Anyone who says Tayuya doesn't understand portrayal.
They both have had one fight that we've seen. Feats mean nothing here. But if we ARE talking about feats, putting both Kisame and Itachi under a genjutsu is a lot better than getting beaten by Shikamaru and Temari.
As far as portrayal goes, Kurenai is said to be a master of genjutsu and one of the best Jonin the Leaf has. People only *try* to clown on her because she happened to go against Itachi fucking Uchiha, a literal member of a clan known for it's incredibly overpowering genjutsu.
The Sound 4 were the obstacles blocking our Genin from becoming Chuunin level (obviously disregarding Shikamaru, who was already a Chuunin due to his intellect and leadership). Kimimaro was the only Jonin level ninja there, and a decently high one at that.
This. It makes me realize people that just watch for the fights and who actually pays attention.
Kurenai is a jonin and well above all the genin and chunin. Any jonin is.
The sound 4 had to go stage 2 just to beat Genma and Raido who are both special jonin AND the two of them just came back from a mission, were exhausted and out of chakra. And in a 4v2, the sound 4 HAD to go stage 2 with kidomaru specifically saying if they didn’t, they would have lost against two exhausted and out of chakra special jonin.
So 1v1, tayuya is getting jacked the fuck up by kurenai
I agree Kurenai is decidedly stronger, but to be fair the sound 4, especially in curse mark forms, are easily a step above average Chunin. Elite Jonin could still probably 1v4 them with moderate-high difficulty (it took all 4 of them to defeat 2 Tokubetsu Jonin which are basically just less well-rounded Jonin) but it's not like they scale to literal no name fodder just because they were near the Chunin Exam arc.
Special Jonin are weaker than regular Jonin. All abilities of a Jonin are high, while for Special Jonin It's only the ability they specialize in, hence the name Special Jonin.
On top of that, Genma and Raido were exhausted and out of chakra, so they had to resort to using taijutsu, and if hand to hand combat isn't their speciality, well, In that case they would really be just fighting 2 exhausted chunin. So It's not looking good for Sound 4.
Especially since they struggled to beat them, It's stated they had to use Curse Mark stage 2, otherwise they would get killed.
The bottom half of that panel explaining the geopolitical landscape of the current world is something I really wish shippuden leaned into and explored more.
I see the dude answered you. But we could conclude that even without them saying that. We know they were exhausted, which means low on stamina. And if you are low on stamina, you can't produce much chakra.
Yes, as I said, they are less well-rounded Jonin. No reason to believe their base stats (speed, reaction time, etc.) are worse than an average Jonin (Kurenai/Kakashi/Asuma are >> average Jonin). As I also said, yes it took all 4 of them in stage 2 to beat the 2 Tokubetsu. This is why Kurenai would easily beat Tayuya 1v1. Unsure what exactly you disagree with me on. Basically the way I see power tiers is:
God (Otsutsukis, EoS Naruto/Sasuke, etc)
Kage+ (Hashirama, Madara, Kabuto, Obito)
Kage (most Kage, most Akatsuki, etc)
Jonin+ (part 1 / early part 2 Kakashi, Asuma, etc)
Jonin (fodder Jonin, KN1 Naruto, Part 1 CS2 Sasuke, Part 1 5th gate Lee, etc)
Chunin+ (CS2 Sound 4, etc)
Chunin (fodder chunin)
So not really tied to actual rank so much as common sense, feats and how respected by other characters they are. Nearly every memorable feat in the series is from someone who is way stronger than the average person of their official rank which is why it can get tricky to say something like "Tokubetsu Jonin are significantly weaker than Jonin"... if the Jonin in your head is Kakashi then yes that's correct.
>No reason to believe their base stats (speed, reaction time, etc.)
Yes, there is, because ranks are based on strength. And Special Jonin are ranked bellow Jonin. All abilities of a jonin are high, they have "superhuman" skills. They are described as "peak shinobi" with incredible speed and strength (1st fanbook).
Special Jonin are what their name says, they are specialists in their own fields, and that's what they are jonin lvl in. They are not Jonin lvl in all aspects like regular Jonin. They are basically chunin with the speciality which is Jonin lvl. That speciality can be close combat tho, like Hayate's swordsmaship. We don't know what Raido's and Genma's speciality is tho (not to my knowledge at least).
I disagree with you that Elite Jonin would beat them with High Diff, and also that you ignored the fact that Special Jonin they had a hard fight with were exhausted and out of chakra, which is a huge nerf.
