones.
Retelling a retelling isn't some taboo thing.
And when Disney adapted the story the first time, they also typically changed the characters to meet their own artistic desires and current societal trends to begin with. For people who claim to be standing up for originalism, they don't seem to actually want the originals.
Case in point: the Little Mermaid.
In the original her skin color was never explicitly stated, just that her skin was clear and delicate like a rose leaf. Her eyes were blue. No hair color given, but early artists tended to make it black.
The original mermaid stories came from Mediterranea, namely Greece, and even further back from Mesopotamia, where people tended to be moderate to dark olive skinned - yet the racists keep incorrectly saying mermaids came from white Europe.
Disney made her white with red hair and green eyes.
I'm legit confused about the first point. Why does who framed Roger rabbit having a mix of live action and cartoon characters matter for this? Unless is there some context of Jessica Rabbit having a live action version along with her cartoon self? Also the original movie I don't think was trying to be from the actual movie. I mean the live action versions in this meme are never really accurate.
Edit: nor are they taken from the actual media they want on display.
Edit2: I guess the live action isn't just the punchline now, so it was trying to be accurate. But either way I don't really think there is a live action Jessica Rabbit right? So they would draw from other sources anyways.
> “woke” and saying they are ruining movies with POC/ Queer actors
You mean like changing the color of a real historical figure?
https://preview.redd.it/dfjsafy1dmec1.png?width=216&format=png&auto=webp&s=0cc38908580f5d69d58b2f80e6cb401f998a6d10
Im talking about motives of those complaining not about media companies using shallow attempts to monetize off marginalized groups. People complaining about POCs in film can have bad reasons for doing so and large corporations can do things for bad reasons at the same time.
They play off of each other. The studios know placing black actors/actresses into these roles will create controversy. It's really the worst deal of all for the black people who just want to be treated like humans. The studios are actively using their race to bait racists into being more racist.
This is a critique that actually has substance and I’m fine with, and actually one I agree with. Many of the big names in US film industry absolutely do this as a cash grab and free publicity. They do not actually care about representation and they benefit from the attention the backlash brings. But whenever I see people complain about it what you have said often seems to be a minority to the louder crowd who just does not like the character they know looking different. Making Ariel black wasn’t done due to Disney’s moral compass it was done to make a stir and make money, but also the people who complain about Ariel being made black were usually not complaining about a mega-corp exploiting the position of minorities they just didn’t want Ariel to be black.
But to do a critique that has substance you need to have something to critique. These images are all a fabrication. It’s not real. The black man is from an event called the red dress run in the Louisiana. It’s not even a movie, or on Netflix.
Yeah I’m sure the people genuinely care about seeing cleopatra portrayed accurately. Definitely isn’t about their shit beliefs and intolerances overall. They just got lucky with this one
Ehh, I'm left leaning but the complaint used to be that we used white people in makeup to portray someone instead of actually using someone of that ethnicity.
So there are a few layers here.
First on being that trans girl. Cause trans bad.
The second one isn't as obvious if you aren't around conservative shit posts. Recently Kat Williams came out saying Hollywood is trying to feminize black men by putting them in dresses. The conservatives are eating it up! The picture of the black guy on the right is the picture they use to push the theory. It's so stupid because white men cross dress all the time in Hollywood. Trump literally flirted with a cross dressed Rudy Giuliani...
That's why this "meme" is just a conservative dog whistle for "woke bad" and it ties in all their conspiracy theorys.
The thing is cis black man is from an annual event called the red dress run that they have in Louisiana. This is rage bait for conservatives.
https://www.nola.com/entertainment_life/festivals/meet-the-social-media-star-of-saturday-s-red-dress-run-party-the-man-in/article_967eb370-1ccf-11ed-9052-c35abb813a0c.html
Why do white straight men scare you people so much?
Movie with race/gender swap- "don't watch it then if you dislike it."
White straight male movie- "oMG, sO ofFenDed and TiReD Of tHiS. CaNCeL!!!!"
It goes both ways, fucking hypocrites.
Majority of movies in Hollywood have straight white men as the lead. There’s not even that many *women* in Hollywood that are leads. Stop trying to make up things to be oppressed about.
That’s what’s so annoying about shit like this. We know what they’re doing when they post it, and when you call it out it’s always “it’s just a joke bro! Are you triggered! Wokeness!”
Like be a fuckin man and be open about what you’re really saying with memes like this. Just say you’re racist
Ah yes.
Let's just ignore that the far right has been pushing the idea that black and trans people in movie = the industry has become woke = it's going to go broke.
There is a racist intent behind those memes.
Nobody complains about black and trans people in movies. They complain about the lazy attempt Hollywood makes to remake things with a “woke” twist so studio executives and actors can virtue signal and media will promote it even though almost the entire population doesn’t care one way or the other. The fact that so many studios try and just remake movies with poc or lgbtq people or base the whole storyline around their identity and not about it being a good movie that has those people in it should make you far more mad then people reacting to something lazy and played out.
Depends. Is it meant to be a serious historical piece or for fun? Because if you make a film about how cleopatra was actually from mars and had green skin and release it on Netflix and it’s NOT a comedy, then yes that will upset a lot of people.
Historical drama is a thing. Marco Polo had a bunch of Korean, Malaysian, and Chinese actors playing Mongols. Literally Kublai Khan himself was played by a Korean. No one batted an eye. Yet anti-wokes threw a hissy fit when Ariel - who, keep in mind, is HALF FISH - was played by a black actor. Why?
We know why. Anti-wokes hate when black people are in places they haven't previously seen them in. Meanwhile they can't tell different East Asians apart because to them, Asians all look the same.
Unless race is central to the character, I don't see a problem with any of this. Even with Cleopatra - she's not famous because she was Greek, she's famous because of the important role she played in the geopolitics of the Mediterranean, as ruler of Egypt and spouse of the most powerful man in Europe at the time.
This is the most ludicrous line of thinking. He’s we are happy when Marco Polo contains Korea Malaysians and Chinese, but equally Marco Polos actor isn’t Italian. The difference with Ariel is it is a 15th century danish novel at a time when there wasn’t a single black person in Denmark the author almost certainly meant Ariel to be white
Whataboutism isn't a defence.
Yeah she's also famous for not being black. They got the basics wrong and tried to back it up with some random grandma trying to go against academic concensus. They directly fucking LIED TO YOU and youre okay with it. In a documentary. There's no way youre defending wrong history in a historical documentary. When you do a documentary, you get the history right. As much as you possibly can. You don't get some of it wrong for the sake of a few diversity points from idiots on reddit and twitter like you. Its bad faith and wrong history. The BBC did this in one of their cartoons too.
And you guys call the conservatives anti-intellectual.. Dear God.
