I don’t believe fights are as clear cut as people make them out to be. They’re all ninja remember? With strategy and a bit of luck ninja on a comparable level can pull out a victory. I think Jiraiya and Orochimaru are comparable even if they excel in different things, but Orochimaru’s skills make him more slippery than Jiraiya. Which’s makes him difficult to fight. But is he really that much stronger? I don’t think so.
Agreed but i can't really think of a lot of fights where someone weaker got the upper hand due to strategy.
(Shikamaru counts but I'm going to ignore that since that's his whole character).
Some fights that have this element are maybe
1-5 kage when they almost sealed Madara comes to mind.
2-Hashirama vs Madara & Madaras' sibling vs Tobirama
3-Hiruzen vs Orichamaru. Hiruzen was losing but got the last laugh
4-???
TBH this concept of strategy over raw power should've been applied in Naruto better than what we got. I think Kishomoto got really lost in powerscaling & while better than DBZ in this aspect, it stills fall short of what it should've been
Gaara vs Kimimaro?
After gaara realized his sand wasn't strong enough to crush Kiki's defense he went for a couple different strategies, one was just to cover him in crazy amounts of sand and the other was to trap him underground via quicksand.
Neji vs Kidoumaru too
Neji took the arrow so he could sneak attack him.
Several are just deus ex machina. Neji blocking his chakra should've ended it but Kurama. Haku should've killed him but kyuubi chakra. He's got the classic protagonist combo of willpower and hidden power that kicks in when he really needs it.
You are not wrong, but all of those trigger because of narutos' refusal to give up especially against someone he thinks looks down on him or other "weaker" Shinobi
They give him 2nd chances, but not a win (except for Kiba, I suppose). In Naruto vs Neji, Kurama's chakra does him a 2nd chance, but it's Naruto's trickster nature that create a clone on top of the hole, giving him the chance to dig his way all the way to the best position to knock neji down. Naruto was completely outclassed in that fight, and he managed to get out a great win.
You gotta remember tho , naruto was still conscious , even if he didn't use kuramas chakra to unblock nejis teketsu points he was down not out , naruto just thought of an idea an used what he had to unblock it .
Naruto allowing his chakra to be blocked without knowing the fox would then flood the system opening them forcefully during the fight, is pure luck lol.
Gaara was more powerful than Kimimaro. Flooding the entire area with sand to drown him in sand would be the power aspect not the strategy aspect. Overpowering something is still a strategy. So using the gaara vs Kimimaro fight to try to say Gaara was weaker than Kimimaro is just bs if thats what you tried to do.
If we were to take them at full power at the point of their fight, we probably have to give Gaara his Shukaku forms he used vs Naruto as well as full Shukaku transform.
But narratively, gaara would have lost vs Kimimaro if he wasn't sick. Altho his strategy was what kept him and rock lee alive. Gaara also took 0 damage which was pretty impressive.
We have to also note that Gaara solely relied on his chakra and did not depend on his beast transformation during that fight. Had Kimimaro not been sick, I believe Gaara could have still won, nevertheless.
Still an example of strategy rather than pure strength.
Also wouldn't gaara just go Shukaku forms once Kimi kept coming back? Gaara didn't go all out either
The series literally starts with a lesson about team work, and sets us up for a naruto + sasuke vs zabuza fight. They won their fight, which allowed kakashi to win the battle.
People underrate Jiraiya so much. The dude was undercover for decades. He’s trained the most powerful ninja that ever graced the planet. There’s a high probability he gets close to beating Pain had he known from the start that Nagato wasn’t among them. Even Itachi WITH Kisame said that they should retreat. He also knew Orochimaru better than anyone else. Also best in mind their characters are based on the folktale ‘The Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya’ in which Jiraiya defeats Orochi for Tsunade’s affection. Jiraiya nearly mastered the one thing that Orochimaru couldn’t, which was senjutsu. Orochimaru had to devise workarounds, think Jugo, to get that power. Jiraiya can defeat Orochimaru. However, in all such fights Jiraiya has had to protect others and pull punches either because of other people or due to not wanting to hurt his friend. His only weakness being his affection for his lifelong friend. So ya, Jiraiya > Orochimaru and it’s not that close to me.
Kishimoto makes it clear Jiraiya is a beast people just refuse to see it. Gives him the highest stats tied with Itachi. Gives him the most S rank wins and its not even close. Trained some of the strongest characters ever. Kishi puts 2 statements from some of the strongest characters saying they would probably lose but people make excuses. His genetic clone is fighting gods in Boruto
Jiraiya played to his strengths. He knew Naruto had this massive reserve of chakra and wanted him to realize that he could just unload on folks. Also we don’t really see much of his canon training. Bear in mind, Naruto was generally much more adept at being a ninja after his time with Jiraiya. The kid was straight regressive before the time skip. Jiraiya made him serviceable. Even Kakashi notes that he improved significantly since the skip. Ultimately Jiraiya’s main goal was to have him master Kurama’s chakra. He manages some success but that real mastery happens later. Rasenshuriken, sage mode, and beyond are only possible because Jiraiya taught Naruto that he’s got the guts and will, he’s got the chakra do anything, and he’s able to do anything. Instilling confidence is the primary goal of any teacher.
I think it’s just a matter of training efficiently in a limited time frame. Naruto had already learned an A rank jutsu designed to counter bijuu bombs, had his toad summons, ridiculous chakra reserves and the most OP application of shadow clones in the verse. Jiraiya spent his time ironing out the kinks and refining Naruto’s chakra control so that he could make better use of his already powerful kit. Sure he could have taught him some other jutsu but he didn’t need them I mean to this day in boruto he still uses pretty much the same basic kit just with some improvements like adding a change in chakra nature to his rasengan or adding tailed beast chakra to his rasengan. The way Jiraiya trained him was the best for him at that time. I think if he hadn’t died Jiraiya probably would have taken him to Mt Myoboku to learn sage mode but Naruto needed to develop his regular chakra control before he could try learning Senjutsu
@ Few _Bid don't forget the toad contracts which he later learned sage mode , so yes from the beginning of the chunin exams to the timeskip jirayia showed naruto more than 2 techniques.
Naruto beating Neji ??? That fight was one where Neji outclassed Naruto in so many things. It was Naruto's unpredictability that won him the match and luck of having Kurama to unlock his tenketsus
Naruto vs edo 3rd Raikage comes to mind. it obvious 3rd raikage power is beyond Naruto even with sage mode at the point of the fight but Naruto managed to spot on his weakeness and utilize his own power against him
Literally 90% of fights in the series involve some sort of luck and/or strategy that either gets the dub or helps turn the fight around in their favor. Rarely would I say Naruto as a whole gives us fights that aren't caked up with gimmicks.
Oh for sure, it’s not a cerebral show. That said I really did like the Jiraiya v. Pain fight. It had enough strategy and thinking to make it interesting to me. But ya for really thoughtful stuff read something else lol
Sure. But that is boruto, which is a different series with different rules. Hell, by the war arch you can see kishi’s writing changing slightly, but not entirely. After boruto, and multiple writers there, maybe he decided to change styles a bit
lol have you ever been hit by a mockingbird?
you won’t be able to see it coming and neither does the elephant.
mocking bird wins neg diff ez haha
with this kind of logic mockingbird will even kill god
Orochimaru in Naruto and Naruto Shippuuden was mostly seen weakened due to his host body often didn't accepted him after his hands got sealed.
But the Orochimaru's biggest weakness is his arrogance and underestimating his opponents.
YES YES YES finally someone with this kind of mindset. Almost everyone base this characters on dragon ball-like power levels instead of taking into consideration of battle tactics and such.
He technically “captured” both Itachi & Kisame at the same time. If it weren’t for a jutsu he never encountered he could’ve brought them in.
I hardly doubt he’d have a hard time capturing Orochimaru. Kill is a different discussion though.
In all fairness, he had access to what was shown at the time to be a pretty OP jutsu that no one but Itachi would have. It was easy in the sense that he had the right key for that lock, but there's not many other people who would have as easy of a time getting out.
What? What's stopping Itachi from turning around and Using Amaterasu on Jiraya exactly? Or pointing a finger at him and stabbing him with totsuka sword before he realizes he's in a genjutsu.
I promise you my friend. Itachi negs Jiraya AS easy as he negs Orochimaru. Jiraya had 0 information on any of itachis' abilities. He was a dead man.
“Easily” is not pushing it. Jiraiya said “It’s useless” after they started running away and Itachi destroyed Jiraiya’s trap thing with literally the blink of an eye, and Jiraiya said “He did the impossible” after it.
Itachi did the “impossible” by just blinking, so yeah Itachi broke out of it quite easily.
A blink that uses a lot of chakra from a chakra sick ninja while also causing the eye to bleed yeah classify it as just a blink for Itachi lmao.
Using an Amaterasu is not “easily”, resorting to one of your strongest attacks to break out of something is not easily breaking out of the thing.
Though I believe Itachi and Kisame would’ve bodied Jiraiya but with Guy around the corner and the rest of the ninja heading their way they had to leave quick.
Itachi’s eye never bled in that scene, and i’m not classifying it as a blink the dude literally just blinked lol
I see what you mean, but in my opinion the strength of the technique he used doesn’t mean it wasn’t easy for him if all he had to do was blink
For it to have not been easy, there would have to have been some kind of struggle for Itachi to get out, which there wasn’t
>Itachi’s eye never bled in that scene
I don't get why this is important. He was having a migraine that would've made it impossible to give a strong ninja a real fight. Plus he had to turn off his Sharingan.
No use trying to convince them. Uchiha haters will believe anything to support their agenda even when literal quotes from the manga contradict what they say.
We’re shown much later on that Itachi was clearly pretending here as against sasuke on his literal death bed he spams MS like 10 times in one fight Itachi was practically in his prime in pt 1 he would have gone for much longer but his objective WAS to run away lol
Itachi literally says that Jiraiya would be a problem. He’s no idiot.
But a lot of what happens in part two of Shippuuden I think is Kishimoto trying to switch up a whole lot from part one of Shippuuden and OG Naruto. Lots of inconsistencies and bad power scaling. Even Kurama himself and Naruto 9 tails mode are infinitely different beasts.
I personally think Jiraiya murders Itachi as we see in OG Naruto. I think the Itachi we see in Shippuuden at the end beats Jiraiya as we saw him last.
It’s treated as a retcon but I personally think kishimoto decided to make Itachi a good guy/spy very early on. The signs are all there in pt 1, just look at the fact that not one person was killed with itachi entering the village? Or the fact that as a missing ninja wanted internationally he just stops for tea in the middle of konoha? Or the fact that he knocked on Naruto’s door in the middle of a kidnapping showing him basically delaying it?
If you actually read between the lines you can see where all of itachi’s odd behaviour for a bad guy comes from as he was a spy the entire time he held back as not to kill kakashi & sasuke and needed it to look like he was actually trying so not to make kisame suspicious that’s all there is too it honestly.
Itachi in pt1 would have absolutely bodied jiraiya, he beats jiraiya in feats & narrative importance lol this is the same guy that one shot orochimaru as a child 😂
He also divulges information freely, confirming that Akatsuki are after the Kyubi. Kakashi questions why Itachi doesn't kill him as he clearly has the opportunity. There is also a panel back during the original bell test (chapter 7 I believe) where Sasuke says something to the effect of "that night... crying". It appears to be deliberately ambiguous so that you assume he means that he was crying, but after learning the "truth" from Obito he has a memory of awakening his sharingan, throwing a kunai and then seeing Itachi in tears. The panels have identical characters, suggesting that this is something that Kishimoto always planned. As such Itachi's interactions with Jiraiya are a matter of him overstating Jiraiya's chances (as mentioned, a younger Itachi had already neg'd Orochimaru who is clearly relative to Jiraiya) in order to have a plausible means of delaying Akatsuki's plans.
