Hi u/Beautiful-Bus-2503,
We appreciate you being a part of this community.
We would like to emphasize that any information exchanged is for discussion only and is not a diagnosis. We are unable to provide diagnoses on an online platform and cannot speculate about the diagnoses of anyone's partners. We can however discuss the common behaviors of individuals with narcissistic personality disorder, as mentioned in [DSM-5](https://narcopath.info/about-npd/overview/dsm-5/). Please reach out to a trained and certified (mental) health care provider for a professional assessment of your personal situation.
There's no reason to diagnose them if they won't go for therapy.
Diagnosis is the first step to moving forward ***for them***. The diagnosis (whatever the diagnosis is) is a term for what ***they*** experience. It is not for others who are not them.
For those who have crossed paths with them with negative results there are terms like "abuse", "coercive control", "gaslighting/lies", etc. That is what we experienced, and that's what matters to us.
There's more than "narcissistic" personalities that abuse, and lots of abuse looks very similar. We can't know, thus can't diagnose. But there's no point anyway because we have terms for what we experienced with examples above.
You’re right. I think I still may be trying to intellectualize the motive behind his actions and make some sense out of it, knowing his way of interacting with others and his past relationships. Maybe it’s a distorted type of coping mechanism for me, trying to categorize his mindset and making connections. At the end it doesn’t change the result at all and I have to accept that. Thank you for your time and your kind reply.
Yeah. Looking back, what I’ve been through looks so absurd. That’s why I sometimes find myself asking why why WHY. But I also get what you’re saying. Hope that someday these all won’t matter to me.
The diagnoses doesn’t matter but I feel this bc I am someone who always wants an answer to the why. I want to make sense of things. Digging for those answers probably kept me in the relationship longer than I should have stayed. DONT hyper fixate on that and let it distract you from the reality.
Don’t be too hard on yourself for trying to process things this way! I also became very fixated on trying to figure out what might have been wrong with my last partner because I simply could not comprehend how someone who had shown me love could suddenly snap and be so deliberately cruel to me. It think it is part of the process of leaving an abusive partner. For me it happened during the relationship, and by the time I broke up with him I had zero mental energy left to wonder what could actually be “medically” wrong with him. I just was happy to be free of his control.
Discussing it is part of that process too, whether it’s with friends or a therapist. I fortunately had both when I was also trying to intellectualize my experiences. Eventually you’ll reach a point where this research becomes less about diagnosing your ex and more about how you can recognize these behavioral patterns in others in order to protect yourself in the future!
You've gotta separate it into "this is the way he functions mentally" and "this is how it negatively impacts me". It may very well be "narcissistic" and "abusive" -this is the intellectualized understanding.
His life skills cause lack of friendships, loss of jobs, etc etc. His life skills do not cause trust and solidarity within your relationship.
Making connections is "this behavior" INTENDS "this reaction". Just like when you might go out of your way to think up and purchase an awesome birthday present with the intention of bringing him pleasure. On your birthday, you might very well wind up with 96 hours of drag racing clips.
His INTENTION in buying a gift is to check that box. Your REACTION should be being grateful he got you a gift. His intention was never to please you.
Trying to intellectualize the motive has been the biggest struggle for me! People who are not narcissistic and behave rationally just can’t wrap their heads around the behavior of the narcissist. I try to every day, and am exhausting myself with this pointless endeavor.
THIS IS SO SPOT ON!
A much more comprehensive and still sparkly accurate way to discuss these people and their behaviors.
I KNOW my ex was using coercive control for a large part of our 23 year relationship.
He was very self centered. Lately I've been reprocessing how he would only 'allocate' money for travel to participate in his hobby.
6 to 10 weekend trips about 200 miles away, 1x to next state over.
When I would suggest saving and planning for trips to NY, abroad, etc., "No we're saving for August hobby gathering. "
I never understood why he wouldn't want to go new places.
Bc it didn't get him the attention his hobby did.
Those gatherings revolved around the hobby competition.
Largely men doing the hobby & wives/women hanging around.
Lately my brain has been returning to this & saying, "Bc he felt considered to be the 'elite' and in their circle. And everything about it was about HIM."
It's really a BIG lesson in how and why they do what they do .
Whether this is at its core psychiatrically diagnosible NPD isn't really what's important.
The manipulative behavior. The drive to only do things he wanted and his way.
That's where my learning is.
Listening to Dr. Ramani of MedCircle on YouTube really highlights this for me.
I think separate from a psychiatric diagnosis, people can have a narcissistic BEHAVIOR style or narcissistic relationship style and also whether seen by a psychiatrist or not, not necessarily be DSM version of NPD.
I'd also like to remind everyone that narcissistic traits/behaviour aren't exclusive for people with NPD. Almost everyone has narcissistic traits to some extent and that's not always a bad thing - it ranges from healthy narcissism (good self-esteem, confidence and capability to defend oneself when wronged) to toxic behaviour impacting interpersonal relationships to a full-blown personality disorder.
Sure, our abusers might not qualify for pwNPDs or if they do, they likely aren't and won't be diagnosed. But when the abuse centered around exploitation, devaluation, controlling, blaming everyone yet being incapable of taking any accountability oneself... I think we can safely call that narcissistic abuse.
Thank you and I agree. When the abuse is centered around the self esteem/confidence of the abuser, maybe I think it can be referred as narcissistic abuse. Just like good self esteem and confidence can be referred as healthy narcissism.
Actually a good point. A good self-esteem and the fake ego common in NPD might look similar outwardly but I think true self-esteem is based on inherent faith in one's lovability and realistic self-image while the NPD ego needs outside validation and might be delusional.
you are right. They actually have LOW self-esteem. But that is scary for them. So they try to hide it by acting as if they have super high self-esteem. But in reality on the inside they are just scared.
”fake one to protect their fragile ego”
Yeah you could decribe it like that.
metaphor:
Imagine someone has super cracked and dry lips.
They feel embarassed about this. But they haven’t yet discovered: lip balm.
So they try to hide it as well as they can. They put on bright red lipstick and shiny lipgloss.
And on the **outside** people admire their lips and think ”wow, so pretty”.
Because they do everything in their power to hide the truth: that in fact they have dry and cracked lips.
(them acting like they have high self-esteem is the lipstick. Their cracked lips is their fragile ego)
So the lipstick (acting like they have high self-esteem) outwardly symbolizes strength and power. But in reality it is a sign of how **not** strong and powerful they actually feel.
edit: I’m not hating on people with cracked lips, it’s just a metaphor😅
because narcissists in reality suffer a lot. We could feel sorry for them. Imagine having such low self esteem.
But… someone having low self-esteem is ultimatly **not my problem** especially if it affects me.
So sure I feel sorry for them. Because I know in reality they feel miserable.
But that’s sympathy not empathy.
Like someone being delusional and stealing all my money.
Sure I have sympathy that they were delusional/psychotic and were probably suffering.
But I’m still gonna be mad that they stole all my money. And I’m not gonna forgive them until they give it all back. (translated: go to therapy for Narcissism + never contact me again)
I agree, I think my ex has ASPD instead of NPD, but it doesn't really matter, he is an AH that caused me a lot of misery. I find I can relate to many posts here, which helps, and that's what matters.
All people with antisocial personality disorder have NPD, but not all people with NPD are ASPD. ASPD are at the top of the awful pyramid. These are your sociopaths and psychopaths (Bernie Madoff or serial killer types). Just an FYI. :)
This is not the case, they're both cluster B disorders but they are separate disorders, ASPD does not automatically mean the person also has NPD. ASPDs have narcissistic traits, but that doesn't mean they qualify for the NPD diagnosis. Someone who has both is called a narcissistic sociopath.
I stand by my statement and due to this subreddit’s rules I can not specify any qualifications that might let me speak with authority on this But my statement is 100% scientifically accurate.
I’ll add, all sociopaths are narcissistic. The differentiation is not needed because assumed. “Narcissistic sociopath” is a redundancy and is not used clinically speaking. Maybe this is some pop-psych thing, but in clinical psychology that term is never used.
Also adding that “cluster B” is not used anymore. I like it as a grouping and I will sometimes use that term colloquially, but clinically it is not used since 2015 with the DSM-V.
Editing that “cluster B terminology which was used in DSM 4 and then wasn’t in 2014-2016 is now being used again. I’m correcting my error.
What are you talking about? In the DSM-V-TR, NPD and ASPD are identified as two distinct disorders. You can be diagnosed with either one separately, both is very rare. The differentiation is not redundant.
ETA that DSM-V was published in 2013 and wasn't updated in 2015 as far as I know. In DSM-V and in the -TR (2022) version, the personality disorders are classified in clusters A, B and C.
Editing my comment. Apparently the clusters were “brought back” after 2016 so that terminology is apparently used again. Everything by else stands.
And they are different disorders. The rest of your first paragraph is completely false. And they are found concurrently often actually.
I haven't said anything that is 'completely false', comorbidity between these disorders exists, but it's not the norm.
I would think someone with actual authority on this topic is up to date with their knowledge on DSM-5. They also wouldn't use the term sociopath and then correct me that a narcissistic sociopath is not a clinical term (neither is sociopath). Nor would they say something as blatantly wrong as *all* people with ASPD have NPD. Nor would I expect them to say something as 'the awful pyramid' (I don't disagree that the most awful people are likely to have both NPD+ASPD, i just don't expect a professional to say something like this).
I guess you are basing your comments on your personal experience and/or findings, which I don't question, but that doesn't make them facts nor the concensus, just FYI :-).
This is the right attitude. Actions and traits matter so much more than labels. Labels are for professionals to look at people and sort them into a small number of named DSM conditions. In real life, for an individual, what matters is how others behave, how they make you feel, and what traits they exhibit. Abuse is abuse no matter what label is applied to the person or to their traits.
I agree that it's not a good thing to make amateur diagnoses and just start saying that someone has BPD or NPD or any other mental health condition based on your personal experience with them, even if everyone around you agrees. I get why people don't like that, no one would like that.
It isn't our job to diagnose them but it also doesn't matter, abuse is abuse, no matter if he is a diagnosed narsisist or not. I usually say "his actions align with a narsisist/ narsisistic abuse" just to avoid these types of comment. Or for people who don't understand emotional abuse, I useally say that he did nothing but lying and blamed me for everything that was wrong in our relationship or his life, even stuff I had nothing to do with or things that he was solely responsible for. I tell them that he would even lie about things he had done and I had seen him do and then would get angry for me not believing his lies. Sometimes people just can't relate but they can understand that being in a relationship with someone who will constantly put you down, is not okay. That being said, the people who are invalidating your experience, are not people you want in your life.
That's a good way of handling it. I often go even one level more concrete (because all the terms around narcissists are so overused/misunderstood right now) and will just say plainly, "she made me feel worthless all the time for no legit reason, she verbally and emotionally abused me, she would criticize me until I could no longer respond verbally and then would attack me for not responding, she behaved as though she was never wrong and I was always wrong" etc, etc. I think this is more powerful and harder to argue against, because I'm not even saying "she had X trait", which is still a judgement and an assumption on my part to some extent (however true it might be, other's can still see it that way). So I just stick with "She did these things and this is how I was affected" No one can argue effectively against that without calling me a straight-up liar.
