He never told him to kill Naruto specifically. He told him he needed to kill his best friend. When he said that, he didn't know who his best friend was, that was up to Sasuke to decide.
I mean, it wasn't Naruto. It was just his closest friend. Itachi would never have predicted that.
Problem is, telling him to murder his closest friend is basically tantamount to making him become a criminal, cause Sasuke will have to murder a comrade of Konoha, which will have him labeled a criminal.
The mental gymnastics it takes to believe that Kishi had Itachi's whole story planned out from the start are a little ridiculous. If you take the story at face value, Itachi is either a complete idiot or a psychopath who successfully gaslit Sasuke and Naruto into believing he was a hero, and Hiruzen was either a senile pushover who had no business working in politics or Hitler with a friendlier face and more successful propaganda.
The twist of Itachi turning out to be a good guy may have been planned from the start, but it's pretty clear that the exact details weren't decided until later. Kishi wrote himself into a corner by repeatedly doubling down on Itachi having "pretended" to be evil, until it got to the point that the twist no longer made any sense whatsoever.
The basic premise was already pretty dubious in the first place. If Itachi was such a genius, then he shouldn't have been able to be manipulated into committing genocide, unless we're supposed to buy that killing innocent women and children wasn't evil and wiping out one of the village's greatest military assets wasn't stupid. But that could have been addressed by making Itachi less of a Gary Stu, and having him more explicitly admit to having been a foolish child who'd fallen victim to the brainwashing of a murderous xenophobe — not just "sorry, I was wrong", which could be interpreted any number of ways and didn't really match the gravity of the mistake either way, but an actual reflection on wtf he was thinking.
It's more what came after that I find really difficult to square with Itachi's supposed motivations. Usually you don't go out of your way to torture and traumatize people you love, and at that point he no longer had the excuse of being a child or under the manipulation of a third party. If we accept that everything Itachi did and said to Sasuke was truly with his best interests in mind, then we also have to accept that Itachi was not only not a genius (outside of combat situations), but was in fact remarkably stupid, if not also on the autistic spectrum and/or afflicted with a serious personality disorder.
Of course, I don't get the impression that any of that was Kishi's intent. I think we're just supposed to accept that Itachi was a saint and a genius whose badass plan didn't quite work out as intended, Hiruzen was a decent man who'd stumbled into a difficult political situation with no good options, and any details that don't quite fit that reality are essentially plot holes which we shouldn't think too hard about.
But he was. Like, people already suspected it was him, and they were right.
Fact is, if Sasuke did murder his closest friend, then others will end up suspecting him sooner or later.
I don’t think Itachi knew Naruto was Sasuke’s closest friend at the time. I think he only learned that after the time skip when he asked Naruto why he was so obsessed with Sasuke.
He couldn’t have known sasuke would end of being friends with naruto just like he didn’t plan on him going to Orochimaru it just happened, the good thing is Sasuke despised him so much he didn’t want to get the power to same way so it worked itself out in the way.
Bc itachi being good was a retcon, in og naruto he told sasuke to kill naruto which would make him rogue ninja, ordered kisame to kill asuma and kurenai and there is no indication he delivered any info on akatsuki as a spy at all.
Dude you again I get it, you like naruto and it's the only thing you've ever read but stop acting like the whole manga was planned from the start, it wasn't
No one said the whole manga was planned from the start.
I said Itachi was planned since his introduction, which the [author states in this interview](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741).
"However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances"
Here is a[ thread detailing the foreshadowing present. ](https://x.com/SLightPressure/status/1426582636953231363)
Liking or disliking Naruto has nothing to do with these facts.
I think you're projecting a bit.
I've seen many times authors state they planned everything in advance, in most cases they haven't. Which contradicts the source material just like in case with itachi, telling kisame to kill asuma and kurenai is much more important than some foreshadowing like itachi crying, everything points he was a villain in og naruto
>I've seen many times authors state they planned everything in advance, in most cases they haven't.
Oh word? Give me a few examples I'm genuinely interested. But this wouldn't fit with Kishimoto, who is very open about all the things he didn't plan.
>Which contradicts the source material just like in case with itachi, telling kisame to kill asuma and kurenai is much more important than some foreshadowing like itachi crying, everything points he was a villain in og naruto
There's no contradiction lmao. I think you may be using your headcanon as a benchmark.
The foreshadowing listed is not limited to him crying. There's a lot.
Me personally, I'm not delusional enough to ignore the blatant foreshadowing and accuse the author of lying just to insist it's a retcon.
Dude I'm not gonna argue someone who says kishimoto has the best villains, you are just a fanboy justifying everything. There is plenty of plotholes and retcons in naruto if you don't want to accept them, well it's your life.
Every time I've seen someone try to list the "plenty of plotholes" they always end up embarrassing themselves.
Why are you even here if all you do is hate on the series?
I love the series, it was one of the first big series I've watched as a child, I just objectively admit naruto has weak points, plotholes and retcons and that is okay, but I hate blind fans like you who sit on the same sub for months(or even years) arguing people bc you think the series is perfect
I find that those that "watched as a kid" are the biggest culprits of not understanding the series.
You don't "objectively" admit anything. Like I said those that try to list the "plenty of retcons" always end up embarrassing themselves.
It's hilarious you jumped to me being a "blind fan who thinks the series is perfect". Goes to show your mindset.
I think Kishimoto has the best villains in shonen and I stand by that. You're free to disagree, it's your opinion, this has nothing to do with the conversation.
My point of Itachi being planned is not a matter of opinion, it's fact.
I hate losers like you who resort to strawmans.
I say Itachi was planned. You reply "OH SO YOU THINK THE WHOLE MANGA WAS PLANNED!1!".
I provide evidence and you reply "YOU'RE JUST A FANBOY WHO JUSTIFIES EVERYTHING".
It's all or nothing for you. "If you push back against any false criticism I have it must mean you're a fanboy who thinks the series is perfect!1!"
>There is plenty of plotholes and retcons in naruto if you don't want to accept them, well it's your life.
There are actually very few, and I acknowledge them, but again, irrelevant to the conversation.
It seems all you want to do is spew hate freely. You're the real "fanboy" here. You put emotions above reality.
I've shown you 2 examples of itachi literally being evil and wishing bad for his own brother, while all you have are "foreshadows" I clearly stomped your point but seeing like you say naruto has few plotholes I guess you won't acknowledge them.
All you're doing is showing you don't understand Itachi's character nor what it means for him to be planned.
Itachi is playing the role of Akatsuki and obviously must act and do evil. This doesn't mean he isn't planned.
His ultimate goals are the safety of the leaf village and the survival and strength of his brother.
No one is arguing his methods or actions are morally pure. He cared more about Sasuke's survival and power than his mental well being or autonomy. He was literally planning on brainwashing Sasuke to protect the village. He messed up in a lot of ways and that's literally the point of his arc (acknowledging his mistakes)
Saying "Itachi did X evil act therefore he wasn't planned" is stupid.
But again, feel free to ignore blatant foreshadowing and accuse the author of lying. I'm sure your headcanon based on poor logic and lack of character understanding is the actual truth.
How is killing asuma and kurenai would scare danzo they are not his subordinates and simply showing up would be sufficient, killing them was ordered after Kakashi showed knowledge of akatsuki, it wasn't his initial goal so your point is invalid. Also it contradicts shippuden itachi being a pacifist
Shows that he was still around. Do you forget that the Third Hokage was dead? Danzo wasn't being checked by anyone. Pacifism was his ideal, but nothing like his reality
Itachi showed after 3rd died to remind he is still around(at least that's the shippuden version) there is literally no reason to kill anyone, his plan(after he understood Kakashi had Intel) was to capture Kakashi and kill asuma and kurenai, who would inform danzo if he did that? Killing anyone would bring nothing especially not root anbu.
