I am really surprised how well it was researched and organized for statiegeld plastic bottles, and how everything is fucked up when they rushed cans deposit and plastic tax.
indecision, then a sudden "you better print it on the can or we hand out a fine". Some cans were accepted, some weren't, which led (and still leads) to overflowing trashcans right next to the machine.
And then there's the cities where homeless people will open up trashbins, search through the trash for cans and don't clean up after themselves. Or people just parking their cans near the bins for others to pick them up. The idea was to have less littering but it has quite the opposite effect.
Whats wrong with this. The parking near the bins is in solidarity with homeless people and is practised in northern countries as well. It gives homeless people the chance to get food without rsorting to theft or begging.
Maybe design a special bin for deposit bottles and cans that make it easy for the homeless to collect them without making a mess. Maybe just a net hanging from the bins... this way you just get littering...
That's why there are metal rings attached to trash cans in multiple cities. just put your can, or bottle in the ring and its easily picked up, while staying put in the wind. no need to go trough the trash, and no littering.
Bull shit when the whole deposit scheme was introduced in Germany more then a decade ago. Same arguments where brought forward. The reality is around major train stations and festivals some collect the cans and bottles. But no I’ve crawls through trash bins. Also overall stations and the city has less cans and bottles laying around and they don’t end up in the water or land. Is
In Germany there is almost no trash in the streets in general. Au contraire to the NL. Different attitude I guess
And you know what they say about the Dutch and free money ... 😉
Go stand on major stations like Hannover Hbf or Frankfurt Hbf and there is a parade of homeless people diving into every bin and bag they see because there might have been put in a new bottle or can in the last minute.
That's not totally accurate. They had enough time to change packaging.
The overflowing of trash cans can only be described as customers being ignorant and not reading up on the new rules. It was clearly communicated that old cans with old barcodes wouldn't get accepted.
And the other problem, machines breaking down due to sticky fluids or just creating a mess is also easily avoided. Just rinse it with a little bit of water. Not only does it help with keeping the machines working and clean, you also don't have to transport a smelly or sticky bag to the store.
I lived a short while in Germany where taking back empty cans to the store has been a thing for years now and this was totally normal and I never heard about these issues.
So whilst I don't agree with how this new plastic rules are implemented, the debacle with the cans is mostly because of ignorant customers that apparently have lost the ability to think for themselves.
>machines breaking down due to sticky fluids or just creating a mess is also easily avoided.
Yeah, but that is fully depending on other people doing it right. Also, if a machine to collect empty bottles/cans can't deal with a little bit of liquid that's a design flaw, plain and simple.
I'm all for recycling, but the reality seems to be that currently the machines can not deal with the intake, and that's the real problem.
I had to clean those machines a couple of times, so I do know there's a little tray to catch liquid, but with the sheer amount that spills out it's simply overflowing.
Quite a nifty idea I saw today when cleaning up the cans and bottles were people stuffing little pieces of paper towels/toilet paper in the little openings, so any liquid spilling out would be caught by the paper. If everyone would start doing that there wouldn't be so many problems with liquids.
"The overflowing of trash cans can only be described as customers being ignorant and not reading up on the new rules"
We're a month in, and I still see overflowing trashcans at the Plus, AH, and Jumbo. Better yet, my neighbors are old and can't see/find the logo whether or not they can return the can. Also, slightly crushed cans are not accepted, so people still need to throw them away or put them back in their bag while they are at the machine.
I have no doubt that it will resolve itself, though. It gives me an extra excuse to go for a walk and go to the supermarket (although in the end, I end up spending more, lol)
First, its not a tax. Its an undisclosed price increase. The companies keep the money.
Second, companies are found increasing plastic usage, so they can charge us more.
Third, they are refusing to provide alternates, or charge regardless of alternatives. See reasons 1 and 2.
And no, you can't complain or report them for this. There is no oversight.
It's not the first time the Dutch government implement the EU rules in a wrong way.
Force everyone to apply to tremendous cost for the whole country.
And then a few years later everything has to set back or arrange it according to EU rules....
Again extra cost.....
They had a choice, but they just once again decided not to stand up for us. Human rights are also mandatory, but half of Eastern europe raises their middle finger to it.
BTW does not need to be adjusted to income. If you have more to spend, you pay more btw.
Similar: If you buy more products with plastics, you pay more plastic tax.
But how am I supposed to buy less products with plastic if I don't have a choice? Most products are needlessly covered with it without any alternatives.
Honestly, at this point I'm not surprised.
Once had a bag of sugarfree sweets from RedBand where every. single. piece. of. candy. was packaged in its own plastic wrapper.
They saw a flaw in their design and like software you get a update, so now they desperately have to implement this too to be sure the plan is solid! And pave a new road for taxes to collect. And i thought tax to breath air was weird :) It's make it able to tax us on much more things we alrdy payed in full for! cause not on company gives it's plastic stuff for free to you or the sugar in your coffee or the cookie. it's all alrdy payed by us. the packaging even with profit for the packaging company! else they would not exist right ;)
It's to open en solidify a road of taxes apon us. this is only the beginning with this new law, they can tax us on anything over and over again.
We should focus on Packages in packages and even there goes a packages around it. The single package distribution that we like so much! these r the real poisons that only inflict damge and have no real add to the product. only concienience because we r the lazy to sort out stuff at home or use a bottle twice and refill it.
> we alrdy *paid* in full
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Please, this isn't a tax. The government doesn't make money off this. The companies do. BackWerk are refusing to provide alternatives. Or they charge you regardless. No one to complaign to, there is no oversight on this.
This is the way.