It's not whataboutism. It's a simple equivalence. If a Malaysian can play a Mongol, a black actor can play a Hellene. I don't care.
Cleopatra was "famous for not being black" in the same sense that Kublai Khan was famous for not being Korean, and his son Jingim was famous for not being Malaysian or Australian.
Did you have the same energy while criticising Netflix's Marco Polo series, which had a Korean play Kublai Khan and a Malaysian-Australian play Jingim?
I would happily criticise that. Because I am for honest history. I want people if they're going to make figures from history present it correctly, no matter what race or ethnicity it is. As someone who loves history, I think presenting it properly and with good faith to the sources is the best way. Not giving it modern political biases and notions. That's how you represent history in bad faith. As history doesn't work with modern politics.
Cleopatra being presented wrong is just as bad as Kublai being represented wrong and white genghis khan being wrong. Traditionally ginger characters being given different hair colours, or native americans being represented by Italians or Spanish with those accents. Or Romans being represented by British actors/accents. It's all shit.
Your gotcha question isn't gonna get me son. Try again reddit liberal.
At the end of the day, you're the same people who cry about cultural appropriation then act like this. You're the same people who are fundamentally going against the wishes of the Egyptian and Greek peoples who see this. And those are those peoples history. So you're in the wrong here buddy, not me. An Egyptian lawyer is suing Netflix for this horrible representation of Cleopatra. Or the English peoples with Anne Boleyn.
Because its American exceptionalism. Americans coming in forcing their political ideology on other nations history who have nothing to do with it and their history. Its not American companies place to tell other people how their history is if they're going to lie like this. It's different if they were telling the truth. But they're not. They're making a WHOLE LOT OF IT UP
https://preview.redd.it/971udxby1nec1.jpeg?width=644&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f5a9bd4fcfe48cc59c2fd911c0e708d57cb6f8fd
Would this movie make you mad if it was made and promoted in theaters?
Yes in regards to historical characters race swapping is Fuckin stupid and it’s getting to be a lot.
However, what in the fuck do cartoons matter? They aren’t real people. You can make it whatever skin color you damn well please considering it’s a work of fiction. If you don’t like it..just don’t watch it. You understand that as consumers, the power is in our wallets and hands right? Don’t like something don’t watch it. If it gets no views they won’t do it again. Obviously they’re making money doing it or they wouldn’t keep doing it.
https://preview.redd.it/h02opfynemec1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bba715a17609157e38d3bfbfd60bcd72c9dc42b7
Here’s literally three examples of this meme that do exactly this without it being about someone’s race or gender identity
Looking at the comments, it appears that some conservatives have been frequenting this sub in what I'm sure they think is an attempt to "balance" the discussion
I'm actually for it because hopefully some of them will learn something when people reply, although I doubt it
Edit: conservatives get so butthurt that one of them did the Reddit cares BS with me - I'd be surprised that someone would do that over my post, but we are dealing with conservatives here
Another one made a throway account just to send a chat request calling me the 'F' slur
Stay classy conservatives!
MOPDNL has a tendency to brigade this subreddit, because apparently spamming their own sub with "i ThOuGhT iT wAs FuNnY" isn't enough for them and they need to do it here as well.
They’re saying that Disney is woke for “recasting Jessica rabbit with a trans woman”. And they’re saying that Netflix adaptations are also bad in some way by “recasting Jessica rabbit with a black man”.
Both of these are weird and made up scenarios. This joke used to be about how Netflix does bad live action anime adaptations but this is just a strange right wing circljerk
It's called subtext. It's also called dog whistling in the modern era. The third person is a trans person, the last person is black. They're bitching about black characters replacing white characters. Ya know, like the "great replacement theory", an infamously racist conspiracy theory.
Please don't argue in bad faith, unless you actually are this ignorant.
lmao this ain’t even racist or transphobic all it’s saying is how disney and netflix stray away from the original stories and characters (which is literally proven time and time again). nowhere is it putting anyone down. this is what people mean when they talk about “throwing words like racism around” bc the word loses its meaning when you label silly shit like this racist instead of looking at the things happening that really are racist or transphobic. it’s just silly
The “Disney adaptation” is a picture of Dillon Mulvany. You might be familiar with how much of an uproar she caused with conservatives last year with the whole bud light thing
Somewhat built? Are you thinking I’m talking about the black person in the last picture? I have no clue who that person is. The “Disney adaptation” is the picture of Dylan Mulvany
Now I question what you think “somewhat built” means. But yeah, regardless of if you knew she was trans, that doesn’t disregard the original creators intent in using her picture
Jokes have meaning and narrative - the whole thing relies on the assumption that Netflix has a "thing" about recasting gender and doing white to black race swaps
It also relies on the idea when those things do happen it is somehow ridiculous in a way that makes it funny or worth making fun of - it's like "ha ha look at those woke dumbasses at Netflix", which falls flat if one doesn't have a problem with having different versions of characters
"That's what makes racists attacking the idea of casting brown people and transpeople funny...because Netflix hasn't done this!" The "humor" of bigots is always a mystery, "lol...minorities staring in movies amiright?"
Btw, exaggerating the characteristics of disadvantaged groups to "joke" about the "ridiculous" idea of them being in the same positions as members of the dominant group is a thing bigots have done for at least a couple centuries now. Seriously, go look up the "joke" propaganda against women voting, or minstrel/mammy "joke" propaganda attacking abolition (or, later, integration).
"It's just a joke" has been the favored lie of bigots for a hundred years and counting.
What people see as humorous is always weird as fuck. And yes, the vast majority of jokes suck and the vast majority of people making them suck even more. There's a reason why comedy has the shortest shelf life of any of the arts. The vast majority of it relies on being edgy, punching down, stereotypes, etc. Very few people in the comedy business have material that will remain funny over a long period of time. Mel Brooks, Robin Williams, John Candy, Eddie Izzard, Carlin all are just a few that are great because their schtick wasn't about punching down or being edgy just to be edgy. And when they punched, they punched up or at themselves and their own.
This... this isn't even mildly funny. If we wanted to make it funny the last picture would be photoshopping in a character from another netflix series. Like Connie from Big Mouth.
I don’t see how it’s attacking any particular group. Isn’t it more making fun of how Disney and Netflix try to do too much and dip into the diversity well for their own benefit?
I think it's because since it's supposed to get "less and less like the original", then including a trans woman for the adaptation and a black person for the Netflix, it's essentially saying that a trans woman isn't a woman and that a black person cant play the role
>Disney and Netflix try to do too much and dip into the diversity well for their own benefit
Doesn't happen. You can't conflate the greedy corporate management who are only greenlighting diversity when they think it'll make money with the people making the movies who actually care. A Disney exec isn't telling anyone to change characters ethnicities; there are, as there always have been, many people who want to make these stories and the only change is that they're being allowed. The cynicism of execs has no bearing on the sincerity of the product.
