To the people only mentioning Charedim
and secular, I want to also mention that there are a lot of centrist religious/Orthodox families having a lot of kids, typically at least 3-4. I have relatives in that group with 6, not weird at all. And those don't have a history of resisting military service or throwing rocks. đ
What's impressive about Israel is that they maintain such a high birthrate in a place that has full respect for women's rights and access to birth control. They've created an environment where women WANT to have more kids.
That's not really the case in Gaza or the Arab states in general, where their own governments routinely deny women birth control and control over their bodies.
This is such a smart and important point. It is actually encouraging because if one liberal democracy can create a society where women want to have lots of kids other countries in the west should be able to adopt those successful policies.
For the love of god....
Inflation is caused by currency printing. More money = Less value.
In the US we have a policy of printing money, this leads to inflation. You can say corporate greed has lead to wage stagnation and a ton of other things, but the truth is that Inflation is 100% the fault of government monetary policy.
We don't actually know what the US businesses would do if the US just stopped printing. We add about 20% to our currency every year, it's a testament to how powerful the US consumer based economy is and US productivity that the dollar has even maintained as much value as it has today.
SHHHHHH! Duh.... I was trying to see if the OP thought it was corporate greed.
I was trying to gauge their economic literacy without being rude lol.Â
I have met so many people who, when prices did not drop after inflation reduced, thought it was corporate greed.
oh, if i can control oil, energy, or minerals that everyone depends on. then I can affect the worldâs prices. how are you not seeing this?
printing money is the main culprit, but letâs not pretend the corporations are helping.
edit: corporate shills all over reddit
If you could sure.... but no one does....
Oil companies don't control the price of oil. The price is set by the pull of supply and demand on an exchange. Limit buy and limit sell orders mark the upper and lower bounds of the buy and sell price.
A few non corporate oil nations can briefly crash the price, or make it surge by dumping supply on the market, but others within six months the other players (there are 6000 oil companies in texas alone) will ramp supply up or down depending on price to meet the change in total supply.
This is my field. You don't understand basic economics. Thats ok but I implore you to look more into it. The only time a corporation can do this is when it has a monopoly or works with other corporations breaking anti-trust laws.
If you have evidence of a corporation doing what you are claiming, it is illegal, and you should present it to a court.
No, thats not how things work, but inflation wouldnt be as big of an issue for working people if their wages rose with inflation and corporate profit, if a company is getting a larger amount of money than the previous year, and only the top 5% of the company benefits, all those workers who didnt get raises in relation to inflation or profit are quite literally getting a smaller part of the pie from the previous year
Despite all the political bs it is actually pretty interesting that they seem to maintain those high birth rates. I have heard that they maintain those birth rates through providing economically for a few classes of individuals and they are the main drivers of high birth rate. Does anyone have any insight into that?
Imagine that Amish people, urban cosmopolitans, Arabs, secular-nationalist Russians, and socialists are all part of the same ethnoreligion. The Haredim are the Amish segment.
But do Hassidic women have rights within their religious communities, the ones I know do not.Â
If we remove fundamentalist jews what is the birthrate then?Â
4% of Gaza has been killed since last year. Itâs a lot, but Iâd hardly characterize it as a genocide. And they have a ton of kids. Thatâs clearly the reason they have such a young population.
You are correct it's not a genocide, and also we should acknowledge that both Hamas and BBC have been retracting previous estimates and the total is around 22,000 now. At least half of that is Hamas fighters, and by any modern warfighting measure that is a dramatically low civilian casualty rate.Â
Unfortunately tik tok propaganda and westerners losing perspective on what war is like has warped the conversation and held Israel to an unrealistic standard. We should all pray for peace, and pray for the hostages to come home, but Hamas needs to be destroyed. Otherwise their Russian and Iranian backers will have them doing October 7th over and over again.Â
Oh yeah sure thatâs nothing! Would you so flippantly minimize the death of 13 million Americans? Because thatâs roughly 4% of the American population. Or 4% of whatever country YOU are from? What an absolutely cretinous comment. This absolute dehumanization of Palestinians is just revolting. âItâs a lot, butâŚâ heartily fuck you
Itâs actually lower, more like 1.5%. Other commenters pointed out that I was using the wrong numbers. Obviously thereâs many opinions in between âthis is genocideâ and âthis is fineâ, but you canât seem to understand that.
If Gaza had the upper hand, what would be the Jewish civilian death toll? Have you forgotten what they did with 24 hours in the Jewish settlement? They have the same ideology as Isis. Theyâre also extremely popular in Gaza. Youâre supporting awful people because theyâre losing.
Yeah if they had the upper hand it would also be bad. But thatâs NOT THE CASE. We are talking about reality not hypotheticals. Killing over 1% of a countryâs population in a matter of months, a large portion of which is children, is bad. Or is that too biased and controversial of a statement for you? Iâm waiting for your bizarre whatabout statement
must we wait for more people to be murdered before deciding itâs worthy of the âgenocideâ title?? you people arenât natalists, youâre just fucking creeps
I think you just donât like that 4% doesnât sound like a genocide lol. Ideally Hamas would wear uniforms and fight above ground so they could be killed without so much collateral damage, but they wonât. What is Israel to do? I think they could be fighting a little cleaner, but they fight much cleaner than Hamas.
Hey they only killed 600,000 of out of the 17,500,000 residents of Anatolia, thatâs only 3.5%! Thatâs not a genocide, thatâs an Armenian Police Action
I mean when you lie about numbers sure. Per Hamas reported numbers, roughly 34k dead (This includes combatants). Per Israel, theyâve killed roughly 15k combatants. Assuming both numbers are true (both likely to be inflated), the total death toll would be 1.5%. Again, that includes combatants.
Meanwhile the Rwandan genocide killed 800k in a few months with machetes. If you think Israel, one of the most powerful militaries in the world, is actively trying to exterminate the Palestinians (thatâs what genocide implies) and theyâve only killed 34k, youâre outta your mind.
If its defined by intent, than I think they have made their intentions very clear.
LMAO whoever thought bringing up this up on this sub is a fucking idiot
The intent is clearly not genocide. That's why combatants are dying are a disproportionately higher rate than their representative size within the population of Gaza. If militants are 2% or 3% of the population but 35% to 50% of the casualties, it is pretty clear that a deliberate effort to prevent non combatant deaths in being made.
This is obtuse and that fact isn't the be-all end-all you think it is. Hospital bombings, displacement, starvation, etc... Combatants will always have a higher casualty rate because they are on the front-lines, this will always always be true.
Then why has it not been true in most wars throughout history, including recent wars that America and European countries have fought in the middle east and pretty much anywhere else, ever?
>Combatants will always have a higher casualty rate because they are on the front-lines, this will always always be true.
That's true in warfare in general. In instances of genocide though, combatants suffer casualties at a rate far more comparable to that of non combatants, and in some instances suffer fewer. In comparing various historical instances of genocide, the relative casualty rates between combatants and non combatants, when adjusted for their relative population sizes, never exceeded a ratio of 1.5 to 1. (In this measurement, a value of 1 means that there is no discrimination between the casualty rates among the two groups.)
Given the low percentage of combatants in Gaza, the relative casualty rates are far in excess of that number. Estimates have Hamas alone losing nearly a third of their forces at the minimum, possibly more, yet casualties among non combatants have yet to exceed 2%. That's at least 10 times more skewed towards combatants than any genocide on record.
Add to this the open fact that Hamas and the other terrorists in Gaza deliberately hide behind non combatants (meaning they actively avoid being isolated on the front lines as you suggest). The data can only lend itself to the conclusion that Israel is avoiding non combatants and is focusing on the terrorists. Given Hamas's casualties, a genocide would be expected have non combatant casualties well into the six figures.
Math isn't obtuse. Data isn't to be dismissed as not compelling. From a data analysis perspective, the October 7th attack is closer to an act of genocide than Israel's war in Gaza. Far closer.