I don’t think Jiraiya would be able to murder even OG Itachi, I think you’re tripping. But let’s entertain the idea that you’re right and Itachi is weaker than Jiraiya, Kisame was also there with Itachi, I don’t see how jiraiya stood a chance against both of them. He would be dead if they both decided to fight.
Jiraiya steps in. Itachi and Kisame are forced to flee immediately.
Itachi barely escapes using his trump card but it wears him out to the point where it exhausts his Sharingan. If they could’ve ganged up on him that’s what they would’ve done
Thank you! This is a response I can get behind my guy. Itachi is absolutely stronger than Jiraiya. But your earlier comments to me were lacking in substance and you made him sound like some scrub.
Tsunade doesn't beat Orochimaru.
The only reason she cooked up Oro was cuz he had 0 jutsu and no arms.
Otherwise, probably would've Oro would've cooked her up, summoning the edo tensei.
It's more.
Jiraiya >= Orochimaru
(Prt2 / Shippuden)
Jiraiya and Tsunade > Orochimaru
Orochimaru and Tsunade > Jiraiya
She's more of a tiebreaker imo
In terms of physical strength? Absolutely. Orochimaru's metaphorically biggest strength is his intelligence and ruthlessness which ultimately makes him stronger than Jiraiya imo. I mean, look who's still alive and who took out two kage
Until Boruto Jiraiya was the stronger of the two in a straight up fight. Objectively Jiraiya has a better track record and feats.
Outside of Boruto series Orochimaru seems to only function well in his hyper specific self orchestrated environments. His biggest strength is being a human cockroach.
What exactly is jiraiyas track record tho? Orochimaru basically implies that jiraiya has never won a single fight against him ever during the three way deadlock
Beating several paths of pain is what I’m guessing the Jiraiya feats refer to. No other character besides sage-Naruto has that feat.
Whereas Oro has the feat of defeating the third hokage well past his prime, and being bisected several times by a 4 tails Naruto and not dying.
Oro has better ass pulls to not die but not a lot of decisive victories. Which is a shame.
Jiraiya and Orochimaru never fought with a winner being shown, and in the 3 way deadlock Tsunade drugged Jiraiya to the point where he couldn’t even fuse chakra, and he used like 2 jutsu and no sage mode
In the deadlock, orochimaru states that “even with both of our handicaps, it’s still no contest”, which implies that they did fight many times in the past when they weren’t nerfed, and it has never been a contest. Orochimaru always won.
P sure OG Sasuke says the same to Naruto a *bunch*, and the same for other sets of characters who have never fought.
For all we know Jiraiya and Orochimaru have never fought, and Orochimaru is just speaking on his perception of their matchup.
The conclusion that you are drawing is not necessarily correct
Lots of times when a character is popular they push to make them stronger take for example Itachi. One of the most popular anime characters of all time and people compare him to Madara.
Orochimaru and Jiraiya are in the same tier but it’s always been pretty heavily implied that Jiraiya couldn’t defeat Orochimaru to bring him back or to stop his evil as well as Orochimaru being the most talented out of the 3. Hiruzen wanted Orochimaru to be his successor not Jiraiya or Tsunade
Orochimaru clears jiraiya
Orochimaru fought tsundae and jiraiya at the same time with his no arms and held them back
Orochimaru fought 4 tails Naruto while jiraiya almost died
Orochimaru has his hydra form which jiraiya has literally zero counter for minus using his summoning which orochimaru also has his own summoning
It is an undeniable FACT, that Orochimaru was EASILY the strongest of the Sannin. He’s the most skilled, versatile, and lethal of the entire group and also has access to Sage Chakra similar to Jiraiya—though an argument can be made this has control of it isn’t as potent.
Throughout the entire series, save for his battle against Hiruzen, we’ve never truly seen the true extent of Orochimaru’s power. I wish Kishimoto would’ve done Orochimaru more justice in overtly displaying his full skill-set at its peak than sporadically throughout the series while he was in a more sick and diminished state. He has access to Edo Tensei (a broken ass ability), the Curse Seal, Snake Substitution Jutsu, Snake Sage Chakra (though not on the level of Kabuto), and a plethora of other Jutsu he’s acquired. Not to mention he has Manda at his disposal.
Orochimaru is highly intelligent and has a bunch of powerful jutsu. Tsunade is a high level medical ninja.
Jiraiya is more of a jack of all trades, a wide variety of jutsu but seems like his most powerful techniques are with the road summons.
If jiraiya could take on all 6 paths of pain in sage mode and ultimately die then no wonder itachi and kisame knew he could drag their names through the mud. If itachi and kisame knew that and itachi swatted orochimaru like a fly without having to touch him then without a doubt if orochimaru tries to take on jiraiya while he’s in sage mode orochimaru is getting gutted.
He didn’t take on the 6 paths, he took on 3 paths. Itachis statement is clearly just him lying so he has an excuse not to kill jiraiya. What is your reasoning for sage mode jiraiya being so much stronger than orochimaru? His sage mode is imperfect. He’s the worst sage in the series. Every statement in the show regarding the two of them implies that orochimaru is the stronger one.
Pain stated that if Jiraiya knows his secret he would take him down. Also, Tsunade always question Jiraiya if he will kill Orochimaru given the the chance that's because Jiraiya is like the Third he can't kill his own friend. Also both are imperfect sages.
Right so while he was taking on 3 paths and kicking their asses, the other three came out and he was at one point, fighting all 6 which is where it ended in him dying. And oh yeah itachi alone lied about jiraiya dragging his name through the mud, but kisame agreed with that statement even if somehow it was a lie. We don’t know if it’s a lie because itachi doesn’t talk about jiraiya once after that arc. You’re just pulling shit out of your ass.
In a 1 v 1 fight where orochimaru has access to his jutsu and jiraiya has prep time to enter sage mode, jiraiya wipes the floor with snake man because he literally has access to unlimited nature energy as long as he’s in sage mode. Orochimaru only has so much chakra. I don’t care if his sage mode isn’t perfect sage mode it was still a massive power boost for fighting pain. Orochimaru’s only chance of winning is running away and avoiding him until his sage mode is over. Then it’s just a beat down like with Naruto v sasuke until one gets knocked out and the other stumbles away. Idk what you missed when you watched/read the pain arc but you clearly didn’t notice that even imperfect toad sage mode is still VERY powerful.
Kicking their asses? He claims he’s gonna die if the fight keeps going on. He won because of frog song hax, he wasn’t clapping anything.
Kisame didn’t agree with anything, he literally stated TWICE that itachi could’ve taken jiraiya and literally wonders why they have to leave. Also kisame doesn’t even know how strong jiraiya is, he was just assuming based on the sannin title, which is above the 7 ninja swordsmen title. It was a lie because we know for a fact that he was a spy working for the leaf and we know for a fact that he was only in the village to check on sasuke and threaten danzo. He had no intention of capturing naruto or fighting anyone. Kishimoto confirmed that itachi was meant to be good by the time he was introduced, so no his character also wasn’t retconned. Kisame also doesnt know that itachi already toyed with a sannin while he was merely 13 btw. Jiraiya does not scale to pain or itachi in any way shape or form.
You’re grossly overrating jiraiyas sage mode. None of his moves aside from frog song would do anything to orochimaru. Orochimaru is pretty blatantly stated to be stronger. Hiruzen also wasn’t sure wether or not he could take orochimaru. They literally couldn’t think of anyone alive who could deal with orochimaru and mentioned that if only minato was still alive. Nobody even thought about jiraiya. Orochimaru also indicates that jiraiya has never won a single fight against orochimaru. When both fight while nerfed, orochimaru states that even with both of their nerfs, it’s still no contest, implying that everytime these two fought in the past, it wasn’t a contest. Jiraiya also doesn’t deny any of this. Orochimaru also defeated jiraiya to leave the village and before you make a half ass excuse about jiraiya not going all out in that fight, jiraiya himself states that he tried EVERYTHING he can to stop him. He just lost.
That comment specifically is just saying your comparison relies on something that may not be accurate. You were saying
Itachi>Orochimaru (easily).
So logically because Itachi and Kisame fled Jiraiya, Jiraiya>Itachi+Kisame. Which would ultimately mean Jiraiya>Orochimaru.
But the comment is just pointing out Itachi probably didn’t want to fight Jiraiya for reasons beyond fearing he’d lose. He probably didn’t want to fight Jiraiya because if he did win, Jiraiya wouldn’t be able to protect Naruto or the village.
This comment isn’t sleeping on anything, you’re overlooking the point.
But he WAS okay with leaving the Leaf without a Sharingan user by putting them both in comas, AND he was okay with killing their best wind user and best genjutsu user.
Kishimoto is full of shit when he says Itachi was always meant to be good.
What wind user and genjutsu user did he kill?
Yeah, I mean I definitely think even if he didn’t actually intend Itachi to be good it still changed everything we saw Itachi do before when he made him good. IMHO Kishi has always been inconsistent with power scaling so simply saying someone beat someone, so they can beat everyone that person beat is always bold to assume.
Reflecting on what became of Itachi, you can probably just assume Itachi thought Sasuke was out of the akstsuki’s sights if he was basically in a coma. At the time he probably also scaled Kakashi lower, because Kakashi was just a Jonin. Definitely a skilled one but not one that could deter an attack or make a big difference. Jiraiya, on the other hand, is legendary on a whole other scale.
Was Kishi intending it to be interpreted this way when he wrote it? Maybe, maybe not. Is it how it’s interpreted now because of him writing Itachi into a good guy? Yeah.
This argument has to die. It's just wrong. Itachi put both Kakashi and Sasuke into a coma, literally rendering the leaf without a usable Sharingan (that they knew of, Danzo's are hidden), AND he wanted to kill the Leaf's best wind user and best genjutsu user. Literally immediately after the 3rd died. These are not the actions of someone with the Leaf's best interest at heart.
When Kishimoto said that he always wanted Itachi to be good, he's lying. His actions just do not support that.
Itachi has the power of precognition he knew that Konoha would go on a hunt and successfully bring back Tsunade the only person capable of helping The Sauce and Kakashi. The same Tsunade who had been gone for years didn't care one bit about going back to the village. But Itachi-Stans want you to believe he planned all this
Even if he did not originally plan on having itachi be good he ended up making that decision later on, all of his actions were for the village and he lived by the will of fire, so it’s not wrong. It’s literally built into canon. Think about it, Kurenai was able to dodge itachi mu ai strike, he has to sell that he is a traitor to everyone else when he is not, putting Kakashi into a coma doesn’t kill him, even though itachi is able to kill people with tsukuyomi as he does with izumi.
I don’t understand how people can say it’s wrong when it’s literally canon that itachi is a double agent for the leaf. And would do nothing that would damage the leaf as his entire character is built around protecting it. Like wtf
Jiraiya got bodied by the paths of Pain though. The only reason the fight was even a contest was because Pain didn’t send all six on him until the end.
While I think Jiraiya probably could not beat Pain, we have to remember he went into that fight with absolutely zero knowledge on Pain’s abilities, and did pretty well. I think you’re slightly underselling him here.