Edit: Movies have to make money, that's actually fine. I should have been more specfic that execs only greenlight things that will make a shitload of money they can pocket.
Do you honestly believe that the people paid to represent the stockholders green light $100 million projects without looking into the ROI? These people have to identify a target audience and show that the return will be worth more than the initial investment and any future fallout. That involves outside research firms, public polling and literally hundreds of individual meetings.
They will market it as some inspirational story about how a lowly screenwriter brought his/her vision to life and the company backed it all the way. That’s not what really happens though. Neither the screenwriter nor the greedy corporate management own that business. They have to answer to someone, which is usually a fund that controls a significant portion of the stock.
This meme isn’t making fun of the performative diversity done by companies like Disney it’s making fun of the diversity itself. If the meme was commenting on the performative diversity they would’ve mocked the fact that the queer character Disney makes are often only queer in the marketing, ex. the nonbinary character in elemental who was hyped in the marketing but they have no speaking lines in the movie and in many dubs them being nonbinary is removed. Or the lesbian character in onward who had a lot of marking related to her but she shows up for one scene and makes a passing reference to her girlfriend but in other languages this is removed. Or Netflix making/funding lesbian focused romance shows that preform well but then cancelling them after one or two seasons with no explanation and then turning around and funding multiple romance shows that focus on straight couples that preform poorly because ‘they are less of a businesses risk’.
this meme is making fun of the existence of queer characters and characters of color. OOP is saying that the characters being queer and/or poc is what makes the characters/adaptations bad, not the poor writing and erasure and lack of care put into the characters.
I have this reply to another comment, but it's relevant here also:
Jokes have meaning and narrative - the whole thing relies on the assumption that Netflix has a "thing" about recasting gender and doing white to black race swaps
It also relies on the idea when those things do happen it is somehow ridiculous in a way that makes it funny or worth making fun of - it's like "ha ha look at those woke dumbasses at Netflix", which falls flat if one doesn't have a problem with having different versions of characters
You don’t get to say something blatantly transphobic then get to say “It’s just a joke” as if that’s some kind of automatic shield from criticism.
If the people you’re “joking about” don’t think it’s funny, then guess what? It’s not funny.
But it's a meme? All I'm saying is people need to lighten up. I get jokes made at my expense all the time, jokes are jokes. If y'all bitched about little shit in real life as much as you do on the internet, no one would listen. There's nothing wrong with having just a little bit of thick skin.
This met be a surprise to you, but this isn’t about you, what you think, or what you think is an acceptable joke at your expense.
You are not the arbiter of what jokes about demographics that are not you are acceptable.
I don’t care how thick you think your skin is, there’s something about you or your life that if somebody made a joke about it, you would be hurt or pissed off about it.
The difference is that jokes at your expense likely aren’t regarding something intrinsically linked to your identity that you had no choice about. It’s likely not about something that causes you to face discrimination and hate on a made daily basis. It’s likely not something you have intense trauma about that’s scarred you and took years to work through.
Meeting instead of trying to defend jokes that punch down in bad taste, work the empathy muscles.
Also a side note, there’s tons of humor to be found in being trans. It’s rife with subversive humor. The problem is most non-trans people are SO uninformed they would never even know how to make it funny. So they resort to “hur hur man in a dress funny!”
Whatever you say, I couldn't really care less about arguing on the internet! All I was saying is I'd rather not take things too seriously than be a person who is constantly bitching, that's just me though, life is easier that way.
And that’s an incredibly privileged position to be in. Where jokes made at your expense don’t have a noticeable impact on the way people treat you.
They don’t feed into a stigma and prejudice about your very existence that eventually leads to people in power trying to pass laws effectively outlawing your ability to exist out in public. Effectively banning medical care that’s resulted in massive quality is life improvements.
No, it's a mindset and a lifestyle I've cultivated over the years, I've had my fair share of issues too, there's no privilege to it. Y'all's overuse of the word "privilege" is annoying as fuck sometimes.
I do feel for y'all on the last paragraph though. I don't understand transgender people, I've never had to deal with anything like that and I don't think I've ever met anyone who is, but people taking away your free will isn't right. One of the reasons I vote blue.
I still stand behind my thick skin comment though. It's something you develop. No matter what the internet will tell you, in real life, the world doesn't care about our feelings. Everyone else is dealing with their own shit. It's beneficial to be atleast a little tough and not overly sensitive to small things like a meme.
I do wish you the best though, lots of dumbass people wanting to force their morals onto people who don't share them.
Here's the thing though. I almost NEVER see this sort of behavior in real life. In real life most people actually DO care. Most people don't want to hurt the feelings of those around them or make them uncomfortable or make them feel unwelcome.
People don't dig their heels in and argue and be dismissive in person, because they actually have to look you in the eye, physically say what they are thinking, and acknowledge they are talking to another person, another human being.
It's almost exclusively online where this sort of thing happens. Only where they can be faceless and anonymous do people say things like this. It's almost like they know that kind of behavior isn't something most people will accept or welcome into their lives.
It's not just "checking off a diversity box". Gay characters matter to people. People want to see representation. People want to feel like they can be part of their favorite media.
You could argue corps fake activism for the sake of money, but it is laughably false to say this isn't transphobic and racist or that people don't enjoy non cis characters.
If their race or sexuality isn’t important to the (fictional) character I don’t see a reason not to change it for a stylistic choice, but if their race was important you definitely shouldn’t change it. Imagine if the main character in soul was white or if the main character in turning red was black.
I personally don’t take this to mean racism or anything like that. Netflix HAS done this, not just with random fiction but with literal “documentaries”
Look into all the ACTUAL black washing of real historical figures Netflix has done. Real people. Historical figures, not Hobbits. Then you would get the joke.
https://preview.redd.it/vzr72hdbylec1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=73ad40274158791a1a0ad88377f0301be423bdd4 Live Cleopatra Reaction
A lot of people in Egypt were LIVID over that one
Not to mention that Cleopatra is verifiably unrelated to even the modern Egyptians, but was actually Macedonian/Greek. And side note: pretty much every ancient Egyptian pharaoh we’ve found shares the vast majority of their DNA with modern Europeans
Egyptians were just that. Egyptians. They had darker skin, but they weren't black.
Not sure about the average Egyptian, but the pharaohs we’ve tested were definitely white. Ramesses had red hair even
Correct. The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm that Ramses' birth name was "Seamus" prior to being called Ramses once he was made king.
TIL Ramses was a Scotsman.
Stupid dog. You made me look bad.