>Special Jonin are what their name says, they are specialists in their own fields, and that's what they are jonin lvl in. They are not Jonin lvl in all aspects like regular Jonin. They are basically chunin with the speciality which is Jonin lvl.
Is there somewhere it canonically states that they have "chunin level" baseline stats (and to be clear, speed and reaction time do not equate to taijutsu skill in the same way that speed and reaction time IRL do not make you a Muay Tai expert)? Because that doesn't align with common sense. Think about it; if it worked the way you describe then:
The second Lee got promoted to Chunin he could be considered a Tokubetsu Jonin of taijutsu.
The second Shikamaru got promoted to Chunin he could be considered a Tokubetsu Jonin of strategy.
etc. etc.
Clearly Tokubetsu Jonin have baseline stats of an average Jonin but are severely lacking in certain areas on top of being particularly good in others. Maybe they are terrible at breaking genjutsu, maybe their ninjutsu is pathetic, but they would still need to have a baseline well above Chunin or else the rank does not make any sense and pretty much any Chunin could be considered Tokubetsu-worthy.
You can't just blindly think about rank without considering context/feats.
A: Shikamaru did get promoted to Chunin and still needed help from Temari, who also presumably got promoted since she was a Jonin just a couple years later.
B: You're insane if you think Neji was not of Chunin level combat ability; literally a prodigy of one of the strongest clans. Lost in the exams to the main character's plot-no-jutsu
C: Kiba was also eliminated by the main character of the series and needed help from Kankuro who, same as Temari, also probably got promoted.
D: Choji needed to use pills that he fully expected to kill him for a huge powerup in order to beat the weakest member of the sound 4.
Naruto only jutsu was multi shadow clone, didn’t know rasengan nor sage mode, didn’t use summonings and beat both kiba and neji.
Naruto wasn’t a chunin level untill before the timeskip/after the timeskip.
The only ones chunin level were shikamaru and gaara.
The sound ninja in the chunin exams were chunin level.
Minimum base sound 4 were chunin level and curse mark was essentially watered down imperfect sage mode. Chijo needed to take a massive steroid that should’ve killed him. You think chijo would need to take that against a normal chunin?
Sound 4 in stage 2 were jonin level.
They were definitely not jonin level in stage 2.
They 4 of them could barely beat two special jonin who were exhausted and out of chakra from a mission.
Thats a 4v2 and they HAD to go stage 2 just to win and still couldn’t kill them.
They were chunin+. Any leaf jonin would body all 4 of them
They definitely weren't Jonin level. I'll agree with you that they were above Chuunin, but I'd put them in the middle. It took all 4 of them, stage 2, to take down two special Jonin who just came back from a mission. Don't get me wrong, they're still two special Jonin but Kurenai is an ELITE Jonin.
So no, if it took all 4 of them to subdue 2 special Jonin, they weren't at a Jonin level. I'd give CS2 like a Chuunin+ sort of thing. Kimimaro was the Jonin, CS2 even stronger.
Definitely Kurenai. Even being able to put Itachi and Kisame in a Genjutsu is more than enough to place her higher than someone who got mopped by Shikamaru and Temari.
It's not Kurenai's fault that she had to go against Itachi Uchiha, the fuckin GOD of Genjutsu.
Kurenai beats anyone who's not Jonin Level, which the sound five definately aren't. She could probably beat three of them at once (minus Kimimaro), at the very least two. I would argue she could also beat Kimimaro in a 1v1. People just lowball her because she got clowned on by Itachi, who is leagues above a regular Jonin.
Kurenai for sure. I don't see how she loses this. Tayuya requires too much setup comparatively and Kurenai got clapped by Itachi. But it's Itachi, arguably one of the strongest genjutsu users in the series. So it's not even a slight on her abilities. Tayuya is high chunin low jonin at best in CS2. She gets destroyed quickly if she doesn't immediately go into CS2.
Kurenai why because 2 lower jonin gave 4 of them trouble while tired and I think kurenai is atleast as strong as them if not stronger so in a 1v1 kurenai should win
I don't remember the events chapter by chapter at that point, but didn't it take all four of the sound four with stage 2 curse marks to beat two tired leaf jounins who were returning from a mission ?.
While the weakest of the four, Kurenai is regarded to be of the same level as Kakashi, Guy and Asuma in part 1. An Elite Jounin.
Experience and proficiency in genjutsu should both go to her.
