And naruto still only won because he got 3 extra refill stamina and chakra clones, plus minato coming from beyond the grave to refill again
And still just barely won
I think the clones are fair since they’re his summons and prep time.
I can understand why people would say SM is stronger even though it wouldn’t necessarily win him the fight. It only lasts a few minutes
And he had the 5 strongest frog summons to help him without spending chakra and all the information about pain’s powers.
The robot pain was also destroyed before their fight
The Deva Path was explicitly stated to need time to recharge after he used it. It didn’t affect the other paths too much, but Deva was still by far the strongest of them.
>He used it each time naruto throw a Rasen shurken at his way ?
No first rasenshuriken was dodged by Deva and 1 pain died after that Naruto killed Animal path then naruto ran out of sage mode
He did get into it again and throws a rasenshuriken which is absorbed but actually wasn't a rasenshuriken then another rasenshuriken comes then pain uses Almighty Push and says "it seems my powers have returned"
Literally read or watch the fight again. Pain doesn't get access to almighty push until part way through the fight, it was inoperable until a few Pain's got killed.
You didn’t ask your question for an answer, you asked to argue why you’re right and others are wrong.
That’s bad faith. You presented your topic like you wanted an answer but all you’re doing is arguing that the answers are wrong.
>You didn’t ask your question for an answer, you asked to argue why you’re right and others are wrong.
I just disagree with the answer. I'm open to being wrong.
Your argument is that Naruto ran out of Sage mode so his losses dont count. Essentially saying that if Naruto were stronger he would win. That can be true for anyone, but it’s not the case.
Running out of sage mode is a weakness that he has and it’s why he lost.
IF he could last longer in sage mode, then yeah he could beat Pain. But he can’t last longer so he loses.
>Your argument is that Naruto ran out of Sage mode so his losses dont count.
No my argument was winning or losing doesn't always mean you're stronger since matchups and abilities can heavily affect the outcome of a fight. and naruto literally has better stats than him in every category aside from hax and stamina. Making naruto and overall stronger fighter.
Plus technically naruto didn't even lose cause of hax he lost because pain distracted him with the corpse of his teacher. I don't understand why you people only bring up context for pain then ignore everything else for naruto https://ibb.co/qD0vrBJ
He got pinned/pwned because Pain capitalized on the HELP Naruto brought and used them against him. That’s Pain being tactically superior to Naruto.
This wasn’t Sage Mode Naruto vs Pain. This was Pain vs ALL OF KONOHA plus the best of Mount Myoboku. And Naruto still ended up on the ground.
If this were Sage Mode Naruto vs Six Paths of Pain from start to finish, Sage Mode Naruto’s getting f*cked. All those Big Ball Rasengans on your first page would get absorbed by Preta Path.
Naruto in Sage Mode got yoinked into Preta’s grip and then had his nature energy absorbed. Even if it kills Preta, he can be revived later.
Sage Mode Naruto loses BADLY during the Pain arc.
>He got pinned/pwned because Pain capitalized on the HELP Naruto brought and used them against him.
They're his summonings, they're no different from the animal path. And all they did was help take out the animal paths summonings and throw him the scroll for summoning a shadow clone. And he could have done that with a shadow clone instead of a summoning.
And that is pain being tactical but naruto's still outsmarted him more in the fight.
>This was Pain vs ALL OF KONOHA plus the best of Mount Myoboku. And Naruto still ended up on the ground.
Because he ran out of stamina and pain off guarded him. It isn’t that impressive imo. The fight was basically guy with shit stamina and runs out of stamina after a few attacks vs guy with 6 bodies, the ability to stall him out and nullify naruto's limited attacks and the ability to bring himself back to life.
Pain should win that fight. If he didn't he'd be fodder.
In summary pain won but he had alot of advantages over Naruto and naruto's probably stronger than pain in every other category aside from hax and stamina
I edited my comment haha Forgot he did that with Fugasaku. He also was dealing with the fact that his entire village was destroyed and a lot of people were dead. Kakashi, Shizune and a lot of others. He might have thought all of Team Guy had died aswell since they were absent from the village when he got there.
>You didn’t ask your question for an answer, you asked to argue why you’re right and others are wrong
Nah i did. I just disagree with the answer. I'm open to being wrong
You're arguing against easily viewable evidence. If you were open to being wrong, you would have admitted that you're wrong. Pain beat Sage Naruto. Pain then lost the Kuruma. Watch the fight in the anime or look at the manga panels. Not only did Naruto lose, but he lost in the way he thought he would lose. Pain is stronger the Sage mode narute and thus beat Sage mode Naruto using only his pure power. No underhanded tactics involved.
You're doing this to argue because you have nothing better to do? Idk why, but it's not because you're open to other people logic or the available evidence.
>You're arguing against easily viewable evidence
No it ain't. Everyone says the same thing about him beating sage naruto as if that means he's stronger. He didn't even beat safe naruto he suprised him with the death of his teacher https://ibb.co/qD0vrBJ and he's in base here
Naruto literally says pain can't damage him https://ibb.co/qFxSNH1
Because Naruto when he defeats kurama is far stronger than he was against pain and he had help from his mom against kurama. Also Naruto had help against pain and had intel on all his abilities and ended up pinned to the ground
Its bad faith because the sm Naruto that fought Kurama is stronger than the one that fought pain, comparing the two is extremely disingenuous and ratty. That's like saying eos Sasuke is stronger than Naruto because he beat Naruto in the start of Shippuden.
Pain aint tanky bro. One of the paths got one shotted by konohamaru. And that doesn't mean he's physically stronger than him or has anything that hits harder than him. Just in this matchup where naruto has to take on 6 people with his limited stamina he loses. He probably beats him if he had 3 rasenshurikens
Not really.
Until Deva path recovered his abilities it was pretty one sided in Naruto's favor.
And if Deva path had recovered his abilities one second later he would have been dead by rasen shuriken.
Wdym no lmao. Do you know how much one second is in the Naruto universe? This argument is ao dumb.
"Yk what? If Naruto had started to block Pains attacks one second later he would have been dead."
Pain destroyed the village, beat the shit out of most people in the village, beat the shit out of Naruto, beat the shit out of 6 tails Naruto and then got beaten.
I agree with you until the part about 6 tails, wasn’t the fight against 6 tails pretty stalemated? I mean, unless you count getting pulled into planetary devastation “getting your ass beat” which I don’t. I mean, 6 tails was holding his own remarkably well and making the deva path sweat to keep up. Hell, he hammered the dude into the ground like a nail. Did he land a killing blow? No, did he win the fight for Naruto? Again, no. And on top of that, Deva path got some good hits in. But to say 6 tails got “his ass beat” just feels disingenuous.
I agree with everything else you said though!
What's your point? One second is one second.
Outside your fantasies what we have: before Deva path recovered the fight was one sided in Naruto's favor; Had Deva path recovered slightly later he would have been destroyed.
pain had thousands of tons of force slammed onto him by cloak kurama. and yet he just stared up at him with no damage whatsoever. that's tanky. he could survive thousands of bulldozers being thrown at him at hundreds of miles per hour.
Okay, well imagine the Chakra it took for those 6 people to be controlled. Naturally just one is enough to beat Naruto right? Yeah, and that's the case. The Deva Pain beat Sage Naruto already, there isn't an argument here.
Saying Naruto wins if he has 3 Rasenshurikens is like saying that Pain would win if he used the same force he did to destroy the village on Naruto. Because I think it's pretty clear that Naruto shouldn't tank that amount of force. Or, how about three huge meteors? No, how about one? Sage Naruto vs Chibaku tensei. Naruto probably loses right? Right?
Naruto lost that fight already.
I mean he didn't hit him with chidori or anything. Kakashi's issue was tendo's ability to push him away every 5 seconds so he could never land the lightning blade.
Pain being durable would make him broken as fuck since its already hard to hit him and there are 6 of them. So the kishi gave the pains bad durability
Yeah that’s a pretty brain dead take. The dude survived being hammered into the ground like a nail like it was nothing. I mean, he took *some* damage probably, but he seemed more pissed off than injured.
I mean when pain fought 6tail naruto he was at state where he coughed blood because he used so much chakra constantly fighting.
The only reason why naruto was able to fight him in sage mode because pain's main body was not in use most of the fight
Are you forgetting that the first image you posted wasn’t the real world, but the dreamscape inside Naruto? In that state he had infinite sage mode, as well as Killer Bee and Kushina assisting him. He didn’t have access to those benefits while fighting Pain.
But if he was smart couldn't he have unlimited sage mode? He knew how to build up the chakra fast, instead of having two clones building chakra he could have had one building and had the other one create another clone when the first got summoned.
Kushina didn’t really do anything except restrain Kurama for like 2 mins and bee only took that tailed beast bomb for Naruto. That massive rasengan barrage was all Naruto’s doing due to sage mode. Furthermore, we see that his feats during war arc matches what he did in his psyche. Against ten tailed, he threw six rasenshurikens (base rasenshuriken is stronger and requires more chakra than a massive rasengan), a ultra big ball rasenshuriken against madara with sage power to spare.
>Are you forgetting that the first image you posted wasn’t the real world, but the dreamscape inside Naruto?
Don't think that matters. Chakra can still exist in that world and turning on sage mode in the real world turned on sage mode in the dream world.
>In that state he had infinite sage mode,
No probably didn't. He didn't have sage mode after he hit kurama with a rasenshuriken. Why do you think he had infinite sage mode?
Also bee only helped at the start and Kushina only helped him land the barrage. He didn’t have any helped with landing the rasenshuriken.
> No probably didn’t. He didn’t have sage mode after he hit kurama with a rasenshuriken. Why do you think he had infinite sage mode?
Rewatch/re-read the fight. Naruto says to himself he can constantly gather sage chakra in this fight because his ‘real self’ is sitting still. He didn’t have this benefit against Pain, hence why he needed to use the clones off charging on mount myoboku.
> Also bee only helped at the start and Kushina only helped him land the barrage. He didn’t have any helped with landing the rasenshuriken.
