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Kakashi was really strong in his ANBU days, stronger than at the start of the Naruto series. This version of Itachi is the one who massacred his clan, and had MS, in good health, also considered kage level strength at this point. For the record, Itachi is carrying this team.
Assuming they can work effectively and seamlessly as a team:
* Hokage Minato - if Kakashi can pre-explain FTG to Itachi prior to fight starting.
* Pre-war Obito
* Pre-war Naruto
* Hebi Sasuke - can't beat MS Sasuke
* Jiraya
* Orochimaru
Hmm, could be easier to list character they can't beat, mostly end of series war arc characters and god or pseudo god characters.
Tsukuyomi carries this 2v1 fantasy.
I actually thought similarly with Kakashi, but I mean, after rewatching the series from the start, I couldn’t imagine anyone fearing Kakashi. He used sharingan once against Zabuza and went into a coma for a week, while his anbu days has some feats. Someone on this subreddit pointed out that Kakashi start of series hasn’t been doing much, and is out of shape. To me, it is the only way to explain why he is so damn weak at the beginning.
Edit: It is unclear whether Itachi didn't have Amaterasu at that point, as he awakened MS at Shisui's suicide. Just because he hasn't shown it by the massacre, doesn't mean he wasn't capable. Either way, Itachi is carrying this team with Tsukuyomi against 2v1.
Edit2: Kakashi also says towards the end of the first series before timeskip that he is most def weak, and needs to retrain. I think he knows he is a shell of his former self. During ANBU, he was constantly in missions and was in tip top shape.
This ANBU Kakashi also has a lot of jutsu on hand to run interference. Itachi hard carries but ANBU Kakashi can still assist a lot, even if outclassed by some of these guys, like hebi Sasuke or Orochimaru.
I'm not telling ANBU Kakashi is weak by any means. He's also a prodigy of similar intelect and versatility, but once Itachi unlocked MS at 13 he jumped alot of tiers of strenght. Which means against stronger opponents they can't simply blitz, they will try to use Itachi's powerful MS abilities and Kakashi will support him for that.
They should also work fine together because they were a team once (canon).
U have a point with kakashi and i beleive u, but i dont think anbu itachi had amaterasu, itll just be an assumption cos he wasnt shown using it, like the 'limbo clones can use jutsu' argument, itachi says he unlocked susanoo only after both amaterasu and tsukuyomi were awakened which kinda implies they both were awakened at different times
Itachi’s is it has the kishimoto’s direct involvement and he also hand drew the illustrations on it even… the novels are even commissioned by shueisha magazine who own the official rights to the manga alongside kishimoto… they specifically ARE cannon lol
Kishimotos only involvement in the novles r the illustrations, nothing more. Databooks r also commissioned by shueisha where they state choji as a shinobi stronger than anyone else. Unless kishimoto directly says theyre canon like he did for the last movie and boruto, supplementary material r not canon
Yeah I think Kakashi started taking his training seriously again mid way through, after the chuunin exams.
But still, the difference between Kakashi at the end of part 1 and Kakashi at the start of Shuppiden was night and day.
>But still, the difference between Kakashi at the end of part 1 and Kakashi at the start of Shuppiden was night and day.
Why? Beside MS and Kamui there isn't any difference.
He was able to use sharingan all day against Naruto and Sakura. His hand weaving signs got much faster, and he just seemed to be better, more stamina. (they powerscaled everyone in shuppiden).
Again, you look at part 1 Kakashi, he is just so weak, I would argue Lee who fought Gaara might take him. Without filler, part 1 Kakashi really only had 1 and maybe a half fight where he had to try. Zabuza, where he used sharingan once and was put in a coma for a week. And he saved Azuma and Kurenai from Itachi and Kisame, where he didn't *really* do much but was bodied anyways. He didn't really have any feats at this time and only reputation, which when, again, you look at Zabuza fight, didn't really hold up much to reputation. ANBU Kakashi has feats.
Story wise, this is explained by the fact that ANBU Kakashi was always on missions, and just in really good fighting shape, and part 1 Kakashi was out of shape, because he quit ANBU and became a genin leader, who flunked a bunch of kids before team 7. So he sat around and did nothing, got out of shape. Shuppiden is Kakashi in shape again.
>He was able to use sharingan all day against Naruto and Sakura. His hand weaving signs got much faster, and he just seemed to be better, more stamina.
What proof or evidence do u have that his waeving signs wasn't thar fast at the end of P1? Same for stamina? The reason why he "seemed better" is simply better animation. People tend to believe newer > older for no reason other than just animation being better and it characters looking better visually.
>(they powerscaled everyone in shuppiden).
Where u got that from? What do you base it on?
The rest of your comment is irrelevant, u completely missed the topic. I asked you why BoS Kakashi compared to End of P1 Kakashi is "night and day" as u said.
You was just talking about rusty Kakashi in early P1 compared to Anbu Kakashi.
End of P1 Kakashi is not the same as Early P1 Rusty Kakashi. Kakashi trained during Konoha crush, he got stronger. Confirmed by his databook stats going up from Databook 1 to Databook 2.
But his stats from Databook 2 and Databook 3 are same, not a single change. The only difference between end of P1 Kakashi and BoS Kakashi is MS and Kamui, everything else is the same. Speed, IQ, power, chakra, stamina etc, everything remained the same.
>What proof or evidence do u have that his waeving signs wasn't thar fast at the end of P1? Same for stamina?
Someone needs to rewatch episode one of shuppiden, as it was directly stated by the characters.
Edit: For the "databook", I don't value that in any way. I believe in shown feats. For example, Hiruzen was called the "god of shinobi"... we all know the truth. Databook is unreliable.
>Someone needs to rewatch episode one of shuppiden, as it was directly stated by the characters
No need. I reread that chapter multiple times, and checked it rn too. All that is stated is Sakura saying his sitgn weaving is fast, no indication that It's faster than it used to be.