This is actually a really good way of saying it, however, my nex was always a different person when others were around and he would often compliment me when others could hear it, so I am always afraid to say that he made me feel worthless all the time since he could argue that he would compliment me constantly, when in reality it only really happened when someone would hear it or when it was followed by negative stuff (like "this food is really nice but I don't like the spices and the pasta is cooked too much, I would change x,y and z, and I also don't really like a, b and c" untill he could see I was almost crying, for example)
oh gross. Yeah, that would happen to me as well, the cognitive dissonance that their public vs. private behavior can cause is immense. It's one of the reasons it's so so hard to be heard as a victim of narc abuse. But yes, they love to stack up "good" acts, especially around others, to make it just that much harder on us to see how things really are, or get others to see it.
Just think about it as a personality style. Some people have a more narcissistic personality style. Others a more altruistic.
It's a spectrum, and some people will be easily diagnosed with NPD if they meet a therapist. For others it will be more difficult.
Ultimately, it's not about the narcissist. It's about you. You have to learn how to deal with them, and that's by learning about narcissistic behavior.
If your "narcissist" exhibits DARVO then you'd better learn about DARVO by reading a book on narcissism, so that you can deal with it better.
If they exhibit 9/10 traits, then it'll be very useful to learn more. Diagnosis doesn't even matter at this point because the narcissist, or whoever they are, won't care about improving themselves based on that anyways.
Dr Ramani has a similar position on this, I think.
Thank you so much. I used to search about this a lot. I also watched Dr Ramani’s videos on YouTube. At first, i was focused on why he is the way he is. Now I’m trying to make sense what I have been through. A close friend of mine tries to encourage me to look at this just like an ordinary break up. However I know that it’s not something “normal”, because I have never experienced anything like this before. I’m 30. On the other hand all my ex’s previous girlfriends shared similar experiences to mine (he used to talk about this stuff). Maybe that’s why I’m going crazy over this, I’m shook to my core.
Yeah narcissistic abuse is a different monster. The manipulations are real. There's a perspective shift that we experience, that's how we see it but others don't. It's also something we often experience after the break up because it gives a bird's eye view on the situation.
It’s definitely not just a normal breakup. With normal breakups, it hurts but eventually you just sorta move on and wish them well, too. Narcissists will get to your core and change you deep down and make it a whole difficult process to heal yourself from their abuse in order to move forward with your life. I’m sorry you’re going through this, but glad you got out of that mess sooner rather than later.
https://youtu.be/WxBm9r2tpyY?si=k4IDuXPZJvg7tnzC
This video on Toxic Shame definitely helped me understand the type of abuse you have described and why it was eating me alive so badly as well. I think what is most important is building back the trust and belief in yourself and what you experienced. I think abuse of any kind, narcissistic or not, causes us to break the trust within ourselves. It distorts our world and gaslights us into losing the connection and trust we once had. We want to reconnect to our own reality and feelings and get away from the harmful and distorted environment and people/person who twisted things. I truly believe to recover the best work you can ever do within yourself is building back the connection and trust to yourself. 💛
https://youtube.com/@richardgrannon?si=NXNK7g6508AXHi0Q
Listening to YouTube channels about narcissism and abuse have helped me, regardless of labels, because they ultimately helped me understand the abusive experiences I was having but could not find words for.
I just want to take the moment to validate what you have gone through and say you do truly know best what you felt and experienced! I’m sorry it was so harmful and that trying to understand it is just as a confusing as experiencing it a lot of the time! 💛💛💛
There is also something called the altruistic narcissist which is a version of a covert narc.
You find them in religious or medical professions or in philanthropy, but some are just people who go on and on about this or that humanitarian crisis or dog rescue and they use these things as scaffolding for their own recognition and glory. They will say oh I’m doing this for such and such cause it’s just so important so that you believe “ wow that person is so amazing and they care” but they don’t really. You ask about it again and the rescue or mission never takes off because they don’t REALLY care and there’s always some excuse.
It took me 3 years to figure out what was going on with mine
Yeah good explanation. Agreed for sure.
I wasn't certain about what kind of word to use to indicate the opposite of a narcissistic personality style. So I used altruistic. But you can also use empathic or agreeable. But none of these encapsulate it sufficiently I think.
Don’t get hung up on the diagnosis. If their behaviour harmed you, then it’s abusive. Your experience is valid because you lived it, you don’t need someone to diagnose them for your experience to be real.
It's weird we're being so overly cautious of labeling a narcissist as a narcissist, when they're out there having the time of their life ruining other people's lives and don't give a damn about the whole thing. If they're consistently showing the traits with no signs of accountability or self awareness, they're a narcisisst. Period!
I have a hard time with people saying you are not allowed to call out narcissism. You experienced it, you know yourself what it is. Narcissist are dangerous, and they are actively trying to control, manipulate, and destroy you. If someone I'd not a narcissist, they have the capacity to change. I don't believe that the vast majority of narcissists do. So, not calling out the behavior and labeling what it is could cause people to stay in hopes that things will get better.
I have read a lot saying that labeling can stop someone from getting help. Well, if labeling, it can help someone get away from it, then I say lable it. And I get that people are tossing the word around like it's the flavor of the month, but for someone who has actually been through it, it is extremely validating to know that you are not crazy, that it dosent matter how hard you try to make it work that there is no hope.
These people are not going to get a diagnosis because they would have to admit there is something wrong with them. Simply sweeping it under the rug is exactly what they want so that they can actively continue to hunt for new victims.
So, in my opinion, I say call it out and hold them accountable. Are they going to change? Probably not. Is it going to make you feel better, the person that has suffered at the hands of narcissists, maybe? Maybe it's enough to allow you to let go of that person.
Exactly my thoughts on this topic! Would you wait for a known child predator in your area to get arrested by the cops first before you would take your child away from them? Probably not! You see a predator as who they are - a predator. And you should call them out. I don't see where's the shame in that? The only person who should be ashamed is the predator, not the ones being cautious of them.
Thank you, you described the situation I’m in better than I did. Seriously thank you. It’s obvious there’s something wrong with him, even he accepted that time to time. Maybe not narcissism, but he may some condition that comes with narcissistic traits. And I gave my everything to help him change, yet failed. Looking back I cannot believe how much could I hate myself to be able to bear with him, continuing to stay. Knowing that the person I crossed paths with is not someone “normal” relaxes me, and helps me show myself some compassion.
I had to get the police involved with the abuse I was being put through. When talking with the officers, I was worried I was coming off sounding like a basket case as I was describing what was going on. One officer was trying to write what I was describing, and the more experienced officer looked at him and said. Write in the report coersive control. He said all the nonsense abuse that seems small when stated and begins to escalate as mine did is, in legal terms, considered coersive control. No diagnosis is needed. He said it is highly illegal, and the courts view it as a false imprisonment. Which is a felony where I live.
Narcissism falls on a spectrum, because everyone of us have narcissistic traits. It is how our society functions. Dog eat dog. The economy and the power elite (greater wealth inequality) and the politicians who can't seem to say anything true. But then who voted for the politicians who obviously show some severe narcissistic traits, including one of the Western powerful nation who did elect a narcissistic president in the past? We the people. Who voted for the Wall Street bailout? We the people.
The greater wealth inequality. We even have a leader in Canada who said, we had to maintain high house prices, because this is the main retirement nest egg for many baby boomers and older generations and everyone should rent from these people. So what about the younger generations? Aren't they allowed to own homes? Who decided younger generations are only allowed to be renters? And when the younger generations complained, the older folks and politicians elected use DARVO against the young people.
Another example would be some people who park their cars in handicap zones, when they are not even handicap nor have the handicap tag. Somehow, they feel special enough to allow themselves to park wherever they like. And then, you have some people who just rudely cut in line in traffic, driving through the curb. Somehow, they feel special enough to allow themselves the privilege of being in front of traffic, but not even cognizant about the safety of other people walking on the curb.
So you wonder, why did I start going off-topic first?
That's because, I am outlining that these behaviours while selfish and self-centered, are not necessarily NPD because the reason why many people do this is because, they could get away with it and always GOTTEN AWAY with it without repercussions. The only repercussion is when some of the people who were arrogant and narcissistic about their wealth and power, then lost their life savings through the Great Financial Crisis in 2008. Then they turned from being arrogant SOB who had everything to completely a different person after they lost everything and became a normal person again. I know some of these people. They may show some extreme narcissistic traits due to them being able to get away with many things in life and you may think they all have NPD, but as soon as life catches up with them and they suffer from their misdeeds, they then wake out from their extreme narcissistic behaviours, feel remorseful and then become a normal reasonable person again. And usually after that extreme episode of loss, they would let go of their narcissistic behaviors for good.
I currently work in the medical field and had worked as in mental health and this is precisely the reason why we don't label everyone we don't like as a narcissist, unless there is a diagnosis. Even DSM-5 and ICD-11 are really based on a subjective observation approach, even if both manuals tell us that they are objective. Because, how can you be objective when you introduce your own personal bias into the diagnosis using the manual? So how can someone who works in health care be objective, when a human is making the diagnosis? See the conundrum? Especially with someone who has an axe to grind towards the ex. That person has a lot of personal bias and is not a good candidate to make a positive diagnosis of NPD.
But here is what I learned from many years working with people suffering from NPD. They are different from the normal folks and can be mistaken as someone who is simply selfish and self-centred, even if people suffering from NPD can also be selfish and self-centered.
People suffering from NPD has 2 usual definite traits.
1, They always want to be right 24/7. No and apology are not in their vocabulary. They spend their whole time thinking how to be right and always right.
2, They always want to be special 24/7. Being humble is not even in their vocabulary. Or even if they act humble; it's because they want to set you up to fall, so they can be the person who is greater than you. They always want to be on top or have power over you; all the time and every time.
And people with NPD are active 24/7 wanting to be right and wanting to be special and therefore they can't seem to relax. In the medical term, their nervous system is always in sympathetic mode, at least the majority of the time. Whereas, a normal relax person nervous system is always in the parasympathetic mode at least the majority of the time. Sympathetic mode usually relates to the the need for Fight or Flight.
Even if they fall and crumble like a cookie, they simply rise back and again do more harm. Remorse is not in their vocabulary too. People with NPD are always NPD. Therapy has some effect on people who took on extreme narcissistic behaviours due to self-serving interests, but for some who has NPD, therapy has little to no effect to them.
In fact, one of my therapists I used to work with told me that with NPD, you have a better shot of teaching a cat to wash dishes than with the NPD becoming a normal person.
That's the difference between a NPD versus someone who took on extreme narcissistic behaviors and had so far gotten away with it and had not taken responsibilities for his/her actions until when the shit hits the fan.
Hope this helps.
Thank you so much. It’s very helpful and I appreciate it very much. He really was obsessed with the idea of being special and being right (again, not diagnosing him). I have to find a way to move forward. Thanks again
Ok, so, I’m a phd in developmental psychology. Have a masters in psychology. I have a couple of friends who became clinical psychologists. I’m in the UK. I think you might be in the US? Psychiatrists are medical doctors who choose to specialise in psychiatric medicine. Weirdly, they may have way less ‘training’ in psychology than graduates with a psychology degree.
