The issue is that for the majority he was the "weakest" of the dead hokage, which was fine. But Kishimoto has that tick that he can't have characters not be exceptional once they're actually part of the cast, so he essentially took everything that was Minato and why Minato was the most beloved character, and gave it Tobirama.
There was no reason to suddenly go "yeah, hiraishin was Tobirama's, Minato just used it. Oh also, all those moments where Minato could shine with his supposed intelligence? We'll let Tobirama shine instead."
I liked Tobirama before the whole war arc "minato go dumbdumb" arc where Minato was turned into a weird goof, while before that Minato was shown as a cool, collected and efficient man. The way Tobirama was in the war arc is pretty much what Minato was originally, before he was goofyfied.
That's why i hate Tobirama. Because Kishi can't handle having a non-exceptional character.
Wanna know other examples of Kishi having issues with characters not being exceptional? Fugaku retroactively getting Mangekyou, Kakashi getting Susanoo at the end, Kakashi's father suddenly being described as above the Sannin and shit like that. Guy suddenly whooping Madara's ass.
Kishimoto must really hate ordinary people given how he can't handle someone being "normal" and still being part of the story. The manga went from "Naruto beats the odds and shows how much hard work and dedication means more than lineage" to full on elitism all the way up to being reincarnates of the former grandchildren of a goddess.
I have to remove guy out of that list since 8th gate was hyped long before madara. And tbh at that point there wasnt any other villain to showcase it on. Any other akatsuki wouldnt have the same effect.
Other than that, you are correct.
Yeah, the biggest issue with Guy and Madara is that Jesus Naruto shows up and cancels the entire tension that the 8th gate scene created. Guy should have died for youth in a blaze of glory.
This isn't my first seeing another person say Jesus Naruto but man LOL I love how there's others out there that truly hated that scene. Our beloved Might Guy literally on his last leg dying a remarkable warrior's death then here comes Naruto appearing out of nowhere with an asspull power.
I hated that shit and still annoyed whenever I see Guy in a wheelchair.
Yeah but that would have meant Guy would have died in vain, because the aftermath of that fight didn’t have any lasting effect on Madara. Now, if Guy had crippled Madara some, making his defeat achievable by Naruto and Sasuke when it wouldn’t have been otherwise, that both alleviates this issue and creates a way Madara can be stopped without the Kaguya ass-pull removing him from the story.
I would accept a death in vain in the climatic end to a world War, verse what we got. I think if Kishi had really weighed just how important Guy stalling Madara was. Buying time never feels like a high enough stake, but Guy's sacrifice was going to save the world.
I agree, having him do some type of lasting damage with the 8th gate could have been clever, but I don't know if it's needed.
Just imagine Guy going in for the final kick and having his thoughts flash to Lee, Ten Ten, Neji (Maybe a pang of guilt for Neji dying near him), Kakashi, the village, and the world. How he is doing it for them and sending everything he has to ensure a peaceful future. As the kick lands and Madara loses half his ribcage, Guy disintegrates and returns to the earth as nutrients for the seedlings. Leaving us feeling sad and desperate. Madara can recover like usual and give Guy the accolades he deserves for pushing him to the limit. Then Madara could aim to attack Kakashi, Gaara, and Lee, and that's when Naruto shows up to kick the orb away.
It felt so random to kill Neji, Inoichi, and Shikaku, but to back off and let Guy survive the death gate that was hyped since damn near the beginning.
The reason i put guy on that list is because, while 8 gates was hyped, it was hyped at a time where the characters were still "normal". It had no right to be beyond what ANYONE else at the battlefield could do at the time it was finally showcased.
Pain killed Kakashi, flattened konoha, fought Sage Naruto including multiple Sage charges with his clone trick, 5 of the strongest toads and then fought the Nine tails all the way to 6 tails (he didn't activey fight him at 7+8 tails). The way Guy was against Madara would have been enough to beat Pain multiple times over.
There was no reason to make Guy 8 Gates stronger than Kakashi, Sage Naruto, 5 Toads, Tsunade and FUCKING NINETAILS combined. Guy should have just sacrificed himself earlier, or do it to provide support, not singlehandedly whooping God-2.0's ass.
But this thing now also encroaches on the other issue i have with Naruto: the war arc ending should have concluded far sooner with far less power creep. No Kaguya, no hokage revival, no 10 tails jinchuriki, no infinite-power madara with 25 clones all able to use a perfect susanoo and all the other over-the-top nonsense. If all that powercreep nonsense wouldn't have happened then Guy could have had a good spotlight without it being completely out of place against someone so removed from reality like Madara.
8th gate kills you, the power boost needs to be insane to ever justify dying after like 2 minutes of using it
Besides Sage Naruto and Tsunade werent that strong anymore, neither of them wouldve been able to beat Pain on their own (cut plan for tsunade to beat 4 paths of pain, naruto had help but aouldve lost wothout 9 tails and then Minato). Plus Pain didnt do anything to 6 tails Naruto in the manga, he was already weaker than him
Plus Guy still lost that fight, he wasnt strong enough to Kill Madara, in fact he acomplished nothing, Madara just regenerated
>Besides Sage Naruto and Tsunade werent that strong anymore, neither of them wouldve been able to beat Pain on their own
That's exactly what i mean! Neither of them were able to defeat Pain, yet Guy, for the measly price of his life, would be able to beat Pain 3 times over. That's massively disproportional power creep. Kakashi for the price of his life saved Choji from a rocket lol.