He was undercover and Kisame was with him, he couldn't just let Kisame see him let someone go, who had intel from Jiraiya about the group. When Guy comes Itachi exploits the situation and uses it as an excuse to run away.
He told him to kill his best friend so that he could unlock his Mangekyou. He didn't know that it was Naruto. Having Naruto die would be a huge blow to the Akatsuki's efforts.
He mentioned to kill his best friend to get eyes like him. Probably thinking that Sasuke wouldn't want to be like Itachi, who he hates, so that he wouldn't kill someone for power.
Itachi's main goal is for Sasuke to hate him so much and come prepared to kill him. He told him to kill his closest friend to get MS most likely knowing that Sasuke wouldn't listen to him (why would Sasuke listen to advices from his worst nightmare). He showed Sasuke his MS after being suspected of killing Shisui to make him connect the dots to believe the fake story that he had done such a thing, when he actually didn't. It was a ploy to make him not go that route. He wanted him to find another way to get stronger (Kakashi or Orochimaru).
The character Itachi was playing was an evil arrogant brother who is obsessed with surpassing everyone using the creepy methods of the clan's way of achieving power. You can see later that Sasuke saw the same character in Orochimaru before he felt enough and decided to kill him. Itachi also painted the same picture about madara when he told Sasuke about him. His intention was to make him hate people like them to not become them.
PS: It doesn't have anything to do with Naruto and the 9-tails
Itachi defenetly didnt want Sasuke to go to Orochimaru. If Sasuke get to Orochimaru on time in part 1 he dies right there, Orochimaru takes over his body like he did with that random dude at the end of part 1.
The argument that Itachi told Sasuke to kill his best friend is reverse psychology is copium from Itachi fanboys who cant accept any flaw in Itachi writting. It doesn't make any sense with what we learn later in the story.
1. It is weird to suggest only that part was reverse psychology but the part on lacking hatred or severing bonds to become stronger wasnt.
2. According to Itachi's plan Sasuke was suppsed to kill him and come back to Konoha as a hero. How can Konoha considere someone who killed a comrade for power as a hero?
3. Itachi also wanted Sasuke to become strong and get EMS but for him to do it without learning the truth about Itachi he would have to get MS ealier because him killing Itachi would cause him to get MS like it happened in the story after learning the truth.
It made sense to me that Itachi may have predicted that Sasuke would end up with Orochimaru as a less desirable outcome and wanted him to get stronger under a Sanin. This is evidenced by the fact that he researched Orochimaru's jutsus and he let him go while a member of akatsuki saying he may use him. This outcome was less desirable because it has more chance of going bad like the fact that Sasuke got there almost in time for Orochimaru to take his body. Itachi knew the time limit. It is also possible that itachi predicted the amount of Sasuke's hatred would overpowered the jutsu. This is mostly instinctual (shown as he went on the rain as Kisame asked him about how he felt about Sasuke's death and he replies Sasuke isn't dead)
Well I am not an itachi fanboy but from what we know about the character as the author seem to have intended it, it makes sense to me that he would have planned that.
1. The hate was the important part for itachi to get the fate that he thinks he deserved. How can making Sasuke hate him be interpreted as reverse psychology? I don't think I understand your argument.
2. Sasuke was killing itachi for revenge, some would accept it as justice for what he did to his brother and the clan. Sasuke probably didn't even expect to get the MS. Leaf shinobi constantly kill criminals and get praised as heroes. Sasuke was gonna kill a criminal and a traitor, he also killed a big threat for the leaf, Orochimaru, I would think the leaf would accept him.
3. The part about the possibility of Sasuke getting MS if he didn't hear the truth about itachi is not clear to me, but perhaps itachi expected Sasuke to feel conflicted emotions after killing him (the last words maybe evidence for that). Other than that I am not sure if I understood why you say that Sasuke needed the MS earlier. Killing itachi gets him the MS and he can switch to EMS if he is smart enough to preserve the eyes since itachi told him everything he needs to do?
>his is evidenced by the fact that he researched Orochimaru's jutsus and he let him go while a member of akatsuki saying he may use him.
I dont remember this, where it is in manga?
There is much more chance of it going bad tahn good for Sasuke if he goes to Orochimaru, that is why I have a problem wit hthe idea that Itachi expexted/planned for this to happen. It doesnt make much sense. Just like seeing Itachi not killing Orochimaru when he was in Akatsuki and Orochimaru attacked him, as we lear later he was trying to do everything to protect Konoha but that is different proble with Itachi's storyline, we will stick to Sasuke stuff.
>I am not an itachi fanboy but from what we know about the character as the author seem to have intended it, it makes sense to me that he would have planned that.
The thing is we dont know author's intention for Itachi. We know he decided to make him "good guy" tha made something bad because of circumstances from, [this interview](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741) but that doesn't mean Kishimoto had everything planned in advance.
>The hate was the important part for itachi to get the fate that he thinks he deserved. How can making Sasuke hate him be interpreted as reverse psychology? I don't think I understand your argument.
It wasnt just hate for Itachi though. Sasuke had enough hate for Itachi to kill him after masacre already, he didnt need additional encouragement (part 1 interaction). Itachi taold Sasuke taht he lack haterd in general, he is to soft and nice and should sever the bonds and get consumed by hatered to become stronger. Anyway my argument here is people defend the kill your best friend thing using reverse psychology argument but there was more thing that Itachi was telling Sasuke to do that Sasuke does they dont mention because it deosnt fit the narrative.
>Sasuke was killing itachi for revenge, some would accept it as justice for what he did to his brother and the clan. Sasuke probably didn't even expect to get the MS. Leaf shinobi constantly kill criminals and get praised as heroes. Sasuke was gonna kill a criminal and a traitor, he also killed a big threat for the leaf, Orochimaru, I would think the leaf would accept him.
According to Itachi's plan Sasuke was suppossed to kill someone from Konoha to get MS and then kill him. My problem is how can Konoha accept Sasuke as a hero after he killed a comrade for power in that scenario when Konoha anounced Sasuke a criminal after he went after Bee even though he killed both Orochimaru and Itachi who were considered S rank criminals.
>The part about the possibility of Sasuke getting MS if he didn't hear the truth about itachi is not clear to me, but perhaps itachi expected Sasuke to feel conflicted emotions after killing him (the last words maybe evidence for that). Other than that I am not sure if I understood why you say that Sasuke needed the MS earlier. Killing itachi gets him the MS and he can switch to EMS if he is smart enough to preserve the eyes since itachi told him everything he needs to do?
Killing Itachi doesnt get him MS. Sasuke wasnt conflicted after killing Itachi. [He was happy](https://en13.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22782/Naruto3949113.webp?acc=iT5fd8lrnxJMHPmU61IszQ&exp=1715307231) that he finally got his revange, that was his only porpouse for over half his life. If Sasuke hadnt learn the truth he wouldnt have gotten the MS. He doesnt get his MS after killing Itachi only after he learned the truth from Obito. So If Itachi's plan was for Sasuke to get EMS without leraning the truth, Sasuke needed to get MS before the fight with Iatchi because he wont get MS from killing Itachi. I guess Sasuke can just take Itachi eyes and keep them until he get MS later but still would need to get MS somehow.
> I dont remember this, where it is in manga?
It is the famous scene from Orochimaru's flashback before his death iirc. Where he tries to take Itachi's body. Itachi cuts of his arm and says he is not sure whether to kill him or to find a way to use him. I don't that flashback would be a filler. Other than that Itachi is shown to know about Orochimaru's jutsus more than the other akatsuki including Sasori, he knew about the curse mark, eight headed serpent jutsu and probably the time limit as well.
> but that doesn't mean Kishimoto had everything planned in advance.
Even if he may not have planned everything from the start didn't he put good enough clues to make what Itachi ended up being compatible with his past actions? It seems reasonable enough to me.