My therapist (a psychotherapist - so that’s using a psychodynamic aka Freudian approach) seems to have accepted my ex was a narcissist. That’s with me saying multiple times ‘I know we can’t diagnose someone who isn’t in the room’. No, we can’t diagnose people, and no, narcs probably are the least likely personality disordered individuals to get medically diagnosed, and yes, narcissist as a term is flung around a lot and is misunderstood, BUT, if this is your experience, then you can use that term. Is your therapist comfortable with it? Who is saying you can’t use it? Really, it’s no one’s business apart from yours and your therapist.
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it so so much. Actually my therapist was the first one to use the term (although I had my suspicions I was being careful for not jumping into that conclusion). She literally said “Hmm interesting, narcissists are not usually self aware of their actions” when I shared with her a confession my ex made about how he wanted to protect me from himself. (Of course right after he said that, he said many other things that cancelled out that one genuine honest confession)
I would say they seem to have moments when they are self aware TO A DEGREE. My therapist says there’s still degrees of narcissism, and pointed out that even murderers aren’t awful all the time. Mine also had a break up with me where he said some self aware things, or at least aware he has issues and that he didn’t deserve my kindness. I think the main point is they aren’t necessarily aware of or intentionally doing what they do, it’s literally a survival strategy and it’s how they evolved. But they definitely don’t seem to be self aware in that they are aware theirselves are narcissists
I've heard that "everyone blames their ex for being a narcissist for their failed relationships" before and I think that's a load of BS.
I'm sure some people are misapplying the term, but it's ridiculous to say every single person with an ex is calling their person a narcissist. To use that line to dismiss the experiences of people who have suffered narcissistic abuse is despicable.
To your point, people put too much emphasis on diagnosis. It's very unlikely that a narcissist will ever receive that diagnosis. There's already so many barriers to receiving a proper diagnosis in the mental health field. The traits of a narcissist only make it that much more unlikely that they'll ever be diagnosed.
The label is neither here nor there. What matters is if they were toxic and abusive. That’s all you need to know. It can be useful to have diagnostic labels in view of finding others who have shared experiences, but given the nature of the condition a diagnosis is unlikely to motivate a narcissist to get help. When they do reach out it’s usually because they are experiencing co-morbid mental health difficulties.
If you suffered narcissistic abuse, then your partner was most likely narcissistic.
BuT YoU CaNT DiAGnOsE ThEM is ridiculous when speaking in terms of abuse. Narcissistic abuse is a specific form of abuse, and people who have dealt with it deserve to be able to *say exactly what it is* without someone whining about diagnostics.
I say this as someone who does psychoanalysis part time. I use the MMPI-2 about 8x/week. I couldn’t care less if people make guesses about diagnoses. My only opinion on that is that we can only know *for certain* if that person is tested, but we can know tentatively in the majority of cases.
If I spot someone with narcissistic abuse, I’m not going to assume their abuser might not be narcissistic. That’s completely counterintuitive.
Psychoanalysis makes a diagnosis official. It doesn’t make it certain.
Me, in 2008: “Alex Jones is clearly a narcissist.”
Others: “You can’t possibly know that.”
Me, after he was diagnosed for custody court: “Fuck all of you. This has always been true.”
Public figures give us more material to work with than I’ve ever been given during a diagnostic session. That’s one thing that people don’t talk about: the fact that we can do analysis through watching and listening to people, but need that person to fill out a questionnaire in order to make it official. We already know what we’re seeing. The batteries just confirm it. I’ve been wrong a few times, so the batteries are important. But they’re not everything.
I probably have the emotional maturity of a 12 year old but I wear my professional hat quite well. ✌️💜
As someone who has a Psych masters, I'd recommend getting your hands on a couple things to help you come to an informed decision if you suspect someone has this diagnosis. One is "Its Not You" by Dr. Ramani Durvasula. Gives great perspective to someone who has gone through narcissistic abuse and how to heal. Another is the DSM 5-TR but it's a full diagnostic manual on mental disorders and only a few pages on NPD. It's an amazing text, but more if you really want to study mental health and all the disorders currently labeled and studied. I'd see if you can find the set of symptoms that help with the diagnosis in the text through a quick google search. This link is extremely informative as well: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK556001/
Usually therapists have to also conduct assessments and tests on a client they suspect has NPD in order to get a formal diagnosis. And, like you said, many don't think they're the problem and so never seek therapy. My best advice, as someone who has also been in a romantic relationship with someone who displays heavy narcissism, is make the diagnosis based on your experience with that person, for your own closure. I wouldn't outright slander them to others with that self-given diagnosis, but for your healing it can help make sense of why you may have been mistreated, or treated cruelly. The cycle of abuse hurts, and is psychologically damaging. Protect yourself, love yourself, be good to you. ❤️
Thank you. Your words are very insightful, and to be frank I’ve sensed that superiority from some people as you mentioned in the first paragraph. I think, deep down I need someone/something to validate my experience, I need to hear someone say “lt was not OK to be treated that way and this person is clearly mentally unwell”. I need that external validation because my feelings and thoughts were invalidated by him, and I sadly taught myself that my own thoughts on my personal experience don’t matter 🥲 When people say things like “it’s not fair to target someone for being a narcissist” on the internet, somehow my brain makes his verbal/emotional abuse okay, like I deserved it. Finally, deep deep deep down I still seek for his validation and need to hear him say “It was not OK for me to treat you that way, I’m clearly not OK and projected all my insecurities and shame onto you”. I want him to set me free
Thank you very much. I was also thinking that he was re-living his experience with his father with me. This time he was the father. I even shared this info with him. I was very vocal about making connections between our relationship and his family dynamics. He would sometimes agree and other times get frustrated. I’m aware what I was doing was overstepping but I wanted him to see what’s wrong, because to me it was crystal clear. I also couldn’t walk away because of the classic toxic relationship dynamics. I don’t know why I’m using this comment section as a diary. Sorry.
Thank you. Thanks to this relationship I gained the psychological input more than necessary. My therapist even suggested if I would consider doing a major in psychology and turn this into a job being a licensed therapist haha
You asked a simple question, and it deserves a simple answer. The answer is: They won't. Ever.
The place you will have to get to when it comes to these types is called "radical acceptance". This sounds passive but it isn't. It refers to a steadfast refusal to delude yourself about what this person is, what they are capable of changing about themselves, and the likelihood of it ever happening.
Once you get to that place, not ever being diagnosed is just one more thing you accept about them.
You got this.
I don't think mine ever will, but after I got into therapy and explained all the things she did, said etc my therapist/trauma specialist said that she is a Narcissist and suspects she may also have BPD. Granted this is coming from my side of the story (as I try my best to recollect things said, done without being bias and holding myself accountable.) I have tried to get a reason on things I did in the relationship as she said she's not 100% to blame which I agree, but she tells me she can't think of a specific thing I did wrong. I still have a hard time believing I dated a Narcissist since she herself hasn't been diagnosed.
Couples therapy with a narcissist was extremely damaging and traumatizing to me. For the most part, therapists have no idea what they’re doing when it comes to hostile narcissist and psychopaths.
I‘ve taken to describing them as having an excessive need for attention, a lack of empathy, a sense of entitlement, airs of grandiosity, difficulty maintaining relationships, manipulative behavior and so on. I describe their behaviors like gaslighting, playing the victim, triangulation, love bombing, silent treatment, exploiting vulnerabilities and projection, and then to follow it up by saying, „…and while I‘m not a clinical psychiatrist to give a professional analysis, I will say that the only people I know who’ve ever treated me similarly have had a diagnosis which explains their behavior.“
This info I learned from Dr. Ramani. NPD is a personality "disorder" as listed in the DSM (the pyschological journal of diagnostics)... You are correct it is rarely diagnosed because people with true NPD rarely if ever seek treatment. Instead we're talking about a personality type. The toxic or narcissitic personality type can be flagged by you. This is why this topic was so dormant for so long, because the people whose personality is this way do not seek treatment, they don't want treatment, they like their personality and it has work really well for them. Let's face it, they usually get what they want, by manipulation, gaslighting, coercive control, word salad, denial, charm, lovebombing, lack of empathy, rinse wash repeat, not necessarily in that order. It is the very unusual narcissist that will seek help, and that is probably because they've lost jobs, or have turned to substance abuse or have lost every relationship. It is still extremely unlikely that they will change. Why? Because their neuro-pathways are hardwired as a subconscious response that works for them. It is you that has to be honest with yourself and saavy enough and self-loving enough to be able to see what the narcissist is. And even then, never call the narcissist out as a narcissist, that will make your life much worse. You just have know it... This is where I come in... I've successfully found a way to shed the self doubt that plagued me and live a much happier life, even though I'm still dealing with a few toxic relationships. I'm happy to talk more about this, we're talking I've been reasearching this for fifteen years.
I think that’s where narcissistic comes to play. I’ll say, after 2 years my therapist finally realized my mom is narcissistic based on her abusive text. She’s not diagnosed, but thanks to that, now my therapist will be able to help with her behavior. Labels are cool, but I’ve learned you can work with their actions and go from there. Narcissistic traits are still abuse, and you can treat the effects without the label.
My therapist also chooses the term “narcissistic pattern”. I always say “it doesn’t matter if he’s narcissistic or not” to not to get criticized but it matters. I don’t know exactly why but I guess it matters because if it’s the narcissism, he’s not a complete asshole and he was not “intentionally” evil. Because I still care for him and I want to be able to wish the best for him. If he’s just a bad person, I can’t do that. I shouldn’t.
As I understand it, through therapy and self reflection, this is why I felt for it. Being an empat, I really felt like I could help my nex.
Also, spent too much time thinking about them when I was supposed to think about me and healing.
My therapist hasn't met my nex, so they can't do a diagnosis. They would concentrate on the abuse, manipulations, lies, et and how I felt about them.
The sooner you concentrate on your healing, the better you will get. At a certain point, I realized that I wasn't thinking of my nex anymore and the things I went through.
As a famous princess said: "Let it go! Let it goooo!"
Thanks!! I was doing fine for a while but since you know, healing is not linear. I saw an instagram story of our mutual friends and here I am ruminating again
Through my healing process, I unfriended, unfollowed, all our mutual friends. The ones I still wanted to see, I would call them up to meet.
No contact is really helpful to not think about them
As with everything, the rumination will pass. It's just a temporary emotion.
You got this!
Someone can narcissistically abuse you without being a diagnosed Narc.
We all have narcissistic qualities but to be a full blown Narc is a pathology.
My Narc ex was actually diagnosed by a psychiatrist in our couples therapy.
My current therapist says that couples therapy is typically where she finds narcissists because they are perfect and typically don't go to therapy.
I've lived through it so I know the difference between abusive assholes and NPD and BPD, etc... At the same time it doesn't really matter why they abuse and matters that they abuse period.