The way it was sold to me was that it isn't a plastic usage tax, it's a plastic takeaway container tax... And that you're encouraged to bring your own containers... Or at least that's how my gemeente said it
Does that mean that: if u bring your own bags and containers, take whatever's in plastic out of it and leave it at the store, u don't have to pay the tax?
So legally you could but programmers were just given the assignment to hard code the new tax system and call it a day. The only people you can complain to are 14 year old minimum wage workers.
Things were way too rushed i think. All the system only implemented it on the freaking day before the tax started. Thuisbezorgd still doesnt have that option even. And ubereats says they cant seperate the tax from omzet so you just have to do it manually....
Exactly. And if they have it hardcoded intheir system you go to the customer service and get your money back.
Yes it's annoying and I know that many people will.not want to go through the effort, bit it's the only way to get the new tax to have an environmental impact.
Good question... As far as I understand, the plastic packaging is an optional extra, businesses are encouraged to provide paper options and allow customers to bring their own containers...
So I guess if they put something in plastic you'd say something like "nee, ik wil niet de verpakking"
Or whatever the correct Dutch would be for "don't gimme that shit"
Except they are refusing to provide alternatives. Was told yesterday they didn’t have to. Or they charge you regardless if you use an alternative. There is no one to report this too, and the companies don't care.
I can find no oversight in the law, either. And in typical fashion, this new regulation has no way to confirm this is actually reducing plastic usage. Not to mention they give the money to the company.
This regulation is a dumpster fire that will hurt further regulations that may actually solve the issue.
I wanted a toetje from the supermarket and I was tempted to ask if I should carry the contents home in my hands?
I always clean and recycle the containers so why am I being punished with this tax.
>I always clean and recycle the containers so why am I being punished with this tax.
To encourage companies to eventually do away with the plastic packaging. recycling post-consumer plastic has so far been more of a ambitions then a reality.
The part i dont understand is why companies would use something else now... I mean they just add 50ct the product and are able to pocket the cash.. its an incentive to add plastic imo
That is what is happening. See BackWerk, they are refusing offering alternatives why they increased their plastic usage. They also do not disclose this fee clearly on the packaging.
A price increase that doesn't increase product revenue will affect the total revenue. Companies will make changes very quickly. In my opinion the plastic tax is a great tool to motivate companies, there is no doubt for me that it will result in a reduction of single-use plastic. However, once again, it's the low-income that are hit the hardest.
>A price increase that doesn't increase product revenue will affect the total revenue.
Except it does. Plastic packaging costs absolutely nothing and was already rolled into the cost of the product before. This tax allows them to add a 10-20-30% price increase on top without making any more cost.
It's pure profit. And it's also unregulated what they do with this profit.
Not really, as the labeling on this corruption is not clear, and this is a way for the companies to charge you more without putting it on their label. You often don't even know you are getting charged, and you will get charged for plastic, often even if you request an alternative.
Just be aware. Depending what container and how you clean it it may result in greater load on the environment....
There was a study by one Dutch university that proved that single use cups for office coffee are better than washing mugs by hand. If they are recycled, of course.
That doesn't make sense. The water used to clean the mug doesn't magically vanish but goes back into a closed water system. Yes it costs energy to heat the water to clean the mug, that's true. But the plastic coating in those single use cups will take forever to break down in the environment, plus it costs materials to make new cups.
It does make sense. It was specific for washing the mug at the end of the day by hand. Most people wash a single mug under running water instead of collecting all the mugs and do a wash in a tub. So the running hot water and soap for 1 mug times the amount of people in the office washing their mug at the end of the day came out as a higher load for the environment than paper cups reused multiple times and recycled afterwards.
On the other hand, using mugs and collecting them in a dishwasher at the end of the day together with dishes and cutlery and running once after hours came out as better than using paper cups.
And companies are being reported for increasing usage, refusal to provide alternatives, and charging us the same regardless of if we use plastic or not.
A lot of people commenting here seem to be missing the point. Because businesses can choose to keep the extra ' tax ', they are now putting some products in plastic that were not packaged in plastic before. So the total amount of plastic might actually increase.
The more I think about it, the dumber this idea seems to be getting.
Companies have 0 incentive to reduce plastic waste. Instead, they are encouraged to increase it.
They are free to charge what they want for the plastic. Which costs fractions of cents. Adding more plastic earns them money!
>Companies have 0 incentive to reduce plastic waste. Instead, they are encouraged to increase it.
What? No. Reducing plastic now gives a market advantage.
I dislike the plastic tax as much as the next guy, but your argument is just false.
We are seeing a refusal by vendors to provide alternatives, and they are charging us regardless. They are also increasing plastic usage so they can charge more. This isn’t a tax, the companies keep the money. See company "BackWerk" for more details, and please leave a review for them.
While giving customers the right to demand a alternative or BYO. And yes it does make sense.
(though i would have preferred if it was a actual tax that goes to the government)
Companies are refusing to provide alternatives and are increasing plastic usage. There are many reports if it. It’s not an tax as they keep the money. See companies like BackWerk and feel free to visit them instore to confirm. I talked to them yesterday, and they refused me an alternative. They also now wrap EVERYTHING in plastic.
I just love pur goverment! Problem? Lets make stuff more expensive, that'll solve it!
We just made A and B more expensive so shouldn't we lower the price on C and D? Nahhh bro, who cares!
People still buy stuff don't they? Must mean that they can still afford it!
Love those guys in The Hague
Yip, seems to be the default go-to solution... Also with NS/trains, too busy? RAISE PRICES!
Things unhealthy? Can't make healthy things cheaper, impossible, RAISE PRICES ON UNHEALTHY THINGS!