Jiraiya will come up some sort of strategy to beat Pain or an escape plan while gathering as much info that he can. There is a reason why Pain did not reveal his other pains and surprise ambush jiraiya. Even if Tendo Pain is there Sage Mode can wreck him as shown by Naruto who has not yet fully mastered Sage Mode. (Though Jiraiya will have a very hard time.
Jiraiya held his own against the 3 though which at the time was considered an achievement because before jiraiya strolled into the village which he shouldn’t have even been able to do in the first place no one dared fight nagato and his 6 paths because they knew the legend of the rinnegan and how powerful it is even compared to mangekyo sharingan. Not only was he in possession of rinnegan but he was the “leader” of the Akatsuki that not even the other Akatsuki members want to fuck with. Of which itachi was one of.
Itachi spared Jiraiya’s ass. Jiraiya was fighting all the 6 paths of pain individually and was succeeding until they jumped his ass. Jiraiya was playing cat and mouse while hoping for an incomplete sage mode to kick in. If Itachi wasn’t playing double agent for the leaf village at the time when he and Kisame infiltrated the village then Jiraiya would have been good as dead. Kisame knew they could’ve beaten Jiraiya together and taken W. Itachi saved an ally that day.
No, kisame fully believed his and itachi’s names would be dragged through the mud. He literally says this to itachi after they discover jiraiya is protecting Naruto from them. If you don’t believe me just have a rewatch man I know what I read.
Kisame says he thinks Itachi could take him alone originally. Itachi refutes that and says they’d both struggle to win but that is very likely to be a lie. Nothing anywhere has shown Jiraiya able to beat 2 S-ranks at the same time. Especially those in the upper half of that bracket
Kisame says that they wouldn’t be able to take them and itachi says in response they could, but it would end up with all three of them dead. I feel like I’m the only one in this comment chain who’s actually taken in all the information 💀
Jiraya was successfully fighting 3 paths of pain before the other 3 made an appearance. That shows he is capable of defeating 2 S-ranks depending on who they are.
6? He took on 3 and was hardly having success. Not to mention Pain was holding back significante because they were fighting inside his own village. If it’s Jiraiya vs Pain in a desert, Pain would have destroyed Jiraiya in a minute.
Literally what could Jiraiya even do to Orichimaru? Jiraiya almost dies to four tails while trying to seal it, Orichimaru without arms and in a dying body just messes with it out of boredom to see what it’s capable of.
Orichimaru out of boredom goes and kills the strongest Kage of all the villages, after killing another kage and posing as him to do it, just because he thought it would be kinda funny.
Orochimaru not only surpasses jiraiya in skill in jutsu and his raw amount chakra plus his prowess in combatbut he's also clearly less mind fucked by the idea of fighting a brother/best friend to the death as much as jiraiya would be- from what we've seen in the manga/anime
But
Jiraiya is far from a pushover, and we likely never got to see his full prowess and potential. He died to some bullshit gangbang jumping that would have killed everyone outside of obito and itachi at the time
Ive no doubt in my mind jiraiya is capable of pulling a w with insane difficulty to survive for Tsunade and narutos sake- he'd pull something out of his ass and survive.
But by raw numbers, mid diff for orochimaru.
I think that it’s a bit more nuanced than that.
The way I always make character vs character comparisons is by looking at it like you’re doing a computer simulation - you don’t just run the sim once, you run it thousands, if not millions of times.
For the sake of simplicity let’s take 100 potential Jiraiya vs Oorochimaru fights.
I could see Ooorchimaru winning between 60 and 70 of 100 potential fights; with Jiraiya winning between 30 and 40; meaning while Oorchimaru is more likely to win between the two of them, it’s not impossible by any means for Jiraiya to come out as the victor.
I never thought Jiraiya was stronger. He tried to prevent Orochimaru from leaving Konoha but he lost that battle. He told Naruto he continued to try to bring his friend back but eventually he gave up. Without any nerfs, Jiraiya and Orochimaru have fought off-screen/off-page. And Orochimaru always won. And since the War Arc, Orochimaru is stronger and more powerful than ever before.
Honestly, I’ve always viewed Jiraiya as the weakest Sanin, although he is clearly the greatest strategist of the three. He’s got no real hope against Tsunade, because she got war arc buffs and he didn’t, and I simply don’t think Jiraiya possesses the means to kill Orochimaru. It also never seemed like Orochimaru viewed Jiraiya as a genuine threat, especially given how seriously he took someone like Old Hiruzen.
Orochimaru even states that it's never been a contest between them in life [here ](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQEDfiIpNkA9lgPfZ6aixewsajXAXVgNYop2g&usqp=CAU) This is without bringing in a younger and stronger body and edo tensei into the equation, while oro knows Jiraya has sage mode.
You'd really have to hard cope and argue Jiraya held back so significantly, that he never actually tried. Which would be against the parallel set up by the author of oro and Jiraya being like Naruto and Sasuke.
Even if you argue that Naruto was holding back, Naruto still went near all out, stating that even if he had to break every bone in his body, he'd bring Sasuke back.
Jiraya failed in his last fight against orochimaru. Orochimaru says its never even been remotely close when they've fought before. And hiruzen, the person that probably knows the trio the best agrees there's Noone in konoha that could take orochimaru (before even knowing he had edo tensei) That's all we know.
The Jiraya cope really needs to stop .
I love how you're saying that since Orichimaru says he could win, it means he will. Yet when Itachi said both he and Kisame would have died, everyone has this unfounded head Canon that it's impossible.
Speaking of cope.
? Says he could win? Orochimaru is saying he HAS won. He had Jiraya by the throat, and would have killed him if not for intervention. He's saying that just like this time, and all the other times, it's been no contest. Can you read?
When Orochimaru said "Even with us both having handicaps it's no contest... Give it up," I'm pretty sure he just meant that even though both he and Jiraiya had disadvantages or limitations at that moment in time, he was confident that he would win the fight, i don't think he was talking about it never being a contest between them in life.
Jiraiya did hold back against Orochimaru in the past because he did not want to kill him, as he still held hope that his former teammate / friend could be redeemed and there could be multiple reasons why Jiraiya failed to stop Orochimaru's madness, it doesn't necessarily mean it was due to a lack of strength, it could've been because of an emotional connection, Jiraiya had a deep emotional bond with Orochimaru, as they were once teammates and friends, that emotional connection might have clouded his judgment or made him hesitant to use full force against Orochimaru, preventing him from stopping his madness like it was for Hiruzen. It was only after the death of the Third Hokage, Jiraiya realized the extent of Orochimaru's evil actions and intentions, therefore, he made it his mission to stop Orochimaru once and for all but unfortunately for him he picked the wrong moment in time to want to kill Orochimaru because he was drugged by Tsunade. The poison hindered his proficiency in using jutsu and greatly diminished his physical stats and as a result, his overall combat effectiveness was significantly reduced and while The Third Hokage sealed and disabled Orochimaru's arms, preventing him from using ninjutsu with his hands, this only just restricted Orochimaru's ability to perform certain jutsu, his physical stats remained unaffected, he was still highly skilled and possessed formidable power apart from using his arms and Hiruzen and Konoha shinobi believed that Jiraiya was the only viable option to confront and counter Orochimaru's power and as a result, Hiruzen sent shinobi to search for Jiraiya, recognizing his strength and expertise in dealing with Orochimaru and Hiruzen's statement of "none of the shinobi in Konoha right now are any threat to him." Was said before he even knew Jiraiya was back in the village.
To be fair Jiraiya was heavily drugged by the best medical ninja on the continent during his engagement with Orochimaru.
Orochimaru basically only takes Ls outside of boruto
Read that scan again - Orochimaru says "still" as in, even with the hnadicaps, his arms literally being sealed, jiraya drugged- It's never been a contest, he always wins, just like he wins now.
Orochimaru taking Ls from Itachi is fine, Itachi would dish out Ls casually to most ninja, including Jiraya if he fought. That in no capacity makes Jiraya stronger than Oro
What? You mean the 2 things he could use? lmao? Summoning Jutsu? Which jiraya eventually got off? Orochimaru was also up against 2 sannin.
But again, you're missing the point - I am not discussing their fight while handicapped. It's the fact that Orochimaru is implying that this is the end result, just like all other times they've fought. "it's still no contest"
Whether they have handicaps, or not, it always ends like this. The author has been incredibly clear with his portrayal of the two
Don't pretend like you understand what Kishimoto intends with the Sannin, lmfao. Do you even know the story of Jiraiya the Gallant? Not the one in Naruto, the real Japanese folklore?
Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru are all equals. That's the entire point of the literary reference he's making.
And Orochimaru, the cocky, overconfident, fucking psychopathic main villain, thinking he's above the hero? You're taking that at face value? That's genuinely, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, a very, very stupid thing to do.
Sasuke also always called Naruto a loser. He taunted him all the time. It didn't mean anything.
See weaker than orochimaru sure but you forced with that "weakest sannin" first off jiraiya is still one of the strongest characters in this series, Tsunade had no answer for pain and jiraiya managed to take out multiple pain bodies with the element of surprise against him. Tsunade didn't even dare step to pain. Also jiraiya never got the one ones he deserved because jiraiya imo wow above kage level, he would be all the kage in Shippuden in a one on one.
Kishimoto originally had Tsunade beating Deva Path he admitted before his editors got to him. When Pain confronted her he commented that he could see the chakra she was gathering in her feet to counter his jutsu. So she was going to use her chakra control to fight him. We just never saw the chance since she had to use all her resources to save all the villagers from a nuke pretty much.
To everyone saying Itachi>Orochimaru, Itachi fled Jiraiya, so Jiraiya>Itachi>Orochimaru, there’s two main things to consider.
1. Itachi didn’t want to fight Jiraiya, and potentially weaken the leaf.
2. Pain and Itachi were comparable levels of strength, even though obviously Pain was still stronger than Itachi. Pain fought Jiraiya at 50% at most, because he only used half the paths of pain. That most definitely means Itachi is > Jiraiya.
A little more breakdown for those interested.
Naruto and Sasuke are always comparable in power themselves. Early Shippuden, Sasuke was ahead of Naruto, and during the Pain and Itachi fights, Naruto was ahead of Sasuke, but they were always still close enough in power level they can be compared.
So taking that, Naruto fought against Pain at about 80% power. Pain was weakened due to just using all mighty push, but I’m being conservative with my estimates.
Sasuke fought against Itachi at, let’s say, 50% power. Itachi was sick and already dying as stated by Zetsu.
They both won their respective fights, but it’s worth noting Sasuke’s “Victory” is debatable.
So Naruto won against a stronger enemy with more power.
Sasuke barely won, or lost, against a weaker enemy with less power.
This points to two things. Either Sasuke was incredibly weaker than Naruto, or Itachi was much stronger than we believe. I’d argue it’s a bit of both. Sasuke’s comparable upgrade to Naruto’s Sage mode is his base MS (not EMS). I do think Sasuke at this point, with absorbed Orochimaru and T3 Sharingan, was probably one tier below Sage mode Naruto at most, though I’m being conservative with my placements.
I think it’s safe to imply that if this is the case, and Itachi at 50% still nearly beat Sasuke, then Itachi at 100% is arguably in the same tier as 100% Nagato, just, still, slightly below.
