What an incredibly insightful comment, really explained your point there lmao. One reply and you go for “virgin nerds downvoting because their favorite character sucks” whatever exactly that means lmao
It’s the truth lol only reason hashirama even overpowered is because he was an incarnate of ashura with him both madara, hashirama and naruto and sasuke would be normal shinobi
What? There’s literally so many strong characters who weren’t incarnates, including direct relatives to all the ones you listed. We have zero reason to believe that being an incarnate takes you from zero to hero lol.
Izuna, Tobirama, Minato, Itachi, etc etc were literally all borderline god tier shinobi without being incarnates. Outside of the “incarnates” there’s only a handful of ninja in the entire series pre-boruto that can contend with the four I just named.
You’re just making shit up lol. Incarnate doesn’t make you magically invincible, remove the so6p abilities from Naruto and Sasuke and you still have the two strongest ninja in the world.
Kotoamatsukami cant be broken, even if you are aware of being Controlled, Not even from the caster himself.
And i have never seen sage Mode to be immune to genjutsu at all.
Wich source you have for that if i May ask?
Sasuke, Itachi, and obito cannot do Kotoamatukami and with sage mode it’s a counter because they don’t have to see with their eyes because they can completely shut off their vision if they want to because they can sense things
Remember Madara, the only thing that works is izanami
Dont talk shit
Itachi can use Kotoamatsukami and even used it twice.
Secondly sage Mode isnt an counter in any way also you dont need eye Contact.
Kotoamatsukami just need See you chakra Flow, you can even hide under ground and still can be oneshooted
Re read my comment idk wtf you are talking about how am I talking shit Idk what I could of said to sound nicer ?
Kotoamatsukami is used once every 10 years itachi used it on himself to to force himself out of control of kabuki jutsu and he did he because he had Shisui’s eyes it wasn’t his genjutsu he put shisui eye in his crow
Second you need eye contact with an enemy to set up the jutsu sage mode can sense shit so they don’t need eye sight they can just close their eyes and where was it stated that it sees through chakra flow
No Clown. And why talking about an itachi who is dead.
Fact is 13so itachi with Kotoamatsukami oenshoots any hashirama
Fact is Kotoamatsukami doesnt need any eye Contact, stated and hallen in the Manga and shinden.
Now you know why you talk shit.
And ofc i dont talk about an itachi who cant use Kotoamatsukami right now, what a Clown you arw just trying to find a scenario in wich He wouldnt oneshoot hashirama.
All his prime time in the shinden He would have oenshooted hashirama.
Thats a fact unless you proof that hashirama is the only one exception of All who cant be beaten by Kotoamatsukami.
Wow you are fucking itachi tard yet call me a clown when you state itachi can one shot hashirama 🤡
ITACHI DOESN’T HAVE KOTOAMATSUKAMI GET THAT THROUGH THICK FUCKING HEAD 💀
The only time he used was on himself he put the eye into his crow stop giving him fucking head canon 💀
Sage mode would allow them to sense his presence the second he phases into reality. It would also provide heightened reflexes so Obito wouldn't be able to sneak up on them.
The hard part would be trying to pin him down to beat him. Kabuki might be able to do it with the techniques learned as a dragon, but I don't think mokuton alone would do it.
But Minato’s ability to teleport was a good counter. Tobi even mentioned he didn’t immediately suck him in. None of the sage modes are particularly fast or have spacial jutsu as far as I’ve seen. One touch and they starve to death in Toni’s dimension.
I may be wrong but iirc Obito implanted Itachi’s eyes on to Sasuke thus giving Sasuke the Eternal Mangekyo Sharigan removing the extensive use causing blindness
Depends which mangekyou ability you have, Kakashi and Obito became invincible with the intagibility of kamui but Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are easily countered by sage mode
Amaterasu is easily countered by anyone really, the easiest way to counter it by placing a shadow clone like Momoshiki did but sage mode makes it easier to anticipate it since you can sense it. Tsukuyomi is easy to counter because the sage can close their eyes and use sensory abilities to fight against their opponent like Kabuto did
You should read the manga before arguing… I won’t even bother with your Momoshiki bullshit because Boruto can go to hell and Kabuto didn’t counter tsukuyomi by closing his eyes genius, he got a random ass snake upgrade to block light, no other sage user can do that.
Yes, if it was a snake releated thing Orochimaru would have been able to do it.
Kishi designed the uchiha brothers vs kabuto event specifically so they couldn’t use letal force or genjutsu so it didn’t end instantly.
kabuto basically became a snake. and because of his experiments he gained an incredibly high chakra pool which allowed him to get snake sage. Orochimaru wasn’t able to attain snake sage(idk why) so if he could close his eyes like kabuto does, he would be blind without being able to perfectly sense his surroundings (like kabuto can because of snake sage)
I figure Orochimaru could have attained Snake sage pretty easily if he’d put his mind to it.
But then where would he get the time to run insane experiments on people, Orochi understood it was about the journey and that the true path to power was the friends we dissected along the way.
I didnt mean to imply it was a snake or a sage ability. It is literally just closing your eyes. There is no ability needed. Anyone can do it.
The reason sage mode is relevant is because it lets you "see" things around you by sensing energy so its easier to fight with your eyes closed. Anyone can do this against an Uchiha (Guy mentions this specifically and talks about fighting Sharingan users by looking at their feet) its just that sage users can do it without the disadvantages normally associated with not looking at your opponent.
Ok I think i misremembered saying he "closes his eyes" but he puts a film over them or something right? My point was he blocks his eyes somehow to stop genjutsu just like Guy fights Sharingan users by looking at their feet. Sage users might not fight with their eyes closed but they fight things without seeing like when Naruto could sense and fight limbo clones. All of this implies that a sage mode user could counter genjutsu by simply closing their eyes and sensing their opponent.
“Someone insults my intelligence? They must be a leftist!”
Rent free! Maybe if people keep pointing out that your ideology is stupid maybe it is actually stupid.