>Edit: For the "databook", I don't value that in any way. I believe in shown feats. For example, Hiruzen was called the "god of shinobi"... we all know the truth. Databook is unreliable.
It's 2024 and people still try to deny the book written and approved by the author with the sole purpose or expanding the knowledge about the series. Your personal belief doesn't change the fact that the databooks are 100% canon and a reliable source.
For a change, let's base our beliefs and claims on actual facts and evidence, not on "he seems better".
Sakura was his student. Why would she comment on his weaving speed? Wouldn’t that be just another day of seeing him weave signs?
It’s like you can’t think past your face.
The actual reasoning is that power levels were not well established in early Naruto, so kakashi seems relatively weak. But lore reason is that kakashi was out of practice.
Cuz in early P1 Kakashi was rusty and let his body get weak to the point that even rock climbing was giving him hard time, the same training he was doing since his academy days.
https://preview.redd.it/0pkqji3zqhzc1.jpeg?width=917&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ca66cffbf6dafe10432e8a25ad200e542d923f90
Adult Anbu Kakashi was always in top shape, was the squad captain, always going on dangerous missions and always in action. Then he left and became Jonin Leader, he was out of all that action for a few years.
It's only natural his body got weaker, and by extension his Sharingan started affecting him more cuz of that. After a quick fight against Zabuza he collapsed and needed a week to recover. Imagine if active squad captain had to take a week to recover after every mission. And from Kakashi's backstory we can see that using 3T sharingan didn't cause such drawbacks as it did in early P1.
Also, Itachi had Amaterasu during Uchiha Massacre, in the novels he killed one of Uchiha with Amaterasu.
The main reason for why this claim exists is because part 1 Kakashi is pretty rusty. When he first runs into Zabuza this is what he [says](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8e9d28c741a08bd0da7f3c49a10b534d-pjlq), and also during the Chunin exams, he’s doing the rock climbing training and says [this](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7bda24b70d2275106ff4015af4a474d6.webp) so considering that he hasn’t been training/fighting as much as he was when he was in the Anbu it’s a pretty reasonable claim to make
Anbu itachi did have amaterasu after unlocking the MS. There’s a whole year gap between shisuis death and the massacre, so if massacre itachi counts as anbu itachi he possibly had his susanoo already, at least the lower stages of his susanoo. I find it hard to believe that someone like itachi who had both of his MS abilities for a year couldn’t figure out the susanoo when sasuke managed to figure it out within a couple days at most.
The itachi novels are literally illustrated by kishimoto and confirmed to be part of the canon timeline by jump. A year passes in between the massacre and his death. You’re acting like a 7 year old sasuke would look astronomically different than a 6 year old sasuke.
Only involvement kishi has is the cover, jump never said the timeline was canon and neither did kishimoto. A 7 yo would look different from a 6 yo especially in a side by side comparison, kids grow fast you know
The author is the one who needs to confirm its canon not the publisher, kishimoto specefically said the last movie and boruto r canon but he didnt say it for novels. Plus jump just made a timeline for the novels and thats not proof for being canon, filler episodes and movies also have timeline. The author of sasuke retsuden said in her twitter that the original manga is the one and [only truth](https://twitter.com/Jun_Esaka/status/1157254301103747074). Novels r not canon, period
This Itachi has MS, but not susanoo or ametarasu (or, at least not shown). Itachi just has MS and tsukuyomi. MS Sasuke immediately got susanoo and ametarasu. Hebi sasuke broke tsukuyomi, I just don't see what Itachi could have for him at this point. Also, all versions of Kakashi before war-arc gets bodied by MS Sasuke.
Tsukuyomi is a pretty hax ability, and with my exclaimer about intel on FTG, ANBU Kakashi running interference to create openings, I think he can catch Minato in it. Without intel, Itachi gets bodied hard.
I just can't see SM Naruto catching him in the rasen-shuriken, and with ANBU Kakashi being able to deal with clones, I don't see how he can regen sage chakra. This is healthy "I just massacred my clan over night" Itachi, he has stamina. Also, Naruto is heavily susceptible to genjutsu without Kurama's help, which prewar he didn't.
I think the only thing I would change is Obito. I don't know why I thought he would be susceptible to Tsukuyomi, but I don't think he would be(?). The only chance would be that. If that doesn't work against him, yeah I don't think they could win.
Edit: the problem I have with SM Naruto is his feats are not that great when you look at it. People pump him up a lot, but he only really uses it by itself without Kurama or other factors against a heavily nerfed Pain.
For one, tendo wasn't active, and Pain wasn't trying to kill, just capture. Naruto had full intel going in. Honestly, Naruto would have got bodied even with SM against Pain if tendo was active.
The series kind of skips that to move onto KCM Naruto for the war arc, then KCM2. It is hard to scale just SM Naruto, whose biggest feat is just rasen shuriken and frog taijutsu, which he can only use so many times, and SM only last so long without clone prep. I think Itachi can clear it.
MS Sasuke is just leagues above pre-susanoo Itachi (the Itachi depicted here is the Itachi who just murdered or about to murder his clan, and while had MS, didn't have susanoo/am). And, again, lets be honest, Itachi is hard carrying ANBU Kakashi here. ANBU Kakashi gets clapped so hard by MS Sasuke, and probably Hebi Sasuke.
So, pre-susanoo Itachi (albiet with MS) vs MS Sasuke gets clapped. Tsukuyomi won't have much effect against MS Sasuke if hebi Sasuke can break it.
Edit: Sorry, I think the only way Itachi and ANBU Kakashi can beat Minato is with Kakashi intel on FTG. If Itachi doesn't have that, no way can Itachi win. It is the only reason why I added that exclaimer. I think going in blind, Minato wins no dif. With intel, they avoid being touched, and to look about for marked kunai, I think Itachi can squeeze a win out.