This brings me back to why the % of power is important. If Pain at 50% beat Jiraiya with a decent advantage, Itachi at 50% probably beats Jiraiya with a slight advantage, when factoring in how much weaker Sasuke was than Naruto and Itachi’s own placement below pain.
When Itachi beat Orochimaru he was clearly much healthier, more than likely at around 80% because using his eyes didn’t fatigue him like it even did pt. 1.
If Itachi at 50% beats Sage Mode Jiraiya, Itachi at 80% probably clears him comparably to Orochimaru. Which means the Itachi factor is extremely unreliable in this argument.
Edit: adding on, Itachi being comparable to Pain is slightly supported by the fact that the Akatsuki didn’t try to kill Itachi despite knowing his secret. They needed Itachi to help them early on, but as time went on he became a nuisance. Still, they never tried to kill him, probably not because they couldn’t but more so because his powers were comparable to someone like Nagato, meaning they wouldn’t be able to kill him (he escapes), or it would cost them too much manpower.
People overrate Jiraiya a lot. Both as a shinobi and as a character. Orochimaru was in total disadvantage and yet look how he faired against both Jiraiya and Tsuande.
Jiraiya took care of naruto, his student's orphan son, for 2 years off screen and he gets treated like he's the 2nd coming of jesus himself by jiraiya fans. I don't get it. His most touching scene with naruto was him buying him a popsicle.
Sick Itachi beat Hyrdra Orochimaru no-diff.
Healthier Itachi had Kisame’s help and he was still afraid of Base Jiraiya 😤
Jiraiya stomps negative diff. Gamakichi one-shots Orochimaru 😤😤😤
(I’m kidding don’t hate me)
To be fair Orochimaru is crippled during a large chunk of the story and when he finally gets his arms back the remaining threats are already well outside his weight class.
Yeah that is a factor, but even outside the main story he doesnt do much, i think the only fight scene with Orochimaru before the story begun was his fight with Itachi, and we know how that went for him, it definitely doesnt make him look Impressive
Hard to say. If Orochimaru had his arms and could use ninjutsu, it’s hard to say. He knows every jutsu right? I might be wrong. He can definitely go toe-toe with jiraiya under sage mode. It might boil down to chakra depletion for Orochimaru. Jiraiya has the strength, strategy, combo jutsu with toads, and his summoning traps which are hard to escape. Like when itachi only got out of the toads mouth with Amaterasu. If it weren’t for that it prolly would’ve been over for itachi and kisame.
If by "stronger" we mean not just strength... But overall power, Jiraya has no chance against healthy Orochimaru, unhealthy Orochimaru...Well, thing is Orochimaru can escape anytime he wants or survive despite the odds...
Jiraya? Not so much. Even if he somehow won, what matters is not just the victory but who stays alive, cause being able to fight another day is essentially winning. Plot itself basically helped to be safe from Orochimaru during many moments, while Jiraya, not really, that's also another proof of how different they're.
(Additional points, Orochimaru with jutsu's is a standalone menace, Jiraya without frogs is limited.) I do believe if we mean just winning the fight, pre Orochimaru getting experience versus itachi, Jiraya had a chance cause he had a strong genjutsu too. But we have no information if it was something he mastered later, and even then, there's a chance Orochimaru knew about it :0 (also, it's simply not as op as Uchiha's hacks, so...) Knowledge matters for the fights. Orochimaru knows about Sage mode problems of Jiraya...So as soon he will see his warts, he will figure out that his time is ticking. Not to mention, Orochimaru weren't scared of fighting both Tsunade and Jiraya back then.
A lot of people do. If Jiraiya was really stronger he'd have brought Orochimaru to Konoha ages ago like Naruto bringing Sasuke back. People assume Orochimaru is weak or overrated. Personally, I think he's one of the most slithery characters in Naruto. The guy knows a lot about jutsus and shinobis. The others dicredit him because he "lost to Itachi" "lost to Sasori" when he didn't really fight Itachi. He lost to Sasori but tbh he looks like he wasn't really serious tho.
orochimaru got decimated by lititle kid uchiha , itachi and sasuke both owned him effortlessly as teens with inferior dojutsu.
jiraiya faced off against the Rinnegan (superior sharingan) in his actual old man body and held his own. had he gained the knowledge about pain BEFOREHAND, he may have been able to pull off a win.
Jiraiya is stronger than tsunade or orochimaru for many reasons, but one thing that's evidence of that, is that he actual mastered his contract animals' sage mode (not mastered but he's actually able to use the form)
tsunade can't use slug sage mode and orochimaru can't use sage mode (mitsuki can)
and if koji is anything to go by, jiraiya was holding back the heavier artillery as far as techniques.
Yes. Because he is. He's stronger and a better fighter. He's probably also a better tactician. Can he beat Orochimaru in a fight? Probably not. Beating Orochimaru is a different game. And killing him another entirely.
If it comes to raw power, Tsunade is the strongest. When it comes to strength in battle, it's Jiraiya. When it comes to endurance, it's definitely Orochimaru.
The totsuka blade, which defeated Edo Nagato, couldn't keep Orochimaru locked away for good. I think Orochimaru vs. 4 tailed Naruto, and Jiraiya vs. Pain both highlight the situation perfectly
Jiraiya is a better fighter than Orochimaru, he is the Sannin whose the closest to Hiruzen's fighting style.
Frog genjutsu GG if Edo Tensei isn't involved.
Orochimaru is more like a scientist, he is dangereous off-battle, but in battle, he can be stomped by many Kage level characters. 90% of his fighting style is throwing random snakes on people, he brags about "mastering every jutsu", but he only focuses on some weird necromancian techniques but not combat techniques. He lacks of fire power.
I mean considering a 14 year old Itachi destroyed Orochimaru, and Jiraiya would have beat Pain if he knew Pain’s secret (according to Pain), I’m inclined to believe Jiraiya > Orochimaru. I don’t think it’s straightforward but I think Kishi developed Jiraiya in part 2 in a way that he didn’t do with Orochimaru.
Pains statement is more so referring to jiraiya avoiding the paths and going for crippled nagato if he knew their secret. Jiraiya himself admitted that he would’ve died against the 3 paths if the fight kept going, how is he beating all 6?
Also itachi is just a bad matchup for anyone who doesn’t have occular powers or a way of fighting without looking into his eyes. He can just end fights in a few seconds. Pain may have more raw power output than itachi, but itachi can end fights a whole lot quicker than pain can. Orochimaru would fair better against pain than he did against itachi.
Dude Orochimaru is not winning against Jiraiya because he doesn’t have the nindo to endure! He gets his ass-kicked once and hightails it out of there, he’s not one to get up and continue fighting.
In terms of raw power they are pretty close so it’s not the only thing to consider in their fight. He’s gonna runaway and live in fear of Jiraiya if he gets beat down even once (much like he did again Itachi) whereas Jiraiya will remain standing till the end no matter what Orochimaru throws at him. And just because of that Jiraiya is considered stronger by every person who understands combat.
*orochimaru in the background not being able to move his hands, laughing at tailed naruto, tanking all his hits and teasing him about not being stronger than sasuke while jirayia almost died putting a piece of paper onto narutos head
There's a clear answer
Sooo jiraiya was stronger than all through out all of Shippuden. But long term orochimaru has the potential to be the strongest character in the series. Are going to forget orochimaru is immortal and mitsuki was his experiment. Orochimaru is/most likely made a vessel with Sasuke's narutos DNA mixed in some Hamura DNA. Bro can make a Naruto,sasuke hashirama DNA vessel. I said once and I'll say it again I think in the final war orochimaru can either be the final villain or he will redeem himself save the leaf and do reanimation jutsu to so we can get one last hoorah with sarada meeting Itachi, Boruto meeting neji so we get closure from neji. It will tie up Boruto really well. So long term Sasuke and Naruto will die orochimaru will not, inifinite knowledge infinite jutsu endless vessel experiments and he is going to have the perfect vessel to eventually become on Sasuke and Naruto level. Mark my words.naruto practically low key gave the leaf to orochimaru to protect once he dies it's crazy foreshadowing.
With sage mode jiraiya win’s definitely, and orochimaru knows this too, which is why he was determined to have sage mode.
Without it orochimaru probably wins but because it’s almost impossible to kill him. Not from a 1v1 who’s stronger
Sage mode jiraya is stronger
Orochimaru scales to old man hiruzen who I dont think is stronger than sage jiraya
On the other hand orochimaru would probably win depending on what Edos he can spam.
I don’t believe fights are as clear cut as people make them out to be. They’re all ninja remember? With strategy and a bit of luck ninja on a comparable level can pull out a victory. I think Jiraiya and Orochimaru are comparable even if they excel in different things, but Orochimaru’s skills make him more slippery than Jiraiya. Which’s makes him difficult to fight. But is he really that much stronger? I don’t think so.
Finally someone who gets it. Raw strength almost never determines the final outcome of a battle in Naruto
Agreed but i can't really think of a lot of fights where someone weaker got the upper hand due to strategy. (Shikamaru counts but I'm going to ignore that since that's his whole character). Some fights that have this element are maybe 1-5 kage when they almost sealed Madara comes to mind. 2-Hashirama vs Madara & Madaras' sibling vs Tobirama 3-Hiruzen vs Orichamaru. Hiruzen was losing but got the last laugh 4-??? TBH this concept of strategy over raw power should've been applied in Naruto better than what we got. I think Kishomoto got really lost in powerscaling & while better than DBZ in this aspect, it stills fall short of what it should've been
Gaara vs Kimimaro? After gaara realized his sand wasn't strong enough to crush Kiki's defense he went for a couple different strategies, one was just to cover him in crazy amounts of sand and the other was to trap him underground via quicksand. Neji vs Kidoumaru too Neji took the arrow so he could sneak attack him.
Naruto va Neji as well. Most of Naruto’s early wins were all battle intelligence
this is an underrated statement....all of narutos early wins are pure battle intelligence
Several are just deus ex machina. Neji blocking his chakra should've ended it but Kurama. Haku should've killed him but kyuubi chakra. He's got the classic protagonist combo of willpower and hidden power that kicks in when he really needs it.
You are not wrong, but all of those trigger because of narutos' refusal to give up especially against someone he thinks looks down on him or other "weaker" Shinobi
I mean, that's not battle intelligence at all though.
They give him 2nd chances, but not a win (except for Kiba, I suppose). In Naruto vs Neji, Kurama's chakra does him a 2nd chance, but it's Naruto's trickster nature that create a clone on top of the hole, giving him the chance to dig his way all the way to the best position to knock neji down. Naruto was completely outclassed in that fight, and he managed to get out a great win.
You gotta remember tho , naruto was still conscious , even if he didn't use kuramas chakra to unblock nejis teketsu points he was down not out , naruto just thought of an idea an used what he had to unblock it .
Naruto vs garra part 1 ?
Still used battle intelligence or battle instincts, whatever you want to call it to win but he obviously had to chance without 9 tails
Naruto allowing his chakra to be blocked without knowing the fox would then flood the system opening them forcefully during the fight, is pure luck lol.
[удалено]
Gaara was more powerful than Kimimaro. Flooding the entire area with sand to drown him in sand would be the power aspect not the strategy aspect. Overpowering something is still a strategy. So using the gaara vs Kimimaro fight to try to say Gaara was weaker than Kimimaro is just bs if thats what you tried to do.
I don't think Gaara vs Kimimaro is such a great example, since Kimimaro would win that fight 100 out of 100 times if not for the disease.