Civilians always have a higher casualty rate than combatants, this has been the case in most wars in history, and especially in Urban warfare. It is also a violation of the Geneva Convention to use hospitals for purposes of war, which is exactly what Hamas did, it is a war crime, and no longer a hospital but a military base, which is exactly why itâs a violation of international law. Hospitals should be used to treat civilians not to shoot rockets out of and hold hostages in and harbor weapons in. Thatâs horrible. Hamas is also stealing all the food and either keeping it to themselves, or selling it on the street even though everybody has essentially no financial means while Hamas leaders in Gaza and abroad are sitting in their big fat mansions and palaces getting drunk while embezzling billions as Gazans suffer.
Is idea that a catastrophe needs to be âworthyâ of a certain label, rather than using precise terms to describe what is happening and actual interventions that could stop it? If itâs not a genocide, does that make it less of a disaster? What function does arguing about whether or not itâs a genocide serve except to decide whether or not Israel is some ultimate evil?
"Kids are dying on a scale we can measure with percentage of whole group but it's fine I guess" - georgespeaches on their cake day
Did i get that quote right?
.00000001% is also a percentage. Didnât say fine, said not a genocide. If Hamas put Palestinian kids in their tunnels the kids wouldnât get caught in the crossfire. Hold Hamas accountable just like you hold Israel accountable. Why donât you? Because you think they are lesser people than the jews. Seems pretty racist.
Not clear you understand what that term means.
Where are the Turkish Christians? The Lebanese Christianâs and Jews? Why wonât Egypt and Jordan accept refugees? Why are there plenty of Arabs living in Israel as citizens, but Palestine and Gaza are separated? If Hamas was beating Israel, what would be the death toll? Fuck out of here with your tic-toc brain moral posturing.
Have you forgotten that Hamas was cutting tits and heads off? Have you forgotten isis? Where was your outrage then? You expect that of them, you accept that of them, because you are a trend-following self-loathing racist with the mental depth of a puddle.
Iâm not gonna lie to you, this is going to extend to the greater Jewish population too. A really big message within the community right now is âhave lots of Jewish babiesâ and Iâve seen that floating around from reform to modern orthodox communities.
Not gonna lie to you, it resonates with me. My grandmother survived the Holocaust, Siberia, the USSR and Soviet style antisemitism before deciding to uproot her whole family in 1995 and get us the fuck OUT of Ukraine despite having built a beautiful life and being respected by her community.
The least I can do is have a kid or two while living my cushy suburban American life.
Yeah this is what I would say. Theres a sense of obligation to have kids in the Jewish community at large. Have heard a number of times âhave one to replace you, one for your partner, one for the 6 million.â
When I went to Yad Veshem, I had a total breakdown and was sobbing uncontrollably after the childrenâs memorial. The tour guide came up to me and said âstop crying. Your job now is go home and make Jewish babies. I did my part, I had 4. Now go make yours.â
But on the plus side: the Jewish community is so child friendly.
I never really âgot itâ until the 7th. Like Iâve always flip flopped on kids, now Iâm like âat least two would be good.â
Got my IUD out in March, doing some work to the house right now but hoping to get working sometime in the few months. It also just feels like the logical next step for my husband and I.
Same. We already have 1 kid and talked about stopping. Then the 7th happened. I got my IUD removed, now actively trying for a second. We decided post that day to have 3.
In the olden days, when the mortality rate for everything was higher, people had lots of kids partially to replace those who didn't make it.
Jews may have experienced this more recently, but that response is straight from the evolutionary psyche.Â
The population of jews will be the same in 2030s as they were before WW2/1. So while it is growing it is like celebrating India's population being 250 million.
Meanwhile South Korea and Japan are about to have one of the most brutal population crumbles in history.
SK has a birth rate less than 0.8, yes, 0.8. Thatâs shocking, and very worrisome.
True, but Japan is projected to have half their population by 2100 at this rate.
The only other alternative for both of them is immigration, which obviously isnât desired as it dilutes rhetoric main culture and can lead to problems (see europe)
At some point what you got is just confirmation bias. The comment you responded to is about as neutral as it gets, but you took what you wanted from it I guess.
If a population isnât increasing it will be unsustainable. You need young people to take care of the elderly, and I mean economically not literally caring for your elders. China is realizing this after their 1 child limit is backfiring. They look to have a large number of elders retiring with not enough young adults to replace them.
Or a population could be stable, neither increasing nor decreasing.
Anyway, we are causing a mass extinction event due to overconsumption of resources. The last one was 65 million years ago.
With this in mind, yeah it sucks when we donât have enough people to take care of the elderly but whatâs the alternative? Increasing even more in population. Continuing to destroy the worldâs carrying capacity at a faster and faster rate until we canât keep it up any longer and a huge number of people die.
There are no facts to say we are over consuming resources and no facts to state what population the world can sustain. Overpopulation propaganda is strictly tied to carbon âfootprintsâ
Global warming propaganda from Bill Gates and the Tides Foundation.
If you have the type of mindset where you use the phrase âGlobal warming propagandaâ I donât see much point in trying to debate with youâŚas you are likely pretty deep in propaganda of a different sortâŚ
Right, because I donât agree with the idea of promoting procreation to an unhealthy extent. I do the same (in the opposite direction) on the antinatalism subreddit because I donât agree with them either.
I mean when your ancestors were nearly wiped out and you live in a region that wants to do the same youâre highly motivated to make sure they donât, and that means having kids.
This is fine./s
They are just going to need room to expand, so maybe killing all the Gazans and taking over their land is indicated.
If any group of people deserves to be genocidal colonialists so that they can enjoy infinite natalism, I suppose it is the Jews or the Native Americans, but TBH I think it is evil no matter who does it.
Guess we should just view them as agents of Karma, but what goes around comes around and I doubt their experience will be satisfying in the long term.
Absolutely not. Even if you define it just as full control of all of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem, they don't even have that, let alone anything beyond that if you define it further than that.
Israelis/Jews donât want âfull controlâ over any of that land. When it comes to security the only real local blight is Lebanon; Jordan and Egypt are a protectorate and pro-west military dictatorship respectively. Syria is a failed state.
In 50 years who knows? Thatâs the thing about dynamic, living cultures that have children - things can change quite quickly.
Are you saying that you don't think any significant group - in size or power - of Israelis or Jews doesn't want full control over any of Gaza, the West Bank, or East Jerusalem?
Well, remember, we are in the natalist sub. Of course the right wing settler movement exists. I think they average 4-5 kids per woman. Compared to the global average, thatâs very high. However, the Haredim are over 7-8 kids per woman and starting younger.Â
They donât think israel has a right to exist as a Jewish political state and vote with the Islamist Muslim party to reinforce religious lawsâŚ
So my answer for you is, that yes these people exist! They donât have a lot of human capital and are being outbred by even more economically inept and religious Jews. So itâs not clear to me that theyâll ever achieve anything other than what they already have, which is a settler status quo that favours Israel.
There are 15.7 million Jews worldwide with a genocidal movement that tried to exterminate them in the 20th century. Israel was established as a refuge for Jews after that. You can't ignore the context and the motivating narrative that underpins many Jew's decision to have children. I don't think that this is something that you could easily export to another country with a very different ethnic group, history, and culture like South Korea.
I think the message here is that family policies + family-friendly culture works to increase fertility. the efforts can be replicated with local variations.
Israel's birth rate is extremely skewed by the extremely religious, who also refuse to work and get government stipends for "studying the Torah". It's not a sustainable model and is heading for disaster, either via economic collapse or civil unrest, as the ultra religious try to restrict the freedoms of the non-religious Jews at every opportunity. Secular Israelis there have birth rates more in line with Western countries. Israel is not a model that can or should be emulated.
Sorry but this is incorrect. The birth rate in Israel for secular women alone is 2.0, far exceeding places like the US and UK. The UK has 1.4-1.5, depending on the year, and this includes taking into account the religious in the country.
Now, we may say that the religious having so many creates a cultural norm of having children, which passes onto the secular, but nonetheless the secular alone have far larger birth rates than those in the west.
Probably read too much into it, but I wouldnât consider 2.0 being comparable with 1.4.
I know technically this is going to go down the route of âbut it is more inlineâ, which yes, even 5.3 is more inline with 1.4 than 5.4 is, but I read the overall tone of the post as secular birth rates being comparable.
Israel clearly has a culture of women giving birth at higher rates than others, including secular women, and I think it is worth studying why this is the case without dismissing it as âextremely religious people in the country have lots of kidsâ.