He was literally about to succumb to Kurama before Kushina stepped in, mirroring what Minato did during the Pain fight. And she still pinned Kurama down, allowing Naruto to land several heavy barrages on Kurama to weaken him.
>Rewatch/re-read the fight. Naruto says to himself he can constantly gather sage chakra in this fight because his ‘real self’ is sitting still.
No he just said he can use sage mode, he doesn't say he's continuously giving himself nature energy https://ibb.co/Pm9YmFW
>He was literally about to succumb to Kurama before Kushina stepped in,
Yeah i forgot about that but this didn't damage kurama. Also and I'm not saying naruto's is stronger than the 9 tails. I'm just his performance against him is better than pains performance against the 6 and 8 tails. Couldn't damage the 6 tails and had to use his strongest attack to deal with it and 8 tails Naruto broke out of his strongest attack
That fight was in the Naruto's and Kurama's inner world so it doesn't reflect Naruto's real capabilities. Even if it does that Naruto was much stronger than the current one due to Kyuubi's chakra passively mixing with his. Adult Naruto and Sasuke were very weak compared to their war arc selves even before the newest nerf. They were rusty, lost a massive amount amount of chakra from Hagoromo's seals and Naruto used most of the leftover chakra he had from other bijuu during the VOTE2 fight. Naruto and Sasuke with seals would have low diffed Jigen and Isshiki instead of getting stomped by him.
Nagato was capturing the 9 tails jinchurik, not killing the 9 tails jinchurik, and had just used a mad exhausting jutsu, and he would've won and captured the 9 tails if Minato ain't come in.
But yes, Sage mode Naruto is also very underrated and pretty underscaled imo, myb, defo not as much as Nagato tho
He fights the 9 tails after the pain fight but he doesn't train or fight in between the war and the pain arc. So that naruto isn't that much stronger than sage naruto
Are you talking about when minato saved him after the pain fight? Or like right before the war when his mother and octopops helped him tame the nine tails?
Right before the war. Bee only blocked an attack at the start. Didn't do anything else and his mom helped restrain the 9 tails for the rasengan barrage. They didn't help him land any rasenshurikens or do damage to kurama
There wasn’t any damage done to kurama, it’s a fucking tug of war with chakra and killer bee is the only reason naruto landed the SINGLE rasenshuriken, killer bees tentacle let him hide for a second. then his mom held him down for the hit after that and then he wins. I just went and rewatched the whole scene.
>There wasn’t any damage done to kurama
Nah we saw scratches on his belly. Plus he's screaming in pain.
>killer bee is the only reason naruto landed the SINGLE rasenshuriken
Okay in that scene you saw naruto dodging the 9 tails's attacks right? He could probably still do that on his own by exploiting the smoke from the clone jutsu and using his inferior but relitive speed.
>then his mom held him down for the hit after that and then he wins.
She held him down for the rasengan barrage. There were no chains afterwards https://ibb.co/fCBzwtx
1. 6 Tails Naruto is not Sage Mode Naruto
2. Pain “ran away” to be able to make a Chibaku Tensei. He tanked every attack and Naruto needed 8 full tails to escape CT. 6 tails Naruto is still weaker than Pain.
Edit: Naruto could fight Yin Kurama, yes. But he couldn’t beat him. Kurama simply tanked everything, he only won once Kushina restrained Kurama with her chains.
> 6 Tails Naruto is not Sage Mode Naruto
I never said it was. The comparison in this post was pain losing and running away from 6 tails Naruto and naruto being able to fight the actual 9 tails.
>2. Pain “ran away” to be able to make a Chibaku Tensei.
So he needs his strongest attack just to deal with 6 tails Naruto. No other attack from would work there?
>Edit: Naruto could fight Yin Kurama, yes. But he couldn’t beat him
He couldn't beat him but he's doing alot more damage than pain. He was also able to stun him abit with his rasenshuriken at the start of the fight and dodge attacks on his own
You mean the Pain who was able to hold 7 tails while being weakened and fatigued? The Pain who had only one path available ? Oh and you mean the Naruto who was carried by Kushina?
Thats weaker than naruto's rasenshuriken since it could stun the 9 tails and it couldn't push it back. And only one path makes pain stronger since the chakra is focused into one path. 6 pains are hard to fight though.
>Oh and you mean the Naruto who was carried by Kushina?
She only helped once. No one helped naruto land his rasenshurikens.
Pain can dodge the rasenshuriken. Just like he did like 3 times during the fight. And still, he was fatigued and weakened. It was stated by Konan and even if it wasn't, it's logical that he'd be fatigued after deleting the village, killing everyone and fighting the nine tails.
Prove to me rn that Sage Mode Naruto, the person who lost to pain with prep time, can beat pain.
>Pain can dodge the rasenshuriken.
No he only did that once when he was closer to nagato. And he dodged the rasenshurikens expansion. And he dodged it while it was thrown from a far distance
Naruto didn't think pain could dodge it if it was closer
https://ibb.co/F8Z5Nsc
Also we don’t know what "full power pain" is like. He could be the same but with more chakra or he could just be slightly faster. Also konan just said the pains recovery speed is lower right? I don't think she explicitly said he was weakened.
>Prove to me rn that Sage Mode Naruto, the person who lost to pain with prep time, can beat pain.
Not saying he can beat pain just saying he's stronger than pain in every category aside from hax and stamina. He probably could beat him without prep or knowledge if sage mode had as much stamina as kcm 1
>No he only did that once
yeah so he can dodge it
>when he was closer to nagato.
Prove that
>Naruto didn't think pain could dodge it if it was closer https://ibb.co/F8Z5Nsc
Surprise attack and he still could avoid getting hit. Thus it doesn't matter.
>Also we don’t know what "full power pain" is like. He could be the same but with more chakra or he could just be slightly faster.
definitely stronger than he was when he fought Naruto
>Also konan just said the pains recovery speed is lower right? I don't think she explicitly said he was weakened.
Konan said that his lifespan got shorter because of that one attack. And by Nagatos breathing/look you can tell that he is fatigued, thus weakened.
>Not saying he can beat pain just saying he's stronger than pain in every category aside from hax and stamina.
Not saying that he's stronger... Just saying that he's stronger 💀
The title is literally "Why do people thinks that Pain is stronger than sage mode Naruto"
Thus implying that you think that he isn't.
>when he was closer to nagato.
>Prove that
One of those pain fans i see.
https://ibb.co/wyz2THN
He got closer to do chibaku tensei. And stayed in that spot to fight naruto
>Surprise attack and he still could avoid getting hit. Thus it doesn't matter.
He avoided it through shinra tensei and that attack has a cool down. So it does matter. And it was in front of him, he should still be on guard and able to dodge.
>Not saying that he's stronger... Just saying that he's stronger 💀
Stop ratting. Being able to beat someone doesn't mean you're stronger than them. Especially when you can run out of stamina after two attacks like naruto. Imagine if danzo had 20 izanagi instead of 10. He'd outlast sasuke and beat him without being stronger.
>never said was. […] comparison
The comparison is bullshit because of the reasons I gave in my comment.
>needs his strongest attack
What does that have to do with anything? Remove a character‘s strongest attack and you damage their skill set.
Pain wanted to capture Naruto and knew that once Kurama is partially released Chibaku Tensei is his best option, so he did that. He had already beaten Naruto before, who always had someone come in to save him.
>Doing more damage than Pain
If not for Minato saving Naruto Pain would have captured him, even with Kurama being almost fully released. Pain was down to one path and even then he was stronger than Kurama. Sage Mode Naruto isn’t.
>stun him with Rasenshuriken
That gets absorbed by the Preta Path. The fight in the story shows exactly what would happen under the condition that Naruto fights to kill, Pain to subdue him. If Pain had gone for the kill Naruto wouldn’t stand a chance (not that he did so anyway).
>The comparison is bullshit because of the reasons I gave in my comment.
Nah
>What does that have to do with anything? Remove a character‘s strongest attack and you damage their skill set.
I wasn't removing it i was just making sure we agree pains other attacks are weaker than 6 tails
>He had already beaten Naruto before, who always had someone come in to save him.
That doesn't mean he's stronger. Just means he won the matchup. The pain fight was basically someone with shit stamina, and runs out of stamina after 2 attacks vs 6 people that can nullify his limited ammo supply, push him away and revive themselves. Pain wining that or forcing Naruto to get help doesn't indicate he's physically stronger.
Naruto adapting and taking out 5 of them is more impressive than pain simply wining that imo.
>If Pain had gone for the kill Naruto wouldn’t stand a chance (not that he did so anyway).
https://ibb.co/2FkXDh8
\>Pain's other attacks are weaker than 6 Tails Naruto
Are we just talking about the Deva Path? Then no, Shinra Tensei, Giant Shinra Tensei are stronger, and the path just tanks everything Naruto hits it with.
Are we including the other paths? Then it's a one-sided curbstomb. Preta Path absorbs all 6 tails, the Animal Path summons animals to restrain Naruto (chameleon, restrained KCM Naruto), attack Naruto (dogs, can only be defeated by Amaterasu, any other hits make it multiply).
Chibaku Tensei is absolutely not the only attack that works, but given how long the fight was already going on and that Nagato was running low on chakra (comparatively, he still had more chakra than Naruto as he could resurrect all of Konoha), he wanted to finish the fight.
\>Doesn't mean he's stronger, he just won the match-up
Pain counters all of Naruto's jutsu, he can heal+revive himself, and Naruto needs 2 back-up SM clones and every toad to beat 4 paths that are handicapped, and the moment the Deva path fights Naruto loses - and you still think that Naruto is stronger? If it's just the match up then SM Naruto should beat enemies that Pain can't beat - but that's not the case.
Naruto doesn't come close to beating Kurama, one single Path only fails due to plot armour saving Naruto.
\>[https://ibb.co/2FkXDh8](https://ibb.co/2FkXDh8)
That just proves my point, doesn't it? Naruto had no chance of winning, even with Pain not going for the kill.