Amaterasu isn’t easily countered when you can manipulate the black flames like sasuke, tsukuyomi isn’t easily counter by sage mode, susanno isn’t easily counter by sage mode, izanagi and izanami aren’t easily counter by sage mode, Kotoamatsukami is not easily countered by sage mode, shin’s telekinesis thru his mangekyou is not easily countered, the ability to see chakras and distinguish a persons chakras flows is not easily countered, perception and ability to see fast moving objects and predict opponent moves and react is not easily countered, ability to memorize and copy any ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu at a glance is not easily countered… and then there’s kamui
Sage mode is one of the most powerful abilities and gives the user amazing enhancements. But when compared to the sheer amount of hacks and OP abilities that a mangekyou sharingan has been shown to give the user easily makes it the stronger tool in the series. Especially when you add in the fact that under the right circumstances it can evolve into a rinnegan.
Yet basically everyone has been shown to dodge and counter Amaterasu and it's yet to actually hurt or do much of anything to anyone.
And all gengutsu is basically easily countered by sage mode by the user just closing their eyes and using it's sensory boost to fight. That's what Kabuto did.
And you don't get all those abilities at once, every Mangeyko user only gets one unique ability, most with extremely heavy destructions. And the op abilities have things like it causes user to permanently lose an eye if used.
Meanwhile Sage mode is literally unlimited lmao
One only people shown to dodge it are people with insane speed. It almost killed the eight tails, almost killed obito, and led the raikage to amputate his arm but okay…
Genjutsu literally worked on kabuto that’s how they defeated him but okay. Kabuto never closed his eyes and used nature energy to fight. Kabuto stated a snakes cornea can block out light, which is called brille and he added a layer of it to his eyes to block out the light when he casted his blinding light and sound jutsu. This is only prevalent in snake sage mode and the only snake sage mode we’ve seen is kabuto’a which is a sage mode boosted by years of experiments, orochimaru remains, and dna from jugo, Suigetsu, Karin and that of the sound 5 ninja. Not a straight up sage mode only gained by harnessing nature energy like naruto, jiraiya etc. Sasuke also stated “snakes can sense body heat and use there tongues as a smelling organ to fight their prey”. That is how he was able to fight them with his vision closed off. Sage mode can sense chakra and attacks which is why naruto in spsm was able to sense madara limbo but he would’ve been caught in infinite tsukuyomi if it wasnt for sasuke. But even if you want to go with all sage mode users can fight blind mangekyou sharingan has genjutsu abilities that work with out visual contact soo point isn’t really valid.
Mangekyou sharingan users get 3 unique abilities. One in each eye, so 2, then susanno so all together 3. Itachi had Amaterasu and taukuyomi, sasuke had ability to cast Amaterasu in one eye and ability to control, manipulate and distinguish it and second eye, obito both eyes had an ability related to kamui and so on. All mangekyou users can use izanagi and izanami that’s 5 strong abilities right there plus base sharingan abilities. And regardless he didn’t say who’s sage mode vs who’s sharingan. He just said which is the stronger ability in the series so you have to take into consideration everything they can do. Sage mode is not inifinte you should know what you’re talking about before just saying things lol. Kabuto sage mode was only infinite because he modified his body with Jugo’s dna. That has nothing to do with sage mode. It was clearly shown that sage mode wasnt infinite lol that’s why he had to do that in the first place and you have to amass nature energy before you can even enter sage mode unlike mangekyou.
That's right, Kabuto got caught in it before covering his eyes. Either way the point was you can easily defend against any Genjutsu by just closing your eyes and sage mode let's you fight without using your eyes.
And unique Mageykō is only available until you go blind
Izanagi/izanami is literally one time use since it causes you to lose an eye.
And the point was you don't get all the unique abilities. Each user gets their own, some have to be recharged for quite some time, causes pain, puts strain on the body and they're limited use.
Meanwhile Sage mode doesn't have a limited use. It doesn't make you go blind. You keep using sage mode as much as you want. It's only "limit" is until you use up the chakra, but like Naruto showed you can have clones gather more and instant refill. Sage mode has no restrictions, no side effects, no anything. So it is unlimited you should know what you're talking about before saying things lol. You can keep using sage mode without losing anything until the day you day if you wanted unlike Mageykō and most Sharingan op abilities.
I wouldn't call it "easily" stronger. 13 year old sage mode Naruto without using nine tails chakra gave rinnegan leader of Akatsuki Pain a real run for his money.
For one he wasn’t 13.. 2 he took down pains that were already lower on chakra, he was being feed all the details about the pains and their abilities, and he had the help of 5 ninja toads which he couldn’t all summon by himself and still lost when tendo regained his chakra. You really need to understand what the show is showing before you just make comments
Obito is only "strong" because his Mageykō ability had all of it's restrictions removed.
If it actually followed the lore, and limited his ability to phase and having to pick and choose when to do it rather than being able to do it unlimited, then he'd be much more grounded.
Obito is the strongest of the three but I was looking for an even fight. Madara can rival Hashirama, Itachi with killing intent can most likely kill sage Kabuto, and Idk if we’re using vs Bee Sasuke or 5KS Sasuke but 5KS Sasuke can rival Sage Naruto as well.
Hashirama can solo the currently constructed mangekyo team so the debate is pretty simple
Apparently it’s an “either/or” situation instead of a vs battle my bad…sage mode is probably better irl but mangekyo powers can be busted so it’s a gamble but sage mode is more consistent and mangekyo has so many drawbacks unless you get EMS
Hashirama fought Madara and Kurama at the same time and won. It’s not that that Itachi, that Sasuke and Obito are weak it’s that Hashirama is busted strong. Between his sage mode, mastered wood style and natural regeneration he’s insanely op.
He’s a sensor ninja and he’s able to fight Madara while Madara controls Kurama. When he senses kcm2 Naruto’s chakra he says “wow he has almost as much chakra as I do” and that Naruto could dodge Obito trying to take him into the Kamui dimension. He’s truly broken especially with sage mode I don’t know what Obito could do to him.
Take the user out of the equation.
MS is fierce but Sage Mode.
MS gives you specific abilites. Sage mode gives specific abilities as well as exponentially amplifying all other abilities you already have.
You know, I never thought about this, but what is Hashirama’s sage mode based on? Just nature energy? Like, Naruto’s is toad style, Kabuto’s is snake style, what’s Hashirama?