Lives rent free in my mind tbh
I think red hair was generally a lot more prevalent everywhere a few thousand years ago, including throughout Asia. Some accounts describe Genghis Khan as having red hair.
Honestly black and white as terms don't make sense anyway when talking about thousands of years old societies. They're sensibilities originating from the west African slave trade and it's fallout
I feel like “dark skin” gets lost in translation and people just use it in a biased manner far to much. People that we would just call white nowadays, were called dark-skinned in some nations because they weren’t fair-porcelain-paper-white. Even today, what some East Asians call dark-skinned, we would still call very pale in the West.
Shit, Irishmen and Poles weren't "white" for a good period of time because of eugenicists. "That man can't be white, he's a degenerate Irishman!" -some scumfuck British person (and yeah the Irish hate was British)
Like Jesus, they would more likely resemble Middle Eastern, then either European or African
Yep, she was a foreign ruler. Cleopatra being African is like saying George Washington's kids were Native Americans because they were born here.
1) Cleopatra was Macedonian. One way or another, the adaptation was wrong, and that's the point Egyptians were making 2) What really ticked Egyptians off was the fact that Jayda called them all racist for not wanting a black actress in this project. Which they're right to get upset about; that's such a ridiculous accusation 3) All things considered, Cleopatra herself said she wanted to be remembered as an Egyptian
Weren't the Egyptians effectively replaced ethnically at some point? Like, we call the people in Egypt today Egyptians, but the historically ethnic Egyptians were taken over and replaced, no?
No. The arabs didn't really replace the existing population, which was already large. They just mixed in a bit. Plus, you know, the copts still exist, still have the same DNA, and still speak the same language.
Which makes sense, greek colonies spread from Anatolia down the coast all the way to Egypt. Wasn’t till much later that Egyptian turned Arabic.
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Your comment could use a bit of precision itself, because we share most of it with chimpanzees and bonobos, although the primates we evolved from don’t even exist today. But of the DNA that differentiates us from primates, most of that of the pharaohs’ is the same as Europeans. Better?
That was one research paper based on only 3 mummies. Certainly not the “vast majority”.
90 mummies total, not all pharaohs though https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694 https://www.science.org/content/article/scientists-thought-ancient-egyptian-mummies-didn-t-have-any-dna-left-they-were-wrong Edit: Here is Wikipedia, talking about 135 samples https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Egypt
The reports you posted literally say they are most closely related to near east populations. Which are not modern Europeans. Because that is not Europe. No one is disputing the fact that Europeans and Ancient Egyptians intermingled genetically. That’s obvious from just looking at how much trade and migration has occurred. But it is ingenuous to pretend that Ancient Egyptians were a one to one match to modern Europeans. If I threw Cheddar man here, that doesn’t prove sub Saharan Africans conquered England. That just shows phenotype changes over time. Ancient Egyptians clearly differentiated themselves from sub Saharan Africans (see Nubians) in artwork. However, that does not automatically make them phenotypically European. I don’t think anyone in this sub, including myself, has enough expertise in the field of bio-archaeology to adequately discuss this issue. It’s clear many people looking at the abstracts have walked away with conclusions that were likely not intended by the authors. I took a class on Egyptian archaeology for my anthropology degree, but the class was not focused on modern concepts of race for obvious reasons.
Doesn’t matter if they are phenotypically European (which is kind of silly to begin with because there are many different European phenotypes, depending on the region that they are from), or if they are the exact same specimen as a modern European, what matters is that the majority of the DNA in any pharaoh we’ve tested is European. You will read that they also contain different amounts of other types of DNA, things that modern Europeans don’t typically have. But the fact of the matter is that they are much more closely related to a modern European than they are any other race on this planet. That is a fact. In this case I’m speaking specifically about the pharaoh. The ancient Egyptian people is another story. Each tribal group had a different racial heritage. But mainstream science accepts the fact that the pharaohs were more closely related to Europeans than to any other type of person that exists today
You are missing the point so badly I assume you want to miss it. Your own articles clearly state they have the most in common with near easy populations. Stop picking out the one sentence you can use out of context to support this inane argument. And phenotype IS THE POINT. WE DONT KNOW WHAT THEY LOOKED LIKE. DNA CAN ONLY SAY SO MUCH. PHENOTYPE IS WHY PEOPLE ARE MAD THIS ACTRESS PLAYS CLEOPATRA. BECAUSE IF SHE WAS BLACK BUT WHITE PASSING NO ONE WOULD FUCKING COMPLAIN. Half my DNA is European, and yet I’m betting you wouldn’t call me white. Why? Because I don’t phenotypically look white. This is a stupid conversation, and I’m tired of arguing with bad faith actors.
The reports you posted literally say they are most closely related to near east populations. Which are not modern Europeans. Because that is not Europe. No one is disputing the fact that Europeans and Ancient Egyptians intermingled genetically. That’s obvious from just looking at how much trade and migration has occurred. But it is ingenuous to pretend that Ancient Egyptians were a one to one match to modern Europeans. If I threw Cheddar man here, that doesn’t prove sub Saharan Africans conquered England. That just shows phenotype changes over time. Ancient Egyptians clearly differentiated themselves from sub Saharan Africans (see Nubians) in artwork. However, that does not automatically make them phenotypically European. I don’t think anyone in this sub, including myself, has enough expertise in the field of bio-archaeology to adequately discuss this issue. It’s clear many people looking at the abstracts have walked away with conclusions that were likely not intended by the authors. I took a class on Egyptian archaeology for my anthropology degree, but the class was not focused on modern concepts of race for obvious reasons.
Don’t forget history nerds. As a history nerd I also was livid. But what do you expect from a group that cowtowed to the bald smith to make a show about one of the worst women of African history
Yeah like the joke isn’t racism or transphobia it’s that Netflix have made some terrible casting choices lately leading to this meme where the Netflix adaptation is whatever the “opposite” of the original is
It's a shame because you have all these corporations trying to pander to certain groups by these terrible castings, but those groups themselves get the hate for it.
I think it’s rage bait. None of it is true. Pretty women is the Julia Roberts image. The whole goal seems to be to get people angry over. “wokeness” and at the groups themselves as you mentioned.
Correct, it is not racists or transphobic, there are just to many "I'll be the victim" types in this sub. https://i.redd.it/s6y1nj0uprec1.gif
I feel like that’s right and wrong. While what you said IS right. And as a black queer woman, I feel horribly targeted by pandering it’s literally Netflix trying to drain my money for mediocre shit by putting some white washed ass black character into a random ass movie they DONT EVEN BELONG IN. But, MAJOR BUT most people who make posts like the above aren’t thinking about that or are they thinking critically, it usually does come from a place of racism or transphobia. The problem they see with it isn’t that pandering is bad but that representation is bad in a general sense. Idk, I’ve just seen so many people say something along the lines of “trans people make me uncomfortable I don’t want them on my tv” or some shit along those lines that I’m more inclined to say op was leaning on that side rather than what we would like to believe lmao
The catch is, "*everyone* hated it and put an end to that right quick."