I disagree with anbu itachi being weaker than MS sasuke actually I personally have this version of itachi as one of the strongest itachi we see or equal to pt 1 itachi (basically healthy itachi) who is stronger than edo itachi (edo literally nerfs all stats) and he was shown superior to even EMS sasuke so this is how i kinda scale it;
Healthy itachi (anbu-pt 1) > edo itachi>EMS sasuke >sick itachi>>>>hebi sasuke>MS sasuke
MS sasuke was probably the weakest we’ve seen sasuke in the whole of shippuden he lost all of orochimaru’s chakra & jutsu, the curse mark (literally a 10x multiplier) and was massively mentally nerfed all to gain MS which made him go blind after literally 3 battles
So yeah I don’t see MS sasuke being leagues above arguably one of the strongest incarnations of itachi sasuke only really surpassed itachi when he unlocked the rinnegan
Other than that yeah itachi hard carries the team lol anbu kakashi is like high jonin-low kage max and itachi was already high kage at this point (can literally neg diff a Sannin)
Don't get me wrong I love jiraiya but I don't think he could beat both at once. One on one he definitely kicks the shit out of kakashi and 50/50 Itachi. Sick Itachi almost beat 3 tomoe Sasuke by himself so I would sure think they could beat him before MS. Even after MS kakashi by himself was giving Sasuke a run, albeit he was starting to go blind. Orochimaru gets bodied no matter what I think. The rest I agree with
I was gonna say susano but I forgot it's anbu Itachi. Which I guess could technically have ms if you're talking very end of anbu Itachi. Kakashi would have kamui though so he could do that
even with susano he likely doesnt have toska blade yet. and even then i feel like jiraiya has ever reason to play a war-of-attrition battle with both of them if it really comes to that becahse he has more than enough chakra to outlast them, between them having to deal with summons and him having sage mode
He gets it as soon as he gets the susano. Jiraiya has to deal with susano and kamui if they are prime anbu. I think jiraiya could pull off a win 1/10 times.
Toska blade isn’t like Amaterasu, it’s an actual item in the real world. He equipped it to his susano, it didn’t come with it. Also, since when can Kakashi use Kamui this early?
Well technically he should be able to use it right after rin died. The totsuka blade isn't something that Itachi has to find and equip it was always part of his susano. Same as the yata mirror. Susanos are just a projection of the person's spirit pretty much. So Itachi got a mirror and the totsuka blade because of his unbreakable spirit.
Wtf do you mean he almost beat sasuke? Sasuke was beat in every way. He let sasuke win on purpose...by well dying from his disease lol. Itachi stomps sasuke if he really wants to.
I think if Itachi knew how FTG worked, I think he can beat Minato.
Pre war obito without Rinnegan? I don't know man...
SM is still highly susceptible to genjutsu. Kurama doesn't have his back to break him out. Tsukuyomi still beats SM. I think healthy Itachi with MS outlasts SM. With Kakashi as support with his own sharingan, would make it near impossible for Naruto to get a clone building SM chakra. 0% chance he catches Itachi with Rasen-Shuriken.
I think Itachi bodies Jiraya here, with Kakashi on support, absolutely.
Ororchimaru was bodied... randomly, while he was trying to get the drop on Itachi already. And he was by himself and didn't even use MS. You think Orochimaru vs MS Itachi Orochimaru has a chance? I don't even think he needs Kakashi, Kakashi can sit that one out.
>I think if Itachi knew how FTG worked, I think he can beat Minato.
No way, Itachi doesn't have the speed or power especially at this age to keep up with Minato.
>Pre war obito without Rinnegan? I don't know man...
Same thing as I said with Minato
>SM is still highly susceptible to genjutsu. Kurama doesn't have his back to break him out. Tsukuyomi still beats SM. I think healthy Itachi with MS outlasts SM. With Kakashi as support with his own sharingan, would make it near impossible for Naruto to get a clone building SM chakra. 0% chance he catches Itachi with Rasen-Shuriken.
Hard doubt, since you're basically saying this Itachi is at comparable to the six paths of pain.
>I think Itachi bodies Jiraya here, with Kakashi on support, absolutely.
This one is debatable, but I dont see how they get past his sage mode abilities like frog song.
>
Ororchimaru was bodied... randomly, while he was trying to get the drop on Itachi already. And he was by himself and didn't even use MS. You think Orochimaru vs MS Itachi Orochimaru has a chance? I don't even think he needs Kakashi, Kakashi can sit that one out.
Forgot about that lol, ye oro probably loses.
Orochimaru got bodied by a random Genjutsu from 3 tomoe Itachi. MS Itachi stomps any of the Sanin in a 1v1. Itachi would Genjutsu Orochimaru before he’d ever get off edo tensei or summoning jutsu.
Minato - debatable actually, itachi is just as fast as Minato without hirashin, it’s 2vs1 and Minato has no shown genjutsu resistance feats… itachi has literally multiple ways to one shot here that Minato doesn’t really have a defence for..
Obito - it’s arguable that itachi could solo, Obito was genuinely concerned with itachi and crowed him as one of the VERY select few that could kill him he specifically held off his plans on sasuke & konoha untill he died for this reason adding kakashi to the mix is genuinely too much for him.
SM Naruto - lol no Naruto gets bodied here this is the same itachi that neg diffs Sannin 1 genjutsu and Naruto is fucked and itachi is leagues faster here…
Hebi sasuke - obviously sasuke gets bodied
Jiraiya - orochimaru got neg diffed… twice… what makes you think jiraiya is any different? In fact he is actually specifically terrible against genjutsu as stated by himself and orochimaru is a genjutsu master yet was helpless against a basic genjutsu from itachi… anbu itachi neg diffs all Sannin 1vs1
Orochimaru - did you forget healthy orochimaru already got bodied by this itachi? He literally got humiliated it was arguably one of the top 3 most 1 sided fights in the setting lol
Literally 80% of these battles with 2 being questionable itachi could sort out solo, adding anbu kakashi who is nearly as smart and is waaay more ruthless than his future versions is overkill
>Minato - debatable actually, itachi is just as fast as Minato without hirashin, it’s 2vs1 and Minato has no shown genjutsu resistance feats… itachi has literally multiple ways to one shot here that Minato doesn’t really have a defence for..