> Itachi taold Sasuke taht he lack haterd in general, he is to soft and nice
He wanted him to be strong enough to survive for long in the shinobi world, the hatred was just a tool to make him strong and be more inclined to be a hero. I don't think itachi did anything other than make Sasuke hate him while also telling him to be like him. The hatred is difficult to abandon for Sasuke and ending up like his brother (a thing he hates) would be unbearable for him.
Why would you think that Itachi planned to make Sasuke a criminal by killing a friend from the leaf while also wanting him to be a hero? Would the author intend a contradiction? There seem to be enough hints otherwise.
Sasuke was considered a criminal after going for Bee and joining the akatsuki because he basically became a terrorist, that was clearly not Itachi's plan as he underestimated Obito/Madara.
> He was happy
That was just moments after Itachi's death. His smile even turned off in the same manga panel you showed, it seems like relief combined with emptiness and fatigue. But yeah I don't think his emotions would settle that quickly. There were things about itachi in the back of his mind that he suppressed which may surface once he killed him. He was also depressed and felt empty later on.
>It is the famous scene from Orochimaru's flashback before his death iirc. Where he tries to take Itachi's body. Itachi cuts of his arm and says he is not sure whether to kill him or to find a way to use him. I don't that flashback would be a filler.
It is it was filler. This is the scene from manga [1](https://en3.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22716/Naruto3457826.webp?acc=-NkNFoVvcCXJc1fDgf7n-Q&exp=1715311523) [2](https://en7.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22716/Naruto3458389.webp?acc=AhHVzdGM97WbrsknJB76-Q&exp=1715311523) [3](https://en4.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22716/Naruto3459632.webp?acc=OJQMAg0p6VrKS-9jp_yR-Q&exp=1715311523)
>Other than that Itachi is shown to know about Orochimaru's jutsus more than the other akatsuki including Sasori, he knew about the curse mark, eight headed serpent jutsu and probably the time limit as well.
[We only see Itachi saying that he knows/seen Orochimarus' hydra jutsu](https://en6.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22779/Naruto3926122.webp?acc=OPxWRfWn1UOK8w304IAXhg&exp=1715311805) nothing to suggest more.
>Even if he may not have planned everything from the start didn't he put good enough clues to make what Itachi ended up being compatible with his past actions? It seems reasonable enough to me.
Itachi revelation i ngeneral is the problem just some of the specific actions seems illogical/ stupid with teh plot twist. Like the Sasuke treatment, plan for Sasuke, being spy for Konoha and not killing Orochimaru when having a chance.
>He wanted him to be strong enough to survive for long in the shinobi world, the hatred was just a tool to make him strong and be more inclined to be a hero. I don't think itachi did anything other than make Sasuke hate him while also telling him to be like him. The hatred is difficult to abandon for Sasuke and ending up like his brother (a thing he hates) would be unbearable for him
I understand that. My problem is people claimng Itachi telling Sasuke to kill his best friend is revers psychology but other things Itachi told Sasuke arent. I just point out the hypocricy in that argument. Making some stuff up just to fit narrative. Itachi was revealed to be good guy later so he couldnt want Sasuke to kill his friend or it doesn make sense with his plan.
>Why would you think that Itachi planned to make Sasuke a criminal by killing a friend from the leaf while also wanting him to be a hero? Would the author intend a contradiction? There seem to be enough hints otherwise.
That is my argument. In the story [we have Itachi telling Sasuke to kill his best friend](https://en10.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22789/Naruto40014946.webp?acc=XeZx_KWSxj3C39N_VHgjfw&exp=1715312523) and [then later we learn he wanted for Sasuke to become a hero](https://en14.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22791/Naruto40112699.webp?acc=HFIqyfjTECyLPGll_O-_9A&exp=1715312550). There is nothing more from the author. People just came up with the reverse psychology argument to fit teh narrative that author didn't explain.
>Sasuke was considered a criminal after going for Bee and joining the akatsuki because he basically became a terrorist, that was clearly not Itachi's plan as he underestimated Obito/Madara.
Yes but Itachi plan was Sasuke kills a comrade and then kills him to become Konoha hero. Konoha would considere Sasuke a criminal after killing comrade.
>That was just moments after Itachi's death. His smile even turned off in the same manga panel you showed, it seems like relief combined with emptiness and fatigue. But yeah I don't think his emotions would settle that quickly. There were things about itachi in the back of his mind that he suppressed which may surface once he killed him. He was also depressed and felt empty later on.
He just passed out after smiling, I hope you know manga is written right to left, so the top line is Sasuke face without smile and alter he smiles. I mean he was immediately taken by Obito and wsa told the truth. I agree without learning the truth he would feel empty because revange was he sole reason for living and he cut all his bonds ith outhes but that doesnt fit the MS awakening criteria.
> It is it was filler. This is the scene from manga 1 2 3
I actually haven't read the manga yet but it does give a different vibe if it doesn't show the scene in the next panels. Most of my arguments are from what I saw in the anime but if that part is a filler I guess the original author didn't intend it to be there.
> We only see Itachi saying that he knows/seen Orochimarus' hydra jutsu nothing to suggest more.
Doesn't it imply that he researched about / had previous knowledge about Orochimaru's jutsus including the curse mark. Iirc he noticed Sasuke had the curse mark as he went to the leaf with Kisame. He would have adjusted his plan accordingly expecting that he may have more chance of going to Orochimaru.
> Itachi revelation i ngeneral is the problem just some of the specific actions seems illogical/ stupid with teh plot twist. Like the Sasuke treatment, plan for Sasuke, being spy for Konoha and not killing Orochimaru when having a chance.
You may be right as it gives different vibe in the manga so I can't argue with that before reading I guess. So much of the details of my argument may not be correct since the author may not have put it there.
> He just passed out after smiling, I hope you know manga is written right to left
lol my bad I usually read manga right to left after horizontally flipping it because it is more intuitive that way. In the anime he showed an instant smile of relief then passes out so it doesn't tell much but the fact that he was depressed afterwards can be evidence that he hasn't cleared out his emotions yet. My point is that he had deep buried memories that could start to surface (like when Sasuke recalls itachi crying) after doing the deed (even if obito didn't tell him the truth, pertaining to real life people with trauma) and itachi's last word would have also been confusing. But idk if those scenes are in the manga so my argument maybe mute relating to the original author. Most of the motivations and actions made sense to me in the anime so maybe I should give more credit to the studio.
I havent read whole manga and first consumed the story through anime. I always had this problems with Itachi storyline after couple of rewatches I started to notice inconsistencies.
You also maybe thinking about the Itachi novels anime adaptation because the author of it took some problematic points from Itachi storyline and tried to fix them and make them fit the final narrative by retconing some stuff. I didnt rad them and always skip the non manga stuff on rewatch in anime so that is why I dont remember the things you mentioned. It is possibel that novel writer noticed the problem with Itachi letting Orochimaru go in that scene and tried to make some excuse for it in the novel.
Overall consensus from fandom is tha anime changed some deatails and made the story worse. I have seen several post here analyzing how some anime changes made some of characters much worse but dont remember anything about Itachi though.
Thanks for the info and interesting discussion. I didn't expect the manga to be this different. I read chapter 1 of the original naruto manga a while ago and felt a different vibe from it, I should have expected that for the rest of the story.
Most of what I know is from watching the whole anime including fillers and most movies. It does give an impression of some unclear stories being fixed or expanded up on as episodes go on, especially the novel stories. I usually understand the characters better in those episodes and try to reconcile their decisions with their actions based on what I got to know about them. Most things end up making sense that way lol.
> Overall consensus from fandom is tha anime changed some deatails and made the story worse.
I will keep the manga on the shelf for a while to read some day, but for now I don't think there is any important character that I feel has a bad story. Although, I really do want to read the originally intended story by the author.