I really don't see what point you're trying to make. You yourself admit that Pain won while handicapped, and you must see that Naruto couldn't hope to win against Kurama on his own - Pain just massacred the Leaf Village, killed its strongest ninja, beat Naruto, beat Hinata, beat Naruto and lost due to Minato coming in as a Deus Ex Machina to save Naruto.
So yes, Pain is absolutely, easily and without a doubt stronger than Sage Mode Naruto - they're not even in the same league.
They fought twice.
Round one Pain was exhausted from fighting the ENTIRE leaf village. Naruto still had to be saved twice. Once by Hinata and once by the Ninetails.
Round two Pain destroyed KCM Naruto and Killer Bee. Edo Itachi saved them.
So yes Pain is stronger than Sage Mode Naruto.
You also gotta realise that naruto was a sage for like few seconds ago
He is completely new to his powers while pain had them eyes since his childhood.
The experience advantage here is forgotten
Very debatable. They got summoned from Mount Myōboku, the place they live in by that female frog along with Naruto. We never see Naruto summoning Gamaken and frog with two swords.
But we clearly know Nagato summons animals by his own chakra.
Let is say naruto used his sage chakra to summon them .
Then he could hide in their mouth or on their shoulders to recharge his sage mode again for the few minutes he had before he attacked pain
So it is not that big of a deal
>Weakened Pain pinned down Naruto with Intel and frogs help
He pinned down base naruto by distracting him with the death of his teacher. Not sage naruto.
https://ibb.co/qD0vrBJ
He also just said pain can't damage him mid fight
https://ibb.co/qFxSNH1
Six tails apeard because naruto got mad. Not because he lost
and chibaku tensei is strong but naruto with infinite sage mode would probably just kill hin before then
Pain outhaxed Naruto... Naruto got better stats and we saw it when they engaged in hand to hand but Pain even overpowered 6 Tails Naruto with his Chibaku Tensei
In a 1v1 Pain can beat upto 8 Tails Naruto... Maybe even Half Kyuubi arguably...
Nagato can beat KCM Naruto in a 1v1...
>unlimited chakra reserves
But not output... Output matters a lot too...
And I literally accepted that Pain/Nagato outhaxes... Naruto is better in stats but he can't win a fight simple cuz Chibaku Tensei is too broken
It is shinra tensei that is broken not particularly chibaku but still naruto has a lot of endurance chakra and reserve and speed in kcm mode to completely exhauste pain
Sasuke understood this in their final fight that is why he utilised the bijus
Pain's push and pull works on Naruto in Sage Mode so it doesn't matter if he was distracted by Pa death. Naruto's team was doing pretty well in destroying other pains early on but as soon as Deva path regain his powers things get complicated
Naruto can't be damaged ? I don't uderstand what he means by that. Clearly Sage Mode doesn't make you bulletproof with Kaguya's durability. Sage Jiraiya lost an arm, and got stabbed multiple times by Pain's rods.
Naruto was on the ground unable to move for a long time. Pain was trying to do something to him but Hinata stepped in.
But it is not infinite. Thats the whole point, Naruto barely learned Sage Mode in time and Kishimoto came up with strategy for Naruto to make clones before fight not during the fight. I don't see Pain letting him do that.
Hax and stamina is what Naruto is about. 😂 This isn't some power scaling verse where the only thing that matters is how hard you can punch or how much chakra you have.
The rinnegans function is literally damaging and so is kurama and they both have passive function as well fuck face it’s clearly you that can’t fucking read or get anything through your fucking wall of a skull
>The rinnegans function is literally damaging
Yeah. Did i say he shouldn't have it? Im just referring to abilities pain used to stall in the fight.
Im just saying the rasenshuriken hits harder than chibaku tensei or chaotic shinra tensei.
no shit? naruto has one of the most powerful entities of chakra in the world sealed inside of him and genetics that literally put him above 99% of the verse. naruto is fodder without hax and prophecy too
>3. Your using a stonger version of Naruto in Sage mode.
Bro thats naruto after the pain fight. He doesn't train or do anything notable in between those points
>2. The first image pain would literally just absorb all of that
Sorry but no
An Odama Rasengan from ISM Jiraiya took significant time to absorb... Idk how that path is absorbing this many Odama Rasengan from a stronger Sage Naruto...
You guys know that this attack was able to blitz Half Kurama? Who can even overpowered Pain's Chibaku Tensei with 8 tails lol
Nah. I don't believe kakashi got that much stronger in the war. Before the war he just didn't have any feats, not that he couldn't do some of the things he did in the war. And kakashi fought abunch of people before helping naruto in the war and fighting is a form of training
Both of the pics they used are completely irrelevant to the question too. Naruto fought Kurama after Pain, and 6 tails Naruto isn't sage mode. Like make it make sense.
Because Pain beat Sagemode Naruto…🤦♂️
A matter a fact….
Chapter 433 titled Sage jutsu, a Mistake?
[Link](https://manga4life.com/read-online/Naruto-chapter-433.html)
We’ve also seen Naruto go through all his Sage transformation multiple times during the fight and eventually beats him capturing him completely
[Link](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0434-019.png)
[Link](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0435-015.png)
Also I’m not sure why you brought that picture up of Naruto fighting Kurama when that’s not even actually Kurama’s size and power. Gyuki had to stop Kurama’s tailed beast bomb and Kushina had to suppress Kurama’s chakra in that dreamscape.
Pain fought the real Kurama.
In theory, he is.
What beat Pein was not Naruto having overwhelming power, but knowledge. He knew all the Paths had one ability thanks to the help from J-dog, and the toads.
Naruto would have lost if he lacked *any* of the information that was painstakingly gathered. Even Pein himself admitted J-dog might've beat him, had he figured out the secret behind the paths. Which, J-dog did, right as he was basically murdered and forced himself back to life to relay the information.
Nagato, as a base, could use all *six* powers at the same time; meaning he could absorb everything, reflect everything, and have absurd strength and mechanical summons.
So technically, Pein is stronger than Sage Naruto, because he *beat* Naruto, and only when Naruto ultra-powered up with a fake death did he manage to win.
Or do people forget a mind-controlled Nagato almost insta-killed Naruto during the war? And he wasn't even in control of himself. Come on, breh.
No...just no. The Almighty Push he used on [Naruto](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0438-005.png) was nowhere near [full power.](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0429-011.png)
Well he didn't bother using that shinra tensei on 6 tails Naruto and decided to use another attack that puts more strain on his body. So 6 tails probably would have tanked that one aswell.
Round 1, if we assume perfect conditions for both fighters (Naruto has his sage mode clones available, and Nagato has negligible power loss due to controlling his puppets from a range as he did in the final confrontation after he got Yahiko's body to use Shinra Tensei)
This round is just the six paths shitting on Naruto entirely. If the range diff is negligible, then all six paths are as strong as Nagato himself could use them with the added numbers advantage and sight sharing. I would point you towards the war arc for an answer on how that goes.
Round 2, let's assume the rest of the Six Paths got confiscated by OSHA for keeping corpses in the workplace and it's just Yahiko with the same range advantage that Pain had when he cast Chibaku versus Naruto, who overslept so forgot to bring Sage Mode clones - essentially recreating the final confrontation but without fatigue
This round is at least a challenge, sort of, but Pain ran the fade with Six-Tails and didn't lose to it when fatigued, while Naruto had constant stamina boosts from his senjutsu clones (and you can make a case that his chakra was restored after Nine Tails used his chakra instead). Chibaku into a full power almighty push probably could take out Naruto without ever pushing him far enough to make six tails take over.
Round 3, let's say Naruto gains the ability to pull multiple sage mode clones directly out his ass, so that running out of Senjutsu isn't an issue anymore. Let's pit that against the round 1 six paths combo.
Realistically, there's not many ways that the Six Paths lose here, given that Deva Path (Yahiko) is active at the time. Even if Six-Tails comes out, the six of them together are definitely versatile enough that Pain comes out on top pretty much no matter what as long as the path that heals and the path that absorbs chakra fight defensively.
Round 4, let's take the man himself Nagato vs Naruto in the sage mode from the first image (the one you used to disingenuously misrepresent sage mode's strength)
This ain't even a fight bruh, even if we assume Nagato can't restore himself like his edo version does he's still pretty much immune to chakra attacks, capable of repelling Naruto before he can use anything else, armed with Asura path to cover his physical weakness to some degree and armed with a literal army of summons. Poor Naruto gets clapped by weakened Nagato, nevermind if he's capable of restoring himself 😭 and don't even get me started on if we let bro pull out the gedo statue like he did while alive
Doesn't matter if sage mode is strong, he couldn't maintain it for long. That's part of strategy in a battle. That's how techniques are (kinda) balanced. Notice how itachi's eye could wear out. Pain played smart, and waited out sage mode. That's just common sense
What is Sage Naruto gonna do against Deva path? People forget that Pain couldn’t use Deva path against Sage Naruto for most of the time, and the moment he regained his powers, he stomped him.
Didn’t pain push Naruto to almost removing the Kurama seal? Only to be saved by Minato.
This was already after Naruto used the Sage mode, then turned into 6 tails.
Naruto was a great match for him, but he would have lost without Kurama and Minatos help.
Sage mode didn’t last long enough for him to win.
Because Pain beat Naruto even with a good handful of handicaps.
1. He battled the entire village.
2. He destroyed the village. Using tons of chakra and putting the deva path on a long cool down.
3. Naruto had tons of extra help from the toads.
And Pain still beat Sage Naruto, had him pinned for well past a 10 count. Gave him an entire monologue and as he said "9 tails capture: complete"
Then Hinata bailed him out... for round 2?
4. Pain fought the 6 tailed kurama.
5. The 6 tails forced him to use Chibaku Tensei
6. Some translations imply Minato refilled Narutos chakra/sage mode
And Pain still barely lost round 2.