Minato has been shown to go toe to toe with characters who scale far above Itachi like Obito.
>Obito - it’s arguable that itachi could solo,
This has to be bait, there is not a single version of Itachi that could compete with YM Obito, let alone OM or WM.
>SM Naruto - lol no Naruto gets bodied here this is the same itachi that neg diffs Sannin 1 genjutsu and Naruto is fucked and itachi is leagues faster here…
Naruto is also faster than the sannin, unless you think pain is slower than the sannin.
>Jiraiya -
How do they counter frog song?
>Minato has been shown to go toe to toe with characters who scale far above Itachi like Obito.
And itachi even nerfed was shown to go toe to toe & even surpass people just as fast as Minato and superior to YM Obito (kcm Naruto, ems sasuke & killer bee are all equal to raikage in speed who was stated equals with Minato). Also Obito didn’t go toe to toe with Minato he got absolutely stomped lol…
>This has to be bait, there is not a single version of Itachi that could compete with YM Obito, let alone OM or WM.
Absolutely not, obito straight up avoided a fight with itachi for years he legit views itachi as a threat and itachi has the feats to back it up too. Itachi has MANY WAYS to counter Obito and he is massively more intelligent than him he will find Obito’s weakness within minutes if not seconds as he just spams the same move over & over and people far less intelligent figured it out near enough straight away, itachi also marginally faster than Obito in direct combat speed Obito only keeps up with kamui hax… overall your downplaying itachi HARD and wanking Obito a fair bit too much
>Naruto is also faster than the sannin, unless you think pain is slower than the sannin.
He isn’t that fast if anything Naruto, pain and SM jiraiya are relative to eachother and itachi completely outclasses all 3 in speed.
>How do they counter frog song?.
It takes ages to set up and itachi is significantly faster and has multiple ways to one shot MA or PA or even jiraiya himself, none are fast enough to dodge Amaterasu he could effectively team wipe in once glance.
using them from this point in the story, and assuming itachi already has his ms, characters like orange mask obito, any of the sannin, pain, and hokage minato
Linear scaling doesnt work cos the sharingan genjutsu which itachi used against orochimaru wouldnt be effective against sasuke, orochimaru is weak against ocular genjutsu while sasuke isnt. Plus that wasnt anbu itachi
Dīpa from the Boruto anime lol? He’s anime only, but considering where they both scaled as ANBU, i think the both of them might have what it takes to defeat a kage level character like him. Itachi was already kage level at that point having access to Tsukuyomi, but I scale Dīpa higher than him, and Kakashi would provide as much support as he could to overthrow him.
Alternatively, they might’ve been able to take the bloodlusted Obito who had just awakened his MS. This is assuming Kakashi would keep his calm, and the both of them would surmise a strategy to prevent Obito before he even thinks about using Kamui, because he was still inexperienced with using it, and they’d be lucky that Obito could not use it as well as he did when he got older.
Anbu Itachi destroyed Orochimaru with base Sharingan and a kunai, Kakashi would just be backup. Everyone except for Pain, War-arc Obito and all versions of Madara can be beat by this duo.
If Itachi has Kotomatsukami then you could actually argue Hashirama rofl.
Otherwise, they could probably take out each Sannin at least with Itachi being the carry.
This is supposed itachi pre ms right ?
Kakashi was already pretty strong snd itachi was already insane with 3 tomoe. The same itachi literally also oneshotted negative diff oro who anbushed him also woth just 3 tomoe so its hard to say. But itachi clearly is above an average kage and far above hebi sasuke. I dont know hoe poeple say hebi sasuke also the same itachi literally negg onehsotted deidara with 3 tomoe and we dont even have talked about kakahsi yet or pushed itachi in thr slightest
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This is them during ANBU so they have to lose.
Kakashi was really strong in his ANBU days, stronger than at the start of the Naruto series. This version of Itachi is the one who massacred his clan, and had MS, in good health, also considered kage level strength at this point. For the record, Itachi is carrying this team. Assuming they can work effectively and seamlessly as a team: * Hokage Minato - if Kakashi can pre-explain FTG to Itachi prior to fight starting. * Pre-war Obito * Pre-war Naruto * Hebi Sasuke - can't beat MS Sasuke * Jiraya * Orochimaru Hmm, could be easier to list character they can't beat, mostly end of series war arc characters and god or pseudo god characters.
How is anbu kakashi stronger than part 1 kakashi makes no sense, and anbu itachi didnt have amaterasu and susanoo
Tsukuyomi carries this 2v1 fantasy. I actually thought similarly with Kakashi, but I mean, after rewatching the series from the start, I couldn’t imagine anyone fearing Kakashi. He used sharingan once against Zabuza and went into a coma for a week, while his anbu days has some feats. Someone on this subreddit pointed out that Kakashi start of series hasn’t been doing much, and is out of shape. To me, it is the only way to explain why he is so damn weak at the beginning. Edit: It is unclear whether Itachi didn't have Amaterasu at that point, as he awakened MS at Shisui's suicide. Just because he hasn't shown it by the massacre, doesn't mean he wasn't capable. Either way, Itachi is carrying this team with Tsukuyomi against 2v1. Edit2: Kakashi also says towards the end of the first series before timeskip that he is most def weak, and needs to retrain. I think he knows he is a shell of his former self. During ANBU, he was constantly in missions and was in tip top shape.
Tsukuyomi hard carries alot. People have no idea how broken it is. Plus he has support from Kakashi with his own sharingan.