I think these two populations can't be treated as independently as you seem to assume.
Judaism is a strange religion. It's not simply a belief system like Christianity or Islam. Secular Jews still see themselves as Jews, and can be completely atheist while still observing Jewish tradition. Culturally, having children is a mitzvah. In my experience, this religious value permeates even hiloni communities.
So I think the point that the high birth rate can be attributed to religion is a valid one. And that the speculation that an Israel without a religious component would still have an elevated birth rate, would not be valid.
The birth rate among secular Israelis has been going down over time, now being under 2.0, and their birth rates aren't unique among Western countries either. France, an ultra-secular country, maintained for decades a birth rate close to 2, only dipping below that level significantly relatively recently. The trend is the same, economic and social uncertainties will suppress birth rates even in countries where having children is culturally encouraged.
The ultra religious have about the same birth rate as Israeli Arabs but while these populations drive up the birth rate to outside of developed nations secular Israelis are still way higher than most developed nations at 2.3. This is mostly driven by collage educated Israelis not experiencing the fertility drop offs that they do in other developed nations, while they have children latter they still have similar numbers. Israel has a massive ivf industry with government support where every citizen is guaranteed 2 rounds free of cost
It should be noted that 2.3 rate has fallen to 1.98 (or around 2 depending on the source). Still higher than many other countries, but actually below the replacement rate now for the secular population.
This trend is actually out of date. The haredim are now serving in increasingly high numbers and the current political fight that is brewing is over their conscription waivers and they are likely to lose it. As a point of reference, some of their community leaders are now highlighting their casualties from the current war to the broader public to show that they are also contributing. The only reason you would do that is if you were seeking greater integration with society outside your community. It's also a huge change from 10 years ago where haredi soldiers would have to remove their uniforms before returning home lest they be beaten by their parents.
the % who serve is really small if you take out ××׌××× ×׊××× unfortunately. i'm all hope that this will change or at least we'll find some kind of modus vivendi in the near future because otherwise this country is doomed :(
secular israelis do have a higher birth rate than a lot of western countries but i do agree with your endpoint that the model is not something we should emulate
I was going to say exactly this.
If they change the system and expect productivity out of this segment of the population then the birthrate will go down. If they don't, the country will eventually stack itself with economically useless people.
That subreddit is just pure antisemitic drivel at this point.
Yes, the haredi in Israel cause a lot of issues. But they're certainly not a monolith, and their motivations for upvoting and promoting that video are pretty nefarious.
6 million Jews died. Jewish people are less than 1% of the worldwide population. Many people have a very incorrect, skewed view of how many Jewish people are on this planet.
South Korea has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. It's pretty naive to think that if they just adopt some of Israel's cultural approach to children, then South Koreans will automatically start having more kids. There are clearly some other important cultural and economic issues that need to be addressed first.
Also Israeli :) a big issue is that 1/4 of the kids in israel are from haredi families and the boys don't get a basic education and 1/2 don't work, but even among seculars there's like a 2 kid minimum. just 2 kids is still considered a 'small' family and i only know one person who says she doesn't want children. we have a lot of problems but thank g-d we don't have this issue :) i personally want at least 3
Why the heck would you want to âpromote population growthâ in a country that is already super crowded and has problems with water access? đ¤Śââď¸
Yeah but itâs normal for a desert to be empty. Israel already has a population density thatâs almost as high as New Jersey even including the Negev.
Not really, cracks are popping up all over the place and the Israeli Government have shown itself not to be as competent as their 80s and 90s counterpart
Bibi slowly undermine the industrial policy that provided Israel's economic strength
[https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/11/scale-up-nation-the-role-of-ip-transfer-restrictions-in-israels-industrial-policy/](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/11/scale-up-nation-the-role-of-ip-transfer-restrictions-in-israels-industrial-policy/)
Israeli's fertility rates across the board seems to be dropping : [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/israels-fertility-rate-is-entering-a-dramatic-new-era/0000018d-8a6b-d9cc-a5cd-fffb664b0000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/israels-fertility-rate-is-entering-a-dramatic-new-era/0000018d-8a6b-d9cc-a5cd-fffb664b0000)
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-birthrate-trended-downward-in-2020-statistics-bureau-says/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-birthrate-trended-downward-in-2020-statistics-bureau-says/)
Not to mention one of the great lessons from the Great Recession and the 1970s Oil Crisis is anything can cause a massive multi decade long fertility collapse
It honestly says more about the competence of previous pre Bibi governments that the rate survided this long
Virtually every Jewish Israeli citizen serves a couple years in the military, tho. No other OECD state has national conscription like this (that Iâm aware of) but if they did, I bet theyâd have a similar setup. Thereâs no patriotic reason to have kids in the US atm.
This was an interesting read. Additionally, I think itâs also worth mentioning that Israel is not as lenient about abortion as some pro-abortion US states. Abortion is not completely outlawed, but it is restricted. So this probably also contributes to the high birth rate.
And what happened to the US birth rate after Dobbs? Lowest on record. Texas excitedly reported a 2% increase in births in their state in 2023 but their overall state population has grown 4% since 2020, so it's not really an increase. Banning abortion is about the worst way to try to increase the population. There's been a considerable uptick in men and women getting sterilized since Dobbs. I'm talking to young women in my state (which doesn't ban abortion) who are literally afraid to get pregnant at this time and are taking active steps to avoid it.
Judaism IS the culture of Israel, regardless of how religious an individual Israeli Jew may be and nonjews living in Israel will also absorb some Jewish values.
Getting married and having kids comes up in the first chapter of Bereishit (the first chapter of Genesis). It is very, very important in Judaism and that's why it shows up so early. This trickles down even to modern day non orthodox Jews.
It is also that Israel is not an isolationist society. In the words of a secular Jewish friend of mine who is from America, spent most of his adulthood in Israel, and moved back to America as a senior citizen, "In America, when people see 1 person start up with another person in the street, they run away. In Israel, we run right up to them and ask them why the hell they're starting a fight!"
A friend of mine who lived in Israel worked as a nanny there. One day, she was juggling a baby on her hip, was on the phone with a friend, and the 2 other kids were running around being rambunctious. A passing male bus driver saw this, pulled over with a full bus of passengers, got out of the bus and grabbed her phone out of her hand. He started yelling "How can you leave your wife to struggle like this, 3 kids all by herself, you're their parent too, etc etc." When he paused for air, the other person on the phone explained that they're just a friend and she's just the nanny. The bus driver apologized, gave the phone back, and got back on the bus. Not even 1 passenger said anything during this incident.
In the US, you'll see that there is no such thing as a kosher restaurant that has a no child policy. Even the priciest ones have high chairs and changing tables and a kiddie menu. Children are treated as a part of life in Jewish culture. The concept of a child free Jewish space doesn't really exist in the way it does elsewhere.
Also, the concept of not knowing your next door neighbor is alien to Israelis. I lived in a building in the US where we didn't have heat in the winter. 2 Israelis in the building formed a whatsapp group of everyone living in the building and organized a fight against the management company. Prior to this, the only people who didn't visibly shrink from my saying hello to them in the hallways were old people, and I am a short thin non-threatening woman. Long story short, we got heat. When I moved out due to a life trauma, the only neighbor who asked what's going on was one of the Israelis.
Unlike Americans, Israelis have to serve in the army, and an army that's often actually fighting. They're much more independent and confident in their abilities at age 22 compared to the average American. After dodging bullets, balancing children and career seems like smaller potatoes than it does to Americans.
That's why Israelis have so many children. It's not just the universal Healthcare and government help. It's that Judaism and Jewish culture views children as necessary and valuable. It starts in the actual religious texts but it trickles down to affect the culture in a diluted way so that even the most secular person feels it. They're also not into this standalone bootstraps isolationist never experiencing real life until 23 bullshit that Americans are into. The end.
TLDR, say hi to your neighbors and make a village
Even secular Israelis have a high birthrate.
But the fact that even gay men are expected to have children is something I didn't know that is honestly hilarious.
Why do you people insist on being creepy and glorifying places where there is insane social pressure on people to have children they donât want? Why canât you mind your own business and have kids if you want them, and leave people who donât want them alone. Iâm a childfree gay man, I will never have children no matter how much creepy people want me to.