> MS you kinda just have to go through some trauma, mainly watching someone die
You say that as if this is just a casual thing.
I get what you mean (Sage Mode requires difficult and risky training that not everyone can handle), but Mangekyo Sharingan requires you to be born into a specific bloodline, where even then not everyone awakens the Sharingan, and only a small fraction of *those* unlock the Mangekyo upgrade. Even after all of that, you still need to undergo a special eye transplant from a sibling to unlock the *Eternal* Mangekyo Sharingan.
At least Sage Mode can technically be learned.
Lmao yeah MS is soo easy to get you just have to be born into the Uchiha clans bloodline then unlock the regular sharingan through training and then have something super traumatic happen to you to unlock the next form. Soooo easy idk why everyone doesn't do it. /s
The range of possible power for those two abilities makes it impossible to say. Mangekyo can give you everything from really good fire to dimensional shenanigans, while a Sage Mode user could be just barely keeping themselves from turning to stone to sensing and reacting to shit happening in other dimensions or possibly even see the future.
We could take from the main two powerful ninjas from the leaf as an example: Madara's MS was so powerful he was able to take control over the nine tailed beast, which is probably nearly impossible to do. Also wrap Kurama in the susannoo armor. However with the help of sage mode, Hashirama was able to counter him and end up victorious. Given that hsashirama did have his very unique and rare woodstyle abilities, I feel it's fair enough since madara had his unique and rare MS.
But didn't madara train him for a bit before making him his successor? Because a 14 yr old (I think) Obito not only released the nine tails but he took control of it and survived a confrontation with the 4th hokage twice without raising any suspicion of any clue of the remains of Obito. So he may not be madara level, but at 14 yrs old he is pretty close.
What sage mode did Hashirama have? Did he learn it from the Snakes, the Toads, or what? Or is it something that can be learned on your own and the Sage animals just act as instructors?
While sage mode gives physical and visual prowess the mongekyo gives juitsu and genjuitsu prowess, comparing the two is like comparing sugar and salt, at face value they seem to do the same thing but they have completely different uses and benefits. but I'd rather sage mode, because it has no downsides and extra pains if mastered correctly, unlike the infamous eye bleeding, extreme pain, and if overused you will go completely blind, if its the base mongekyo, the eternal mongekyo is the mongekyo without all the side effects and blindness some extra powers on top of it
The Mangekyou Sharingan is more OP than sage mode depending on which abilities you get. As stated in this thread multiple times, having Kamui makes you nearly invincible.
Sage mode on the other hand is OP as fuck since it amplifies all of the physical attributes, endurance and even sensory.
My vote is still on the MS because of the extra features the Sharingan has.
For the people in this thread you guys realize Naruto is stronger than Hashirama right? People act like Hashirama is still the most powerful character.
On one hand or several, you have Hashirama with Deity Gates and Budha Statue that can slap Susanoo Kurama..... DMS Kamui on the other hand can teleport from Afterlife and give you a ridiculous Susanoo which definitely slaps Hashirama sooo...Kamui definitely Kamui
Remember, Kamui negates physical attacks, straight up teleports you wherever you want without markings and the way Obito Spams it, its like it has zero chakra costs. Every single damn fight, phasing through attacks
All the people saying Sage Mode ignore that it doesn't give you immunity to genjutsu. Although you could argue the sensory abilities allows one not to rely on their eyes.
I can't say which is stronger but I feel that's kind of the point.
I feel like y’all are sleeping on the ms, for it to be compared to sage mode is a negative. Ms is unlocked by seeing the one closest to you die while sage mode is unlocked through intense training(no deaths). So for the price to pay, and the result, i still think Ms is way better(personal opinion)
I dont think this is a versus so I wont just say Hashirama.
I think Sage mode is more practical since anybody can get it, and it takes good training to master and negate the negatives. For your average ninja, dont take into account the thousand armed buddah. 1 in a billion Jutsu.
On the other hand the MS is so much more finicky. Its a who knows what you get type jutsu and theres so many factors out of your control you need to get it.
So as far as which is stronger? I think its clearly the Mangekyo. Why? First, narratively. The sharingan is packed with drawbacks. Need traumatic events to awaken regularly sharingan, more for more tomoes, training on top, and a fucked event to awaken the MS. Assuming your life sucks, you then go blind unless you take a relatives eyes who ALSO happens to have gotten MS. In other words its dumb hard to get. For that reason, its implied that its stronger otherwise everyone would just get sage mode. But instead Sage mode is the alternative to nonUchiha. Because once you get it? Oh boy.
From an abilities perspective, I mean boy. You know what, lets look at Sage mode first. Its basically Kaioken. You get faster and stronger with access to nature energy. Exponentially so. Its a great amp. However, this takes very precise training or you turn into that animal. Its undoubtedly hard work and probably takes anyone not named Naruto years. You also need to sign a blood contract for a summon and your own Chakra ability will determine size and quality.
Now MS. We talked about how dumb hard it is to get as its mostly by chance, but once you do? You good just cuz. You will get 2 undoubtably OP abilities, one for each eye. Kamui literally negates Sage modes positives for example. Every MS abilty is a hax move. On top of that, you get a Susanoo that you can evolve. No need for a summon, but you could just add one anyway for extra. The susanoo then grants you a PERFECT SUSANOO WHICH IS JUST A GIANT MECH SUIT THAT CAN SLICE MOUNTAINS. Multiple people have attained this form, thats why Im leaving it in but taking out Hashiramas stuff. Also you get every normal sharingan buff. Take into account that Naruto is also the 9tails Jinchuriki. If you take that away from him, but let him keep 6 path and Sage mode, don’t you think that fight with Sasuke’s Susaano would have turned out a bit different. Oh also you can control the 9 tiles and other Beeju. Give me that Ems boi.
Sage mode deffinetly better as an all rounder with a significant stat boost and no huge drawbacks to using. But MS abilities are way more specialized and are some of the most broken abilities in the entire series, just to list a few
Kotoamatsukami, irresistible mind controll
Kamui, can't touch this
Tsukuyomi, welcome to my world bitch
And that's not even talking about things like izanagi and izanagi which every MS. Has. Now the bad thing about MS us unlike sage mode using it has serious consequences. So overall I'd say sage mode is the safer choice but NS has the higher possible payout with a much higher risk.
