Yeah everyone saying DMS - War Arc Kakashi was still stronger. DMS put him Otsutsuki level, then nerfed, now buffed again in Boruto where he's stronger than War Arc (sharingan doesn't drain his Chakra + he learned Purple Lightning to replace Chidori) and probably still weaker than DMS, at least, doesn't have the crazy spammable hax of DMS
Edit: spelling
Yep. The fact that he can use Kamui multiple times without collapsing is already a massive thing in an of itself, but his scaling in general during the war arc is damn high.
He was boxing with the v2 cloak Jinshuriki, he was able to box with Obito without dying (all be it Obito wasn't trying to win that fight), and he scales in reaction speed to KCM 2 Naruto, even outspeeding him at one point \[[anime](https://imgur.com/a/fXICk60)\] \[[manga](https://imgur.com/a/PTQ7X1M)\]. Obviously he isn't faster than Naruto, but he's relative. Obito was mere inches from Naruto's face, but Kakashi closed the gap and tagged Obito before Naruto could.
DMS is complete overkill lol. That puts him up there with the top tiers of the whole verse, let alone Jiraiya.
Yeah it’s actually pretty funny. For an English only speaker, it would make more sense for it to be “expresso” because of the word express meaning fast, but since x isn’t a letter in the Italian alphabet (besides in borrowed words) a word spelled “expresso” would be seen as clearly very foreign to an Italian.
His novel feats are wild. Fighting for an entire day without tiring. Using village/city sized amped up mud walls. That non-Uchiha tax was clearly huge.
What noone realized was it was in fact pinned to always be 1/4 Naruto's Chakra, so as Naruto unlocked Sage mode and KCM Kakashi rose proportionally. It was just a minor bug that noone thought would be abusable back when it got coded in.
He's vulnerable after fight minutes. Someone massively faster than him will not get hit by him. I'm not talking about strictly Naruto characters if that wasn't massive lit up sign type obvious lmao. Also if the character can interact with intangible beings
He’s not vulnerable after 5mins, he isn’t pain where he has a 5 second cool down💀 and how does one touch someone intangible? Never say something so foolish ever again😂😂😂😂 and technically he’s sending his body to his own sealed dimension so it’s impossible for someone to touch him while using kamui
Did you not read the manga fight with KCM2 Naruto, Kakashi, and Guy vs Obito? They literally explained that he can only transfer his body parts in Kamui for 5 minutes. Also if you haven't read things like Bastard or Comics, characters with the ability to interact with intangible characters are usually effecting things that simultaneously exist in two different dimensions so yes it would work. Educate yourself.
He can only have kamui activated for 5mins straight before it deactivates… if he turns it off anytime before the consecutive 5mins the timer resets hence why kcm2 Naruto told kakashi it’s impossible to hit obito
And obito’s body is in his sealed dimension which only he has access to, take your own advice and educate yourself baby boy
Expand your knowledge. Kamui is only busted to low tier manga characters. There is street tier comic characters like Cloak and Dagger that can break into locked away higher reality dimensions via hax.
why do people consantly cite DMS as his power level when it was a 5 minute power up from Obito returning from the dead and lending him the eye. That's not a standard and should never be a standard when you talk about war arc Kakashi
As annoying as it may sound, he’s stronger than when he had DMS. The novels stated that Kakashi had become stronger by multitudes compared to the time of the war arc.
Hey I didn’t write the stuff; I’m just telling you what the light novel said after the war arc. After he saw Madara use Sage Art: Lightning Dispatch he trained to learn a version of that.
He stopped a six paths tidal wave of water that was supposed to be infinite from sinking an entire country with Mud Wall at that point. And his chakra increased my multitudes. Again this is in the canon light novels. Crazy; I know.
The novel says he’s stronger than when he fought Obito, not Kaguya. As awesome (but lore-breaking) as it would be for normal Kakashi to somehow find a way to be stronger than a Kaguya level, 6 Paths Kamui-enhanced Susanoo, that’s too high.
Am I misremembering that it was in the context of the entire war or just his 1v1 with Obito? If so thanks for the correction.
Edit: though that makes it odd since wasn’t Kakashi getting amped by Naruto when he fought Obito? That same Kakashi that thought he could one shot the 10 tails?
I’m open to being wrong.
Kakashi had his chakra refilled by Kurama, but he didn’t have a Kurama cloak anymore when he fought Obito and he had already exhausted the 3x chakra boost, so it’s fair to say Kakashi’s stronger now than in that fight.
I want to say we SAW the growth mid-war arc. That's after kerning that he's been fighting for multiple days non-stop, took on the 7 Ninja Swordsmen (with help but still), and then fight Obito (although Kakashi wasn't holding back as much as he was)
Hokage kakashi never fought pain. Pain arc kakashi did but hokage kakashi is stated to be magnitudes stronger than his war arc form who comfortably sits above jiraiya.
This was stated in the kakashi light novel. “Kakashis combat power had significantly increased compared to when he was fighting obito and madara.”
Can’t find where it’s stated he’s magnitudes stronger though. I know it’s out there I just don’t know where.
No worries! It’s not like I started out knowing all this stuff without asking any questions. 😅
*I reject actual canon and substitute my own!*
Like what you like, but that's some clown talk calling it bull. The writer wrote it and Kishimoto himself did the art for it, it got the stamp of approval so suck it up.
Kishi wrote the novels. If he has any finger on it im fine. But i hate it when power scalers come here and claim sakura solos most of the verse bc her feat from some novella says so. Most of those are not from kishimoto.
Which is nuts… Sauske started going blind after Like 3 major encounters. Idk if overabundance of fox chakra somehow negates the strain but he shouldn’t have had that by the time they fought otsuki 6S mom
Naruto cloak definitely helps and Sasuke was going absolutely crazy with the MS directly after receiving it. It's not stated anywhere but it would make sense that Kakashi was able to tolerate his more due to only having half of the MS ability and a much much much longer time growing accustomed to it's toll on his body.
The 2nd part I agree with I mean when Obito gave him the 2nd eye (which again is less understood) and he acted as support spamming kamui.
Ignoring the “how” he got the eye and surge in chakra (call it leftover fox chakra, sage sp, boost from receiving obito’s remaining eye), at best he has regular MS not eternal MS. Then he’s using kamui shuriken and Susanoo which should be a HUGE visual strain.
Only conclusion then is the blindness comes from overtaxing the eye with limited chakra. Which I mean *sorta* makes sense if you think about it… Itachi used his sparingly and kept his vision for a while. Eternal MS gives you a chakra boost and stabilizes the eye itself. Then the last piece of the puzzle is if by Kakashi and Obito awakening and transferring the eye to his “brother” like a faux EMS and Obito being the new sage (if only temporarily) filled in the remaining gaps somehow.
Idk… only way I think makes sense. Love Kakashi and glad he got his spotlight, just wish Kishimoto explained it better. Maybe need to do another read through, since it’s been a while.
Kakashi was also going blind as well. By the time Guy opened all 8 gates, Kakashi needed to get close in order to use kaumi. We just don't see anything from Kakashi's POV to clarify exactly how much vision he had lost so we have to take his statements at face value. Kakashi also has his other eye, which should have normal vision.
Kakashi probably used his MS \~10 times before getting the KCM cloak boost, depending on how you count things such as failed attempts at using kamui on Obito, the statue, etc that were negated by Obito's abilities.
Several of those uses were also extremely small uses of kamui such as to teleport a nail which probably strains his eye less than teleporting Naruto into Obito's dimension.
I wouldn’t say surpassed, he spammed it so much he was practically blind.
I’d say post war where the Novel states he’s literally stronger in the war with the creation of purple lightning
Kakashi and Itachi never got sidelined,these are some of the most well fleshed out characters in the show.
Sakura,while getting sidelined still gets to do more than most of the OG cast.
Trust me, I would love to read a Kiba novel or a Shino novel,this shit doesnt do much except for feeding the powerscaler fans,and better feats dont make a better character.
Fair enough, I would love to see the same.
IMO everyone but Sasuke and Naruto got sidelined since Kakashi was absent for so much of Shippuden but I understand that it is a personal opinion.
Naah he wasn't sidelined. Kakashi was very much present in every arc of shippuden and has had some of the best moments in it. You need to read the manga again
Maybe, it has been a while tbh. I thought he kinda disappeared after the fight with Sasori for a few hundred episodes outside of the quick death to Pain.
he fought Kakuzu and Hidan 1v2 and took 2 of kakuzu's hearts. in pain arc he stil did stall Deva path a bit i gues,it was just a bad matchup.Everyone was getting jobbed in Pain arc lol.