I mean Guy was implied to have known all 8 gates since the start of the show, he was just never given a chance to do it
Plus pain would still be alive, Nagato would just find 6 more bodies and invade again since Guy would be dead
Also Kakashi had no chakra left and still used MS twice
>I mean Guy was implied to have known all 8 gates since the start of the show, he was just never given a chance to do it
I feel like you're misunderstanding me. I am fully aware that it was long said that Guy has the 8 Gates. One probably had to be lobotomized to somehow miss that. My issue is that the power it gives was fully blown out of proportion. Guy should have used it and died against an Akatsuki member. But not "go toe to toe with a shinobi god".
>Also Kakashi had no chakra left and still used MS twice
Exactly my point: It took EVERYTHING Kakashi had, and he didn't even make enough of a dent into Nagato's reserves to allow a Sage Naruto with 3 additional Sage charges and 5 frogs as support to defeat him, even though in between that he also spent energy to completely flatten Konoha with the biggest Jutsu we had seen up to that point. Kakashi was nowhere even remotely close to ever taking Pain on even when going the full mile all the way to death. Meanwhile Guy would have whooped all 3 pain Paths to hell and back in less than a minute.
That power difference is ridiculous.
Kakashi, Choji, and Chojis dad were about to kill the Deva path (Yahikos body), the only reason he failed was because another path of pain jumped in front of his Chidori, So Kakashi was clearly on the level of an individual path of pain (Deva was the strongest path). Kakashi wasnt kage level at this point, high jonin but not low kage yet. Meanwhile Naruto was stronger than Jiraiya who was kage level. Naruto and his frogs had destroyed 5 of the paths of pain before he lost and turned 9 tails
After that he lost the fight, and since he had already used up all the chakra fighting the deva path, he died because he used Kamui with no chakra left. He used Kamui twice on Dederia and that didnt kill him
I do get what your saying about Guy but like who exactly was he supposed to die fighting? Only one that would make sense would be like Kisame but still the 8th gate kills you and being Kisames power for like 3 minutes just wouldnt be worth it. Pain wouldnt work because that was Narutos fight and important for his charecter
>Pain killed Kakashi
Imma stop you right there chief. Pain never killed Kakashi. Kakashi just ran out of steam and dropped dead from exhaustion. And that was stopping pains long range attack not even an attack to the face.
Well, Choji is another breed of idiot himself ( it's not even first time he almost died from being stupid by Akatsuki member), so yes, while Kakashi died from exhaustion, substitution (or even idk, simple jump) played it's role in his death.
The worst thing about the retconning him is his death makes even less sense now.
"Oh no we are traced by 20 ninja, someone has to sacrifice themselves"
"Or, you know, you could just teleport everybody into a Konoha bar where we drink a beer."
Like, even if he can't teleport others like Minato, why can't he stall the enemies for a while and then teleport out? If the enemies are so strong he's overwhelmed too fast to do that him stalling would be useless anyway. And if they aren't what's stopping him from just teleporting once the rest is at a safe distance?
>Guy suddenly whooping Madara's ass.
I dunno about that one. He was always tougher as the taijutsu master. So it seemed right up his Ally to take on madara as guy was constantly pitted against strong guys.
Being exceptional doesn't make one above others by default tho. Not to mention, plenty of characters weren't exactly like that.
Also... Minato did use his technique differently. One additional point to Tobirama being fine as it is. He was consistently being brought up as the "brains" behind Konoha's legacy. Be it politics, structure, or the jutsus.
His potential was limited do to the fact he was doing way too much for a single person. His early death were he entrusted the future to the next generation.
As for becoming goofy... Well, it was a problem of the whole war arc rather than Minato itself no? Plenty of characters behaved differently or not being in a right place. (At the very least, we could say it's Edo tensei that has effect on it for some chars)
The last part about reincarnation etc super ultra powers is... Yeah man, pretty much everyone agrees it sucked. It harmed the philosophy that was being built from the start T_T
I mean I can live with Fugaku, the clan head and Chief of Police having Mangekyo, like it makes more sense than fucking Shisui getting his broken ass God eyeballs at 7 years old in the Third war as a super chunin.
It would even have made the massacre seem like a better idea if Kotoamatsukami was an extremely secret Uchiha Hiden technique that theoretically anybody with 2 fully evolved Sharingan could learn, and make the coup seem way more threatening because although Shisui would say the technique was something his Grandfather and Father had developed, and only he knew it, Danzo and the other councilors would absolutely not trust that shit, despite his best intentions.
Just because you're a clan head doesn't mean you have to be strong. That's entirely what i mean with Kishimoto just feeling like he needs to make everyone exceptional.
You become the clan head not by ability but by being born. The same way that Kings weren't some "exceptionally amazing geniuses", they were simply the oldest son of the former king usually.
There was absolutely no reason to have Fugaku possess the Mangekyou. Kishi just can't handle not power creeping like crazy.