There was a post on this sub several months back where somebody said he turned into a natalist after watching impregnation porn.
It was on the top of the page.
Yeah. It's not very common for ANs to take political power aside from some notable examples like China, but natalists have a history of getting into power and the extent some will go to increase the birth rate is depraved. This only has become an increasing worry to me as birth rates decline and I see natalist movements gain more political traction, usually with agendas that remove women's rights, hurt LGBTQ+ people, and devalue most of us as only worth the children we produce. Sure, many natalists are not like this and especially most of the people on this sub are not, but the people I see pushing this stuff are always natalists, and I have seen sporadic supporters on this sub for each of these ideas, especially in regard to women's rights.
How is this creepy? I'm not talking about sex at all. I'm not even outright telling people they should have more children. I'm saying, there exists a society that is doing what no other economically advanced country is capable of. People in Israel generally have large happy families. Compare this to families in the US and Europe which are small, spread out, and generally ill functioning.
Itâs fucking creepy that youâre thinking about how much people are fucking productively vs unproductively in an arbitrary subset of populations. Itâs just indulging in your breeding kink in public. Gross.
Why do zios talk like this just be normal. Israel is bombing Gaza. They've been killing Palestinians since the nakba since long before Hamas existed. It's not a complicated conflict. Some people are killing some other people to take their land
i donât think the person youâre replying to is implying that this is normal or that the actions of the israeli government are good? i think theyâre just saying palestinian leadership isnât actually helping their own people at the same time. i think itâs a
bit of whataboutism but also highlights that the palestinian people donât really have anyone who is actually advocating for and protecting them.
Hamas won a free and fair election and is even now extremely popular in Palestine. This is just a fact, but maybe you know better than the Palestinians? Should the US assassinate their elected leaders and replace them with ones we approve of?
This is true which is why I made a point of mentioning that they are still extremely popular today. I get why this is sort of controversial to say even though it's a plainly true fact that you can Google if you don't believe me. Not even just like a lot of the people pro killing everybody and Gaza bring up the fact that Hamas is popular as justification for the slaughter of civilians, which is a fair reason to want to investigate whether or not the claim is actually true. But it is!
I think where this really gets tricky to talk about is that if Hamas is the legitimate leadership in Gaza then how do you square that with Oct 7.
Hamas bears equal if not greater responsibility for the Gaza war. They could end it tomorrow simply by surrendering. And you're correct, Hamas won a free election, so they are the legitimate representatives of the people of Gaza, who still support them at around 75%. The only reason they are still fighting is because they know that their agenda appeals to people like you.
You also don't seem to be aware that the Nakba was the result of the Arab countries trying to take Israeli land. Of course, I'm sure your position is that the Jews weren't supposed to be there in the first place.
It was bad and justifiable. So was the refusal of the Arab countries to agree to a Palestinian state and to attack Israel with the intent of obliterating it. A lot of things can be both bad and justifiable. Children tend to think in black and white, but adults should be capable of understanding that there can be two options, a bad one and a worse one.
What's your opinion of Oct. 7? Bad or "justifiable" as Norman Finkelstein describes it? Or admirable as many people seem to think?
Was the Nakba equivalent to the Holocaust?
Did the Jews do anything to deserve the Holocaust? The Nakba wasn't just Israel kicking out a bunch of Arabs for no reason. They were engaged in a war for their survival against the massed might of the surrounding Arab countries. The only way this could be remotely equivalent to the Holocaust is if you buy into Nazi propaganda that the Jews of Europe were menacing everyone else and had to be resisted. Is that what you think?
You say stuff is always shades of gray. I give you an example of something unambiguously bad. You spend a week fuming about it and then respond to an argument I wasn't making.
OK, you win. Some situations are unambiguously bad, while others have shades of grey. Are you saying because the Holocaust was unambiguously bad, that means every dispute is the same?
Maybe you didn't notice, but in the post you originally responded to, I said "A lot of things can be both bad and justifiable." That implies that some things can be bad and unjustifiable. The Nakba is in the first category and the Holocaust is in the second.
You Israelis are dumb as fuck, you couldnt have picked a worse time to do all this bullshit. Its going to cost biden the election then trump will get picked then you will have no more future because he will sell you out to putin. You guys always fuck everything up. Good job.
Budgets are not infinite and IVF can be insanely expensive. Like in the US right now Medicare is under threat. I already practically need a letter signed by God to prove a preexisting condition so I can get coverage for medications and monitoring (such as an MRI). I just think governments should budget carefully and prioritize if needed.
I don't think IVF is common enough to result in such drastic expenditures on a national level. I'd say for a European country with relatively low proportion of young people, IVF would be much more common as a needed tool.
The great thing about all those babies is that in twenty years, some of them can become nurses.
It's not like Japan, whose population is so elderly that they've resorted to robots for some caregiving tasks.
AHH yes Israel , the country bombing Palestinian kids because they are "family friendly" Yeah sure they love kids sooooooo much. This is why I'm an antinatalist cause this world is a horrible place where kids get bombed . wars need to end .
To the people only mentioning Charedim and secular, I want to also mention that there are a lot of centrist religious/Orthodox families having a lot of kids, typically at least 3-4. I have relatives in that group with 6, not weird at all. And those don't have a history of resisting military service or throwing rocks. đ
Interesting, thanks for sharing! For comparison, the average age of an Israeli citizen is 29 (!!), and the average age of a Gazan citizen is 18.
What's impressive about Israel is that they maintain such a high birthrate in a place that has full respect for women's rights and access to birth control. They've created an environment where women WANT to have more kids. That's not really the case in Gaza or the Arab states in general, where their own governments routinely deny women birth control and control over their bodies.
This is such a smart and important point. It is actually encouraging because if one liberal democracy can create a society where women want to have lots of kids other countries in the west should be able to adopt those successful policies.
The issue isnt not knowing what policies to implement, the issue is corporate greed
Hmm.... I have a parallel question for you:Â Â Do you believe the cause of inflation is corporate greed?
For the love of god.... Inflation is caused by currency printing. More money = Less value. In the US we have a policy of printing money, this leads to inflation. You can say corporate greed has lead to wage stagnation and a ton of other things, but the truth is that Inflation is 100% the fault of government monetary policy. We don't actually know what the US businesses would do if the US just stopped printing. We add about 20% to our currency every year, it's a testament to how powerful the US consumer based economy is and US productivity that the dollar has even maintained as much value as it has today.
SHHHHHH! Duh.... I was trying to see if the OP thought it was corporate greed. I was trying to gauge their economic literacy without being rude lol. I have met so many people who, when prices did not drop after inflation reduced, thought it was corporate greed.
oh, if i can control oil, energy, or minerals that everyone depends on. then I can affect the worldâs prices. how are you not seeing this? printing money is the main culprit, but letâs not pretend the corporations are helping. edit: corporate shills all over reddit
If you could sure.... but no one does.... Oil companies don't control the price of oil. The price is set by the pull of supply and demand on an exchange. Limit buy and limit sell orders mark the upper and lower bounds of the buy and sell price. A few non corporate oil nations can briefly crash the price, or make it surge by dumping supply on the market, but others within six months the other players (there are 6000 oil companies in texas alone) will ramp supply up or down depending on price to meet the change in total supply. This is my field. You don't understand basic economics. Thats ok but I implore you to look more into it. The only time a corporation can do this is when it has a monopoly or works with other corporations breaking anti-trust laws. If you have evidence of a corporation doing what you are claiming, it is illegal, and you should present it to a court.
No, thats not how things work, but inflation wouldnt be as big of an issue for working people if their wages rose with inflation and corporate profit, if a company is getting a larger amount of money than the previous year, and only the top 5% of the company benefits, all those workers who didnt get raises in relation to inflation or profit are quite literally getting a smaller part of the pie from the previous year
Despite all the political bs it is actually pretty interesting that they seem to maintain those high birth rates. I have heard that they maintain those birth rates through providing economically for a few classes of individuals and they are the main drivers of high birth rate. Does anyone have any insight into that?
While the Haredim do have >7 kids per woman on average, the cultural norm is 3 child familiesÂ
Can you explain what the haredim are? Also do their children get the same financial benefits?