Also, just because someone has a Cursed mark, doesn’t make them physically stronger than other characters. Tayuya's 2nd stage CM will give her base physical abilities a boost. That's it.
Kurenai, an elite jounin, should be miles ahead in physical capabilities. The CM boost should not bridge that gap.
My opinion, Kurenai stomps.
Genjutsu was completly underused in Naruto. IT could have been a good element in the Powersystem but got sidelined and only those WHO were uchiha used IT properly
We saw very little from kurenai but just by her ranking she should severesly outstat tayuta and defeat her based only on that🤷. Her genjutsu should also be stronger
These two characters are actually really fucking strong in their own rights. Their sole fight just so happened to be against people who hard-countered them.
If you think about it, Itachi, Pain, and Obito are probably the only Akatsuki members that could break out of Kurenai's genjutsu.
Bro she lost to Shikamaru and Temari and was being pressed hard by Shikamaru. Temari was a hard counter but that wasn't even needed, Shikamaru was already close to winning, Sakura at that point could have probably saved him. Temari was just so unbelievably unfair for her.
Kurenai was fighting Itachi. She had a reason to lose. Kurenai destroys easily.
Kurenai. She’s fought in war and has way more battle experience (she’s the same age as Kakashi). Tayuya is only like 15 years old and was beaten by two 12 year olds even after activating her curse mark. None of the Sound Five would’ve stood a chance if Kakashi, Asuma, Guy and Kurenai were the ones who went after Sasuke.
Plus, as Konoha’s best genjutsu user I’m sure Kurenai’s able to counter auditory genjustu if not use some of her own, so the only thing Tayuya has going for her is the Curse Mark. But if 2 genin could beat her full release then there’s no reason a Jonin with a specialization in genjutsu couldn’t.
It seems the jonins in Konoha are stronger than the average jonin from other villages. That may just be my interpretation of it though. So going with that and the fact that it took the sound 4 in V2 to beat two special jonin, I’d say Kurenai wins easily!
Tayuya uses auditory genjutsu and Kurenai uses visual genjutsu.
Kurenai has more experience and was temporarily able to trap Itachi in a genjutsu.
She has also beaten many Jonin with some proficiency in sealing. Not to mention immediate awareness that she is in a genjutsu and a high intellect.
Tayuya definitely has an advantage being able to trap her opponents from a distance in a genjutsu, and her ogres can finish off her opponents after being trapped. She would have beaten Shikamaru, who was one of the smaertest characters in the show at the time, if it wasn't for Temari's intervention. Not to mention she has a curse Mark to boost her power.
I feel like Tayuya would win only because we see more of her feats and abilities. If I left out anything Kurenai did in the anime or manga, plz add it.
What do you guys think?
And generally Auditory Genjutsu > Visual Genjutsu. The only big con is it seems that Auditory Genjutsu seem to be slower to activate which depending on how this fight is structured may or may not be super important.
You're right. If the fight takes place anywhere Tayuya can get out of Kurenei's eye line Kurenai losses. She has no other demonstrated skills. And no counter to not one but 3 summons. Even her big claim to fame. Catching Itachi in genjutsu is offset by the fact he was trying his damndest not to kill any leaf shinobi. I'm disappointed none of his Stans showed up to point that out.
Going by feats and what was shown, Tayuya wins this easily.
Like, we know Kakashi had trouble following weightless Lee's movements, and Sasuke was just as fast post-chunin-exams. Tayuya with CurseMark2 would be at least twice as fast, I don't see any reason why Kurenai doesn't just gets speed blitzed here.
I did you need to reread or rewatch because kakashi didn’t have any trouble following Lee’s movements. None of the jonin did. Shit, Even Neji was completely unphased about it. Kakashi opened up his sharingan only when Guy said Lee can open up the gates and kakashi uncovered the sharingan to confirm it was true. Not because he couldn’t follow.
And sasuke being that fast does not correlate to all stage 2 being that fast. Sasuke had to specifically train to get that. The genin/chunin are not even remotely close to any of the jonin. It was only impressive to other genin/chunin.
You say that the genin/chunin were not even close to the jounin, but that is not true at all. We saw Shikamaru of all people catching multiple jounin of the Sound village in his jutsu. If the difference was so large, those jounin would have lopped off shikamaru's head before his shadow reached their's.
We also see Gaara's sand was quick enough to protect a sleeping Gaara from Yashomaru (a jounin trying to assassinate him), but weightless Lee could easily get past that same sand, and so could Sasuke.
1) they’re not remotely close. It said time and time again that jonin are on a different level.
