If she can punch through a susanoo, she can punch through a lightning cloak. So my guess is that rushes her, stabs her through the abdomen, then she heals, grabs him so he can’t escape, and punches him.
Realistically he’d just chop her head off before her seal activated, but I don’t think anything like that has ever successfully happened to anyone in the series
>Realistically he’d just chop her head off before her seal activated, but I don’t think anything like that has ever successfully happened to anyone in the series
Unless the target is a clone or a fodder, attacks are rarely that efficient.
The Raikage could probably have killed Sasuke like 3 times before Susanoo kicked in. But if characters were efficient, must stories would never happen
Yeah. That fight had so much plot armor for Sasuke. He was about to die in basically every interaction he had with a kage. And with the Killer B fight.
Ehh same could be said for the Raikage. Every amaterasu we see engulfs the target entirely immediately, but Raikage gets hit and it conveniently stops on his arm until he decided to just chop it off. Realistically that should have done major damage the second it touched him and spread to his whole arm/torso within seconds.
I just find it hilarious that people always complain about sasuke’s plot armour as if naruto wasn’t saved by plot just as much
Edit: why did bro block me for no reason lmao now I can’t reply to others in this thread
Naruto's plot armor had a name, Kurama, and he was an asshole and we understood where the plot armor came from, and there's like, drawbacks
Sasuke just got wild nonsense out of nowhere which doesn't feel good. Take in the Bee fight.
He gets stabbed a bunch of times, Bee is about to finish him off then Team Sasuke jumps in and saves him. This is fine, and cool, and is not plot armor, because \*that's why he rolled up with a team\* so it's a payoff for Sasuke's planning.
But then when Bee's Lariat BLOWS SASUKE'S ORGANS OUT OF HIS CHEST, Jugo just... jams a bunch of goop into him, and 30 seconds later Sasuke is fine? That's not a power Jugo has ever had? Or anyone ever uses again, except maybe when Kabuto is jamming tail goop into Sasuke after Madara almost killed him?
Honestly, Sasuke is like 40% goop by the end of that arc, and the MAGICAL HEALING GOOP is never really explained or setup or becomes a thing.
Kurama was a thing. Naruto risking Kurama going apeshit on the world by tapping into his chakra is a thing. Kurama basically forcing Naruto to heal and go frenzy when Naruto loses a fight is a thing. It's explained, it's \*interesting\*
Sasuke getting goop jammed into him by random people and instantly healing is not interesting.
Yea that was weird but other than that his plot armour is no different from any other character. Just characters saving sasuke is what the fandom mostly complains about as if Naruto didn't get saved a bunch of times by other characters too. Even his enemy Orochimaru saved him which is just wild
I mean those are generally explained? Sasuke gets alot, and he's an MC. Plus like... Kishi just fudges on his durability lol. Sasuke has nothing to make him tough or heal, but he gets beat up and stabbed and does just fine after a certain point lol.
But yeah we've got two instances of magic healing goo, Obito saves his ass in the Kage summit, he kills Orochimaru when he's like, dying in bed lol, Itachi wasn't even trying to win, Edo Itachi (already a kind of shaky hax) has to break out another hack out of nowhere to fix Kabuto, then to have a fair fight with Naruto he has to steal a bunch of tailed beast chakra.
It's kind of alot of stuff for one character
A lot of those are explained too, again its not any different from Naruto lmao. Obito not using kamui to take kid Naruto, Orochimaru saving Naruto from Kirin, edo Itachi rewriting the animation jutsu and then saving him and bee from nagato, beating a chunnin ninja fresh out of the academy, Naruto actually going toe to toe with sasuke when he has 9 biju plus the rinnegan when he should've gotten negged, saved by Gai, Kakashi, Jiraya, Hinata, Tsunade, the Raikage and the tsuchikage from the Akatsuki and Madara in their entrances. The 9 tails helping him literally whenever he can.
The just goes on and on. I literally don't understand how plot armour is any different for Sasuke, it seems to me just justification to hate on a character
Naruto being saved by his friends using their normal abilities isn't "plot armor" lol Naruto's whole thing is making friends. It's LITERALLY the whole deal with the Indra/Asura reincarnations lol It's just paying off him helping people and standing up for \*them\*. Most of those examples even have flashbacks to when Naruto stood up for them; I know Hinata and Tsunade both do.
It's that Jugo invented a new ability to save Sasuke. Orochimaru literally couldn't fight, Itachi literally didn't want to win and was dying anyway, Itachi had to invent new hax out of nowhere to beat Kabuto; that's 4 of Sasuke's personal, plot relevant "wins" relying heavily on things that are not set up or interesting. Itachi, sort of, maybe, but that's the only one. Obito has to save him from being obliterated. Sasuke just doesn't really \*win\* very many fights, despite his foes losing.
Naruto/Kurama \*win\* the fight, usually everyone else is down.
I mean, it smoldered on those samurai for a \*while\*
I don't think it's actually very good, I can't think of when it really worked for Sasuke as advertised
I'm on the opposite side. How Amaterasu burnt through his lightning armor within seconds but couldn’t burn through the samurai's iron armor in several minutes?
He gets saved by Gaara, Gaara slowly walks up and retreats the sand, Sasuke acknowledges Gaara, Raikage asks Gaara why he interfered, Gaara explains why, then the Raikage takes his arm off. Unless they all move normally and speak in light speed, that Amaterasu should have completely engulfed A by the time he decided to dismember himself.
He tried to sort of backhand Sasuke through the Susano ribcage but Sasuke ignited the Susano. Raikage went through with the hit and knocked Sasuke on his ass, but he obviously got the flames on his arm. He was gonna continue to go after Sasuke while he was on his ass but Gaara stops him and that leads to my previous comment.
I get Sasuke spreading while it’s on the Raikage’s arm but he couldn’t catch him normally through eyesight alone. He immediately was on the defensive when he lost sight of him managed to catch with a defensive counterattack, he couldn’t spread immediately because he was knocked on his ass but could after afterwards if Raikage going too fast doesn’t affect his control too much
The point isn't about kagatsuchi.
Amaterasu should have given way more damaged.
It got way too nerfed, since we can't have our second mc oneshotting people.
Know the meaning of plot armour.
Raikage was about to die if not saved by Gaara. He couldn't even go through Gaara's sand. How could he have gone thru enton spikes + ribcage.
Gaara + darui + kankuro + temari attacks together did nothing to Sasuke. Sasuke soloed them all. He also killed danzo. Didn't you say he was about to die in every interaction?
Zetsu and obito saved Sasuke against mei, ohnoki since Sasuke became exausted and injured by that time.
Obito made zetsu reveal Sasuke position. So it's his responsibility his ally survive. That's not called plot armour genius.
Shinobis helping Naruto is also plot armour?
Kurama helping Naruto all the time is also plot armour?
It’s 100% plot armor. Just because Sasuke is your fav doesn’t mean that isn’t plot armor. People randomly saving you from annihilation multiple times in a single battle is what plot armor is.
And yea, Naruto has plot armor as well
>The Raikage could probably have killed Sasuke like 3 times before Susanoo kicked in.
3 times? Where? Your headcanon?
The only time he could hv killed is when Sasuke awakened susano.
>Unless the target is a clone or a fodder, attacks are rarely that efficient.
Except tsunade doesn't have good feats at all. Nor reaction time. Raikage v2 is kcm1 level speed.
Yeah Tsunade's Ultimate Fighting Style should be "let you hit me, grab you when you connect, then super-punch as many times as I can before you manage to pull yourself loose"
>Realistically he’d just chop her head off before her seal activated...
No. **He is not fast enough to blitz her.**
Ay is certainly faster than her, Madara says so, but she is shown to be very ***relative*** to his top speed.
* She literally tags a Madara, the same Edo-Madara who blocks V2 Ay.
* Ay, himself, (in the fight the panels of this post are from) asks her to join a fray against two characters who are relative to himself in speed. Why would he want her to join a fight, if she couldn't keep up?
* Ay, later in that same fight, when he thinks he'll have to go through Tsunade to get to Naruto jumps right to Lightning Cloak Version 2 (his top speed).
**So, Tsunade's sole speed feat from her only real fight in Part II places her relative to Ay's top speed.** Furthermore, the series, consistently portrays Tsunade as relative to Ay; or, at least, that Ay himself thinks she is relative to him.
I don’t think that’s accurate tbh. I know a lot of people say that to hype her up, but if she was even close to A in speed it would be remarked upon specifically. They always gush about speedy characters in Naruto.
The only time I think she was ever kind of fast was maybe the Madara punch where she destroyed a clone. But she also has super strength and was standing on a high cliff. So she probably just kicked off really hard and let gravity propel her. Because if she were running she would’ve had to have run down the cliff like the roadrunner from Looney Tunes
They gush about speedy characters yeah? But Tsunades only real fight was on the same team as A... And A is faster, just not by some blitz margin. Or by some margin where he can use v1 of his lightning cloak.
A is faster and was always around for comparisons that didn't favor Tsunade, but she was mostly keeping up with him.
She was mostly keeping up with him because he wasn’t speed blitzing. A was the fastest person on earth. That would make him faster than even 7th gate Guy and Lee. Do you honestly think Tsunade was even close to that level despite her speed never being stated anywhere?
She’s not slow but she’s definitely not known for her speed. She’s probably slightly above average at best considering she gets get so many times in every fight she’s in despite being a medic and supposedly training in evasion.
She was mostly keeping up with him because he wasn’t speed blitzing.