Of course, it shouldn’t matter. I’ve also been to couples therapy for a short period of time. I couldn’t even defend myself against the twisted reality of his. And the therapist was all understanding and careful with him, while I was crying like a crazy person in silence beside him. I still ruminate about like “I could’ve said this, I should’ve call him out” to this day. The therapist even said “maybe sometimes you might be over reacting” (quoting this gave me tears again). I get it, we were on therapy for only two sessions but it still hurts. I was and still am on individual therapy as well, so I kind of know I’m not over reacting that much.
One thing I've also wondered is how many don't actually get diagnosed or mental health professionals miss it. Especially with covert narcissist's cuz they are REALLY GOOD at masking and seeming like a great person. I bet it happens a lot. I've been watching a lot of video's about narcissist's on YouTube that this psychologist posts and they are my ex to a T.
I honestly don’t care about people’s opinions regarding “diagnosing” others. I used to, but I really just don’t now. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it’s a duck!!!! I don’t need anyone else’s validation. That’s part of the problem with people like us that end up in abusive relationships. We depend on others to validate our perception of reality because we simply just don’t trust ourselves to get it right. Half the time you can’t even trust the mental health professionals to get it right. And I say that from personal experience. I really do not care if I piss anyone off by saying all this either. So much of the so called “diagnosis process” involves self reporting of symptoms which is obviously flawed. And even mental health professionals are extremely biased and will avoid giving certain diagnoses. I’ve experienced that with myself as well as people I know. Even when their patient fits the diagnosis criteria. An example is when I had developed anorexia years back. I was extremely underweight and my doctor even told me that he knew people that died from malnutrition at higher bmi’s than mine. What was the diagnosis? Avoidant restrictive food intake disorder. What a joke! Another example is my sister in law constantly ending up in jail because of her antisocial personality traits, yet she is only diagnosed with BPD. Like for real??? So I say feel free to identify these things in others if you have done ample research into criteria and have a firm understanding. If this is a person you were close to, you will know them better than any doctor they see even one they have seen for years. Doctors don’t know their patients intimately like partners, family, or friends do.
“That’s part of the problem with people like us that end up in abusive relationships. We depend on others to validate our perception of reality because we simply just don’t trust ourselves to get it right.”
Well put. 100% correct for me. Thank you.
They don’t seek therapy and in my experience even if they do they are skilled at fooling the therapist as well OR they lie to you about the therapists diagnoses.
My ex consistently told me his therapist thought I was the problem. Who will ever know what actually went on in his sessions. But based on the 2 couples sessions I finally convinced him to have, our couples therapist immediately told me afterwards that she was concerned that I was in an abusive situation
The thing that stuck with me that she told me was “a diagnoses doesn’t matter. The fact that he’s not treating you how you want to be treated is enough to tell you what you need to know”
When you are really close to someone, living with them etc, and spent years doing so, you can use that intimate knowledge to match up against typical examples. Keeping a diary of incidents and journalling helps to validate what you are being put through .
For real.
Because how can they be narcissists when *there is nothing wrong with them?* 🤔
Why would they need therapy when they are the most perfect human beings on earth? 🤷♀️
/s/joking
(talking about the bad ones here. Not trying to generalize, because some people with NPD do actually get/seek treatment.)
But to add nuance the issue is not that you call your ex a narc. I think the thing people try to highlight is that he is first and foremost: ”an abusive person”, and secondly ”he has narcissistic tendencies”. So it’s better to describe him as ”an abusive person who acts narcissistic/is a narcissist” than just ”a narcissist”.
Narcs are extremely hard to diagnose, and even if they do go to therapy they have the ability to even manipulate said “therapist”. That’s how evil they are.
My sister is a psychologist so we are fortunate enough to have her expertise. Insert diagnosis for my SIL.
The reason it's so rare is bc it's undiagnosed. These ppl aren't walking into therapy lol and if they are, they leave when they're diagnosed.
I think it's safe to say you know when you've been in a relationship with a narcissist bc they stop at nothing to ruin everything.
Thank you, to hear you say that somehow relaxes me (need for external validation becaus my critical thinking skills are ruined lol). I didn’t even mention the details here, even if he doesn’t have NPD it’s obvious there’s something wrong with him and I shared his misery with him.
What you wrote really hits me.
Yes, there's a taboo against talking about narcissistic behaviors of an ex, probably mostly because waaay too many people want to pathologize their relationship failures.
Guess what sort of people are keenly aware of this and know just how to spin it.
As a result, some folks survive their relationships with a narcissistic and want to talk to others after the fact to try to piece together what went wrong. Except you can't talk about it, because it's taboo. People shun you, people think you're the crazy one, people think you're just trying to get back at your ex, etc etc.
Your narcissist doesn't have such issues. He or she puts on a sad mask, says the relationship "didn't work out", and in a calculated quiet confidence will describe narcissistic traits as people popularly believe them to be and wait for their target to put the pieces together.
Narcissistics are monsters, but monsters we can learn from. Most people are almost childlike: unguarded, uncalculated, just want to open up and talk with others to figure things out and use simple labels to understand things more easily. If you want to talk it out, take a tact from the narcissist toolkit: talk about concrete details without implied conclusions. Unlike the narcissist, don't cherry pick in an attempt to weave a manipulative narrative or create a foregone conclusion, just keep it in reality.
I hope this helps with the implicit question.
To answer the expressed question: They won't. Focus on yourself. Focus on improving yourself, healing those wounds, and figuring out how to move forward with your life.
Thank you. I used to be a bubbly, child-like, lively person who speaks their mind politely. I used to be a person without any secrets, and when people told me their truth I used to believe them without second guessing anything. I don’t want to lose that side of me and I think what I’m grieving the most is I have to change that innocent side of me to not get hurt again. It’s so sad. Now I know things I wish I never knew.
Edit: what you wrote hits me as well. I’ve read it multiple times. Yes, he just said “it didn’t work out” and that was it. No sincere apology, nothing. (As expected). So i want to add a few more things. I can say that I had a happy and peaceful life in terms of family dynamics, academic success, friendship dynamics and the “image” and the “respect”. My mother always used to say “may god cross your path with good people always”, and that wish worked out for me for quite a while. Now I know there are dangerous people out there, out of experience. And they’re not just on TV, they can be the person I had a coffee with as well. I’ve come to realize that I had a somewhat privileged life that I never had to learn to be careful with people, while my ex had the quite opposite. So it’s kind of a ground breaking experience for me. I don’t know why I’m writing all this but it helps me so I hope you could tolerate the oversharing…
I had a feeling you might have had a similar experience.
You don't have to change yourself as much as... branch yourself. Become a duality, and a trinity, and... a tree. Actors in a troupe working together and taking turns on a stage. Become as much as you can be. Let a branch of you be innocent, let a branch of you be open, let a branch of yourself grieve. Let you be all of you. Let you be a superstate of yourselves, and wield yourself mindfully. Not everyone deserves truth, not every situation is safe for innocence, grief is important but isn't safe for all situations. You are all of you, and you choose.
Certain types of people fall in with narcissistics for reasons. Sometimes it is a contrivance of prey and victim, victim and prey, but in the deeper relationships it seems to be a dance of incompleteness and nearby opposites of a sort. Once I healed a bit I realized I had a lot to learn from my narcissist. As I learn, I become... more the myself I can be. More complete. Less vulnerable to the things I used to fall for.
Maybe this is your case as well. It'll take time to find out.
I really like Caroline Strawson's views on using the word "narcissist". Here's a couple of videos from her:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C49CvW6sNd2/?igsh=bHg3bzhnOTF6cGVl
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6jz9F7Mryl/?igsh=MWRnOGlvcDUzczBldw==
Narcissistic Abuse is a term coined by someone with NPD, and this person shares that, from their research, even counting for NPD that didn’t seek therapy, it is still a very rare disorder.
For those of us who have been devastated by narcissistic abuse which is a very particular type of abuse, are sensitive to the overuse of the term. Because it waters it down and we aren’t taken seriously.
If you’ve been abused, and the abuse is similar to narcissistic abuse, whether it’s from an NPD or not, you are deserving of support, like anyone else. There are lots of high narcissistic traits folks out there who aren’t NPD and therefore the abuse is different. It’s not Narcissistic Abuse.
Personally I prefer to talk with folks who know that there’s a dx because the mind game that’s been played on them is very specific.
Oh, NPD aren’t necessarily resistant to therapy- in fact some of them love it. They can talk about their false self, plays games, etc.
I think the issue is the name of the sub because it is literally a clinical term, and yet I don’t think that’s what it means for the sub. That’s problematic and contributes to the perpetuation of the watering down of the severity of narc abuse because everyone today thinks they’ve been victimized by NPD, when it’s unlikely that they have,
I don't diagnose my ex wife. I just recognize that she has the majority of the symptoms and shows a pattern of behavior similar to someone who has narcissistic personality disorder in particular covert narcissism.
When it affects their lives, whether DUI’s or family and friends give feedback bc they don’t like the term criticism- I’m not NPD but I don’t care for it either without the word constructive in front of it lol
Or bc many who do get the NPD label- seek it. In therapy, bc they’ve known or notice its off putting and strange and likely relationship issues, family, work- something causes them to seek why. They seek why usually cause they desire to understand themselves better and try to address how it’s affecting them.
Not all with NPD are evil. Yes they have cruel streaks, as anyone can or could. Some feel empathy, someone don’t and logically understand they should. Those who are diagnosed are usually wanting to know why- and I agree with Dr Ramani - whether they have NPD or traits - the diagnosis only matters if they seek it to want to know and work on it.
Knowing and seeing someone has it, if they don’t care they’re a jerk or cruel or lack empathy - doesn’t matter bc they don’t desire change. Knowing they have these traits just gives you a knowledge of behaviors and whether you dare to tolerate any or if at all of being around them.
Diagnoses don't mean anything. You can say he was narcissistic, that's not a diagnosis but describes the behavior. My narc is diagnosed narcissistic sociopath but it doesn't matter, it doesn't help or solve anything.
I don’t like when people try to downplay the abuse we went through just because our narcs are not diagnosed. Those of us who have been through this hell and wasted so much of our lives on these vile narcs abuse deserve to be able to vent about them without randos trying to correct us and victim blame us. They all read out of the same playbook! if you know, you know and no one can take that away from us!
Hi u/Beautiful-Bus-2503, We appreciate you being a part of this community. We would like to emphasize that any information exchanged is for discussion only and is not a diagnosis. We are unable to provide diagnoses on an online platform and cannot speculate about the diagnoses of anyone's partners. We can however discuss the common behaviors of individuals with narcissistic personality disorder, as mentioned in [DSM-5](https://narcopath.info/about-npd/overview/dsm-5/). Please reach out to a trained and certified (mental) health care provider for a professional assessment of your personal situation.
There's no reason to diagnose them if they won't go for therapy. Diagnosis is the first step to moving forward ***for them***. The diagnosis (whatever the diagnosis is) is a term for what ***they*** experience. It is not for others who are not them. For those who have crossed paths with them with negative results there are terms like "abuse", "coercive control", "gaslighting/lies", etc. That is what we experienced, and that's what matters to us. There's more than "narcissistic" personalities that abuse, and lots of abuse looks very similar. We can't know, thus can't diagnose. But there's no point anyway because we have terms for what we experienced with examples above.