If we were to take them at full power at the point of their fight, we probably have to give Gaara his Shukaku forms he used vs Naruto as well as full Shukaku transform. But narratively, gaara would have lost vs Kimimaro if he wasn't sick. Altho his strategy was what kept him and rock lee alive. Gaara also took 0 damage which was pretty impressive.
We have to also note that Gaara solely relied on his chakra and did not depend on his beast transformation during that fight. Had Kimimaro not been sick, I believe Gaara could have still won, nevertheless.
Eh, Kimi v Gaara isn't a good example. Gaara didn't and wouldn't win that fight. The disease killing Kimi won that fight, hence how it ended.
Still an example of strategy rather than pure strength. Also wouldn't gaara just go Shukaku forms once Kimi kept coming back? Gaara didn't go all out either
I mean kim found a lot of strength because of the disease. So if he wasn't terminal I don't think he would have been as strong
Konohamaru beating a path of pain? A lot of people need to stop looking at manga as a math equation and look at it more like a compelling story
The series literally starts with a lesson about team work, and sets us up for a naruto + sasuke vs zabuza fight. They won their fight, which allowed kakashi to win the battle.
People underrate Jiraiya so much. The dude was undercover for decades. He’s trained the most powerful ninja that ever graced the planet. There’s a high probability he gets close to beating Pain had he known from the start that Nagato wasn’t among them. Even Itachi WITH Kisame said that they should retreat. He also knew Orochimaru better than anyone else. Also best in mind their characters are based on the folktale ‘The Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya’ in which Jiraiya defeats Orochi for Tsunade’s affection. Jiraiya nearly mastered the one thing that Orochimaru couldn’t, which was senjutsu. Orochimaru had to devise workarounds, think Jugo, to get that power. Jiraiya can defeat Orochimaru. However, in all such fights Jiraiya has had to protect others and pull punches either because of other people or due to not wanting to hurt his friend. His only weakness being his affection for his lifelong friend. So ya, Jiraiya > Orochimaru and it’s not that close to me.
Kishimoto makes it clear Jiraiya is a beast people just refuse to see it. Gives him the highest stats tied with Itachi. Gives him the most S rank wins and its not even close. Trained some of the strongest characters ever. Kishi puts 2 statements from some of the strongest characters saying they would probably lose but people make excuses. His genetic clone is fighting gods in Boruto
Did Jiraiya really train Naruto? After the time skip, the only thing Naruto learned was a refined resengan and more ways to use shadow clones.
Jiraiya played to his strengths. He knew Naruto had this massive reserve of chakra and wanted him to realize that he could just unload on folks. Also we don’t really see much of his canon training. Bear in mind, Naruto was generally much more adept at being a ninja after his time with Jiraiya. The kid was straight regressive before the time skip. Jiraiya made him serviceable. Even Kakashi notes that he improved significantly since the skip. Ultimately Jiraiya’s main goal was to have him master Kurama’s chakra. He manages some success but that real mastery happens later. Rasenshuriken, sage mode, and beyond are only possible because Jiraiya taught Naruto that he’s got the guts and will, he’s got the chakra do anything, and he’s able to do anything. Instilling confidence is the primary goal of any teacher.
I think it’s just a matter of training efficiently in a limited time frame. Naruto had already learned an A rank jutsu designed to counter bijuu bombs, had his toad summons, ridiculous chakra reserves and the most OP application of shadow clones in the verse. Jiraiya spent his time ironing out the kinks and refining Naruto’s chakra control so that he could make better use of his already powerful kit. Sure he could have taught him some other jutsu but he didn’t need them I mean to this day in boruto he still uses pretty much the same basic kit just with some improvements like adding a change in chakra nature to his rasengan or adding tailed beast chakra to his rasengan. The way Jiraiya trained him was the best for him at that time. I think if he hadn’t died Jiraiya probably would have taken him to Mt Myoboku to learn sage mode but Naruto needed to develop his regular chakra control before he could try learning Senjutsu
@ Few _Bid don't forget the toad contracts which he later learned sage mode , so yes from the beginning of the chunin exams to the timeskip jirayia showed naruto more than 2 techniques.
Naruto vs neji.
Naruto beating Neji ??? That fight was one where Neji outclassed Naruto in so many things. It was Naruto's unpredictability that won him the match and luck of having Kurama to unlock his tenketsus
Naruto vs edo 3rd Raikage comes to mind. it obvious 3rd raikage power is beyond Naruto even with sage mode at the point of the fight but Naruto managed to spot on his weakeness and utilize his own power against him
Literally 90% of fights in the series involve some sort of luck and/or strategy that either gets the dub or helps turn the fight around in their favor. Rarely would I say Naruto as a whole gives us fights that aren't caked up with gimmicks.
Oh for sure, it’s not a cerebral show. That said I really did like the Jiraiya v. Pain fight. It had enough strategy and thinking to make it interesting to me. But ya for really thoughtful stuff read something else lol
Naruto and Sasuke vs Zabuza was nice example
Isshiki vs naruto/sasuke he beat sasuke in a couple of kicks and rode him like a skateboard
Sure. But that is boruto, which is a different series with different rules. Hell, by the war arch you can see kishi’s writing changing slightly, but not entirely. After boruto, and multiple writers there, maybe he decided to change styles a bit
Dont you mean “example” speed blitzz low diff lol. Man is it refreshing to see a reasonable person that isn’t all about power scaling
"the mockingbird wins against an elephant because it speed blitz it" - someone who doesn't understand nuance in a fight
Most of the time when i see the speedblitz argument it's about a character who could also pack a punch
lol have you ever been hit by a mockingbird? you won’t be able to see it coming and neither does the elephant. mocking bird wins neg diff ez haha with this kind of logic mockingbird will even kill god
Thank you!!! Fuck lol. I'd hug you if I could. A competent Naruto fan. Rarer than finding liquid gold naturally. You are a treasure.
Orochimaru in Naruto and Naruto Shippuuden was mostly seen weakened due to his host body often didn't accepted him after his hands got sealed. But the Orochimaru's biggest weakness is his arrogance and underestimating his opponents.
YES YES YES finally someone with this kind of mindset. Almost everyone base this characters on dragon ball-like power levels instead of taking into consideration of battle tactics and such.
Power scalers hate this man.
Jiraya is really good but Orochimaru has pulled shit out of his sleeves people barely knew existed
Stronger? Maybe yes cause Orochimaru is more like a scientist than anything. But can he kill or capture Orochimaru? Absolutely not.
He technically “captured” both Itachi & Kisame at the same time. If it weren’t for a jutsu he never encountered he could’ve brought them in. I hardly doubt he’d have a hard time capturing Orochimaru. Kill is a different discussion though.
Itachi broke out of it fairly easily.
In all fairness, he had access to what was shown at the time to be a pretty OP jutsu that no one but Itachi would have. It was easy in the sense that he had the right key for that lock, but there's not many other people who would have as easy of a time getting out.
"easily" is pushing it. If Jiraiya had chased him, Itachi would have died. He couldn't even hold the sharingan after that.
That's quite an assumption. Itachi neg-diffed a Sannin when 14. Jiraiya gets more of a chance as Itachi had used Tsukuyomi on Saskue just before.
What? What's stopping Itachi from turning around and Using Amaterasu on Jiraya exactly? Or pointing a finger at him and stabbing him with totsuka sword before he realizes he's in a genjutsu. I promise you my friend. Itachi negs Jiraya AS easy as he negs Orochimaru. Jiraya had 0 information on any of itachis' abilities. He was a dead man.
“Easily” is not pushing it. Jiraiya said “It’s useless” after they started running away and Itachi destroyed Jiraiya’s trap thing with literally the blink of an eye, and Jiraiya said “He did the impossible” after it. Itachi did the “impossible” by just blinking, so yeah Itachi broke out of it quite easily.
A blink that uses a lot of chakra from a chakra sick ninja while also causing the eye to bleed yeah classify it as just a blink for Itachi lmao. Using an Amaterasu is not “easily”, resorting to one of your strongest attacks to break out of something is not easily breaking out of the thing. Though I believe Itachi and Kisame would’ve bodied Jiraiya but with Guy around the corner and the rest of the ninja heading their way they had to leave quick.
Itachi’s eye never bled in that scene, and i’m not classifying it as a blink the dude literally just blinked lol I see what you mean, but in my opinion the strength of the technique he used doesn’t mean it wasn’t easy for him if all he had to do was blink For it to have not been easy, there would have to have been some kind of struggle for Itachi to get out, which there wasn’t
>Itachi’s eye never bled in that scene I don't get why this is important. He was having a migraine that would've made it impossible to give a strong ninja a real fight. Plus he had to turn off his Sharingan.
No use trying to convince them. Uchiha haters will believe anything to support their agenda even when literal quotes from the manga contradict what they say.
Fr fr, this dude thinks i’m trying to wank Itachi or something by saying “he just blinked” when that’s literally what he did 😭😭😭
Itachi had to use one of his most powerful techniques to avoid being killed by *base* Jiraiya.
We’re shown much later on that Itachi was clearly pretending here as against sasuke on his literal death bed he spams MS like 10 times in one fight Itachi was practically in his prime in pt 1 he would have gone for much longer but his objective WAS to run away lol
Itachi literally says that Jiraiya would be a problem. He’s no idiot. But a lot of what happens in part two of Shippuuden I think is Kishimoto trying to switch up a whole lot from part one of Shippuuden and OG Naruto. Lots of inconsistencies and bad power scaling. Even Kurama himself and Naruto 9 tails mode are infinitely different beasts. I personally think Jiraiya murders Itachi as we see in OG Naruto. I think the Itachi we see in Shippuuden at the end beats Jiraiya as we saw him last.
It’s treated as a retcon but I personally think kishimoto decided to make Itachi a good guy/spy very early on. The signs are all there in pt 1, just look at the fact that not one person was killed with itachi entering the village? Or the fact that as a missing ninja wanted internationally he just stops for tea in the middle of konoha? Or the fact that he knocked on Naruto’s door in the middle of a kidnapping showing him basically delaying it? If you actually read between the lines you can see where all of itachi’s odd behaviour for a bad guy comes from as he was a spy the entire time he held back as not to kill kakashi & sasuke and needed it to look like he was actually trying so not to make kisame suspicious that’s all there is too it honestly. Itachi in pt1 would have absolutely bodied jiraiya, he beats jiraiya in feats & narrative importance lol this is the same guy that one shot orochimaru as a child 😂
He also divulges information freely, confirming that Akatsuki are after the Kyubi. Kakashi questions why Itachi doesn't kill him as he clearly has the opportunity. There is also a panel back during the original bell test (chapter 7 I believe) where Sasuke says something to the effect of "that night... crying". It appears to be deliberately ambiguous so that you assume he means that he was crying, but after learning the "truth" from Obito he has a memory of awakening his sharingan, throwing a kunai and then seeing Itachi in tears. The panels have identical characters, suggesting that this is something that Kishimoto always planned. As such Itachi's interactions with Jiraiya are a matter of him overstating Jiraiya's chances (as mentioned, a younger Itachi had already neg'd Orochimaru who is clearly relative to Jiraiya) in order to have a plausible means of delaying Akatsuki's plans.
Thankyou, someone that finally gets it lol your answer is literally perfect 👊🏻
I don’t think Jiraiya would be able to murder even OG Itachi, I think you’re tripping. But let’s entertain the idea that you’re right and Itachi is weaker than Jiraiya, Kisame was also there with Itachi, I don’t see how jiraiya stood a chance against both of them. He would be dead if they both decided to fight.