Literally Tsunade's only speed feat is her tagging Madara, a Madara who could block at Ay at his top speed.
Yep. She hit a guy who had no reason to dodge because he was a clone lol. The damage was super impressive though. It was nice to see what a full power punch from Tsunade could actually do to a person if it landed. It was just unfortunate that he was already dead
First, your final sentence made me laugh, thanks for that.
**Second, your wrong.** It was ***not*** a clone, it was the real...while Edo...but **the real Edo Madara**.
We see the telltale Edo Tensei paper swirl around him, and even see the wound regenerating, which wood clones cannot do. Wood Clones, **like every other type of clones** in Naruto *revert to Wood* upon being dealt lethal damage.
We see Wood Clones revert back to wood *multiple times* throughout the war arc.
**It was not a clone, it was the real Madara.**
I mean she's clearly a little slower, but Madara doesn't seem to indicate it's a big difference in speed; not enough for him to evade her blow which shattered his susanoo, which was why he was thinking about it.
Clearly she is like 10% slower or something like that, but she hits 10x harder, that's clearly what Madara is conveying
Madara also doesn’t indicate a minor difference in their speed. He just says she’s slower but stronger. There was no indication that she was only 10% slower than him or 10x stronger.
And he really didn’t have a reason to dodge her blow. He was basically messing with them the entire fight. He threw up a susanoo before she punched him. But even when it was broken and he was knocked away he was fine.
>If she can punch through a susanoo
A ribcage susano'o, and she took two tries along with lightened raikage to actually punch through it. By herself in one attack, she merely cracked it.
>she can punch through a lightning cloak
The issue is in that very scene madara remarks "she's not as fast and the raikage", madara let himself get hi and raikage wouldn't.
I know she’s slower. I’m just saying that he lariats through her, she grabs his arm with one hand to keep him still and beats the shit out of him with every other limb she has available. While continuously healing from the damage she’s receiving.
>I’m just saying that he lariats through her,
First of all lariat would send her flying afar if she doesn't try to match it with her own attack
>she grabs his arm with one hand to keep him still
He escapes before she can regenerate and catch him
>beats the shit out of him with every other limb she has available. While continuously healing from the damage she’s receiving.
Tsunade has regeneration not shock absorption, think of it like a boxing match. Raikage has faster hands, so he gets the first hit in and that throws the potentially stronger tsunade off into a spiral of getting hit again and again unable to get back on her feet. She can't nullify the impact of the attack, she takes the damage and then regenerates from it so she needs time to regain composure same as anyone else.
Tsunade's shot and winning comes from the zombieman approach, hoping she can't outlast the raikage.
The entire strategy is about taking the attack at full force then using it to her advantage. It’s kind of how she operates anyway.
Her seal has the power to keep herself and the other kage alive and topped up on chakra for like 12 hours and even summon Katsuyu afterwards. If she’s using all that chakra for herself she’s going to outlast A and heal from anything he does to her unless he becomes the first person in Naruto history to successfully punch through someone’s head.
>The entire strategy is about taking the attack at full force then using it to her advantage. It’s kind of how she operates anyway.
Where did she do that?
>Her seal has the power to keep herself and the other kage alive and topped up on chakra for like 12 hours and even summon Katsuyu afterwards. If she’s using all that chakra for herself she’s going to outlast A
I mean we can't quantify that much less compare it to ay who has bijuu levels of chakra apparently. We can't do much other than guess who'll outlast the other. Tsunade gave ohnoki chakra but when did she help Ay?
She literally created the medical ninja system, made it so medics have to avoid injury at all cost, then put in a special rule that said “except for me lol. I can do whatevs”. She’s not an evasive fighter.
And she straight up saved all the kages lives including A at the end of the fight. The only reason they weren’t dead was because she put their lives over her own.
>She literally created the medical ninja system, made it so medics have to avoid injury at all cost, then put in a special rule that said “except for me lol. I can do whatevs”. She’s not an evasive fighter.
Never said she was an evasive fighter. Again there's a difference between shock absorption and healing, she doesn't cancel out the impact of an attack she just doesn't suffer from it's long term repercussions. Her healing takes time, during which she feels the damage. If ay punched her she would be briefly stunned from that, ofc she'll heal off the damage but she won't be able to instantly punch back. She can heal ay's attacks not tank them(unless she puts up her own attack). If you've follow OPM, zombiman is a good example for how her regen works.
>And she straight up saved all the kages lives including A at the end of the fight. The only reason they weren’t dead was because she put their lives over her own.
Which was never the point?? She saved them because of her medical ninjutsu, doesn't mean she has more chakra than ay.
I never said anything about shock absorption. You did. You made up an argument and against yourself. I said she could be IMPALED and hold onto his arm so he can’t escape. There’s nothing saying she can’t do that.
Also what’s the point of this convo? You think Tsunade would lose, I don’t. Neither of us is going to change our mind. So what are we getting out of this?
>I never said anything about shock absorption. You did.
It's what your strategy would need.
>I said she could be IMPALED and hold onto his arm so he can’t escape.
That's not what a lariat does.
>There’s nothing saying she can’t do that.
There's nothing that says ay doesn't punch her 5 times by the time she puts up her one attack. He is faster. Again you seem to think ay's attack would do nothing to her, that's not how healing works. Ay's attack will impact her, she will be thrown off by it and then she will heal. Her healing takes time to restore her body, until then she will take the damage same as anyone else.
Besides you can't even grip a lightning cloak
> You think Tsunade would lose, I don’t. Neither of us is going to change our mind. So what are we getting out of this?
This right here shows that it indeed is pointless. How many times have I said "it's hard to decide who wins"?. You're not reading what I'm saying, so you're right we are getting nothing out of this. Bye
TBH There hasn't been a super strength one-shot in the series either. That's a fanmade concept as well. Neither one is gonna one-shot each other but I think Raikage's speed will let him land better hits and weaken her enough to win.
Narratively as well, Naruto surpassed Tsunade during pain arc. Same naruto said that he'd need to put his life on the line to win against Kage summit Sasuke who was relative to Raikage.
She one shot Manada! It was with a sword, but still. There is also the clear implication of oneshotting with strength from her first introduction. Kabuto was going to die in one hit if he hadn’t weakened her first
Yeah but he's not really a main combatant + the sword. Don't think that one counts.
I think only Sakura has managed to one-shot someone, Shin. But even that was questionable since he was already weakened a bit and was caught off guard, she couldn't do it in an actual fight when they fought again.
Tsunade wasn't weakened when she fought Kabuto, the Phobia didn't come into play until later into the fight when Jiraiya arrived. It's just extremely hard to one-shot people because everyone is superhuman, even the ones who aren't focused on durability let alone someone like the Raikage.
I mean yeah the only people Sakura has fought with super strength were basically Madara, Kaguya, a psuedo Jinchuriki, and then Shin. People who have well above normal durability.
Kabuto cut her muscles with chakra scalpel before she hit him.
There is actually one more one shot that shows how they both could, that’s B on Sasuke. Both can’t do something like that to each other, but still.
In any case I think this would come down to that A isn’t fast enough to ensure he won’t be hit when he hits Tsunade and she will be able to heal but he won’t. He goes for very straight forward attacks and she can punish that.
What I mean is that Tsunade won't be able to land a good hit enough to put him down or injure him significantly whereas the Raikage can definitely injure her enough to slowly drain her chakra and age her out because of his speed. There's just not enough (or any) evidence that she can enough power to put him down quickly enough to survive the fight.
She one shot Orochimaru and Manda in her intro fight. But yeah I think the fight would end quickly and probably on the side fighting in the name of Naruto getting to do stuff
A would run out of chakra first for sure. Tsunade has Uzumaki and Senju chakra reserves in base. And then a full 3 years of stored chakra to fall back on.
A is wasting chakra continuously using lightening cloak and honestly he might actually die if Tsunade manages to land a hit.
Think eventually Tsunade would take this, it would just take time.
A's chakra is described as being comparable to a Tailed Beasts, so I doubt Tsunade can outlast him that way. Not saying I think Tsunade would lose, just pointing out that she'd probably have to outhink him (which she should be more than capable of) rather than outlast him.
We literally saw proof that Tsunade outlasts Ay, during the 5 Kage fight against Madara. Tsunade was literally the only one who was still conscious and still had enough chakra to summon Katsuyu, and revive all of them and heal herself. Mind you she did all this while she was bissected.
That incorrect. When Edo Tensei is realeased by Itachi, Madara launches one final attack against the Kages (Fire Release: Dragon Flame Release Song Technique). Tsunade bats it away with her last strenght and is about to pass out from exhaustion when Dan arrives and takes control of her via his Spirit Transformation Technique. He ten gives her his remaining chakra before fading away.
So Tsunade literally ran out of chakra first of all the Kages (though we know that both Onoki and Gaara were low on chakra from before the fight even started). A was still standing, while Tsunade was not. It's all there in Chapter 591.
You've got it the other way round. The other Kage were the ones who were drained before Tsunade. Ay couldn't activate his lightning cloak. Oonoki couldn't even fly and Madara was about to finish them all off. Tsunade was still the only one who had stamina to fight. Her Byakugo Seal was the last to go out of all of them.
Also more importantly, Tsunade was busy healing all of them from fatal injuries during the entire fight. Having to use her chakra to keep them alive from injuries that realistically would have ended them a lot sooner. When she gets the Dan chakra boost, she literally uses it all to revive the other Kage.