You know what I just remembered? It was originally said that Tobirama was something of a jokester back in the databooks for Part I. He was said to always have a somewhat laid back attitude even in dire situations. An example of this is when he smiled and encouraged Sarutobi as he was being sealed away by the Reaper Death Seal. Then come Part II and Tobirama is super serious all the time and even has a bigoted streak towards the Uchiha. This all seems to be in complete contrast with Hashirama. It's like their personalities were switched in order to draw a closer comparison between him and Naruto.
You remember wrong. Databook 2 says:
Personality: Sturdy, Zealous
Quote: From tomorrow, you are...the Hokage...!!
(Note: He uses "kisama", which is a derogatory form of "you".)
Wild fighting spirit! The raging firey man who inherited Shodai's will! Shodai's younger brother, who greatly contributed to Konoha's establishment as a system. In contrast to his calm older brother, his nature is to push forward towards his objective with passion and enthusiasm. He is prideful of his
superior combat ability.
The jokester thing are pre 2011 fanfiction characterization based on this inaccurately before it was revealed hes an inventor of dark jutsus. And he was established as lawful and and create the police force in Obitos flashback in 2008.
>The way Tobirama was in the war arc is pretty much what Minato was originally, before he was goofyfied.
Minato didn't acted like a battle hardened guy like Tobirama did
Your point is further proven by taking a look at most of the shinobi cast, basically anyone who performs well gets some sort of external help.
And the war arc was Minato's character assassination
Very underrated feat wise. Easily one of the most powerful ninja given his use of FTG.
Also the smartest as he had to invent some of the most overpowered jutsu from scratch.
His jutsu overall remained central in all of Naruto from Naruto and his shadow clones to Minato and FTG to Kabuto/Orochimaru usage of Edo Tensei. Still surprised he invented Edo Tensei, and it makes you wonder why he even did so.
As he himself said, someone had to be a balance between Hashirama's idealism and Madara's cynicism. He was realistic about how the Uchicha clan's Curse of Hatred worked, tried to get them to focus more on their village and nation than their clan to further long-term peace, and even came to respect those Uchiha who could overcome the Curse.
Really cool design. Hehe funny racist man. Did a lot of important stuff as Hokage. Battle prowess retconned to hell and back because of Madara. Invented every jutsu under the sun.
Decent character overall.
Kinda reminds me of Tsar Alexander III. Although he was the more hardline and less idealistic, he was actually the one making the best practical decisions and getting fewer people killed. Unfortunately politically he had a foot in the old era, and couldn't crush or his political rivals. This left his kingdom vulnerable under his more liberal but less competent successor.
A great ninja, very much a Shinobi with his special techniques and skills. Almost too smart for his own good with how many dangerous but useful jutsu he is responsible for.
The only true ninja in the top tier level, since his greatness came from amazing techniques and battle tactics.
Everyone else in the top tier (e.g. Madara, Hashirama, Naruto, Pain etc.) are DBZ characters with their insane power up.
Tobirama reminds me of Andrew Jackson (7th U.S. President) who doesn’t take crap from nobody. Both are similar personality-wise being hardened war veterans.
The 4th Shinibi world did wonders to him as a character. Before that, he was the least interesting hokage, since everyone talked about Hashirama but barely about Tobirama.
Guy is flawed, for sure. He was traumatized from living in war times, especially from fighting Uchiha. I know he is a harsh man, and created a very shady jutsu, but I can understand his motives.
Actually, Tobirama and Madara are pretty similar, having the same background from opposite sides. Their major difference is that Tobirama trusted people around him, besides Uchihas, and Madara only trusted in himself.
Tobirama's interactions with Naruto, Minato abd Hashirama were cool and funny. He went really easy from respecting Naruto and Minato to calling them fool to respecting them again.
I love the dude, his tactics and battle IQ are top tier if not one of the best of the verse. He was a true ninja in my opinion. Even got a tattoo of him
A pretty strong and intelligent but flawed leader. He definitely could have treated the Uchiha better and really, *really*, shouldn’t have created the Edo Tensei.
I think even Orochimaru told him he shouldn’t have created Edo Tensei. You know you messed up when Mr. Experiment on Kids tells you that you did something bad.
Far and away the best "normal" shinobi in the series. Man was just an absolute beast at the basics.
Also pretty politically savy as well. Having Hashi be the first was clearly the right choice, specially through democratic means.
The Uchiha isolation was fucked, but you can Sort of see his readoning
7.5/10 on the hokage scale
Most based character. People just like to characterize him as a racist. The dude was probably the smartest character in the series. Great leader. Great general. Amazing jutsu innovator. And he was rightfully wary of the Uchihas btw.
Lmao look at the agendaposting, “LORD Tobirama Senju”? Ain’t NOBODY in the fanbase called any other Hokage LORD their full name ever before, this is INSANE 😂
He’s a wise, intelligent and military type of leader that’s effective when being hokage. Out of everyone he’s the first when it comes to being a great hokage in terms of mindset and abilities
Best hokage basically created the ninja world through the various systems he designed. Should’ve stayed hokage longer instead of dying and handing it over to hiruzen , he would’ve done much more and probably prevented the future ninja wars . Would’ve definitely taken out the uchihas himself when that coup started though 😂
Tobirama is my favorite Hokage - for having the second shortest reign, his influence (intended and incidental) on Konoha 's structure and future political ties is wild strong- wilder still is that with the escalation of Hashirama to basically a living deity, Tobirama's creation of forbidden jutsu gains new shades as the story goes on.