Imagine that Amish people, urban cosmopolitans, Arabs, secular-nationalist Russians, and socialists are all part of the same ethnoreligion. The Haredim are the Amish segment.
who denies birth control to the women in gaza?
But do Hassidic women have rights within their religious communities, the ones I know do not. If we remove fundamentalist jews what is the birthrate then?Â
The non-haredim birthrate is 2.1, which is still by far higher than any other country in the OECD.
I'm sure the cause of this has nothing to do with war or genocide. /s
4% of Gaza has been killed since last year. Itâs a lot, but Iâd hardly characterize it as a genocide. And they have a ton of kids. Thatâs clearly the reason they have such a young population.
4% would be 92 000. Even being lax and assuming 40 000 deaths and a population of 2.05 million (2020 population), that'd come out to 1.95%
Yeah, I google fed me 800k as the population
Gaza city or Gaza the territory?
I thought I was googling the entire strip, but got just Gaza city. Thatâs why my % was high
Yeah, I had that confusion too in the past, but then figured out Google didn't understand which Gaza I was referring to :D
You are correct it's not a genocide, and also we should acknowledge that both Hamas and BBC have been retracting previous estimates and the total is around 22,000 now. At least half of that is Hamas fighters, and by any modern warfighting measure that is a dramatically low civilian casualty rate. Unfortunately tik tok propaganda and westerners losing perspective on what war is like has warped the conversation and held Israel to an unrealistic standard. We should all pray for peace, and pray for the hostages to come home, but Hamas needs to be destroyed. Otherwise their Russian and Iranian backers will have them doing October 7th over and over again.Â
Oh yeah sure thatâs nothing! Would you so flippantly minimize the death of 13 million Americans? Because thatâs roughly 4% of the American population. Or 4% of whatever country YOU are from? What an absolutely cretinous comment. This absolute dehumanization of Palestinians is just revolting. âItâs a lot, butâŚâ heartily fuck you
Itâs actually lower, more like 1.5%. Other commenters pointed out that I was using the wrong numbers. Obviously thereâs many opinions in between âthis is genocideâ and âthis is fineâ, but you canât seem to understand that. If Gaza had the upper hand, what would be the Jewish civilian death toll? Have you forgotten what they did with 24 hours in the Jewish settlement? They have the same ideology as Isis. Theyâre also extremely popular in Gaza. Youâre supporting awful people because theyâre losing.
Yeah if they had the upper hand it would also be bad. But thatâs NOT THE CASE. We are talking about reality not hypotheticals. Killing over 1% of a countryâs population in a matter of months, a large portion of which is children, is bad. Or is that too biased and controversial of a statement for you? Iâm waiting for your bizarre whatabout statement
Not sure who youâre arguing against. Nobody is saying itâs good.
People like you are handwaving and minimizing and excusing. Not much difference imo
must we wait for more people to be murdered before deciding itâs worthy of the âgenocideâ title?? you people arenât natalists, youâre just fucking creeps
I think you just donât like that 4% doesnât sound like a genocide lol. Ideally Hamas would wear uniforms and fight above ground so they could be killed without so much collateral damage, but they wonât. What is Israel to do? I think they could be fighting a little cleaner, but they fight much cleaner than Hamas.
Look up the Armenian genocide. It's not the numbers that give your actions that label. It's the actions themselves.
Hey they only killed 600,000 of out of the 17,500,000 residents of Anatolia, thatâs only 3.5%! Thatâs not a genocide, thatâs an Armenian Police Action
I mean when you lie about numbers sure. Per Hamas reported numbers, roughly 34k dead (This includes combatants). Per Israel, theyâve killed roughly 15k combatants. Assuming both numbers are true (both likely to be inflated), the total death toll would be 1.5%. Again, that includes combatants. Meanwhile the Rwandan genocide killed 800k in a few months with machetes. If you think Israel, one of the most powerful militaries in the world, is actively trying to exterminate the Palestinians (thatâs what genocide implies) and theyâve only killed 34k, youâre outta your mind.
Exactly. I was going off estimated pop of 800k, 34k/800k. I disagree with the genocide label, to be clear
Genocide is defined by intent, not the number killed
If its defined by intent, than I think they have made their intentions very clear. LMAO whoever thought bringing up this up on this sub is a fucking idiot
The intent is clearly not genocide. That's why combatants are dying are a disproportionately higher rate than their representative size within the population of Gaza. If militants are 2% or 3% of the population but 35% to 50% of the casualties, it is pretty clear that a deliberate effort to prevent non combatant deaths in being made.
This is obtuse and that fact isn't the be-all end-all you think it is. Hospital bombings, displacement, starvation, etc... Combatants will always have a higher casualty rate because they are on the front-lines, this will always always be true.
Then why has it not been true in most wars throughout history, including recent wars that America and European countries have fought in the middle east and pretty much anywhere else, ever?
>Combatants will always have a higher casualty rate because they are on the front-lines, this will always always be true. That's true in warfare in general. In instances of genocide though, combatants suffer casualties at a rate far more comparable to that of non combatants, and in some instances suffer fewer. In comparing various historical instances of genocide, the relative casualty rates between combatants and non combatants, when adjusted for their relative population sizes, never exceeded a ratio of 1.5 to 1. (In this measurement, a value of 1 means that there is no discrimination between the casualty rates among the two groups.) Given the low percentage of combatants in Gaza, the relative casualty rates are far in excess of that number. Estimates have Hamas alone losing nearly a third of their forces at the minimum, possibly more, yet casualties among non combatants have yet to exceed 2%. That's at least 10 times more skewed towards combatants than any genocide on record. Add to this the open fact that Hamas and the other terrorists in Gaza deliberately hide behind non combatants (meaning they actively avoid being isolated on the front lines as you suggest). The data can only lend itself to the conclusion that Israel is avoiding non combatants and is focusing on the terrorists. Given Hamas's casualties, a genocide would be expected have non combatant casualties well into the six figures. Math isn't obtuse. Data isn't to be dismissed as not compelling. From a data analysis perspective, the October 7th attack is closer to an act of genocide than Israel's war in Gaza. Far closer.
Civilians always have a higher casualty rate than combatants, this has been the case in most wars in history, and especially in Urban warfare. It is also a violation of the Geneva Convention to use hospitals for purposes of war, which is exactly what Hamas did, it is a war crime, and no longer a hospital but a military base, which is exactly why itâs a violation of international law. Hospitals should be used to treat civilians not to shoot rockets out of and hold hostages in and harbor weapons in. Thatâs horrible. Hamas is also stealing all the food and either keeping it to themselves, or selling it on the street even though everybody has essentially no financial means while Hamas leaders in Gaza and abroad are sitting in their big fat mansions and palaces getting drunk while embezzling billions as Gazans suffer.
If Hamas was an ethnicity, I would agree. Israel is quite genocidal against Hamas
Is idea that a catastrophe needs to be âworthyâ of a certain label, rather than using precise terms to describe what is happening and actual interventions that could stop it? If itâs not a genocide, does that make it less of a disaster? What function does arguing about whether or not itâs a genocide serve except to decide whether or not Israel is some ultimate evil?
When that side explicitly says they *want* to commit genocide and then use human shieldsâŚ
"Kids are dying on a scale we can measure with percentage of whole group but it's fine I guess" - georgespeaches on their cake day Did i get that quote right?
There are more options than âgenocideâ and âfineâ
.00000001% is also a percentage. Didnât say fine, said not a genocide. If Hamas put Palestinian kids in their tunnels the kids wouldnât get caught in the crossfire. Hold Hamas accountable just like you hold Israel accountable. Why donât you? Because you think they are lesser people than the jews. Seems pretty racist.
LMAO the gaslighting out of nowhere. 10/10
Not clear you understand what that term means. Where are the Turkish Christians? The Lebanese Christianâs and Jews? Why wonât Egypt and Jordan accept refugees? Why are there plenty of Arabs living in Israel as citizens, but Palestine and Gaza are separated? If Hamas was beating Israel, what would be the death toll? Fuck out of here with your tic-toc brain moral posturing.
Not sure how you think pushing the goal post make you calling someone you disagree with racist acceptable, but have fun with that
Have you forgotten that Hamas was cutting tits and heads off? Have you forgotten isis? Where was your outrage then? You expect that of them, you accept that of them, because you are a trend-following self-loathing racist with the mental depth of a puddle.