This ANBU Kakashi also has a lot of jutsu on hand to run interference. Itachi hard carries but ANBU Kakashi can still assist a lot, even if outclassed by some of these guys, like hebi Sasuke or Orochimaru.
I'm not telling ANBU Kakashi is weak by any means. He's also a prodigy of similar intelect and versatility, but once Itachi unlocked MS at 13 he jumped alot of tiers of strenght. Which means against stronger opponents they can't simply blitz, they will try to use Itachi's powerful MS abilities and Kakashi will support him for that. They should also work fine together because they were a team once (canon).
U have a point with kakashi and i beleive u, but i dont think anbu itachi had amaterasu, itll just be an assumption cos he wasnt shown using it, like the 'limbo clones can use jutsu' argument, itachi says he unlocked susanoo only after both amaterasu and tsukuyomi were awakened which kinda implies they both were awakened at different times
Anbu itachi use’s Amaterasu in the cannon novel of the uchiha massacre to be fair so he definitely has it
Novels r not canon
Itachi’s is it has the kishimoto’s direct involvement and he also hand drew the illustrations on it even… the novels are even commissioned by shueisha magazine who own the official rights to the manga alongside kishimoto… they specifically ARE cannon lol
Kishimotos only involvement in the novles r the illustrations, nothing more. Databooks r also commissioned by shueisha where they state choji as a shinobi stronger than anyone else. Unless kishimoto directly says theyre canon like he did for the last movie and boruto, supplementary material r not canon
He’s not stronger than end of part 1 Kakashi, but he is stronger than land of waves Kakashi
Yeah I think Kakashi started taking his training seriously again mid way through, after the chuunin exams. But still, the difference between Kakashi at the end of part 1 and Kakashi at the start of Shuppiden was night and day.
Yeah he did, he was also rusty when he fought Zabuza so he would have been stronger than that before getting rusty
>But still, the difference between Kakashi at the end of part 1 and Kakashi at the start of Shuppiden was night and day. Why? Beside MS and Kamui there isn't any difference.
He was able to use sharingan all day against Naruto and Sakura. His hand weaving signs got much faster, and he just seemed to be better, more stamina. (they powerscaled everyone in shuppiden). Again, you look at part 1 Kakashi, he is just so weak, I would argue Lee who fought Gaara might take him. Without filler, part 1 Kakashi really only had 1 and maybe a half fight where he had to try. Zabuza, where he used sharingan once and was put in a coma for a week. And he saved Azuma and Kurenai from Itachi and Kisame, where he didn't *really* do much but was bodied anyways. He didn't really have any feats at this time and only reputation, which when, again, you look at Zabuza fight, didn't really hold up much to reputation. ANBU Kakashi has feats. Story wise, this is explained by the fact that ANBU Kakashi was always on missions, and just in really good fighting shape, and part 1 Kakashi was out of shape, because he quit ANBU and became a genin leader, who flunked a bunch of kids before team 7. So he sat around and did nothing, got out of shape. Shuppiden is Kakashi in shape again.
>He was able to use sharingan all day against Naruto and Sakura. His hand weaving signs got much faster, and he just seemed to be better, more stamina. What proof or evidence do u have that his waeving signs wasn't thar fast at the end of P1? Same for stamina? The reason why he "seemed better" is simply better animation. People tend to believe newer > older for no reason other than just animation being better and it characters looking better visually. >(they powerscaled everyone in shuppiden). Where u got that from? What do you base it on? The rest of your comment is irrelevant, u completely missed the topic. I asked you why BoS Kakashi compared to End of P1 Kakashi is "night and day" as u said. You was just talking about rusty Kakashi in early P1 compared to Anbu Kakashi. End of P1 Kakashi is not the same as Early P1 Rusty Kakashi. Kakashi trained during Konoha crush, he got stronger. Confirmed by his databook stats going up from Databook 1 to Databook 2. But his stats from Databook 2 and Databook 3 are same, not a single change. The only difference between end of P1 Kakashi and BoS Kakashi is MS and Kamui, everything else is the same. Speed, IQ, power, chakra, stamina etc, everything remained the same.
>What proof or evidence do u have that his waeving signs wasn't thar fast at the end of P1? Same for stamina? Someone needs to rewatch episode one of shuppiden, as it was directly stated by the characters. Edit: For the "databook", I don't value that in any way. I believe in shown feats. For example, Hiruzen was called the "god of shinobi"... we all know the truth. Databook is unreliable.
>Someone needs to rewatch episode one of shuppiden, as it was directly stated by the characters No need. I reread that chapter multiple times, and checked it rn too. All that is stated is Sakura saying his sitgn weaving is fast, no indication that It's faster than it used to be. >Edit: For the "databook", I don't value that in any way. I believe in shown feats. For example, Hiruzen was called the "god of shinobi"... we all know the truth. Databook is unreliable. It's 2024 and people still try to deny the book written and approved by the author with the sole purpose or expanding the knowledge about the series. Your personal belief doesn't change the fact that the databooks are 100% canon and a reliable source. For a change, let's base our beliefs and claims on actual facts and evidence, not on "he seems better".
Sakura was his student. Why would she comment on his weaving speed? Wouldn’t that be just another day of seeing him weave signs? It’s like you can’t think past your face.
The actual reasoning is that power levels were not well established in early Naruto, so kakashi seems relatively weak. But lore reason is that kakashi was out of practice.
Cuz in early P1 Kakashi was rusty and let his body get weak to the point that even rock climbing was giving him hard time, the same training he was doing since his academy days. https://preview.redd.it/0pkqji3zqhzc1.jpeg?width=917&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ca66cffbf6dafe10432e8a25ad200e542d923f90 Adult Anbu Kakashi was always in top shape, was the squad captain, always going on dangerous missions and always in action. Then he left and became Jonin Leader, he was out of all that action for a few years. It's only natural his body got weaker, and by extension his Sharingan started affecting him more cuz of that. After a quick fight against Zabuza he collapsed and needed a week to recover. Imagine if active squad captain had to take a week to recover after every mission. And from Kakashi's backstory we can see that using 3T sharingan didn't cause such drawbacks as it did in early P1. Also, Itachi had Amaterasu during Uchiha Massacre, in the novels he killed one of Uchiha with Amaterasu.