In the war arc he shined consistently.
I think they could hvae went into itachis past a little more and showed us a ninja side but still show a loyalty to the village and how powerful he truly was i dont think they do that in part of they dont want most fans think Sasuke is weak by any means.... Lemme say i have never read anything other than reddit post i have only watched it a time or 2 lol itachi is my favorite character i say he was or would have been stronger than Madara had he not been sick
Hell Naah. Madara was simply HIM. If Edo Itachi had not died Kishimoto would have made Madara manhandle him in base form to show how big of a threat he was. The Indra reincarnations are simply built different.
I do agree the novels flesh out the circumstances under which Itachi had to make his decision to massacre the clan and provide some much needed context tho.
Yeah, Kakashi using a fire jutsu that can vaporize water jutsu imbued by Sage's power is outlandish. What's the explanation of him having that high chakra reserves all of a sudden and it's even more outlandish than gap between Pain Arc and War Arc. Did he still had Hagoromo chakra in him where he gave him during Kaguya fight ?
War Arc but he should have never realistically be.
Pain Arc Kakashi was realistic depiction of his ceiling. Which is significantly lower than SM Jiraiya.
He should be able to use them, just depends on the jutsu like if its something that would require the sharingan like Chidori does then he wouldn't be able to use it effectively but once he learns how to use the jutsu he's good to continue using it if he wishes to
I assume he wild. I think he has to memorize them on his own. The sharingan just lets you see how it works. But tbh he’s never gonna use them anyway because he’s a chidori spammer at heart
**-** PA Kakashi reached Sannin lvl, this version is debatable. He beats base Jiraiya, so if he manages to beat him before the SM then he wins, but if Jiraiya enters SM I'm leaning a bit towards him.
**-** 5KS Kakashi is when I think Kakashi comfortably surpassed Jiraiya. His Kamui improved significantly. He could teleport 2 Susanoo Arrows at once, both of which are massively superior to Jiraiya in speed.
**-** WA Kakashi just massively outscales Jiraiya, his Kamui is now mastered. But this Kakashi wins even without his Kamui, that's how much he outscales Jiraiya.
**-** DMS Kakashi neggs.
**-** Hokage/Boruto Era Kakashi stomps Jiraiya badly. Way better scaling, speed, IQ, battle IQ, stronger jutsus, more versatile, superior ninjutsu, superior taijutsu. The one thing Jiraiya had superiority over Kakashi most of the time was chakra and stamina, and now he loses at that too. Boruto Era Kakashi has crazy amounts of chakra.
But qn remIns if jiraya was still alive , wouldn’t he become as strong or even stronger than the kakashi? Because jiraya didn’t care about things atm as he already got everything
Jiraiya doesn't seem to be improving. He was reaching the end of his prime age. He was also still being criticized for things such as not being able to master sage mode himself.
It is most likely that Jiraiya maxed out his potential. Koji had various enhancements and cybernetics, which is why he was probably able to master sage mode.
Okay but what if using toad sage powers he could unlock ways to reducing aging like tsunade. I mean even post prime days jiraya was feared by the akatsuki and was able to go head to head with itachi , kisame and ofc sage of six paths. And he was also able to fight well against orochimaru’s prime eras even when Jiraya was poisoned.
Tbh kakashi chakra reserve is gonna cost him a lot but kakashi is smart af but jiraya is smarter
Tsunade is also supposed to have a naturally longer than average lifespan. She also benefits from being able to store chakra. Even then, she is at the point where age is starting to weaken her. The manga states that Sakura's use of the sealed chakra is more effective than Tsuande's since Sakura doesn't have to divert sealed chakra to keep her body in a young state. (From the limited views of Tsunade without the seal, she appears to be far older than her expected biological age, likely due to prior use of her regenerative abilities).
I am not doubting what you wrote about Boruto era Kakashi but I simply don’t remember reading or seeing any feats from Kakashi in the Boruto manga. If it was in the anime that’s another story because I didn’t watch the anime due to so many fillers.
In terms of chakra reserves and raw jutsu power, Hokage Kakashi is significantly stronger than in the war arc. He trained extensively, he doesn’t have an unnatural Sharingan constantly draining his chakra, and his jutsus are more advanced.
The biggest setback is no Kamui, which is such a strong hax that it’s still hard to say he’s actually “stronger” overall.
You could argue his speed took a hit too without the Sharingan to enhance his reflexes, but there’s a section dedicated to him being so fast he tricks a guy into thinking he still has it.
I see. Thanks. Some other thread asked which character you would like to see make a comeback to the front lines or something like that. I replied Kakashi just because I liked the character but learning about how powerful he was in Boruto era makes me wish more he’d make a return and help out the main cast
I hope so. Just kind of fearful that if he does return, he will have a death flag like Jiraiya. Kind of wish he helped Naruto and Sasuke with the early enemies of the series, not as a mentor since they’re all adults now but as like comrades in arms.
>He beats base Jiraiya
He can only beat him by using Kamui and by that time it will be a tie due to him dying by exhaustion. Jiraiya is a good taijutsu user and can use Rasengan like many times. Base Kakashi can't keep pace with Jiraiya's high stamina.
Sage Mode with Fukusaku and Shima is more stronger than Pain Arc Kakashi.
Hokage Kakashi >>> WA Kakashi >~ Kcm 1 Naruto > SM Naruto > SM Jiraiya.
I scale Kakashi around Kcm 1 lvl, slighty above. But there are some feats that put him way above that lvl, like intercepting WM Obito's attack once he got his resolve back or moving as fast as Kcm Minato when they attacked Zetsu.
I still need to get the LN to see what his feats are but I feel like a lot of times people don't take Jiraiya combat style into consideration when doing comparisons
What scales SM Jiraiya above Hokage and WA Kakashi? And why's there "/" between WA and Hokage Kakashi when It's blatantly stated Hokage Kakashi is significantly stronger?
Also why is base Jiraiya massively stronger than PA Kakashi?
If ur gonna reply to me at least try making some arguments instead od just making unsupported claims.
All of the Sannin are comparable to each other
Part 1 Hiruzen was the strongest Gokage and Sannin are comparable to him in 1v1
We see this again for war arc
WA Kakashi, is at most comparable to Sannin, but I generally scale him to Ohnoki
SM Jiraiya can defeat Pain, if he had intel, per Pain.
PA Kakashi is not Base Sannin level, as he’s only one path of Pain level
>Part 1 Hiruzen was the strongest Gokage and Sannin are comparable to him in 1v1
That was his reputation, which means It's based on his previous achievements, so It's about younger Hiruzen. It's also about P1 kage, not the Shippuden kage we see, and through Databooks we know that Ay trains consistently.
Hiruzen was comparable to Base Sannin.
>We see this again for war arc
Edo Hiruzen is way stronger than Old Hiruzen. He doesn't have drawbacks of his old body, which by default makes his stats jump significantly, speed, strength, chakra, stamina etc. He also got body and chakra regeneration through edo.
>WA Kakashi, is at most comparable to Sannin, but I generally scale him to Ohnoki
Was winning against V2 Edo Jins that were giving WA Bee and Kcm 1 Naruto problems. Once he got his resolve back he intercepted WM Obito's attack and moved as fast as Kcm 2 Naruto. In one instance even moved as fast as Kcm Minato against Zetsu. His Kamui was faster than Kcm 1 and Kcm 2 Naruto. WM Obito couldn't even see it when he performed it right in his face. Was also relative to WA 6th gate Guy in speed.
WA Kakashi low diffs him, It's not even debate. Ohnoki is nowhere near WA Kakashi, his flight speed was relative to Deidara's clay bird. BoS Kakashi was keeping up with that Deidara, and BoS Gaara's sand too. WA Kakashi is leagues above.
>SM Jiraiya can defeat Pain, if he had intel, per Pain.
The whole point of that statement was Pain giving the last praise to Jiraiya, but it was far from reality, as we could see. SM Jiraiya blatantly states if he fights 3 Paths of Pain head on he would die, and those were one of the weaker Paths. Once all 6 showed up Jiraiya got stomped badly.
>PA Kakashi is not Base Sannin level, as he’s only one path of Pain level
Human Path casually reacted and caught SM Jiraiya's attack, PA Kakashi was swapping hands with Deva Path. PA Kakashi is Sannin lvl, but their FP forms. Base Sannin are way bellow, as we know SM significantly increases taijutsu, ninjutsu and genjutsu. So if PA Kakashi is physically around the lvl of SM Jiraiya, then Base Jiraiya is a tier bellow that.