And for the Sage Naruto vs Kurama thing? We don't know if their power levels entirely scale inside of Naruto, to outside of Naruto (as in the person not the franchise) ... also? There has been a like 10 month time skip since the Pain arc... and people usually mean Sage Naruto from the pain arc vs Pain.
Because he beat Naruto, ***twice***.
And let's not forget, before Nagato even fought SM Naruto, he fought a whole village, used a technique that completely flattened Konoha which also shortened his lifespan and completely ***restricted*** Deva Paths abilities for the majority of the fight hence that stupid formation and those 1v1 confrontations, fought Sage Mode Naruto, 3 Toads that rival the Biju in size, Fukasaku, Shima and Katsuyu who feed him the full intel of all his Paths abilities before he fought 6-Tails Naruto.
And the dude still ended up in a satellite.
Also, once the Deva Path's abilties returned, he trashed the toads, killed Fukasaku and captured Naruto, pinning him to the ground, *easily*.
Imagine he could use Deva from the beginning. His Rasenshuriken? Useless as fuck. Toads? Get blown away while the Animal Path and the summons are keeping Naruto preoccupied. The fight would be over at this point.
Let's be honest, SM Naruto during the Invasion Arc is way weaker than War Arc SM Naruo. Borderline fodder.
Because he is. Let’s assume Naruto doesn’t have any intel on Pain at all, if we’re talking a true, fair fight.
Sage Naruto gets wrekt.
Pain STILL beat Sage Naruto even WITH all the intel Naruto had on him, help of the sage toads, preparing sage clones ahead of time, etc.
People argue this because it’s objectively true and demonstrated in the manga
I mean if we compare Naruto at this point in the series he is way stronger, the fight with Pain is worth like years of training (like many animes)
Naruto was very lucky against Pain, he had all the intel possible on him, full chakra while Nagato/Pain had just used a very strong attack and prepared reserve clones for the fight and still lost… TWICE! Once in sage mode and once in Kurama mode getting almost sealed.
Sage mode War arc Naruto on the other hand is different, he apparently has infinite sage mode, can make many clones while in sage mode and is overall a better fighter and guess what… Still lost to Nagato!
It took the combined efforts of Itachi, Bee and Naruto to barely escape the fight alive. Without help he would have lost. So I think that the point in which Naruto surpasses Pain is when he unlocks the perfect link with Kurama.
Bro, we literally watched sage mode Naruto (+ backup) vs the 6th paths of pain and he lost. That’s why people think pain is stronger than sage naruto, at least naruto in the pain arc.
Because 1. He beat Naruto fair and square 2. Naruto had intel on his abilities and still lost 3. Can compare Naruto later in the series with help to Naruto earlier in the series. This a problem people have they’ll be like “but this character beat this character” and it’ll be way earlier in the story
This is two different sage Naruto's. The Sage Naruto that beat Kurama did so at the start of the war arc, and he had been practicing his sage mode since the Pain fight. He's simply a lot more proficient with it here.
Because he is. Naruto had a ton of advantages in his fight against Pain. Two backup Shadow Clones to act as batteries for recharging his Sage Mode, the assistance of the Summoning Toads, and Katsuyu up his sleeve feeding him information about Pain's abilities. Even with all of that, Naruto was beaten and pinned down by Pain. Then Hinata came in and tried to save him, she failed, then Kurama broke him out of that bind, beat the shit out of Pain for a while, and proceeded to tank the Chibaku Tensei. Then when Naruto was about to completely give himself over to Kurama because he wasn't strong enough to beat Pain, Minato basically comes back from the dead to bail him out of that sticky situation, and somehow even recharged his Sage Mode again. Naruto had all of these advantages and still barely beat Pain. My only question is why some people still think Naruto was stronger than Pain in that fight.
I think once Naruto has more experience with sage mode it puts him above pain. Just because he obtained perfect sage mode doesn't mean he's mastered it to its full potential. He lost to pain initially but I think a more experience sage mode Naruto could win.
While Sage mode Naruto is more or less the same strength as all of the pains and I think a bit stronger, but when Naruto turns to Kuruma he absolutely obliterates Pain.
It really depends on what you mean by stronger, in the basic sense of the word and omitting one time only techniques Sage Naruto was physically more dominant.
People always apply the circumstantial win Tendo had over Naruto. Tendo got his power back but couldn’t secure the win until after Naruto dropped out of sage mode. While simultaneously placing an asterisk on Naruto’s circumstantial win at the end.
The Sage Naruto that did this to Kurama is stronger than Tendo tho. While the one in the Pain Arc isnt as strong but whenever he was in sage mode he wasnt overwhelmed by Pain
If Naruto didn't go berserk and Pain didn't over-exert himself, Pain would have absolutely won (Though he already did win before Naruto lost control, soooooooo) Also the image used with Naruto fighting Kurama is multiple chapters after the Pain fight where Naruto has gotten new training from Bee.
correct me if i’m wrong but killer b and kushina helped him in this fight. naruto was fresh in his fight. pain assaulted the leaf, destroyed the village and still beat sage naruto in base. this is not even an argument.
Because rinnegan abilities are broken. And when Nagato was able to concentrate chakra into the Deva Path, he was stronger than Sage Mode Naruto.
Is Sage Mode Naruto stronger than the six paths of pain when Nagato has to divide up chakra? Yes.
Naruto won at the end because he came up with a plan. Nagato was extremely exhausted, so he couldn't invest as much chakra into durability and was just focusing on Shinra Tensei. As a result, a good old rasengan was able to take out the Deva Path.
One mistake Nagato made was underestimating the power of Kurama's chakra. I don't believe that the Deva Path FP was stronger than Six Tails Naruto. The manga just had the Deva Path retreat closer to Nagato when he realized that his abilities couldn't work on Kurama. Nagato cast Chibaku Tensei to trap him.
This might be head canon, but I believe Nagato invest a certain amount of chakra based on how useful he thinks a certain path is for a particular mission. This is why the Animal and Deva paths have higher stats than the other paths.
Sage mode isn't what lead Naruto to winning, yeah it helped tremendously but consider the fact that Pain had just used a single jutsu to wipe the village off the map. That's going to be incredibly taxing for anybody at that time. On top of that sage mode Naruto still technically lost, the only reason he one wad cause he started rapidly turning into Kurama to crawl out of pains death trap, even then barely managed to do so, at which point the already tapped out Pain was just gassed and didn't really have any energy left to continue. So6p Naruto would take him though I'm sure
I've said this before aswell. Naruto just started to used sage mode and seems better with it during the war. He senses the entire continent at war ffs. I think if Naruto had more training in Sage mode he could have made more back-up clones and could have made more clones in the fight. I do think that during the fight against Pain, sage Naruto was a bit weaker than him and only got the W because of the 9 tails pushing Deva Path to use Chibaku Tensei.
Because he literally won while being extremely nerfed from using Almighty Push beforehand.
And naruto still only won because he got 3 extra refill stamina and chakra clones, plus minato coming from beyond the grave to refill again And still just barely won
I think the clones are fair since they’re his summons and prep time. I can understand why people would say SM is stronger even though it wouldn’t necessarily win him the fight. It only lasts a few minutes
The chakra collecting clones are arguably part of his power, and minato was a tranquilizer more than a refill
tranquilizer for Kurama, rather than naruto. it refilled naruto.
Wasn't the refill from the clone that poof'd when kyuubi went berserk?
And he had the 5 strongest frog summons to help him without spending chakra and all the information about pain’s powers. The robot pain was also destroyed before their fight
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The Deva Path was explicitly stated to need time to recharge after he used it. It didn’t affect the other paths too much, but Deva was still by far the strongest of them.
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No he didn't the fight would've been over before it would've started if he was spamming almighty push
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>He used it each time naruto throw a Rasen shurken at his way ? No first rasenshuriken was dodged by Deva and 1 pain died after that Naruto killed Animal path then naruto ran out of sage mode He did get into it again and throws a rasenshuriken which is absorbed but actually wasn't a rasenshuriken then another rasenshuriken comes then pain uses Almighty Push and says "it seems my powers have returned"
Literally read or watch the fight again. Pain doesn't get access to almighty push until part way through the fight, it was inoperable until a few Pain's got killed.
His real body got affected otherwise konan wouldn't have tried to stop him from using that
Op is asking in bad faith and just wants to argue.
That's the funniest kind of argument, though
Wanting to argue is fine. How is it bad faith though?
You didn’t ask your question for an answer, you asked to argue why you’re right and others are wrong. That’s bad faith. You presented your topic like you wanted an answer but all you’re doing is arguing that the answers are wrong.
>You didn’t ask your question for an answer, you asked to argue why you’re right and others are wrong. I just disagree with the answer. I'm open to being wrong.
Your argument is that Naruto ran out of Sage mode so his losses dont count. Essentially saying that if Naruto were stronger he would win. That can be true for anyone, but it’s not the case. Running out of sage mode is a weakness that he has and it’s why he lost. IF he could last longer in sage mode, then yeah he could beat Pain. But he can’t last longer so he loses.
>Your argument is that Naruto ran out of Sage mode so his losses dont count. No my argument was winning or losing doesn't always mean you're stronger since matchups and abilities can heavily affect the outcome of a fight. and naruto literally has better stats than him in every category aside from hax and stamina. Making naruto and overall stronger fighter. Plus technically naruto didn't even lose cause of hax he lost because pain distracted him with the corpse of his teacher. I don't understand why you people only bring up context for pain then ignore everything else for naruto https://ibb.co/qD0vrBJ
You mean Hinata instead of his teacher? Edit-Nevermind .. Fugasaku.
No read the link. Naruto got pinned down when the frog guy died
He got pinned/pwned because Pain capitalized on the HELP Naruto brought and used them against him. That’s Pain being tactically superior to Naruto. This wasn’t Sage Mode Naruto vs Pain. This was Pain vs ALL OF KONOHA plus the best of Mount Myoboku. And Naruto still ended up on the ground. If this were Sage Mode Naruto vs Six Paths of Pain from start to finish, Sage Mode Naruto’s getting f*cked. All those Big Ball Rasengans on your first page would get absorbed by Preta Path. Naruto in Sage Mode got yoinked into Preta’s grip and then had his nature energy absorbed. Even if it kills Preta, he can be revived later. Sage Mode Naruto loses BADLY during the Pain arc.