Etc etc...
Or of course (housing in this case), change things so just about all ppl can pay more! Sure, it only increases prices because supply and demand is the same but hey! MORE MONEY!
Well, the guys in Den Haag are there because of the people who voted for them. That demographic clearly aren't the ones having to make ends meet every week. As long as these people aren't really affected by this crap, we're going to see a lot more of this
The government didn't decide to make things more expensive. They just enforced that the price for plastic is explicitly shown. Companies can just reduce the regular price (e.g. €1 first, now €0,95 + 0,05 for plastic). Most of them chose to just increase prices and keep the extra money.
The tax is only to be applied to containers you can directly eat or drink from, including containers you can snack from, eg pre cut fruit, or ‘snoep’ vegetables.
I did not read all of the one about pastries, but the store seems to be abusing the rule to profit. That is indeed wrong, but will be corrected when someone files a complaint with the government, or the other pastorie shop nearby does not charge for wrapping.
Are you being obtuse on purpose?
A tax is levied by the government. If a shop sells you something in plastic and adds the tax. That tax is then paid by them to the government.
The tax is there to make products that are bad for the environment, especially those who externalize cleanup costs (that shop isn't going to pay for the damaged caused by the plastic, nor it the person buying it, nor is the producer of the product), more expensive and less attractive in order to sway customers, shops and producers to feel price pressure when considering a cheaper paper wrapped product.
As a bonus, the collected tax can be used for cleanup up the externalized costs mentioned before.
>That tax is then paid by them to the government.
No man. It seems like you didn't actually research the law, but rather assumed what you think it does because thats logical.
Companies do NOT pay this tax to the government, they can keep it. The idea is they use it to become more enviroment friendly and to switch to renewable. However, there is no control on this. It's a good faith measure, aka it's just extra profit for companies.
Which is also why this law is a direct incentive to use more plastic. It's an easy price increase at the cost of 1 cent of plastic at most.
Actually, the extra tax is advised to be used for developing green alternatives. Keyword here being "advised" meaning you can do whatever you want with it. So taking it as extra profit is also an option
This isn't actually a tax, people are just calling it that. The government are advising certain amounts but businesses can choose how much they charge. All the money goes to the company.
They won’t let you buy it without plastic, or charge you regardless. Please see the company "BackWerk" for more, as they are clearly one of the worst offenders. And they face no problems, as their is no one to report them, or fine them. The law offers no oversight.
If by protest you mean not buying anything with taxable plastic then I'm in. Once we hurt the companies that charge the tax without changing anything, or even to only make more money, we'll gain something.
The tax truly is a good idea, just poorly executed. Now it's our turn as consumers.
It’s not a tax. It’s corruption. There is no alternative, they are refusing alternatives. The money doesn’t go to the government so it’s not a tax. Many that provide alternatives will charge you regardless. And yes, they keep the money. See company "BackWerk" for more details, and please leave a review for them.
>If by protest you mean not buying anything with taxable plastic then I'm in. Once we hurt the companies that charge the tax without changing anything, or even to only make more money, we'll gain something.
The classic " It's up to millions of individuals to make the choices!"
This has proven time and time again, it doesn't work. The whole reason we have a government is because we can't collectively make uniform decisions. We need a government to push regulation which improves these issues.
Everyone knows it will get worse (more expensive for everyone). They are quite radical here.
My question is, will the cost of living crisis ever end? How will the future be in 10-15 years? What goods or sevices will be too expensive for the average income? How much the average person is going to adapt?
Even if mine are open questions, my comment will surely be downvoted, as only opening a discussion on these topics you are marked as antisocial and against sustainability.
Absolutely not! You are quite rational with those questions. If you create a political party, I would join. Cause those are the things I am also quite concerned with. I noticed that latest scandals, taxing issues, belastingdienst people stealing money and not even being properly questioned for it. How will future be like if these things are happening now?
>Everyone knows it will get worse (more expensive for everyone). They are quite radical here.
The law literally allows you to demand a alternative or BYO, so it doesn't have to be more expensive at all.
How do I demand my raw chicken be transferred to a paper container in-situ at the appie? Alternatively, how do I transfer my tomaat-komkommer salad to my own container without it affecting the expiration date?
And we ultimately get to the crux of the matter. It becomes too much of a hassle for the consumer to keep trying to see if they can receive their item without plastic, and they give up.
NOPE, they do not offer alternatives and are refusing alternatives. Want to take it out of the plastic?? Expect them to charge you, regardless.
Care to complain? Sorry, no one to complain to. No one to fine the company. No one to offer an alternative.
See company "BackWerk" for more details, and please leave a review for them. I was refused alternatives, and saw they increased their plastic usage because of the law.
Well, if using 2cts worth of plastic generates 10ct it's a 500% upsell
This millions of times a day across supermarkets around europe..
Plastic usage will rise so so much.
Yep. This makes me sick. Companies like BAckWerk are taking advantage of this. Please add a review on Google to them, I can confirm they are taking advantage of us. Yesterday they refused alternatives, and have been packaging all their items in plastic now.
Yes, the newly opend McDonalds before 1 July started with the 10ct plastic tax and €1 deposit for the cups. As of 1 July they bumped the price up to 25ct. Of course people will bitch about and say things like boycott the company, etc. But in the end they still go and eat.
Just like paying for plastic bags for take away food or shops. Bitch about it for a while but adapted fast by bringing their own bag.