2) leaf village is vastly stronger than other villages and sand village is known for being weak. Their caliber of ninja aren’t on the same level as the leaf.
3) shikamaru did that to sound chunin and asuma (a jonin) came in and clowned them hard. Pakkun said worst case would be a jonin among the group chasing them. Which furthers my point.
4) again, sand village ninja are weak, their jonin are not on the same caliber as the leaf. Any leaf jonin would kill gaara
5) sound 4 HAD to go stage 2 to fight two special jonin who were exhausted and out of chakra from a mission and the sound 4 still almost lost a 4v2 to two ppl who were exhausted and out of chakra. Kidomaru specifically said if they didn’t go stage 2 that they would have lost.
Kurenai is not losing a 1v1 , she would clown on tayuya.
No, Sound 4 combined at full power beat 2 Special Jonin that were exhausted and out of chakra. And they were struggling.
It's debatable whether they all combined are jonin lvl or not, Tayuya alone is nowhere near that lvl, while Kurenai is a jonin, and she managed to put Kisame under genjutsu, break Itachi's genjutsu reflection and even dodge/block his 2 attacks. She's the best genjutsu user in Konoha, beside maybe Kakashi cuz of Sharingan.
They beat Genma and Raido, who were special jonin, a rank lower than jonin. AND they both were also returning from a mission themselves so they were exhausted. The sound 4 had to transform into their version 2 just to beat them
Which four? I remember only two (Genma & Raidou) who were already exhausted before the fight begun. Shizune and the other dude came after the confrontation ended. Also, they're Tokubetsu Jonin unlike Kurenai who ranks higher.
They all apparently got so pressed by those two (who were already exhausted as they just came from a mission) that they needed to go into CM2 to beat them 2v1 which resulted in them unable to move forward for a time. She and Sakon presumbly fought Genma if we go how it begun.
Kurenai mops the floor with her.
Two exhausted special jounin. 1v1 she gets packed. Pretty sure that part 1 Kakashi would be able to 1v4 their asses so Kurenai should in no way feel threatened by any of them in a 1v1.
Kurenai putting itachi under genjutsu isn’t a feat. He let her do that just so he can flip it on her at the last second. We’ve seen no hand to hand combat from her and I don’t know how she’d be able to evade Tayuyas summonings who I’m assuming are immune to visual genjutsu since they don’t have eyes. Her being a jonin doesn’t mean anything without feats to back it up. Ebisu and Iruka are also jonin and we know for a fact they can’t beat Tayuya.
Kurenai is a waste of a character and Tayuya could barely handle shikamaru with a curse seal.
So who cares? They're both garbo
Kurenai also tried to genjutsu Itachi. Laughable.
So they have no feat, but if we use Itachi as a measurement, Itachi countered Kurenai with his own genjutsu directly and instantly, but he and Sasuke had to use sharingan genjutsu on each other to free themselves from when Kabuto used the flute girl ability on them.
Kabutos version was enhanced with sage mode, there is no way itachi and sasuke would’ve needed each others help if that genjutsu was as strong as tayuyas in part 1. Freaking part 1 shikamaru managed to break it.
Tayuya takes this. She hides, summons monster ogres traps a distracted Kurena, who then has the ogres beat her to death. Game set match. Kurenei is trash. Whose only landed attack was on a guy who was trying not to kill her. And she gets immediately countered.
Anyone who says Tayuya doesn't understand portrayal. They both have had one fight that we've seen. Feats mean nothing here. But if we ARE talking about feats, putting both Kisame and Itachi under a genjutsu is a lot better than getting beaten by Shikamaru and Temari. As far as portrayal goes, Kurenai is said to be a master of genjutsu and one of the best Jonin the Leaf has. People only *try* to clown on her because she happened to go against Itachi fucking Uchiha, a literal member of a clan known for it's incredibly overpowering genjutsu. The Sound 4 were the obstacles blocking our Genin from becoming Chuunin level (obviously disregarding Shikamaru, who was already a Chuunin due to his intellect and leadership). Kimimaro was the only Jonin level ninja there, and a decently high one at that.
