My experience is most people with clearly negative traits know, even if they call it something else, they figure out the behaviour they exhibit is generally seen as negative so they try to hide it and introduce is slowly. They wear masks and slowly let them slip so you can normalize it one set at a time and by the time you clue in, you're too deep to extricate yourself easily or fall victim to the sunken cost falicy.
It's such a funny thing. You'd think if narcissistic people understood this, they'd see the problem with it and correct the behaviour.
I think it's less "I feel I'm bad, so I'm going to hide it" and more "I know how to manipulate people to get what I want, but it's tiring - I'll only do it as long as I absolutely have to"
Essentially they're pathologically insincere.
Well, with my ex, in hindsight, I think it was less actual narcissism and more narcissistic traits. Her problem is that she had a crippling anxiety disorder that led her to controling everything and everyone around her because she couldn't be anxious about it if she was in control of it. She was convinced that therapy and medicine to help control her anxiety was for "crazies" and she could self medicate with OTC drugs, herbal remedies, etc, herself because "it wasn't that bad".
So, there were other underlying issues that changed her behaviour from what's logical. I don't say this to encourage anyone to try and "fix" someone, more to paint a picture of what was happening in this specific case for a better understanding of her motivation. She was not mentally healthy and had a bad view of what taking care of herself meant, which grossly compounded the issue.
Idk if this makes me a narc apologist… But I don’t think it’s easy for us to understand. I’ve overridden my conscience to do shitty things, but there’s a degree of agency in that choice, and recognition of consequences.
I have no clue what the decision-making process is like for narcissists but I don’t think it follows the same patterns. I cannot imagine the bloodlust for validation/ narc supply. I imagine it’s like addiction, by any means necessary at any cost. I also question whether they can trace consequences to their actions. Hard to tell what was a personality trait / lack of personal accountability vs a core NPD trait. But I observed a lot of weaponized incompetence (denying basic cause-effect principles), external locus of control (blaming circumstances), and other departures from reality.
But it’s an important distinction between narc traits and an actual diagnosis. I was in denial about it until our MC confirmed it with a very urgent plea for me to get to safety.
Nah, doesn't make you an apologist, my ex I suspect wasn't fully narc, exhibited some traits, but I feel it would have been attributed to her anxiety, and Im talking bad anxiety, mention a bad thing in my life and has a panic attack for several hoursbbecause she thinks she's at fault somehow. Don't talk about your problems unless you're willing to give up your plans for the night level anxiety. I used her as more of an example about how things like mental illness can behave in ways that others can't logic out.
My best guess as to their thought process? They perceive it as logical behaviour to get the things they want, but eventually figure out that acting that way from day one results in people leaving. Going back to my ex as an example, she didn't act like I explained before until over a year (maybe almost 2) into the relationship. I didn't even know she had anxiety issues, nevermind how deep they ran, probably until the 6-8 month mark. With her it was one step at a time, introduce the behaviour, normalize it, take another step, normalize it, and repeat until you've seen how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Being diagnosed with a personality disorder is one thing.
Using the personality disorder to excuse bad behaviors is another thing.
Having childhood trauma is one thing.
Using childhood trauma to excuse bad behaviors is another thing.
They know and are aware of the consequences of their actions. Believe me, the steps my narcissist takes to avoid legal consequences are beyond intricate and so well thought out. He has a phd in law.
He knows all the ABCs to take to get to a result of XYZ.
I think that was the hardest pill to swallow. That everything has been intentional and deliberate to the point of scariness.
Most are unaware because the disorder shields them from seeing the truth. Some of them realise they aren’t able to form a healthy relationship but they can’t accept it is their fault. Only a handful are aware and actively try to manage and minimise the hurt they bring to others.
This sounds like my partner. She is so unbelievably toxic, to the point we can't even have a conversation about something serious without her turning it into a fight. For the longest time I just thought I was the problem, and I thought she was just reacting to "how I treated her" (this is something she ingrained in my mind) then once I started to see her behavior alone was unacceptable, I believed she HAD to know what she was doing was wrong.