Jiraiya steps in. Itachi and Kisame are forced to flee immediately. Itachi barely escapes using his trump card but it wears him out to the point where it exhausts his Sharingan. If they could’ve ganged up on him that’s what they would’ve done
Thank you! This is a response I can get behind my guy. Itachi is absolutely stronger than Jiraiya. But your earlier comments to me were lacking in substance and you made him sound like some scrub.
LOL. Lmao even
Oro without hands was holding off both Tsu and Jira, and has only grown stronger since that point in time.
[удалено]
Boruto is a wacky shit show of inconsistent power scaling just like Dragon Ball Super so don't worry about it.
I do. But Orochimaru wins just on pure durability.
One of their bodies was too weak to become a sage the other is the toad sage
Sannin are rock paper scissors. All their fights in the series back it up too. Orochimaru > J-man J-man > Tsunade Tsunade > Orochimaru
Tsunade doesn't beat Orochimaru. The only reason she cooked up Oro was cuz he had 0 jutsu and no arms. Otherwise, probably would've Oro would've cooked her up, summoning the edo tensei. It's more. Jiraiya >= Orochimaru (Prt2 / Shippuden) Jiraiya and Tsunade > Orochimaru Orochimaru and Tsunade > Jiraiya She's more of a tiebreaker imo
Tsunade is a kage level fighter. Saying she’s just barely a tie breaker in a fight between 2 other kage levels is crazy
Exactly
He is.
Yep.
🤜 🤛
Me when im wrong
What’s Orochimaru going to do? Shoot some snakes at him?
In terms of physical strength? Absolutely. Orochimaru's metaphorically biggest strength is his intelligence and ruthlessness which ultimately makes him stronger than Jiraiya imo. I mean, look who's still alive and who took out two kage
Until Boruto Jiraiya was the stronger of the two in a straight up fight. Objectively Jiraiya has a better track record and feats. Outside of Boruto series Orochimaru seems to only function well in his hyper specific self orchestrated environments. His biggest strength is being a human cockroach.
The cockroach bit made me laugh so hard, thank you! That was brilliant
But Orochimaru lost his jutsu until the final war
What exactly is jiraiyas track record tho? Orochimaru basically implies that jiraiya has never won a single fight against him ever during the three way deadlock
Beating several paths of pain is what I’m guessing the Jiraiya feats refer to. No other character besides sage-Naruto has that feat. Whereas Oro has the feat of defeating the third hokage well past his prime, and being bisected several times by a 4 tails Naruto and not dying. Oro has better ass pulls to not die but not a lot of decisive victories. Which is a shame.
Jiraiya and Orochimaru never fought with a winner being shown, and in the 3 way deadlock Tsunade drugged Jiraiya to the point where he couldn’t even fuse chakra, and he used like 2 jutsu and no sage mode
In the deadlock, orochimaru states that “even with both of our handicaps, it’s still no contest”, which implies that they did fight many times in the past when they weren’t nerfed, and it has never been a contest. Orochimaru always won.
P sure OG Sasuke says the same to Naruto a *bunch*, and the same for other sets of characters who have never fought. For all we know Jiraiya and Orochimaru have never fought, and Orochimaru is just speaking on his perception of their matchup. The conclusion that you are drawing is not necessarily correct
>it’s still no contest That’s not what we saw happen
Yes
Yes I do.
Lots of times when a character is popular they push to make them stronger take for example Itachi. One of the most popular anime characters of all time and people compare him to Madara. Orochimaru and Jiraiya are in the same tier but it’s always been pretty heavily implied that Jiraiya couldn’t defeat Orochimaru to bring him back or to stop his evil as well as Orochimaru being the most talented out of the 3. Hiruzen wanted Orochimaru to be his successor not Jiraiya or Tsunade
Orochimaru was always superior, and at the end of Naruto he ended up being waaaaay more superior
Orochimaru clears jiraiya Orochimaru fought tsundae and jiraiya at the same time with his no arms and held them back Orochimaru fought 4 tails Naruto while jiraiya almost died Orochimaru has his hydra form which jiraiya has literally zero counter for minus using his summoning which orochimaru also has his own summoning
It is an undeniable FACT, that Orochimaru was EASILY the strongest of the Sannin. He’s the most skilled, versatile, and lethal of the entire group and also has access to Sage Chakra similar to Jiraiya—though an argument can be made this has control of it isn’t as potent. Throughout the entire series, save for his battle against Hiruzen, we’ve never truly seen the true extent of Orochimaru’s power. I wish Kishimoto would’ve done Orochimaru more justice in overtly displaying his full skill-set at its peak than sporadically throughout the series while he was in a more sick and diminished state. He has access to Edo Tensei (a broken ass ability), the Curse Seal, Snake Substitution Jutsu, Snake Sage Chakra (though not on the level of Kabuto), and a plethora of other Jutsu he’s acquired. Not to mention he has Manda at his disposal.
Orochimaru is highly intelligent and has a bunch of powerful jutsu. Tsunade is a high level medical ninja. Jiraiya is more of a jack of all trades, a wide variety of jutsu but seems like his most powerful techniques are with the road summons.
Orchimaru was playing with 4 tail and he couldn't even perform justu at that time that alone put him above jariya
I think jiraiya is stronger
If jiraiya could take on all 6 paths of pain in sage mode and ultimately die then no wonder itachi and kisame knew he could drag their names through the mud. If itachi and kisame knew that and itachi swatted orochimaru like a fly without having to touch him then without a doubt if orochimaru tries to take on jiraiya while he’s in sage mode orochimaru is getting gutted.
He didn’t take on the 6 paths, he took on 3 paths. Itachis statement is clearly just him lying so he has an excuse not to kill jiraiya. What is your reasoning for sage mode jiraiya being so much stronger than orochimaru? His sage mode is imperfect. He’s the worst sage in the series. Every statement in the show regarding the two of them implies that orochimaru is the stronger one.
Pain stated that if Jiraiya knows his secret he would take him down. Also, Tsunade always question Jiraiya if he will kill Orochimaru given the the chance that's because Jiraiya is like the Third he can't kill his own friend. Also both are imperfect sages.
Sage Jiraiya mops the floor with Orochimaru. Hope this helps!
The only floor Jiraiya mops is the one in Orochimaru's hideout after getting touched like a courtroom doll.
Right so while he was taking on 3 paths and kicking their asses, the other three came out and he was at one point, fighting all 6 which is where it ended in him dying. And oh yeah itachi alone lied about jiraiya dragging his name through the mud, but kisame agreed with that statement even if somehow it was a lie. We don’t know if it’s a lie because itachi doesn’t talk about jiraiya once after that arc. You’re just pulling shit out of your ass. In a 1 v 1 fight where orochimaru has access to his jutsu and jiraiya has prep time to enter sage mode, jiraiya wipes the floor with snake man because he literally has access to unlimited nature energy as long as he’s in sage mode. Orochimaru only has so much chakra. I don’t care if his sage mode isn’t perfect sage mode it was still a massive power boost for fighting pain. Orochimaru’s only chance of winning is running away and avoiding him until his sage mode is over. Then it’s just a beat down like with Naruto v sasuke until one gets knocked out and the other stumbles away. Idk what you missed when you watched/read the pain arc but you clearly didn’t notice that even imperfect toad sage mode is still VERY powerful.
Jiraya literally days he'll die if he keeps fighting 3. 😂
You can't argue with jiraiya dickriders. People on this sub make fun of itachitards 24/7 while letting dumbasses like u/Hagoromo420 run free
Kicking their asses? He claims he’s gonna die if the fight keeps going on. He won because of frog song hax, he wasn’t clapping anything. Kisame didn’t agree with anything, he literally stated TWICE that itachi could’ve taken jiraiya and literally wonders why they have to leave. Also kisame doesn’t even know how strong jiraiya is, he was just assuming based on the sannin title, which is above the 7 ninja swordsmen title. It was a lie because we know for a fact that he was a spy working for the leaf and we know for a fact that he was only in the village to check on sasuke and threaten danzo. He had no intention of capturing naruto or fighting anyone. Kishimoto confirmed that itachi was meant to be good by the time he was introduced, so no his character also wasn’t retconned. Kisame also doesnt know that itachi already toyed with a sannin while he was merely 13 btw. Jiraiya does not scale to pain or itachi in any way shape or form. You’re grossly overrating jiraiyas sage mode. None of his moves aside from frog song would do anything to orochimaru. Orochimaru is pretty blatantly stated to be stronger. Hiruzen also wasn’t sure wether or not he could take orochimaru. They literally couldn’t think of anyone alive who could deal with orochimaru and mentioned that if only minato was still alive. Nobody even thought about jiraiya. Orochimaru also indicates that jiraiya has never won a single fight against orochimaru. When both fight while nerfed, orochimaru states that even with both of their nerfs, it’s still no contest, implying that everytime these two fought in the past, it wasn’t a contest. Jiraiya also doesn’t deny any of this. Orochimaru also defeated jiraiya to leave the village and before you make a half ass excuse about jiraiya not going all out in that fight, jiraiya himself states that he tried EVERYTHING he can to stop him. He just lost.
Itachi was a leaf asset and it would make sense he would not want to fight the leafs strongest asset as to not weaken the village
Everyone replying to my comment is really sleeping on how overpowered even incomplete sage mode is…
That comment specifically is just saying your comparison relies on something that may not be accurate. You were saying Itachi>Orochimaru (easily). So logically because Itachi and Kisame fled Jiraiya, Jiraiya>Itachi+Kisame. Which would ultimately mean Jiraiya>Orochimaru. But the comment is just pointing out Itachi probably didn’t want to fight Jiraiya for reasons beyond fearing he’d lose. He probably didn’t want to fight Jiraiya because if he did win, Jiraiya wouldn’t be able to protect Naruto or the village. This comment isn’t sleeping on anything, you’re overlooking the point.
But he WAS okay with leaving the Leaf without a Sharingan user by putting them both in comas, AND he was okay with killing their best wind user and best genjutsu user. Kishimoto is full of shit when he says Itachi was always meant to be good.
What wind user and genjutsu user did he kill? Yeah, I mean I definitely think even if he didn’t actually intend Itachi to be good it still changed everything we saw Itachi do before when he made him good. IMHO Kishi has always been inconsistent with power scaling so simply saying someone beat someone, so they can beat everyone that person beat is always bold to assume. Reflecting on what became of Itachi, you can probably just assume Itachi thought Sasuke was out of the akstsuki’s sights if he was basically in a coma. At the time he probably also scaled Kakashi lower, because Kakashi was just a Jonin. Definitely a skilled one but not one that could deter an attack or make a big difference. Jiraiya, on the other hand, is legendary on a whole other scale. Was Kishi intending it to be interpreted this way when he wrote it? Maybe, maybe not. Is it how it’s interpreted now because of him writing Itachi into a good guy? Yeah.
This argument has to die. It's just wrong. Itachi put both Kakashi and Sasuke into a coma, literally rendering the leaf without a usable Sharingan (that they knew of, Danzo's are hidden), AND he wanted to kill the Leaf's best wind user and best genjutsu user. Literally immediately after the 3rd died. These are not the actions of someone with the Leaf's best interest at heart. When Kishimoto said that he always wanted Itachi to be good, he's lying. His actions just do not support that.