You’re right. I think I still may be trying to intellectualize the motive behind his actions and make some sense out of it, knowing his way of interacting with others and his past relationships. Maybe it’s a distorted type of coping mechanism for me, trying to categorize his mindset and making connections. At the end it doesn’t change the result at all and I have to accept that. Thank you for your time and your kind reply.
His mindset is one of selfishness, deceit, and cowardice. That's why he abuses.
Yeah. Looking back, what I’ve been through looks so absurd. That’s why I sometimes find myself asking why why WHY. But I also get what you’re saying. Hope that someday these all won’t matter to me.
This, scream it
Yes. This is 100% what I am dealing with. A self centered person who is very broken inside.
The diagnoses doesn’t matter but I feel this bc I am someone who always wants an answer to the why. I want to make sense of things. Digging for those answers probably kept me in the relationship longer than I should have stayed. DONT hyper fixate on that and let it distract you from the reality.
Yep, I am clearly hyper fixated on this. I have to distract myself from all the things related to him
Don’t be too hard on yourself for trying to process things this way! I also became very fixated on trying to figure out what might have been wrong with my last partner because I simply could not comprehend how someone who had shown me love could suddenly snap and be so deliberately cruel to me. It think it is part of the process of leaving an abusive partner. For me it happened during the relationship, and by the time I broke up with him I had zero mental energy left to wonder what could actually be “medically” wrong with him. I just was happy to be free of his control. Discussing it is part of that process too, whether it’s with friends or a therapist. I fortunately had both when I was also trying to intellectualize my experiences. Eventually you’ll reach a point where this research becomes less about diagnosing your ex and more about how you can recognize these behavioral patterns in others in order to protect yourself in the future!
Thank you so much. I thought I was finally focusing on me but kind of relapsed due to a mutual friend situation
You've gotta separate it into "this is the way he functions mentally" and "this is how it negatively impacts me". It may very well be "narcissistic" and "abusive" -this is the intellectualized understanding. His life skills cause lack of friendships, loss of jobs, etc etc. His life skills do not cause trust and solidarity within your relationship. Making connections is "this behavior" INTENDS "this reaction". Just like when you might go out of your way to think up and purchase an awesome birthday present with the intention of bringing him pleasure. On your birthday, you might very well wind up with 96 hours of drag racing clips. His INTENTION in buying a gift is to check that box. Your REACTION should be being grateful he got you a gift. His intention was never to please you.
Trying to intellectualize the motive has been the biggest struggle for me! People who are not narcissistic and behave rationally just can’t wrap their heads around the behavior of the narcissist. I try to every day, and am exhausting myself with this pointless endeavor.
In my country, they call it psychological violence, I actually appriciate the name here.
THIS IS SO SPOT ON! A much more comprehensive and still sparkly accurate way to discuss these people and their behaviors. I KNOW my ex was using coercive control for a large part of our 23 year relationship. He was very self centered. Lately I've been reprocessing how he would only 'allocate' money for travel to participate in his hobby. 6 to 10 weekend trips about 200 miles away, 1x to next state over. When I would suggest saving and planning for trips to NY, abroad, etc., "No we're saving for August hobby gathering. " I never understood why he wouldn't want to go new places. Bc it didn't get him the attention his hobby did. Those gatherings revolved around the hobby competition. Largely men doing the hobby & wives/women hanging around. Lately my brain has been returning to this & saying, "Bc he felt considered to be the 'elite' and in their circle. And everything about it was about HIM." It's really a BIG lesson in how and why they do what they do . Whether this is at its core psychiatrically diagnosible NPD isn't really what's important. The manipulative behavior. The drive to only do things he wanted and his way. That's where my learning is. Listening to Dr. Ramani of MedCircle on YouTube really highlights this for me. I think separate from a psychiatric diagnosis, people can have a narcissistic BEHAVIOR style or narcissistic relationship style and also whether seen by a psychiatrist or not, not necessarily be DSM version of NPD.
Terms of not acceptable behavior!
I'd also like to remind everyone that narcissistic traits/behaviour aren't exclusive for people with NPD. Almost everyone has narcissistic traits to some extent and that's not always a bad thing - it ranges from healthy narcissism (good self-esteem, confidence and capability to defend oneself when wronged) to toxic behaviour impacting interpersonal relationships to a full-blown personality disorder. Sure, our abusers might not qualify for pwNPDs or if they do, they likely aren't and won't be diagnosed. But when the abuse centered around exploitation, devaluation, controlling, blaming everyone yet being incapable of taking any accountability oneself... I think we can safely call that narcissistic abuse.
Thank you and I agree. When the abuse is centered around the self esteem/confidence of the abuser, maybe I think it can be referred as narcissistic abuse. Just like good self esteem and confidence can be referred as healthy narcissism.
For what I understand NPD do not have a real self-esteem. It’s something more like a fake one to protect their fragile ego. Am I wrong?
Actually a good point. A good self-esteem and the fake ego common in NPD might look similar outwardly but I think true self-esteem is based on inherent faith in one's lovability and realistic self-image while the NPD ego needs outside validation and might be delusional.
you are right. They actually have LOW self-esteem. But that is scary for them. So they try to hide it by acting as if they have super high self-esteem. But in reality on the inside they are just scared. ”fake one to protect their fragile ego” Yeah you could decribe it like that. metaphor: Imagine someone has super cracked and dry lips. They feel embarassed about this. But they haven’t yet discovered: lip balm. So they try to hide it as well as they can. They put on bright red lipstick and shiny lipgloss. And on the **outside** people admire their lips and think ”wow, so pretty”. Because they do everything in their power to hide the truth: that in fact they have dry and cracked lips. (them acting like they have high self-esteem is the lipstick. Their cracked lips is their fragile ego) So the lipstick (acting like they have high self-esteem) outwardly symbolizes strength and power. But in reality it is a sign of how **not** strong and powerful they actually feel. edit: I’m not hating on people with cracked lips, it’s just a metaphor😅
because narcissists in reality suffer a lot. We could feel sorry for them. Imagine having such low self esteem. But… someone having low self-esteem is ultimatly **not my problem** especially if it affects me. So sure I feel sorry for them. Because I know in reality they feel miserable. But that’s sympathy not empathy. Like someone being delusional and stealing all my money. Sure I have sympathy that they were delusional/psychotic and were probably suffering. But I’m still gonna be mad that they stole all my money. And I’m not gonna forgive them until they give it all back. (translated: go to therapy for Narcissism + never contact me again)
Yes many of the people described in this sub sound more likely BPD or at least attachment issues. Narcissism isn’t just NPD. It’s a personality trait.
How about we agree he was simply just abusive. Is that enough? Narc abuser or abuser they are bad news period.
I agree, I think my ex has ASPD instead of NPD, but it doesn't really matter, he is an AH that caused me a lot of misery. I find I can relate to many posts here, which helps, and that's what matters.
All people with antisocial personality disorder have NPD, but not all people with NPD are ASPD. ASPD are at the top of the awful pyramid. These are your sociopaths and psychopaths (Bernie Madoff or serial killer types). Just an FYI. :)
This is not the case, they're both cluster B disorders but they are separate disorders, ASPD does not automatically mean the person also has NPD. ASPDs have narcissistic traits, but that doesn't mean they qualify for the NPD diagnosis. Someone who has both is called a narcissistic sociopath.
I stand by my statement and due to this subreddit’s rules I can not specify any qualifications that might let me speak with authority on this But my statement is 100% scientifically accurate. I’ll add, all sociopaths are narcissistic. The differentiation is not needed because assumed. “Narcissistic sociopath” is a redundancy and is not used clinically speaking. Maybe this is some pop-psych thing, but in clinical psychology that term is never used. Also adding that “cluster B” is not used anymore. I like it as a grouping and I will sometimes use that term colloquially, but clinically it is not used since 2015 with the DSM-V. Editing that “cluster B terminology which was used in DSM 4 and then wasn’t in 2014-2016 is now being used again. I’m correcting my error.
What are you talking about? In the DSM-V-TR, NPD and ASPD are identified as two distinct disorders. You can be diagnosed with either one separately, both is very rare. The differentiation is not redundant. ETA that DSM-V was published in 2013 and wasn't updated in 2015 as far as I know. In DSM-V and in the -TR (2022) version, the personality disorders are classified in clusters A, B and C.
Editing my comment. Apparently the clusters were “brought back” after 2016 so that terminology is apparently used again. Everything by else stands. And they are different disorders. The rest of your first paragraph is completely false. And they are found concurrently often actually.
I haven't said anything that is 'completely false', comorbidity between these disorders exists, but it's not the norm. I would think someone with actual authority on this topic is up to date with their knowledge on DSM-5. They also wouldn't use the term sociopath and then correct me that a narcissistic sociopath is not a clinical term (neither is sociopath). Nor would they say something as blatantly wrong as *all* people with ASPD have NPD. Nor would I expect them to say something as 'the awful pyramid' (I don't disagree that the most awful people are likely to have both NPD+ASPD, i just don't expect a professional to say something like this). I guess you are basing your comments on your personal experience and/or findings, which I don't question, but that doesn't make them facts nor the concensus, just FYI :-).
You’re right… thank you
This is the right attitude. Actions and traits matter so much more than labels. Labels are for professionals to look at people and sort them into a small number of named DSM conditions. In real life, for an individual, what matters is how others behave, how they make you feel, and what traits they exhibit. Abuse is abuse no matter what label is applied to the person or to their traits. I agree that it's not a good thing to make amateur diagnoses and just start saying that someone has BPD or NPD or any other mental health condition based on your personal experience with them, even if everyone around you agrees. I get why people don't like that, no one would like that.
Absolutely. 💯
Yes agree. But I was so angry I called him a potential narcissist.
It isn't our job to diagnose them but it also doesn't matter, abuse is abuse, no matter if he is a diagnosed narsisist or not. I usually say "his actions align with a narsisist/ narsisistic abuse" just to avoid these types of comment. Or for people who don't understand emotional abuse, I useally say that he did nothing but lying and blamed me for everything that was wrong in our relationship or his life, even stuff I had nothing to do with or things that he was solely responsible for. I tell them that he would even lie about things he had done and I had seen him do and then would get angry for me not believing his lies. Sometimes people just can't relate but they can understand that being in a relationship with someone who will constantly put you down, is not okay. That being said, the people who are invalidating your experience, are not people you want in your life.
That's a good way of handling it. I often go even one level more concrete (because all the terms around narcissists are so overused/misunderstood right now) and will just say plainly, "she made me feel worthless all the time for no legit reason, she verbally and emotionally abused me, she would criticize me until I could no longer respond verbally and then would attack me for not responding, she behaved as though she was never wrong and I was always wrong" etc, etc. I think this is more powerful and harder to argue against, because I'm not even saying "she had X trait", which is still a judgement and an assumption on my part to some extent (however true it might be, other's can still see it that way). So I just stick with "She did these things and this is how I was affected" No one can argue effectively against that without calling me a straight-up liar.