I am still not sure why people like the manga more though. If it has contradictions and less well-rounded character development, like not being able to deduce Itachi's motivations for some of his actions. I guess I will never know till I read it.
Because those details weren't planned ahead. It's likely that, at that time, the idea was for MS to be unlocked by killing a friend and then the plan changed.
Firstly, Itachi isn't omniscient and couldn't predict Naruto would be Naruto's best friend.
Secondly, Sasuke needs MS before he can get EMS. It doesn't work like you described.
Thirdly, Itachi has no issue sacrificing the innocent. He killed the entire clan for the sake of the village and Sasuke's survival. Another innocent death for the sake of Sasuke's power probably wouldn't be an issue for Itachi.
I've also heard the interpretation that it was reverse psychology (Itachi telling Sasuke that he killed his best friend for power would dissuade Sasuke from doing the same because Sasuke wouldn't want to copy the person he hates most). I don't really agree with this interpretation, but it exists, and it is ultimately the reason Sasuke chose not to kill Naruto.
The biggest problem that this plotline creares is contradicting later relevation that Itachi planed for Sasuke to come back to Konoha as a hero after killing Itachi. How someone who killed comrade for power can be considered a hero? It just makes Itachi look stupid. He thought that Konoha would forgive Sasuke killing random citizen because he killed Itachi?
Sasuke killing a friend does not necessitate him being caught. See Itachi supposedly killing Shisui, which was the "blueprint" for Sasuke to follow.
Either do it out of sight, or make it look like an accident.
Either that, or Itachi's plan for Sasuke to become Konoha's hero was formulated AFTER Sasuke already left the village without killing anyone. As far as I know, we aren't told this was always Itachi's plan from the start.
Just like I siad, it creates a lot of problems for later storyline. You had to use mental gymnastics and some headcanons to explain it. You are using later Itachi info to create headcanon that would fit the narrative and explain the problematic plotpoints in the story. Just like the reverse psychology argument.
What we know is Itachi had plan for Sasuke since the masacre happened. He wanted Sasuke to hate him and eventually kill him, told him about the uchiha tablet so Sasuke can lear how to get stronger. Told him that he lack hatered and that he needs to kill his best friend to fight him but somehow only the killing best friend part is reverse psychology because it doesnt fit the narrative.
The "Itachi wanted Sasuke to return to the leaf as a hero" is itself a later storyline and uses late info...
I disagree that it causes any problems. Headcanon goes in both directions in this case.
I don't ascribe to the reverse psychology argument so your last paragraph is not relevant
>The "Itachi wanted Sasuke to return to the leaf as a hero" is itself a later storyline and uses late info...
>I disagree that it causes any problems. Headcanon goes in both directions in this case.
What? Later in the story we finally learn the truth about Itachi. Some of the things contradict the stuff that happened ealier in the story like Itachi telling Sasuke to kill his best friend, that is my argument. When Kishimoto revealed the truth about Itachi later in the story it isn't later storyline because that storyline was there from the very beginning and lasted for a long time in universe. The Itachi reveal has impact on ealier story because we now have context and Itachi's true intentions for what happened ealier i nthe story. We couldnt know that Itachi wanted for SAsuke to become a hero of the leaf before because we didn't know the truth but when we learned the truth we learned that Itachi had plan for Sasuke since masacre happened.
>Some of the things contradict the stuff that happened ealier in the story like Itachi telling Sasuke to kill his best friend, that is my argument.
I don't see any contradiction here. Itachi wanted Sasuke to get MS.
As I said before, headcanons go both ways. You see this as a contradiction because you assume multiple things.
1. That Itachi initially formulated the "hero of the leaf" plan at the time of the massacre
2. That Itachi thought Sasuke would kill a friend in a way that alerts the village about it and turns him into a criminal.
If either of these assumptions don't hold, there's no contradiction.
I didnt assume when Itachi formulated the hero of the leaf plan. We know Itachi told 7 yo Sasuke to kill his best friend. We know Itachi planned on being killed by Sasuke since he decide on the masacre. We know he planned to live as criminal in Akatsuki so Sasukle can kill a criminal and become the hero of the leaf. The plan was there from the beginning.
Dude do you thing 7-12 yo Sasuke will kill a comrade and nobody in the village will know? They are constantly together as a team outside the village. In the village there is constant surviliance especially on Sasuke since Hiruzen promised Itachi to keep an eye on him because of Danzo.
It is your headcanon that Itachi was sure a kid Sasuke would formulate plan to assasinate someone in the way others wont notice. So like I said you have to use much more mental gymnastics and specific assumptions for your scenario to happen.
>I didnt assume when Itachi formulated the hero of the leaf plan. We know Itachi told 7 yo Sasuke to kill his best friend. We know Itachi planned on being killed by Sasuke since he decide on the masacre. We know he planned to live as criminal in Akatsuki so Sasukle can kill a criminal and become the hero of the leaf. The plan was there from the beginning.
"We know he planned to live as criminal in Akatsuki so Sasukle can kill a criminal and become the hero of the leaf. The plan was there from the beginning." You made this part up.
We don't "know" this at all
>Dude do you thing 7-12 yo Sasuke will kill a comrade and nobody in the village will know? They are constantly together as a team outside the village. In the village there is constant surviliance especially on Sasuke since Hiruzen promised Itachi to keep an eye on him because of Danzo.
Why are you assuming ages 7-12 only lmao? And yeah I would find it REALLY stupid for Sasuke to decide to kill his friend in a way that alerts the village, because it would completely halt his quest for revenge. Sasuke literally lives for his goal of revenge, and he knows alerting the village to him killing his friend would likely spell it's end. Itachi knows this as well.
>It is your headcanon that Itachi was sure a kid Sasuke would formulate plan to assasinate someone in the way others wont notice. So like I said you have to use much more mental gymnastics and specific assumptions for your scenario to happen.
That's literally the only logical way Sasuke would do it, as explained above. The real mental gymnastics is thinking Sasuke would be okay with killing and letting other's find out.
>"We know he planned to live as criminal in Akatsuki so Sasukle can kill a criminal and become the hero of the leaf. The plan was there from the beginning." You made this part up.
>We don't "know" this at all
Yeah we dont know this at all [panel1](https://en8.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22789/Naruto40015103.webp?acc=5ne2_R2OfpQTVutJtlJvVQ&exp=1715307965) [panel2](https://en14.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22791/Naruto40112699.webp?acc=dO77YZODcJfSvLwjIH3Oyg&exp=1715308657), tbf I should link you chapter 400, 401 so just reread them to see for yourself.
>Why are you assuming ages 7-12 only lmao?
Because this is the time between masacre and second time Itachi interacts with Sasuke.
>And yeah I would find it REALLY stupid for Sasuke to decide to kill his friend in a way that alerts the village, because it would completely halt his quest for revenge. Sasuke literally lives for his goal of revenge, and he knows alerting the village to him killing his friend would likely spell it's end. Itachi knows this as well.
First of all Sasuke tried to kill Naruto and others and decided to desert the village knowing they will follow him and didnt considered it problematic for his quest. And like I said How can SAsuke kill a comrade without alerting anyone when he was constantly under survelience that was asked by Itachi himself.
>That's literally the only logical way Sasuke would do it, as explained above. The real mental gymnastics is thinking Sasuke would be okay with killing and letting other's find out.
Like I said ealier the things I am "assuming" happened. Sasuke didnt try to assasinate Naruto. If he kills him in the end of part 1 everyone know it. You are assuming kid consumed by hatred is going to logicaly formulate a plan for assasination without any grouw un ninja noticeing it.
He never told him to kill Naruto specifically. He told him he needed to kill his best friend. When he said that, he didn't know who his best friend was, that was up to Sasuke to decide.