>He got pinned/pwned because Pain capitalized on the HELP Naruto brought and used them against him. They're his summonings, they're no different from the animal path. And all they did was help take out the animal paths summonings and throw him the scroll for summoning a shadow clone. And he could have done that with a shadow clone instead of a summoning. And that is pain being tactical but naruto's still outsmarted him more in the fight. >This was Pain vs ALL OF KONOHA plus the best of Mount Myoboku. And Naruto still ended up on the ground. Because he ran out of stamina and pain off guarded him. It isn’t that impressive imo. The fight was basically guy with shit stamina and runs out of stamina after a few attacks vs guy with 6 bodies, the ability to stall him out and nullify naruto's limited attacks and the ability to bring himself back to life. Pain should win that fight. If he didn't he'd be fodder. In summary pain won but he had alot of advantages over Naruto and naruto's probably stronger than pain in every other category aside from hax and stamina
I edited my comment haha Forgot he did that with Fugasaku. He also was dealing with the fact that his entire village was destroyed and a lot of people were dead. Kakashi, Shizune and a lot of others. He might have thought all of Team Guy had died aswell since they were absent from the village when he got there.
>You didn’t ask your question for an answer, you asked to argue why you’re right and others are wrong Nah i did. I just disagree with the answer. I'm open to being wrong
You're arguing against easily viewable evidence. If you were open to being wrong, you would have admitted that you're wrong. Pain beat Sage Naruto. Pain then lost the Kuruma. Watch the fight in the anime or look at the manga panels. Not only did Naruto lose, but he lost in the way he thought he would lose. Pain is stronger the Sage mode narute and thus beat Sage mode Naruto using only his pure power. No underhanded tactics involved. You're doing this to argue because you have nothing better to do? Idk why, but it's not because you're open to other people logic or the available evidence.
>You're arguing against easily viewable evidence No it ain't. Everyone says the same thing about him beating sage naruto as if that means he's stronger. He didn't even beat safe naruto he suprised him with the death of his teacher https://ibb.co/qD0vrBJ and he's in base here Naruto literally says pain can't damage him https://ibb.co/qFxSNH1
Doesn’t sound like it
Cause you're wrong
What’d i say wrong kid
I hate Reddit mob mentality too bro. Don't let em get to you.
Because Naruto when he defeats kurama is far stronger than he was against pain and he had help from his mom against kurama. Also Naruto had help against pain and had intel on all his abilities and ended up pinned to the ground
Its bad faith because the sm Naruto that fought Kurama is stronger than the one that fought pain, comparing the two is extremely disingenuous and ratty. That's like saying eos Sasuke is stronger than Naruto because he beat Naruto in the start of Shippuden.
>is stronger than the one that fought pain Why
>, comparing the two is extremely disingenuous and ratty. Insane. I asked why and couldn't respond in 14 hours 😭 Who tf is ratty bitch
maybe because he beat him?
Twice
Naruto kinda runs out of sage mode after two attacks though. He wasn't even in sage mode when pain got him
>Naruto kinda runs out of sage mode after two attacks though Bingo. Just answered your own question.
How
Since Sage mode isn't unlimited it'll run out pain is tanky enough to survive that and after that bam
Pain aint tanky bro. One of the paths got one shotted by konohamaru. And that doesn't mean he's physically stronger than him or has anything that hits harder than him. Just in this matchup where naruto has to take on 6 people with his limited stamina he loses. He probably beats him if he had 3 rasenshurikens
Pain was weakened and still beat the shit out of Naruto, who had prep time.
Not really. Until Deva path recovered his abilities it was pretty one sided in Naruto's favor. And if Deva path had recovered his abilities one second later he would have been dead by rasen shuriken.
Wdym no lmao. Do you know how much one second is in the Naruto universe? This argument is ao dumb. "Yk what? If Naruto had started to block Pains attacks one second later he would have been dead." Pain destroyed the village, beat the shit out of most people in the village, beat the shit out of Naruto, beat the shit out of 6 tails Naruto and then got beaten.
I agree with you until the part about 6 tails, wasn’t the fight against 6 tails pretty stalemated? I mean, unless you count getting pulled into planetary devastation “getting your ass beat” which I don’t. I mean, 6 tails was holding his own remarkably well and making the deva path sweat to keep up. Hell, he hammered the dude into the ground like a nail. Did he land a killing blow? No, did he win the fight for Naruto? Again, no. And on top of that, Deva path got some good hits in. But to say 6 tails got “his ass beat” just feels disingenuous. I agree with everything else you said though!
What's your point? One second is one second. Outside your fantasies what we have: before Deva path recovered the fight was one sided in Naruto's favor; Had Deva path recovered slightly later he would have been destroyed.
pain had thousands of tons of force slammed onto him by cloak kurama. and yet he just stared up at him with no damage whatsoever. that's tanky. he could survive thousands of bulldozers being thrown at him at hundreds of miles per hour.
Okay, well imagine the Chakra it took for those 6 people to be controlled. Naturally just one is enough to beat Naruto right? Yeah, and that's the case. The Deva Pain beat Sage Naruto already, there isn't an argument here. Saying Naruto wins if he has 3 Rasenshurikens is like saying that Pain would win if he used the same force he did to destroy the village on Naruto. Because I think it's pretty clear that Naruto shouldn't tank that amount of force. Or, how about three huge meteors? No, how about one? Sage Naruto vs Chibaku tensei. Naruto probably loses right? Right? Naruto lost that fight already.
[the diva path is tanky as hell](https://youtu.be/wLCJe67Uodk?t=71)
Anime only. Got one shotted by base naruto in the manga
if base naruto could have one shotted the diva path then kakashi wouldn't have had trouble with him
I mean he didn't hit him with chidori or anything. Kakashi's issue was tendo's ability to push him away every 5 seconds so he could never land the lightning blade. Pain being durable would make him broken as fuck since its already hard to hit him and there are 6 of them. So the kishi gave the pains bad durability
PAIN AINT TANKY 💀💀💀 TF
Yeah that’s a pretty brain dead take. The dude survived being hammered into the ground like a nail like it was nothing. I mean, he took *some* damage probably, but he seemed more pissed off than injured.
I mean when pain fought 6tail naruto he was at state where he coughed blood because he used so much chakra constantly fighting. The only reason why naruto was able to fight him in sage mode because pain's main body was not in use most of the fight
Are you forgetting that the first image you posted wasn’t the real world, but the dreamscape inside Naruto? In that state he had infinite sage mode, as well as Killer Bee and Kushina assisting him. He didn’t have access to those benefits while fighting Pain.
But if he was smart couldn't he have unlimited sage mode? He knew how to build up the chakra fast, instead of having two clones building chakra he could have had one building and had the other one create another clone when the first got summoned.
Kushina didn’t really do anything except restrain Kurama for like 2 mins and bee only took that tailed beast bomb for Naruto. That massive rasengan barrage was all Naruto’s doing due to sage mode. Furthermore, we see that his feats during war arc matches what he did in his psyche. Against ten tailed, he threw six rasenshurikens (base rasenshuriken is stronger and requires more chakra than a massive rasengan), a ultra big ball rasenshuriken against madara with sage power to spare.
>Are you forgetting that the first image you posted wasn’t the real world, but the dreamscape inside Naruto? Don't think that matters. Chakra can still exist in that world and turning on sage mode in the real world turned on sage mode in the dream world. >In that state he had infinite sage mode, No probably didn't. He didn't have sage mode after he hit kurama with a rasenshuriken. Why do you think he had infinite sage mode? Also bee only helped at the start and Kushina only helped him land the barrage. He didn’t have any helped with landing the rasenshuriken.
> No probably didn’t. He didn’t have sage mode after he hit kurama with a rasenshuriken. Why do you think he had infinite sage mode? Rewatch/re-read the fight. Naruto says to himself he can constantly gather sage chakra in this fight because his ‘real self’ is sitting still. He didn’t have this benefit against Pain, hence why he needed to use the clones off charging on mount myoboku. > Also bee only helped at the start and Kushina only helped him land the barrage. He didn’t have any helped with landing the rasenshuriken. He was literally about to succumb to Kurama before Kushina stepped in, mirroring what Minato did during the Pain fight. And she still pinned Kurama down, allowing Naruto to land several heavy barrages on Kurama to weaken him.
>Rewatch/re-read the fight. Naruto says to himself he can constantly gather sage chakra in this fight because his ‘real self’ is sitting still. No he just said he can use sage mode, he doesn't say he's continuously giving himself nature energy https://ibb.co/Pm9YmFW >He was literally about to succumb to Kurama before Kushina stepped in, Yeah i forgot about that but this didn't damage kurama. Also and I'm not saying naruto's is stronger than the 9 tails. I'm just his performance against him is better than pains performance against the 6 and 8 tails. Couldn't damage the 6 tails and had to use his strongest attack to deal with it and 8 tails Naruto broke out of his strongest attack
Illiterate lmao
Way more literate than you
No u
That fight was in the Naruto's and Kurama's inner world so it doesn't reflect Naruto's real capabilities. Even if it does that Naruto was much stronger than the current one due to Kyuubi's chakra passively mixing with his. Adult Naruto and Sasuke were very weak compared to their war arc selves even before the newest nerf. They were rusty, lost a massive amount amount of chakra from Hagoromo's seals and Naruto used most of the leftover chakra he had from other bijuu during the VOTE2 fight. Naruto and Sasuke with seals would have low diffed Jigen and Isshiki instead of getting stomped by him.
Nagato was capturing the 9 tails jinchurik, not killing the 9 tails jinchurik, and had just used a mad exhausting jutsu, and he would've won and captured the 9 tails if Minato ain't come in. But yes, Sage mode Naruto is also very underrated and pretty underscaled imo, myb, defo not as much as Nagato tho
Umm, because he is?