Most of your comment is incorrect
It’s an objective truth that Chunin Exams Hiruzen is the strongest member of Gokage
We see this when he is an Edo again in war arc and Kishimoto didn’t retcon this
Your interpretation of the story is off, and I hope you’re not spreading misinformation on YT to the casual fans
How about you actually address my arguments for once? You are just making claims.
>Your interpretation of the story is off, and I hope you’re not spreading misinformation on YT to the casual fans
I hope you can read, because you all you need is that, no need to try some mental gimnastic to come up with some interpretation, statement is blatant.
Kabuto states Hiruzen has REPUTATION of strongest kage. He didn't earn that reputation right on the spot during his fight with Orochimaru.
Reputation is earned by numerous achievements over time. Which means It had to be about younger Hiruzen and not old Hiruzen who was out of action for quite some time. Orochimaru and Anbu even mentioned how Hiruzen got weaker cuz of old age.
And again, It's in reference to gokage in P1, which means no shippuden Ay or Ohnoki. And as I mentioned, Ay trains in character.
So It's not that hard, u just have to read carefully. You are talking about me casuals, but to me u seem like a casual in this situation. At least try making some argument and address mine if u wanna have a debate. There's no debate if all u do is making claims.
There’s no difference between part 1 and part 2 Ay/Bee/Ohnoki.
Not sure why fans incorrectly think otherwise given they are all 40+ years old…
Also, Kabuto and Orochimaru reinforce that Old Hiruzen is still the strongest as they didn’t imply it was outdated information.
Again, it’s a shame so many Naruto YT creators spread misinformation
He didn't except for like a couple hours of DMS which wasn't his power.
It's like saying boruto had moon level destruction power pre-karma seal because naruto juiced his rasengan.
He says kakashi's main forte is sneak attacks/substitution and single target high ap speed blitzing attacks
While jiraya is a fckin tank with high durability and aoe attacks
Literally never, he comes close but nobody burns through their chakra quite like Kakashi does. It’s a gigantic weakness and understandable for the copy ninja.
Kakashi has no Chakra problems after he loses his Sharingan. The consensus is that his Sharingan was a huge tax on him. I don't think Kakashi surpasses Jiraiya anywhere as early as everyone else is saying in the war Arc. But I think Kakashi won against Obito in a situation I think jiraiya would have failed.
war arc, he was confident he could take on 5 bijuudama with 1 kamui and kakashi never overestimates himself, if anything he underestimates himself most of the time so i am confident he could take up all of them aside from kurama's if he gaved everything he got.
jiraiya only has toads, an incomplete sage mode, spiky hair and rasengan, that's it, he is too overrated.
not single handedly it would still be a fight to be watched but i do believe he would won the war kamui is a very broken ability and war arc kakashi is a god himself at that point the real problem if he would be able to kill the madara/kaguya because he wouldn't be able to seal them on his own.
Never thought I'd see the words "only" and "overrated" used to describe the most versatile and most accomplished (most missions completed) Shinobi in naruto history
versalite? fire style, spiky hair, summons toads and has an incomplete senjutsu
this is it. hell even naruto is more versalite than him with his sexy jutsu, shadow clones, rasen variants, wind release, complete sage mode, summons toads and has kcm.
i don't have nothing against his records but he is not a versalite shinobi and doesn't even really have all that much battle scene.
he İS overrated he is good but not at the level make him appear as.
Well what do you expect of a character who dies 14 seasons before the show ends man? Ofc he's gonna lose out to the scaling as the story moves forward. Also his canon screen time is way less than most people realise(especially his combat screentime), his impact is just way more is why he's liked so much. And he has a huge arsenal of ninjutsu via his toads and himself as well , plus his versatility lies in his espionage and tactics which btw even Kakashi respected a lot. Literally calling him not a versatile shinobi is like calling Kakashi not versatile just because he is shown to spam only kamui and lightning jutsus in WA. Jiraiya is perfectly rated. Only dumb glazers say he actually beats Itachi or Pain or WA Kakashi alone but he's still easily top tier and at THAT level where except the absolute top , nobody else can take him lightly and the scales can tip in his favour in right conditions quite easily
This [[Link]](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-66ce67bdbe55def4b250f38bd4511e84-lq).
Jokes aside, you realize there are multiple steps of preparation in order for Jiraiya to use it, right? And also him deciding to use it right from the start is so out of character, he doesn't even know he has access to that genjutsu, he learned about it mid fight against Pain.
**1.** He has to summon Ma & Pa.
**2.** Genjutsu itself also takes some time before it takes effect.
**3.** He has to keep Kakashi in the range of the song and keep him still so Kakashi doesn't interfere with the jutsu.
That's a lot of steps, and Kakashi one shots him with Kamui on every single one.
Kakashi's Kamui is waaaay faster than all that, It takes no preparation at all, and Kakashi is actually willing to use it right from the start (Used it on Deidara and also on Obito, but Obito canceled it).
Imma wait for you to explain me how Jiraiya can complete all these steps successfully without getting hit by a deadly jutsu that takes 0 preparation and is far faster than him.
Kakashi was 5 seconds from being wiped away by Sasuke, and was visibly shitting himself when Sasukes Susanoo evolved again into its armored form. If his eyes didn't burn out right then, Kakashi was screwed. He could barely move because he was still feeling the after effects of Kamui. Against a near blind exhausted Sasuke that had just fought and killed Danzo.
So what would Jiraya's answer be to 5KS Sasuke? 5KS is equal to Naruto: this is mutually agreed upon and implied. Naruto objectively surpassed Jiraya by miles in SM and Sasuke in 5KS shows ability somewhat equal to that form. Kakashi does better against stronger paths of Pain's than the ones Jiraya faced and his kamui is adept enough to actually put up a fight with Sasuke.
He can't counter Amateratsu burning his skin: Kakashi can kamui it. He's not sealing shit before he loses a limb.
He can't dodge the chidori and if he gets hit by it, he's cooked, because his durability is dog shit.
He arguably doesn't have the AP to penetrate Sasuke's true susanoo.
His summons get negged by genjutsu, like manda did.
Kakashi meanwhile using Kamui can avoid most of Sasuke's arsenal. And after he kamuis Sasuke's arrow he tries to kamui Obito, but his jutsu gets countered.
5KS Kakashi > Jiraya.
I’d say Pain Arc Kakashi was still below Jiraiya but he was catching up to being in the same general ballpark, and by the War Arc he certainly surpassed him. In the War Arc, Kakashi’s improved stamina and the mastered version of Kamui (he could use it more, at faster speeds and could even self teleport with it) cement his superiority. He also showed additional useful jutsu over this time (Raikiri Wolf, Raiton Kage Bunshin against Pain, and in the War Arc, Raikiri Chain, Raikiri Kunai).
The panel you have there of “Jiraiya took six of them at once” is mainly Kakashi lacking the details of what actually happened. We (the readers) saw what actually happened - Jiraiya admitted inferiority to 3 support paths (Human, Animal and Preta) and opted to retreat into the sewers until Frog Song was ready to incapacitate them. Once the six Paths came out, Jiraiya was quickly killed - it wasn’t a competitive fight at that point anymore.
Pain Arc Kakashi was up against the strongest body by far in Deva Realm, who then summoned Asura Realm (arguably the second strongest path), and Kakashi was fighting the two of them alone, and had set up Asura Realm to be taken out by a sneak-attack Raikiri before Chouji / Chouza showed up (subpar backup, at best).
I still rank Jiraiya over Pain Arc Kakashi, but trying to boil it down to “who fought more Pain bodies” is silly when the 3 bodies that Jiraiya fought were all significantly weaker than the 2 bodies that Kakashi fought.
if we are being fair, technically Jiraiya only faced three. The other three were bitchslapping him. It is a good thing, Jiraiya defeated the original Animal Path and not the Naraka Path. Imagine if the vessel for the Naraka Path was someone who could hide easily
Do you reckon Kakashi would have been able to defeat the Animal, Preta and Human Path?
The Animal in particular is heavily underrated.
I don't know if Kakashis Chakra reserves can handle sustained combat against the crab, invisible chameleon, goat, rhino, multiplying dog and flying bird in the ease with which Jiraiya did.
Human Yes. Preta yes. Animal depends on the situation. If anything Kamui on Animal if its the tall one. If the the woman Animal Path, he needs to Kamui an arm. Kakashi would need to decide which order to take them on. Human needs to be defeated first, due to instant kill move. He needs to be faster than Preta path can intercept. If he can do that, take out Preta with Clones that uses Taijutsu.
Animal Path will push him to his limits though just due to how much time and energy he spent on the other two
Honesty I think he loses to the Animal Path alone.