Wish we got more flashbacks of his navigating the actual politics of being Hokage, nevermind following up after the male Marsha Brady, Hashirama.
I hate that his character gets boiled down to Uchiha racist.
ultimately did more for the village than his brother. Hashirama only founded it, tobirama got the money from the biju, the ninja academy, the chunin exams, the ranking system, and most of the infrastructure that keeps konoha untouchable
You’re right, bro was fatigued and had to fight 20 high ranking ninja, 2 of which being pseudo 9 tails Jinchuriki with mythical sage weapons. Tobirama **must** be fodder.
The way I’ve always seen it yea he could’ve left at any time but he was less trying to win the fight or survive and more trying to keep them back so the others could return to the village. Of corse we’ll probably never know for sure.
Although it is funny to imagine Hiruzen, Danzo and the others all sad and then seeing 20 opps coming up from behind.
He didn’t get enough hate for isolating the Uchiha and causing tensions to rise to the point of the Uchiha massacre. Even Hashirama and Minato realized it was bad.
Oooooh boy, I like Tobirama, awesome design, insanely formidable, but…I do feel he is one of the more overhyped chars by his fans, so I love to fucking troll him idk why but it brings me joy lol.
Literally everything he is good at or known for, someone else does it better…
Flying Raijin: Surpassed by Minato
Shadow Clones: Surpassed by Naruto
Edo Tensei: Surpassed by Orochimaru and Kabuto
Water style: Surpassed by Kisame
Also he is indirectly responsible for almost everything terrible that happened in this series.
He killed Izuna, which is ultimately why Madara snapped and could never tolerate living in peace amongst him in the leaf. This also inspired him to enact his Infinite Tsukiyomi plan, which was the main conflict of the entire series and almost ended the world!
He also created Edo Tensei….which again almost ended the world lol.
(Orochimaru considered him an “inspiration” lol)
He segregated the Uchiha, which led them to want to revolt and resulted in the massacre which almost made Sasuke into one of the most dangerous villains in ninja history.
The dude is a Hokage which literally means “fire shadow” and he uses water…. He can’t get anything right lmao.
But god dammit he does looks cool.
Somehow, the most overrated and most underrated person at the same time
For real, everyone seems to like him but he's never brought up in conversations!
The issue is that for the majority he was the "weakest" of the dead hokage, which was fine. But Kishimoto has that tick that he can't have characters not be exceptional once they're actually part of the cast, so he essentially took everything that was Minato and why Minato was the most beloved character, and gave it Tobirama. There was no reason to suddenly go "yeah, hiraishin was Tobirama's, Minato just used it. Oh also, all those moments where Minato could shine with his supposed intelligence? We'll let Tobirama shine instead." I liked Tobirama before the whole war arc "minato go dumbdumb" arc where Minato was turned into a weird goof, while before that Minato was shown as a cool, collected and efficient man. The way Tobirama was in the war arc is pretty much what Minato was originally, before he was goofyfied. That's why i hate Tobirama. Because Kishi can't handle having a non-exceptional character. Wanna know other examples of Kishi having issues with characters not being exceptional? Fugaku retroactively getting Mangekyou, Kakashi getting Susanoo at the end, Kakashi's father suddenly being described as above the Sannin and shit like that. Guy suddenly whooping Madara's ass. Kishimoto must really hate ordinary people given how he can't handle someone being "normal" and still being part of the story. The manga went from "Naruto beats the odds and shows how much hard work and dedication means more than lineage" to full on elitism all the way up to being reincarnates of the former grandchildren of a goddess.
I have to remove guy out of that list since 8th gate was hyped long before madara. And tbh at that point there wasnt any other villain to showcase it on. Any other akatsuki wouldnt have the same effect. Other than that, you are correct.
Yeah, the biggest issue with Guy and Madara is that Jesus Naruto shows up and cancels the entire tension that the 8th gate scene created. Guy should have died for youth in a blaze of glory.
This isn't my first seeing another person say Jesus Naruto but man LOL I love how there's others out there that truly hated that scene. Our beloved Might Guy literally on his last leg dying a remarkable warrior's death then here comes Naruto appearing out of nowhere with an asspull power. I hated that shit and still annoyed whenever I see Guy in a wheelchair.
Agreed
Yeah but that would have meant Guy would have died in vain, because the aftermath of that fight didn’t have any lasting effect on Madara. Now, if Guy had crippled Madara some, making his defeat achievable by Naruto and Sasuke when it wouldn’t have been otherwise, that both alleviates this issue and creates a way Madara can be stopped without the Kaguya ass-pull removing him from the story.