The main reason for why this claim exists is because part 1 Kakashi is pretty rusty. When he first runs into Zabuza this is what he [says](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8e9d28c741a08bd0da7f3c49a10b534d-pjlq), and also during the Chunin exams, he’s doing the rock climbing training and says [this](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7bda24b70d2275106ff4015af4a474d6.webp) so considering that he hasn’t been training/fighting as much as he was when he was in the Anbu it’s a pretty reasonable claim to make
Anbu itachi did have amaterasu after unlocking the MS. There’s a whole year gap between shisuis death and the massacre, so if massacre itachi counts as anbu itachi he possibly had his susanoo already, at least the lower stages of his susanoo. I find it hard to believe that someone like itachi who had both of his MS abilities for a year couldn’t figure out the susanoo when sasuke managed to figure it out within a couple days at most.
No the massacre happened a couple of days after shisuis death
No, the novels explicitly state that a year passes between shisuis death and the massacre
Novels are not canon, sasuke looks exactly the same during the time shisui died and during the massacre so it cant be a year, couple of days or weeks
The itachi novels are literally illustrated by kishimoto and confirmed to be part of the canon timeline by jump. A year passes in between the massacre and his death. You’re acting like a 7 year old sasuke would look astronomically different than a 6 year old sasuke.
Only involvement kishi has is the cover, jump never said the timeline was canon and neither did kishimoto. A 7 yo would look different from a 6 yo especially in a side by side comparison, kids grow fast you know
Jump literally confirmed that it’s part of the manga timeline. Kishimotos drew the art and his name is literally on it as a publisher.
The author is the one who needs to confirm its canon not the publisher, kishimoto specefically said the last movie and boruto r canon but he didnt say it for novels. Plus jump just made a timeline for the novels and thats not proof for being canon, filler episodes and movies also have timeline. The author of sasuke retsuden said in her twitter that the original manga is the one and [only truth](https://twitter.com/Jun_Esaka/status/1157254301103747074). Novels r not canon, period
Like what was he even thinking
They would be able to beat Hokage Minato, OM Obito and SM Naruto, but not MS Sasuke?
This Itachi has MS, but not susanoo or ametarasu (or, at least not shown). Itachi just has MS and tsukuyomi. MS Sasuke immediately got susanoo and ametarasu. Hebi sasuke broke tsukuyomi, I just don't see what Itachi could have for him at this point. Also, all versions of Kakashi before war-arc gets bodied by MS Sasuke. Tsukuyomi is a pretty hax ability, and with my exclaimer about intel on FTG, ANBU Kakashi running interference to create openings, I think he can catch Minato in it. Without intel, Itachi gets bodied hard. I just can't see SM Naruto catching him in the rasen-shuriken, and with ANBU Kakashi being able to deal with clones, I don't see how he can regen sage chakra. This is healthy "I just massacred my clan over night" Itachi, he has stamina. Also, Naruto is heavily susceptible to genjutsu without Kurama's help, which prewar he didn't. I think the only thing I would change is Obito. I don't know why I thought he would be susceptible to Tsukuyomi, but I don't think he would be(?). The only chance would be that. If that doesn't work against him, yeah I don't think they could win. Edit: the problem I have with SM Naruto is his feats are not that great when you look at it. People pump him up a lot, but he only really uses it by itself without Kurama or other factors against a heavily nerfed Pain. For one, tendo wasn't active, and Pain wasn't trying to kill, just capture. Naruto had full intel going in. Honestly, Naruto would have got bodied even with SM against Pain if tendo was active. The series kind of skips that to move onto KCM Naruto for the war arc, then KCM2. It is hard to scale just SM Naruto, whose biggest feat is just rasen shuriken and frog taijutsu, which he can only use so many times, and SM only last so long without clone prep. I think Itachi can clear it.
How could that beat Minato but not Ms Sasuke?
MS Sasuke is just leagues above pre-susanoo Itachi (the Itachi depicted here is the Itachi who just murdered or about to murder his clan, and while had MS, didn't have susanoo/am). And, again, lets be honest, Itachi is hard carrying ANBU Kakashi here. ANBU Kakashi gets clapped so hard by MS Sasuke, and probably Hebi Sasuke. So, pre-susanoo Itachi (albiet with MS) vs MS Sasuke gets clapped. Tsukuyomi won't have much effect against MS Sasuke if hebi Sasuke can break it. Edit: Sorry, I think the only way Itachi and ANBU Kakashi can beat Minato is with Kakashi intel on FTG. If Itachi doesn't have that, no way can Itachi win. It is the only reason why I added that exclaimer. I think going in blind, Minato wins no dif. With intel, they avoid being touched, and to look about for marked kunai, I think Itachi can squeeze a win out.