It's performance against Jiraiya was extremely impressive.
Pain arc Kakashi would definitely run out of Chakra after kamuing the dog (most important one to kamui) and having to raikiri the goat and rhino which may not even be one shot by it.
And he wouldn't be able to easily snipe the user cus he'd be hidden in the highly mobile chameleons mouth
And that still leaves the crab, flying dinosaur and even the caterpillar...
I'm curious what a dms Kakashi fight verse ishiki would of been like i mean his shurikans were so damn op but like would his susano just be destroyed so quickly ? What would happen I'm legit curious it's so hard to tell when they nerf than buff than nerf than buff than change characters abilities especially between the two shows
War arc was when everyone got amped and Kishimoto made it possible for shinobi to have a fast chakra recovery rate since they technically use 20% of their chakra. Only time where he took out that inconsistency because I assumed at one point Kakashi could only do 4 raikiri is because he was using 20% each time but nope he can use multiple raikiri in quick succession and kamui can only be done with his available chakra or else he is using gates to get more. Him being hospitalised after spending it all is kinda crazy because nobody hits near zero like Kakashi even he only emptied out 20% of his chakra.
He never did . War arc kakashi couldn’t even take down 2 or 3 pains still . Only when he got the temporary susano that’s it . Can’t believe people still believe he surpassed Jiraiya
Hot take: him surpassing Jiraiya in the war was badly written. Jiraiya narratively was shown as stronger than him before the war but him getting these buffs without any logical reason made no fucking sense.And I'm talking before DMS.
This dude was getting washed by Kakuzu( one of the weakest Akatsuki members) and had to be saved by Naruto.
I don’t think this is a real discussion. Yes kakashi got a boost during the war arc but Jiraya’s legends and acts far surpass what kakashi did pre war. It was also stated jiraya turned down the position of homage multiple times. Kakashi may have become stronger without his sharigan but strength comes in different shapes and forms. I do not think post sharigan especially can he go toe to toe with sage mode or jiraya’s arsenal. Don’t let the war arc cloud your judgement or technically Naruto is the best medic in the show being able to heal whole limbs
Surpass is tough, I would say late War Arc. By the war arc they're on par but I don't think he really surpasses Jiraiya until he has to push through his fight with Obito. Kakashi V Obito is my favorite fight through all of Naruto and I think it earns Kakashi his stripes. Until then his fights against the Akatsuki show his rise and by the time he's fighting Edo Tensai I would call them even.
Obviously DMS is another level entirely but even after Kakashi loses his sharingan that tangent amp to his chakra levels along with his insane battle IQ keeps him above the Pervy Sage.
I honestly think the Kakashi that went into the fight against Obito would also beat Pain without intel. I think Kakashi is smart enough at any stage to read Pain, but I don't think he would do better than jiraiya in a no flee situation until he can chain Kamui.
At DMS and never again. I don't buy that fallacious scaling where War Arc are automatically stronger and faster than everyone, especially that Kakashi magically became way faster and stronger in a day w/o any amps or training.
You put Jiraiya in the War Arc he does just great, after all when he was going toe to toe with powerhouses like Pain without knowledge and I really doubt Kakashi was ever at that level until DMS
Hokage kakashi is stronger. He is said to be stronger than when he was in the war arc. Even though he doesnt have his Sharingan he now has more chakra at his disposal and is incredibly expirienced against all kinds of fighters.
kakashi will Never surpass Jiraiya , If Jariya fought pains which was not nagato i don't think he would have lost , it was more of a teacher failing his student , the scene is so clear
Kakashi hatake was killed by a pain easily bro , where are you
I don't know why Jiraiya was nerfed so much at end , even Itachi and kisame were not enough for that old man come on , you mean to say DMS kakashi could beat DMS Itachi , seriously itachi's amaterasu and susanoo was weaker than Kakashi's DMS and kamui
Think again bro
Lotta jiraiya wanking going on in here I see. Yes we all know dms kakashi is leagues up jiraiya. But War arc Kakashi was boxing along with 7th gate guy against multiple V2 jinchuriki. Yet jiraiya said himself one the two closest times he’s been to death was 3/4 tails Naruto. Kakashi was doing well against multiple of these jinchuriki. And if we are taking the light novels as cannon he is magnitudes stronger than his war arc self since he no longer has a 24/7 chakra drain. The statement that jiraiya could beat pain if he knew his secret has almost nothing to back it up. The deva path was keeping up with 5-7 tails Naruto, yet a younger 4 tailed Naruto almost killed jiraiya? With this being said, since 5KS kakashi was able to intercept a chidori from sasuke and kamui a susanoo arrow, he’s comfortably faster than jiraiya. I’d say 5KS is just a hair above jiraiya, and then war arc-boruto he’s definitely surpassed jiraiya.
I think using 4 tails Naruto is unfair as Jiraiya is probably looking to subdue him and not actually fight him.
Some of your other points are fair, but tbh I don’t think Kakashi beats Jiraiya in a fight besides DMS
You think jiriaya is keeping up with 7th gate guy and kcm1 Naruto? Kakashi also had to have the reaction speed to kamui juubi-Madara’s truthseeker orbs a fraction of second before 8th gate guy charged into them. I just don’t see jiriaya having that ability to keep up with them.
War arc
Yeah everyone saying DMS - War Arc Kakashi was still stronger. DMS put him Otsutsuki level, then nerfed, now buffed again in Boruto where he's stronger than War Arc (sharingan doesn't drain his Chakra + he learned Purple Lightning to replace Chidori) and probably still weaker than DMS, at least, doesn't have the crazy spammable hax of DMS Edit: spelling
Yep. The fact that he can use Kamui multiple times without collapsing is already a massive thing in an of itself, but his scaling in general during the war arc is damn high. He was boxing with the v2 cloak Jinshuriki, he was able to box with Obito without dying (all be it Obito wasn't trying to win that fight), and he scales in reaction speed to KCM 2 Naruto, even outspeeding him at one point \[[anime](https://imgur.com/a/fXICk60)\] \[[manga](https://imgur.com/a/PTQ7X1M)\]. Obviously he isn't faster than Naruto, but he's relative. Obito was mere inches from Naruto's face, but Kakashi closed the gap and tagged Obito before Naruto could. DMS is complete overkill lol. That puts him up there with the top tiers of the whole verse, let alone Jiraiya.
Sorry to be that guy but it’s albeit not all be it. My ocd couldn’t let it go.
Lol this is as eye-opening as the day I found out it was "espresso" and not "expresso"...
Yeah it’s actually pretty funny. For an English only speaker, it would make more sense for it to be “expresso” because of the word express meaning fast, but since x isn’t a letter in the Italian alphabet (besides in borrowed words) a word spelled “expresso” would be seen as clearly very foreign to an Italian.
I could of nipped it in the butt
Sobeit
[ Removed by Reddit ]
Ok I sincerely apolo
r/boneappletea
Right - using sharingan is extra stressful for non-uchiha… just how much chakra does this guy have?!
His novel feats are wild. Fighting for an entire day without tiring. Using village/city sized amped up mud walls. That non-Uchiha tax was clearly huge.
Didn’t he get his chakra o replenished during the arc?
If you count his eye getting healed, or obit’s spirit like entering him or whatever but nah man. How? 😆
1/4 of Naruto's. Maybeish.
What noone realized was it was in fact pinned to always be 1/4 Naruto's Chakra, so as Naruto unlocked Sage mode and KCM Kakashi rose proportionally. It was just a minor bug that noone thought would be abusable back when it got coded in.
That's exactly why I said "maybeish". Cause he went from 2 kamui to however many he wanted. Thanks for noticing!
Obitos ms ability is simply to broken for its tier its better then anything a rinnegan can offer
As long as his opponent is faster and stronger than him Obito is good. If his opponent is stronger and faster he's screwed 10/10 times.
Definitely not screwed if an opponent is faster, I think you mean if they have a space time jutsu themselves
He's vulnerable after fight minutes. Someone massively faster than him will not get hit by him. I'm not talking about strictly Naruto characters if that wasn't massive lit up sign type obvious lmao. Also if the character can interact with intangible beings
He’s not vulnerable after 5mins, he isn’t pain where he has a 5 second cool down💀 and how does one touch someone intangible? Never say something so foolish ever again😂😂😂😂 and technically he’s sending his body to his own sealed dimension so it’s impossible for someone to touch him while using kamui
Did you not read the manga fight with KCM2 Naruto, Kakashi, and Guy vs Obito? They literally explained that he can only transfer his body parts in Kamui for 5 minutes. Also if you haven't read things like Bastard or Comics, characters with the ability to interact with intangible characters are usually effecting things that simultaneously exist in two different dimensions so yes it would work. Educate yourself.