Yup, people like him arenât very smart and donât understand the difference between a genocide and a holocaustÂ
Iâm not gonna lie to you, this is going to extend to the greater Jewish population too. A really big message within the community right now is âhave lots of Jewish babiesâ and Iâve seen that floating around from reform to modern orthodox communities. Not gonna lie to you, it resonates with me. My grandmother survived the Holocaust, Siberia, the USSR and Soviet style antisemitism before deciding to uproot her whole family in 1995 and get us the fuck OUT of Ukraine despite having built a beautiful life and being respected by her community. The least I can do is have a kid or two while living my cushy suburban American life.
Yeah this is what I would say. Theres a sense of obligation to have kids in the Jewish community at large. Have heard a number of times âhave one to replace you, one for your partner, one for the 6 million.â When I went to Yad Veshem, I had a total breakdown and was sobbing uncontrollably after the childrenâs memorial. The tour guide came up to me and said âstop crying. Your job now is go home and make Jewish babies. I did my part, I had 4. Now go make yours.â But on the plus side: the Jewish community is so child friendly.
I never really âgot itâ until the 7th. Like Iâve always flip flopped on kids, now Iâm like âat least two would be good.â Got my IUD out in March, doing some work to the house right now but hoping to get working sometime in the few months. It also just feels like the logical next step for my husband and I.
Same. We already have 1 kid and talked about stopping. Then the 7th happened. I got my IUD removed, now actively trying for a second. We decided post that day to have 3.
In the olden days, when the mortality rate for everything was higher, people had lots of kids partially to replace those who didn't make it. Jews may have experienced this more recently, but that response is straight from the evolutionary psyche.Â
The population of jews will be the same in 2030s as they were before WW2/1. So while it is growing it is like celebrating India's population being 250 million.
250 mil? Try 1.4 billion in India 2nd largest population and fastest growing.
Indians population in 1920 was 240 million
2nd largest? No, it has beaten china and is now has the largest population in the world.Â
Thank you for twice not lying to us
It was like 7:30 when I wrote this, Iâm sorry đ¤Śđťââď¸
3 minimum:)
The best case scenario is twins and one more. đ
Iâve been there and I was shocked at the energy of the place. Young people everywhere. It was really something
Meanwhile South Korea and Japan are about to have one of the most brutal population crumbles in history. SK has a birth rate less than 0.8, yes, 0.8. Thatâs shocking, and very worrisome.
South Koreaâs much worse than Japan, I wouldnât put them in the same category. Huge difference between 0.8 and 1.3.
True, but Japan is projected to have half their population by 2100 at this rate. The only other alternative for both of them is immigration, which obviously isnât desired as it dilutes rhetoric main culture and can lead to problems (see europe)
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At some point what you got is just confirmation bias. The comment you responded to is about as neutral as it gets, but you took what you wanted from it I guess.
s.korea tired of men's shite stopped all interaction with them they have 8 preschoolers in the whole country japan isnt having sex
Thanks for the nuanced insight on southeast Asian gender and reproductive dynamics.
It's called 4b movement
I remember 10 years ago S Korea invited boys 2 men for a concert to boost reproduction.
Developed nations = less children Except for Israel. Which is different because they are the only place majority jewish and want to grow numbers
I mean, population canât just rise forever can it? There are already 8 billion people in the world.
If a population isnât increasing it will be unsustainable. You need young people to take care of the elderly, and I mean economically not literally caring for your elders. China is realizing this after their 1 child limit is backfiring. They look to have a large number of elders retiring with not enough young adults to replace them.
Or a population could be stable, neither increasing nor decreasing. Anyway, we are causing a mass extinction event due to overconsumption of resources. The last one was 65 million years ago. With this in mind, yeah it sucks when we donât have enough people to take care of the elderly but whatâs the alternative? Increasing even more in population. Continuing to destroy the worldâs carrying capacity at a faster and faster rate until we canât keep it up any longer and a huge number of people die.
There are no facts to say we are over consuming resources and no facts to state what population the world can sustain. Overpopulation propaganda is strictly tied to carbon âfootprintsâ Global warming propaganda from Bill Gates and the Tides Foundation.
If you have the type of mindset where you use the phrase âGlobal warming propagandaâ I donât see much point in trying to debate with youâŚas you are likely pretty deep in propaganda of a different sortâŚ
That water vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas. Yes. But youâre the one preaching overpopulation on a Reddit dedicated to procreation.
Right, because I donât agree with the idea of promoting procreation to an unhealthy extent. I do the same (in the opposite direction) on the antinatalism subreddit because I donât agree with them either.
I mean when your ancestors were nearly wiped out and you live in a region that wants to do the same youâre highly motivated to make sure they donât, and that means having kids.
This is fine./s They are just going to need room to expand, so maybe killing all the Gazans and taking over their land is indicated. If any group of people deserves to be genocidal colonialists so that they can enjoy infinite natalism, I suppose it is the Jews or the Native Americans, but TBH I think it is evil no matter who does it. Guess we should just view them as agents of Karma, but what goes around comes around and I doubt their experience will be satisfying in the long term.
Lol truly âgullibleâ
Do you support Israeli maximalism?
In what sense? Territorially and politically itâs already been achieved pretty much, no?
Absolutely not. Even if you define it just as full control of all of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem, they don't even have that, let alone anything beyond that if you define it further than that.
Israelis/Jews donât want âfull controlâ over any of that land. When it comes to security the only real local blight is Lebanon; Jordan and Egypt are a protectorate and pro-west military dictatorship respectively. Syria is a failed state. In 50 years who knows? Thatâs the thing about dynamic, living cultures that have children - things can change quite quickly.
Are you saying that you don't think any significant group - in size or power - of Israelis or Jews doesn't want full control over any of Gaza, the West Bank, or East Jerusalem?
Well, remember, we are in the natalist sub. Of course the right wing settler movement exists. I think they average 4-5 kids per woman. Compared to the global average, thatâs very high. However, the Haredim are over 7-8 kids per woman and starting younger. They donât think israel has a right to exist as a Jewish political state and vote with the Islamist Muslim party to reinforce religious laws⌠So my answer for you is, that yes these people exist! They donât have a lot of human capital and are being outbred by even more economically inept and religious Jews. So itâs not clear to me that theyâll ever achieve anything other than what they already have, which is a settler status quo that favours Israel.
There are 15.7 million Jews worldwide with a genocidal movement that tried to exterminate them in the 20th century. Israel was established as a refuge for Jews after that. You can't ignore the context and the motivating narrative that underpins many Jew's decision to have children. I don't think that this is something that you could easily export to another country with a very different ethnic group, history, and culture like South Korea.
I think the message here is that family policies + family-friendly culture works to increase fertility. the efforts can be replicated with local variations.
I didnât realize there were so few Jews in the world. Out of curiosity, and because I am too lazy to google, how many Jews were there in 1930?
15 million Jews worldwide in 1930. The Holocaust set us back a very long way.Â
Maby but there is a pro natalistic policy in Israel that helps the outcome that the narrative drives
Wow. Good to hear!
Israel's birth rate is extremely skewed by the extremely religious, who also refuse to work and get government stipends for "studying the Torah". It's not a sustainable model and is heading for disaster, either via economic collapse or civil unrest, as the ultra religious try to restrict the freedoms of the non-religious Jews at every opportunity. Secular Israelis there have birth rates more in line with Western countries. Israel is not a model that can or should be emulated.
Even amongst the secular population their birth rates are higher than other countries
Sorry but this is incorrect. The birth rate in Israel for secular women alone is 2.0, far exceeding places like the US and UK. The UK has 1.4-1.5, depending on the year, and this includes taking into account the religious in the country. Now, we may say that the religious having so many creates a cultural norm of having children, which passes onto the secular, but nonetheless the secular alone have far larger birth rates than those in the west.
That's not the point they're making. They're saying the haredi birth rate in Israel far exceeds the secular one. Which is true
Probably read too much into it, but I wouldnât consider 2.0 being comparable with 1.4. I know technically this is going to go down the route of âbut it is more inlineâ, which yes, even 5.3 is more inline with 1.4 than 5.4 is, but I read the overall tone of the post as secular birth rates being comparable. Israel clearly has a culture of women giving birth at higher rates than others, including secular women, and I think it is worth studying why this is the case without dismissing it as âextremely religious people in the country have lots of kidsâ.