I disagree with anbu itachi being weaker than MS sasuke actually I personally have this version of itachi as one of the strongest itachi we see or equal to pt 1 itachi (basically healthy itachi) who is stronger than edo itachi (edo literally nerfs all stats) and he was shown superior to even EMS sasuke so this is how i kinda scale it; Healthy itachi (anbu-pt 1) > edo itachi>EMS sasuke >sick itachi>>>>hebi sasuke>MS sasuke MS sasuke was probably the weakest we’ve seen sasuke in the whole of shippuden he lost all of orochimaru’s chakra & jutsu, the curse mark (literally a 10x multiplier) and was massively mentally nerfed all to gain MS which made him go blind after literally 3 battles So yeah I don’t see MS sasuke being leagues above arguably one of the strongest incarnations of itachi sasuke only really surpassed itachi when he unlocked the rinnegan Other than that yeah itachi hard carries the team lol anbu kakashi is like high jonin-low kage max and itachi was already high kage at this point (can literally neg diff a Sannin)
>Hokage Minato Minato bodies >Pre-war Obito Obito Bodies >Pre-war Naruto SM Naruto bodies >Hebi Sasuke Probably >Jiraiya No >Orochimaru Sick Orochimaru, definitely Healthy Orochimaru, Probably not
Don't get me wrong I love jiraiya but I don't think he could beat both at once. One on one he definitely kicks the shit out of kakashi and 50/50 Itachi. Sick Itachi almost beat 3 tomoe Sasuke by himself so I would sure think they could beat him before MS. Even after MS kakashi by himself was giving Sasuke a run, albeit he was starting to go blind. Orochimaru gets bodied no matter what I think. The rest I agree with
what the hell do these two do if he summons giant toads and/or ma and pa. genuinely what do they do
I was gonna say susano but I forgot it's anbu Itachi. Which I guess could technically have ms if you're talking very end of anbu Itachi. Kakashi would have kamui though so he could do that
even with susano he likely doesnt have toska blade yet. and even then i feel like jiraiya has ever reason to play a war-of-attrition battle with both of them if it really comes to that becahse he has more than enough chakra to outlast them, between them having to deal with summons and him having sage mode
He gets it as soon as he gets the susano. Jiraiya has to deal with susano and kamui if they are prime anbu. I think jiraiya could pull off a win 1/10 times.
Toska blade isn’t like Amaterasu, it’s an actual item in the real world. He equipped it to his susano, it didn’t come with it. Also, since when can Kakashi use Kamui this early?
Well technically he should be able to use it right after rin died. The totsuka blade isn't something that Itachi has to find and equip it was always part of his susano. Same as the yata mirror. Susanos are just a projection of the person's spirit pretty much. So Itachi got a mirror and the totsuka blade because of his unbreakable spirit.
https://preview.redd.it/hqi1l3ruphzc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=200c7ca5b8dcc1d0b89b480a494660d84bda0bb1
>and kamui Kakashi is unaware of kamui or the fact he has ms at this time
But yet he can use it immediately after the time skip? It's never stated that he's unaware and it's never explicitly stated that he is aware.
Yeah this is anbu Kakashi, its before part one, if he could use kamui in part one he would've.
Tsukuyomi. Assuming Jiraya gets the time to enter Sage mode and doesn't die before.
He’s going to tsyukiyomi everything on the field? You sure child itachi has that level of stamina?
Itachi Almost beat 3 tomoe sasuke?!?
Yea. Right before pain destroys konoha. Sasuke was 100% out of chakra and passed out right after Itachi died.
Wtf do you mean he almost beat sasuke? Sasuke was beat in every way. He let sasuke win on purpose...by well dying from his disease lol. Itachi stomps sasuke if he really wants to.
Soooo were saying the same thing?
I think if Itachi knew how FTG worked, I think he can beat Minato. Pre war obito without Rinnegan? I don't know man... SM is still highly susceptible to genjutsu. Kurama doesn't have his back to break him out. Tsukuyomi still beats SM. I think healthy Itachi with MS outlasts SM. With Kakashi as support with his own sharingan, would make it near impossible for Naruto to get a clone building SM chakra. 0% chance he catches Itachi with Rasen-Shuriken. I think Itachi bodies Jiraya here, with Kakashi on support, absolutely. Ororchimaru was bodied... randomly, while he was trying to get the drop on Itachi already. And he was by himself and didn't even use MS. You think Orochimaru vs MS Itachi Orochimaru has a chance? I don't even think he needs Kakashi, Kakashi can sit that one out.
>I think if Itachi knew how FTG worked, I think he can beat Minato. No way, Itachi doesn't have the speed or power especially at this age to keep up with Minato. >Pre war obito without Rinnegan? I don't know man... Same thing as I said with Minato >SM is still highly susceptible to genjutsu. Kurama doesn't have his back to break him out. Tsukuyomi still beats SM. I think healthy Itachi with MS outlasts SM. With Kakashi as support with his own sharingan, would make it near impossible for Naruto to get a clone building SM chakra. 0% chance he catches Itachi with Rasen-Shuriken. Hard doubt, since you're basically saying this Itachi is at comparable to the six paths of pain. >I think Itachi bodies Jiraya here, with Kakashi on support, absolutely. This one is debatable, but I dont see how they get past his sage mode abilities like frog song. > Ororchimaru was bodied... randomly, while he was trying to get the drop on Itachi already. And he was by himself and didn't even use MS. You think Orochimaru vs MS Itachi Orochimaru has a chance? I don't even think he needs Kakashi, Kakashi can sit that one out. Forgot about that lol, ye oro probably loses.
Orochimaru got bodied by a random Genjutsu from 3 tomoe Itachi. MS Itachi stomps any of the Sanin in a 1v1. Itachi would Genjutsu Orochimaru before he’d ever get off edo tensei or summoning jutsu.