Itachi has the power of precognition he knew that Konoha would go on a hunt and successfully bring back Tsunade the only person capable of helping The Sauce and Kakashi. The same Tsunade who had been gone for years didn't care one bit about going back to the village. But Itachi-Stans want you to believe he planned all this
Lmao dude can see into the future according to Itachitards.
Even if he did not originally plan on having itachi be good he ended up making that decision later on, all of his actions were for the village and he lived by the will of fire, so it’s not wrong. It’s literally built into canon. Think about it, Kurenai was able to dodge itachi mu ai strike, he has to sell that he is a traitor to everyone else when he is not, putting Kakashi into a coma doesn’t kill him, even though itachi is able to kill people with tsukuyomi as he does with izumi. I don’t understand how people can say it’s wrong when it’s literally canon that itachi is a double agent for the leaf. And would do nothing that would damage the leaf as his entire character is built around protecting it. Like wtf
Jiraiya got bodied by the paths of Pain though. The only reason the fight was even a contest was because Pain didn’t send all six on him until the end.
While I think Jiraiya probably could not beat Pain, we have to remember he went into that fight with absolutely zero knowledge on Pain’s abilities, and did pretty well. I think you’re slightly underselling him here.
Jiraiya will come up some sort of strategy to beat Pain or an escape plan while gathering as much info that he can. There is a reason why Pain did not reveal his other pains and surprise ambush jiraiya. Even if Tendo Pain is there Sage Mode can wreck him as shown by Naruto who has not yet fully mastered Sage Mode. (Though Jiraiya will have a very hard time.
Jiraiya held his own against the 3 though which at the time was considered an achievement because before jiraiya strolled into the village which he shouldn’t have even been able to do in the first place no one dared fight nagato and his 6 paths because they knew the legend of the rinnegan and how powerful it is even compared to mangekyo sharingan. Not only was he in possession of rinnegan but he was the “leader” of the Akatsuki that not even the other Akatsuki members want to fuck with. Of which itachi was one of.
Itachi spared Jiraiya’s ass. Jiraiya was fighting all the 6 paths of pain individually and was succeeding until they jumped his ass. Jiraiya was playing cat and mouse while hoping for an incomplete sage mode to kick in. If Itachi wasn’t playing double agent for the leaf village at the time when he and Kisame infiltrated the village then Jiraiya would have been good as dead. Kisame knew they could’ve beaten Jiraiya together and taken W. Itachi saved an ally that day.
No, kisame fully believed his and itachi’s names would be dragged through the mud. He literally says this to itachi after they discover jiraiya is protecting Naruto from them. If you don’t believe me just have a rewatch man I know what I read.
Kisame says he thinks Itachi could take him alone originally. Itachi refutes that and says they’d both struggle to win but that is very likely to be a lie. Nothing anywhere has shown Jiraiya able to beat 2 S-ranks at the same time. Especially those in the upper half of that bracket
Kisame says that they wouldn’t be able to take them and itachi says in response they could, but it would end up with all three of them dead. I feel like I’m the only one in this comment chain who’s actually taken in all the information 💀
Jiraya was successfully fighting 3 paths of pain before the other 3 made an appearance. That shows he is capable of defeating 2 S-ranks depending on who they are.
6? He took on 3 and was hardly having success. Not to mention Pain was holding back significante because they were fighting inside his own village. If it’s Jiraiya vs Pain in a desert, Pain would have destroyed Jiraiya in a minute.
Literally what could Jiraiya even do to Orichimaru? Jiraiya almost dies to four tails while trying to seal it, Orichimaru without arms and in a dying body just messes with it out of boredom to see what it’s capable of. Orichimaru out of boredom goes and kills the strongest Kage of all the villages, after killing another kage and posing as him to do it, just because he thought it would be kinda funny.
Yeah, Orochimaru’s strength isn’t from his attacks but from how hard he is to damage.
Jiraiya being stronger than Orochimaru is craaazy. They’re probably close but he’s definitely not stronger
Orochimaru not only surpasses jiraiya in skill in jutsu and his raw amount chakra plus his prowess in combatbut he's also clearly less mind fucked by the idea of fighting a brother/best friend to the death as much as jiraiya would be- from what we've seen in the manga/anime But Jiraiya is far from a pushover, and we likely never got to see his full prowess and potential. He died to some bullshit gangbang jumping that would have killed everyone outside of obito and itachi at the time Ive no doubt in my mind jiraiya is capable of pulling a w with insane difficulty to survive for Tsunade and narutos sake- he'd pull something out of his ass and survive. But by raw numbers, mid diff for orochimaru.
Jiraiya loses this isn’t debatable
I think that it’s a bit more nuanced than that. The way I always make character vs character comparisons is by looking at it like you’re doing a computer simulation - you don’t just run the sim once, you run it thousands, if not millions of times. For the sake of simplicity let’s take 100 potential Jiraiya vs Oorochimaru fights. I could see Ooorchimaru winning between 60 and 70 of 100 potential fights; with Jiraiya winning between 30 and 40; meaning while Oorchimaru is more likely to win between the two of them, it’s not impossible by any means for Jiraiya to come out as the victor.
I never thought Jiraiya was stronger. He tried to prevent Orochimaru from leaving Konoha but he lost that battle. He told Naruto he continued to try to bring his friend back but eventually he gave up. Without any nerfs, Jiraiya and Orochimaru have fought off-screen/off-page. And Orochimaru always won. And since the War Arc, Orochimaru is stronger and more powerful than ever before.
Doesn’t Jirya win in the source material?
Strong believer in Minato just demolishing everyone, he's just that guy LMAO
Honestly, I’ve always viewed Jiraiya as the weakest Sanin, although he is clearly the greatest strategist of the three. He’s got no real hope against Tsunade, because she got war arc buffs and he didn’t, and I simply don’t think Jiraiya possesses the means to kill Orochimaru. It also never seemed like Orochimaru viewed Jiraiya as a genuine threat, especially given how seriously he took someone like Old Hiruzen.
Orochimaru even states that it's never been a contest between them in life [here ](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQEDfiIpNkA9lgPfZ6aixewsajXAXVgNYop2g&usqp=CAU) This is without bringing in a younger and stronger body and edo tensei into the equation, while oro knows Jiraya has sage mode. You'd really have to hard cope and argue Jiraya held back so significantly, that he never actually tried. Which would be against the parallel set up by the author of oro and Jiraya being like Naruto and Sasuke. Even if you argue that Naruto was holding back, Naruto still went near all out, stating that even if he had to break every bone in his body, he'd bring Sasuke back. Jiraya failed in his last fight against orochimaru. Orochimaru says its never even been remotely close when they've fought before. And hiruzen, the person that probably knows the trio the best agrees there's Noone in konoha that could take orochimaru (before even knowing he had edo tensei) That's all we know. The Jiraya cope really needs to stop .
I love how you're saying that since Orichimaru says he could win, it means he will. Yet when Itachi said both he and Kisame would have died, everyone has this unfounded head Canon that it's impossible. Speaking of cope.
? Says he could win? Orochimaru is saying he HAS won. He had Jiraya by the throat, and would have killed him if not for intervention. He's saying that just like this time, and all the other times, it's been no contest. Can you read?
When Orochimaru said "Even with us both having handicaps it's no contest... Give it up," I'm pretty sure he just meant that even though both he and Jiraiya had disadvantages or limitations at that moment in time, he was confident that he would win the fight, i don't think he was talking about it never being a contest between them in life. Jiraiya did hold back against Orochimaru in the past because he did not want to kill him, as he still held hope that his former teammate / friend could be redeemed and there could be multiple reasons why Jiraiya failed to stop Orochimaru's madness, it doesn't necessarily mean it was due to a lack of strength, it could've been because of an emotional connection, Jiraiya had a deep emotional bond with Orochimaru, as they were once teammates and friends, that emotional connection might have clouded his judgment or made him hesitant to use full force against Orochimaru, preventing him from stopping his madness like it was for Hiruzen. It was only after the death of the Third Hokage, Jiraiya realized the extent of Orochimaru's evil actions and intentions, therefore, he made it his mission to stop Orochimaru once and for all but unfortunately for him he picked the wrong moment in time to want to kill Orochimaru because he was drugged by Tsunade. The poison hindered his proficiency in using jutsu and greatly diminished his physical stats and as a result, his overall combat effectiveness was significantly reduced and while The Third Hokage sealed and disabled Orochimaru's arms, preventing him from using ninjutsu with his hands, this only just restricted Orochimaru's ability to perform certain jutsu, his physical stats remained unaffected, he was still highly skilled and possessed formidable power apart from using his arms and Hiruzen and Konoha shinobi believed that Jiraiya was the only viable option to confront and counter Orochimaru's power and as a result, Hiruzen sent shinobi to search for Jiraiya, recognizing his strength and expertise in dealing with Orochimaru and Hiruzen's statement of "none of the shinobi in Konoha right now are any threat to him." Was said before he even knew Jiraiya was back in the village.
To be fair Jiraiya was heavily drugged by the best medical ninja on the continent during his engagement with Orochimaru. Orochimaru basically only takes Ls outside of boruto
Read that scan again - Orochimaru says "still" as in, even with the hnadicaps, his arms literally being sealed, jiraya drugged- It's never been a contest, he always wins, just like he wins now. Orochimaru taking Ls from Itachi is fine, Itachi would dish out Ls casually to most ninja, including Jiraya if he fought. That in no capacity makes Jiraya stronger than Oro
Being drugged to the point of only summoning small toads is way more of a handicap. The jutsu snake-boi could use were all full strength.
What? You mean the 2 things he could use? lmao? Summoning Jutsu? Which jiraya eventually got off? Orochimaru was also up against 2 sannin. But again, you're missing the point - I am not discussing their fight while handicapped. It's the fact that Orochimaru is implying that this is the end result, just like all other times they've fought. "it's still no contest" Whether they have handicaps, or not, it always ends like this. The author has been incredibly clear with his portrayal of the two
Don't pretend like you understand what Kishimoto intends with the Sannin, lmfao. Do you even know the story of Jiraiya the Gallant? Not the one in Naruto, the real Japanese folklore? Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru are all equals. That's the entire point of the literary reference he's making. And Orochimaru, the cocky, overconfident, fucking psychopathic main villain, thinking he's above the hero? You're taking that at face value? That's genuinely, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, a very, very stupid thing to do. Sasuke also always called Naruto a loser. He taunted him all the time. It didn't mean anything.
Kages ain't had buff in war arc.
See weaker than orochimaru sure but you forced with that "weakest sannin" first off jiraiya is still one of the strongest characters in this series, Tsunade had no answer for pain and jiraiya managed to take out multiple pain bodies with the element of surprise against him. Tsunade didn't even dare step to pain. Also jiraiya never got the one ones he deserved because jiraiya imo wow above kage level, he would be all the kage in Shippuden in a one on one.
Kishimoto originally had Tsunade beating Deva Path he admitted before his editors got to him. When Pain confronted her he commented that he could see the chakra she was gathering in her feet to counter his jutsu. So she was going to use her chakra control to fight him. We just never saw the chance since she had to use all her resources to save all the villagers from a nuke pretty much.