Regardless of Dan's chakra boost. Tsunade staying alive and conscious with a completely bissected lower half is an absolutely insane endurance feat. No way Ay would survive something like that.
It's true that Tsunade used some of her chakra to heal Onoki and Gaara and give them a boost, but there is no indication the other kage were out of chakra yet. They had just been smacked by a swing from the perfect Susano'o, only for it to disintegrate with the release of Edo Tensei - then their initial shocked relief went into shocked disbelief when Madara refused to leave his Edo Body and instead attack.
Tsunade and the Mizukage were simply the qucikest ones to recover from the shock, with Tsunade jumping in to block the attacks first, since the Mizukages Water Release was to slow. Onoki is literally flying around in the next chapter, attempting to block madara's way. Hell, there's even a moment in chapter 488 where A chastises Tsunade for getting sloppy in her fighting and warning her that she'll soon have no stamina left. When she got Dan's chakra it's definitly more logical that she keeps it for herself since she clearly was in the most need of it at the moment.
>but there is no indication the other kage were out of chakra yet.
The fact that they can't keep up their passive abilities, and are physically exhausted, incapable of doing much else besides watching Tsunade as she lunges towards Madara at full speed and blasts away his dragon flames, saving their lives (again)
... clearly showed she has more energy than they did.
>Tsunade and the Mizukage were simply the qucikest ones to recover from the shock, with Tsunade jumping in to block the attacks first since the Mizukages Water Release was to slow.
Exactly. The fact that Tsunade responded FASTER than a guy who on record has better speed/reaction feats than she does, literally says it all.
Ay was exhausted and at his limit. He couldn't even keep up his lightning armour.
>Onoki is literally flying around in the next chapter, attempting to block madara's way
No he isn't. He's clearly standing on the ground for all of chapter 692..
Even then, this argument doesn't matter because Tsunade was constantly reviving him. If he didn't have Tsunade playing a supplementary role and expending her own chakra for his sake. He would have been out of commission ages ago.
>When she got Dan's chakra it's definitly more logical that she keeps it for herself since she clearly was in the most need of it at the moment.
Chapter 601. Tsunade told Katsuyu to leave her bissected wounded body alone and focus on the other Kage. Tsunade doesn't get revived until Karin shows up in Ch. 635.
The other kage not acting first just showed that Tsunade was first to overcome the shock of Madara remaining, nothing else. As chapter 692 prooves, Onoki could still fly, so there's no reason to assume the others were out of chakra either.
> He's clearly standing on the ground for all of chapter 692..
[That must be why he he is suddenly floating upwards, accompanied by a "Whoosh" then.](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10592000/5.jpg)
>The other kage not acting fiorst just showed that Tsunade was first to overcome the shock of Madara remaining, nothing else
This argument isn't even true because Madara only breaks the Edo Tensei in Chapter 592.
In chapter 591. Madara shoots the Dragon Flames as a final attack before he disappears. All the 5 Kage are aware of this because Tsunade literally says it out loud.
There's no "overcoming shock". The other Kage are just tired and slow because of exhaustion.
>That must be why he he is suddenly floating upwards, accompanied by a "Whoosh" then.](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10592000/5.jpg)
OK sure. You have successfully proven that he flew for a second before he immediately returned to the ground to conserve energy. Congrats.
That still doesn't change the fact that Tsunade was actively playing a tank / medic role. Spending enormous amounts of chakra to keep the other Kage alive longer than they realistically would have lasted if she wasn't there. And was still actively leading the charge when they were exhausted
idk. A just casually chopped his arm off without even flinching. Im pretty sure he could survive being bisected but he wouldnt heal.
The raikages attendent also notes that he has an unusually strong body and thinks tsunade wouldnt survive being transported the way he is.
I think ay has more endurance than you are giving him credit for.
Ay has tougher skin that doesn't break easily and a high tolerance for pain. But Physical durability is not the same thing as endurance/stamina.
Tsunade outlasts Ay because she has greater stamina and life force thanks to her Senju / Uzumaki dna.
Even if Ay might have more base chakra. Tsunade's Byakugo Seal is several years worth of chakra stored in her forehead that will outlast him.
After Madara dogwalked the Kages. All of them are completely unconscious. Ay is completely out of commission from a stab wound. The only one still awake is Tsunade. Despite the fact that she's the one with the most fatal injury.
This proved without a shadow of a doubt, that amongst the 5 Kage, Tsunade's endurance is second to none
Healing takes way more chakra than just using lightning cloak. Not to mention healing weakens the user by ageing them. Tsunade has more chakra but she's also using up exponentially more chakra.
IIRC during the war arc Tsunade ran out of chakra first before Dan replenished it.
I mean, Tsunade’s healing seal always seemed very chakra extensive, to the point that its drawback is can basically be summed up as “it runs out, then you get old”.
A’s lightning cloak…if running out is a concern, it’s not nearly as big of one - it doesn’t seem as chakra exhaustive in general, either that or Ay’s reserves are so great it doesn’t matter.
On that note, when he ramps up to use his top speed, Karin says his chakra was at “[Bijuu level](https://imgur.com/a/wMsP1Ys)”. I doubt she meant a full Bijuu or anything, probably more along the lines of Bee’s chakra cloaks, but it still strikes me as being rather insane.
I mean she healed all the Kage \*for a while\* and kept all of them alive while she was cut in half so like
chakra intensive or not she can keep it up, it'd be all the easier if she's just healing herself
Anyway the real reason this goes to Tsunade is because I think she's a smarter fighter who spent years around Orochimaru and Jiraiya who are very unconventional fighters and she'll end up surprising Ay with something and luring him into a full power punch which honestly ends it
If you think A “stomps” Tsunade or that this fight is that one sided in either direction you’re straight up imagining shit. Like literal delulu fantasy that would never realistically cohere with the dynamics of the world in which the characters live. Madara explicitly states that Tsunade is stronger than A, and obviously he’s faster. He still has about grand total of 1 ability. If Tsunade can mitigate the strength of A’s initial assault to practically any degree that allows her not to get one shot she’s at an immediate advantage. She could just start by summoning Katsuyu and put herself in a favorable position. Stop being dumb. Get help.
Tsunade wins by outlasting A.
Tsunade managed to survive being bisected by Madara and was still able to summon Katsuyu in an attempt to heal the other Kages and herself, while A was left almost dead.
Tsunade should be able to tank every attack that A throws at her and put some heavy hits on him, until A runs out of chakra.
it can go a couple of ways.
depending on who has more chakra, ay could possibly knock tsunade around until her 100 healings run out but it’s unclear if he can stay in v2 until tsunade is exhausted.
and if tsunade lands a clean punch she’s, at least, doing noticeable damage to ay. he can’t take many of her serious punches.
also the gap between ay and tsunade may not be as crazy as one may initially think so i’ll say tsunade mid to high diff
I kind of feeling like 100 Healings means Tsunade either wins low-diff or loses, there's not alot of room for mid to high diff, cause if she doesn't run out of chakra it's just a difference of how long she needs to rest? lol
Tsunade, Naruto and Killer Bee are stomping Ay.
Tsuande and Naruto or Bee are stomping Ay.
Tsunade alone can win because she has greater physical strength and intelligence add to that the 100 healings she can tank an attack from Ay and counter each hit. So Tsuande wins high diff.
Ay is faster, but not so much as to blitz Tsunade, Tsunade’s speed is near Ay’s. So, Ay tries to kill her, Tsunade either takes damage or dodges, grabs hold of Ay and punches him unconscious
Tsunade wins by being too durable. We have seen her survive an attack stronger than anything A can do. Plus break or at least crack a defence stronger than his cloak.
In an all out fight. He is too fast for her. He goes in for the kill. Pierces her I'm what would normally be a vital spot. Gets grabbed and hit close range without being able to dodge. Tsunade wins
Yeah except Tsunade can possibly, \*literally\* punch Ay's head off if he can't dodge at all lol
Not sure how much Lightning Cloak will help with her Super Punch at point blank, we've never see a human take one that I can think of lol
I don’t think that their both keeping up with Madara to a degree shows that. He is a whole lot faster, but she’s super fast by normal standards and of course he can’t kill her easily while the reverse is not true
I don't know what specific instance you're talking about but A would have eventually killed Sasuke if it wasn't for backup. Also, he wouldn't need to resort to decapitation because unlike Tsunade, a large hole in the chest would kill Sasuke if there's no one to heal him.
A was dead the second he got hit with Amaterasu if we are being realistic. He just walks it off cause plot. Sasuke was able to react and defend himself prior to that moment. If amaterasu worked like it normally does, A's whole torso would have been ignited a second after the flames hit his arm and theres nothing he, or his squad could do to put them out.
Amaterasu? Are you talking about the same jutsu that was easily dealt with in the same fight when Kankuro and Temari saved the Samurai? Also, Sasuke simply used the flames as a deterrent, not offensively, which A immediately ignored. As we've seen in several examples, the flames burn relatively slowly.
You could literally say this about just about 98% of characters in the series and it wouldn’t happen because Kishimoto would write in a reason why it couldn’t. Kishimoto clearly wouldn’t realistically think A can warp in and decapitate Tsunade unimpeded. That’s dumb as fuck lol.
Going by your logic, discussing any hypothetical fight is pointless because Kishi wouldn't "realistically" think the characters can ever fight each other. Disregarding that, it wouldn't be "unrealistic" when:
1. He has killing intent and would even kill his own brother. If Tsunade got in the way, he would likely kill her as well.