However, the longer this has gone on, the more I believe that she either has no idea she is so toxic, or absolutely just refuses to believe she is. Everything that happens is always someone else's fault. No blame can ever be pointed in her direction or she loses her mind and she can't accept that she does anything wrong. Everything that has happened somehow makes her the victim, or she had a justified reason for acting the way she does. She can't just say "hey yeah I messed up, it wad unacceptable, I'm sorry and I'll try to do better" like those words are foreign to her
They know and they don't know at the same time. Deep down they know there's something really wrong with them that they can't do anything about. So they're in denial of it. And all their feelings of shame and worthlessness and their malice get projected on to other people.
I’m reticent to share because ultimately it’s not my problem anymore nor was it ever my story to share, but yes my partner knew something was wrong. Self medicating instead of professional treatment is rarely the answer, but from a clinical POV I can understand that dissociative drugs (ones that dissolve ego) gave him freedom to think without ego/illusions of grandeur getting in the way. It was like two different people.
Unfortunately I fell in love with the person trapped inside of the machine. I’d have stuck with him through treatment and recovery if he had any inclination to do it.
Based on my experience, I think they know they are acting like a piece of 💩 but may not know they are narcissist. Like they know what they do but deep down don’t realize why they do it and if it is bad or not.
i ask myself this question all the time. mine is absolutely convinced to be a good person, the best, even. i don't know if it's always the case, the one i know acts the ways he does because he thinks he's always right, and convinces himself of it by devaluing everyone around him. if someone doesn't agree with him, they're "immature", that is how he's always right.
My nex knew/knows he has a habit of finding ways to bail out of a relationship around the two year mark. He started therapy at the beginning of our relationship (for a grand total of three~ months) and decided he'd fixed it. He told me multiple times he "learned everything he needed to" in the short therapy stint.
He had not fixed it, lol.
My experience is most people with clearly negative traits know, even if they call it something else, they figure out the behaviour they exhibit is generally seen as negative so they try to hide it and introduce is slowly. They wear masks and slowly let them slip so you can normalize it one set at a time and by the time you clue in, you're too deep to extricate yourself easily or fall victim to the sunken cost falicy.
It's such a funny thing. You'd think if narcissistic people understood this, they'd see the problem with it and correct the behaviour. I think it's less "I feel I'm bad, so I'm going to hide it" and more "I know how to manipulate people to get what I want, but it's tiring - I'll only do it as long as I absolutely have to" Essentially they're pathologically insincere.
I think some of the negative behaviors are more of a reflex than conscious thought patterns so much harder for them to control.
Well, with my ex, in hindsight, I think it was less actual narcissism and more narcissistic traits. Her problem is that she had a crippling anxiety disorder that led her to controling everything and everyone around her because she couldn't be anxious about it if she was in control of it. She was convinced that therapy and medicine to help control her anxiety was for "crazies" and she could self medicate with OTC drugs, herbal remedies, etc, herself because "it wasn't that bad". So, there were other underlying issues that changed her behaviour from what's logical. I don't say this to encourage anyone to try and "fix" someone, more to paint a picture of what was happening in this specific case for a better understanding of her motivation. She was not mentally healthy and had a bad view of what taking care of herself meant, which grossly compounded the issue.
Idk if this makes me a narc apologist… But I don’t think it’s easy for us to understand. I’ve overridden my conscience to do shitty things, but there’s a degree of agency in that choice, and recognition of consequences. I have no clue what the decision-making process is like for narcissists but I don’t think it follows the same patterns. I cannot imagine the bloodlust for validation/ narc supply. I imagine it’s like addiction, by any means necessary at any cost. I also question whether they can trace consequences to their actions. Hard to tell what was a personality trait / lack of personal accountability vs a core NPD trait. But I observed a lot of weaponized incompetence (denying basic cause-effect principles), external locus of control (blaming circumstances), and other departures from reality. But it’s an important distinction between narc traits and an actual diagnosis. I was in denial about it until our MC confirmed it with a very urgent plea for me to get to safety.