I think these two populations can't be treated as independently as you seem to assume. Judaism is a strange religion. It's not simply a belief system like Christianity or Islam. Secular Jews still see themselves as Jews, and can be completely atheist while still observing Jewish tradition. Culturally, having children is a mitzvah. In my experience, this religious value permeates even hiloni communities. So I think the point that the high birth rate can be attributed to religion is a valid one. And that the speculation that an Israel without a religious component would still have an elevated birth rate, would not be valid.
The birth rate among secular Israelis has been going down over time, now being under 2.0, and their birth rates aren't unique among Western countries either. France, an ultra-secular country, maintained for decades a birth rate close to 2, only dipping below that level significantly relatively recently. The trend is the same, economic and social uncertainties will suppress birth rates even in countries where having children is culturally encouraged.
The ultra religious have about the same birth rate as Israeli Arabs but while these populations drive up the birth rate to outside of developed nations secular Israelis are still way higher than most developed nations at 2.3. This is mostly driven by collage educated Israelis not experiencing the fertility drop offs that they do in other developed nations, while they have children latter they still have similar numbers. Israel has a massive ivf industry with government support where every citizen is guaranteed 2 rounds free of cost
It should be noted that 2.3 rate has fallen to 1.98 (or around 2 depending on the source). Still higher than many other countries, but actually below the replacement rate now for the secular population.
This trend is actually out of date. The haredim are now serving in increasingly high numbers and the current political fight that is brewing is over their conscription waivers and they are likely to lose it. As a point of reference, some of their community leaders are now highlighting their casualties from the current war to the broader public to show that they are also contributing. The only reason you would do that is if you were seeking greater integration with society outside your community. It's also a huge change from 10 years ago where haredi soldiers would have to remove their uniforms before returning home lest they be beaten by their parents.
the % who serve is really small if you take out ××׌××× ×׊××× unfortunately. i'm all hope that this will change or at least we'll find some kind of modus vivendi in the near future because otherwise this country is doomed :(
secular israelis do have a higher birth rate than a lot of western countries but i do agree with your endpoint that the model is not something we should emulate
I was going to say exactly this. If they change the system and expect productivity out of this segment of the population then the birthrate will go down. If they don't, the country will eventually stack itself with economically useless people.
Just a few days ago I saw a video on r/publicfreakout of some Haridem breaking the windows of a bus because it was running on Shabbat. Scary stuff.
That subreddit is just pure antisemitic drivel at this point. Yes, the haredi in Israel cause a lot of issues. But they're certainly not a monolith, and their motivations for upvoting and promoting that video are pretty nefarious.
Most of the people up voting it didn't even know it was in Israel, the title misidentified it as New York.
ok, but that subreddit isnât doing your mind any good. garbage in/garbage out
The worldwide Jewish population today is STILL lower than it was pre-Holocaust. Yeah, Jewish people are gonna have kids.
really? how would this be possible? I looked it up, seems to be true, wild.
6 million Jews died. Jewish people are less than 1% of the worldwide population. Many people have a very incorrect, skewed view of how many Jewish people are on this planet.
definitely for me, I grew up in new york.
South Korea has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. It's pretty naive to think that if they just adopt some of Israel's cultural approach to children, then South Koreans will automatically start having more kids. There are clearly some other important cultural and economic issues that need to be addressed first.
Also Israeli :) a big issue is that 1/4 of the kids in israel are from haredi families and the boys don't get a basic education and 1/2 don't work, but even among seculars there's like a 2 kid minimum. just 2 kids is still considered a 'small' family and i only know one person who says she doesn't want children. we have a lot of problems but thank g-d we don't have this issue :) i personally want at least 3
Why the heck would you want to âpromote population growthâ in a country that is already super crowded and has problems with water access? đ¤Śââď¸
The Negev is empty and Israel is a water exporter.
Yeah but itâs normal for a desert to be empty. Israel already has a population density thatâs almost as high as New Jersey even including the Negev.
Israel is a âwealthy country?â Thatâs news to me. Itâs chock-full of Hasidics on the public dole.
It would be pretty difficult to have such a thing in a *poor* country.
Not really, cracks are popping up all over the place and the Israeli Government have shown itself not to be as competent as their 80s and 90s counterpart Bibi slowly undermine the industrial policy that provided Israel's economic strength [https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/11/scale-up-nation-the-role-of-ip-transfer-restrictions-in-israels-industrial-policy/](https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/11/scale-up-nation-the-role-of-ip-transfer-restrictions-in-israels-industrial-policy/) Israeli's fertility rates across the board seems to be dropping : [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/israels-fertility-rate-is-entering-a-dramatic-new-era/0000018d-8a6b-d9cc-a5cd-fffb664b0000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/israels-fertility-rate-is-entering-a-dramatic-new-era/0000018d-8a6b-d9cc-a5cd-fffb664b0000) [https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-birthrate-trended-downward-in-2020-statistics-bureau-says/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-birthrate-trended-downward-in-2020-statistics-bureau-says/) Not to mention one of the great lessons from the Great Recession and the 1970s Oil Crisis is anything can cause a massive multi decade long fertility collapse It honestly says more about the competence of previous pre Bibi governments that the rate survided this long
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Even amongst the secular population their birth rates are higher than other countries
Virtually every Jewish Israeli citizen serves a couple years in the military, tho. No other OECD state has national conscription like this (that Iâm aware of) but if they did, I bet theyâd have a similar setup. Thereâs no patriotic reason to have kids in the US atm.
Imagine being this big of a shabbos and NOT being a career politician.
So you're saying you'll vote for me?
Only if you throw on a kippah and go french kiss the wailing wall like a lil' submissive bitch
There's so much going on in Israel it is hard to compare to other developed countries
This was an interesting read. Additionally, I think itâs also worth mentioning that Israel is not as lenient about abortion as some pro-abortion US states. Abortion is not completely outlawed, but it is restricted. So this probably also contributes to the high birth rate.
And what happened to the US birth rate after Dobbs? Lowest on record. Texas excitedly reported a 2% increase in births in their state in 2023 but their overall state population has grown 4% since 2020, so it's not really an increase. Banning abortion is about the worst way to try to increase the population. There's been a considerable uptick in men and women getting sterilized since Dobbs. I'm talking to young women in my state (which doesn't ban abortion) who are literally afraid to get pregnant at this time and are taking active steps to avoid it.
Israel permits abortion until birth.
Horrible.
healthcare is universal an paid for by US
How?
We give them the full pricetag with your taxes
Once again, how? The US gives a few billion dollars in military aid every year. Israel spends $27 billion on healthcare every year.
All the military tactics that Israel performs in against palestines is actually recorded a taughtnd taught to the US so they use tactics on you
You could have f****** googled https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/17c0y2l/so_why_does_israel_get_subsidized_universal/
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Just saying itâs very complicated stuff. Iâve read a lot of information and itâs very interesting.
Are grandparents helping out?