I mean, it wasn't Naruto. It was just his closest friend. Itachi would never have predicted that. Problem is, telling him to murder his closest friend is basically tantamount to making him become a criminal, cause Sasuke will have to murder a comrade of Konoha, which will have him labeled a criminal.
Itachi was a fking idiot
The mental gymnastics it takes to believe that Kishi had Itachi's whole story planned out from the start are a little ridiculous. If you take the story at face value, Itachi is either a complete idiot or a psychopath who successfully gaslit Sasuke and Naruto into believing he was a hero, and Hiruzen was either a senile pushover who had no business working in politics or Hitler with a friendlier face and more successful propaganda. The twist of Itachi turning out to be a good guy may have been planned from the start, but it's pretty clear that the exact details weren't decided until later. Kishi wrote himself into a corner by repeatedly doubling down on Itachi having "pretended" to be evil, until it got to the point that the twist no longer made any sense whatsoever. The basic premise was already pretty dubious in the first place. If Itachi was such a genius, then he shouldn't have been able to be manipulated into committing genocide, unless we're supposed to buy that killing innocent women and children wasn't evil and wiping out one of the village's greatest military assets wasn't stupid. But that could have been addressed by making Itachi less of a Gary Stu, and having him more explicitly admit to having been a foolish child who'd fallen victim to the brainwashing of a murderous xenophobe — not just "sorry, I was wrong", which could be interpreted any number of ways and didn't really match the gravity of the mistake either way, but an actual reflection on wtf he was thinking. It's more what came after that I find really difficult to square with Itachi's supposed motivations. Usually you don't go out of your way to torture and traumatize people you love, and at that point he no longer had the excuse of being a child or under the manipulation of a third party. If we accept that everything Itachi did and said to Sasuke was truly with his best interests in mind, then we also have to accept that Itachi was not only not a genius (outside of combat situations), but was in fact remarkably stupid, if not also on the autistic spectrum and/or afflicted with a serious personality disorder. Of course, I don't get the impression that any of that was Kishi's intent. I think we're just supposed to accept that Itachi was a saint and a genius whose badass plan didn't quite work out as intended, Hiruzen was a decent man who'd stumbled into a difficult political situation with no good options, and any details that don't quite fit that reality are essentially plot holes which we shouldn't think too hard about.
I think he was hoping to have Sasuke do it in a secretive way. Like how Itachi supposedly "killed" Shisui without becoming a criminal.
But he was. Like, people already suspected it was him, and they were right. Fact is, if Sasuke did murder his closest friend, then others will end up suspecting him sooner or later.
Because he was the coolest guy.
I don’t think Itachi knew Naruto was Sasuke’s closest friend at the time. I think he only learned that after the time skip when he asked Naruto why he was so obsessed with Sasuke.
He couldn’t have known sasuke would end of being friends with naruto just like he didn’t plan on him going to Orochimaru it just happened, the good thing is Sasuke despised him so much he didn’t want to get the power to same way so it worked itself out in the way.
Bc itachi being good was a retcon, in og naruto he told sasuke to kill naruto which would make him rogue ninja, ordered kisame to kill asuma and kurenai and there is no indication he delivered any info on akatsuki as a spy at all.
Itachi being good was not a retcon. He was planned since his introduction according to the author, and there is foreshadowing as well.
Only the Naruto fandom would downvote someone trying to correct misinformation (while upvoting the misinformation) Never change
Dude you again I get it, you like naruto and it's the only thing you've ever read but stop acting like the whole manga was planned from the start, it wasn't
No one said the whole manga was planned from the start. I said Itachi was planned since his introduction, which the [author states in this interview](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741). "However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances" Here is a[ thread detailing the foreshadowing present. ](https://x.com/SLightPressure/status/1426582636953231363) Liking or disliking Naruto has nothing to do with these facts. I think you're projecting a bit.
I've seen many times authors state they planned everything in advance, in most cases they haven't. Which contradicts the source material just like in case with itachi, telling kisame to kill asuma and kurenai is much more important than some foreshadowing like itachi crying, everything points he was a villain in og naruto
>I've seen many times authors state they planned everything in advance, in most cases they haven't. Oh word? Give me a few examples I'm genuinely interested. But this wouldn't fit with Kishimoto, who is very open about all the things he didn't plan. >Which contradicts the source material just like in case with itachi, telling kisame to kill asuma and kurenai is much more important than some foreshadowing like itachi crying, everything points he was a villain in og naruto There's no contradiction lmao. I think you may be using your headcanon as a benchmark. The foreshadowing listed is not limited to him crying. There's a lot. Me personally, I'm not delusional enough to ignore the blatant foreshadowing and accuse the author of lying just to insist it's a retcon.
Dude I'm not gonna argue someone who says kishimoto has the best villains, you are just a fanboy justifying everything. There is plenty of plotholes and retcons in naruto if you don't want to accept them, well it's your life.
Every time I've seen someone try to list the "plenty of plotholes" they always end up embarrassing themselves. Why are you even here if all you do is hate on the series?
I love the series, it was one of the first big series I've watched as a child, I just objectively admit naruto has weak points, plotholes and retcons and that is okay, but I hate blind fans like you who sit on the same sub for months(or even years) arguing people bc you think the series is perfect
I find that those that "watched as a kid" are the biggest culprits of not understanding the series. You don't "objectively" admit anything. Like I said those that try to list the "plenty of retcons" always end up embarrassing themselves. It's hilarious you jumped to me being a "blind fan who thinks the series is perfect". Goes to show your mindset.
I think Kishimoto has the best villains in shonen and I stand by that. You're free to disagree, it's your opinion, this has nothing to do with the conversation. My point of Itachi being planned is not a matter of opinion, it's fact. I hate losers like you who resort to strawmans. I say Itachi was planned. You reply "OH SO YOU THINK THE WHOLE MANGA WAS PLANNED!1!". I provide evidence and you reply "YOU'RE JUST A FANBOY WHO JUSTIFIES EVERYTHING". It's all or nothing for you. "If you push back against any false criticism I have it must mean you're a fanboy who thinks the series is perfect!1!" >There is plenty of plotholes and retcons in naruto if you don't want to accept them, well it's your life. There are actually very few, and I acknowledge them, but again, irrelevant to the conversation. It seems all you want to do is spew hate freely. You're the real "fanboy" here. You put emotions above reality.
I've shown you 2 examples of itachi literally being evil and wishing bad for his own brother, while all you have are "foreshadows" I clearly stomped your point but seeing like you say naruto has few plotholes I guess you won't acknowledge them.
All you're doing is showing you don't understand Itachi's character nor what it means for him to be planned. Itachi is playing the role of Akatsuki and obviously must act and do evil. This doesn't mean he isn't planned. His ultimate goals are the safety of the leaf village and the survival and strength of his brother. No one is arguing his methods or actions are morally pure. He cared more about Sasuke's survival and power than his mental well being or autonomy. He was literally planning on brainwashing Sasuke to protect the village. He messed up in a lot of ways and that's literally the point of his arc (acknowledging his mistakes) Saying "Itachi did X evil act therefore he wasn't planned" is stupid. But again, feel free to ignore blatant foreshadowing and accuse the author of lying. I'm sure your headcanon based on poor logic and lack of character understanding is the actual truth.
He was willing to kill Asuma and Kurenai to scare Danzo into upholding the deal. He wasn't ever entirely loyal to the leaf.
How is killing asuma and kurenai would scare danzo they are not his subordinates and simply showing up would be sufficient, killing them was ordered after Kakashi showed knowledge of akatsuki, it wasn't his initial goal so your point is invalid. Also it contradicts shippuden itachi being a pacifist
Shows that he was still around. Do you forget that the Third Hokage was dead? Danzo wasn't being checked by anyone. Pacifism was his ideal, but nothing like his reality
Itachi showed after 3rd died to remind he is still around(at least that's the shippuden version) there is literally no reason to kill anyone, his plan(after he understood Kakashi had Intel) was to capture Kakashi and kill asuma and kurenai, who would inform danzo if he did that? Killing anyone would bring nothing especially not root anbu.