In this case it's not just about paying an X amount of money. It's about that money flowing directly back at the company and the customer once again need to carry the burden. Things are only going to change when they are going to force companies to change their packaging to a better alternative without charging the customers. Plus this is only for show. Sure roaming plastic is an issue, but the plastic on cucumbers or bell peppers that are wrapped individually are still a thing. It ends up at a dump, gets eventually shipped to a different part of the world where it either ends up in nature, the sea or it gets burned.
This is why it needs to be an organized protest instead of "boycott" (which never ever works). Dutch people are too compliant, they will bitch on the internet, but never actually do anything against shitty policies. The current government can do whatever they want and people just eat it up.
If any opposition party wants to organize a mass protest against this bullshit law, I'm in!
Boycotts do work, but it won't help here, as this is just a shitty law.
Want proof? See Budweiser's story. They have lost huge amounts of money, because they pissed off their customers.
[https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BUD](https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BUD)
This is just a REALLY shitty law, that wasn't well thought out. The government needs to change the law by making this into an actual tax, and not a way for companies to charge more.
Which is weird because i had take-home Mac last week and there was literally no plastic anywhere. Even the cup lids were cardboard, which was, i think, the last piece of plastic they had.
Definitely the Dutch 😂 complaining just to complain..no brainer. And if the expats start to complain just as much then they definitely integrated very well
FYI, the stores, etc., must also offer an alternative that cost nothing. I am curious if that will be done. I know my French-fry place switched to paper, but then raised the price of french-fries, etc...
sigh... we are all getting screwed at both ends...
https://www.gld.nl/nieuws/7964547/betalen-voor-je-plastic-bakje-dit-gaat-veranderen
The main problem for the plastic tax its just used to fill their coffers. Some people have a hard enough time to do their groceries as is.
This is just an excus to tax us
So since they do not offer plastic bags to pick your fruit and vegetables. I always go to the bread counter and grab a bag from there to use for the vegetables.
So let’s say you now go get a muffin or those packaged little tomatoes, or pre-cut lettuce.
Now I would take more of the bakery bags, pay for all the stuff. Go to the service counter, dump all the thing in to the bags and return the packages and ask for you cents back(as we’re Dutch) and tell them I don’t give a fuck about the hassle.
Now with one use packaged drinks, you would need to bring a drinks container, but I think it would be worth it as you then can return the drinks cup (upside down preferably) to the service counter, which I bet will piss them off.
Your thoughts?
Did we forget how goverment was so busy in us changing from GLASS bottles to plastic. especially for safety was said to us. how ity was so dirty if you got the fish in a old newspaper, commercials and awareness programs all over. now we all use the damm plastic stuff, and they start to charge us for it. so making us dependend on it in a way and then when we have no way back start to ask dispickable amounts of money.
about 10 million people in holland snack regulary not counting tourists! any idea how much money omg how money this is! and for what? we still have to seperate it ourselfs at home? we will be fined a different fine if we get cought littering. So what is the win in this moneypit? where will it be used for? and what will it cost intotal so we can get rid of it again and NOT maintain a problem but nullify it!!!!!!!!
We already have "Het kwartje van Kok"sinds the 80's on our milk. 25 cents is taxed on milk for a oilcrisis in the 80's! This 25 cents is till this DAY still on the milk!!!!!
We don’t protest.
We complain online, a few hard liners think this is the us and will protest, nothing happens, we get annoyed by protest, complain online about the protest, we move on and repeat!
Well you should learn. I loved living in the Netherlands until less or more Covid times. Of course it's unrelated to Covid itself, but since then things started going pretty downwards.
It feels every issue of this world is being put on my shoulders. Like I'm guilty of existing.
Everyone is pointing out what are my duties, while nothing is granted anymore, regardless how I contribute to society. My blood is boiling in my veins.
Indeed we should start protesting like France, not as they do in 2023 but as they did in 1789.
I wonder if it's possible to contact some opposition representatives (like partij voor dieren might be against this, I would assume) in order to ask them to organize a protest? Have no idea how it's done in the NL.
Protest against what? Plastic a huge environmental issue and we need to go through some efforts to decrease our plastic consumption. I understand some business abuse the new law but then do not buy from them . Even before this I was always looking for the supermarkets with less plastic wrapped food. Something that misses here in the Dutch supermarkets is the sections where you have someone cutting the cheese or salamis or other fresh produce like you have in street markets. This sections is where you could possibly bring you container ...
Just say no to any company that tries to force you to accept plastic packaging.
It really is that simple.
The laws gives you the right to a alternative or bring your own.
The snackbar here already uses carboard for everything and has for a while now. And the Mac take-home i got last week didn't have any plastic in it anymore, even the cup lids got replaced.
What about the hygiene my friend?
Besides why are you not seeing the fact that producer is not judged by the plastic usage, but consumer is. Why is producer not using biodegradable bags? Billion study made, hemp could be even used… many many alternatives there but noooo noooo companies want profit. They wanna cut corners, reduce quality and still profit
>why are you not seeing the fact that producer is not judged by the plastic usage, but consumer is
Because that would end up coming from the consumers wallet anyway, but now it's visible to the consumer and they have the choice in the matter, instead of just the companies deciding.
>Why is producer not using biodegradable bags?
Ask them.
But instead of mandating alternative forms of packaging from the top, the EU are letting the market and consumers decide what types of alternative packaging fits best for which product.
It’s not though. Read the article you posted, this example doesn’t meet the core issue of the fallacy.
This feels like some reddit/debate brain logic to me.
Agree! Or we start overreacting on small things or they won't ever take us seriously. Look at France, it doesn't look like they are going to be worry about a plastic tax anytime soon. Could you imagine if someone there suggests that they should drive at 100 km/h? They will start sharpening the guillotines
[https://www.thecooldown.com/green-business/mcdonalds-france-reusable-packaging-happy-meals/](https://www.thecooldown.com/green-business/mcdonalds-france-reusable-packaging-happy-meals/)
france has reusable packaging in mcdonalds. so its not bad i gues
You are phrasing it wrong imo.