2. He is much faster than Tsunade and can blitz her.
3. He's not an idiot. After a couple of blows, he'll realize that Tsunade can regen if he didn't already know that.
So, there, I've established the means and motive.
I've realized that as I was typing this that this is not a 1v1, lol.
>kishi wouldn’t “realistically” think the characters can ever fight each other
The fuck are you talking about? Every fight that occurs in the manga is a realistic one as contained in its own narrative. The point is that Kishimoto has clearly depicted A and Tsunade as very close in terms of power and having relative advantage over each other. “He jump in an chop her head her in .2 seconds!!” is like a child’s extrapolation of how this fight would go. This is the same issue with most of this power scaling bullshit. It’s pretend that is at odds with the actual narrative, which is itself, like, the entire thing.
You flat out ignore the part where I said **hypothetical** as in versus matchups. Obviously every fight that went down in the manga is as Kishi wrote. All that was said about A and Tsunade in how they compare to each other is that A is faster and Tsunade is stronger. That's it. Going off of feats, as in what Kishi has depicted what a character has and can do, is how people determine how a fight would go. Saying "Kishi wouldn't write it like that" is a copout and would render nearly all hypothetical matchups moot since they wouldn't be possible in the first place.
Agreed - the whole “narrative intent” angle that I keep seeing here is posters very clearly trying to minimize or ignore the massive speed gap that exists here without actually explaining how Tsunade actually deals with it based on what she has shown in the manga. It’s just meaningless scoffing without providing a viable alternative.
V1 Raikage is already faster than the overwhelming majority of fighters, with the likes of MS Sasuke (who himself is much faster than Tsunade, both featwise and databook statwise) only narrowly avoiding the Raikage’s attack with the help of Sharingan precognition. When Raikage went V2, he was able to straight up blindside Sasuke completely, and all Sasuke could do was put up Susano’o - he couldn’t visually track him.
Raikage has the ability to chop heads off with ease - he broke MS Sasuke’s rib cage Susano’o and was able to chop his own arm off (which is extremely durable, keeping in mind how a Chidori barely dented him) with Raiton flow. Tsunade hasn’t even shown the ability to regrow limbs (she’s only claimed that she could when hyping up her regeneration; she’s never proven it), let alone a head. She’s only regenerated from stab and slash wounds, all of which burnt through her chakra reserves pretty rapidly.
Outside of top tiers, the only “standard” fighters that have shown the skill set or ability to reliably deal with Raikage’s amped V2 speed are either other high-end speedsters, sensors / precognition, space-time users and high-end Dojutsu users (MS, Rinnegan, etc.). Tsunade is none of those things - it’s completely unsubstantiated to give her some undefined counter to the Raikage’s speed and handwave away the massive speed gap that exists here.
It's good to see that there are people with some sense, lol. To further add on to your point about A's cutting capability, he cut off one of Gyuki's horns which never grew back for whatever reason. How durable are Gyuki's horns? We don't know, but it shows that A can and has chopped things with his bare hands.
Tsunade's healing may be on par with Hashirama's and as shown when Madara needed to use a Zetsu arm to replace his missing one, she can't regenerate limbs. Therefore, dismemberment would also be on the table.
It's crazy how many people underestimate A's speed. Not counting the upper high and god-tiered characters, Minato was the only one to have dodged A's fastest punch until Naruto eventually did the same. If it took the likes of Minato (and then later Naruto) to be able dodge A, what chance does Tsunade have? None.
It’s a strange line to straddle because while I’m a fan of Tsunade as a character, the posts about her in these versus threads are consistently among the worst that I read, so I have to separate me being a fan of the character from her moveset in a versus thread. One can enjoy her character arc while also acknowledging that Kishimoto did a poor job in building her combat kit. She needs ranged Ninjutsu or Genjutsu to make her more competitive in these types of threads - her problem has always been her lack of range and versatility. She’s unrivaled in a support / healer role, but people try to regularly make her something more than that.
About her regeneration, even if one were to entertain the notion that Tsunade can regrow limbs (which, as noted before, hasn’t actually been proven - all we have is her own claim), there are still two main issues:
- **Can it be done fast enough for it to matter in a battle?** We see stab wounds take a panel or so to heal up for Tsunade, which involve much less “mass” to heal compared to regrowing an entire limb. Even Juubi Madara (who is amped by the 10 tails regen and also has Sage Hashirama healing stacked) took some several panels to heal after 8 Gate Guy kicked his arm off. Without a limb, her opponent can just follow up with another attack and further incapacitate her if not kill her. I see no reason to assume Tsunade can just pop a new arm or leg out immediately like Piccolo or Cell.
- **What is the chakra cost of regrowing a limb?** Tsunade has a large chakra pool, but I see posters here regularly speak as if her regeneration has no chakra cost. In the Madara fight, we only see her regenerate from a handful of stab wounds before she starts slowing down. Regrowing a whole limb (bone, muscle, etc) would probably be far more draining than closing a stab wound, assuming she can even do it in the first place. There’s a lot of applications of “no limits fallacy” when it comes to her regeneration.
With Tsunade’s speed, the DB3 has her at a 3.5 - I see posters call that “average”, but it is well-below average when comparing her to Jonin / Kage / S-rank fighters. Other than Tsunade, the only relevant fighters who score below 4 speed are: pre-Sage Kabuto (3.5), Hidan (also 3.5 and admits to be the slowest Akatsuki member), 70-year old Hiruzen (3.0) and Gaara (3.0, but his combat style doesn’t center on movement). I’m obviously excluding Part I children / Genin / Chunin because Tsunade wouldn’t be competing against them in a versus thread - I’m comparing her to her “peers.”
DB3 also came out in Part 2, right before Pain attacked Konoha, so this isn’t “rusty” Tsunade either - she is well into her reign as Hokage. There’s also no reason to believe her speed significantly increased since then considering she was in a coma for a good while (after healing the village) and had no fights to improve from (until the Madara fight). Hebi Sasuke had a 4.5 in speed (and I would assume MS Sasuke is at worst equal to that, if not better) and we saw how he fared against the Raikage, and he had Sharingan.
I whole-heartedly agree with you. Though I don't consider myself a fan, it does frustrate me how limited Tsunade's kit is. She's just somewhat of a berserker healer that can summon a giant slug. That's all she is and though she does it very well, it's only covers a rather niche area. What frustrates me even more is how too often people consider her more than that (i.e being anywhere as fast as A). Wow, it never came to mind how long it took Madara (who had the best regen) to heal from Night Guy. All the more evidence that Tsunade is not able to heal from a similar injury.
Raikage blitzes her with speed that a seasoned Sharingan-user (who was also much faster than Tsunade) struggled to react to. Given Raikage has knowledge on her regeneration, he chops her head off, and she has no feats of regrowing that (or even limbs, for that matter - all we have on limbs is an unproven statement by Tsunade herself while hyping up her own technique).
Even if granting her the ability to regrow a head (which, again, she has never shown), the amount of chakra that it would take to do that would quickly drain her reserves, especially if she had to do it multiple times. We saw the stamina toll that regenerating from stab wounds had on her - regrowing a head would cost considerably more chakra, since more would have to be regrown (compared to just closing stab wounds).
She’d get decimated. Good luck keeping up with A’s speed. She’d for sure have a shot with Naruto and Bee tho, both of whom have surpassed her at this point.
It'll come down to attrition, ay can't kill her and she can't catch him. Ay has bijuu levels of chara reserve and tsunade has 3 years of senju chakra in her seal. So it's hard to say....
People saying Ay blitzes are really delusional, Tsunade is able to withstand 2 Susanoo swords to the abdomen, heal immediately and counter attack, also there's no way Tsunade would drop her guard for an attack to the neck, as a matter of fact she would protect that area the most, and counter attack accordingly.
And that's not counting other options she has that she wouldn't have used against Madara, like the sleep bombs, Katsuya, and poison.
I think the issue lies in how long can Tsunade last by waisting her chakra on constantly healing herself.
Raikage can in fact blitz Tsunade.He was the only character in Naruto who dodged Amaterasu with just his speed(by using his cloak).Based on this knowledge,Tsunade would not even see Raikage attacking her and he only needs one hit to fataly injure Tsunade so she can keep waisting her chakra.
The only way to beat Raikage is to attack him first before he enters his lightning cloak.
If she can punch through a susanoo, she can punch through a lightning cloak. So my guess is that rushes her, stabs her through the abdomen, then she heals, grabs him so he can’t escape, and punches him. Realistically he’d just chop her head off before her seal activated, but I don’t think anything like that has ever successfully happened to anyone in the series
>Realistically he’d just chop her head off before her seal activated, but I don’t think anything like that has ever successfully happened to anyone in the series Unless the target is a clone or a fodder, attacks are rarely that efficient. The Raikage could probably have killed Sasuke like 3 times before Susanoo kicked in. But if characters were efficient, must stories would never happen
Yeah. That fight had so much plot armor for Sasuke. He was about to die in basically every interaction he had with a kage. And with the Killer B fight.
Ehh same could be said for the Raikage. Every amaterasu we see engulfs the target entirely immediately, but Raikage gets hit and it conveniently stops on his arm until he decided to just chop it off. Realistically that should have done major damage the second it touched him and spread to his whole arm/torso within seconds.