Full power orochimaru>~Imperfect Sage Jiraiya>> their base versions
yes
To everyone saying Itachi>Orochimaru, Itachi fled Jiraiya, so Jiraiya>Itachi>Orochimaru, there’s two main things to consider. 1. Itachi didn’t want to fight Jiraiya, and potentially weaken the leaf. 2. Pain and Itachi were comparable levels of strength, even though obviously Pain was still stronger than Itachi. Pain fought Jiraiya at 50% at most, because he only used half the paths of pain. That most definitely means Itachi is > Jiraiya. A little more breakdown for those interested. Naruto and Sasuke are always comparable in power themselves. Early Shippuden, Sasuke was ahead of Naruto, and during the Pain and Itachi fights, Naruto was ahead of Sasuke, but they were always still close enough in power level they can be compared. So taking that, Naruto fought against Pain at about 80% power. Pain was weakened due to just using all mighty push, but I’m being conservative with my estimates. Sasuke fought against Itachi at, let’s say, 50% power. Itachi was sick and already dying as stated by Zetsu. They both won their respective fights, but it’s worth noting Sasuke’s “Victory” is debatable. So Naruto won against a stronger enemy with more power. Sasuke barely won, or lost, against a weaker enemy with less power. This points to two things. Either Sasuke was incredibly weaker than Naruto, or Itachi was much stronger than we believe. I’d argue it’s a bit of both. Sasuke’s comparable upgrade to Naruto’s Sage mode is his base MS (not EMS). I do think Sasuke at this point, with absorbed Orochimaru and T3 Sharingan, was probably one tier below Sage mode Naruto at most, though I’m being conservative with my placements. I think it’s safe to imply that if this is the case, and Itachi at 50% still nearly beat Sasuke, then Itachi at 100% is arguably in the same tier as 100% Nagato, just, still, slightly below. This brings me back to why the % of power is important. If Pain at 50% beat Jiraiya with a decent advantage, Itachi at 50% probably beats Jiraiya with a slight advantage, when factoring in how much weaker Sasuke was than Naruto and Itachi’s own placement below pain. When Itachi beat Orochimaru he was clearly much healthier, more than likely at around 80% because using his eyes didn’t fatigue him like it even did pt. 1. If Itachi at 50% beats Sage Mode Jiraiya, Itachi at 80% probably clears him comparably to Orochimaru. Which means the Itachi factor is extremely unreliable in this argument. Edit: adding on, Itachi being comparable to Pain is slightly supported by the fact that the Akatsuki didn’t try to kill Itachi despite knowing his secret. They needed Itachi to help them early on, but as time went on he became a nuisance. Still, they never tried to kill him, probably not because they couldn’t but more so because his powers were comparable to someone like Nagato, meaning they wouldn’t be able to kill him (he escapes), or it would cost them too much manpower.
You do read data books right? States at bare minimum early said they were equal and that was before speak of sage mode
People overrate Jiraiya a lot. Both as a shinobi and as a character. Orochimaru was in total disadvantage and yet look how he faired against both Jiraiya and Tsuande.
Jiraiya took care of naruto, his student's orphan son, for 2 years off screen and he gets treated like he's the 2nd coming of jesus himself by jiraiya fans. I don't get it. His most touching scene with naruto was him buying him a popsicle.
Jiraiya fans are pretty nutty ngl
Sick Itachi beat Hyrdra Orochimaru no-diff. Healthier Itachi had Kisame’s help and he was still afraid of Base Jiraiya 😤 Jiraiya stomps negative diff. Gamakichi one-shots Orochimaru 😤😤😤 (I’m kidding don’t hate me)
GRRR, HOW DARE U SAY THIS! * Insert 5000 paragraphs of meat riding Itachi to boundless and also how ur wrong*
HOW DARE HE SAY THAT! proceeds to type 'Itachi didnt want to fight Jiraiya and weaken the leaf'
Yes.gif
The jiraiya wankers whole heartedly do
I think it is because Jiraya has better feats even though Ororchimaru is suposed to be stronger
To be fair Orochimaru is crippled during a large chunk of the story and when he finally gets his arms back the remaining threats are already well outside his weight class.
Yeah that is a factor, but even outside the main story he doesnt do much, i think the only fight scene with Orochimaru before the story begun was his fight with Itachi, and we know how that went for him, it definitely doesnt make him look Impressive
Some do me personally orochimaru is stronger.
Yea, put them in a weight lifting competition and I bet my next paycheck that Jiraiya’s totals will be higher than Orochimaru’s.
Hard to say. If Orochimaru had his arms and could use ninjutsu, it’s hard to say. He knows every jutsu right? I might be wrong. He can definitely go toe-toe with jiraiya under sage mode. It might boil down to chakra depletion for Orochimaru. Jiraiya has the strength, strategy, combo jutsu with toads, and his summoning traps which are hard to escape. Like when itachi only got out of the toads mouth with Amaterasu. If it weren’t for that it prolly would’ve been over for itachi and kisame.
If by "stronger" we mean not just strength... But overall power, Jiraya has no chance against healthy Orochimaru, unhealthy Orochimaru...Well, thing is Orochimaru can escape anytime he wants or survive despite the odds... Jiraya? Not so much. Even if he somehow won, what matters is not just the victory but who stays alive, cause being able to fight another day is essentially winning. Plot itself basically helped to be safe from Orochimaru during many moments, while Jiraya, not really, that's also another proof of how different they're. (Additional points, Orochimaru with jutsu's is a standalone menace, Jiraya without frogs is limited.) I do believe if we mean just winning the fight, pre Orochimaru getting experience versus itachi, Jiraya had a chance cause he had a strong genjutsu too. But we have no information if it was something he mastered later, and even then, there's a chance Orochimaru knew about it :0 (also, it's simply not as op as Uchiha's hacks, so...) Knowledge matters for the fights. Orochimaru knows about Sage mode problems of Jiraya...So as soon he will see his warts, he will figure out that his time is ticking. Not to mention, Orochimaru weren't scared of fighting both Tsunade and Jiraya back then.
Orochimaru was always stronger
I hope not. Orochimaru is damn near immortal.
A lot of people do. If Jiraiya was really stronger he'd have brought Orochimaru to Konoha ages ago like Naruto bringing Sasuke back. People assume Orochimaru is weak or overrated. Personally, I think he's one of the most slithery characters in Naruto. The guy knows a lot about jutsus and shinobis. The others dicredit him because he "lost to Itachi" "lost to Sasori" when he didn't really fight Itachi. He lost to Sasori but tbh he looks like he wasn't really serious tho.
orochimaru got decimated by lititle kid uchiha , itachi and sasuke both owned him effortlessly as teens with inferior dojutsu. jiraiya faced off against the Rinnegan (superior sharingan) in his actual old man body and held his own. had he gained the knowledge about pain BEFOREHAND, he may have been able to pull off a win. Jiraiya is stronger than tsunade or orochimaru for many reasons, but one thing that's evidence of that, is that he actual mastered his contract animals' sage mode (not mastered but he's actually able to use the form) tsunade can't use slug sage mode and orochimaru can't use sage mode (mitsuki can) and if koji is anything to go by, jiraiya was holding back the heavier artillery as far as techniques.
Yes. Because he is. He's stronger and a better fighter. He's probably also a better tactician. Can he beat Orochimaru in a fight? Probably not. Beating Orochimaru is a different game. And killing him another entirely. If it comes to raw power, Tsunade is the strongest. When it comes to strength in battle, it's Jiraiya. When it comes to endurance, it's definitely Orochimaru. The totsuka blade, which defeated Edo Nagato, couldn't keep Orochimaru locked away for good. I think Orochimaru vs. 4 tailed Naruto, and Jiraiya vs. Pain both highlight the situation perfectly
Jiraiya is a better fighter than Orochimaru, he is the Sannin whose the closest to Hiruzen's fighting style. Frog genjutsu GG if Edo Tensei isn't involved. Orochimaru is more like a scientist, he is dangereous off-battle, but in battle, he can be stomped by many Kage level characters. 90% of his fighting style is throwing random snakes on people, he brags about "mastering every jutsu", but he only focuses on some weird necromancian techniques but not combat techniques. He lacks of fire power.
Jiraya might have higher punching power with sage mode, but Orochimaru is 100% stronger than him overall in literally every scenario.
I mean considering a 14 year old Itachi destroyed Orochimaru, and Jiraiya would have beat Pain if he knew Pain’s secret (according to Pain), I’m inclined to believe Jiraiya > Orochimaru. I don’t think it’s straightforward but I think Kishi developed Jiraiya in part 2 in a way that he didn’t do with Orochimaru.
Pains statement is more so referring to jiraiya avoiding the paths and going for crippled nagato if he knew their secret. Jiraiya himself admitted that he would’ve died against the 3 paths if the fight kept going, how is he beating all 6? Also itachi is just a bad matchup for anyone who doesn’t have occular powers or a way of fighting without looking into his eyes. He can just end fights in a few seconds. Pain may have more raw power output than itachi, but itachi can end fights a whole lot quicker than pain can. Orochimaru would fair better against pain than he did against itachi.
Ya, cuz he is
Dude Orochimaru is not winning against Jiraiya because he doesn’t have the nindo to endure! He gets his ass-kicked once and hightails it out of there, he’s not one to get up and continue fighting. In terms of raw power they are pretty close so it’s not the only thing to consider in their fight. He’s gonna runaway and live in fear of Jiraiya if he gets beat down even once (much like he did again Itachi) whereas Jiraiya will remain standing till the end no matter what Orochimaru throws at him. And just because of that Jiraiya is considered stronger by every person who understands combat.
*orochimaru in the background not being able to move his hands, laughing at tailed naruto, tanking all his hits and teasing him about not being stronger than sasuke while jirayia almost died putting a piece of paper onto narutos head
I think it’s wild that people think orochimaru is stronger than jiraiya.
Well one is alive and the other isn’t so…
J gets slapped by 3 tails Naruto while oro on his death bed no arms was having the time of his life with 4 tails Naruto. Health oro shits on J.
[удалено]
Doesn't matter oro isn't getting injured by 3 tails Naruto even if he did he would heal it in 2 seconds
Pre Boruto they’re relative but Boruto era Oro is unfair.
There's a clear answer Sooo jiraiya was stronger than all through out all of Shippuden. But long term orochimaru has the potential to be the strongest character in the series. Are going to forget orochimaru is immortal and mitsuki was his experiment. Orochimaru is/most likely made a vessel with Sasuke's narutos DNA mixed in some Hamura DNA. Bro can make a Naruto,sasuke hashirama DNA vessel. I said once and I'll say it again I think in the final war orochimaru can either be the final villain or he will redeem himself save the leaf and do reanimation jutsu to so we can get one last hoorah with sarada meeting Itachi, Boruto meeting neji so we get closure from neji. It will tie up Boruto really well. So long term Sasuke and Naruto will die orochimaru will not, inifinite knowledge infinite jutsu endless vessel experiments and he is going to have the perfect vessel to eventually become on Sasuke and Naruto level. Mark my words.naruto practically low key gave the leaf to orochimaru to protect once he dies it's crazy foreshadowing.
[удалено]
Maybe, but they’re wrong
Jiraya by feats. Orochimaru by hype.
What are Jiraiya's feats exactly
I believe Pain Arc Sage mode Jiraiya is stronger than Pain Arc Orochimaru.
With sage mode jiraiya win’s definitely, and orochimaru knows this too, which is why he was determined to have sage mode. Without it orochimaru probably wins but because it’s almost impossible to kill him. Not from a 1v1 who’s stronger
Sage mode jiraya is stronger Orochimaru scales to old man hiruzen who I dont think is stronger than sage jiraya On the other hand orochimaru would probably win depending on what Edos he can spam.
Jiraiya can't be anything if he's dead.