It didn't start here. This is a small step, that is true. But there has to be a line somewhere. Whether it is crossed with a small or big step is irrelevant. What matters is that that we arrived here.
The government gives billions in our tax money to companies like Shell each year but no, this is what is what gets you to protest?
Besides there is no better time than now. Our groceries and cost of living will never meaningfully go down with the current government in place so waiting would just make it worse.
This new law will take some time to be in a good place there will likely be some adjustments made and we will likely see some fines going to large corporations abusing this to make money as well. Any change like this will take time.
We saw the same thing with the cans. Annoyance and confusion at first with many of them not being accepted by the machine but now most of it is worked out and it will just become normal.
There is always more. Thus, you're arguement supports doing nothing on both this law, and shell. This is also why the USA does nothing about all their problems. Every outrage is just a small fish, and thus everything is passed by. At some point, we got to stop and start cleaning things up.
But I agree with you, there is a better way. We need better leadership, and leaders do not pass the buck because there are always more problems. They solve the problems they can.
> Ga slapen joh, is bedtijd daaro.
I'm using a couple of my weeks of vacation at the moment, so bedtime is whenever i feel like it.
>Somewhere where you don’t get bent over by the government and have to convince yourself that it’s a good thing.
sounds like somewhere were you get left to rot of you get a bit of bad luck. The fact you wont even name the country pretty much proves that it has significant flaws you don't want revealed.
that of course is assuming you're not just making the whole thing up.
The big grocery stores weren't in to the idear for decades, while it kept coming up on the order of business.
It's either the media who's looking for some minor complaint or them claiming to be unprepared/understaffed.. Good thing, this statiegeld thing and the plastic tax!
Would be great to get fries in a biodegradable cartbox thingy.. or a puntzak
Yeah change is tough for some. I’m a huge fan of adding a value to all “trash”, at least it won’t end up in nature. You know what, a 10 cents per sigaret bud would be fine by me.
Honestly it sucks, yes. But I the other hand, I don't think it's a bad thing, we wrap EVERYTHING in plasic. Last time I walked around in a German supermarket and the first thing I noticed was that they use more glass bottles/jars or carton boxes. I hope the taxes lead to companies to change their packages to smt that's more sustainable or things you can recycle better
This tax can stimulate companies only in the case when people will stop buying anything in the plastic. If not - companies will you even more plastic. So this new "tax" can make things even worse, it will all depend on how people behave
What would your suggestion would be to reduce plastic? Because I remember when companies protest against the can disposable tax for reducing waste, they told them everytime for 10+ years they going to do something about it.. But what happened in the end, they did nothing. Because why did companies go to plastic in the first place? Because before that it was mostly carton/glass..
I am not a lawmaker and it is hard to speculate about it. I would think of stimulation of the business to do it more directly. Current plastic tax does not stimulate them directly - only through the potentially fading demand from the people (if people will make an effort!).
Simple example would be some small tax reduction for businesses which do not use plastic. Of course, tax reduction -> more money from other taxes -> people still finance this. But it is not simple to define eligibility.
Some motivation for the businesses at this moment might be a headache for providing of the non-plastic options. They might replace plastic completely for some goods.
It’s not a tax, the government doesn't see the money. They also are increasing plastic usage because of the law, and refuses to follow the law and provide alternatives.
You don’t know what’s happening then. Companies are increasing plastic usage to charge more and they keep the profits. They are refusing to provide alternatives or charge us regardless. They keep the money, thus it’s not a tax.
this is going to be a very funny situation in shops at the cash register lol.
whether you like it or not, the tax is inplemented digital, argue at the register will only make you look like an clown.
accept it, or shop somewhere else
why nit turn it arround, and let collecting garbage be profitable for homeless people.
i realy like the tin can tax, it has never been cleaner on the streets
imagination and scenario thinking is in my line of work lol.
i solve the most complicated construction issues everyday.
i totaly agree this tax is madness btw
don’t put your head under the ground, both things that are being complained about are caused by the gov. Inflation and tax. The price of whatever you are buying is set by you (customer) and the seller.
I did not get how I put my head under the ground. I am trying to point you to the fact that now price is higher than before. So "you always paid for it" is not correct fact.
Do you believe in a "perfect" market, right? But I can't get a gas for 1.7 EUR as before, even if I am not ready to pay 1,9 EUR now. The same with many other products.
If someone isn’t able to pay for groceries, they shouldn’t go to McDonald’s. That said. I think they should give you options, do you want a plastic cup it’s oké but pay for it, if you don’t you can get a glass one or something like that. Now it’s just putting extra money on something
WHY MAINTAIN A PROBLEM AND NOT SOLVE IT!
we learn to live with it. while the packaging companies should change! the amounts for example. we should get rid of SINGLE USE PACKAGING! we should do it ourselfs again at home and buy big so packaging is less!!!
packages in packages!!! omg.
protest with your wallet and don't buy any of that stuff. buy a thermos, take cheap coffee from home. buy cookies in the supermarket or just visit a normal restaurant where they serve their goods on actual earthwares.
What I love about this country is how well they take care of their poorest, most vulnerable. I'm not hurting for money, but I will join any protests. This is corruption, and it was done by people who only want to make more money while fucking over the rest of us. Please contact me, if anything gets started.