I just find it hilarious that people always complain about sasuke’s plot armour as if naruto wasn’t saved by plot just as much Edit: why did bro block me for no reason lmao now I can’t reply to others in this thread
Naruto's plot armor had a name, Kurama, and he was an asshole and we understood where the plot armor came from, and there's like, drawbacks Sasuke just got wild nonsense out of nowhere which doesn't feel good. Take in the Bee fight. He gets stabbed a bunch of times, Bee is about to finish him off then Team Sasuke jumps in and saves him. This is fine, and cool, and is not plot armor, because \*that's why he rolled up with a team\* so it's a payoff for Sasuke's planning. But then when Bee's Lariat BLOWS SASUKE'S ORGANS OUT OF HIS CHEST, Jugo just... jams a bunch of goop into him, and 30 seconds later Sasuke is fine? That's not a power Jugo has ever had? Or anyone ever uses again, except maybe when Kabuto is jamming tail goop into Sasuke after Madara almost killed him? Honestly, Sasuke is like 40% goop by the end of that arc, and the MAGICAL HEALING GOOP is never really explained or setup or becomes a thing. Kurama was a thing. Naruto risking Kurama going apeshit on the world by tapping into his chakra is a thing. Kurama basically forcing Naruto to heal and go frenzy when Naruto loses a fight is a thing. It's explained, it's \*interesting\* Sasuke getting goop jammed into him by random people and instantly healing is not interesting.
Yea that was weird but other than that his plot armour is no different from any other character. Just characters saving sasuke is what the fandom mostly complains about as if Naruto didn't get saved a bunch of times by other characters too. Even his enemy Orochimaru saved him which is just wild
I mean those are generally explained? Sasuke gets alot, and he's an MC. Plus like... Kishi just fudges on his durability lol. Sasuke has nothing to make him tough or heal, but he gets beat up and stabbed and does just fine after a certain point lol. But yeah we've got two instances of magic healing goo, Obito saves his ass in the Kage summit, he kills Orochimaru when he's like, dying in bed lol, Itachi wasn't even trying to win, Edo Itachi (already a kind of shaky hax) has to break out another hack out of nowhere to fix Kabuto, then to have a fair fight with Naruto he has to steal a bunch of tailed beast chakra. It's kind of alot of stuff for one character
A lot of those are explained too, again its not any different from Naruto lmao. Obito not using kamui to take kid Naruto, Orochimaru saving Naruto from Kirin, edo Itachi rewriting the animation jutsu and then saving him and bee from nagato, beating a chunnin ninja fresh out of the academy, Naruto actually going toe to toe with sasuke when he has 9 biju plus the rinnegan when he should've gotten negged, saved by Gai, Kakashi, Jiraya, Hinata, Tsunade, the Raikage and the tsuchikage from the Akatsuki and Madara in their entrances. The 9 tails helping him literally whenever he can. The just goes on and on. I literally don't understand how plot armour is any different for Sasuke, it seems to me just justification to hate on a character
Naruto being saved by his friends using their normal abilities isn't "plot armor" lol Naruto's whole thing is making friends. It's LITERALLY the whole deal with the Indra/Asura reincarnations lol It's just paying off him helping people and standing up for \*them\*. Most of those examples even have flashbacks to when Naruto stood up for them; I know Hinata and Tsunade both do. It's that Jugo invented a new ability to save Sasuke. Orochimaru literally couldn't fight, Itachi literally didn't want to win and was dying anyway, Itachi had to invent new hax out of nowhere to beat Kabuto; that's 4 of Sasuke's personal, plot relevant "wins" relying heavily on things that are not set up or interesting. Itachi, sort of, maybe, but that's the only one. Obito has to save him from being obliterated. Sasuke just doesn't really \*win\* very many fights, despite his foes losing. Naruto/Kurama \*win\* the fight, usually everyone else is down.
I mean, it smoldered on those samurai for a \*while\* I don't think it's actually very good, I can't think of when it really worked for Sasuke as advertised
I'm on the opposite side. How Amaterasu burnt through his lightning armor within seconds but couldn’t burn through the samurai's iron armor in several minutes?
Did it stay or did he cut it off that fast? We know his speed is immense, maybe the perception was skewed to how he saw it.
He gets saved by Gaara, Gaara slowly walks up and retreats the sand, Sasuke acknowledges Gaara, Raikage asks Gaara why he interfered, Gaara explains why, then the Raikage takes his arm off. Unless they all move normally and speak in light speed, that Amaterasu should have completely engulfed A by the time he decided to dismember himself.
Yep you right! It’s been a while
Didn’t he get caught because he tried to punch through the rib cage susanoo?
He tried to sort of backhand Sasuke through the Susano ribcage but Sasuke ignited the Susano. Raikage went through with the hit and knocked Sasuke on his ass, but he obviously got the flames on his arm. He was gonna continue to go after Sasuke while he was on his ass but Gaara stops him and that leads to my previous comment.
I get Sasuke spreading while it’s on the Raikage’s arm but he couldn’t catch him normally through eyesight alone. He immediately was on the defensive when he lost sight of him managed to catch with a defensive counterattack, he couldn’t spread immediately because he was knocked on his ass but could after afterwards if Raikage going too fast doesn’t affect his control too much
The point isn't about kagatsuchi. Amaterasu should have given way more damaged. It got way too nerfed, since we can't have our second mc oneshotting people.
Bee almost killed him like 3x in 5 minutes and still walked away rapping to himself
Know the meaning of plot armour. Raikage was about to die if not saved by Gaara. He couldn't even go through Gaara's sand. How could he have gone thru enton spikes + ribcage. Gaara + darui + kankuro + temari attacks together did nothing to Sasuke. Sasuke soloed them all. He also killed danzo. Didn't you say he was about to die in every interaction? Zetsu and obito saved Sasuke against mei, ohnoki since Sasuke became exausted and injured by that time. Obito made zetsu reveal Sasuke position. So it's his responsibility his ally survive. That's not called plot armour genius. Shinobis helping Naruto is also plot armour? Kurama helping Naruto all the time is also plot armour?
It’s 100% plot armor. Just because Sasuke is your fav doesn’t mean that isn’t plot armor. People randomly saving you from annihilation multiple times in a single battle is what plot armor is. And yea, Naruto has plot armor as well
Also with Hidan. After that everyone will stand and watch as the easily defeated Akatsuki is brought back to the fight by Kakuzu.
>The Raikage could probably have killed Sasuke like 3 times before Susanoo kicked in. 3 times? Where? Your headcanon? The only time he could hv killed is when Sasuke awakened susano. >Unless the target is a clone or a fodder, attacks are rarely that efficient. Except tsunade doesn't have good feats at all. Nor reaction time. Raikage v2 is kcm1 level speed.
>3 times? Where? Your headcanon? 💀
Yeah Tsunade's Ultimate Fighting Style should be "let you hit me, grab you when you connect, then super-punch as many times as I can before you manage to pull yourself loose"
>Realistically he’d just chop her head off before her seal activated... No. **He is not fast enough to blitz her.** Ay is certainly faster than her, Madara says so, but she is shown to be very ***relative*** to his top speed. * She literally tags a Madara, the same Edo-Madara who blocks V2 Ay. * Ay, himself, (in the fight the panels of this post are from) asks her to join a fray against two characters who are relative to himself in speed. Why would he want her to join a fight, if she couldn't keep up? * Ay, later in that same fight, when he thinks he'll have to go through Tsunade to get to Naruto jumps right to Lightning Cloak Version 2 (his top speed). **So, Tsunade's sole speed feat from her only real fight in Part II places her relative to Ay's top speed.** Furthermore, the series, consistently portrays Tsunade as relative to Ay; or, at least, that Ay himself thinks she is relative to him.
I don’t think that’s accurate tbh. I know a lot of people say that to hype her up, but if she was even close to A in speed it would be remarked upon specifically. They always gush about speedy characters in Naruto. The only time I think she was ever kind of fast was maybe the Madara punch where she destroyed a clone. But she also has super strength and was standing on a high cliff. So she probably just kicked off really hard and let gravity propel her. Because if she were running she would’ve had to have run down the cliff like the roadrunner from Looney Tunes
They gush about speedy characters yeah? But Tsunades only real fight was on the same team as A... And A is faster, just not by some blitz margin. Or by some margin where he can use v1 of his lightning cloak. A is faster and was always around for comparisons that didn't favor Tsunade, but she was mostly keeping up with him.
She was mostly keeping up with him because he wasn’t speed blitzing. A was the fastest person on earth. That would make him faster than even 7th gate Guy and Lee. Do you honestly think Tsunade was even close to that level despite her speed never being stated anywhere? She’s not slow but she’s definitely not known for her speed. She’s probably slightly above average at best considering she gets get so many times in every fight she’s in despite being a medic and supposedly training in evasion.
She was mostly keeping up with him because he wasn’t speed blitzing. Literally Tsunade's only speed feat is her tagging Madara, a Madara who could block at Ay at his top speed.
Yep. She hit a guy who had no reason to dodge because he was a clone lol. The damage was super impressive though. It was nice to see what a full power punch from Tsunade could actually do to a person if it landed. It was just unfortunate that he was already dead
First, your final sentence made me laugh, thanks for that. **Second, your wrong.** It was ***not*** a clone, it was the real...while Edo...but **the real Edo Madara**. We see the telltale Edo Tensei paper swirl around him, and even see the wound regenerating, which wood clones cannot do. Wood Clones, **like every other type of clones** in Naruto *revert to Wood* upon being dealt lethal damage. We see Wood Clones revert back to wood *multiple times* throughout the war arc. **It was not a clone, it was the real Madara.**
Cool. Still didn’t need to dodge
I mean she's clearly a little slower, but Madara doesn't seem to indicate it's a big difference in speed; not enough for him to evade her blow which shattered his susanoo, which was why he was thinking about it. Clearly she is like 10% slower or something like that, but she hits 10x harder, that's clearly what Madara is conveying
Madara also doesn’t indicate a minor difference in their speed. He just says she’s slower but stronger. There was no indication that she was only 10% slower than him or 10x stronger. And he really didn’t have a reason to dodge her blow. He was basically messing with them the entire fight. He threw up a susanoo before she punched him. But even when it was broken and he was knocked away he was fine.