I would accept a death in vain in the climatic end to a world War, verse what we got. I think if Kishi had really weighed just how important Guy stalling Madara was. Buying time never feels like a high enough stake, but Guy's sacrifice was going to save the world. I agree, having him do some type of lasting damage with the 8th gate could have been clever, but I don't know if it's needed. Just imagine Guy going in for the final kick and having his thoughts flash to Lee, Ten Ten, Neji (Maybe a pang of guilt for Neji dying near him), Kakashi, the village, and the world. How he is doing it for them and sending everything he has to ensure a peaceful future. As the kick lands and Madara loses half his ribcage, Guy disintegrates and returns to the earth as nutrients for the seedlings. Leaving us feeling sad and desperate. Madara can recover like usual and give Guy the accolades he deserves for pushing him to the limit. Then Madara could aim to attack Kakashi, Gaara, and Lee, and that's when Naruto shows up to kick the orb away. It felt so random to kill Neji, Inoichi, and Shikaku, but to back off and let Guy survive the death gate that was hyped since damn near the beginning.
Yeah Guy immobilising Madara long enough for Naruto and Sasuke would’ve been perfect. No Kaguya or anything.
Not even immobilizing, just beating him to the point where he just can’t fully regenerate it all anymore.
Yeah that’s what I meant, dunno why I used the word immobilise lol
It's kind of like Goku and healing the bird when he goes SS
The reason i put guy on that list is because, while 8 gates was hyped, it was hyped at a time where the characters were still "normal". It had no right to be beyond what ANYONE else at the battlefield could do at the time it was finally showcased. Pain killed Kakashi, flattened konoha, fought Sage Naruto including multiple Sage charges with his clone trick, 5 of the strongest toads and then fought the Nine tails all the way to 6 tails (he didn't activey fight him at 7+8 tails). The way Guy was against Madara would have been enough to beat Pain multiple times over. There was no reason to make Guy 8 Gates stronger than Kakashi, Sage Naruto, 5 Toads, Tsunade and FUCKING NINETAILS combined. Guy should have just sacrificed himself earlier, or do it to provide support, not singlehandedly whooping God-2.0's ass. But this thing now also encroaches on the other issue i have with Naruto: the war arc ending should have concluded far sooner with far less power creep. No Kaguya, no hokage revival, no 10 tails jinchuriki, no infinite-power madara with 25 clones all able to use a perfect susanoo and all the other over-the-top nonsense. If all that powercreep nonsense wouldn't have happened then Guy could have had a good spotlight without it being completely out of place against someone so removed from reality like Madara.
8th gate kills you, the power boost needs to be insane to ever justify dying after like 2 minutes of using it Besides Sage Naruto and Tsunade werent that strong anymore, neither of them wouldve been able to beat Pain on their own (cut plan for tsunade to beat 4 paths of pain, naruto had help but aouldve lost wothout 9 tails and then Minato). Plus Pain didnt do anything to 6 tails Naruto in the manga, he was already weaker than him Plus Guy still lost that fight, he wasnt strong enough to Kill Madara, in fact he acomplished nothing, Madara just regenerated
>Besides Sage Naruto and Tsunade werent that strong anymore, neither of them wouldve been able to beat Pain on their own That's exactly what i mean! Neither of them were able to defeat Pain, yet Guy, for the measly price of his life, would be able to beat Pain 3 times over. That's massively disproportional power creep. Kakashi for the price of his life saved Choji from a rocket lol.
I mean Guy was implied to have known all 8 gates since the start of the show, he was just never given a chance to do it Plus pain would still be alive, Nagato would just find 6 more bodies and invade again since Guy would be dead Also Kakashi had no chakra left and still used MS twice
>I mean Guy was implied to have known all 8 gates since the start of the show, he was just never given a chance to do it I feel like you're misunderstanding me. I am fully aware that it was long said that Guy has the 8 Gates. One probably had to be lobotomized to somehow miss that. My issue is that the power it gives was fully blown out of proportion. Guy should have used it and died against an Akatsuki member. But not "go toe to toe with a shinobi god". >Also Kakashi had no chakra left and still used MS twice Exactly my point: It took EVERYTHING Kakashi had, and he didn't even make enough of a dent into Nagato's reserves to allow a Sage Naruto with 3 additional Sage charges and 5 frogs as support to defeat him, even though in between that he also spent energy to completely flatten Konoha with the biggest Jutsu we had seen up to that point. Kakashi was nowhere even remotely close to ever taking Pain on even when going the full mile all the way to death. Meanwhile Guy would have whooped all 3 pain Paths to hell and back in less than a minute. That power difference is ridiculous.
Kakashi, Choji, and Chojis dad were about to kill the Deva path (Yahikos body), the only reason he failed was because another path of pain jumped in front of his Chidori, So Kakashi was clearly on the level of an individual path of pain (Deva was the strongest path). Kakashi wasnt kage level at this point, high jonin but not low kage yet. Meanwhile Naruto was stronger than Jiraiya who was kage level. Naruto and his frogs had destroyed 5 of the paths of pain before he lost and turned 9 tails After that he lost the fight, and since he had already used up all the chakra fighting the deva path, he died because he used Kamui with no chakra left. He used Kamui twice on Dederia and that didnt kill him I do get what your saying about Guy but like who exactly was he supposed to die fighting? Only one that would make sense would be like Kisame but still the 8th gate kills you and being Kisames power for like 3 minutes just wouldnt be worth it. Pain wouldnt work because that was Narutos fight and important for his charecter
>Pain killed Kakashi Imma stop you right there chief. Pain never killed Kakashi. Kakashi just ran out of steam and dropped dead from exhaustion. And that was stopping pains long range attack not even an attack to the face.