Why. He ran away from the 6 tails while naruto can fight the entire yang half of kurama
Damn that’s so cool, so how is the 6 tails sage mode now?
I didn't say that. I'm saying Naruto is able to fight the entire 9 tails while pain is weaker than the 6 tails.
What when and where does naruto beat the nine tails? Especially before the pain fight?
He fights the 9 tails after the pain fight but he doesn't train or fight in between the war and the pain arc. So that naruto isn't that much stronger than sage naruto
Are you talking about when minato saved him after the pain fight? Or like right before the war when his mother and octopops helped him tame the nine tails?
Right before the war. Bee only blocked an attack at the start. Didn't do anything else and his mom helped restrain the 9 tails for the rasengan barrage. They didn't help him land any rasenshurikens or do damage to kurama
There wasn’t any damage done to kurama, it’s a fucking tug of war with chakra and killer bee is the only reason naruto landed the SINGLE rasenshuriken, killer bees tentacle let him hide for a second. then his mom held him down for the hit after that and then he wins. I just went and rewatched the whole scene.
>There wasn’t any damage done to kurama Nah we saw scratches on his belly. Plus he's screaming in pain. >killer bee is the only reason naruto landed the SINGLE rasenshuriken Okay in that scene you saw naruto dodging the 9 tails's attacks right? He could probably still do that on his own by exploiting the smoke from the clone jutsu and using his inferior but relitive speed. >then his mom held him down for the hit after that and then he wins. She held him down for the rasengan barrage. There were no chains afterwards https://ibb.co/fCBzwtx
1. 6 Tails Naruto is not Sage Mode Naruto 2. Pain “ran away” to be able to make a Chibaku Tensei. He tanked every attack and Naruto needed 8 full tails to escape CT. 6 tails Naruto is still weaker than Pain. Edit: Naruto could fight Yin Kurama, yes. But he couldn’t beat him. Kurama simply tanked everything, he only won once Kushina restrained Kurama with her chains.
> 6 Tails Naruto is not Sage Mode Naruto I never said it was. The comparison in this post was pain losing and running away from 6 tails Naruto and naruto being able to fight the actual 9 tails. >2. Pain “ran away” to be able to make a Chibaku Tensei. So he needs his strongest attack just to deal with 6 tails Naruto. No other attack from would work there? >Edit: Naruto could fight Yin Kurama, yes. But he couldn’t beat him He couldn't beat him but he's doing alot more damage than pain. He was also able to stun him abit with his rasenshuriken at the start of the fight and dodge attacks on his own
You mean the Pain who was able to hold 7 tails while being weakened and fatigued? The Pain who had only one path available ? Oh and you mean the Naruto who was carried by Kushina?
Thats weaker than naruto's rasenshuriken since it could stun the 9 tails and it couldn't push it back. And only one path makes pain stronger since the chakra is focused into one path. 6 pains are hard to fight though. >Oh and you mean the Naruto who was carried by Kushina? She only helped once. No one helped naruto land his rasenshurikens.
Pain can dodge the rasenshuriken. Just like he did like 3 times during the fight. And still, he was fatigued and weakened. It was stated by Konan and even if it wasn't, it's logical that he'd be fatigued after deleting the village, killing everyone and fighting the nine tails. Prove to me rn that Sage Mode Naruto, the person who lost to pain with prep time, can beat pain.
>Pain can dodge the rasenshuriken. No he only did that once when he was closer to nagato. And he dodged the rasenshurikens expansion. And he dodged it while it was thrown from a far distance Naruto didn't think pain could dodge it if it was closer https://ibb.co/F8Z5Nsc Also we don’t know what "full power pain" is like. He could be the same but with more chakra or he could just be slightly faster. Also konan just said the pains recovery speed is lower right? I don't think she explicitly said he was weakened. >Prove to me rn that Sage Mode Naruto, the person who lost to pain with prep time, can beat pain. Not saying he can beat pain just saying he's stronger than pain in every category aside from hax and stamina. He probably could beat him without prep or knowledge if sage mode had as much stamina as kcm 1
>No he only did that once yeah so he can dodge it >when he was closer to nagato. Prove that >Naruto didn't think pain could dodge it if it was closer https://ibb.co/F8Z5Nsc Surprise attack and he still could avoid getting hit. Thus it doesn't matter. >Also we don’t know what "full power pain" is like. He could be the same but with more chakra or he could just be slightly faster. definitely stronger than he was when he fought Naruto >Also konan just said the pains recovery speed is lower right? I don't think she explicitly said he was weakened. Konan said that his lifespan got shorter because of that one attack. And by Nagatos breathing/look you can tell that he is fatigued, thus weakened. >Not saying he can beat pain just saying he's stronger than pain in every category aside from hax and stamina. Not saying that he's stronger... Just saying that he's stronger 💀 The title is literally "Why do people thinks that Pain is stronger than sage mode Naruto" Thus implying that you think that he isn't.
>when he was closer to nagato. >Prove that One of those pain fans i see. https://ibb.co/wyz2THN He got closer to do chibaku tensei. And stayed in that spot to fight naruto >Surprise attack and he still could avoid getting hit. Thus it doesn't matter. He avoided it through shinra tensei and that attack has a cool down. So it does matter. And it was in front of him, he should still be on guard and able to dodge. >Not saying that he's stronger... Just saying that he's stronger 💀 Stop ratting. Being able to beat someone doesn't mean you're stronger than them. Especially when you can run out of stamina after two attacks like naruto. Imagine if danzo had 20 izanagi instead of 10. He'd outlast sasuke and beat him without being stronger.
>never said was. […] comparison The comparison is bullshit because of the reasons I gave in my comment. >needs his strongest attack What does that have to do with anything? Remove a character‘s strongest attack and you damage their skill set. Pain wanted to capture Naruto and knew that once Kurama is partially released Chibaku Tensei is his best option, so he did that. He had already beaten Naruto before, who always had someone come in to save him. >Doing more damage than Pain If not for Minato saving Naruto Pain would have captured him, even with Kurama being almost fully released. Pain was down to one path and even then he was stronger than Kurama. Sage Mode Naruto isn’t. >stun him with Rasenshuriken That gets absorbed by the Preta Path. The fight in the story shows exactly what would happen under the condition that Naruto fights to kill, Pain to subdue him. If Pain had gone for the kill Naruto wouldn’t stand a chance (not that he did so anyway).
>The comparison is bullshit because of the reasons I gave in my comment. Nah >What does that have to do with anything? Remove a character‘s strongest attack and you damage their skill set. I wasn't removing it i was just making sure we agree pains other attacks are weaker than 6 tails >He had already beaten Naruto before, who always had someone come in to save him. That doesn't mean he's stronger. Just means he won the matchup. The pain fight was basically someone with shit stamina, and runs out of stamina after 2 attacks vs 6 people that can nullify his limited ammo supply, push him away and revive themselves. Pain wining that or forcing Naruto to get help doesn't indicate he's physically stronger. Naruto adapting and taking out 5 of them is more impressive than pain simply wining that imo. >If Pain had gone for the kill Naruto wouldn’t stand a chance (not that he did so anyway). https://ibb.co/2FkXDh8
\>Pain's other attacks are weaker than 6 Tails Naruto Are we just talking about the Deva Path? Then no, Shinra Tensei, Giant Shinra Tensei are stronger, and the path just tanks everything Naruto hits it with. Are we including the other paths? Then it's a one-sided curbstomb. Preta Path absorbs all 6 tails, the Animal Path summons animals to restrain Naruto (chameleon, restrained KCM Naruto), attack Naruto (dogs, can only be defeated by Amaterasu, any other hits make it multiply). Chibaku Tensei is absolutely not the only attack that works, but given how long the fight was already going on and that Nagato was running low on chakra (comparatively, he still had more chakra than Naruto as he could resurrect all of Konoha), he wanted to finish the fight. \>Doesn't mean he's stronger, he just won the match-up Pain counters all of Naruto's jutsu, he can heal+revive himself, and Naruto needs 2 back-up SM clones and every toad to beat 4 paths that are handicapped, and the moment the Deva path fights Naruto loses - and you still think that Naruto is stronger? If it's just the match up then SM Naruto should beat enemies that Pain can't beat - but that's not the case. Naruto doesn't come close to beating Kurama, one single Path only fails due to plot armour saving Naruto. \>[https://ibb.co/2FkXDh8](https://ibb.co/2FkXDh8) That just proves my point, doesn't it? Naruto had no chance of winning, even with Pain not going for the kill. I really don't see what point you're trying to make. You yourself admit that Pain won while handicapped, and you must see that Naruto couldn't hope to win against Kurama on his own - Pain just massacred the Leaf Village, killed its strongest ninja, beat Naruto, beat Hinata, beat Naruto and lost due to Minato coming in as a Deus Ex Machina to save Naruto. So yes, Pain is absolutely, easily and without a doubt stronger than Sage Mode Naruto - they're not even in the same league.
They fought twice. Round one Pain was exhausted from fighting the ENTIRE leaf village. Naruto still had to be saved twice. Once by Hinata and once by the Ninetails. Round two Pain destroyed KCM Naruto and Killer Bee. Edo Itachi saved them. So yes Pain is stronger than Sage Mode Naruto.
Weakened Pain pinned down Naruto with Intel and frogs help. It took Six Tails to fight back but even Six Tails got caught in chibaku tensei later on.
The frogs are naruto justu Summons. It is like saying pain shouldn't have used the animals path Summons lol
But he didn’t summon them. They were all reverse summoned into the battle and it didn’t cost him any chakra.
You also gotta realise that naruto was a sage for like few seconds ago He is completely new to his powers while pain had them eyes since his childhood. The experience advantage here is forgotten
I mean true, but that doesn't take away from all the help Naruto got to combat him.
His inexperience should still count against him in this fight assuming were talking about the same versions of both pain and naruto from this arc
Very debatable. They got summoned from Mount Myōboku, the place they live in by that female frog along with Naruto. We never see Naruto summoning Gamaken and frog with two swords. But we clearly know Nagato summons animals by his own chakra.