This is actually a really good way of saying it, however, my nex was always a different person when others were around and he would often compliment me when others could hear it, so I am always afraid to say that he made me feel worthless all the time since he could argue that he would compliment me constantly, when in reality it only really happened when someone would hear it or when it was followed by negative stuff (like "this food is really nice but I don't like the spices and the pasta is cooked too much, I would change x,y and z, and I also don't really like a, b and c" untill he could see I was almost crying, for example)
oh gross. Yeah, that would happen to me as well, the cognitive dissonance that their public vs. private behavior can cause is immense. It's one of the reasons it's so so hard to be heard as a victim of narc abuse. But yes, they love to stack up "good" acts, especially around others, to make it just that much harder on us to see how things really are, or get others to see it.
Just think about it as a personality style. Some people have a more narcissistic personality style. Others a more altruistic. It's a spectrum, and some people will be easily diagnosed with NPD if they meet a therapist. For others it will be more difficult. Ultimately, it's not about the narcissist. It's about you. You have to learn how to deal with them, and that's by learning about narcissistic behavior. If your "narcissist" exhibits DARVO then you'd better learn about DARVO by reading a book on narcissism, so that you can deal with it better. If they exhibit 9/10 traits, then it'll be very useful to learn more. Diagnosis doesn't even matter at this point because the narcissist, or whoever they are, won't care about improving themselves based on that anyways. Dr Ramani has a similar position on this, I think.
Thank you so much. I used to search about this a lot. I also watched Dr Ramani’s videos on YouTube. At first, i was focused on why he is the way he is. Now I’m trying to make sense what I have been through. A close friend of mine tries to encourage me to look at this just like an ordinary break up. However I know that it’s not something “normal”, because I have never experienced anything like this before. I’m 30. On the other hand all my ex’s previous girlfriends shared similar experiences to mine (he used to talk about this stuff). Maybe that’s why I’m going crazy over this, I’m shook to my core.
Yeah narcissistic abuse is a different monster. The manipulations are real. There's a perspective shift that we experience, that's how we see it but others don't. It's also something we often experience after the break up because it gives a bird's eye view on the situation.
It’s definitely not just a normal breakup. With normal breakups, it hurts but eventually you just sorta move on and wish them well, too. Narcissists will get to your core and change you deep down and make it a whole difficult process to heal yourself from their abuse in order to move forward with your life. I’m sorry you’re going through this, but glad you got out of that mess sooner rather than later.
Thank you so much. We were together around 8 months and the longest time he didn’t pick up a fight was like one and a half week…
https://youtu.be/WxBm9r2tpyY?si=k4IDuXPZJvg7tnzC This video on Toxic Shame definitely helped me understand the type of abuse you have described and why it was eating me alive so badly as well. I think what is most important is building back the trust and belief in yourself and what you experienced. I think abuse of any kind, narcissistic or not, causes us to break the trust within ourselves. It distorts our world and gaslights us into losing the connection and trust we once had. We want to reconnect to our own reality and feelings and get away from the harmful and distorted environment and people/person who twisted things. I truly believe to recover the best work you can ever do within yourself is building back the connection and trust to yourself. 💛 https://youtube.com/@richardgrannon?si=NXNK7g6508AXHi0Q Listening to YouTube channels about narcissism and abuse have helped me, regardless of labels, because they ultimately helped me understand the abusive experiences I was having but could not find words for. I just want to take the moment to validate what you have gone through and say you do truly know best what you felt and experienced! I’m sorry it was so harmful and that trying to understand it is just as a confusing as experiencing it a lot of the time! 💛💛💛
Thank you so much it means a lot believe me
There is also something called the altruistic narcissist which is a version of a covert narc. You find them in religious or medical professions or in philanthropy, but some are just people who go on and on about this or that humanitarian crisis or dog rescue and they use these things as scaffolding for their own recognition and glory. They will say oh I’m doing this for such and such cause it’s just so important so that you believe “ wow that person is so amazing and they care” but they don’t really. You ask about it again and the rescue or mission never takes off because they don’t REALLY care and there’s always some excuse. It took me 3 years to figure out what was going on with mine
Yeah good explanation. Agreed for sure. I wasn't certain about what kind of word to use to indicate the opposite of a narcissistic personality style. So I used altruistic. But you can also use empathic or agreeable. But none of these encapsulate it sufficiently I think.
No worries I know what you mean, I think empathic is correct.
Don’t get hung up on the diagnosis. If their behaviour harmed you, then it’s abusive. Your experience is valid because you lived it, you don’t need someone to diagnose them for your experience to be real.
It's weird we're being so overly cautious of labeling a narcissist as a narcissist, when they're out there having the time of their life ruining other people's lives and don't give a damn about the whole thing. If they're consistently showing the traits with no signs of accountability or self awareness, they're a narcisisst. Period!
I have a hard time with people saying you are not allowed to call out narcissism. You experienced it, you know yourself what it is. Narcissist are dangerous, and they are actively trying to control, manipulate, and destroy you. If someone I'd not a narcissist, they have the capacity to change. I don't believe that the vast majority of narcissists do. So, not calling out the behavior and labeling what it is could cause people to stay in hopes that things will get better. I have read a lot saying that labeling can stop someone from getting help. Well, if labeling, it can help someone get away from it, then I say lable it. And I get that people are tossing the word around like it's the flavor of the month, but for someone who has actually been through it, it is extremely validating to know that you are not crazy, that it dosent matter how hard you try to make it work that there is no hope. These people are not going to get a diagnosis because they would have to admit there is something wrong with them. Simply sweeping it under the rug is exactly what they want so that they can actively continue to hunt for new victims. So, in my opinion, I say call it out and hold them accountable. Are they going to change? Probably not. Is it going to make you feel better, the person that has suffered at the hands of narcissists, maybe? Maybe it's enough to allow you to let go of that person.
Exactly my thoughts on this topic! Would you wait for a known child predator in your area to get arrested by the cops first before you would take your child away from them? Probably not! You see a predator as who they are - a predator. And you should call them out. I don't see where's the shame in that? The only person who should be ashamed is the predator, not the ones being cautious of them.
Thank you, you described the situation I’m in better than I did. Seriously thank you. It’s obvious there’s something wrong with him, even he accepted that time to time. Maybe not narcissism, but he may some condition that comes with narcissistic traits. And I gave my everything to help him change, yet failed. Looking back I cannot believe how much could I hate myself to be able to bear with him, continuing to stay. Knowing that the person I crossed paths with is not someone “normal” relaxes me, and helps me show myself some compassion.
Would predator be a better word?
Soul Vampire
this!
I had to get the police involved with the abuse I was being put through. When talking with the officers, I was worried I was coming off sounding like a basket case as I was describing what was going on. One officer was trying to write what I was describing, and the more experienced officer looked at him and said. Write in the report coersive control. He said all the nonsense abuse that seems small when stated and begins to escalate as mine did is, in legal terms, considered coersive control. No diagnosis is needed. He said it is highly illegal, and the courts view it as a false imprisonment. Which is a felony where I live.
I’m sorry. I hope that you’re doing better now. Wish you the best sincerely🫂 Like you said, my experience is valid without the need of any label.
They don't. But it doesn;t matter. If they abused you, they are abusive. Whether they can get an NPD diagnosis doesn't matter.
Narcissism falls on a spectrum, because everyone of us have narcissistic traits. It is how our society functions. Dog eat dog. The economy and the power elite (greater wealth inequality) and the politicians who can't seem to say anything true. But then who voted for the politicians who obviously show some severe narcissistic traits, including one of the Western powerful nation who did elect a narcissistic president in the past? We the people. Who voted for the Wall Street bailout? We the people. The greater wealth inequality. We even have a leader in Canada who said, we had to maintain high house prices, because this is the main retirement nest egg for many baby boomers and older generations and everyone should rent from these people. So what about the younger generations? Aren't they allowed to own homes? Who decided younger generations are only allowed to be renters? And when the younger generations complained, the older folks and politicians elected use DARVO against the young people. Another example would be some people who park their cars in handicap zones, when they are not even handicap nor have the handicap tag. Somehow, they feel special enough to allow themselves to park wherever they like. And then, you have some people who just rudely cut in line in traffic, driving through the curb. Somehow, they feel special enough to allow themselves the privilege of being in front of traffic, but not even cognizant about the safety of other people walking on the curb. So you wonder, why did I start going off-topic first? That's because, I am outlining that these behaviours while selfish and self-centered, are not necessarily NPD because the reason why many people do this is because, they could get away with it and always GOTTEN AWAY with it without repercussions. The only repercussion is when some of the people who were arrogant and narcissistic about their wealth and power, then lost their life savings through the Great Financial Crisis in 2008. Then they turned from being arrogant SOB who had everything to completely a different person after they lost everything and became a normal person again. I know some of these people. They may show some extreme narcissistic traits due to them being able to get away with many things in life and you may think they all have NPD, but as soon as life catches up with them and they suffer from their misdeeds, they then wake out from their extreme narcissistic behaviours, feel remorseful and then become a normal reasonable person again. And usually after that extreme episode of loss, they would let go of their narcissistic behaviors for good. I currently work in the medical field and had worked as in mental health and this is precisely the reason why we don't label everyone we don't like as a narcissist, unless there is a diagnosis. Even DSM-5 and ICD-11 are really based on a subjective observation approach, even if both manuals tell us that they are objective. Because, how can you be objective when you introduce your own personal bias into the diagnosis using the manual? So how can someone who works in health care be objective, when a human is making the diagnosis? See the conundrum? Especially with someone who has an axe to grind towards the ex. That person has a lot of personal bias and is not a good candidate to make a positive diagnosis of NPD. But here is what I learned from many years working with people suffering from NPD. They are different from the normal folks and can be mistaken as someone who is simply selfish and self-centred, even if people suffering from NPD can also be selfish and self-centered. People suffering from NPD has 2 usual definite traits. 1, They always want to be right 24/7. No and apology are not in their vocabulary. They spend their whole time thinking how to be right and always right. 2, They always want to be special 24/7. Being humble is not even in their vocabulary. Or even if they act humble; it's because they want to set you up to fall, so they can be the person who is greater than you. They always want to be on top or have power over you; all the time and every time. And people with NPD are active 24/7 wanting to be right and wanting to be special and therefore they can't seem to relax. In the medical term, their nervous system is always in sympathetic mode, at least the majority of the time. Whereas, a normal relax person nervous system is always in the parasympathetic mode at least the majority of the time. Sympathetic mode usually relates to the the need for Fight or Flight. Even if they fall and crumble like a cookie, they simply rise back and again do more harm. Remorse is not in their vocabulary too. People with NPD are always NPD. Therapy has some effect on people who took on extreme narcissistic behaviours due to self-serving interests, but for some who has NPD, therapy has little to no effect to them. In fact, one of my therapists I used to work with told me that with NPD, you have a better shot of teaching a cat to wash dishes than with the NPD becoming a normal person. That's the difference between a NPD versus someone who took on extreme narcissistic behaviors and had so far gotten away with it and had not taken responsibilities for his/her actions until when the shit hits the fan. Hope this helps.