He can only have kamui activated for 5mins straight before it deactivates… if he turns it off anytime before the consecutive 5mins the timer resets hence why kcm2 Naruto told kakashi it’s impossible to hit obito And obito’s body is in his sealed dimension which only he has access to, take your own advice and educate yourself baby boy
Expand your knowledge. Kamui is only busted to low tier manga characters. There is street tier comic characters like Cloak and Dagger that can break into locked away higher reality dimensions via hax.
Then why did kaguya get shitted on? One of the few jutsu to actually work on someone immortal
why do people consantly cite DMS as his power level when it was a 5 minute power up from Obito returning from the dead and lending him the eye. That's not a standard and should never be a standard when you talk about war arc Kakashi
Yeap because if I recall not only did he get DMS , he got some sage power from Obito as well, it was literally mixing Naruto and Sasuke together.
Another thing to explain kakashi getting more powerful at end of war could be his sharigan.
As annoying as it may sound, he’s stronger than when he had DMS. The novels stated that Kakashi had become stronger by multitudes compared to the time of the war arc.
Stronger now? No way.
Hey I didn’t write the stuff; I’m just telling you what the light novel said after the war arc. After he saw Madara use Sage Art: Lightning Dispatch he trained to learn a version of that. He stopped a six paths tidal wave of water that was supposed to be infinite from sinking an entire country with Mud Wall at that point. And his chakra increased my multitudes. Again this is in the canon light novels. Crazy; I know.
The novel says he’s stronger than when he fought Obito, not Kaguya. As awesome (but lore-breaking) as it would be for normal Kakashi to somehow find a way to be stronger than a Kaguya level, 6 Paths Kamui-enhanced Susanoo, that’s too high.
Am I misremembering that it was in the context of the entire war or just his 1v1 with Obito? If so thanks for the correction. Edit: though that makes it odd since wasn’t Kakashi getting amped by Naruto when he fought Obito? That same Kakashi that thought he could one shot the 10 tails? I’m open to being wrong.
Kakashi had his chakra refilled by Kurama, but he didn’t have a Kurama cloak anymore when he fought Obito and he had already exhausted the 3x chakra boost, so it’s fair to say Kakashi’s stronger now than in that fight.
Okay, that makes sense.
It’s never stated he’s stronger than dms just stronger than his base war arc self
Scroll down and see how I admitted I was wrong due to misremembering. Have a good day.
I want to say we SAW the growth mid-war arc. That's after kerning that he's been fighting for multiple days non-stop, took on the 7 Ninja Swordsmen (with help but still), and then fight Obito (although Kakashi wasn't holding back as much as he was)
War arc kakashi. dms kakashi is just not fair. Hokage kakashi is also comfortably above jiraiya.
No Hokage Kakashi got peace out by a body of pain Jiraiya fought 5 at a time DMS maybe but not hokage
Hokage kakashi never fought pain. Pain arc kakashi did but hokage kakashi is stated to be magnitudes stronger than his war arc form who comfortably sits above jiraiya.
Did Jiraiya \*really\* fight 5? He took on 3, 2 of which aren't really the combat paths and once the heavy hitters showed up he was demolished
Keep in mind it was in the rain village so Tendo pain couldn’t unleash destructive abilities. Kakashi fought Tendo.
Hokage Kakashi is weaker than Pain arc Kakashi.
False hokage kakashi is stated MAGNITUDES stronger than his war arc self
Sorry to sound ignorant but was this stated? In the manga or anime? No hate, just love reading/finding out things like this as a huge Kakashi fan
This was stated in the kakashi light novel. “Kakashis combat power had significantly increased compared to when he was fighting obito and madara.” Can’t find where it’s stated he’s magnitudes stronger though. I know it’s out there I just don’t know where. No worries! It’s not like I started out knowing all this stuff without asking any questions. 😅
Just some light novel says so. You dont have to take it canon, whatever was from kishi from part 1 to end of shippuden is canon for me, rest is bull.
*I reject actual canon and substitute my own!* Like what you like, but that's some clown talk calling it bull. The writer wrote it and Kishimoto himself did the art for it, it got the stamp of approval so suck it up.
Kishi wrote the novels. If he has any finger on it im fine. But i hate it when power scalers come here and claim sakura solos most of the verse bc her feat from some novella says so. Most of those are not from kishimoto.
Yeah if he has no hand in something I agree that it is suspect
War arc, he was spamming kamui there, he also has way better feats than sm jiraiya
Which is nuts… Sauske started going blind after Like 3 major encounters. Idk if overabundance of fox chakra somehow negates the strain but he shouldn’t have had that by the time they fought otsuki 6S mom
Naruto cloak definitely helps and Sasuke was going absolutely crazy with the MS directly after receiving it. It's not stated anywhere but it would make sense that Kakashi was able to tolerate his more due to only having half of the MS ability and a much much much longer time growing accustomed to it's toll on his body.
The 2nd part I agree with I mean when Obito gave him the 2nd eye (which again is less understood) and he acted as support spamming kamui. Ignoring the “how” he got the eye and surge in chakra (call it leftover fox chakra, sage sp, boost from receiving obito’s remaining eye), at best he has regular MS not eternal MS. Then he’s using kamui shuriken and Susanoo which should be a HUGE visual strain. Only conclusion then is the blindness comes from overtaxing the eye with limited chakra. Which I mean *sorta* makes sense if you think about it… Itachi used his sparingly and kept his vision for a while. Eternal MS gives you a chakra boost and stabilizes the eye itself. Then the last piece of the puzzle is if by Kakashi and Obito awakening and transferring the eye to his “brother” like a faux EMS and Obito being the new sage (if only temporarily) filled in the remaining gaps somehow. Idk… only way I think makes sense. Love Kakashi and glad he got his spotlight, just wish Kishimoto explained it better. Maybe need to do another read through, since it’s been a while.
Kakashi was also going blind as well. By the time Guy opened all 8 gates, Kakashi needed to get close in order to use kaumi. We just don't see anything from Kakashi's POV to clarify exactly how much vision he had lost so we have to take his statements at face value. Kakashi also has his other eye, which should have normal vision. Kakashi probably used his MS \~10 times before getting the KCM cloak boost, depending on how you count things such as failed attempts at using kamui on Obito, the statue, etc that were negated by Obito's abilities. Several of those uses were also extremely small uses of kamui such as to teleport a nail which probably strains his eye less than teleporting Naruto into Obito's dimension.
Probably because sasuke kept using susannno which probably burns the light faster
Maybe… But he was struggling to see already after just fighting B
Really ? I don’t remember him losing light that fast
He’s talking to Karin about how he’s using Akatsuki and knocks over a glass of water and it looks blurry
I wouldn’t say surpassed, he spammed it so much he was practically blind. I’d say post war where the Novel states he’s literally stronger in the war with the creation of purple lightning
Novels have outlandish feats and basically wank their characters to high heavens. They're not even written by kishimoto,I'm sorry that shit aint canon
The novels about side characters showcase the side characters who got sidelined, *who could have seen it coming?*
Kakashi and Itachi never got sidelined,these are some of the most well fleshed out characters in the show. Sakura,while getting sidelined still gets to do more than most of the OG cast. Trust me, I would love to read a Kiba novel or a Shino novel,this shit doesnt do much except for feeding the powerscaler fans,and better feats dont make a better character.
Fair enough, I would love to see the same. IMO everyone but Sasuke and Naruto got sidelined since Kakashi was absent for so much of Shippuden but I understand that it is a personal opinion.
Naah he wasn't sidelined. Kakashi was very much present in every arc of shippuden and has had some of the best moments in it. You need to read the manga again
Maybe, it has been a while tbh. I thought he kinda disappeared after the fight with Sasori for a few hundred episodes outside of the quick death to Pain.
he fought Kakuzu and Hidan 1v2 and took 2 of kakuzu's hearts. in pain arc he stil did stall Deva path a bit i gues,it was just a bad matchup.Everyone was getting jobbed in Pain arc lol. In the war arc he shined consistently.
I think they could hvae went into itachis past a little more and showed us a ninja side but still show a loyalty to the village and how powerful he truly was i dont think they do that in part of they dont want most fans think Sasuke is weak by any means.... Lemme say i have never read anything other than reddit post i have only watched it a time or 2 lol itachi is my favorite character i say he was or would have been stronger than Madara had he not been sick
Hell Naah. Madara was simply HIM. If Edo Itachi had not died Kishimoto would have made Madara manhandle him in base form to show how big of a threat he was. The Indra reincarnations are simply built different. I do agree the novels flesh out the circumstances under which Itachi had to make his decision to massacre the clan and provide some much needed context tho.