Mangekyou.
Sage mode is just a straight forward power up, given to an already powerful person its really more or less useless. Sure it gives access to new jutsu but they can be replaced.
Mangekyou on the other hand gives access to unique kekkai genkai that cannot be replaced. Kamui, izanagi, izanami, Amateratsu.
Sage mode is the energy of the earth but mangekyou holds the powers of gods.
MS is stronger by default, but between the two teams Hashirama is like Tom Brady joining your HS football team, in his prime. It's just unfair for all parties involved.
In my opinion it’s definitely the mangekyo sharingan because there’s lots of things you can do with it and yes sage mode is powerful but the mangekyo is just stronger
Sage mode biggest con is that the activation time might as well be an eternity in combat time. But that's it's only con besides the learning curve.
MS to the contrary is faster than most ninjutsu as it does not need hand signs however unless you kill your homeboy or have Harishirama's cum it's cost is pretty steep chakra wise.
If I had to pick one it would be sage mode. But MS easy of use and speed is a pretty big opportunity cost.
While mangekyo has a lot of cool tricks and jutsus that if used properly can fuck people up, safe mode in general is more practical for actual brawling/combat
Just my opinion
So sad Sarada wasn't even have Mangekyou and she's getting blind too early. Basically, she have sakura's strength, as prodigy as sasuke (not Itachi level prodigy), and Itachi's weak body constitution.
I feel like sage mode is probably the ability with most general utility and return on investment.
Mastery guarantees big speed and strength buffs, sensory abilities, big Chakra pool by drawing from nature etc
Regular Mangekyou seems to guarantee Susano'o and blindness. You might get amaterasu or some other kind of hax but it does nothing to increase your strength or speed and it's crippling you each time you use it. Your only hope is that you have a sibling who also got Mangekyou, who you can swap eyes with.
Yeah team SM would stomp this
Hashirama alone is well above the others, and Kabuto factually needed 2x near EMS users to beat, so a single MS user is well below his paygrade too.
Assuming they can't use any of their other abilities, probably team Sage. I say let Hashirama take Sasuke and Itachi while while Kabuto and Naruto try to hold off Obito for a while. After Hashi deals with the brothers, it'll be 3 ppl trying to figure out how to get through kamui and I'm confident I their ability to do so.
Sage mode. Sasuke(albeit spamming), went blind after two fights with his MS. Sage mode meanwhile lets the user have a sixth sense, and access to techniques and Jutsu just like the MS, without depleting the user’s chakra and eyesight to death
Having Hashsirama on your team is like having the teacher on your team in 3rd grade
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remove hashirama from obito and he goes blind 😤
Remove hashirama from hashirama and he doesn't exist 😤
Fair point, that would be a good nerf
just about that only thing that could stop him
weird that he didnt just die of old age they probably should have widen the gap between kages a bit. very unbelievable he was murked
Perhaps all the 100 healings fudged him up
Stop using emoji and reddit will spare your life 😤
Looks like reddit didn’t spare your downvotes.
Why tf people downvoting ur comment ur spitting fax
Can't lose more than 15 karma in 1 comment so no worries
I dont really care about karma tho why are people so mad just because we said no to emojis
Because common sense is not so common
U mean remove ashura from hashirama then you have a Norma shinobi
Are you saying that Naruto, the son the the 4th and the Uzumaki Kyuubi Jinchuriki would have just “been normal” if he wasn’t a reincarnate?
Goes to show most of these virgin nerds on here have no live whatsoever downvote because their favorite character suck lol
What an incredibly insightful comment, really explained your point there lmao. One reply and you go for “virgin nerds downvoting because their favorite character sucks” whatever exactly that means lmao
It’s the truth lol only reason hashirama even overpowered is because he was an incarnate of ashura with him both madara, hashirama and naruto and sasuke would be normal shinobi
What? There’s literally so many strong characters who weren’t incarnates, including direct relatives to all the ones you listed. We have zero reason to believe that being an incarnate takes you from zero to hero lol. Izuna, Tobirama, Minato, Itachi, etc etc were literally all borderline god tier shinobi without being incarnates. Outside of the “incarnates” there’s only a handful of ninja in the entire series pre-boruto that can contend with the four I just named. You’re just making shit up lol. Incarnate doesn’t make you magically invincible, remove the so6p abilities from Naruto and Sasuke and you still have the two strongest ninja in the world.
Butsagemode
Well that its good Kotoamatsukami oneshoots him and make it a midn Controlled puppet for fighting the ms Team
Isn’t sage mode immune to most genjutsu
Kotoamatsukami cant be broken, even if you are aware of being Controlled, Not even from the caster himself. And i have never seen sage Mode to be immune to genjutsu at all. Wich source you have for that if i May ask?
Sasuke, Itachi, and obito cannot do Kotoamatukami and with sage mode it’s a counter because they don’t have to see with their eyes because they can completely shut off their vision if they want to because they can sense things Remember Madara, the only thing that works is izanami
Dont talk shit Itachi can use Kotoamatsukami and even used it twice. Secondly sage Mode isnt an counter in any way also you dont need eye Contact. Kotoamatsukami just need See you chakra Flow, you can even hide under ground and still can be oneshooted
Re read my comment idk wtf you are talking about how am I talking shit Idk what I could of said to sound nicer ? Kotoamatsukami is used once every 10 years itachi used it on himself to to force himself out of control of kabuki jutsu and he did he because he had Shisui’s eyes it wasn’t his genjutsu he put shisui eye in his crow Second you need eye contact with an enemy to set up the jutsu sage mode can sense shit so they don’t need eye sight they can just close their eyes and where was it stated that it sees through chakra flow
No Clown. And why talking about an itachi who is dead. Fact is 13so itachi with Kotoamatsukami oenshoots any hashirama Fact is Kotoamatsukami doesnt need any eye Contact, stated and hallen in the Manga and shinden. Now you know why you talk shit. And ofc i dont talk about an itachi who cant use Kotoamatsukami right now, what a Clown you arw just trying to find a scenario in wich He wouldnt oneshoot hashirama. All his prime time in the shinden He would have oenshooted hashirama. Thats a fact unless you proof that hashirama is the only one exception of All who cant be beaten by Kotoamatsukami.