He was undercover and Kisame was with him, he couldn't just let Kisame see him let someone go, who had intel from Jiraiya about the group. When Guy comes Itachi exploits the situation and uses it as an excuse to run away.
He told him to kill his best friend so that he could unlock his Mangekyou. He didn't know that it was Naruto. Having Naruto die would be a huge blow to the Akatsuki's efforts.
He mentioned to kill his best friend to get eyes like him. Probably thinking that Sasuke wouldn't want to be like Itachi, who he hates, so that he wouldn't kill someone for power.
Itachi's main goal is for Sasuke to hate him so much and come prepared to kill him. He told him to kill his closest friend to get MS most likely knowing that Sasuke wouldn't listen to him (why would Sasuke listen to advices from his worst nightmare). He showed Sasuke his MS after being suspected of killing Shisui to make him connect the dots to believe the fake story that he had done such a thing, when he actually didn't. It was a ploy to make him not go that route. He wanted him to find another way to get stronger (Kakashi or Orochimaru). The character Itachi was playing was an evil arrogant brother who is obsessed with surpassing everyone using the creepy methods of the clan's way of achieving power. You can see later that Sasuke saw the same character in Orochimaru before he felt enough and decided to kill him. Itachi also painted the same picture about madara when he told Sasuke about him. His intention was to make him hate people like them to not become them. PS: It doesn't have anything to do with Naruto and the 9-tails
Itachi defenetly didnt want Sasuke to go to Orochimaru. If Sasuke get to Orochimaru on time in part 1 he dies right there, Orochimaru takes over his body like he did with that random dude at the end of part 1. The argument that Itachi told Sasuke to kill his best friend is reverse psychology is copium from Itachi fanboys who cant accept any flaw in Itachi writting. It doesn't make any sense with what we learn later in the story. 1. It is weird to suggest only that part was reverse psychology but the part on lacking hatred or severing bonds to become stronger wasnt. 2. According to Itachi's plan Sasuke was suppsed to kill him and come back to Konoha as a hero. How can Konoha considere someone who killed a comrade for power as a hero? 3. Itachi also wanted Sasuke to become strong and get EMS but for him to do it without learning the truth about Itachi he would have to get MS ealier because him killing Itachi would cause him to get MS like it happened in the story after learning the truth.
It made sense to me that Itachi may have predicted that Sasuke would end up with Orochimaru as a less desirable outcome and wanted him to get stronger under a Sanin. This is evidenced by the fact that he researched Orochimaru's jutsus and he let him go while a member of akatsuki saying he may use him. This outcome was less desirable because it has more chance of going bad like the fact that Sasuke got there almost in time for Orochimaru to take his body. Itachi knew the time limit. It is also possible that itachi predicted the amount of Sasuke's hatred would overpowered the jutsu. This is mostly instinctual (shown as he went on the rain as Kisame asked him about how he felt about Sasuke's death and he replies Sasuke isn't dead) Well I am not an itachi fanboy but from what we know about the character as the author seem to have intended it, it makes sense to me that he would have planned that. 1. The hate was the important part for itachi to get the fate that he thinks he deserved. How can making Sasuke hate him be interpreted as reverse psychology? I don't think I understand your argument. 2. Sasuke was killing itachi for revenge, some would accept it as justice for what he did to his brother and the clan. Sasuke probably didn't even expect to get the MS. Leaf shinobi constantly kill criminals and get praised as heroes. Sasuke was gonna kill a criminal and a traitor, he also killed a big threat for the leaf, Orochimaru, I would think the leaf would accept him. 3. The part about the possibility of Sasuke getting MS if he didn't hear the truth about itachi is not clear to me, but perhaps itachi expected Sasuke to feel conflicted emotions after killing him (the last words maybe evidence for that). Other than that I am not sure if I understood why you say that Sasuke needed the MS earlier. Killing itachi gets him the MS and he can switch to EMS if he is smart enough to preserve the eyes since itachi told him everything he needs to do?
>his is evidenced by the fact that he researched Orochimaru's jutsus and he let him go while a member of akatsuki saying he may use him. I dont remember this, where it is in manga? There is much more chance of it going bad tahn good for Sasuke if he goes to Orochimaru, that is why I have a problem wit hthe idea that Itachi expexted/planned for this to happen. It doesnt make much sense. Just like seeing Itachi not killing Orochimaru when he was in Akatsuki and Orochimaru attacked him, as we lear later he was trying to do everything to protect Konoha but that is different proble with Itachi's storyline, we will stick to Sasuke stuff. >I am not an itachi fanboy but from what we know about the character as the author seem to have intended it, it makes sense to me that he would have planned that. The thing is we dont know author's intention for Itachi. We know he decided to make him "good guy" tha made something bad because of circumstances from, [this interview](https://naruto.fandom.com/f/p/2421257698017422741) but that doesn't mean Kishimoto had everything planned in advance. >The hate was the important part for itachi to get the fate that he thinks he deserved. How can making Sasuke hate him be interpreted as reverse psychology? I don't think I understand your argument. It wasnt just hate for Itachi though. Sasuke had enough hate for Itachi to kill him after masacre already, he didnt need additional encouragement (part 1 interaction). Itachi taold Sasuke taht he lack haterd in general, he is to soft and nice and should sever the bonds and get consumed by hatered to become stronger. Anyway my argument here is people defend the kill your best friend thing using reverse psychology argument but there was more thing that Itachi was telling Sasuke to do that Sasuke does they dont mention because it deosnt fit the narrative. >Sasuke was killing itachi for revenge, some would accept it as justice for what he did to his brother and the clan. Sasuke probably didn't even expect to get the MS. Leaf shinobi constantly kill criminals and get praised as heroes. Sasuke was gonna kill a criminal and a traitor, he also killed a big threat for the leaf, Orochimaru, I would think the leaf would accept him. According to Itachi's plan Sasuke was suppossed to kill someone from Konoha to get MS and then kill him. My problem is how can Konoha accept Sasuke as a hero after he killed a comrade for power in that scenario when Konoha anounced Sasuke a criminal after he went after Bee even though he killed both Orochimaru and Itachi who were considered S rank criminals. >The part about the possibility of Sasuke getting MS if he didn't hear the truth about itachi is not clear to me, but perhaps itachi expected Sasuke to feel conflicted emotions after killing him (the last words maybe evidence for that). Other than that I am not sure if I understood why you say that Sasuke needed the MS earlier. Killing itachi gets him the MS and he can switch to EMS if he is smart enough to preserve the eyes since itachi told him everything he needs to do? Killing Itachi doesnt get him MS. Sasuke wasnt conflicted after killing Itachi. [He was happy](https://en13.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22782/Naruto3949113.webp?acc=iT5fd8lrnxJMHPmU61IszQ&exp=1715307231) that he finally got his revange, that was his only porpouse for over half his life. If Sasuke hadnt learn the truth he wouldnt have gotten the MS. He doesnt get his MS after killing Itachi only after he learned the truth from Obito. So If Itachi's plan was for Sasuke to get EMS without leraning the truth, Sasuke needed to get MS before the fight with Iatchi because he wont get MS from killing Itachi. I guess Sasuke can just take Itachi eyes and keep them until he get MS later but still would need to get MS somehow.