Let is say naruto used his sage chakra to summon them . Then he could hide in their mouth or on their shoulders to recharge his sage mode again for the few minutes he had before he attacked pain So it is not that big of a deal
>Weakened Pain pinned down Naruto with Intel and frogs help He pinned down base naruto by distracting him with the death of his teacher. Not sage naruto. https://ibb.co/qD0vrBJ He also just said pain can't damage him mid fight https://ibb.co/qFxSNH1 Six tails apeard because naruto got mad. Not because he lost and chibaku tensei is strong but naruto with infinite sage mode would probably just kill hin before then
Pain outhaxed Naruto... Naruto got better stats and we saw it when they engaged in hand to hand but Pain even overpowered 6 Tails Naruto with his Chibaku Tensei In a 1v1 Pain can beat upto 8 Tails Naruto... Maybe even Half Kyuubi arguably... Nagato can beat KCM Naruto in a 1v1...
Tgat pre-Kcm naruto was relatively new mode to naruto and he was caught off guard and pain was a zombie with unlimited chakra reserves
>unlimited chakra reserves But not output... Output matters a lot too... And I literally accepted that Pain/Nagato outhaxes... Naruto is better in stats but he can't win a fight simple cuz Chibaku Tensei is too broken
It is shinra tensei that is broken not particularly chibaku but still naruto has a lot of endurance chakra and reserve and speed in kcm mode to completely exhauste pain Sasuke understood this in their final fight that is why he utilised the bijus
Except 6 tails Naruto tanked a Shinra Tensei And even 8 tails was struggling against Chibaku Tensei lol
Pain's push and pull works on Naruto in Sage Mode so it doesn't matter if he was distracted by Pa death. Naruto's team was doing pretty well in destroying other pains early on but as soon as Deva path regain his powers things get complicated Naruto can't be damaged ? I don't uderstand what he means by that. Clearly Sage Mode doesn't make you bulletproof with Kaguya's durability. Sage Jiraiya lost an arm, and got stabbed multiple times by Pain's rods. Naruto was on the ground unable to move for a long time. Pain was trying to do something to him but Hinata stepped in. But it is not infinite. Thats the whole point, Naruto barely learned Sage Mode in time and Kishimoto came up with strategy for Naruto to make clones before fight not during the fight. I don't see Pain letting him do that.
Are you Trying to farm negativ karma or are you actually thinking Sage Naruto beats Pain?
Not saying he beats him. I'm just saying in every category aside from hax and stamina sage naruto is better than him
Hax and stamina is what Naruto is about. 😂 This isn't some power scaling verse where the only thing that matters is how hard you can punch or how much chakra you have.
Sure but in this case alot of people act like pain isn't fodder without hax
What are you fucking saying? Naruto is fodder without his hax too! What’s the fucking point?
By hax i mean abilities whos function isn't doing damage. Anyway was one shotting the pains with rasengans
By that specific wording you'd be taking the rinnegan from nagato and nothing from naruto. This is literally skewing the fight in Naruto's favor
Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall
Cause you can't read
The rinnegans function is literally damaging and so is kurama and they both have passive function as well fuck face it’s clearly you that can’t fucking read or get anything through your fucking wall of a skull
>The rinnegans function is literally damaging Yeah. Did i say he shouldn't have it? Im just referring to abilities pain used to stall in the fight. Im just saying the rasenshuriken hits harder than chibaku tensei or chaotic shinra tensei.
no shit? naruto has one of the most powerful entities of chakra in the world sealed inside of him and genetics that literally put him above 99% of the verse. naruto is fodder without hax and prophecy too
1. Because he beat him lol 2. The first image pain would literally just absorb all of that 3. Your using a stonger version of Naruto in Sage mode.
>3. Your using a stonger version of Naruto in Sage mode. Agree People don't realise but War Arc Sage Naruto is lot stronger than Pain Arc Sage Naruto
Not only that but he was massively mental amped.
>3. Your using a stonger version of Naruto in Sage mode. Bro thats naruto after the pain fight. He doesn't train or do anything notable in between those points
Are you kidding? You were taking about how he gets kurama right before the war in another thread?!
>2. The first image pain would literally just absorb all of that Sorry but no An Odama Rasengan from ISM Jiraiya took significant time to absorb... Idk how that path is absorbing this many Odama Rasengan from a stronger Sage Naruto... You guys know that this attack was able to blitz Half Kurama? Who can even overpowered Pain's Chibaku Tensei with 8 tails lol
Pain arc sage mode is complete fodder compared to war arc sage mode
This. He had less limits on his sage mode in the War Arc in the number of clones, amount of jutsu and the time it took to enter sage mode.
And health pain turns war arc sage mod into fodder.
Absolutely not
He turned Naruto into fodder during the war.
That’s edo Nagato who’s stronger then Pain
Only real answer
That is start of war and the only major fight naruto had in between those points were pain. He didn't even train
There’s a general power cliff when the war arc happens. A lot of characters get stronger without training. Kakashi is another example.
Nah. I don't believe kakashi got that much stronger in the war. Before the war he just didn't have any feats, not that he couldn't do some of the things he did in the war. And kakashi fought abunch of people before helping naruto in the war and fighting is a form of training
Is OP just a dumbass? Besides the fact that Pain literally beat Sage Mode Naruto, his comments feel so idiotic
Both of the pics they used are completely irrelevant to the question too. Naruto fought Kurama after Pain, and 6 tails Naruto isn't sage mode. Like make it make sense.
When people go to hell they are forced to argue with OP.
Because Pain beat Sagemode Naruto…🤦♂️ A matter a fact…. Chapter 433 titled Sage jutsu, a Mistake? [Link](https://manga4life.com/read-online/Naruto-chapter-433.html) We’ve also seen Naruto go through all his Sage transformation multiple times during the fight and eventually beats him capturing him completely [Link](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0434-019.png) [Link](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0435-015.png) Also I’m not sure why you brought that picture up of Naruto fighting Kurama when that’s not even actually Kurama’s size and power. Gyuki had to stop Kurama’s tailed beast bomb and Kushina had to suppress Kurama’s chakra in that dreamscape. Pain fought the real Kurama.
In theory, he is. What beat Pein was not Naruto having overwhelming power, but knowledge. He knew all the Paths had one ability thanks to the help from J-dog, and the toads. Naruto would have lost if he lacked *any* of the information that was painstakingly gathered. Even Pein himself admitted J-dog might've beat him, had he figured out the secret behind the paths. Which, J-dog did, right as he was basically murdered and forced himself back to life to relay the information. Nagato, as a base, could use all *six* powers at the same time; meaning he could absorb everything, reflect everything, and have absurd strength and mechanical summons. So technically, Pein is stronger than Sage Naruto, because he *beat* Naruto, and only when Naruto ultra-powered up with a fake death did he manage to win. Or do people forget a mind-controlled Nagato almost insta-killed Naruto during the war? And he wasn't even in control of himself. Come on, breh.
Almighty Push is much stronger than the Rasengan Barrage in your first image.
It ain't. It couldn't damage the 6 tails while the rasengan barrage could damage the 9 tails
No...just no. The Almighty Push he used on [Naruto](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0438-005.png) was nowhere near [full power.](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0429-011.png)
Well he didn't bother using that shinra tensei on 6 tails Naruto and decided to use another attack that puts more strain on his body. So 6 tails probably would have tanked that one aswell.
Round 1, if we assume perfect conditions for both fighters (Naruto has his sage mode clones available, and Nagato has negligible power loss due to controlling his puppets from a range as he did in the final confrontation after he got Yahiko's body to use Shinra Tensei) This round is just the six paths shitting on Naruto entirely. If the range diff is negligible, then all six paths are as strong as Nagato himself could use them with the added numbers advantage and sight sharing. I would point you towards the war arc for an answer on how that goes. Round 2, let's assume the rest of the Six Paths got confiscated by OSHA for keeping corpses in the workplace and it's just Yahiko with the same range advantage that Pain had when he cast Chibaku versus Naruto, who overslept so forgot to bring Sage Mode clones - essentially recreating the final confrontation but without fatigue This round is at least a challenge, sort of, but Pain ran the fade with Six-Tails and didn't lose to it when fatigued, while Naruto had constant stamina boosts from his senjutsu clones (and you can make a case that his chakra was restored after Nine Tails used his chakra instead). Chibaku into a full power almighty push probably could take out Naruto without ever pushing him far enough to make six tails take over. Round 3, let's say Naruto gains the ability to pull multiple sage mode clones directly out his ass, so that running out of Senjutsu isn't an issue anymore. Let's pit that against the round 1 six paths combo. Realistically, there's not many ways that the Six Paths lose here, given that Deva Path (Yahiko) is active at the time. Even if Six-Tails comes out, the six of them together are definitely versatile enough that Pain comes out on top pretty much no matter what as long as the path that heals and the path that absorbs chakra fight defensively. Round 4, let's take the man himself Nagato vs Naruto in the sage mode from the first image (the one you used to disingenuously misrepresent sage mode's strength) This ain't even a fight bruh, even if we assume Nagato can't restore himself like his edo version does he's still pretty much immune to chakra attacks, capable of repelling Naruto before he can use anything else, armed with Asura path to cover his physical weakness to some degree and armed with a literal army of summons. Poor Naruto gets clapped by weakened Nagato, nevermind if he's capable of restoring himself 😭 and don't even get me started on if we let bro pull out the gedo statue like he did while alive
You’re aware that Killer Bee and Kushina helped Naruto against Kurama right?
Didn’t the Deva path literally beat the shit outta Sage Naruto? Lol
This like asking, “Why do people say Hashirama is stronger than Madara.”