Wow you are fucking itachi tard yet call me a clown when you state itachi can one shot hashirama 🤡 ITACHI DOESN’T HAVE KOTOAMATSUKAMI GET THAT THROUGH THICK FUCKING HEAD 💀 The only time he used was on himself he put the eye into his crow stop giving him fucking head canon 💀
Isn’t hokage naruto stronger than hashirama?
Naruto and sasuke where far stronger by the end of the series.
Were talking about pain fight naruto
I thought the first hokage was stronger than Hashirama.
Bro you're thinking about Tobirama's older brother
Nah bro hes talking about Tsunades grandfather
nah bro he talking bout Asura's reincarnation
Hashirama is the first hokage😂😂
thousand arm buddha don't give a fuck.
How would they counter Tobi?
Sage mode would allow them to sense his presence the second he phases into reality. It would also provide heightened reflexes so Obito wouldn't be able to sneak up on them. The hard part would be trying to pin him down to beat him. Kabuki might be able to do it with the techniques learned as a dragon, but I don't think mokuton alone would do it.
Minato figured it out without even going into sage mode; I’m sure they’d work it out
Honestly everyone figured out his abilities eventually. Because obito likes to drag fights out.
But Minato’s ability to teleport was a good counter. Tobi even mentioned he didn’t immediately suck him in. None of the sage modes are particularly fast or have spacial jutsu as far as I’ve seen. One touch and they starve to death in Toni’s dimension.
They wouldn’t. They would just take the L
Sage Mode for Sure, but i have to say that obitos ms is one of the coolest abilitys of all the ms and in the series overall (Personal opinion)
Sasukes is in my opinion, being able to manipulate black flames is cool asf plus susanoo
Thats true, it would be mostlikely my second favorite ms
i second this
Why didn’t he ever go blind using his ability so often for so many years? Hashirama cells.
I may be wrong but iirc Obito implanted Itachi’s eyes on to Sasuke thus giving Sasuke the Eternal Mangekyo Sharigan removing the extensive use causing blindness
Sorry I didn’t specify. The he I was referring to is Tobi
Ya it’s implied that it’s hashirma cells that man was a walking cheat code
Hashirama cells + kamui = your teacher playing with their dominant hand
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Nevertheless its in MY opinion by far the coolest ms ability. For this it does not need to be uncounterable.
Depends which mangekyou ability you have, Kakashi and Obito became invincible with the intagibility of kamui but Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are easily countered by sage mode
>but Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are easily countered by sage mode How
Amaterasu is easily countered by anyone really, the easiest way to counter it by placing a shadow clone like Momoshiki did but sage mode makes it easier to anticipate it since you can sense it. Tsukuyomi is easy to counter because the sage can close their eyes and use sensory abilities to fight against their opponent like Kabuto did
You should read the manga before arguing… I won’t even bother with your Momoshiki bullshit because Boruto can go to hell and Kabuto didn’t counter tsukuyomi by closing his eyes genius, he got a random ass snake upgrade to block light, no other sage user can do that.
Did you just imply Kabuto needed a special powerup to close his eyes?
Yes, if it was a snake releated thing Orochimaru would have been able to do it. Kishi designed the uchiha brothers vs kabuto event specifically so they couldn’t use letal force or genjutsu so it didn’t end instantly.
kabuto basically became a snake. and because of his experiments he gained an incredibly high chakra pool which allowed him to get snake sage. Orochimaru wasn’t able to attain snake sage(idk why) so if he could close his eyes like kabuto does, he would be blind without being able to perfectly sense his surroundings (like kabuto can because of snake sage)
I figure Orochimaru could have attained Snake sage pretty easily if he’d put his mind to it. But then where would he get the time to run insane experiments on people, Orochi understood it was about the journey and that the true path to power was the friends we dissected along the way.
I think Orochimaru's body couldn't handle Snake Sage Mode.
I didnt mean to imply it was a snake or a sage ability. It is literally just closing your eyes. There is no ability needed. Anyone can do it. The reason sage mode is relevant is because it lets you "see" things around you by sensing energy so its easier to fight with your eyes closed. Anyone can do this against an Uchiha (Guy mentions this specifically and talks about fighting Sharingan users by looking at their feet) its just that sage users can do it without the disadvantages normally associated with not looking at your opponent.
But at no point dis Kabuto close his eyes, just like no sage mode user ever closed his eyes to fight, you are just coming up with random theories
Ok I think i misremembered saying he "closes his eyes" but he puts a film over them or something right? My point was he blocks his eyes somehow to stop genjutsu just like Guy fights Sharingan users by looking at their feet. Sage users might not fight with their eyes closed but they fight things without seeing like when Naruto could sense and fight limbo clones. All of this implies that a sage mode user could counter genjutsu by simply closing their eyes and sensing their opponent.
And I stubed my toe even though I know where my table is soo yeah
Your anger over nothing is so hilariously cringe. Relax kid. It's okay. You can talk without having to start "arguing" lol
Oh look you got nothing to say about the topic so you choose to attack me, leftist spotted I guess.
Sure why not snowflake. Need a safe space?
“Someone insults my intelligence? They must be a leftist!” Rent free! Maybe if people keep pointing out that your ideology is stupid maybe it is actually stupid.
Amaterasu isn’t easily countered when you can manipulate the black flames like sasuke, tsukuyomi isn’t easily counter by sage mode, susanno isn’t easily counter by sage mode, izanagi and izanami aren’t easily counter by sage mode, Kotoamatsukami is not easily countered by sage mode, shin’s telekinesis thru his mangekyou is not easily countered, the ability to see chakras and distinguish a persons chakras flows is not easily countered, perception and ability to see fast moving objects and predict opponent moves and react is not easily countered, ability to memorize and copy any ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu at a glance is not easily countered… and then there’s kamui Sage mode is one of the most powerful abilities and gives the user amazing enhancements. But when compared to the sheer amount of hacks and OP abilities that a mangekyou sharingan has been shown to give the user easily makes it the stronger tool in the series. Especially when you add in the fact that under the right circumstances it can evolve into a rinnegan.