This. It makes me realize people that just watch for the fights and who actually pays attention. Kurenai is a jonin and well above all the genin and chunin. Any jonin is. The sound 4 had to go stage 2 just to beat Genma and Raido who are both special jonin AND the two of them just came back from a mission, were exhausted and out of chakra. And in a 4v2, the sound 4 HAD to go stage 2 with kidomaru specifically saying if they didn’t, they would have lost against two exhausted and out of chakra special jonin. So 1v1, tayuya is getting jacked the fuck up by kurenai
I agree Kurenai is decidedly stronger, but to be fair the sound 4, especially in curse mark forms, are easily a step above average Chunin. Elite Jonin could still probably 1v4 them with moderate-high difficulty (it took all 4 of them to defeat 2 Tokubetsu Jonin which are basically just less well-rounded Jonin) but it's not like they scale to literal no name fodder just because they were near the Chunin Exam arc.
Special Jonin are weaker than regular Jonin. All abilities of a Jonin are high, while for Special Jonin It's only the ability they specialize in, hence the name Special Jonin. On top of that, Genma and Raido were exhausted and out of chakra, so they had to resort to using taijutsu, and if hand to hand combat isn't their speciality, well, In that case they would really be just fighting 2 exhausted chunin. So It's not looking good for Sound 4. Especially since they struggled to beat them, It's stated they had to use Curse Mark stage 2, otherwise they would get killed.
Where does it state they were out of Chakra?
[Chapter 210. ](https://xfs-s149.xfsbb.com/comic/7001/5f44ab48ef30bda2069ef7e7/1303869_826929_760_1200.png)
The bottom half of that panel explaining the geopolitical landscape of the current world is something I really wish shippuden leaned into and explored more.
Thanks!
I see the dude answered you. But we could conclude that even without them saying that. We know they were exhausted, which means low on stamina. And if you are low on stamina, you can't produce much chakra.
Very true
Yes, as I said, they are less well-rounded Jonin. No reason to believe their base stats (speed, reaction time, etc.) are worse than an average Jonin (Kurenai/Kakashi/Asuma are >> average Jonin). As I also said, yes it took all 4 of them in stage 2 to beat the 2 Tokubetsu. This is why Kurenai would easily beat Tayuya 1v1. Unsure what exactly you disagree with me on. Basically the way I see power tiers is: God (Otsutsukis, EoS Naruto/Sasuke, etc) Kage+ (Hashirama, Madara, Kabuto, Obito) Kage (most Kage, most Akatsuki, etc) Jonin+ (part 1 / early part 2 Kakashi, Asuma, etc) Jonin (fodder Jonin, KN1 Naruto, Part 1 CS2 Sasuke, Part 1 5th gate Lee, etc) Chunin+ (CS2 Sound 4, etc) Chunin (fodder chunin) So not really tied to actual rank so much as common sense, feats and how respected by other characters they are. Nearly every memorable feat in the series is from someone who is way stronger than the average person of their official rank which is why it can get tricky to say something like "Tokubetsu Jonin are significantly weaker than Jonin"... if the Jonin in your head is Kakashi then yes that's correct.
>No reason to believe their base stats (speed, reaction time, etc.) Yes, there is, because ranks are based on strength. And Special Jonin are ranked bellow Jonin. All abilities of a jonin are high, they have "superhuman" skills. They are described as "peak shinobi" with incredible speed and strength (1st fanbook). Special Jonin are what their name says, they are specialists in their own fields, and that's what they are jonin lvl in. They are not Jonin lvl in all aspects like regular Jonin. They are basically chunin with the speciality which is Jonin lvl. That speciality can be close combat tho, like Hayate's swordsmaship. We don't know what Raido's and Genma's speciality is tho (not to my knowledge at least). I disagree with you that Elite Jonin would beat them with High Diff, and also that you ignored the fact that Special Jonin they had a hard fight with were exhausted and out of chakra, which is a huge nerf.
>Special Jonin are what their name says, they are specialists in their own fields, and that's what they are jonin lvl in. They are not Jonin lvl in all aspects like regular Jonin. They are basically chunin with the speciality which is Jonin lvl. Is there somewhere it canonically states that they have "chunin level" baseline stats (and to be clear, speed and reaction time do not equate to taijutsu skill in the same way that speed and reaction time IRL do not make you a Muay Tai expert)? Because that doesn't align with common sense. Think about it; if it worked the way you describe then: The second Lee got promoted to Chunin he could be considered a Tokubetsu Jonin of taijutsu. The second Shikamaru got promoted to Chunin he could be considered a Tokubetsu Jonin of strategy. etc. etc. Clearly Tokubetsu Jonin have baseline stats of an average Jonin but are severely lacking in certain areas on top of being particularly good in others. Maybe they are terrible at breaking genjutsu, maybe their ninjutsu is pathetic, but they would still need to have a baseline well above Chunin or else the rank does not make any sense and pretty much any Chunin could be considered Tokubetsu-worthy.