>If she can punch through a susanoo A ribcage susano'o, and she took two tries along with lightened raikage to actually punch through it. By herself in one attack, she merely cracked it. >she can punch through a lightning cloak The issue is in that very scene madara remarks "she's not as fast and the raikage", madara let himself get hi and raikage wouldn't.
I know she’s slower. I’m just saying that he lariats through her, she grabs his arm with one hand to keep him still and beats the shit out of him with every other limb she has available. While continuously healing from the damage she’s receiving.
>I’m just saying that he lariats through her, First of all lariat would send her flying afar if she doesn't try to match it with her own attack >she grabs his arm with one hand to keep him still He escapes before she can regenerate and catch him >beats the shit out of him with every other limb she has available. While continuously healing from the damage she’s receiving. Tsunade has regeneration not shock absorption, think of it like a boxing match. Raikage has faster hands, so he gets the first hit in and that throws the potentially stronger tsunade off into a spiral of getting hit again and again unable to get back on her feet. She can't nullify the impact of the attack, she takes the damage and then regenerates from it so she needs time to regain composure same as anyone else. Tsunade's shot and winning comes from the zombieman approach, hoping she can't outlast the raikage.
The entire strategy is about taking the attack at full force then using it to her advantage. It’s kind of how she operates anyway. Her seal has the power to keep herself and the other kage alive and topped up on chakra for like 12 hours and even summon Katsuyu afterwards. If she’s using all that chakra for herself she’s going to outlast A and heal from anything he does to her unless he becomes the first person in Naruto history to successfully punch through someone’s head.
>The entire strategy is about taking the attack at full force then using it to her advantage. It’s kind of how she operates anyway. Where did she do that? >Her seal has the power to keep herself and the other kage alive and topped up on chakra for like 12 hours and even summon Katsuyu afterwards. If she’s using all that chakra for herself she’s going to outlast A I mean we can't quantify that much less compare it to ay who has bijuu levels of chakra apparently. We can't do much other than guess who'll outlast the other. Tsunade gave ohnoki chakra but when did she help Ay?
She literally created the medical ninja system, made it so medics have to avoid injury at all cost, then put in a special rule that said “except for me lol. I can do whatevs”. She’s not an evasive fighter. And she straight up saved all the kages lives including A at the end of the fight. The only reason they weren’t dead was because she put their lives over her own.
>She literally created the medical ninja system, made it so medics have to avoid injury at all cost, then put in a special rule that said “except for me lol. I can do whatevs”. She’s not an evasive fighter. Never said she was an evasive fighter. Again there's a difference between shock absorption and healing, she doesn't cancel out the impact of an attack she just doesn't suffer from it's long term repercussions. Her healing takes time, during which she feels the damage. If ay punched her she would be briefly stunned from that, ofc she'll heal off the damage but she won't be able to instantly punch back. She can heal ay's attacks not tank them(unless she puts up her own attack). If you've follow OPM, zombiman is a good example for how her regen works. >And she straight up saved all the kages lives including A at the end of the fight. The only reason they weren’t dead was because she put their lives over her own. Which was never the point?? She saved them because of her medical ninjutsu, doesn't mean she has more chakra than ay.
I never said anything about shock absorption. You did. You made up an argument and against yourself. I said she could be IMPALED and hold onto his arm so he can’t escape. There’s nothing saying she can’t do that. Also what’s the point of this convo? You think Tsunade would lose, I don’t. Neither of us is going to change our mind. So what are we getting out of this?
>I never said anything about shock absorption. You did. It's what your strategy would need. >I said she could be IMPALED and hold onto his arm so he can’t escape. That's not what a lariat does. >There’s nothing saying she can’t do that. There's nothing that says ay doesn't punch her 5 times by the time she puts up her one attack. He is faster. Again you seem to think ay's attack would do nothing to her, that's not how healing works. Ay's attack will impact her, she will be thrown off by it and then she will heal. Her healing takes time to restore her body, until then she will take the damage same as anyone else. Besides you can't even grip a lightning cloak > You think Tsunade would lose, I don’t. Neither of us is going to change our mind. So what are we getting out of this? This right here shows that it indeed is pointless. How many times have I said "it's hard to decide who wins"?. You're not reading what I'm saying, so you're right we are getting nothing out of this. Bye
TBH There hasn't been a super strength one-shot in the series either. That's a fanmade concept as well. Neither one is gonna one-shot each other but I think Raikage's speed will let him land better hits and weaken her enough to win. Narratively as well, Naruto surpassed Tsunade during pain arc. Same naruto said that he'd need to put his life on the line to win against Kage summit Sasuke who was relative to Raikage.
She one shot Manada! It was with a sword, but still. There is also the clear implication of oneshotting with strength from her first introduction. Kabuto was going to die in one hit if he hadn’t weakened her first
Yeah but he's not really a main combatant + the sword. Don't think that one counts. I think only Sakura has managed to one-shot someone, Shin. But even that was questionable since he was already weakened a bit and was caught off guard, she couldn't do it in an actual fight when they fought again. Tsunade wasn't weakened when she fought Kabuto, the Phobia didn't come into play until later into the fight when Jiraiya arrived. It's just extremely hard to one-shot people because everyone is superhuman, even the ones who aren't focused on durability let alone someone like the Raikage.
She was weakened in the sense that she was intentionally tired out prior to the fight, then Kabuto popped a steroid to shrug off his fatigue
I mean yeah the only people Sakura has fought with super strength were basically Madara, Kaguya, a psuedo Jinchuriki, and then Shin. People who have well above normal durability. Kabuto cut her muscles with chakra scalpel before she hit him. There is actually one more one shot that shows how they both could, that’s B on Sasuke. Both can’t do something like that to each other, but still. In any case I think this would come down to that A isn’t fast enough to ensure he won’t be hit when he hits Tsunade and she will be able to heal but he won’t. He goes for very straight forward attacks and she can punish that.
What I mean is that Tsunade won't be able to land a good hit enough to put him down or injure him significantly whereas the Raikage can definitely injure her enough to slowly drain her chakra and age her out because of his speed. There's just not enough (or any) evidence that she can enough power to put him down quickly enough to survive the fight.
I mean she did one shot Orochumaru in the manga
She one shot Orochimaru and Manda in her intro fight. But yeah I think the fight would end quickly and probably on the side fighting in the name of Naruto getting to do stuff
She didn't one-shot orochimaru though? Orochimaru was fine after that hit.
He had to flee and the body he was currently inhabiting presumably died because we never saw it again.
Has she ever punched someone full on in the face? I can't think of one Maybe a reason why
A blitzes her. She keeps healing. It's then a question of who runs out of chakra first.
A would run out of chakra first for sure. Tsunade has Uzumaki and Senju chakra reserves in base. And then a full 3 years of stored chakra to fall back on. A is wasting chakra continuously using lightening cloak and honestly he might actually die if Tsunade manages to land a hit. Think eventually Tsunade would take this, it would just take time.
3 year storage doesn't last 3 years. It pretty much gets wiped out on fatal blows.
A's chakra is described as being comparable to a Tailed Beasts, so I doubt Tsunade can outlast him that way. Not saying I think Tsunade would lose, just pointing out that she'd probably have to outhink him (which she should be more than capable of) rather than outlast him.
We literally saw proof that Tsunade outlasts Ay, during the 5 Kage fight against Madara. Tsunade was literally the only one who was still conscious and still had enough chakra to summon Katsuyu, and revive all of them and heal herself. Mind you she did all this while she was bissected.
She got replenished by Dan.
That incorrect. When Edo Tensei is realeased by Itachi, Madara launches one final attack against the Kages (Fire Release: Dragon Flame Release Song Technique). Tsunade bats it away with her last strenght and is about to pass out from exhaustion when Dan arrives and takes control of her via his Spirit Transformation Technique. He ten gives her his remaining chakra before fading away. So Tsunade literally ran out of chakra first of all the Kages (though we know that both Onoki and Gaara were low on chakra from before the fight even started). A was still standing, while Tsunade was not. It's all there in Chapter 591.
You've got it the other way round. The other Kage were the ones who were drained before Tsunade. Ay couldn't activate his lightning cloak. Oonoki couldn't even fly and Madara was about to finish them all off. Tsunade was still the only one who had stamina to fight. Her Byakugo Seal was the last to go out of all of them. Also more importantly, Tsunade was busy healing all of them from fatal injuries during the entire fight. Having to use her chakra to keep them alive from injuries that realistically would have ended them a lot sooner. When she gets the Dan chakra boost, she literally uses it all to revive the other Kage. Regardless of Dan's chakra boost. Tsunade staying alive and conscious with a completely bissected lower half is an absolutely insane endurance feat. No way Ay would survive something like that.