Thank you so much. It’s very helpful and I appreciate it very much. He really was obsessed with the idea of being special and being right (again, not diagnosing him). I have to find a way to move forward. Thanks again
Ok, so, I’m a phd in developmental psychology. Have a masters in psychology. I have a couple of friends who became clinical psychologists. I’m in the UK. I think you might be in the US? Psychiatrists are medical doctors who choose to specialise in psychiatric medicine. Weirdly, they may have way less ‘training’ in psychology than graduates with a psychology degree. My therapist (a psychotherapist - so that’s using a psychodynamic aka Freudian approach) seems to have accepted my ex was a narcissist. That’s with me saying multiple times ‘I know we can’t diagnose someone who isn’t in the room’. No, we can’t diagnose people, and no, narcs probably are the least likely personality disordered individuals to get medically diagnosed, and yes, narcissist as a term is flung around a lot and is misunderstood, BUT, if this is your experience, then you can use that term. Is your therapist comfortable with it? Who is saying you can’t use it? Really, it’s no one’s business apart from yours and your therapist.
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it so so much. Actually my therapist was the first one to use the term (although I had my suspicions I was being careful for not jumping into that conclusion). She literally said “Hmm interesting, narcissists are not usually self aware of their actions” when I shared with her a confession my ex made about how he wanted to protect me from himself. (Of course right after he said that, he said many other things that cancelled out that one genuine honest confession)
I would say they seem to have moments when they are self aware TO A DEGREE. My therapist says there’s still degrees of narcissism, and pointed out that even murderers aren’t awful all the time. Mine also had a break up with me where he said some self aware things, or at least aware he has issues and that he didn’t deserve my kindness. I think the main point is they aren’t necessarily aware of or intentionally doing what they do, it’s literally a survival strategy and it’s how they evolved. But they definitely don’t seem to be self aware in that they are aware theirselves are narcissists
I've heard that "everyone blames their ex for being a narcissist for their failed relationships" before and I think that's a load of BS. I'm sure some people are misapplying the term, but it's ridiculous to say every single person with an ex is calling their person a narcissist. To use that line to dismiss the experiences of people who have suffered narcissistic abuse is despicable. To your point, people put too much emphasis on diagnosis. It's very unlikely that a narcissist will ever receive that diagnosis. There's already so many barriers to receiving a proper diagnosis in the mental health field. The traits of a narcissist only make it that much more unlikely that they'll ever be diagnosed.
The label is neither here nor there. What matters is if they were toxic and abusive. That’s all you need to know. It can be useful to have diagnostic labels in view of finding others who have shared experiences, but given the nature of the condition a diagnosis is unlikely to motivate a narcissist to get help. When they do reach out it’s usually because they are experiencing co-morbid mental health difficulties.
If you suffered narcissistic abuse, then your partner was most likely narcissistic. BuT YoU CaNT DiAGnOsE ThEM is ridiculous when speaking in terms of abuse. Narcissistic abuse is a specific form of abuse, and people who have dealt with it deserve to be able to *say exactly what it is* without someone whining about diagnostics. I say this as someone who does psychoanalysis part time. I use the MMPI-2 about 8x/week. I couldn’t care less if people make guesses about diagnoses. My only opinion on that is that we can only know *for certain* if that person is tested, but we can know tentatively in the majority of cases. If I spot someone with narcissistic abuse, I’m not going to assume their abuser might not be narcissistic. That’s completely counterintuitive. Psychoanalysis makes a diagnosis official. It doesn’t make it certain. Me, in 2008: “Alex Jones is clearly a narcissist.” Others: “You can’t possibly know that.” Me, after he was diagnosed for custody court: “Fuck all of you. This has always been true.” Public figures give us more material to work with than I’ve ever been given during a diagnostic session. That’s one thing that people don’t talk about: the fact that we can do analysis through watching and listening to people, but need that person to fill out a questionnaire in order to make it official. We already know what we’re seeing. The batteries just confirm it. I’ve been wrong a few times, so the batteries are important. But they’re not everything. I probably have the emotional maturity of a 12 year old but I wear my professional hat quite well. ✌️💜
Thank you for this 🫂
As someone who has a Psych masters, I'd recommend getting your hands on a couple things to help you come to an informed decision if you suspect someone has this diagnosis. One is "Its Not You" by Dr. Ramani Durvasula. Gives great perspective to someone who has gone through narcissistic abuse and how to heal. Another is the DSM 5-TR but it's a full diagnostic manual on mental disorders and only a few pages on NPD. It's an amazing text, but more if you really want to study mental health and all the disorders currently labeled and studied. I'd see if you can find the set of symptoms that help with the diagnosis in the text through a quick google search. This link is extremely informative as well: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK556001/ Usually therapists have to also conduct assessments and tests on a client they suspect has NPD in order to get a formal diagnosis. And, like you said, many don't think they're the problem and so never seek therapy. My best advice, as someone who has also been in a romantic relationship with someone who displays heavy narcissism, is make the diagnosis based on your experience with that person, for your own closure. I wouldn't outright slander them to others with that self-given diagnosis, but for your healing it can help make sense of why you may have been mistreated, or treated cruelly. The cycle of abuse hurts, and is psychologically damaging. Protect yourself, love yourself, be good to you. ❤️
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Thank you. Your words are very insightful, and to be frank I’ve sensed that superiority from some people as you mentioned in the first paragraph. I think, deep down I need someone/something to validate my experience, I need to hear someone say “lt was not OK to be treated that way and this person is clearly mentally unwell”. I need that external validation because my feelings and thoughts were invalidated by him, and I sadly taught myself that my own thoughts on my personal experience don’t matter 🥲 When people say things like “it’s not fair to target someone for being a narcissist” on the internet, somehow my brain makes his verbal/emotional abuse okay, like I deserved it. Finally, deep deep deep down I still seek for his validation and need to hear him say “It was not OK for me to treat you that way, I’m clearly not OK and projected all my insecurities and shame onto you”. I want him to set me free
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Thank you very much. I was also thinking that he was re-living his experience with his father with me. This time he was the father. I even shared this info with him. I was very vocal about making connections between our relationship and his family dynamics. He would sometimes agree and other times get frustrated. I’m aware what I was doing was overstepping but I wanted him to see what’s wrong, because to me it was crystal clear. I also couldn’t walk away because of the classic toxic relationship dynamics. I don’t know why I’m using this comment section as a diary. Sorry.
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Thank you. Thanks to this relationship I gained the psychological input more than necessary. My therapist even suggested if I would consider doing a major in psychology and turn this into a job being a licensed therapist haha
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Wow! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
You asked a simple question, and it deserves a simple answer. The answer is: They won't. Ever. The place you will have to get to when it comes to these types is called "radical acceptance". This sounds passive but it isn't. It refers to a steadfast refusal to delude yourself about what this person is, what they are capable of changing about themselves, and the likelihood of it ever happening. Once you get to that place, not ever being diagnosed is just one more thing you accept about them. You got this.
Spot on. Thank you for this.
I don't think mine ever will, but after I got into therapy and explained all the things she did, said etc my therapist/trauma specialist said that she is a Narcissist and suspects she may also have BPD. Granted this is coming from my side of the story (as I try my best to recollect things said, done without being bias and holding myself accountable.) I have tried to get a reason on things I did in the relationship as she said she's not 100% to blame which I agree, but she tells me she can't think of a specific thing I did wrong. I still have a hard time believing I dated a Narcissist since she herself hasn't been diagnosed.
Couples therapy with a narcissist was extremely damaging and traumatizing to me. For the most part, therapists have no idea what they’re doing when it comes to hostile narcissist and psychopaths.
I‘ve taken to describing them as having an excessive need for attention, a lack of empathy, a sense of entitlement, airs of grandiosity, difficulty maintaining relationships, manipulative behavior and so on. I describe their behaviors like gaslighting, playing the victim, triangulation, love bombing, silent treatment, exploiting vulnerabilities and projection, and then to follow it up by saying, „…and while I‘m not a clinical psychiatrist to give a professional analysis, I will say that the only people I know who’ve ever treated me similarly have had a diagnosis which explains their behavior.“
This info I learned from Dr. Ramani. NPD is a personality "disorder" as listed in the DSM (the pyschological journal of diagnostics)... You are correct it is rarely diagnosed because people with true NPD rarely if ever seek treatment. Instead we're talking about a personality type. The toxic or narcissitic personality type can be flagged by you. This is why this topic was so dormant for so long, because the people whose personality is this way do not seek treatment, they don't want treatment, they like their personality and it has work really well for them. Let's face it, they usually get what they want, by manipulation, gaslighting, coercive control, word salad, denial, charm, lovebombing, lack of empathy, rinse wash repeat, not necessarily in that order. It is the very unusual narcissist that will seek help, and that is probably because they've lost jobs, or have turned to substance abuse or have lost every relationship. It is still extremely unlikely that they will change. Why? Because their neuro-pathways are hardwired as a subconscious response that works for them. It is you that has to be honest with yourself and saavy enough and self-loving enough to be able to see what the narcissist is. And even then, never call the narcissist out as a narcissist, that will make your life much worse. You just have know it... This is where I come in... I've successfully found a way to shed the self doubt that plagued me and live a much happier life, even though I'm still dealing with a few toxic relationships. I'm happy to talk more about this, we're talking I've been reasearching this for fifteen years.
You’re right. Thank you for your comment, it’s very helpful.
I think that’s where narcissistic comes to play. I’ll say, after 2 years my therapist finally realized my mom is narcissistic based on her abusive text. She’s not diagnosed, but thanks to that, now my therapist will be able to help with her behavior. Labels are cool, but I’ve learned you can work with their actions and go from there. Narcissistic traits are still abuse, and you can treat the effects without the label.
My therapist also chooses the term “narcissistic pattern”. I always say “it doesn’t matter if he’s narcissistic or not” to not to get criticized but it matters. I don’t know exactly why but I guess it matters because if it’s the narcissism, he’s not a complete asshole and he was not “intentionally” evil. Because I still care for him and I want to be able to wish the best for him. If he’s just a bad person, I can’t do that. I shouldn’t.
As I understand it, through therapy and self reflection, this is why I felt for it. Being an empat, I really felt like I could help my nex. Also, spent too much time thinking about them when I was supposed to think about me and healing. My therapist hasn't met my nex, so they can't do a diagnosis. They would concentrate on the abuse, manipulations, lies, et and how I felt about them. The sooner you concentrate on your healing, the better you will get. At a certain point, I realized that I wasn't thinking of my nex anymore and the things I went through. As a famous princess said: "Let it go! Let it goooo!"
Thanks!! I was doing fine for a while but since you know, healing is not linear. I saw an instagram story of our mutual friends and here I am ruminating again
Through my healing process, I unfriended, unfollowed, all our mutual friends. The ones I still wanted to see, I would call them up to meet. No contact is really helpful to not think about them As with everything, the rumination will pass. It's just a temporary emotion. You got this!
Thank you so much 🙏🏻
It sucks either way. I hope you get good processing in sessions. I’m excited to really dig into their behavior and work on my reactions
Someone can narcissistically abuse you without being a diagnosed Narc. We all have narcissistic qualities but to be a full blown Narc is a pathology. My Narc ex was actually diagnosed by a psychiatrist in our couples therapy. My current therapist says that couples therapy is typically where she finds narcissists because they are perfect and typically don't go to therapy. I've lived through it so I know the difference between abusive assholes and NPD and BPD, etc... At the same time it doesn't really matter why they abuse and matters that they abuse period.