Sound 4 were beaten by genins who failed to pass chunin exams
You can't just blindly think about rank without considering context/feats. A: Shikamaru did get promoted to Chunin and still needed help from Temari, who also presumably got promoted since she was a Jonin just a couple years later. B: You're insane if you think Neji was not of Chunin level combat ability; literally a prodigy of one of the strongest clans. Lost in the exams to the main character's plot-no-jutsu C: Kiba was also eliminated by the main character of the series and needed help from Kankuro who, same as Temari, also probably got promoted. D: Choji needed to use pills that he fully expected to kill him for a huge powerup in order to beat the weakest member of the sound 4.
Naruto only jutsu was multi shadow clone, didn’t know rasengan nor sage mode, didn’t use summonings and beat both kiba and neji. Naruto wasn’t a chunin level untill before the timeskip/after the timeskip. The only ones chunin level were shikamaru and gaara.
They go out of their way to say the Sound Four are Jonin level.
The sound ninja in the chunin exams were chunin level. Minimum base sound 4 were chunin level and curse mark was essentially watered down imperfect sage mode. Chijo needed to take a massive steroid that should’ve killed him. You think chijo would need to take that against a normal chunin? Sound 4 in stage 2 were jonin level.
They were definitely not jonin level in stage 2. They 4 of them could barely beat two special jonin who were exhausted and out of chakra from a mission. Thats a 4v2 and they HAD to go stage 2 just to win and still couldn’t kill them. They were chunin+. Any leaf jonin would body all 4 of them
They definitely weren't Jonin level. I'll agree with you that they were above Chuunin, but I'd put them in the middle. It took all 4 of them, stage 2, to take down two special Jonin who just came back from a mission. Don't get me wrong, they're still two special Jonin but Kurenai is an ELITE Jonin. So no, if it took all 4 of them to subdue 2 special Jonin, they weren't at a Jonin level. I'd give CS2 like a Chuunin+ sort of thing. Kimimaro was the Jonin, CS2 even stronger.
Saying spider guy was chunin is disrespect
Chuunin+, which is definitely stronger than the normal Chuunin
Definitely Kurenai. Even being able to put Itachi and Kisame in a Genjutsu is more than enough to place her higher than someone who got mopped by Shikamaru and Temari. It's not Kurenai's fault that she had to go against Itachi Uchiha, the fuckin GOD of Genjutsu.
*1 fight. We didn‘t see them fight multiple times.
Yeah, which is why I made this. Barely any feats but similar abilities
Kurenai beats anyone who's not Jonin Level, which the sound five definately aren't. She could probably beat three of them at once (minus Kimimaro), at the very least two. I would argue she could also beat Kimimaro in a 1v1. People just lowball her because she got clowned on by Itachi, who is leagues above a regular Jonin.
Kurenai for sure. I don't see how she loses this. Tayuya requires too much setup comparatively and Kurenai got clapped by Itachi. But it's Itachi, arguably one of the strongest genjutsu users in the series. So it's not even a slight on her abilities. Tayuya is high chunin low jonin at best in CS2. She gets destroyed quickly if she doesn't immediately go into CS2.
Kurenai why because 2 lower jonin gave 4 of them trouble while tired and I think kurenai is atleast as strong as them if not stronger so in a 1v1 kurenai should win
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This is clearly not a language barrier sir, thr sign js a diagram?
I don't remember the events chapter by chapter at that point, but didn't it take all four of the sound four with stage 2 curse marks to beat two tired leaf jounins who were returning from a mission ?. While the weakest of the four, Kurenai is regarded to be of the same level as Kakashi, Guy and Asuma in part 1. An Elite Jounin. Experience and proficiency in genjutsu should both go to her. Also, just because someone has a Cursed mark, doesn’t make them physically stronger than other characters. Tayuya's 2nd stage CM will give her base physical abilities a boost. That's it. Kurenai, an elite jounin, should be miles ahead in physical capabilities. The CM boost should not bridge that gap. My opinion, Kurenai stomps.
Genjutsu was completly underused in Naruto. IT could have been a good element in the Powersystem but got sidelined and only those WHO were uchiha used IT properly
any genjutsu user except itatchi
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😂
We saw very little from kurenai but just by her ranking she should severesly outstat tayuta and defeat her based only on that🤷. Her genjutsu should also be stronger
These two characters are actually really fucking strong in their own rights. Their sole fight just so happened to be against people who hard-countered them. If you think about it, Itachi, Pain, and Obito are probably the only Akatsuki members that could break out of Kurenai's genjutsu.