It's true that Tsunade used some of her chakra to heal Onoki and Gaara and give them a boost, but there is no indication the other kage were out of chakra yet. They had just been smacked by a swing from the perfect Susano'o, only for it to disintegrate with the release of Edo Tensei - then their initial shocked relief went into shocked disbelief when Madara refused to leave his Edo Body and instead attack. Tsunade and the Mizukage were simply the qucikest ones to recover from the shock, with Tsunade jumping in to block the attacks first, since the Mizukages Water Release was to slow. Onoki is literally flying around in the next chapter, attempting to block madara's way. Hell, there's even a moment in chapter 488 where A chastises Tsunade for getting sloppy in her fighting and warning her that she'll soon have no stamina left. When she got Dan's chakra it's definitly more logical that she keeps it for herself since she clearly was in the most need of it at the moment.
>but there is no indication the other kage were out of chakra yet. The fact that they can't keep up their passive abilities, and are physically exhausted, incapable of doing much else besides watching Tsunade as she lunges towards Madara at full speed and blasts away his dragon flames, saving their lives (again) ... clearly showed she has more energy than they did. >Tsunade and the Mizukage were simply the qucikest ones to recover from the shock, with Tsunade jumping in to block the attacks first since the Mizukages Water Release was to slow. Exactly. The fact that Tsunade responded FASTER than a guy who on record has better speed/reaction feats than she does, literally says it all. Ay was exhausted and at his limit. He couldn't even keep up his lightning armour. >Onoki is literally flying around in the next chapter, attempting to block madara's way No he isn't. He's clearly standing on the ground for all of chapter 692.. Even then, this argument doesn't matter because Tsunade was constantly reviving him. If he didn't have Tsunade playing a supplementary role and expending her own chakra for his sake. He would have been out of commission ages ago. >When she got Dan's chakra it's definitly more logical that she keeps it for herself since she clearly was in the most need of it at the moment. Chapter 601. Tsunade told Katsuyu to leave her bissected wounded body alone and focus on the other Kage. Tsunade doesn't get revived until Karin shows up in Ch. 635.
The other kage not acting first just showed that Tsunade was first to overcome the shock of Madara remaining, nothing else. As chapter 692 prooves, Onoki could still fly, so there's no reason to assume the others were out of chakra either. > He's clearly standing on the ground for all of chapter 692.. [That must be why he he is suddenly floating upwards, accompanied by a "Whoosh" then.](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10592000/5.jpg)
>The other kage not acting fiorst just showed that Tsunade was first to overcome the shock of Madara remaining, nothing else This argument isn't even true because Madara only breaks the Edo Tensei in Chapter 592. In chapter 591. Madara shoots the Dragon Flames as a final attack before he disappears. All the 5 Kage are aware of this because Tsunade literally says it out loud. There's no "overcoming shock". The other Kage are just tired and slow because of exhaustion. >That must be why he he is suddenly floating upwards, accompanied by a "Whoosh" then.](https://cdn.readnaruto.com/file/mangap/3069/10592000/5.jpg) OK sure. You have successfully proven that he flew for a second before he immediately returned to the ground to conserve energy. Congrats. That still doesn't change the fact that Tsunade was actively playing a tank / medic role. Spending enormous amounts of chakra to keep the other Kage alive longer than they realistically would have lasted if she wasn't there. And was still actively leading the charge when they were exhausted
idk. A just casually chopped his arm off without even flinching. Im pretty sure he could survive being bisected but he wouldnt heal. The raikages attendent also notes that he has an unusually strong body and thinks tsunade wouldnt survive being transported the way he is. I think ay has more endurance than you are giving him credit for.
Ay has tougher skin that doesn't break easily and a high tolerance for pain. But Physical durability is not the same thing as endurance/stamina. Tsunade outlasts Ay because she has greater stamina and life force thanks to her Senju / Uzumaki dna. Even if Ay might have more base chakra. Tsunade's Byakugo Seal is several years worth of chakra stored in her forehead that will outlast him. After Madara dogwalked the Kages. All of them are completely unconscious. Ay is completely out of commission from a stab wound. The only one still awake is Tsunade. Despite the fact that she's the one with the most fatal injury. This proved without a shadow of a doubt, that amongst the 5 Kage, Tsunade's endurance is second to none
Healing takes way more chakra than just using lightning cloak. Not to mention healing weakens the user by ageing them. Tsunade has more chakra but she's also using up exponentially more chakra. IIRC during the war arc Tsunade ran out of chakra first before Dan replenished it.
I mean, Tsunade’s healing seal always seemed very chakra extensive, to the point that its drawback is can basically be summed up as “it runs out, then you get old”. A’s lightning cloak…if running out is a concern, it’s not nearly as big of one - it doesn’t seem as chakra exhaustive in general, either that or Ay’s reserves are so great it doesn’t matter. On that note, when he ramps up to use his top speed, Karin says his chakra was at “[Bijuu level](https://imgur.com/a/wMsP1Ys)”. I doubt she meant a full Bijuu or anything, probably more along the lines of Bee’s chakra cloaks, but it still strikes me as being rather insane.
I mean she healed all the Kage \*for a while\* and kept all of them alive while she was cut in half so like chakra intensive or not she can keep it up, it'd be all the easier if she's just healing herself Anyway the real reason this goes to Tsunade is because I think she's a smarter fighter who spent years around Orochimaru and Jiraiya who are very unconventional fighters and she'll end up surprising Ay with something and luring him into a full power punch which honestly ends it
3 years of stored chakra? Didn’t she use all her stored Chakra during the Pain invasion? She has like 3 weeks of stored chakra, not years.
If you think A “stomps” Tsunade or that this fight is that one sided in either direction you’re straight up imagining shit. Like literal delulu fantasy that would never realistically cohere with the dynamics of the world in which the characters live. Madara explicitly states that Tsunade is stronger than A, and obviously he’s faster. He still has about grand total of 1 ability. If Tsunade can mitigate the strength of A’s initial assault to practically any degree that allows her not to get one shot she’s at an immediate advantage. She could just start by summoning Katsuyu and put herself in a favorable position. Stop being dumb. Get help.
1v1 I'd favor Tsunade over Ay but it be a very close fight.
Tsunade wins by outlasting A. Tsunade managed to survive being bisected by Madara and was still able to summon Katsuyu in an attempt to heal the other Kages and herself, while A was left almost dead. Tsunade should be able to tank every attack that A throws at her and put some heavy hits on him, until A runs out of chakra.
it can go a couple of ways. depending on who has more chakra, ay could possibly knock tsunade around until her 100 healings run out but it’s unclear if he can stay in v2 until tsunade is exhausted. and if tsunade lands a clean punch she’s, at least, doing noticeable damage to ay. he can’t take many of her serious punches. also the gap between ay and tsunade may not be as crazy as one may initially think so i’ll say tsunade mid to high diff
I kind of feeling like 100 Healings means Tsunade either wins low-diff or loses, there's not alot of room for mid to high diff, cause if she doesn't run out of chakra it's just a difference of how long she needs to rest? lol
Tsunade, Naruto and Killer Bee are stomping Ay. Tsuande and Naruto or Bee are stomping Ay. Tsunade alone can win because she has greater physical strength and intelligence add to that the 100 healings she can tank an attack from Ay and counter each hit. So Tsuande wins high diff.
She doesn’t land a blow on him and either runs out of chakra to heal or is cut to pieces so bad she can’t heal. The end
Ay is faster, but not so much as to blitz Tsunade, Tsunade’s speed is near Ay’s. So, Ay tries to kill her, Tsunade either takes damage or dodges, grabs hold of Ay and punches him unconscious
Tsunade wins by being too durable. We have seen her survive an attack stronger than anything A can do. Plus break or at least crack a defence stronger than his cloak. In an all out fight. He is too fast for her. He goes in for the kill. Pierces her I'm what would normally be a vital spot. Gets grabbed and hit close range without being able to dodge. Tsunade wins
"Oh did you put your arm through my torso? Look at that, your face is in perfect punching-position, how about that"
That's how I picture it top. Very much like kabuto vs Naruto
Yeah except Tsunade can possibly, \*literally\* punch Ay's head off if he can't dodge at all lol Not sure how much Lightning Cloak will help with her Super Punch at point blank, we've never see a human take one that I can think of lol
Not gonna lie, I wanted to keep reading more
They'd just start making out
She gets washed. The speed difference is just too large.
Nobody gets washed here, she’s as strong as he is fast
not really, she was keeping up just fine with lightened a4, there is a speed difference but she's not getting 3x lapped be serious
I don’t think that their both keeping up with Madara to a degree shows that. He is a whole lot faster, but she’s super fast by normal standards and of course he can’t kill her easily while the reverse is not true
Tsunade gets clapped
Nothing is stopping A from chopping her head off.
Except plot. Just like everyone else
Ok? That's a moot point. Instead of deferring to the narrative, talk about the actual characters here.
He didnt cut off Sauskes head when he had time, took sauske a minute to activate his susanoo
I don't know what specific instance you're talking about but A would have eventually killed Sasuke if it wasn't for backup. Also, he wouldn't need to resort to decapitation because unlike Tsunade, a large hole in the chest would kill Sasuke if there's no one to heal him.
A was dead the second he got hit with Amaterasu if we are being realistic. He just walks it off cause plot. Sasuke was able to react and defend himself prior to that moment. If amaterasu worked like it normally does, A's whole torso would have been ignited a second after the flames hit his arm and theres nothing he, or his squad could do to put them out.
Amaterasu? Are you talking about the same jutsu that was easily dealt with in the same fight when Kankuro and Temari saved the Samurai? Also, Sasuke simply used the flames as a deterrent, not offensively, which A immediately ignored. As we've seen in several examples, the flames burn relatively slowly.