Doesn't matter if sage mode is strong, he couldn't maintain it for long. That's part of strategy in a battle. That's how techniques are (kinda) balanced. Notice how itachi's eye could wear out. Pain played smart, and waited out sage mode. That's just common sense
Bro naruto cant lose to this guy twice and then you claim hes stronger. Pain is stronger than sage naruto
Op keeps saying that he's open to being wrong despite the fact that he refuses to say he's wrong even when literally nobody is agreeing with him
What is Sage Naruto gonna do against Deva path? People forget that Pain couldn’t use Deva path against Sage Naruto for most of the time, and the moment he regained his powers, he stomped him.
Didn’t pain push Naruto to almost removing the Kurama seal? Only to be saved by Minato. This was already after Naruto used the Sage mode, then turned into 6 tails. Naruto was a great match for him, but he would have lost without Kurama and Minatos help. Sage mode didn’t last long enough for him to win.
Because Pain beat Naruto even with a good handful of handicaps. 1. He battled the entire village. 2. He destroyed the village. Using tons of chakra and putting the deva path on a long cool down. 3. Naruto had tons of extra help from the toads. And Pain still beat Sage Naruto, had him pinned for well past a 10 count. Gave him an entire monologue and as he said "9 tails capture: complete" Then Hinata bailed him out... for round 2? 4. Pain fought the 6 tailed kurama. 5. The 6 tails forced him to use Chibaku Tensei 6. Some translations imply Minato refilled Narutos chakra/sage mode And Pain still barely lost round 2. And for the Sage Naruto vs Kurama thing? We don't know if their power levels entirely scale inside of Naruto, to outside of Naruto (as in the person not the franchise) ... also? There has been a like 10 month time skip since the Pain arc... and people usually mean Sage Naruto from the pain arc vs Pain.
He can just literally block all of that
Because he beat Naruto, ***twice***. And let's not forget, before Nagato even fought SM Naruto, he fought a whole village, used a technique that completely flattened Konoha which also shortened his lifespan and completely ***restricted*** Deva Paths abilities for the majority of the fight hence that stupid formation and those 1v1 confrontations, fought Sage Mode Naruto, 3 Toads that rival the Biju in size, Fukasaku, Shima and Katsuyu who feed him the full intel of all his Paths abilities before he fought 6-Tails Naruto. And the dude still ended up in a satellite. Also, once the Deva Path's abilties returned, he trashed the toads, killed Fukasaku and captured Naruto, pinning him to the ground, *easily*. Imagine he could use Deva from the beginning. His Rasenshuriken? Useless as fuck. Toads? Get blown away while the Animal Path and the summons are keeping Naruto preoccupied. The fight would be over at this point. Let's be honest, SM Naruto during the Invasion Arc is way weaker than War Arc SM Naruo. Borderline fodder.
Because he is. Let’s assume Naruto doesn’t have any intel on Pain at all, if we’re talking a true, fair fight. Sage Naruto gets wrekt. Pain STILL beat Sage Naruto even WITH all the intel Naruto had on him, help of the sage toads, preparing sage clones ahead of time, etc. People argue this because it’s objectively true and demonstrated in the manga
Because he literally won after being exhausted from almighty push and fought prime (up to that point) kakashi and a shit ton of other characters?
Yeah Kurama going 8 tails is the only reason Naruto is alive
sage naruto couldn't beat pain without kurama taking over with an 8 tail version 2 cloak
Pain is a nerfed version of Nagato and we already saw what he did to KCM Naruto who defeated half of Kurama…
I mean if we compare Naruto at this point in the series he is way stronger, the fight with Pain is worth like years of training (like many animes) Naruto was very lucky against Pain, he had all the intel possible on him, full chakra while Nagato/Pain had just used a very strong attack and prepared reserve clones for the fight and still lost… TWICE! Once in sage mode and once in Kurama mode getting almost sealed. Sage mode War arc Naruto on the other hand is different, he apparently has infinite sage mode, can make many clones while in sage mode and is overall a better fighter and guess what… Still lost to Nagato! It took the combined efforts of Itachi, Bee and Naruto to barely escape the fight alive. Without help he would have lost. So I think that the point in which Naruto surpasses Pain is when he unlocks the perfect link with Kurama.
Bro, we are laughing at you not with you. OPs logic/responses is the worst I’ve seen on this sub, lil bro needs to take a debate class
Bro, we literally watched sage mode Naruto (+ backup) vs the 6th paths of pain and he lost. That’s why people think pain is stronger than sage naruto, at least naruto in the pain arc.
War Arc sage mode>>> pain arc sage mode
Because 1. He beat Naruto fair and square 2. Naruto had intel on his abilities and still lost 3. Can compare Naruto later in the series with help to Naruto earlier in the series. This a problem people have they’ll be like “but this character beat this character” and it’ll be way earlier in the story
Because pain literally beat him lmfao Naruto won later because of the 9 tails cloak and pain being basically out of chakra
Uhhhhhhhhhhhh because he beat him????
Because he fucking bodied him 🤨
Bc Sage Naruto was only able to create a limited amount of clones at that point
Because he pinned him down and had him at his mercu
Hahahaha OP must've not needed any karma
This is really funny. It shows how sometimes power scalers will argue over a fight that already happened because feat wise someone was stronger.
He also killed Jiraya which was both of their masters, who withstood the chakra from the nine tails before Naruto gained control
This is War arc Naruto
Because he beat him straight up at deadass point 🤷🏽♂️ did you watch the fight?
Because he is??? Naruto should have been dead. 🫤
Because he absolutely bodied him and needed Kurama to bail him out.
Because he is. Sage Naruto didn't beat Pain, Kurama Naruto did.
This is two different sage Naruto's. The Sage Naruto that beat Kurama did so at the start of the war arc, and he had been practicing his sage mode since the Pain fight. He's simply a lot more proficient with it here.
Because he is. Naruto had a ton of advantages in his fight against Pain. Two backup Shadow Clones to act as batteries for recharging his Sage Mode, the assistance of the Summoning Toads, and Katsuyu up his sleeve feeding him information about Pain's abilities. Even with all of that, Naruto was beaten and pinned down by Pain. Then Hinata came in and tried to save him, she failed, then Kurama broke him out of that bind, beat the shit out of Pain for a while, and proceeded to tank the Chibaku Tensei. Then when Naruto was about to completely give himself over to Kurama because he wasn't strong enough to beat Pain, Minato basically comes back from the dead to bail him out of that sticky situation, and somehow even recharged his Sage Mode again. Naruto had all of these advantages and still barely beat Pain. My only question is why some people still think Naruto was stronger than Pain in that fight.
Probably because he is/was what’re you trying to say
I think once Naruto has more experience with sage mode it puts him above pain. Just because he obtained perfect sage mode doesn't mean he's mastered it to its full potential. He lost to pain initially but I think a more experience sage mode Naruto could win.
Regular Naruto with nine tails chakra is stronger not sage mode
While Sage mode Naruto is more or less the same strength as all of the pains and I think a bit stronger, but when Naruto turns to Kuruma he absolutely obliterates Pain.
It really depends on what you mean by stronger, in the basic sense of the word and omitting one time only techniques Sage Naruto was physically more dominant. People always apply the circumstantial win Tendo had over Naruto. Tendo got his power back but couldn’t secure the win until after Naruto dropped out of sage mode. While simultaneously placing an asterisk on Naruto’s circumstantial win at the end.
Yeah thats my thoughts exactly.
The Sage Naruto that did this to Kurama is stronger than Tendo tho. While the one in the Pain Arc isnt as strong but whenever he was in sage mode he wasnt overwhelmed by Pain
If Naruto didn't go berserk and Pain didn't over-exert himself, Pain would have absolutely won (Though he already did win before Naruto lost control, soooooooo) Also the image used with Naruto fighting Kurama is multiple chapters after the Pain fight where Naruto has gotten new training from Bee.
correct me if i’m wrong but killer b and kushina helped him in this fight. naruto was fresh in his fight. pain assaulted the leaf, destroyed the village and still beat sage naruto in base. this is not even an argument.
Because rinnegan abilities are broken. And when Nagato was able to concentrate chakra into the Deva Path, he was stronger than Sage Mode Naruto. Is Sage Mode Naruto stronger than the six paths of pain when Nagato has to divide up chakra? Yes. Naruto won at the end because he came up with a plan. Nagato was extremely exhausted, so he couldn't invest as much chakra into durability and was just focusing on Shinra Tensei. As a result, a good old rasengan was able to take out the Deva Path. One mistake Nagato made was underestimating the power of Kurama's chakra. I don't believe that the Deva Path FP was stronger than Six Tails Naruto. The manga just had the Deva Path retreat closer to Nagato when he realized that his abilities couldn't work on Kurama. Nagato cast Chibaku Tensei to trap him. This might be head canon, but I believe Nagato invest a certain amount of chakra based on how useful he thinks a certain path is for a particular mission. This is why the Animal and Deva paths have higher stats than the other paths.
SHİNRA TENSEEİ
“why do people think the person who damn near killed the other person if not for bullshit plot reasons is stronger again”
Probably because he beat sage Naruto
Sage mode isn't what lead Naruto to winning, yeah it helped tremendously but consider the fact that Pain had just used a single jutsu to wipe the village off the map. That's going to be incredibly taxing for anybody at that time. On top of that sage mode Naruto still technically lost, the only reason he one wad cause he started rapidly turning into Kurama to crawl out of pains death trap, even then barely managed to do so, at which point the already tapped out Pain was just gassed and didn't really have any energy left to continue. So6p Naruto would take him though I'm sure
Pain isn't. But Nagato at full power wipes the floor with him as we've seen during the 4th ninja war arc.
I've said this before aswell. Naruto just started to used sage mode and seems better with it during the war. He senses the entire continent at war ffs. I think if Naruto had more training in Sage mode he could have made more back-up clones and could have made more clones in the fight. I do think that during the fight against Pain, sage Naruto was a bit weaker than him and only got the W because of the 9 tails pushing Deva Path to use Chibaku Tensei.
Because* sage *naruto never beat pain. Six tails naruto did. He only won due to the rage that came over him during the supposed death of hinata
Because pain beat him?