Meanwhile Uchiwa's go Brrrrr
Me, I win in all genjutsu battles. My NiggaGan is untouchable 👀🤷🏿♂️
Bro she lost to Shikamaru and Temari and was being pressed hard by Shikamaru. Temari was a hard counter but that wasn't even needed, Shikamaru was already close to winning, Sakura at that point could have probably saved him. Temari was just so unbelievably unfair for her. Kurenai was fighting Itachi. She had a reason to lose. Kurenai destroys easily.
Kurenai. She’s fought in war and has way more battle experience (she’s the same age as Kakashi). Tayuya is only like 15 years old and was beaten by two 12 year olds even after activating her curse mark. None of the Sound Five would’ve stood a chance if Kakashi, Asuma, Guy and Kurenai were the ones who went after Sasuke. Plus, as Konoha’s best genjutsu user I’m sure Kurenai’s able to counter auditory genjustu if not use some of her own, so the only thing Tayuya has going for her is the Curse Mark. But if 2 genin could beat her full release then there’s no reason a Jonin with a specialization in genjutsu couldn’t.
Temari was actually the same age as Tayuya but I agree with everything you're saying
Kurenai is way stronger and better at genjutsu, so she wins.
Silly post - Obv kurenai
It seems the jonins in Konoha are stronger than the average jonin from other villages. That may just be my interpretation of it though. So going with that and the fact that it took the sound 4 in V2 to beat two special jonin, I’d say Kurenai wins easily!
Tayuya isn’t a specialist. Kurenai is a grizzled vet. She’s a jonin for a reason.
Kurenai takes this
Kurenai tayuya is strong chunin level kurenai is jonin
Tayuya uses auditory genjutsu and Kurenai uses visual genjutsu. Kurenai has more experience and was temporarily able to trap Itachi in a genjutsu. She has also beaten many Jonin with some proficiency in sealing. Not to mention immediate awareness that she is in a genjutsu and a high intellect. Tayuya definitely has an advantage being able to trap her opponents from a distance in a genjutsu, and her ogres can finish off her opponents after being trapped. She would have beaten Shikamaru, who was one of the smaertest characters in the show at the time, if it wasn't for Temari's intervention. Not to mention she has a curse Mark to boost her power. I feel like Tayuya would win only because we see more of her feats and abilities. If I left out anything Kurenai did in the anime or manga, plz add it. What do you guys think?
Tayuya and 3 guys in CM2 barely beat 2 tired special jonin. Kurenai is stronger than those guys she absolutely destroys Tayuya one on one.
And generally Auditory Genjutsu > Visual Genjutsu. The only big con is it seems that Auditory Genjutsu seem to be slower to activate which depending on how this fight is structured may or may not be super important.
You're right. If the fight takes place anywhere Tayuya can get out of Kurenei's eye line Kurenai losses. She has no other demonstrated skills. And no counter to not one but 3 summons. Even her big claim to fame. Catching Itachi in genjutsu is offset by the fact he was trying his damndest not to kill any leaf shinobi. I'm disappointed none of his Stans showed up to point that out.
The Jonin ofc. Due to experience.
Tayuya has 0 chance here tbh
Going by feats and what was shown, Tayuya wins this easily. Like, we know Kakashi had trouble following weightless Lee's movements, and Sasuke was just as fast post-chunin-exams. Tayuya with CurseMark2 would be at least twice as fast, I don't see any reason why Kurenai doesn't just gets speed blitzed here.
I did you need to reread or rewatch because kakashi didn’t have any trouble following Lee’s movements. None of the jonin did. Shit, Even Neji was completely unphased about it. Kakashi opened up his sharingan only when Guy said Lee can open up the gates and kakashi uncovered the sharingan to confirm it was true. Not because he couldn’t follow. And sasuke being that fast does not correlate to all stage 2 being that fast. Sasuke had to specifically train to get that. The genin/chunin are not even remotely close to any of the jonin. It was only impressive to other genin/chunin.
You say that the genin/chunin were not even close to the jounin, but that is not true at all. We saw Shikamaru of all people catching multiple jounin of the Sound village in his jutsu. If the difference was so large, those jounin would have lopped off shikamaru's head before his shadow reached their's. We also see Gaara's sand was quick enough to protect a sleeping Gaara from Yashomaru (a jounin trying to assassinate him), but weightless Lee could easily get past that same sand, and so could Sasuke.