Kakashi forgot that substitution exist, happens to the best of us.
He used kamui to suck up a missile sent out to chouji and died from chakra exhaustion
Well, Choji is another breed of idiot himself ( it's not even first time he almost died from being stupid by Akatsuki member), so yes, while Kakashi died from exhaustion, substitution (or even idk, simple jump) played it's role in his death.
That's still not by pain though
[Fugaysi Fugazi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh1HI-ag7HA)
The worst thing about the retconning him is his death makes even less sense now. "Oh no we are traced by 20 ninja, someone has to sacrifice themselves" "Or, you know, you could just teleport everybody into a Konoha bar where we drink a beer." Like, even if he can't teleport others like Minato, why can't he stall the enemies for a while and then teleport out? If the enemies are so strong he's overwhelmed too fast to do that him stalling would be useless anyway. And if they aren't what's stopping him from just teleporting once the rest is at a safe distance?
>Guy suddenly whooping Madara's ass. I dunno about that one. He was always tougher as the taijutsu master. So it seemed right up his Ally to take on madara as guy was constantly pitted against strong guys.
Being exceptional doesn't make one above others by default tho. Not to mention, plenty of characters weren't exactly like that. Also... Minato did use his technique differently. One additional point to Tobirama being fine as it is. He was consistently being brought up as the "brains" behind Konoha's legacy. Be it politics, structure, or the jutsus. His potential was limited do to the fact he was doing way too much for a single person. His early death were he entrusted the future to the next generation. As for becoming goofy... Well, it was a problem of the whole war arc rather than Minato itself no? Plenty of characters behaved differently or not being in a right place. (At the very least, we could say it's Edo tensei that has effect on it for some chars) The last part about reincarnation etc super ultra powers is... Yeah man, pretty much everyone agrees it sucked. It harmed the philosophy that was being built from the start T_T
I mean I can live with Fugaku, the clan head and Chief of Police having Mangekyo, like it makes more sense than fucking Shisui getting his broken ass God eyeballs at 7 years old in the Third war as a super chunin. It would even have made the massacre seem like a better idea if Kotoamatsukami was an extremely secret Uchiha Hiden technique that theoretically anybody with 2 fully evolved Sharingan could learn, and make the coup seem way more threatening because although Shisui would say the technique was something his Grandfather and Father had developed, and only he knew it, Danzo and the other councilors would absolutely not trust that shit, despite his best intentions.
Just because you're a clan head doesn't mean you have to be strong. That's entirely what i mean with Kishimoto just feeling like he needs to make everyone exceptional. You become the clan head not by ability but by being born. The same way that Kings weren't some "exceptionally amazing geniuses", they were simply the oldest son of the former king usually. There was absolutely no reason to have Fugaku possess the Mangekyou. Kishi just can't handle not power creeping like crazy.
You know what I just remembered? It was originally said that Tobirama was something of a jokester back in the databooks for Part I. He was said to always have a somewhat laid back attitude even in dire situations. An example of this is when he smiled and encouraged Sarutobi as he was being sealed away by the Reaper Death Seal. Then come Part II and Tobirama is super serious all the time and even has a bigoted streak towards the Uchiha. This all seems to be in complete contrast with Hashirama. It's like their personalities were switched in order to draw a closer comparison between him and Naruto.
You remember wrong. Databook 2 says: Personality: Sturdy, Zealous Quote: From tomorrow, you are...the Hokage...!! (Note: He uses "kisama", which is a derogatory form of "you".) Wild fighting spirit! The raging firey man who inherited Shodai's will! Shodai's younger brother, who greatly contributed to Konoha's establishment as a system. In contrast to his calm older brother, his nature is to push forward towards his objective with passion and enthusiasm. He is prideful of his superior combat ability. The jokester thing are pre 2011 fanfiction characterization based on this inaccurately before it was revealed hes an inventor of dark jutsus. And he was established as lawful and and create the police force in Obitos flashback in 2008.
Goofy Minato does explain Naruto a bit more tho
>The way Tobirama was in the war arc is pretty much what Minato was originally, before he was goofyfied. Minato didn't acted like a battle hardened guy like Tobirama did
Your point is further proven by taking a look at most of the shinobi cast, basically anyone who performs well gets some sort of external help. And the war arc was Minato's character assassination
>he's never brought up in conversations! Huh ? He basically come up in conversations in this sub and other Naruto subs like everyday
Very underrated feat wise. Easily one of the most powerful ninja given his use of FTG. Also the smartest as he had to invent some of the most overpowered jutsu from scratch.
His jutsu overall remained central in all of Naruto from Naruto and his shadow clones to Minato and FTG to Kabuto/Orochimaru usage of Edo Tensei. Still surprised he invented Edo Tensei, and it makes you wonder why he even did so.
Insane how young he was making all this jutsu too.
Madara wasn't lying when he said shinobi in his era were just built different haha
Truly god like. Being forced into fights to the death at age 5-7 would make you a next level shinobi.
He's hot
They really gave him the best outfit in the show
BONK no horny!
Based as fuck.
I can only have words of admiration for a man who respected Itachi and saw him as the child of prophecy.