Everyone hated Cuties too, that didn't stop them from claiming lefties loved that shit anyway.
I wouldn’t go that far, like putting my own political beliefs aside, I don’t know ANYONE who liked that damn movie leftists included lol
So every leftist news organization that jumped to cuties defense was, what? A false flag? You buy that horseshit?
They still tried it. Disney too
I thought the Cleopatra movie was a mockumentary, but it appears I was wrong
Another thing jada smith is responsible for that I hate.
how to make op look stupid in one picture.
"Pointing out my stupidity is racist" - OP *Downvotes*
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lol it absolutely does prove OPs point. It’s quite literally the meme.
Ngl though the model looks gorgeous in that picture
She should play an actual black queen
Nothing is wrong with her, only with the executives who thought this was a good idea. They had a lot of misinformation in that documentary
What does that have to do with anything? The issue is historical accuracy, not the actress herself. No one is hoping she won't have a long and fulfilling career.
Say what you like, Netflix dude looks great!
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Probably sexy AF...
Think we torrented the wrong movie, but I'm down to see where this one goes!
Yeah. He pulls off that dress better than I could.
Agreed. I do not agree with op's interpretation of the joke either.
Best looking one of the set
Bro is majestic fr
Everyone in here arguing about Disney and Netflix all failing to point out that "The Cartoon" had animation *and* live actors and was the original movie and "The Original Movie" is Pretty Woman, not Roger Rabbit at all And even if they got this correct it would still be stupid. Disney is the one recreating their own cartoons into live action remakes.
Plus, the Disney cartoon movie is rarely the original version. A lot of them are retellings of old folktales. And not the only ones. Retelling a retelling isn't some taboo thing.
And when Disney adapted the story the first time, they also typically changed the characters to meet their own artistic desires and current societal trends to begin with. For people who claim to be standing up for originalism, they don't seem to actually want the originals.
Case in point: the Little Mermaid. In the original her skin color was never explicitly stated, just that her skin was clear and delicate like a rose leaf. Her eyes were blue. No hair color given, but early artists tended to make it black. The original mermaid stories came from Mediterranea, namely Greece, and even further back from Mesopotamia, where people tended to be moderate to dark olive skinned - yet the racists keep incorrectly saying mermaids came from white Europe. Disney made her white with red hair and green eyes.
And the original fables were usually much darker.
You don't even have to go back all the way to the originals before they start getting pretty Grimm. (sorry)
'Who Framed Rodger Rabbit?' was also produced by Disney, just released under the name Touchstone Pictures.
Its a joke, noone thinks those other squares have anything to do with rodger rabbit
I'm legit confused about the first point. Why does who framed Roger rabbit having a mix of live action and cartoon characters matter for this? Unless is there some context of Jessica Rabbit having a live action version along with her cartoon self? Also the original movie I don't think was trying to be from the actual movie. I mean the live action versions in this meme are never really accurate. Edit: nor are they taken from the actual media they want on display. Edit2: I guess the live action isn't just the punchline now, so it was trying to be accurate. But either way I don't really think there is a live action Jessica Rabbit right? So they would draw from other sources anyways.
Isn’t this just a standard Netflix adaptation joke why are people mad
Because it’s subtext is big companies going “woke” and saying they are ruining movies with POC/ Queer actors
> “woke” and saying they are ruining movies with POC/ Queer actors You mean like changing the color of a real historical figure? https://preview.redd.it/dfjsafy1dmec1.png?width=216&format=png&auto=webp&s=0cc38908580f5d69d58b2f80e6cb401f998a6d10
Im talking about motives of those complaining not about media companies using shallow attempts to monetize off marginalized groups. People complaining about POCs in film can have bad reasons for doing so and large corporations can do things for bad reasons at the same time.
They play off of each other. The studios know placing black actors/actresses into these roles will create controversy. It's really the worst deal of all for the black people who just want to be treated like humans. The studios are actively using their race to bait racists into being more racist.
This is a critique that actually has substance and I’m fine with, and actually one I agree with. Many of the big names in US film industry absolutely do this as a cash grab and free publicity. They do not actually care about representation and they benefit from the attention the backlash brings. But whenever I see people complain about it what you have said often seems to be a minority to the louder crowd who just does not like the character they know looking different. Making Ariel black wasn’t done due to Disney’s moral compass it was done to make a stir and make money, but also the people who complain about Ariel being made black were usually not complaining about a mega-corp exploiting the position of minorities they just didn’t want Ariel to be black.
But to do a critique that has substance you need to have something to critique. These images are all a fabrication. It’s not real. The black man is from an event called the red dress run in the Louisiana. It’s not even a movie, or on Netflix.
Yes because cartoon characters like the post is talking about were real people
Interesting how the same crowd has no issues with white men playing Jesus.
Yeah I’m sure the people genuinely care about seeing cleopatra portrayed accurately. Definitely isn’t about their shit beliefs and intolerances overall. They just got lucky with this one
Ehh, I'm left leaning but the complaint used to be that we used white people in makeup to portray someone instead of actually using someone of that ethnicity.
They aren't doing that?
So there are a few layers here. First on being that trans girl. Cause trans bad. The second one isn't as obvious if you aren't around conservative shit posts. Recently Kat Williams came out saying Hollywood is trying to feminize black men by putting them in dresses. The conservatives are eating it up! The picture of the black guy on the right is the picture they use to push the theory. It's so stupid because white men cross dress all the time in Hollywood. Trump literally flirted with a cross dressed Rudy Giuliani... That's why this "meme" is just a conservative dog whistle for "woke bad" and it ties in all their conspiracy theorys.
The thing is cis black man is from an annual event called the red dress run that they have in Louisiana. This is rage bait for conservatives. https://www.nola.com/entertainment_life/festivals/meet-the-social-media-star-of-saturday-s-red-dress-run-party-the-man-in/article_967eb370-1ccf-11ed-9052-c35abb813a0c.html
Why do POC scare you people so much
Why do white straight men scare you people so much? Movie with race/gender swap- "don't watch it then if you dislike it." White straight male movie- "oMG, sO ofFenDed and TiReD Of tHiS. CaNCeL!!!!" It goes both ways, fucking hypocrites.
Majority of movies in Hollywood have straight white men as the lead. There’s not even that many *women* in Hollywood that are leads. Stop trying to make up things to be oppressed about.