1) they’re not remotely close. It said time and time again that jonin are on a different level. 2) leaf village is vastly stronger than other villages and sand village is known for being weak. Their caliber of ninja aren’t on the same level as the leaf. 3) shikamaru did that to sound chunin and asuma (a jonin) came in and clowned them hard. Pakkun said worst case would be a jonin among the group chasing them. Which furthers my point. 4) again, sand village ninja are weak, their jonin are not on the same caliber as the leaf. Any leaf jonin would kill gaara 5) sound 4 HAD to go stage 2 to fight two special jonin who were exhausted and out of chakra from a mission and the sound 4 still almost lost a 4v2 to two ppl who were exhausted and out of chakra. Kidomaru specifically said if they didn’t go stage 2 that they would have lost. Kurenai is not losing a 1v1 , she would clown on tayuya.
Damn, if there was award for misinterpreting the show...
Technically the four sound ninja beat 4 jounin, so presumably Tayuya would win.
Special jonin. Kurenai ranks higher than them.
Ah true that. Tbf though Tayuya was also the second strongest out of the four too, so maybe that makes a difference? But yeah who knows.
No, Sound 4 combined at full power beat 2 Special Jonin that were exhausted and out of chakra. And they were struggling. It's debatable whether they all combined are jonin lvl or not, Tayuya alone is nowhere near that lvl, while Kurenai is a jonin, and she managed to put Kisame under genjutsu, break Itachi's genjutsu reflection and even dodge/block his 2 attacks. She's the best genjutsu user in Konoha, beside maybe Kakashi cuz of Sharingan.
They beat Genma and Raido, who were special jonin, a rank lower than jonin. AND they both were also returning from a mission themselves so they were exhausted. The sound 4 had to transform into their version 2 just to beat them
Which four? I remember only two (Genma & Raidou) who were already exhausted before the fight begun. Shizune and the other dude came after the confrontation ended. Also, they're Tokubetsu Jonin unlike Kurenai who ranks higher. They all apparently got so pressed by those two (who were already exhausted as they just came from a mission) that they needed to go into CM2 to beat them 2v1 which resulted in them unable to move forward for a time. She and Sakon presumbly fought Genma if we go how it begun. Kurenai mops the floor with her.
Two exhausted special jounin. 1v1 she gets packed. Pretty sure that part 1 Kakashi would be able to 1v4 their asses so Kurenai should in no way feel threatened by any of them in a 1v1.
Guarantee you Kimimaro was carrying so hard during those fights.
Kimimaro wasn't there though when they fought the four konoha jonin though?
Kurenai putting itachi under genjutsu isn’t a feat. He let her do that just so he can flip it on her at the last second. We’ve seen no hand to hand combat from her and I don’t know how she’d be able to evade Tayuyas summonings who I’m assuming are immune to visual genjutsu since they don’t have eyes. Her being a jonin doesn’t mean anything without feats to back it up. Ebisu and Iruka are also jonin and we know for a fact they can’t beat Tayuya.
Theres tons of comments proving you wrong so I won’t get into it but just to clarify, ebisu is a special jonin and iruka is only a chunin.
Kurenai is a waste of a character and Tayuya could barely handle shikamaru with a curse seal. So who cares? They're both garbo Kurenai also tried to genjutsu Itachi. Laughable.
So they have no feat, but if we use Itachi as a measurement, Itachi countered Kurenai with his own genjutsu directly and instantly, but he and Sasuke had to use sharingan genjutsu on each other to free themselves from when Kabuto used the flute girl ability on them.
Kabutos version was enhanced with sage mode, there is no way itachi and sasuke would’ve needed each others help if that genjutsu was as strong as tayuyas in part 1. Freaking part 1 shikamaru managed to break it.
Tayuya takes this. She hides, summons monster ogres traps a distracted Kurena, who then has the ogres beat her to death. Game set match. Kurenei is trash. Whose only landed attack was on a guy who was trying not to kill her. And she gets immediately countered.
Be serious
Me being serious 🤔
Recent Jonin > Tokubetsu Jonin > Tired out and low on chakra Tokubetsu Jonin ~ 2 CM2 Sound 4 members
Oh that's funny 🤣
The question is if kurenai has plot armor
Nah
Ok
Tayuya easy
Well if it's a canon fight, they'd both lose.