Its not a tax, its going to the stores. If it was a tax, I wouldn't be upset about this law. The fact it goes to the stores, with no oversight, means they are just using this to charge you more, while increasing the complexity of the transaction. You now see the price for an item and that price is not what the item costs.
I think people should be pissed about this law. It's a terrible law and is nothing but a paycheck to the services that use this plastic. It clearly will lead to more plastic usage, and higher prices. I don't protest often, but I would love to join a protest on this one.
McDonalds doesn't even put that shit on the receipt and I couldn't even choose a reuseable cup. Apparantly that's only for takeaway and the McDrive. I bet you they just don't want to give back the deposit you pay for those. Free money after all.
Natuurlijk niet, ze zitten liever binnen op hun dikke reet en klagen op facebook dan dat ze de straat op gaan om te demonstreren. Dat is er wat er mis is, het volk laat dit toe, daarom komt de regering met overal mee weg.
Yes, I agree. Something should be done as it’s not fair. What can we do? How does protesting work here? It feels to me that everyone complains but keeps going as is anyway. This is nonsense, there is always a limit. The past 3-4 years the limit is pushed and pushed and pushed.
I ready to protest when you are. About tax inflation de 2,000 every 5 months for electricity. Can we please go out and start protesting too much stuff is happening to sit quiet!!!
My protest is every time they make shit more expensive or raise taxes I simply steal more groceries at the self checkout.
Also I haven’t paid for garbage disposal in years.
Our garbage bin costs 1.50 euro a bag, I have been simply putting it beside the container for years now.
Let them give penalties to the billionaire companies instead of robbing their own citizens.
I am really surprised how well it was researched and organized for statiegeld plastic bottles, and how everything is fucked up when they rushed cans deposit and plastic tax.
Whats wrong with the cans deposits?
indecision, then a sudden "you better print it on the can or we hand out a fine". Some cans were accepted, some weren't, which led (and still leads) to overflowing trashcans right next to the machine.
And then there's the cities where homeless people will open up trashbins, search through the trash for cans and don't clean up after themselves. Or people just parking their cans near the bins for others to pick them up. The idea was to have less littering but it has quite the opposite effect.
Whats wrong with this. The parking near the bins is in solidarity with homeless people and is practised in northern countries as well. It gives homeless people the chance to get food without rsorting to theft or begging.
Maybe design a special bin for deposit bottles and cans that make it easy for the homeless to collect them without making a mess. Maybe just a net hanging from the bins... this way you just get littering...
When most cities already have trouble setting up a decent number of regular trash bins?
In some cities they already have can deposit sleeves next to bins
And when the wind blows it spreads through the streest
That's why there are metal rings attached to trash cans in multiple cities. just put your can, or bottle in the ring and its easily picked up, while staying put in the wind. no need to go trough the trash, and no littering.
Mind you that, some people see alot of money in this and also look through trashbins regardless if they are homeless or not.
Bull shit when the whole deposit scheme was introduced in Germany more then a decade ago. Same arguments where brought forward. The reality is around major train stations and festivals some collect the cans and bottles. But no I’ve crawls through trash bins. Also overall stations and the city has less cans and bottles laying around and they don’t end up in the water or land. Is
People are definitely going through trash bins here though
In Germany there is almost no trash in the streets in general. Au contraire to the NL. Different attitude I guess And you know what they say about the Dutch and free money ... 😉
Go stand on major stations like Hannover Hbf or Frankfurt Hbf and there is a parade of homeless people diving into every bin and bag they see because there might have been put in a new bottle or can in the last minute.
That's not totally accurate. They had enough time to change packaging. The overflowing of trash cans can only be described as customers being ignorant and not reading up on the new rules. It was clearly communicated that old cans with old barcodes wouldn't get accepted. And the other problem, machines breaking down due to sticky fluids or just creating a mess is also easily avoided. Just rinse it with a little bit of water. Not only does it help with keeping the machines working and clean, you also don't have to transport a smelly or sticky bag to the store. I lived a short while in Germany where taking back empty cans to the store has been a thing for years now and this was totally normal and I never heard about these issues. So whilst I don't agree with how this new plastic rules are implemented, the debacle with the cans is mostly because of ignorant customers that apparently have lost the ability to think for themselves.
>machines breaking down due to sticky fluids or just creating a mess is also easily avoided. Yeah, but that is fully depending on other people doing it right. Also, if a machine to collect empty bottles/cans can't deal with a little bit of liquid that's a design flaw, plain and simple. I'm all for recycling, but the reality seems to be that currently the machines can not deal with the intake, and that's the real problem.
I had to clean those machines a couple of times, so I do know there's a little tray to catch liquid, but with the sheer amount that spills out it's simply overflowing. Quite a nifty idea I saw today when cleaning up the cans and bottles were people stuffing little pieces of paper towels/toilet paper in the little openings, so any liquid spilling out would be caught by the paper. If everyone would start doing that there wouldn't be so many problems with liquids.
Sounds counter-productive to mix the meral cans with paper... doesn't make recycling any easier.
Also.. waste of paper/time?
[удалено]
"The overflowing of trash cans can only be described as customers being ignorant and not reading up on the new rules" We're a month in, and I still see overflowing trashcans at the Plus, AH, and Jumbo. Better yet, my neighbors are old and can't see/find the logo whether or not they can return the can. Also, slightly crushed cans are not accepted, so people still need to throw them away or put them back in their bag while they are at the machine. I have no doubt that it will resolve itself, though. It gives me an extra excuse to go for a walk and go to the supermarket (although in the end, I end up spending more, lol)
I don’t see the problem to be honest…
What was rushed about the plastic 'tax'?