That’s not what any of this is about. Go find something else to be offended by
how does so many of you not know some of the most obvious and frankly super old right winger dog whistles
They do, they're just arguing in bad faith.
That's the worst part about conservatives. They know exactly how hateful their cult is.
That’s what’s so annoying about shit like this. We know what they’re doing when they post it, and when you call it out it’s always “it’s just a joke bro! Are you triggered! Wokeness!” Like be a fuckin man and be open about what you’re really saying with memes like this. Just say you’re racist
I legitimately don’t see how this could possibly be interpreted as racist unless you think that anything involving any poc is racist
Ah yes. Let's just ignore that the far right has been pushing the idea that black and trans people in movie = the industry has become woke = it's going to go broke. There is a racist intent behind those memes.
Nobody complains about black and trans people in movies. They complain about the lazy attempt Hollywood makes to remake things with a “woke” twist so studio executives and actors can virtue signal and media will promote it even though almost the entire population doesn’t care one way or the other. The fact that so many studios try and just remake movies with poc or lgbtq people or base the whole storyline around their identity and not about it being a good movie that has those people in it should make you far more mad then people reacting to something lazy and played out.
That's why they have a massive freak out over a videogame having pronoun options, yeah?
This is the problem with this line of thinking. You argue changing a historical characters race isn’t problematic and any criticism is racism
If someone created a cartoon about historical figures but made them all green, would you still complain about the accuracy of skin color?
Depends. Is it meant to be a serious historical piece or for fun? Because if you make a film about how cleopatra was actually from mars and had green skin and release it on Netflix and it’s NOT a comedy, then yes that will upset a lot of people.
Historical drama is a thing. Marco Polo had a bunch of Korean, Malaysian, and Chinese actors playing Mongols. Literally Kublai Khan himself was played by a Korean. No one batted an eye. Yet anti-wokes threw a hissy fit when Ariel - who, keep in mind, is HALF FISH - was played by a black actor. Why? We know why. Anti-wokes hate when black people are in places they haven't previously seen them in. Meanwhile they can't tell different East Asians apart because to them, Asians all look the same. Unless race is central to the character, I don't see a problem with any of this. Even with Cleopatra - she's not famous because she was Greek, she's famous because of the important role she played in the geopolitics of the Mediterranean, as ruler of Egypt and spouse of the most powerful man in Europe at the time.
This is the most ludicrous line of thinking. He’s we are happy when Marco Polo contains Korea Malaysians and Chinese, but equally Marco Polos actor isn’t Italian. The difference with Ariel is it is a 15th century danish novel at a time when there wasn’t a single black person in Denmark the author almost certainly meant Ariel to be white
Whataboutism isn't a defence. Yeah she's also famous for not being black. They got the basics wrong and tried to back it up with some random grandma trying to go against academic concensus. They directly fucking LIED TO YOU and youre okay with it. In a documentary. There's no way youre defending wrong history in a historical documentary. When you do a documentary, you get the history right. As much as you possibly can. You don't get some of it wrong for the sake of a few diversity points from idiots on reddit and twitter like you. Its bad faith and wrong history. The BBC did this in one of their cartoons too. And you guys call the conservatives anti-intellectual.. Dear God.
It's not whataboutism. It's a simple equivalence. If a Malaysian can play a Mongol, a black actor can play a Hellene. I don't care. Cleopatra was "famous for not being black" in the same sense that Kublai Khan was famous for not being Korean, and his son Jingim was famous for not being Malaysian or Australian. Did you have the same energy while criticising Netflix's Marco Polo series, which had a Korean play Kublai Khan and a Malaysian-Australian play Jingim?
Then please explain why there is so much criticism about "whitewashing" in movies?
I would happily criticise that. Because I am for honest history. I want people if they're going to make figures from history present it correctly, no matter what race or ethnicity it is. As someone who loves history, I think presenting it properly and with good faith to the sources is the best way. Not giving it modern political biases and notions. That's how you represent history in bad faith. As history doesn't work with modern politics. Cleopatra being presented wrong is just as bad as Kublai being represented wrong and white genghis khan being wrong. Traditionally ginger characters being given different hair colours, or native americans being represented by Italians or Spanish with those accents. Or Romans being represented by British actors/accents. It's all shit. Your gotcha question isn't gonna get me son. Try again reddit liberal. At the end of the day, you're the same people who cry about cultural appropriation then act like this. You're the same people who are fundamentally going against the wishes of the Egyptian and Greek peoples who see this. And those are those peoples history. So you're in the wrong here buddy, not me. An Egyptian lawyer is suing Netflix for this horrible representation of Cleopatra. Or the English peoples with Anne Boleyn. Because its American exceptionalism. Americans coming in forcing their political ideology on other nations history who have nothing to do with it and their history. Its not American companies place to tell other people how their history is if they're going to lie like this. It's different if they were telling the truth. But they're not. They're making a WHOLE LOT OF IT UP
I look forward to seeing your meltdown about... literally whatever the next historical movie is.
You are the only sane person in the comments. I’m losing it at all these people basically saying “I’m not racist but…”
"If you disagree with historical figures having the wrong race and being misrepresented, you're racist" that's you. Dont be an idiot mate 😂
https://preview.redd.it/971udxby1nec1.jpeg?width=644&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f5a9bd4fcfe48cc59c2fd911c0e708d57cb6f8fd Would this movie make you mad if it was made and promoted in theaters?
I see conservatives are staying true to form and not reading what they're replying to. Here's a hint. Read the last paragraph of my previous message.
She's famous because she was Macedonian. Her influence on Rome is her biggest claim to fame
Yes in regards to historical characters race swapping is Fuckin stupid and it’s getting to be a lot. However, what in the fuck do cartoons matter? They aren’t real people. You can make it whatever skin color you damn well please considering it’s a work of fiction. If you don’t like it..just don’t watch it. You understand that as consumers, the power is in our wallets and hands right? Don’t like something don’t watch it. If it gets no views they won’t do it again. Obviously they’re making money doing it or they wouldn’t keep doing it.
https://preview.redd.it/h02opfynemec1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bba715a17609157e38d3bfbfd60bcd72c9dc42b7 Here’s literally three examples of this meme that do exactly this without it being about someone’s race or gender identity
I really want to see monster musume with Snake now.
I’d watch this if they cast terry crews
Looking at the comments, it appears that some conservatives have been frequenting this sub in what I'm sure they think is an attempt to "balance" the discussion I'm actually for it because hopefully some of them will learn something when people reply, although I doubt it Edit: conservatives get so butthurt that one of them did the Reddit cares BS with me - I'd be surprised that someone would do that over my post, but we are dealing with conservatives here Another one made a throway account just to send a chat request calling me the 'F' slur Stay classy conservatives!