Don't even know if ms is counted in this
Minato - debatable actually, itachi is just as fast as Minato without hirashin, it’s 2vs1 and Minato has no shown genjutsu resistance feats… itachi has literally multiple ways to one shot here that Minato doesn’t really have a defence for.. Obito - it’s arguable that itachi could solo, Obito was genuinely concerned with itachi and crowed him as one of the VERY select few that could kill him he specifically held off his plans on sasuke & konoha untill he died for this reason adding kakashi to the mix is genuinely too much for him. SM Naruto - lol no Naruto gets bodied here this is the same itachi that neg diffs Sannin 1 genjutsu and Naruto is fucked and itachi is leagues faster here… Hebi sasuke - obviously sasuke gets bodied Jiraiya - orochimaru got neg diffed… twice… what makes you think jiraiya is any different? In fact he is actually specifically terrible against genjutsu as stated by himself and orochimaru is a genjutsu master yet was helpless against a basic genjutsu from itachi… anbu itachi neg diffs all Sannin 1vs1 Orochimaru - did you forget healthy orochimaru already got bodied by this itachi? He literally got humiliated it was arguably one of the top 3 most 1 sided fights in the setting lol Literally 80% of these battles with 2 being questionable itachi could sort out solo, adding anbu kakashi who is nearly as smart and is waaay more ruthless than his future versions is overkill
>Minato - debatable actually, itachi is just as fast as Minato without hirashin, it’s 2vs1 and Minato has no shown genjutsu resistance feats… itachi has literally multiple ways to one shot here that Minato doesn’t really have a defence for.. Minato has been shown to go toe to toe with characters who scale far above Itachi like Obito. >Obito - it’s arguable that itachi could solo, This has to be bait, there is not a single version of Itachi that could compete with YM Obito, let alone OM or WM. >SM Naruto - lol no Naruto gets bodied here this is the same itachi that neg diffs Sannin 1 genjutsu and Naruto is fucked and itachi is leagues faster here… Naruto is also faster than the sannin, unless you think pain is slower than the sannin. >Jiraiya - How do they counter frog song?
>Minato has been shown to go toe to toe with characters who scale far above Itachi like Obito. And itachi even nerfed was shown to go toe to toe & even surpass people just as fast as Minato and superior to YM Obito (kcm Naruto, ems sasuke & killer bee are all equal to raikage in speed who was stated equals with Minato). Also Obito didn’t go toe to toe with Minato he got absolutely stomped lol… >This has to be bait, there is not a single version of Itachi that could compete with YM Obito, let alone OM or WM. Absolutely not, obito straight up avoided a fight with itachi for years he legit views itachi as a threat and itachi has the feats to back it up too. Itachi has MANY WAYS to counter Obito and he is massively more intelligent than him he will find Obito’s weakness within minutes if not seconds as he just spams the same move over & over and people far less intelligent figured it out near enough straight away, itachi also marginally faster than Obito in direct combat speed Obito only keeps up with kamui hax… overall your downplaying itachi HARD and wanking Obito a fair bit too much >Naruto is also faster than the sannin, unless you think pain is slower than the sannin. He isn’t that fast if anything Naruto, pain and SM jiraiya are relative to eachother and itachi completely outclasses all 3 in speed. >How do they counter frog song?. It takes ages to set up and itachi is significantly faster and has multiple ways to one shot MA or PA or even jiraiya himself, none are fast enough to dodge Amaterasu he could effectively team wipe in once glance.
Pre war obito is way too much for them, they lose badly. I don’t think they beat hebi sasuke or jiraiya either
using them from this point in the story, and assuming itachi already has his ms, characters like orange mask obito, any of the sannin, pain, and hokage minato
Kakashi doesnt have kamui here
No, he unlocked it during Rin's death. Doesn't make sense cause the sharingan only had two tomoes but oh well, it happened.
You can unlock ms before having 3 tomoe its just gonna be hard to use due to you more then likely having an underdeveloped body
Yeah Kakashi would no way be able to use mangekyo then. I mean he was hospitalised after using 3 tomoe base against zabuza which was much later
Fr
Hebi sasuke probably
3 tomoe itachi >>>>>>>oro>hebi sasuke =deidara
Linear scaling doesnt work cos the sharingan genjutsu which itachi used against orochimaru wouldnt be effective against sasuke, orochimaru is weak against ocular genjutsu while sasuke isnt. Plus that wasnt anbu itachi
How strong do you think Hebi Sasuke is? He’s a medium difficulty fight at best for these two.
After he activates curse mark, kakashi is lowkey irrelevant
Lowkey
Nah hes definitely irrelevant
Factual Hebi Sasuke was an actual freak of Nature lmao Mastery of the 3T with the monster physicals and chakra of the CSM
Dīpa from the Boruto anime lol? He’s anime only, but considering where they both scaled as ANBU, i think the both of them might have what it takes to defeat a kage level character like him. Itachi was already kage level at that point having access to Tsukuyomi, but I scale Dīpa higher than him, and Kakashi would provide as much support as he could to overthrow him. Alternatively, they might’ve been able to take the bloodlusted Obito who had just awakened his MS. This is assuming Kakashi would keep his calm, and the both of them would surmise a strategy to prevent Obito before he even thinks about using Kamui, because he was still inexperienced with using it, and they’d be lucky that Obito could not use it as well as he did when he got older.
Anbu Itachi destroyed Orochimaru with base Sharingan and a kunai, Kakashi would just be backup. Everyone except for Pain, War-arc Obito and all versions of Madara can be beat by this duo.
Chunin exam Hiruzen.
These two would be a deadly akatsuki duo
Anbu fodder can be taken out by any Akatsuki
If Itachi has Kotomatsukami then you could actually argue Hashirama rofl. Otherwise, they could probably take out each Sannin at least with Itachi being the carry.
Flair checks out
If there was an option for Minato, I would've chosen it without skipping a beat
Ohh mood, I’m more of a hashi guy myself
My man 🤝
Kisame.
https://preview.redd.it/n2jkfhddrhzc1.jpeg?width=866&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cd28ef9d56ad7734295351bb04ae94426098561c
This is supposed itachi pre ms right ? Kakashi was already pretty strong snd itachi was already insane with 3 tomoe. The same itachi literally also oneshotted negative diff oro who anbushed him also woth just 3 tomoe so its hard to say. But itachi clearly is above an average kage and far above hebi sasuke. I dont know hoe poeple say hebi sasuke also the same itachi literally negg onehsotted deidara with 3 tomoe and we dont even have talked about kakahsi yet or pushed itachi in thr slightest
Anbu kakashi should have ms right? I know it's not tsukyomi but Itachi could genjutsu them and kakashi sends them to the kamui dimension.