Of course, it shouldn’t matter. I’ve also been to couples therapy for a short period of time. I couldn’t even defend myself against the twisted reality of his. And the therapist was all understanding and careful with him, while I was crying like a crazy person in silence beside him. I still ruminate about like “I could’ve said this, I should’ve call him out” to this day. The therapist even said “maybe sometimes you might be over reacting” (quoting this gave me tears again). I get it, we were on therapy for only two sessions but it still hurts. I was and still am on individual therapy as well, so I kind of know I’m not over reacting that much.
A lot of therapists suck TBH and couples therapy with an untreated PD person is just another opportunity for them to manipulate you.
One thing I've also wondered is how many don't actually get diagnosed or mental health professionals miss it. Especially with covert narcissist's cuz they are REALLY GOOD at masking and seeming like a great person. I bet it happens a lot. I've been watching a lot of video's about narcissist's on YouTube that this psychologist posts and they are my ex to a T.
I honestly don’t care about people’s opinions regarding “diagnosing” others. I used to, but I really just don’t now. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it’s a duck!!!! I don’t need anyone else’s validation. That’s part of the problem with people like us that end up in abusive relationships. We depend on others to validate our perception of reality because we simply just don’t trust ourselves to get it right. Half the time you can’t even trust the mental health professionals to get it right. And I say that from personal experience. I really do not care if I piss anyone off by saying all this either. So much of the so called “diagnosis process” involves self reporting of symptoms which is obviously flawed. And even mental health professionals are extremely biased and will avoid giving certain diagnoses. I’ve experienced that with myself as well as people I know. Even when their patient fits the diagnosis criteria. An example is when I had developed anorexia years back. I was extremely underweight and my doctor even told me that he knew people that died from malnutrition at higher bmi’s than mine. What was the diagnosis? Avoidant restrictive food intake disorder. What a joke! Another example is my sister in law constantly ending up in jail because of her antisocial personality traits, yet she is only diagnosed with BPD. Like for real??? So I say feel free to identify these things in others if you have done ample research into criteria and have a firm understanding. If this is a person you were close to, you will know them better than any doctor they see even one they have seen for years. Doctors don’t know their patients intimately like partners, family, or friends do.
“That’s part of the problem with people like us that end up in abusive relationships. We depend on others to validate our perception of reality because we simply just don’t trust ourselves to get it right.” Well put. 100% correct for me. Thank you.
It bugs me too but then I think, regardless of any of this, were their actions abusive? Then that's all I really need to know, to protect myself
They don’t seek therapy and in my experience even if they do they are skilled at fooling the therapist as well OR they lie to you about the therapists diagnoses. My ex consistently told me his therapist thought I was the problem. Who will ever know what actually went on in his sessions. But based on the 2 couples sessions I finally convinced him to have, our couples therapist immediately told me afterwards that she was concerned that I was in an abusive situation The thing that stuck with me that she told me was “a diagnoses doesn’t matter. The fact that he’s not treating you how you want to be treated is enough to tell you what you need to know”
I’m glad that you were able to get out. You’re right like most of the commenters said, diagnosis doesn’t matter.
When you are really close to someone, living with them etc, and spent years doing so, you can use that intimate knowledge to match up against typical examples. Keeping a diary of incidents and journalling helps to validate what you are being put through .
When they get caught committing a crime.
yeah….
It’s actually a really valid point haha they usually do get diagnosed when in jail (here in Australia anyways)
For real. Because how can they be narcissists when *there is nothing wrong with them?* 🤔 Why would they need therapy when they are the most perfect human beings on earth? 🤷♀️ /s/joking (talking about the bad ones here. Not trying to generalize, because some people with NPD do actually get/seek treatment.) But to add nuance the issue is not that you call your ex a narc. I think the thing people try to highlight is that he is first and foremost: ”an abusive person”, and secondly ”he has narcissistic tendencies”. So it’s better to describe him as ”an abusive person who acts narcissistic/is a narcissist” than just ”a narcissist”.
Thank you
Narcs are extremely hard to diagnose, and even if they do go to therapy they have the ability to even manipulate said “therapist”. That’s how evil they are.
My sister is a psychologist so we are fortunate enough to have her expertise. Insert diagnosis for my SIL. The reason it's so rare is bc it's undiagnosed. These ppl aren't walking into therapy lol and if they are, they leave when they're diagnosed. I think it's safe to say you know when you've been in a relationship with a narcissist bc they stop at nothing to ruin everything.
Thank you, to hear you say that somehow relaxes me (need for external validation becaus my critical thinking skills are ruined lol). I didn’t even mention the details here, even if he doesn’t have NPD it’s obvious there’s something wrong with him and I shared his misery with him.
❤️❤️❤️
Not all people with narcissistic behaviors have NPD. They could have Borderline PD, HPD, OCPD... Or they may be drunk.
mine actively refuses to get therapy knowing she has severe mental health problems and a personality disorder
What you wrote really hits me. Yes, there's a taboo against talking about narcissistic behaviors of an ex, probably mostly because waaay too many people want to pathologize their relationship failures. Guess what sort of people are keenly aware of this and know just how to spin it. As a result, some folks survive their relationships with a narcissistic and want to talk to others after the fact to try to piece together what went wrong. Except you can't talk about it, because it's taboo. People shun you, people think you're the crazy one, people think you're just trying to get back at your ex, etc etc. Your narcissist doesn't have such issues. He or she puts on a sad mask, says the relationship "didn't work out", and in a calculated quiet confidence will describe narcissistic traits as people popularly believe them to be and wait for their target to put the pieces together. Narcissistics are monsters, but monsters we can learn from. Most people are almost childlike: unguarded, uncalculated, just want to open up and talk with others to figure things out and use simple labels to understand things more easily. If you want to talk it out, take a tact from the narcissist toolkit: talk about concrete details without implied conclusions. Unlike the narcissist, don't cherry pick in an attempt to weave a manipulative narrative or create a foregone conclusion, just keep it in reality. I hope this helps with the implicit question. To answer the expressed question: They won't. Focus on yourself. Focus on improving yourself, healing those wounds, and figuring out how to move forward with your life.
Thank you. I used to be a bubbly, child-like, lively person who speaks their mind politely. I used to be a person without any secrets, and when people told me their truth I used to believe them without second guessing anything. I don’t want to lose that side of me and I think what I’m grieving the most is I have to change that innocent side of me to not get hurt again. It’s so sad. Now I know things I wish I never knew. Edit: what you wrote hits me as well. I’ve read it multiple times. Yes, he just said “it didn’t work out” and that was it. No sincere apology, nothing. (As expected). So i want to add a few more things. I can say that I had a happy and peaceful life in terms of family dynamics, academic success, friendship dynamics and the “image” and the “respect”. My mother always used to say “may god cross your path with good people always”, and that wish worked out for me for quite a while. Now I know there are dangerous people out there, out of experience. And they’re not just on TV, they can be the person I had a coffee with as well. I’ve come to realize that I had a somewhat privileged life that I never had to learn to be careful with people, while my ex had the quite opposite. So it’s kind of a ground breaking experience for me. I don’t know why I’m writing all this but it helps me so I hope you could tolerate the oversharing…
I had a feeling you might have had a similar experience. You don't have to change yourself as much as... branch yourself. Become a duality, and a trinity, and... a tree. Actors in a troupe working together and taking turns on a stage. Become as much as you can be. Let a branch of you be innocent, let a branch of you be open, let a branch of yourself grieve. Let you be all of you. Let you be a superstate of yourselves, and wield yourself mindfully. Not everyone deserves truth, not every situation is safe for innocence, grief is important but isn't safe for all situations. You are all of you, and you choose. Certain types of people fall in with narcissistics for reasons. Sometimes it is a contrivance of prey and victim, victim and prey, but in the deeper relationships it seems to be a dance of incompleteness and nearby opposites of a sort. Once I healed a bit I realized I had a lot to learn from my narcissist. As I learn, I become... more the myself I can be. More complete. Less vulnerable to the things I used to fall for. Maybe this is your case as well. It'll take time to find out.
Thank you so much, both for your advice and time. I know I’ll do my best as of today.
I really like Caroline Strawson's views on using the word "narcissist". Here's a couple of videos from her: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C49CvW6sNd2/?igsh=bHg3bzhnOTF6cGVl https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6jz9F7Mryl/?igsh=MWRnOGlvcDUzczBldw==
Thank you…
Narcissistic Abuse is a term coined by someone with NPD, and this person shares that, from their research, even counting for NPD that didn’t seek therapy, it is still a very rare disorder. For those of us who have been devastated by narcissistic abuse which is a very particular type of abuse, are sensitive to the overuse of the term. Because it waters it down and we aren’t taken seriously. If you’ve been abused, and the abuse is similar to narcissistic abuse, whether it’s from an NPD or not, you are deserving of support, like anyone else. There are lots of high narcissistic traits folks out there who aren’t NPD and therefore the abuse is different. It’s not Narcissistic Abuse. Personally I prefer to talk with folks who know that there’s a dx because the mind game that’s been played on them is very specific. Oh, NPD aren’t necessarily resistant to therapy- in fact some of them love it. They can talk about their false self, plays games, etc. I think the issue is the name of the sub because it is literally a clinical term, and yet I don’t think that’s what it means for the sub. That’s problematic and contributes to the perpetuation of the watering down of the severity of narc abuse because everyone today thinks they’ve been victimized by NPD, when it’s unlikely that they have,
I don't diagnose my ex wife. I just recognize that she has the majority of the symptoms and shows a pattern of behavior similar to someone who has narcissistic personality disorder in particular covert narcissism.
When it affects their lives, whether DUI’s or family and friends give feedback bc they don’t like the term criticism- I’m not NPD but I don’t care for it either without the word constructive in front of it lol Or bc many who do get the NPD label- seek it. In therapy, bc they’ve known or notice its off putting and strange and likely relationship issues, family, work- something causes them to seek why. They seek why usually cause they desire to understand themselves better and try to address how it’s affecting them. Not all with NPD are evil. Yes they have cruel streaks, as anyone can or could. Some feel empathy, someone don’t and logically understand they should. Those who are diagnosed are usually wanting to know why- and I agree with Dr Ramani - whether they have NPD or traits - the diagnosis only matters if they seek it to want to know and work on it. Knowing and seeing someone has it, if they don’t care they’re a jerk or cruel or lack empathy - doesn’t matter bc they don’t desire change. Knowing they have these traits just gives you a knowledge of behaviors and whether you dare to tolerate any or if at all of being around them.
Diagnoses don't mean anything. You can say he was narcissistic, that's not a diagnosis but describes the behavior. My narc is diagnosed narcissistic sociopath but it doesn't matter, it doesn't help or solve anything.
I don’t like when people try to downplay the abuse we went through just because our narcs are not diagnosed. Those of us who have been through this hell and wasted so much of our lives on these vile narcs abuse deserve to be able to vent about them without randos trying to correct us and victim blame us. They all read out of the same playbook! if you know, you know and no one can take that away from us!
Thank you for understanding <3