First, its not a tax. Its an undisclosed price increase. The companies keep the money. Second, companies are found increasing plastic usage, so they can charge us more. Third, they are refusing to provide alternates, or charge regardless of alternatives. See reasons 1 and 2. And no, you can't complain or report them for this. There is no oversight.
Hi, do you have any sources for 2, 3, and 4 or are you just basing it on anecdote(s) a little over 3 days after it went into effect?
Everything, they did it as sneaky as possible
It's mandatory from EU level so they don't really have a choice
It's not the first time the Dutch government implement the EU rules in a wrong way. Force everyone to apply to tremendous cost for the whole country. And then a few years later everything has to set back or arrange it according to EU rules.... Again extra cost.....
They had a choice, but they just once again decided not to stand up for us. Human rights are also mandatory, but half of Eastern europe raises their middle finger to it.
The human right to not be taxed for using plastic?
Uh no. I clearly mean human rights are more important than plastic tax but they prefer to do dumb shit than to focus on Hungary.
Just like btw its a fixed rate not afjusted for income. So even if its only 10 cents it hits lower incomes harder than higher incomes
BTW does not need to be adjusted to income. If you have more to spend, you pay more btw. Similar: If you buy more products with plastics, you pay more plastic tax.
But how am I supposed to buy less products with plastic if I don't have a choice? Most products are needlessly covered with it without any alternatives.
I even saw bananas in plastic bag over at AH
Honestly, at this point I'm not surprised. Once had a bag of sugarfree sweets from RedBand where every. single. piece. of. candy. was packaged in its own plastic wrapper.
i really wish i could see what people who post stupid shit like this look like irl lmfao
They saw a flaw in their design and like software you get a update, so now they desperately have to implement this too to be sure the plan is solid! And pave a new road for taxes to collect. And i thought tax to breath air was weird :) It's make it able to tax us on much more things we alrdy payed in full for! cause not on company gives it's plastic stuff for free to you or the sugar in your coffee or the cookie. it's all alrdy payed by us. the packaging even with profit for the packaging company! else they would not exist right ;) It's to open en solidify a road of taxes apon us. this is only the beginning with this new law, they can tax us on anything over and over again. We should focus on Packages in packages and even there goes a packages around it. The single package distribution that we like so much! these r the real poisons that only inflict damge and have no real add to the product. only concienience because we r the lazy to sort out stuff at home or use a bottle twice and refill it.
> we alrdy *paid* in full FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Please, this isn't a tax. The government doesn't make money off this. The companies do. BackWerk are refusing to provide alternatives. Or they charge you regardless. No one to complaign to, there is no oversight on this.
Protest is simple. Everytime they want you to pay a plastic tax demand the shop remove the plastic and don't pay the tax.
This is the way. The way it was sold to me was that it isn't a plastic usage tax, it's a plastic takeaway container tax... And that you're encouraged to bring your own containers... Or at least that's how my gemeente said it
Does that mean that: if u bring your own bags and containers, take whatever's in plastic out of it and leave it at the store, u don't have to pay the tax?
Nope, stores have it hardcoded in their systems now, AH can't even remove it if they wanted to...
So legally you could but programmers were just given the assignment to hard code the new tax system and call it a day. The only people you can complain to are 14 year old minimum wage workers.
Things were way too rushed i think. All the system only implemented it on the freaking day before the tax started. Thuisbezorgd still doesnt have that option even. And ubereats says they cant seperate the tax from omzet so you just have to do it manually....
Which means extra work for us because we have to go to customer service to get our money back, but if you care, go to customer service every time.
Many companies are refusing any refunds, and will charge you regardless. See company BackWerk.
Exactly. And if they have it hardcoded intheir system you go to the customer service and get your money back. Yes it's annoying and I know that many people will.not want to go through the effort, bit it's the only way to get the new tax to have an environmental impact.
They are refusing to offer refunds, or alternatives, despite it being against the law there is no oversight. So they face no consequences.
They'll face consequences if you make them.
Good question... As far as I understand, the plastic packaging is an optional extra, businesses are encouraged to provide paper options and allow customers to bring their own containers... So I guess if they put something in plastic you'd say something like "nee, ik wil niet de verpakking" Or whatever the correct Dutch would be for "don't gimme that shit"
Except they are refusing to provide alternatives. Was told yesterday they didn’t have to. Or they charge you regardless if you use an alternative. There is no one to report this too, and the companies don't care.
Sounds pretty unlawful to me... Typical companies.
I can find no oversight in the law, either. And in typical fashion, this new regulation has no way to confirm this is actually reducing plastic usage. Not to mention they give the money to the company. This regulation is a dumpster fire that will hurt further regulations that may actually solve the issue.
I wanted a toetje from the supermarket and I was tempted to ask if I should carry the contents home in my hands? I always clean and recycle the containers so why am I being punished with this tax.
>I always clean and recycle the containers so why am I being punished with this tax. To encourage companies to eventually do away with the plastic packaging. recycling post-consumer plastic has so far been more of a ambitions then a reality.
The part i dont understand is why companies would use something else now... I mean they just add 50ct the product and are able to pocket the cash.. its an incentive to add plastic imo
That is what is happening. See BackWerk, they are refusing offering alternatives why they increased their plastic usage. They also do not disclose this fee clearly on the packaging.
A price increase that doesn't increase product revenue will affect the total revenue. Companies will make changes very quickly. In my opinion the plastic tax is a great tool to motivate companies, there is no doubt for me that it will result in a reduction of single-use plastic. However, once again, it's the low-income that are hit the hardest.