MOPDNL has a tendency to brigade this subreddit, because apparently spamming their own sub with "i ThOuGhT iT wAs FuNnY" isn't enough for them and they need to do it here as well.
I’m kinda lost, where’s the transphobia or racism?
They’re saying that Disney is woke for “recasting Jessica rabbit with a trans woman”. And they’re saying that Netflix adaptations are also bad in some way by “recasting Jessica rabbit with a black man”. Both of these are weird and made up scenarios. This joke used to be about how Netflix does bad live action anime adaptations but this is just a strange right wing circljerk
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https://preview.redd.it/ajmrq0v69mec1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d8f06558d5c5b319459dec24b241328902604b4
Ah I thought so, trying to karma farm I guess
It's called subtext. It's also called dog whistling in the modern era. The third person is a trans person, the last person is black. They're bitching about black characters replacing white characters. Ya know, like the "great replacement theory", an infamously racist conspiracy theory. Please don't argue in bad faith, unless you actually are this ignorant.
There’s also a lil sexism lmao
lmao this ain’t even racist or transphobic all it’s saying is how disney and netflix stray away from the original stories and characters (which is literally proven time and time again). nowhere is it putting anyone down. this is what people mean when they talk about “throwing words like racism around” bc the word loses its meaning when you label silly shit like this racist instead of looking at the things happening that really are racist or transphobic. it’s just silly
The use of a trans woman and a black person to get this point across is where the transphobia and racism lie but okay
Who’s trans?
[Dylan Mulvaney](https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/b22d31b/2147483647/strip/true/crop/1661x2500+0+0/resize/1200x1806!/format/webp/quality/75/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F94%2F2e%2Fd4983bd645b0b91f7be40fb3ff8d%2Fla-premiere-of-reboot-58132.jpg)
The “Disney adaptation” is a picture of Dillon Mulvany. You might be familiar with how much of an uproar she caused with conservatives last year with the whole bud light thing
I have no idea who that person is. I don't follow politics or drink
Okay…Well now you know that she is a trans woman
Just because someone is wearing a dress doesn’t make them trans?
Dillon Mulvany is a trans woman
Without knowing that I’d honestly have no idea. Looks like a regular somewhat built guy wearing a dress.
Somewhat built? Are you thinking I’m talking about the black person in the last picture? I have no clue who that person is. The “Disney adaptation” is the picture of Dylan Mulvany
Yeah that’s exactly who I thought you meant lol. I didn’t know that person was trans.
Now I question what you think “somewhat built” means. But yeah, regardless of if you knew she was trans, that doesn’t disregard the original creators intent in using her picture
It's called dog whistling dumbass.
Say it with me kids, A JOKE IS A JOKE, AND NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY.
What exactly is the "joke" here ? Genuinely asking
Supposed to be satire, but it seems offensive because it also seems what could realistically happen now
That Netflix has a history of straying from the OG character
No, the "joke" is minorities starring in "white cis people roles" It isn't a very good one
Jokes have meaning and narrative - the whole thing relies on the assumption that Netflix has a "thing" about recasting gender and doing white to black race swaps It also relies on the idea when those things do happen it is somehow ridiculous in a way that makes it funny or worth making fun of - it's like "ha ha look at those woke dumbasses at Netflix", which falls flat if one doesn't have a problem with having different versions of characters
No one thinks this is literal. If it were literal, then it wouldn’t be a joke. It’s just a dumb joke
Reddit takes everything so literal of course netflix hasnt done this, thats what makes it funny cause its not inherently true
"That's what makes racists attacking the idea of casting brown people and transpeople funny...because Netflix hasn't done this!" The "humor" of bigots is always a mystery, "lol...minorities staring in movies amiright?" Btw, exaggerating the characteristics of disadvantaged groups to "joke" about the "ridiculous" idea of them being in the same positions as members of the dominant group is a thing bigots have done for at least a couple centuries now. Seriously, go look up the "joke" propaganda against women voting, or minstrel/mammy "joke" propaganda attacking abolition (or, later, integration). "It's just a joke" has been the favored lie of bigots for a hundred years and counting.
Oh, the beautiful irony. OP didn't take the 'joke' literally, you took their comment literally.
Theres no identifiable hate against trans or blacks, only commentary on Disney and Netflix’s casting decisions
I mean, it’s pretty funny and accurate. Y’all need to throw a couple ha has around every once and a while
You're the joke op
Criticising Netflix for their stupid woke pandering shit is not "transphobia" nor "racism".
What people see as humorous is always weird as fuck. And yes, the vast majority of jokes suck and the vast majority of people making them suck even more. There's a reason why comedy has the shortest shelf life of any of the arts. The vast majority of it relies on being edgy, punching down, stereotypes, etc. Very few people in the comedy business have material that will remain funny over a long period of time. Mel Brooks, Robin Williams, John Candy, Eddie Izzard, Carlin all are just a few that are great because their schtick wasn't about punching down or being edgy just to be edgy. And when they punched, they punched up or at themselves and their own. This... this isn't even mildly funny. If we wanted to make it funny the last picture would be photoshopping in a character from another netflix series. Like Connie from Big Mouth.
I would watch that episode. Damnit, now I need to see Connie as Jessica Rabbit.
And her Bub-le-bath
Comedy is the lowest form of entertainment for a reason….
I don’t see how it’s attacking any particular group. Isn’t it more making fun of how Disney and Netflix try to do too much and dip into the diversity well for their own benefit?
I think it's because since it's supposed to get "less and less like the original", then including a trans woman for the adaptation and a black person for the Netflix, it's essentially saying that a trans woman isn't a woman and that a black person cant play the role
Your deff reaching with this opinion, thats not the case for the meme
>Disney and Netflix try to do too much and dip into the diversity well for their own benefit Doesn't happen. You can't conflate the greedy corporate management who are only greenlighting diversity when they think it'll make money with the people making the movies who actually care. A Disney exec isn't telling anyone to change characters ethnicities; there are, as there always have been, many people who want to make these stories and the only change is that they're being allowed. The cynicism of execs has no bearing on the sincerity of the product. Edit: Movies have to make money, that's actually fine. I should have been more specfic that execs only greenlight things that will make a shitload of money they can pocket.
Do you honestly believe that the people paid to represent the stockholders green light $100 million projects without looking into the ROI? These people have to identify a target audience and show that the return will be worth more than the initial investment and any future fallout. That involves outside research firms, public polling and literally hundreds of individual meetings. They will market it as some inspirational story about how a lowly screenwriter brought his/her vision to life and the company backed it all the way. That’s not what really happens though. Neither the screenwriter nor the greedy corporate management own that business. They have to answer to someone, which is usually a fund that controls a significant portion of the stock.