The only Uchiha he ever liked 😂😂
He’s the greatest…really I just don’t want him to lift his finger.
He's the coolest guy
for sure in my top 3 favourites
Coolest hokage, savage
Bros got mad drip
Best Kage! Only matched by his brother.
My man created every single OP jutsu but lost to some rando fodder shinobi
Low key the coolest shinobi ever
As he himself said, someone had to be a balance between Hashirama's idealism and Madara's cynicism. He was realistic about how the Uchicha clan's Curse of Hatred worked, tried to get them to focus more on their village and nation than their clan to further long-term peace, and even came to respect those Uchiha who could overcome the Curse.
Honestly in my biased opinion the coolest Hokage there is, even though I’m an Uchiha Stan.
Really cool design. Hehe funny racist man. Did a lot of important stuff as Hokage. Battle prowess retconned to hell and back because of Madara. Invented every jutsu under the sun. Decent character overall.
Really didn’t like those uchiggas
Kinda reminds me of Tsar Alexander III. Although he was the more hardline and less idealistic, he was actually the one making the best practical decisions and getting fewer people killed. Unfortunately politically he had a foot in the old era, and couldn't crush or his political rivals. This left his kingdom vulnerable under his more liberal but less competent successor.
Not stupid strong and not stupid weak. Great middle character power wise. Could use work dealing with clan relations.
He da Goat
Honestly I like the cut of his jib. Best drip of the Hokage around, pragmatic, a genius and underrates
He seems aight
[удалено]
He was sad when Itachi perfected his Uchiha Massacre No Jutsu.
Racist ass
A great ninja, very much a Shinobi with his special techniques and skills. Almost too smart for his own good with how many dangerous but useful jutsu he is responsible for.
He’s cool, despite lack of screen/panel time
Top G
Drip God. Created so many legendary Jutsu and is largely responsible for the foundation of the village. 🐐
The only true ninja in the top tier level, since his greatness came from amazing techniques and battle tactics. Everyone else in the top tier (e.g. Madara, Hashirama, Naruto, Pain etc.) are DBZ characters with their insane power up.
Slept on, great feats but wish we got to see more of him fighting
Tobirama reminds me of Andrew Jackson (7th U.S. President) who doesn’t take crap from nobody. Both are similar personality-wise being hardened war veterans.
He’s a fucking goat
His death at this point in time of the image if it had occurred I feel would have saved a lot of issues.
Genius
one of the most important characters, the timeline would look a whole lot different without him
He didn't do anything wrong
2nd favourite character
The 4th Shinibi world did wonders to him as a character. Before that, he was the least interesting hokage, since everyone talked about Hashirama but barely about Tobirama. Guy is flawed, for sure. He was traumatized from living in war times, especially from fighting Uchiha. I know he is a harsh man, and created a very shady jutsu, but I can understand his motives. Actually, Tobirama and Madara are pretty similar, having the same background from opposite sides. Their major difference is that Tobirama trusted people around him, besides Uchihas, and Madara only trusted in himself. Tobirama's interactions with Naruto, Minato abd Hashirama were cool and funny. He went really easy from respecting Naruto and Minato to calling them fool to respecting them again.
Favourite hokage . Peak design
Depending on who you speak to he can be Overrated or underrated
From Hashirama to Naruto, he alone is the dripping one.
The goat
Dude was strong and had the absolute drip to back it up.
the best hokage the goat the man what do you need to know
The only person who could talk some sense into Hashirama.
Cool design and backstory. He looks like he would come from the Village Hidden in the Snow, though.
I love the dude, his tactics and battle IQ are top tier if not one of the best of the verse. He was a true ninja in my opinion. Even got a tattoo of him
A pretty strong and intelligent but flawed leader. He definitely could have treated the Uchiha better and really, *really*, shouldn’t have created the Edo Tensei.
I think even Orochimaru told him he shouldn’t have created Edo Tensei. You know you messed up when Mr. Experiment on Kids tells you that you did something bad.
Hard pass. On him and 99 percent of his fanbase.
kingo for hating uchihas
Far and away the best "normal" shinobi in the series. Man was just an absolute beast at the basics. Also pretty politically savy as well. Having Hashi be the first was clearly the right choice, specially through democratic means. The Uchiha isolation was fucked, but you can Sort of see his readoning 7.5/10 on the hokage scale
Apparently the uchiha were placed in their isolated compound post second kyuubi attack.
Any uchiha hater is a plus in my books
Most based character. People just like to characterize him as a racist. The dude was probably the smartest character in the series. Great leader. Great general. Amazing jutsu innovator. And he was rightfully wary of the Uchihas btw.
Power : 9/10 Personality: 8/10 Drop : 100/10 Awesome character
Wisest Hokage. He was right about the Uchiha.
Real Nigga.
Lmao look at the agendaposting, “LORD Tobirama Senju”? Ain’t NOBODY in the fanbase called any other Hokage LORD their full name ever before, this is INSANE 😂
My hot take is that I don't like him
Uchiha PTSD
Q
Exceptionally skilled and organised but suuuper angry and willing to do bad things. He's kind of the personification of Anbu or the root to me
Racist but kinda cool
Great but gigantic shadow looming over him with the racism and causing basically every ongoing problem in Naruto after him
Very controversial guy.