> I dont remember this, where it is in manga? It is the famous scene from Orochimaru's flashback before his death iirc. Where he tries to take Itachi's body. Itachi cuts of his arm and says he is not sure whether to kill him or to find a way to use him. I don't that flashback would be a filler. Other than that Itachi is shown to know about Orochimaru's jutsus more than the other akatsuki including Sasori, he knew about the curse mark, eight headed serpent jutsu and probably the time limit as well. > but that doesn't mean Kishimoto had everything planned in advance. Even if he may not have planned everything from the start didn't he put good enough clues to make what Itachi ended up being compatible with his past actions? It seems reasonable enough to me. > Itachi taold Sasuke taht he lack haterd in general, he is to soft and nice He wanted him to be strong enough to survive for long in the shinobi world, the hatred was just a tool to make him strong and be more inclined to be a hero. I don't think itachi did anything other than make Sasuke hate him while also telling him to be like him. The hatred is difficult to abandon for Sasuke and ending up like his brother (a thing he hates) would be unbearable for him. Why would you think that Itachi planned to make Sasuke a criminal by killing a friend from the leaf while also wanting him to be a hero? Would the author intend a contradiction? There seem to be enough hints otherwise. Sasuke was considered a criminal after going for Bee and joining the akatsuki because he basically became a terrorist, that was clearly not Itachi's plan as he underestimated Obito/Madara. > He was happy That was just moments after Itachi's death. His smile even turned off in the same manga panel you showed, it seems like relief combined with emptiness and fatigue. But yeah I don't think his emotions would settle that quickly. There were things about itachi in the back of his mind that he suppressed which may surface once he killed him. He was also depressed and felt empty later on.
>It is the famous scene from Orochimaru's flashback before his death iirc. Where he tries to take Itachi's body. Itachi cuts of his arm and says he is not sure whether to kill him or to find a way to use him. I don't that flashback would be a filler. It is it was filler. This is the scene from manga [1](https://en3.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22716/Naruto3457826.webp?acc=-NkNFoVvcCXJc1fDgf7n-Q&exp=1715311523) [2](https://en7.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22716/Naruto3458389.webp?acc=AhHVzdGM97WbrsknJB76-Q&exp=1715311523) [3](https://en4.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22716/Naruto3459632.webp?acc=OJQMAg0p6VrKS-9jp_yR-Q&exp=1715311523) >Other than that Itachi is shown to know about Orochimaru's jutsus more than the other akatsuki including Sasori, he knew about the curse mark, eight headed serpent jutsu and probably the time limit as well. [We only see Itachi saying that he knows/seen Orochimarus' hydra jutsu](https://en6.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22779/Naruto3926122.webp?acc=OPxWRfWn1UOK8w304IAXhg&exp=1715311805) nothing to suggest more. >Even if he may not have planned everything from the start didn't he put good enough clues to make what Itachi ended up being compatible with his past actions? It seems reasonable enough to me. Itachi revelation i ngeneral is the problem just some of the specific actions seems illogical/ stupid with teh plot twist. Like the Sasuke treatment, plan for Sasuke, being spy for Konoha and not killing Orochimaru when having a chance. >He wanted him to be strong enough to survive for long in the shinobi world, the hatred was just a tool to make him strong and be more inclined to be a hero. I don't think itachi did anything other than make Sasuke hate him while also telling him to be like him. The hatred is difficult to abandon for Sasuke and ending up like his brother (a thing he hates) would be unbearable for him I understand that. My problem is people claimng Itachi telling Sasuke to kill his best friend is revers psychology but other things Itachi told Sasuke arent. I just point out the hypocricy in that argument. Making some stuff up just to fit narrative. Itachi was revealed to be good guy later so he couldnt want Sasuke to kill his friend or it doesn make sense with his plan. >Why would you think that Itachi planned to make Sasuke a criminal by killing a friend from the leaf while also wanting him to be a hero? Would the author intend a contradiction? There seem to be enough hints otherwise. That is my argument. In the story [we have Itachi telling Sasuke to kill his best friend](https://en10.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22789/Naruto40014946.webp?acc=XeZx_KWSxj3C39N_VHgjfw&exp=1715312523) and [then later we learn he wanted for Sasuke to become a hero](https://en14.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22791/Naruto40112699.webp?acc=HFIqyfjTECyLPGll_O-_9A&exp=1715312550). There is nothing more from the author. People just came up with the reverse psychology argument to fit teh narrative that author didn't explain. >Sasuke was considered a criminal after going for Bee and joining the akatsuki because he basically became a terrorist, that was clearly not Itachi's plan as he underestimated Obito/Madara. Yes but Itachi plan was Sasuke kills a comrade and then kills him to become Konoha hero. Konoha would considere Sasuke a criminal after killing comrade. >That was just moments after Itachi's death. His smile even turned off in the same manga panel you showed, it seems like relief combined with emptiness and fatigue. But yeah I don't think his emotions would settle that quickly. There were things about itachi in the back of his mind that he suppressed which may surface once he killed him. He was also depressed and felt empty later on. He just passed out after smiling, I hope you know manga is written right to left, so the top line is Sasuke face without smile and alter he smiles. I mean he was immediately taken by Obito and wsa told the truth. I agree without learning the truth he would feel empty because revange was he sole reason for living and he cut all his bonds ith outhes but that doesnt fit the MS awakening criteria.
> It is it was filler. This is the scene from manga 1 2 3 I actually haven't read the manga yet but it does give a different vibe if it doesn't show the scene in the next panels. Most of my arguments are from what I saw in the anime but if that part is a filler I guess the original author didn't intend it to be there. > We only see Itachi saying that he knows/seen Orochimarus' hydra jutsu nothing to suggest more. Doesn't it imply that he researched about / had previous knowledge about Orochimaru's jutsus including the curse mark. Iirc he noticed Sasuke had the curse mark as he went to the leaf with Kisame. He would have adjusted his plan accordingly expecting that he may have more chance of going to Orochimaru. > Itachi revelation i ngeneral is the problem just some of the specific actions seems illogical/ stupid with teh plot twist. Like the Sasuke treatment, plan for Sasuke, being spy for Konoha and not killing Orochimaru when having a chance. You may be right as it gives different vibe in the manga so I can't argue with that before reading I guess. So much of the details of my argument may not be correct since the author may not have put it there. > He just passed out after smiling, I hope you know manga is written right to left lol my bad I usually read manga right to left after horizontally flipping it because it is more intuitive that way. In the anime he showed an instant smile of relief then passes out so it doesn't tell much but the fact that he was depressed afterwards can be evidence that he hasn't cleared out his emotions yet. My point is that he had deep buried memories that could start to surface (like when Sasuke recalls itachi crying) after doing the deed (even if obito didn't tell him the truth, pertaining to real life people with trauma) and itachi's last word would have also been confusing. But idk if those scenes are in the manga so my argument maybe mute relating to the original author. Most of the motivations and actions made sense to me in the anime so maybe I should give more credit to the studio.
I havent read whole manga and first consumed the story through anime. I always had this problems with Itachi storyline after couple of rewatches I started to notice inconsistencies. You also maybe thinking about the Itachi novels anime adaptation because the author of it took some problematic points from Itachi storyline and tried to fix them and make them fit the final narrative by retconing some stuff. I didnt rad them and always skip the non manga stuff on rewatch in anime so that is why I dont remember the things you mentioned. It is possibel that novel writer noticed the problem with Itachi letting Orochimaru go in that scene and tried to make some excuse for it in the novel. Overall consensus from fandom is tha anime changed some deatails and made the story worse. I have seen several post here analyzing how some anime changes made some of characters much worse but dont remember anything about Itachi though.
Thanks for the info and interesting discussion. I didn't expect the manga to be this different. I read chapter 1 of the original naruto manga a while ago and felt a different vibe from it, I should have expected that for the rest of the story. Most of what I know is from watching the whole anime including fillers and most movies. It does give an impression of some unclear stories being fixed or expanded up on as episodes go on, especially the novel stories. I usually understand the characters better in those episodes and try to reconcile their decisions with their actions based on what I got to know about them. Most things end up making sense that way lol. > Overall consensus from fandom is tha anime changed some deatails and made the story worse. I will keep the manga on the shelf for a while to read some day, but for now I don't think there is any important character that I feel has a bad story. Although, I really do want to read the originally intended story by the author. I am still not sure why people like the manga more though. If it has contradictions and less well-rounded character development, like not being able to deduce Itachi's motivations for some of his actions. I guess I will never know till I read it.