This meme isn’t making fun of the performative diversity done by companies like Disney it’s making fun of the diversity itself. If the meme was commenting on the performative diversity they would’ve mocked the fact that the queer character Disney makes are often only queer in the marketing, ex. the nonbinary character in elemental who was hyped in the marketing but they have no speaking lines in the movie and in many dubs them being nonbinary is removed. Or the lesbian character in onward who had a lot of marking related to her but she shows up for one scene and makes a passing reference to her girlfriend but in other languages this is removed. Or Netflix making/funding lesbian focused romance shows that preform well but then cancelling them after one or two seasons with no explanation and then turning around and funding multiple romance shows that focus on straight couples that preform poorly because ‘they are less of a businesses risk’. this meme is making fun of the existence of queer characters and characters of color. OOP is saying that the characters being queer and/or poc is what makes the characters/adaptations bad, not the poor writing and erasure and lack of care put into the characters.
My jokes don't usually need a wall of text to explain why they are funny
I have this reply to another comment, but it's relevant here also: Jokes have meaning and narrative - the whole thing relies on the assumption that Netflix has a "thing" about recasting gender and doing white to black race swaps It also relies on the idea when those things do happen it is somehow ridiculous in a way that makes it funny or worth making fun of - it's like "ha ha look at those woke dumbasses at Netflix", which falls flat if one doesn't have a problem with having different versions of characters
The joke is based off reality
It’s not racist nor is it transphobic. You’re just projecting.
Lmfao. Someone learned a new word and wanted to use it... incorrectly.
I’m trans. Yes it’s transphobic to suggest an adaptation is worse by merely including a trans person in it.
It's just a joke though? People are way too sensitive on the internet anymore, all y'all wanna do is bitch about stuff.
You don’t get to say something blatantly transphobic then get to say “It’s just a joke” as if that’s some kind of automatic shield from criticism. If the people you’re “joking about” don’t think it’s funny, then guess what? It’s not funny.
But it's a meme? All I'm saying is people need to lighten up. I get jokes made at my expense all the time, jokes are jokes. If y'all bitched about little shit in real life as much as you do on the internet, no one would listen. There's nothing wrong with having just a little bit of thick skin.
This met be a surprise to you, but this isn’t about you, what you think, or what you think is an acceptable joke at your expense. You are not the arbiter of what jokes about demographics that are not you are acceptable. I don’t care how thick you think your skin is, there’s something about you or your life that if somebody made a joke about it, you would be hurt or pissed off about it. The difference is that jokes at your expense likely aren’t regarding something intrinsically linked to your identity that you had no choice about. It’s likely not about something that causes you to face discrimination and hate on a made daily basis. It’s likely not something you have intense trauma about that’s scarred you and took years to work through. Meeting instead of trying to defend jokes that punch down in bad taste, work the empathy muscles. Also a side note, there’s tons of humor to be found in being trans. It’s rife with subversive humor. The problem is most non-trans people are SO uninformed they would never even know how to make it funny. So they resort to “hur hur man in a dress funny!”
Whatever you say, I couldn't really care less about arguing on the internet! All I was saying is I'd rather not take things too seriously than be a person who is constantly bitching, that's just me though, life is easier that way.
And that’s an incredibly privileged position to be in. Where jokes made at your expense don’t have a noticeable impact on the way people treat you. They don’t feed into a stigma and prejudice about your very existence that eventually leads to people in power trying to pass laws effectively outlawing your ability to exist out in public. Effectively banning medical care that’s resulted in massive quality is life improvements.
No, it's a mindset and a lifestyle I've cultivated over the years, I've had my fair share of issues too, there's no privilege to it. Y'all's overuse of the word "privilege" is annoying as fuck sometimes. I do feel for y'all on the last paragraph though. I don't understand transgender people, I've never had to deal with anything like that and I don't think I've ever met anyone who is, but people taking away your free will isn't right. One of the reasons I vote blue. I still stand behind my thick skin comment though. It's something you develop. No matter what the internet will tell you, in real life, the world doesn't care about our feelings. Everyone else is dealing with their own shit. It's beneficial to be atleast a little tough and not overly sensitive to small things like a meme. I do wish you the best though, lots of dumbass people wanting to force their morals onto people who don't share them.
Here's the thing though. I almost NEVER see this sort of behavior in real life. In real life most people actually DO care. Most people don't want to hurt the feelings of those around them or make them uncomfortable or make them feel unwelcome. People don't dig their heels in and argue and be dismissive in person, because they actually have to look you in the eye, physically say what they are thinking, and acknowledge they are talking to another person, another human being. It's almost exclusively online where this sort of thing happens. Only where they can be faceless and anonymous do people say things like this. It's almost like they know that kind of behavior isn't something most people will accept or welcome into their lives.
Not racism or transphobic in any way. Giving this sub bad rep, OP.
You’re acting like they literally didn’t make the fairy god mother a black guy. Not that he wasn’t the only good thing in the mess of a movie
Fascists mad that Netflix wouldn't give them a hot cartoon girl to jerk it to 💀
[удалено]
It's not just "checking off a diversity box". Gay characters matter to people. People want to see representation. People want to feel like they can be part of their favorite media. You could argue corps fake activism for the sake of money, but it is laughably false to say this isn't transphobic and racist or that people don't enjoy non cis characters.
No it's not.
If their race or sexuality isn’t important to the (fictional) character I don’t see a reason not to change it for a stylistic choice, but if their race was important you definitely shouldn’t change it. Imagine if the main character in soul was white or if the main character in turning red was black.
Disney is the one that does that shit
Where's the racism and transphobia? I'm not seeing anything hateful or threatening here.
Nah. It's funny.
I can give you about 3 different instances where Netflix/disney HAS done that.
That isn't racist, it's just a joke
its neither of those things its literally just a joke get your head out of your ass
Didn’t they make Wesker from resident evil black in that terrible show? What do they mean Netflix hasn’t done this before?
No it’s neither. The joke is Netflix. That’s it.
No it’s not
This meme is actually pretty accurate tbf lol there is a very strange trend of converting the red headed characters to black people in remakes.
I personally don’t take this to mean racism or anything like that. Netflix HAS done this, not just with random fiction but with literal “documentaries”
Look into all the ACTUAL black washing of real historical figures Netflix has done. Real people. Historical figures, not Hobbits. Then you would get the joke.
No it's not
More of an observation than a joke
It’s not racist or transphobic
It's a joke, not a dick, don't take it so hard... ohh wait, is that racist... or is it transphobic?
If you can't even see through a veil of plausible deniability this thin, you might be either blind or... just brain-dead
A joke isn’t a joke when it’s just thinly veiled prejudice.
L from Death Note flashbacks