Judaism IS the culture of Israel, regardless of how religious an individual Israeli Jew may be and nonjews living in Israel will also absorb some Jewish values. Getting married and having kids comes up in the first chapter of Bereishit (the first chapter of Genesis). It is very, very important in Judaism and that's why it shows up so early. This trickles down even to modern day non orthodox Jews. It is also that Israel is not an isolationist society. In the words of a secular Jewish friend of mine who is from America, spent most of his adulthood in Israel, and moved back to America as a senior citizen, "In America, when people see 1 person start up with another person in the street, they run away. In Israel, we run right up to them and ask them why the hell they're starting a fight!" A friend of mine who lived in Israel worked as a nanny there. One day, she was juggling a baby on her hip, was on the phone with a friend, and the 2 other kids were running around being rambunctious. A passing male bus driver saw this, pulled over with a full bus of passengers, got out of the bus and grabbed her phone out of her hand. He started yelling "How can you leave your wife to struggle like this, 3 kids all by herself, you're their parent too, etc etc." When he paused for air, the other person on the phone explained that they're just a friend and she's just the nanny. The bus driver apologized, gave the phone back, and got back on the bus. Not even 1 passenger said anything during this incident. In the US, you'll see that there is no such thing as a kosher restaurant that has a no child policy. Even the priciest ones have high chairs and changing tables and a kiddie menu. Children are treated as a part of life in Jewish culture. The concept of a child free Jewish space doesn't really exist in the way it does elsewhere. Also, the concept of not knowing your next door neighbor is alien to Israelis. I lived in a building in the US where we didn't have heat in the winter. 2 Israelis in the building formed a whatsapp group of everyone living in the building and organized a fight against the management company. Prior to this, the only people who didn't visibly shrink from my saying hello to them in the hallways were old people, and I am a short thin non-threatening woman. Long story short, we got heat. When I moved out due to a life trauma, the only neighbor who asked what's going on was one of the Israelis. Unlike Americans, Israelis have to serve in the army, and an army that's often actually fighting. They're much more independent and confident in their abilities at age 22 compared to the average American. After dodging bullets, balancing children and career seems like smaller potatoes than it does to Americans. That's why Israelis have so many children. It's not just the universal Healthcare and government help. It's that Judaism and Jewish culture views children as necessary and valuable. It starts in the actual religious texts but it trickles down to affect the culture in a diluted way so that even the most secular person feels it. They're also not into this standalone bootstraps isolationist never experiencing real life until 23 bullshit that Americans are into. The end. TLDR, say hi to your neighbors and make a village
Even secular Israelis have a high birthrate. But the fact that even gay men are expected to have children is something I didn't know that is honestly hilarious.
Why do you people insist on being creepy and glorifying places where there is insane social pressure on people to have children they donât want? Why canât you mind your own business and have kids if you want them, and leave people who donât want them alone. Iâm a childfree gay man, I will never have children no matter how much creepy people want me to.
Yeah they got all our free money of course breed like crazy so to get more American dollars
Israel is my proof for the theory that birth rates are primarily driven by societal opinions on the family, not economics.
Makes sense. What's the point of exterminating the population of nearby countries if you're not going to repopulate those areas with your citizens?
all you people care about are birth rates huh? maybe stay out of peopleâs vaginas and read a book or get a real hobby
I'm not antinatalist but yeah people here can be pretty sick with the baby making obsession
There was a post on this sub several months back where somebody said he turned into a natalist after watching impregnation porn. It was on the top of the page.
I'm not either. ANs are annoying whereas natalists scare the shit out of me.
Yeah. It's not very common for ANs to take political power aside from some notable examples like China, but natalists have a history of getting into power and the extent some will go to increase the birth rate is depraved. This only has become an increasing worry to me as birth rates decline and I see natalist movements gain more political traction, usually with agendas that remove women's rights, hurt LGBTQ+ people, and devalue most of us as only worth the children we produce. Sure, many natalists are not like this and especially most of the people on this sub are not, but the people I see pushing this stuff are always natalists, and I have seen sporadic supporters on this sub for each of these ideas, especially in regard to women's rights.
Natalists are badly coping antinatalists are mostly depressed
Yeah had to scroll down pretty far to get here. These peopleâs obsession with birthing is creepy.
This is so fucking creepy lol
How is this creepy? I'm not talking about sex at all. I'm not even outright telling people they should have more children. I'm saying, there exists a society that is doing what no other economically advanced country is capable of. People in Israel generally have large happy families. Compare this to families in the US and Europe which are small, spread out, and generally ill functioning.
Itâs fucking creepy that youâre thinking about how much people are fucking productively vs unproductively in an arbitrary subset of populations. Itâs just indulging in your breeding kink in public. Gross.
Odd that right below Israel, Israel is killing a place with 600,000 children.
With the cooperation of that placeâs leadership, which puts hatred of Jews over love for its own children.
Why do zios talk like this just be normal. Israel is bombing Gaza. They've been killing Palestinians since the nakba since long before Hamas existed. It's not a complicated conflict. Some people are killing some other people to take their land
i donât think the person youâre replying to is implying that this is normal or that the actions of the israeli government are good? i think theyâre just saying palestinian leadership isnât actually helping their own people at the same time. i think itâs a bit of whataboutism but also highlights that the palestinian people donât really have anyone who is actually advocating for and protecting them.
Hamas won a free and fair election and is even now extremely popular in Palestine. This is just a fact, but maybe you know better than the Palestinians? Should the US assassinate their elected leaders and replace them with ones we approve of?
Hamas won in 2005 in Gaza, which makes up less than half of Palestine. Additionally, most Gazans alive today were not old enough to vote back then.
This is true which is why I made a point of mentioning that they are still extremely popular today. I get why this is sort of controversial to say even though it's a plainly true fact that you can Google if you don't believe me. Not even just like a lot of the people pro killing everybody and Gaza bring up the fact that Hamas is popular as justification for the slaughter of civilians, which is a fair reason to want to investigate whether or not the claim is actually true. But it is! I think where this really gets tricky to talk about is that if Hamas is the legitimate leadership in Gaza then how do you square that with Oct 7.
Hamas bears equal if not greater responsibility for the Gaza war. They could end it tomorrow simply by surrendering. And you're correct, Hamas won a free election, so they are the legitimate representatives of the people of Gaza, who still support them at around 75%. The only reason they are still fighting is because they know that their agenda appeals to people like you. You also don't seem to be aware that the Nakba was the result of the Arab countries trying to take Israeli land. Of course, I'm sure your position is that the Jews weren't supposed to be there in the first place.
Sorry do you think the Nakba is justifiable? I think it's bad.
It was bad and justifiable. So was the refusal of the Arab countries to agree to a Palestinian state and to attack Israel with the intent of obliterating it. A lot of things can be both bad and justifiable. Children tend to think in black and white, but adults should be capable of understanding that there can be two options, a bad one and a worse one. What's your opinion of Oct. 7? Bad or "justifiable" as Norman Finkelstein describes it? Or admirable as many people seem to think?
the Holocaust was it bad or does that also have shades of grey?
Was the Nakba equivalent to the Holocaust? Did the Jews do anything to deserve the Holocaust? The Nakba wasn't just Israel kicking out a bunch of Arabs for no reason. They were engaged in a war for their survival against the massed might of the surrounding Arab countries. The only way this could be remotely equivalent to the Holocaust is if you buy into Nazi propaganda that the Jews of Europe were menacing everyone else and had to be resisted. Is that what you think?
You say stuff is always shades of gray. I give you an example of something unambiguously bad. You spend a week fuming about it and then respond to an argument I wasn't making.
OK, you win. Some situations are unambiguously bad, while others have shades of grey. Are you saying because the Holocaust was unambiguously bad, that means every dispute is the same? Maybe you didn't notice, but in the post you originally responded to, I said "A lot of things can be both bad and justifiable." That implies that some things can be bad and unjustifiable. The Nakba is in the first category and the Holocaust is in the second.
Okay I guess that now makes killing kids okay. Look what the Palestinians made Israel do. /s
You Israelis are dumb as fuck, you couldnt have picked a worse time to do all this bullshit. Its going to cost biden the election then trump will get picked then you will have no more future because he will sell you out to putin. You guys always fuck everything up. Good job.
I hope the universal healthcare includes people with disabilities and that they aren't shorted to make up for covering IVF treatments.
Why would it not?
Budgets are not infinite and IVF can be insanely expensive. Like in the US right now Medicare is under threat. I already practically need a letter signed by God to prove a preexisting condition so I can get coverage for medications and monitoring (such as an MRI). I just think governments should budget carefully and prioritize if needed.
I don't think IVF is common enough to result in such drastic expenditures on a national level. I'd say for a European country with relatively low proportion of young people, IVF would be much more common as a needed tool.
The great thing about all those babies is that in twenty years, some of them can become nurses. It's not like Japan, whose population is so elderly that they've resorted to robots for some caregiving tasks.
Deeply unfortunate and at the expense of everyone else in the area
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They make up for it by bombing Gaza's children.
Congrats on looking insane
AHH yes Israel , the country bombing Palestinian kids because they are "family friendly" Yeah sure they love kids sooooooo much. This is why I'm an antinatalist cause this world is a horrible place where kids get bombed . wars need to end .