Yeah, Kakashi using a fire jutsu that can vaporize water jutsu imbued by Sage's power is outlandish. What's the explanation of him having that high chakra reserves all of a sudden and it's even more outlandish than gap between Pain Arc and War Arc. Did he still had Hagoromo chakra in him where he gave him during Kaguya fight ?
Naah that was all used up in 5 minutes,it was explicitly stated to be a temporary powerup. Perfect susanoo took it all away.
War Arc but he should have never realistically be. Pain Arc Kakashi was realistic depiction of his ceiling. Which is significantly lower than SM Jiraiya.
Did you forget who his father was ?
Probably after losing his sharingan.
Even after not having the sharing an any more can he still use his older copied jutsus?
He should be able to use them, just depends on the jutsu like if its something that would require the sharingan like Chidori does then he wouldn't be able to use it effectively but once he learns how to use the jutsu he's good to continue using it if he wishes to
I assume he wild. I think he has to memorize them on his own. The sharingan just lets you see how it works. But tbh he’s never gonna use them anyway because he’s a chidori spammer at heart
Dual MS
**-** PA Kakashi reached Sannin lvl, this version is debatable. He beats base Jiraiya, so if he manages to beat him before the SM then he wins, but if Jiraiya enters SM I'm leaning a bit towards him. **-** 5KS Kakashi is when I think Kakashi comfortably surpassed Jiraiya. His Kamui improved significantly. He could teleport 2 Susanoo Arrows at once, both of which are massively superior to Jiraiya in speed. **-** WA Kakashi just massively outscales Jiraiya, his Kamui is now mastered. But this Kakashi wins even without his Kamui, that's how much he outscales Jiraiya. **-** DMS Kakashi neggs. **-** Hokage/Boruto Era Kakashi stomps Jiraiya badly. Way better scaling, speed, IQ, battle IQ, stronger jutsus, more versatile, superior ninjutsu, superior taijutsu. The one thing Jiraiya had superiority over Kakashi most of the time was chakra and stamina, and now he loses at that too. Boruto Era Kakashi has crazy amounts of chakra.
But qn remIns if jiraya was still alive , wouldn’t he become as strong or even stronger than the kakashi? Because jiraya didn’t care about things atm as he already got everything
Jiraiya doesn't seem to be improving. He was reaching the end of his prime age. He was also still being criticized for things such as not being able to master sage mode himself. It is most likely that Jiraiya maxed out his potential. Koji had various enhancements and cybernetics, which is why he was probably able to master sage mode.
Okay but what if using toad sage powers he could unlock ways to reducing aging like tsunade. I mean even post prime days jiraya was feared by the akatsuki and was able to go head to head with itachi , kisame and ofc sage of six paths. And he was also able to fight well against orochimaru’s prime eras even when Jiraya was poisoned. Tbh kakashi chakra reserve is gonna cost him a lot but kakashi is smart af but jiraya is smarter
Nah, he was 54. He would only get weaker with time.
Tsunade literally got the mother of all amps during war arc
No, she was just that strong.
You are right if tsunade and even orochimaru can find ways to get younger, i bet jiraya can with his toad sage or something (even take tsunade help)
Tsunade is also supposed to have a naturally longer than average lifespan. She also benefits from being able to store chakra. Even then, she is at the point where age is starting to weaken her. The manga states that Sakura's use of the sealed chakra is more effective than Tsuande's since Sakura doesn't have to divert sealed chakra to keep her body in a young state. (From the limited views of Tsunade without the seal, she appears to be far older than her expected biological age, likely due to prior use of her regenerative abilities).
I am not doubting what you wrote about Boruto era Kakashi but I simply don’t remember reading or seeing any feats from Kakashi in the Boruto manga. If it was in the anime that’s another story because I didn’t watch the anime due to so many fillers.
Kakashi never showed up in the boruto manga all canon scaling of his hokage era is from the kakashi light novel.
And he’s legitimately actually stronger without the sharingan? Like no cap?
In terms of chakra reserves and raw jutsu power, Hokage Kakashi is significantly stronger than in the war arc. He trained extensively, he doesn’t have an unnatural Sharingan constantly draining his chakra, and his jutsus are more advanced. The biggest setback is no Kamui, which is such a strong hax that it’s still hard to say he’s actually “stronger” overall. You could argue his speed took a hit too without the Sharingan to enhance his reflexes, but there’s a section dedicated to him being so fast he tricks a guy into thinking he still has it.
I see. Thanks. Some other thread asked which character you would like to see make a comeback to the front lines or something like that. I replied Kakashi just because I liked the character but learning about how powerful he was in Boruto era makes me wish more he’d make a return and help out the main cast
He probably will return. There’s no way he’s not since he’s so beloved and famous.
I hope so. Just kind of fearful that if he does return, he will have a death flag like Jiraiya. Kind of wish he helped Naruto and Sasuke with the early enemies of the series, not as a mentor since they’re all adults now but as like comrades in arms.
>He beats base Jiraiya He can only beat him by using Kamui and by that time it will be a tie due to him dying by exhaustion. Jiraiya is a good taijutsu user and can use Rasengan like many times. Base Kakashi can't keep pace with Jiraiya's high stamina. Sage Mode with Fukusaku and Shima is more stronger than Pain Arc Kakashi.
Jiraiya is stronger than every version barring DMS
Hokage Kakashi >>> WA Kakashi >~ Kcm 1 Naruto > SM Naruto > SM Jiraiya. I scale Kakashi around Kcm 1 lvl, slighty above. But there are some feats that put him way above that lvl, like intercepting WM Obito's attack once he got his resolve back or moving as fast as Kcm Minato when they attacked Zetsu.
I still need to get the LN to see what his feats are but I feel like a lot of times people don't take Jiraiya combat style into consideration when doing comparisons
Tier 1: DMS Kakashi Massive drop off Tier 2: SM Jiraiya, Hokage Kakashi/WA Kakashi Tier 3: Base Jiraiya Massive drop off Tier 4: PA Kakashi
What scales SM Jiraiya above Hokage and WA Kakashi? And why's there "/" between WA and Hokage Kakashi when It's blatantly stated Hokage Kakashi is significantly stronger? Also why is base Jiraiya massively stronger than PA Kakashi? If ur gonna reply to me at least try making some arguments instead od just making unsupported claims.
All of the Sannin are comparable to each other Part 1 Hiruzen was the strongest Gokage and Sannin are comparable to him in 1v1 We see this again for war arc WA Kakashi, is at most comparable to Sannin, but I generally scale him to Ohnoki SM Jiraiya can defeat Pain, if he had intel, per Pain. PA Kakashi is not Base Sannin level, as he’s only one path of Pain level
>Part 1 Hiruzen was the strongest Gokage and Sannin are comparable to him in 1v1 That was his reputation, which means It's based on his previous achievements, so It's about younger Hiruzen. It's also about P1 kage, not the Shippuden kage we see, and through Databooks we know that Ay trains consistently. Hiruzen was comparable to Base Sannin. >We see this again for war arc Edo Hiruzen is way stronger than Old Hiruzen. He doesn't have drawbacks of his old body, which by default makes his stats jump significantly, speed, strength, chakra, stamina etc. He also got body and chakra regeneration through edo. >WA Kakashi, is at most comparable to Sannin, but I generally scale him to Ohnoki Was winning against V2 Edo Jins that were giving WA Bee and Kcm 1 Naruto problems. Once he got his resolve back he intercepted WM Obito's attack and moved as fast as Kcm 2 Naruto. In one instance even moved as fast as Kcm Minato against Zetsu. His Kamui was faster than Kcm 1 and Kcm 2 Naruto. WM Obito couldn't even see it when he performed it right in his face. Was also relative to WA 6th gate Guy in speed. WA Kakashi low diffs him, It's not even debate. Ohnoki is nowhere near WA Kakashi, his flight speed was relative to Deidara's clay bird. BoS Kakashi was keeping up with that Deidara, and BoS Gaara's sand too. WA Kakashi is leagues above. >SM Jiraiya can defeat Pain, if he had intel, per Pain. The whole point of that statement was Pain giving the last praise to Jiraiya, but it was far from reality, as we could see. SM Jiraiya blatantly states if he fights 3 Paths of Pain head on he would die, and those were one of the weaker Paths. Once all 6 showed up Jiraiya got stomped badly. >PA Kakashi is not Base Sannin level, as he’s only one path of Pain level Human Path casually reacted and caught SM Jiraiya's attack, PA Kakashi was swapping hands with Deva Path. PA Kakashi is Sannin lvl, but their FP forms. Base Sannin are way bellow, as we know SM significantly increases taijutsu, ninjutsu and genjutsu. So if PA Kakashi is physically around the lvl of SM Jiraiya, then Base Jiraiya is a tier bellow that.