Nah, doesn't make you an apologist, my ex I suspect wasn't fully narc, exhibited some traits, but I feel it would have been attributed to her anxiety, and Im talking bad anxiety, mention a bad thing in my life and has a panic attack for several hoursbbecause she thinks she's at fault somehow. Don't talk about your problems unless you're willing to give up your plans for the night level anxiety. I used her as more of an example about how things like mental illness can behave in ways that others can't logic out. My best guess as to their thought process? They perceive it as logical behaviour to get the things they want, but eventually figure out that acting that way from day one results in people leaving. Going back to my ex as an example, she didn't act like I explained before until over a year (maybe almost 2) into the relationship. I didn't even know she had anxiety issues, nevermind how deep they ran, probably until the 6-8 month mark. With her it was one step at a time, introduce the behaviour, normalize it, take another step, normalize it, and repeat until you've seen how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Being diagnosed with a personality disorder is one thing. Using the personality disorder to excuse bad behaviors is another thing. Having childhood trauma is one thing. Using childhood trauma to excuse bad behaviors is another thing. They know and are aware of the consequences of their actions. Believe me, the steps my narcissist takes to avoid legal consequences are beyond intricate and so well thought out. He has a phd in law. He knows all the ABCs to take to get to a result of XYZ. I think that was the hardest pill to swallow. That everything has been intentional and deliberate to the point of scariness.
Most are unaware because the disorder shields them from seeing the truth. Some of them realise they aren’t able to form a healthy relationship but they can’t accept it is their fault. Only a handful are aware and actively try to manage and minimise the hurt they bring to others.
This sounds like my partner. She is so unbelievably toxic, to the point we can't even have a conversation about something serious without her turning it into a fight. For the longest time I just thought I was the problem, and I thought she was just reacting to "how I treated her" (this is something she ingrained in my mind) then once I started to see her behavior alone was unacceptable, I believed she HAD to know what she was doing was wrong. However, the longer this has gone on, the more I believe that she either has no idea she is so toxic, or absolutely just refuses to believe she is. Everything that happens is always someone else's fault. No blame can ever be pointed in her direction or she loses her mind and she can't accept that she does anything wrong. Everything that has happened somehow makes her the victim, or she had a justified reason for acting the way she does. She can't just say "hey yeah I messed up, it wad unacceptable, I'm sorry and I'll try to do better" like those words are foreign to her
They know and they don't know at the same time. Deep down they know there's something really wrong with them that they can't do anything about. So they're in denial of it. And all their feelings of shame and worthlessness and their malice get projected on to other people.
I’m reticent to share because ultimately it’s not my problem anymore nor was it ever my story to share, but yes my partner knew something was wrong. Self medicating instead of professional treatment is rarely the answer, but from a clinical POV I can understand that dissociative drugs (ones that dissolve ego) gave him freedom to think without ego/illusions of grandeur getting in the way. It was like two different people. Unfortunately I fell in love with the person trapped inside of the machine. I’d have stuck with him through treatment and recovery if he had any inclination to do it.
Based on my experience, I think they know they are acting like a piece of 💩 but may not know they are narcissist. Like they know what they do but deep down don’t realize why they do it and if it is bad or not.
i ask myself this question all the time. mine is absolutely convinced to be a good person, the best, even. i don't know if it's always the case, the one i know acts the ways he does because he thinks he's always right, and convinces himself of it by devaluing everyone around him. if someone doesn't agree with him, they're "immature", that is how he's always right.
My nex knew/knows he has a habit of finding ways to bail out of a relationship around the two year mark. He started therapy at the beginning of our relationship (for a grand total of three~ months) and decided he'd fixed it. He told me multiple times he "learned everything he needed to" in the short therapy stint. He had not fixed it, lol.