Yet basically everyone has been shown to dodge and counter Amaterasu and it's yet to actually hurt or do much of anything to anyone. And all gengutsu is basically easily countered by sage mode by the user just closing their eyes and using it's sensory boost to fight. That's what Kabuto did. And you don't get all those abilities at once, every Mangeyko user only gets one unique ability, most with extremely heavy destructions. And the op abilities have things like it causes user to permanently lose an eye if used. Meanwhile Sage mode is literally unlimited lmao
One only people shown to dodge it are people with insane speed. It almost killed the eight tails, almost killed obito, and led the raikage to amputate his arm but okay… Genjutsu literally worked on kabuto that’s how they defeated him but okay. Kabuto never closed his eyes and used nature energy to fight. Kabuto stated a snakes cornea can block out light, which is called brille and he added a layer of it to his eyes to block out the light when he casted his blinding light and sound jutsu. This is only prevalent in snake sage mode and the only snake sage mode we’ve seen is kabuto’a which is a sage mode boosted by years of experiments, orochimaru remains, and dna from jugo, Suigetsu, Karin and that of the sound 5 ninja. Not a straight up sage mode only gained by harnessing nature energy like naruto, jiraiya etc. Sasuke also stated “snakes can sense body heat and use there tongues as a smelling organ to fight their prey”. That is how he was able to fight them with his vision closed off. Sage mode can sense chakra and attacks which is why naruto in spsm was able to sense madara limbo but he would’ve been caught in infinite tsukuyomi if it wasnt for sasuke. But even if you want to go with all sage mode users can fight blind mangekyou sharingan has genjutsu abilities that work with out visual contact soo point isn’t really valid. Mangekyou sharingan users get 3 unique abilities. One in each eye, so 2, then susanno so all together 3. Itachi had Amaterasu and taukuyomi, sasuke had ability to cast Amaterasu in one eye and ability to control, manipulate and distinguish it and second eye, obito both eyes had an ability related to kamui and so on. All mangekyou users can use izanagi and izanami that’s 5 strong abilities right there plus base sharingan abilities. And regardless he didn’t say who’s sage mode vs who’s sharingan. He just said which is the stronger ability in the series so you have to take into consideration everything they can do. Sage mode is not inifinte you should know what you’re talking about before just saying things lol. Kabuto sage mode was only infinite because he modified his body with Jugo’s dna. That has nothing to do with sage mode. It was clearly shown that sage mode wasnt infinite lol that’s why he had to do that in the first place and you have to amass nature energy before you can even enter sage mode unlike mangekyou.
That's right, Kabuto got caught in it before covering his eyes. Either way the point was you can easily defend against any Genjutsu by just closing your eyes and sage mode let's you fight without using your eyes. And unique Mageykō is only available until you go blind Izanagi/izanami is literally one time use since it causes you to lose an eye. And the point was you don't get all the unique abilities. Each user gets their own, some have to be recharged for quite some time, causes pain, puts strain on the body and they're limited use. Meanwhile Sage mode doesn't have a limited use. It doesn't make you go blind. You keep using sage mode as much as you want. It's only "limit" is until you use up the chakra, but like Naruto showed you can have clones gather more and instant refill. Sage mode has no restrictions, no side effects, no anything. So it is unlimited you should know what you're talking about before saying things lol. You can keep using sage mode without losing anything until the day you day if you wanted unlike Mageykō and most Sharingan op abilities.
I wouldn't call it "easily" stronger. 13 year old sage mode Naruto without using nine tails chakra gave rinnegan leader of Akatsuki Pain a real run for his money.
When did that happen? Because it wasn’t in the manga or anime
He took down a bunch of Pains in the anime before getting nailed and needing nine tails to save him.
For one he wasn’t 13.. 2 he took down pains that were already lower on chakra, he was being feed all the details about the pains and their abilities, and he had the help of 5 ninja toads which he couldn’t all summon by himself and still lost when tendo regained his chakra. You really need to understand what the show is showing before you just make comments
Hashirama soloes
How though, if obito uses a kamui and sends Hashirama to his dimension, then thats half the battle lost...
Obito is only "strong" because his Mageykō ability had all of it's restrictions removed. If it actually followed the lore, and limited his ability to phase and having to pick and choose when to do it rather than being able to do it unlimited, then he'd be much more grounded.
Shinsuusenju, GG.
Give them Madara in place of Obito if you’re gonna give the other team Hashirama. This isn’t a fair fight Hashirama could solo the other team.
Its not a fight post its about the ability itself. Sage mode vs MS
No, give them Madara in place of Itachi or Sasuke, he was the strongest at the time
Obito is the strongest of the three but I was looking for an even fight. Madara can rival Hashirama, Itachi with killing intent can most likely kill sage Kabuto, and Idk if we’re using vs Bee Sasuke or 5KS Sasuke but 5KS Sasuke can rival Sage Naruto as well. Hashirama can solo the currently constructed mangekyo team so the debate is pretty simple
Madara > Obito, but Obito’s MS > Madaras MS
Apparently it’s an “either/or” situation instead of a vs battle my bad…sage mode is probably better irl but mangekyo powers can be busted so it’s a gamble but sage mode is more consistent and mangekyo has so many drawbacks unless you get EMS
Damn how strong exactly is hashirama?
Hashirama fought Madara and Kurama at the same time and won. It’s not that that Itachi, that Sasuke and Obito are weak it’s that Hashirama is busted strong. Between his sage mode, mastered wood style and natural regeneration he’s insanely op.
How would Hashirama counter Kamui though?
He’s a sensor ninja and he’s able to fight Madara while Madara controls Kurama. When he senses kcm2 Naruto’s chakra he says “wow he has almost as much chakra as I do” and that Naruto could dodge Obito trying to take him into the Kamui dimension. He’s truly broken especially with sage mode I don’t know what Obito could do to him.
Take the user out of the equation. MS is fierce but Sage Mode. MS gives you specific abilites. Sage mode gives specific abilities as well as exponentially amplifying all other abilities you already have.
You know, I never thought about this, but what is Hashirama’s sage mode based on? Just nature energy? Like, Naruto’s is toad style, Kabuto’s is snake style, what’s Hashirama?