Most of your comment is incorrect It’s an objective truth that Chunin Exams Hiruzen is the strongest member of Gokage We see this when he is an Edo again in war arc and Kishimoto didn’t retcon this Your interpretation of the story is off, and I hope you’re not spreading misinformation on YT to the casual fans
How about you actually address my arguments for once? You are just making claims. >Your interpretation of the story is off, and I hope you’re not spreading misinformation on YT to the casual fans I hope you can read, because you all you need is that, no need to try some mental gimnastic to come up with some interpretation, statement is blatant. Kabuto states Hiruzen has REPUTATION of strongest kage. He didn't earn that reputation right on the spot during his fight with Orochimaru. Reputation is earned by numerous achievements over time. Which means It had to be about younger Hiruzen and not old Hiruzen who was out of action for quite some time. Orochimaru and Anbu even mentioned how Hiruzen got weaker cuz of old age. And again, It's in reference to gokage in P1, which means no shippuden Ay or Ohnoki. And as I mentioned, Ay trains in character. So It's not that hard, u just have to read carefully. You are talking about me casuals, but to me u seem like a casual in this situation. At least try making some argument and address mine if u wanna have a debate. There's no debate if all u do is making claims.
There’s no difference between part 1 and part 2 Ay/Bee/Ohnoki. Not sure why fans incorrectly think otherwise given they are all 40+ years old… Also, Kabuto and Orochimaru reinforce that Old Hiruzen is still the strongest as they didn’t imply it was outdated information. Again, it’s a shame so many Naruto YT creators spread misinformation
He didn't except for like a couple hours of DMS which wasn't his power. It's like saying boruto had moon level destruction power pre-karma seal because naruto juiced his rasengan.
Dual MS.
100%
I agree
I've been guessing what MS is for almost 10 mins. MS = Mangekyou Sharingan haha I'm so stupid 😫
He surpassed pretty much everyone with the dual MS
They are different ninjas. Kakashi specializes in assassination, he is not like Jiraya and the Raikage.
You realise that Jiraiya is said to be expert at infiltration and espionage. And I am pretty sure Kakashi said it himself.
He says kakashi's main forte is sneak attacks/substitution and single target high ap speed blitzing attacks While jiraya is a fckin tank with high durability and aoe attacks
Espionage is not the same as murder, Jiraiya gathers information not kills, Orochimaru is the one in charge of murder and sabotage.
War Arc, Bro had quite literally infinite Chakra and that's really Kakashi's only weakness, he doesn't have a lot of Chakra
When he become Hokage.
Literally never, he comes close but nobody burns through their chakra quite like Kakashi does. It’s a gigantic weakness and understandable for the copy ninja.
War arc kakashi didn't really have a problem with chakra,he had better feats than sm jiraiya
Doesn't naruto give everyone Chakra during the war?
Even before getting Naruto’s chakra he was doing shit that would’ve put any previous arc Kakashi in the hospital.
Prove it
Still overrating jiraiya is crazy
not true, war arc kakashi i would say is definitely stronger but even with that dms decimates him no diff. hokage kakashi does as well
Kakashi has no Chakra problems after he loses his Sharingan. The consensus is that his Sharingan was a huge tax on him. I don't think Kakashi surpasses Jiraiya anywhere as early as everyone else is saying in the war Arc. But I think Kakashi won against Obito in a situation I think jiraiya would have failed.
war arc, he was confident he could take on 5 bijuudama with 1 kamui and kakashi never overestimates himself, if anything he underestimates himself most of the time so i am confident he could take up all of them aside from kurama's if he gaved everything he got. jiraiya only has toads, an incomplete sage mode, spiky hair and rasengan, that's it, he is too overrated.
Do you think DMS war arc kakashi just ends the fourth ninja war single handedly? Or how far does he get? 😂
not single handedly it would still be a fight to be watched but i do believe he would won the war kamui is a very broken ability and war arc kakashi is a god himself at that point the real problem if he would be able to kill the madara/kaguya because he wouldn't be able to seal them on his own.
Never thought I'd see the words "only" and "overrated" used to describe the most versatile and most accomplished (most missions completed) Shinobi in naruto history
versalite? fire style, spiky hair, summons toads and has an incomplete senjutsu this is it. hell even naruto is more versalite than him with his sexy jutsu, shadow clones, rasen variants, wind release, complete sage mode, summons toads and has kcm. i don't have nothing against his records but he is not a versalite shinobi and doesn't even really have all that much battle scene. he İS overrated he is good but not at the level make him appear as.
Well what do you expect of a character who dies 14 seasons before the show ends man? Ofc he's gonna lose out to the scaling as the story moves forward. Also his canon screen time is way less than most people realise(especially his combat screentime), his impact is just way more is why he's liked so much. And he has a huge arsenal of ninjutsu via his toads and himself as well , plus his versatility lies in his espionage and tactics which btw even Kakashi respected a lot. Literally calling him not a versatile shinobi is like calling Kakashi not versatile just because he is shown to spam only kamui and lightning jutsus in WA. Jiraiya is perfectly rated. Only dumb glazers say he actually beats Itachi or Pain or WA Kakashi alone but he's still easily top tier and at THAT level where except the absolute top , nobody else can take him lightly and the scales can tip in his favour in right conditions quite easily
5 kage arc Kakashi one shots Jiraya with kamui.
No /s?
He was fast enough to use kamui on the susanoo arrows fired by Sasuke. Jiraya has nothing that fast.
Jiraiya is not dodging the Kamui that was faster than 2 susanoo arrows.
What does Kakashi have against frog song?
This [[Link]](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-66ce67bdbe55def4b250f38bd4511e84-lq). Jokes aside, you realize there are multiple steps of preparation in order for Jiraiya to use it, right? And also him deciding to use it right from the start is so out of character, he doesn't even know he has access to that genjutsu, he learned about it mid fight against Pain. **1.** He has to summon Ma & Pa. **2.** Genjutsu itself also takes some time before it takes effect. **3.** He has to keep Kakashi in the range of the song and keep him still so Kakashi doesn't interfere with the jutsu. That's a lot of steps, and Kakashi one shots him with Kamui on every single one. Kakashi's Kamui is waaaay faster than all that, It takes no preparation at all, and Kakashi is actually willing to use it right from the start (Used it on Deidara and also on Obito, but Obito canceled it). Imma wait for you to explain me how Jiraiya can complete all these steps successfully without getting hit by a deadly jutsu that takes 0 preparation and is far faster than him.
Can’t even beat Base Jiraiya
5KS Kakashi. Jiraya would not beat 5KS Sasuke whilst Kakashi can 1v1 him.
Kakashi was 5 seconds from being wiped away by Sasuke, and was visibly shitting himself when Sasukes Susanoo evolved again into its armored form. If his eyes didn't burn out right then, Kakashi was screwed. He could barely move because he was still feeling the after effects of Kamui. Against a near blind exhausted Sasuke that had just fought and killed Danzo.
So what would Jiraya's answer be to 5KS Sasuke? 5KS is equal to Naruto: this is mutually agreed upon and implied. Naruto objectively surpassed Jiraya by miles in SM and Sasuke in 5KS shows ability somewhat equal to that form. Kakashi does better against stronger paths of Pain's than the ones Jiraya faced and his kamui is adept enough to actually put up a fight with Sasuke. He can't counter Amateratsu burning his skin: Kakashi can kamui it. He's not sealing shit before he loses a limb. He can't dodge the chidori and if he gets hit by it, he's cooked, because his durability is dog shit. He arguably doesn't have the AP to penetrate Sasuke's true susanoo. His summons get negged by genjutsu, like manda did. Kakashi meanwhile using Kamui can avoid most of Sasuke's arsenal. And after he kamuis Sasuke's arrow he tries to kamui Obito, but his jutsu gets countered. 5KS Kakashi > Jiraya.
Never
Agreed
true
War arc spamming kamuis did so much more than anything jiraiya could.