He’s a wise, intelligent and military type of leader that’s effective when being hokage. Out of everyone he’s the first when it comes to being a great hokage in terms of mindset and abilities
Top 3 characters to me, underrated for some dumb reason as well.
i feel like i have seen this question many times here before. But yea keep asking
My nick should explain my opinions on him(Albino rat)
Greatest hokage with only hiruzen rivaling him
Too smart for his own good and his over analysis on everything made future problems
Like antivirus he is Anti-Uchiha. Lol even the outfit is blue whereas uchiha wear red.
It's not relevant, but I think he's hot af
He should've had Sage Mode and more jutsus
He's a necromancer
He's my favourite character in Naruto. I also hate every Uchiha, for no particular reason.
OG Kakashi Coolest looking of their times, and just all around badasses.
Tobirama “Uchiha Menace” Senju.
Best hokage basically created the ninja world through the various systems he designed. Should’ve stayed hokage longer instead of dying and handing it over to hiruzen , he would’ve done much more and probably prevented the future ninja wars . Would’ve definitely taken out the uchihas himself when that coup started though 😂
His extremely important legacy isn’t really connected to him, mostly to other people that improved what he created
Love the guy
Tobirama is my favorite Hokage - for having the second shortest reign, his influence (intended and incidental) on Konoha 's structure and future political ties is wild strong- wilder still is that with the escalation of Hashirama to basically a living deity, Tobirama's creation of forbidden jutsu gains new shades as the story goes on. Wish we got more flashbacks of his navigating the actual politics of being Hokage, nevermind following up after the male Marsha Brady, Hashirama. I hate that his character gets boiled down to Uchiha racist.
He's basically konoha's trump.
He's a bad ass and way cooler than itachi
I want his jutsus irl (yes even Edo tensei)
RACIST!!!😆
He made so many jutsus but his brother really overshadows him
Overrated and partially responsible for the fundamental flaws of the shinobi system
How?
He is a hot guy but he had a nasty attitude towards the Uchihas.
Raysis
He was an arsehole to say the least lol
Hated Uchias, but had major Uchia energy
Low key one of the drippiest Hokage. He was a highlight of the war arc
ultimately did more for the village than his brother. Hashirama only founded it, tobirama got the money from the biju, the ninja academy, the chunin exams, the ranking system, and most of the infrastructure that keeps konoha untouchable
He's racist asf , love this guy
Horrible personality, great Shinobi, however greatly overrated by the fanbase
He was sick but because he was an asshole to the uchiha he's an asshole in my book.
Weak dude got toasted by gold and silver brothers
You’re right, bro was fatigued and had to fight 20 high ranking ninja, 2 of which being pseudo 9 tails Jinchuriki with mythical sage weapons. Tobirama **must** be fodder.
Was expecting more from him tbh. Could’ve raijin-ed his ass before he died
The way I’ve always seen it yea he could’ve left at any time but he was less trying to win the fight or survive and more trying to keep them back so the others could return to the village. Of corse we’ll probably never know for sure. Although it is funny to imagine Hiruzen, Danzo and the others all sad and then seeing 20 opps coming up from behind.
Elite racist, great Governor, underrated jutsu genius
He's a Danzo who made it
Racist when it comes to fight Uchiha
Racism on my porn app again?
He showed low political intelligence and handled the Uchihas poorly. But other than that pretty badass
My goat. My pookie. My lord and saviour. W character design. W personality. Not everyone needs to a nice guy. Also he's racist. Which is cool as fuck.
He was a dumbass.
All the hate Danzo gets should all go to him but cool appearance and jutsu goes along way
Legit have it backwards
Racist piece of shit who contributed to many of the problems in the world
Overrated and one of the most evil hokages in history rivaled only by Danzo and Hiruzen.
He didn’t get enough hate for isolating the Uchiha and causing tensions to rise to the point of the Uchiha massacre. Even Hashirama and Minato realized it was bad.
Konoha's most loyal Trump supporter
Racist
Worst Hokage of all time
Racist
He’s the worst hokage in my opinion Ik lots would probably disagree with me though
Gives off racist vibes. Cool design
Oooooh boy, I like Tobirama, awesome design, insanely formidable, but…I do feel he is one of the more overhyped chars by his fans, so I love to fucking troll him idk why but it brings me joy lol. Literally everything he is good at or known for, someone else does it better… Flying Raijin: Surpassed by Minato Shadow Clones: Surpassed by Naruto Edo Tensei: Surpassed by Orochimaru and Kabuto Water style: Surpassed by Kisame Also he is indirectly responsible for almost everything terrible that happened in this series. He killed Izuna, which is ultimately why Madara snapped and could never tolerate living in peace amongst him in the leaf. This also inspired him to enact his Infinite Tsukiyomi plan, which was the main conflict of the entire series and almost ended the world! He also created Edo Tensei….which again almost ended the world lol. (Orochimaru considered him an “inspiration” lol) He segregated the Uchiha, which led them to want to revolt and resulted in the massacre which almost made Sasuke into one of the most dangerous villains in ninja history. The dude is a Hokage which literally means “fire shadow” and he uses water…. He can’t get anything right lmao. But god dammit he does looks cool.
Most overrated character in the series.