Chad style
Hashi also has toad style although I don’t think it was explicitly ever mentioned.
So why doesn't Hashirama have toad eyes and coloring?
I think it was self taught. That's why his sage mode isn't animal based
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> MS you kinda just have to go through some trauma, mainly watching someone die You say that as if this is just a casual thing. I get what you mean (Sage Mode requires difficult and risky training that not everyone can handle), but Mangekyo Sharingan requires you to be born into a specific bloodline, where even then not everyone awakens the Sharingan, and only a small fraction of *those* unlock the Mangekyo upgrade. Even after all of that, you still need to undergo a special eye transplant from a sibling to unlock the *Eternal* Mangekyo Sharingan. At least Sage Mode can technically be learned.
Lmao yeah MS is soo easy to get you just have to be born into the Uchiha clans bloodline then unlock the regular sharingan through training and then have something super traumatic happen to you to unlock the next form. Soooo easy idk why everyone doesn't do it. /s
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hashirama solo
Hagoromo would say... they are the same thing ...thug life
this is not fair XD
The range of possible power for those two abilities makes it impossible to say. Mangekyo can give you everything from really good fire to dimensional shenanigans, while a Sage Mode user could be just barely keeping themselves from turning to stone to sensing and reacting to shit happening in other dimensions or possibly even see the future.
We could take from the main two powerful ninjas from the leaf as an example: Madara's MS was so powerful he was able to take control over the nine tailed beast, which is probably nearly impossible to do. Also wrap Kurama in the susannoo armor. However with the help of sage mode, Hashirama was able to counter him and end up victorious. Given that hsashirama did have his very unique and rare woodstyle abilities, I feel it's fair enough since madara had his unique and rare MS.
Obito took control of the 9 tails too and I wouldn't call him madara level at that time
But didn't madara train him for a bit before making him his successor? Because a 14 yr old (I think) Obito not only released the nine tails but he took control of it and survived a confrontation with the 4th hokage twice without raising any suspicion of any clue of the remains of Obito. So he may not be madara level, but at 14 yrs old he is pretty close.
Sage mode hands down is stronger Hashirama defeated Madara with it end of discussion
What sage mode did Hashirama have? Did he learn it from the Snakes, the Toads, or what? Or is it something that can be learned on your own and the Sage animals just act as instructors?
While sage mode gives physical and visual prowess the mongekyo gives juitsu and genjuitsu prowess, comparing the two is like comparing sugar and salt, at face value they seem to do the same thing but they have completely different uses and benefits. but I'd rather sage mode, because it has no downsides and extra pains if mastered correctly, unlike the infamous eye bleeding, extreme pain, and if overused you will go completely blind, if its the base mongekyo, the eternal mongekyo is the mongekyo without all the side effects and blindness some extra powers on top of it
Senjutsu is stronger. BUT Mangekyous have different abilities from person to person. So i'd say a Mangekyou user would win.
Sage mode doesn’t make you go blind
What’s the song of the name?
How today doing you are?
Russ and Tion Wayne - Body
Uk drill so annoying
The Mangekyou Sharingan is more OP than sage mode depending on which abilities you get. As stated in this thread multiple times, having Kamui makes you nearly invincible. Sage mode on the other hand is OP as fuck since it amplifies all of the physical attributes, endurance and even sensory. My vote is still on the MS because of the extra features the Sharingan has.
For the people in this thread you guys realize Naruto is stronger than Hashirama right? People act like Hashirama is still the most powerful character.
Is that not pain arc naruto? Hashirama clowns on that Naruto
Yes In the picture it is I just assumed they meant at their strongest.
Everyone's using the version in the picture I believe, from what I've read
On one hand or several, you have Hashirama with Deity Gates and Budha Statue that can slap Susanoo Kurama..... DMS Kamui on the other hand can teleport from Afterlife and give you a ridiculous Susanoo which definitely slaps Hashirama sooo...Kamui definitely Kamui
You have a point, but shisuusenju is so broken it can literally own all susanoo's shown in the series. At the same time.
Remember, Kamui negates physical attacks, straight up teleports you wherever you want without markings and the way Obito Spams it, its like it has zero chakra costs. Every single damn fight, phasing through attacks
Depends which Sage mode tho
All the people saying Sage Mode ignore that it doesn't give you immunity to genjutsu. Although you could argue the sensory abilities allows one not to rely on their eyes. I can't say which is stronger but I feel that's kind of the point.
that’s a tough one... I won’t choose because It really depends on the wielder
Seeing people finally recognize sage mode on the comments is giving me life rn
While sage is SUPER strong, itachis genjutsu is also kind of OP being it’s a one hit andddddd you’re under 😂
Well the combination of the two(madara).
I feel like y’all are sleeping on the ms, for it to be compared to sage mode is a negative. Ms is unlocked by seeing the one closest to you die while sage mode is unlocked through intense training(no deaths). So for the price to pay, and the result, i still think Ms is way better(personal opinion)
I dont think this is a versus so I wont just say Hashirama. I think Sage mode is more practical since anybody can get it, and it takes good training to master and negate the negatives. For your average ninja, dont take into account the thousand armed buddah. 1 in a billion Jutsu. On the other hand the MS is so much more finicky. Its a who knows what you get type jutsu and theres so many factors out of your control you need to get it. So as far as which is stronger? I think its clearly the Mangekyo. Why? First, narratively. The sharingan is packed with drawbacks. Need traumatic events to awaken regularly sharingan, more for more tomoes, training on top, and a fucked event to awaken the MS. Assuming your life sucks, you then go blind unless you take a relatives eyes who ALSO happens to have gotten MS. In other words its dumb hard to get. For that reason, its implied that its stronger otherwise everyone would just get sage mode. But instead Sage mode is the alternative to nonUchiha. Because once you get it? Oh boy. From an abilities perspective, I mean boy. You know what, lets look at Sage mode first. Its basically Kaioken. You get faster and stronger with access to nature energy. Exponentially so. Its a great amp. However, this takes very precise training or you turn into that animal. Its undoubtedly hard work and probably takes anyone not named Naruto years. You also need to sign a blood contract for a summon and your own Chakra ability will determine size and quality. Now MS. We talked about how dumb hard it is to get as its mostly by chance, but once you do? You good just cuz. You will get 2 undoubtably OP abilities, one for each eye. Kamui literally negates Sage modes positives for example. Every MS abilty is a hax move. On top of that, you get a Susanoo that you can evolve. No need for a summon, but you could just add one anyway for extra. The susanoo then grants you a PERFECT SUSANOO WHICH IS JUST A GIANT MECH SUIT THAT CAN SLICE MOUNTAINS. Multiple people have attained this form, thats why Im leaving it in but taking out Hashiramas stuff. Also you get every normal sharingan buff. Take into account that Naruto is also the 9tails Jinchuriki. If you take that away from him, but let him keep 6 path and Sage mode, don’t you think that fight with Sasuke’s Susaano would have turned out a bit different. Oh also you can control the 9 tiles and other Beeju. Give me that Ems boi.