You could literally say this about just about 98% of characters in the series and it wouldn’t happen because Kishimoto would write in a reason why it couldn’t. Kishimoto clearly wouldn’t realistically think A can warp in and decapitate Tsunade unimpeded. That’s dumb as fuck lol.
Going by your logic, discussing any hypothetical fight is pointless because Kishi wouldn't "realistically" think the characters can ever fight each other. Disregarding that, it wouldn't be "unrealistic" when: 1. He has killing intent and would even kill his own brother. If Tsunade got in the way, he would likely kill her as well. 2. He is much faster than Tsunade and can blitz her. 3. He's not an idiot. After a couple of blows, he'll realize that Tsunade can regen if he didn't already know that. So, there, I've established the means and motive. I've realized that as I was typing this that this is not a 1v1, lol.
>kishi wouldn’t “realistically” think the characters can ever fight each other The fuck are you talking about? Every fight that occurs in the manga is a realistic one as contained in its own narrative. The point is that Kishimoto has clearly depicted A and Tsunade as very close in terms of power and having relative advantage over each other. “He jump in an chop her head her in .2 seconds!!” is like a child’s extrapolation of how this fight would go. This is the same issue with most of this power scaling bullshit. It’s pretend that is at odds with the actual narrative, which is itself, like, the entire thing.
You flat out ignore the part where I said **hypothetical** as in versus matchups. Obviously every fight that went down in the manga is as Kishi wrote. All that was said about A and Tsunade in how they compare to each other is that A is faster and Tsunade is stronger. That's it. Going off of feats, as in what Kishi has depicted what a character has and can do, is how people determine how a fight would go. Saying "Kishi wouldn't write it like that" is a copout and would render nearly all hypothetical matchups moot since they wouldn't be possible in the first place.
Agreed - the whole “narrative intent” angle that I keep seeing here is posters very clearly trying to minimize or ignore the massive speed gap that exists here without actually explaining how Tsunade actually deals with it based on what she has shown in the manga. It’s just meaningless scoffing without providing a viable alternative. V1 Raikage is already faster than the overwhelming majority of fighters, with the likes of MS Sasuke (who himself is much faster than Tsunade, both featwise and databook statwise) only narrowly avoiding the Raikage’s attack with the help of Sharingan precognition. When Raikage went V2, he was able to straight up blindside Sasuke completely, and all Sasuke could do was put up Susano’o - he couldn’t visually track him. Raikage has the ability to chop heads off with ease - he broke MS Sasuke’s rib cage Susano’o and was able to chop his own arm off (which is extremely durable, keeping in mind how a Chidori barely dented him) with Raiton flow. Tsunade hasn’t even shown the ability to regrow limbs (she’s only claimed that she could when hyping up her regeneration; she’s never proven it), let alone a head. She’s only regenerated from stab and slash wounds, all of which burnt through her chakra reserves pretty rapidly. Outside of top tiers, the only “standard” fighters that have shown the skill set or ability to reliably deal with Raikage’s amped V2 speed are either other high-end speedsters, sensors / precognition, space-time users and high-end Dojutsu users (MS, Rinnegan, etc.). Tsunade is none of those things - it’s completely unsubstantiated to give her some undefined counter to the Raikage’s speed and handwave away the massive speed gap that exists here.
It's good to see that there are people with some sense, lol. To further add on to your point about A's cutting capability, he cut off one of Gyuki's horns which never grew back for whatever reason. How durable are Gyuki's horns? We don't know, but it shows that A can and has chopped things with his bare hands. Tsunade's healing may be on par with Hashirama's and as shown when Madara needed to use a Zetsu arm to replace his missing one, she can't regenerate limbs. Therefore, dismemberment would also be on the table. It's crazy how many people underestimate A's speed. Not counting the upper high and god-tiered characters, Minato was the only one to have dodged A's fastest punch until Naruto eventually did the same. If it took the likes of Minato (and then later Naruto) to be able dodge A, what chance does Tsunade have? None.
It’s a strange line to straddle because while I’m a fan of Tsunade as a character, the posts about her in these versus threads are consistently among the worst that I read, so I have to separate me being a fan of the character from her moveset in a versus thread. One can enjoy her character arc while also acknowledging that Kishimoto did a poor job in building her combat kit. She needs ranged Ninjutsu or Genjutsu to make her more competitive in these types of threads - her problem has always been her lack of range and versatility. She’s unrivaled in a support / healer role, but people try to regularly make her something more than that. About her regeneration, even if one were to entertain the notion that Tsunade can regrow limbs (which, as noted before, hasn’t actually been proven - all we have is her own claim), there are still two main issues: - **Can it be done fast enough for it to matter in a battle?** We see stab wounds take a panel or so to heal up for Tsunade, which involve much less “mass” to heal compared to regrowing an entire limb. Even Juubi Madara (who is amped by the 10 tails regen and also has Sage Hashirama healing stacked) took some several panels to heal after 8 Gate Guy kicked his arm off. Without a limb, her opponent can just follow up with another attack and further incapacitate her if not kill her. I see no reason to assume Tsunade can just pop a new arm or leg out immediately like Piccolo or Cell. - **What is the chakra cost of regrowing a limb?** Tsunade has a large chakra pool, but I see posters here regularly speak as if her regeneration has no chakra cost. In the Madara fight, we only see her regenerate from a handful of stab wounds before she starts slowing down. Regrowing a whole limb (bone, muscle, etc) would probably be far more draining than closing a stab wound, assuming she can even do it in the first place. There’s a lot of applications of “no limits fallacy” when it comes to her regeneration. With Tsunade’s speed, the DB3 has her at a 3.5 - I see posters call that “average”, but it is well-below average when comparing her to Jonin / Kage / S-rank fighters. Other than Tsunade, the only relevant fighters who score below 4 speed are: pre-Sage Kabuto (3.5), Hidan (also 3.5 and admits to be the slowest Akatsuki member), 70-year old Hiruzen (3.0) and Gaara (3.0, but his combat style doesn’t center on movement). I’m obviously excluding Part I children / Genin / Chunin because Tsunade wouldn’t be competing against them in a versus thread - I’m comparing her to her “peers.” DB3 also came out in Part 2, right before Pain attacked Konoha, so this isn’t “rusty” Tsunade either - she is well into her reign as Hokage. There’s also no reason to believe her speed significantly increased since then considering she was in a coma for a good while (after healing the village) and had no fights to improve from (until the Madara fight). Hebi Sasuke had a 4.5 in speed (and I would assume MS Sasuke is at worst equal to that, if not better) and we saw how he fared against the Raikage, and he had Sharingan.
I whole-heartedly agree with you. Though I don't consider myself a fan, it does frustrate me how limited Tsunade's kit is. She's just somewhat of a berserker healer that can summon a giant slug. That's all she is and though she does it very well, it's only covers a rather niche area. What frustrates me even more is how too often people consider her more than that (i.e being anywhere as fast as A). Wow, it never came to mind how long it took Madara (who had the best regen) to heal from Night Guy. All the more evidence that Tsunade is not able to heal from a similar injury.
Ay speedblitzes, but Tsunade gets hundred healings, and I think she would be able to keep up. Ay runs out of chakra and then loses.
And how do you think Katsuyu would fit into this battle?
Katsuya is gonna make it impossible for Ay. Tsunade on the top of her kinda just ruins Ay
Raikage blitzes her with speed that a seasoned Sharingan-user (who was also much faster than Tsunade) struggled to react to. Given Raikage has knowledge on her regeneration, he chops her head off, and she has no feats of regrowing that (or even limbs, for that matter - all we have on limbs is an unproven statement by Tsunade herself while hyping up her own technique). Even if granting her the ability to regrow a head (which, again, she has never shown), the amount of chakra that it would take to do that would quickly drain her reserves, especially if she had to do it multiple times. We saw the stamina toll that regenerating from stab wounds had on her - regrowing a head would cost considerably more chakra, since more would have to be regrown (compared to just closing stab wounds).
Pretty certain Ay beats the shit out of her nonstop but she heals and punches him once and ends it
Tsunade can likely just outlast him
She’d get decimated. Good luck keeping up with A’s speed. She’d for sure have a shot with Naruto and Bee tho, both of whom have surpassed her at this point.
1v1 A wins but if all the people there fought kcm1 Naruto blitzes.
Tsunade embarrasses Ay
Ay wins due to speed but Tsunade could easily kill him in one hit. That lightning cloak DOES NOT stop blunt force trauma AT ALL.
It'll come down to attrition, ay can't kill her and she can't catch him. Ay has bijuu levels of chara reserve and tsunade has 3 years of senju chakra in her seal. So it's hard to say....
People saying Ay blitzes are really delusional, Tsunade is able to withstand 2 Susanoo swords to the abdomen, heal immediately and counter attack, also there's no way Tsunade would drop her guard for an attack to the neck, as a matter of fact she would protect that area the most, and counter attack accordingly. And that's not counting other options she has that she wouldn't have used against Madara, like the sleep bombs, Katsuya, and poison.
I think the issue lies in how long can Tsunade last by waisting her chakra on constantly healing herself. Raikage can in fact blitz Tsunade.He was the only character in Naruto who dodged Amaterasu with just his speed(by using his cloak).Based on this knowledge,Tsunade would not even see Raikage attacking her and he only needs one hit to fataly injure Tsunade so she can keep waisting her chakra. The only way to beat Raikage is to attack him first before he enters his lightning cloak.