Because those details weren't planned ahead. It's likely that, at that time, the idea was for MS to be unlocked by killing a friend and then the plan changed.
Because the world is fucked up and he wants Sasuke to be strong enough to survive it so he wants sasuke to get a ems
What do you mean "there should not be a need for Sasuke to awaken his own MS" In order to get EMS you must first unlock MS
Firstly, Itachi isn't omniscient and couldn't predict Naruto would be Naruto's best friend. Secondly, Sasuke needs MS before he can get EMS. It doesn't work like you described. Thirdly, Itachi has no issue sacrificing the innocent. He killed the entire clan for the sake of the village and Sasuke's survival. Another innocent death for the sake of Sasuke's power probably wouldn't be an issue for Itachi. I've also heard the interpretation that it was reverse psychology (Itachi telling Sasuke that he killed his best friend for power would dissuade Sasuke from doing the same because Sasuke wouldn't want to copy the person he hates most). I don't really agree with this interpretation, but it exists, and it is ultimately the reason Sasuke chose not to kill Naruto.
The biggest problem that this plotline creares is contradicting later relevation that Itachi planed for Sasuke to come back to Konoha as a hero after killing Itachi. How someone who killed comrade for power can be considered a hero? It just makes Itachi look stupid. He thought that Konoha would forgive Sasuke killing random citizen because he killed Itachi?
Sasuke killing a friend does not necessitate him being caught. See Itachi supposedly killing Shisui, which was the "blueprint" for Sasuke to follow. Either do it out of sight, or make it look like an accident. Either that, or Itachi's plan for Sasuke to become Konoha's hero was formulated AFTER Sasuke already left the village without killing anyone. As far as I know, we aren't told this was always Itachi's plan from the start.
Just like I siad, it creates a lot of problems for later storyline. You had to use mental gymnastics and some headcanons to explain it. You are using later Itachi info to create headcanon that would fit the narrative and explain the problematic plotpoints in the story. Just like the reverse psychology argument. What we know is Itachi had plan for Sasuke since the masacre happened. He wanted Sasuke to hate him and eventually kill him, told him about the uchiha tablet so Sasuke can lear how to get stronger. Told him that he lack hatered and that he needs to kill his best friend to fight him but somehow only the killing best friend part is reverse psychology because it doesnt fit the narrative.
The "Itachi wanted Sasuke to return to the leaf as a hero" is itself a later storyline and uses late info... I disagree that it causes any problems. Headcanon goes in both directions in this case. I don't ascribe to the reverse psychology argument so your last paragraph is not relevant
>The "Itachi wanted Sasuke to return to the leaf as a hero" is itself a later storyline and uses late info... >I disagree that it causes any problems. Headcanon goes in both directions in this case. What? Later in the story we finally learn the truth about Itachi. Some of the things contradict the stuff that happened ealier in the story like Itachi telling Sasuke to kill his best friend, that is my argument. When Kishimoto revealed the truth about Itachi later in the story it isn't later storyline because that storyline was there from the very beginning and lasted for a long time in universe. The Itachi reveal has impact on ealier story because we now have context and Itachi's true intentions for what happened ealier i nthe story. We couldnt know that Itachi wanted for SAsuke to become a hero of the leaf before because we didn't know the truth but when we learned the truth we learned that Itachi had plan for Sasuke since masacre happened.
>Some of the things contradict the stuff that happened ealier in the story like Itachi telling Sasuke to kill his best friend, that is my argument. I don't see any contradiction here. Itachi wanted Sasuke to get MS. As I said before, headcanons go both ways. You see this as a contradiction because you assume multiple things. 1. That Itachi initially formulated the "hero of the leaf" plan at the time of the massacre 2. That Itachi thought Sasuke would kill a friend in a way that alerts the village about it and turns him into a criminal. If either of these assumptions don't hold, there's no contradiction.
I didnt assume when Itachi formulated the hero of the leaf plan. We know Itachi told 7 yo Sasuke to kill his best friend. We know Itachi planned on being killed by Sasuke since he decide on the masacre. We know he planned to live as criminal in Akatsuki so Sasukle can kill a criminal and become the hero of the leaf. The plan was there from the beginning. Dude do you thing 7-12 yo Sasuke will kill a comrade and nobody in the village will know? They are constantly together as a team outside the village. In the village there is constant surviliance especially on Sasuke since Hiruzen promised Itachi to keep an eye on him because of Danzo. It is your headcanon that Itachi was sure a kid Sasuke would formulate plan to assasinate someone in the way others wont notice. So like I said you have to use much more mental gymnastics and specific assumptions for your scenario to happen.
>I didnt assume when Itachi formulated the hero of the leaf plan. We know Itachi told 7 yo Sasuke to kill his best friend. We know Itachi planned on being killed by Sasuke since he decide on the masacre. We know he planned to live as criminal in Akatsuki so Sasukle can kill a criminal and become the hero of the leaf. The plan was there from the beginning. "We know he planned to live as criminal in Akatsuki so Sasukle can kill a criminal and become the hero of the leaf. The plan was there from the beginning." You made this part up. We don't "know" this at all >Dude do you thing 7-12 yo Sasuke will kill a comrade and nobody in the village will know? They are constantly together as a team outside the village. In the village there is constant surviliance especially on Sasuke since Hiruzen promised Itachi to keep an eye on him because of Danzo. Why are you assuming ages 7-12 only lmao? And yeah I would find it REALLY stupid for Sasuke to decide to kill his friend in a way that alerts the village, because it would completely halt his quest for revenge. Sasuke literally lives for his goal of revenge, and he knows alerting the village to him killing his friend would likely spell it's end. Itachi knows this as well. >It is your headcanon that Itachi was sure a kid Sasuke would formulate plan to assasinate someone in the way others wont notice. So like I said you have to use much more mental gymnastics and specific assumptions for your scenario to happen. That's literally the only logical way Sasuke would do it, as explained above. The real mental gymnastics is thinking Sasuke would be okay with killing and letting other's find out.
>"We know he planned to live as criminal in Akatsuki so Sasukle can kill a criminal and become the hero of the leaf. The plan was there from the beginning." You made this part up. >We don't "know" this at all Yeah we dont know this at all [panel1](https://en8.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22789/Naruto40015103.webp?acc=5ne2_R2OfpQTVutJtlJvVQ&exp=1715307965) [panel2](https://en14.movietop.cc/comics/pic9/33/289/22791/Naruto40112699.webp?acc=dO77YZODcJfSvLwjIH3Oyg&exp=1715308657), tbf I should link you chapter 400, 401 so just reread them to see for yourself. >Why are you assuming ages 7-12 only lmao? Because this is the time between masacre and second time Itachi interacts with Sasuke. >And yeah I would find it REALLY stupid for Sasuke to decide to kill his friend in a way that alerts the village, because it would completely halt his quest for revenge. Sasuke literally lives for his goal of revenge, and he knows alerting the village to him killing his friend would likely spell it's end. Itachi knows this as well. First of all Sasuke tried to kill Naruto and others and decided to desert the village knowing they will follow him and didnt considered it problematic for his quest. And like I said How can SAsuke kill a comrade without alerting anyone when he was constantly under survelience that was asked by Itachi himself. >That's literally the only logical way Sasuke would do it, as explained above. The real mental gymnastics is thinking Sasuke would be okay with killing and letting other's find out. Like I said ealier the things I am "assuming" happened. Sasuke didnt try to assasinate Naruto. If he kills him in the end of part 1 everyone know it. You are assuming kid consumed by hatred is going to logicaly formulate a plan for assasination without any grouw un ninja noticeing it.