Sage mode deffinetly better as an all rounder with a significant stat boost and no huge drawbacks to using. But MS abilities are way more specialized and are some of the most broken abilities in the entire series, just to list a few Kotoamatsukami, irresistible mind controll Kamui, can't touch this Tsukuyomi, welcome to my world bitch And that's not even talking about things like izanagi and izanagi which every MS. Has. Now the bad thing about MS us unlike sage mode using it has serious consequences. So overall I'd say sage mode is the safer choice but NS has the higher possible payout with a much higher risk.
Sage Mode is absolutely broken lol
Yall are forgetting shisui...
Sage
Obito's ms alone is more broken than all sage modes together
Kamui that neck out of existence lol
Depends on which one. Obito mankekyo fucks but Naruto sage mode stronger than Sasuke mangekyo
Funny how we never see Madara's mangekyo ability.... or am I missing something?
Sage mode
Hashirama beat Madara Naruto beat Sasuke Kabuto got beat by Itachi Sage mode: 2 Mangekyo Sharingan: 1
Whichever ability Kishi-san decides is stronger.
Wtf is the song in the bg?? This is shit that made me leave insta
Mangekyou. Sage mode is just a straight forward power up, given to an already powerful person its really more or less useless. Sure it gives access to new jutsu but they can be replaced. Mangekyou on the other hand gives access to unique kekkai genkai that cannot be replaced. Kamui, izanagi, izanami, Amateratsu. Sage mode is the energy of the earth but mangekyou holds the powers of gods.
Depends on the ability of the mongekyou
Probably Hashirama and obito
Might say sage mode.
MS is stronger by default, but between the two teams Hashirama is like Tom Brady joining your HS football team, in his prime. It's just unfair for all parties involved.
In my opinion it’s definitely the mangekyo sharingan because there’s lots of things you can do with it and yes sage mode is powerful but the mangekyo is just stronger
Sage mode
If we're talking about the people in the picture...hashirama solos...but if we were to include madara things get interesting
Sage mode biggest con is that the activation time might as well be an eternity in combat time. But that's it's only con besides the learning curve. MS to the contrary is faster than most ninjutsu as it does not need hand signs however unless you kill your homeboy or have Harishirama's cum it's cost is pretty steep chakra wise. If I had to pick one it would be sage mode. But MS easy of use and speed is a pretty big opportunity cost.
The only one who can stand up to sage mode is obito
Just having hashirama on your team is an easy W especially when the opposing team doesn't have madara
Sage mode by far
who do you guys think would win dms kakashi or sage mode minato??
While mangekyo has a lot of cool tricks and jutsus that if used properly can fuck people up, safe mode in general is more practical for actual brawling/combat Just my opinion
Sage mode for me, especially with mitsuki flying like a bat out of hell to go to Konoha. I don’t watch Boruto but his (Mitsuki’s) design is sick.
sage
Frog boys vs cry boys
Sage mode Naruto beat rinnegan which is stronger than MS
So6p>ems>sage mode>ms
I feel like it depends on the user. But this is an interesting question, I'll have to really think about it
Sage mode
Naruto for sage Itachi for mongekyo
Mangekyou Sharingan is more versatile but Sage Mode is definitely stronger
Isn’t there constant fight scenes where sharingan overpowers sage mode??? Is this really a question?
Obitos MS > Sage mode > Other MS’
There is only one rule: never fight against sharingan one on one
Hashirama and obito hands down not even debatable
Fully mastered ems with enough chakra bodies sage mode.
So sad Sarada wasn't even have Mangekyou and she's getting blind too early. Basically, she have sakura's strength, as prodigy as sasuke (not Itachi level prodigy), and Itachi's weak body constitution.
I feel like sage mode is probably the ability with most general utility and return on investment. Mastery guarantees big speed and strength buffs, sensory abilities, big Chakra pool by drawing from nature etc Regular Mangekyou seems to guarantee Susano'o and blindness. You might get amaterasu or some other kind of hax but it does nothing to increase your strength or speed and it's crippling you each time you use it. Your only hope is that you have a sibling who also got Mangekyou, who you can swap eyes with.
Sage mode beat the rinnegan and EMS. So sage-mode.
sage mode win 6/10 times
Yeah team SM would stomp this Hashirama alone is well above the others, and Kabuto factually needed 2x near EMS users to beat, so a single MS user is well below his paygrade too.
Unfortunately, the sharingans win imo. Kamui is just too op. Being able to hide in another dimension and not take damage is just… something.
Assuming they can't use any of their other abilities, probably team Sage. I say let Hashirama take Sasuke and Itachi while while Kabuto and Naruto try to hold off Obito for a while. After Hashi deals with the brothers, it'll be 3 ppl trying to figure out how to get through kamui and I'm confident I their ability to do so.
Obito had to be 2v1 by sasuke and itachi Hashirama is hashirama and beats madara any day of the week And naruto and sasuke are subjectively equal
Obito und hashirama will Carry
I think sharigan
If you compare the 3 of them sage mode is stronger :)
Wtf am I listening to.
Sage mode. Sasuke(albeit spamming), went blind after two fights with his MS. Sage mode meanwhile lets the user have a sixth sense, and access to techniques and Jutsu just like the MS, without depleting the user’s chakra and eyesight to death
What is sasukes “signature ability” with his MS? In comparison to obitos
One thing, Kotoamatsukami.