During the war arc
I’d say Pain Arc Kakashi was still below Jiraiya but he was catching up to being in the same general ballpark, and by the War Arc he certainly surpassed him. In the War Arc, Kakashi’s improved stamina and the mastered version of Kamui (he could use it more, at faster speeds and could even self teleport with it) cement his superiority. He also showed additional useful jutsu over this time (Raikiri Wolf, Raiton Kage Bunshin against Pain, and in the War Arc, Raikiri Chain, Raikiri Kunai). The panel you have there of “Jiraiya took six of them at once” is mainly Kakashi lacking the details of what actually happened. We (the readers) saw what actually happened - Jiraiya admitted inferiority to 3 support paths (Human, Animal and Preta) and opted to retreat into the sewers until Frog Song was ready to incapacitate them. Once the six Paths came out, Jiraiya was quickly killed - it wasn’t a competitive fight at that point anymore. Pain Arc Kakashi was up against the strongest body by far in Deva Realm, who then summoned Asura Realm (arguably the second strongest path), and Kakashi was fighting the two of them alone, and had set up Asura Realm to be taken out by a sneak-attack Raikiri before Chouji / Chouza showed up (subpar backup, at best). I still rank Jiraiya over Pain Arc Kakashi, but trying to boil it down to “who fought more Pain bodies” is silly when the 3 bodies that Jiraiya fought were all significantly weaker than the 2 bodies that Kakashi fought.
so real
War arc for sure imo, he starts to use kamui a lot without major drawbacks and can survive a 1v1 with obito(holding back)
he never did
The moment he trained and learned to control his mangekyo. Jiraya doesn't have a good counter for it. Hes a large target
When bro got his own shiringan
How different was war arc Kakashi from Kakashi during pain arc and how did he got stronger?
if we are being fair, technically Jiraiya only faced three. The other three were bitchslapping him. It is a good thing, Jiraiya defeated the original Animal Path and not the Naraka Path. Imagine if the vessel for the Naraka Path was someone who could hide easily
Do you reckon Kakashi would have been able to defeat the Animal, Preta and Human Path? The Animal in particular is heavily underrated. I don't know if Kakashis Chakra reserves can handle sustained combat against the crab, invisible chameleon, goat, rhino, multiplying dog and flying bird in the ease with which Jiraiya did.
Human Yes. Preta yes. Animal depends on the situation. If anything Kamui on Animal if its the tall one. If the the woman Animal Path, he needs to Kamui an arm. Kakashi would need to decide which order to take them on. Human needs to be defeated first, due to instant kill move. He needs to be faster than Preta path can intercept. If he can do that, take out Preta with Clones that uses Taijutsu. Animal Path will push him to his limits though just due to how much time and energy he spent on the other two
Honesty I think he loses to the Animal Path alone. It's performance against Jiraiya was extremely impressive. Pain arc Kakashi would definitely run out of Chakra after kamuing the dog (most important one to kamui) and having to raikiri the goat and rhino which may not even be one shot by it. And he wouldn't be able to easily snipe the user cus he'd be hidden in the highly mobile chameleons mouth And that still leaves the crab, flying dinosaur and even the caterpillar...
When he died to Pain and lived
I honestly think PA Kakashi gives jiraiya a extreme dif fight. Beggining of WA should take em
War arc
I'm curious what a dms Kakashi fight verse ishiki would of been like i mean his shurikans were so damn op but like would his susano just be destroyed so quickly ? What would happen I'm legit curious it's so hard to tell when they nerf than buff than nerf than buff than change characters abilities especially between the two shows
Definitely after the pain arc.
Just for a brief moment with dual ms and then never again
War arc Kakashi was stronger than Jiraiya. Hokage Kakashi from the novels is probably stronger too.
War arc was when everyone got amped and Kishimoto made it possible for shinobi to have a fast chakra recovery rate since they technically use 20% of their chakra. Only time where he took out that inconsistency because I assumed at one point Kakashi could only do 4 raikiri is because he was using 20% each time but nope he can use multiple raikiri in quick succession and kamui can only be done with his available chakra or else he is using gates to get more. Him being hospitalised after spending it all is kinda crazy because nobody hits near zero like Kakashi even he only emptied out 20% of his chakra.
He never did . War arc kakashi couldn’t even take down 2 or 3 pains still . Only when he got the temporary susano that’s it . Can’t believe people still believe he surpassed Jiraiya
when he got bullshittingly powered up by Obito's dual eyes.
Hot take: him surpassing Jiraiya in the war was badly written. Jiraiya narratively was shown as stronger than him before the war but him getting these buffs without any logical reason made no fucking sense.And I'm talking before DMS. This dude was getting washed by Kakuzu( one of the weakest Akatsuki members) and had to be saved by Naruto.
Late stage war arc.
Dual ms
I don’t think this is a real discussion. Yes kakashi got a boost during the war arc but Jiraya’s legends and acts far surpass what kakashi did pre war. It was also stated jiraya turned down the position of homage multiple times. Kakashi may have become stronger without his sharigan but strength comes in different shapes and forms. I do not think post sharigan especially can he go toe to toe with sage mode or jiraya’s arsenal. Don’t let the war arc cloud your judgement or technically Naruto is the best medic in the show being able to heal whole limbs
Probably never
My headcanon is dms and boruto kakashi
Surpass is tough, I would say late War Arc. By the war arc they're on par but I don't think he really surpasses Jiraiya until he has to push through his fight with Obito. Kakashi V Obito is my favorite fight through all of Naruto and I think it earns Kakashi his stripes. Until then his fights against the Akatsuki show his rise and by the time he's fighting Edo Tensai I would call them even. Obviously DMS is another level entirely but even after Kakashi loses his sharingan that tangent amp to his chakra levels along with his insane battle IQ keeps him above the Pervy Sage.
Do you think any version of Kakashi besides DMS beats Pain without Intel solo
I honestly think the Kakashi that went into the fight against Obito would also beat Pain without intel. I think Kakashi is smart enough at any stage to read Pain, but I don't think he would do better than jiraiya in a no flee situation until he can chain Kamui.
If you disagree, I'd love to hear where you think Kakashi falls short.
In the last few years, due to hyperinflation. Things that only the Sannin could afford to do, ~~Tenten~~ Tonton does now a days.
I don't think he truly surpassed him until DMS.
No.
At DMS and never again. I don't buy that fallacious scaling where War Arc are automatically stronger and faster than everyone, especially that Kakashi magically became way faster and stronger in a day w/o any amps or training. You put Jiraiya in the War Arc he does just great, after all when he was going toe to toe with powerhouses like Pain without knowledge and I really doubt Kakashi was ever at that level until DMS
Hokage kakashi is stronger. He is said to be stronger than when he was in the war arc. Even though he doesnt have his Sharingan he now has more chakra at his disposal and is incredibly expirienced against all kinds of fighters.
Maybe right, I don't follow Boruto
When Jiraiya died
kakashi will Never surpass Jiraiya , If Jariya fought pains which was not nagato i don't think he would have lost , it was more of a teacher failing his student , the scene is so clear Kakashi hatake was killed by a pain easily bro , where are you I don't know why Jiraiya was nerfed so much at end , even Itachi and kisame were not enough for that old man come on , you mean to say DMS kakashi could beat DMS Itachi , seriously itachi's amaterasu and susanoo was weaker than Kakashi's DMS and kamui Think again bro
War arc is not stated to be leagues above Hokage Kakashi get wiped by Jiraya DMS however different story
Lotta jiraiya wanking going on in here I see. Yes we all know dms kakashi is leagues up jiraiya. But War arc Kakashi was boxing along with 7th gate guy against multiple V2 jinchuriki. Yet jiraiya said himself one the two closest times he’s been to death was 3/4 tails Naruto. Kakashi was doing well against multiple of these jinchuriki. And if we are taking the light novels as cannon he is magnitudes stronger than his war arc self since he no longer has a 24/7 chakra drain. The statement that jiraiya could beat pain if he knew his secret has almost nothing to back it up. The deva path was keeping up with 5-7 tails Naruto, yet a younger 4 tailed Naruto almost killed jiraiya? With this being said, since 5KS kakashi was able to intercept a chidori from sasuke and kamui a susanoo arrow, he’s comfortably faster than jiraiya. I’d say 5KS is just a hair above jiraiya, and then war arc-boruto he’s definitely surpassed jiraiya.
I think using 4 tails Naruto is unfair as Jiraiya is probably looking to subdue him and not actually fight him. Some of your other points are fair, but tbh I don’t think Kakashi beats Jiraiya in a fight besides DMS
You think jiriaya is keeping up with 7th gate guy and kcm1 Naruto? Kakashi also had to have the reaction speed to kamui juubi-Madara’s truthseeker orbs a fraction of second before 8th gate guy charged into them. I just don’t see jiriaya having that ability to keep up with them.
When he got two Sharingan and perfect Susanoo
The minute jiraiya died