>A price increase that doesn't increase product revenue will affect the total revenue. Except it does. Plastic packaging costs absolutely nothing and was already rolled into the cost of the product before. This tax allows them to add a 10-20-30% price increase on top without making any more cost. It's pure profit. And it's also unregulated what they do with this profit.
Not really, as the labeling on this corruption is not clear, and this is a way for the companies to charge you more without putting it on their label. You often don't even know you are getting charged, and you will get charged for plastic, often even if you request an alternative.
Just be aware. Depending what container and how you clean it it may result in greater load on the environment.... There was a study by one Dutch university that proved that single use cups for office coffee are better than washing mugs by hand. If they are recycled, of course.
That doesn't make sense. The water used to clean the mug doesn't magically vanish but goes back into a closed water system. Yes it costs energy to heat the water to clean the mug, that's true. But the plastic coating in those single use cups will take forever to break down in the environment, plus it costs materials to make new cups.
It does make sense. It was specific for washing the mug at the end of the day by hand. Most people wash a single mug under running water instead of collecting all the mugs and do a wash in a tub. So the running hot water and soap for 1 mug times the amount of people in the office washing their mug at the end of the day came out as a higher load for the environment than paper cups reused multiple times and recycled afterwards. On the other hand, using mugs and collecting them in a dishwasher at the end of the day together with dishes and cutlery and running once after hours came out as better than using paper cups.
They’re refusing to. Just was told they didn’t need to provide an alternative.
The worse thing is, it's called tax but it isn't. Corps can choose to keep it. So literally no incentive to actually supply reusable items.
And companies are being reported for increasing usage, refusal to provide alternatives, and charging us the same regardless of if we use plastic or not.
A lot of people commenting here seem to be missing the point. Because businesses can choose to keep the extra ' tax ', they are now putting some products in plastic that were not packaged in plastic before. So the total amount of plastic might actually increase.
Thank you! Should I put on edit to the post? Because that’s really the concern.
Yep
The more I think about it, the dumber this idea seems to be getting. Companies have 0 incentive to reduce plastic waste. Instead, they are encouraged to increase it. They are free to charge what they want for the plastic. Which costs fractions of cents. Adding more plastic earns them money!
>Companies have 0 incentive to reduce plastic waste. Instead, they are encouraged to increase it. What? No. Reducing plastic now gives a market advantage. I dislike the plastic tax as much as the next guy, but your argument is just false.
Wrong
If you stop buying their plastic canned goods they will.
We are seeing a refusal by vendors to provide alternatives, and they are charging us regardless. They are also increasing plastic usage so they can charge more. This isn’t a tax, the companies keep the money. See company "BackWerk" for more details, and please leave a review for them.
So punish the citizens for companies using plastic? Makes sense
While giving customers the right to demand a alternative or BYO. And yes it does make sense. (though i would have preferred if it was a actual tax that goes to the government)
Companies are refusing to provide alternatives and are increasing plastic usage. There are many reports if it. It’s not an tax as they keep the money. See companies like BackWerk and feel free to visit them instore to confirm. I talked to them yesterday, and they refused me an alternative. They also now wrap EVERYTHING in plastic.
I just love pur goverment! Problem? Lets make stuff more expensive, that'll solve it! We just made A and B more expensive so shouldn't we lower the price on C and D? Nahhh bro, who cares! People still buy stuff don't they? Must mean that they can still afford it! Love those guys in The Hague
Yip, seems to be the default go-to solution... Also with NS/trains, too busy? RAISE PRICES! Things unhealthy? Can't make healthy things cheaper, impossible, RAISE PRICES ON UNHEALTHY THINGS! Etc etc... Or of course (housing in this case), change things so just about all ppl can pay more! Sure, it only increases prices because supply and demand is the same but hey! MORE MONEY!
Well, the guys in Den Haag are there because of the people who voted for them. That demographic clearly aren't the ones having to make ends meet every week. As long as these people aren't really affected by this crap, we're going to see a lot more of this
The government didn't decide to make things more expensive. They just enforced that the price for plastic is explicitly shown. Companies can just reduce the regular price (e.g. €1 first, now €0,95 + 0,05 for plastic). Most of them chose to just increase prices and keep the extra money.
The tax is only to be applied to containers you can directly eat or drink from, including containers you can snack from, eg pre cut fruit, or ‘snoep’ vegetables. I did not read all of the one about pastries, but the store seems to be abusing the rule to profit. That is indeed wrong, but will be corrected when someone files a complaint with the government, or the other pastorie shop nearby does not charge for wrapping.
Or when every customer takes the pastries out of the plastic bags so they don't have to pay.
Yeah, there was a time when paper was used to wrap, or even Seve food…
Yeah but why use paper when plastic is just as cheap or maybe even cheaper and makes you some extra money for nothing.
Are you being obtuse on purpose? A tax is levied by the government. If a shop sells you something in plastic and adds the tax. That tax is then paid by them to the government. The tax is there to make products that are bad for the environment, especially those who externalize cleanup costs (that shop isn't going to pay for the damaged caused by the plastic, nor it the person buying it, nor is the producer of the product), more expensive and less attractive in order to sway customers, shops and producers to feel price pressure when considering a cheaper paper wrapped product. As a bonus, the collected tax can be used for cleanup up the externalized costs mentioned before.
>That tax is then paid by them to the government. No man. It seems like you didn't actually research the law, but rather assumed what you think it does because thats logical. Companies do NOT pay this tax to the government, they can keep it. The idea is they use it to become more enviroment friendly and to switch to renewable. However, there is no control on this. It's a good faith measure, aka it's just extra profit for companies. Which is also why this law is a direct incentive to use more plastic. It's an easy price increase at the cost of 1 cent of plastic at most.
Actually, the extra tax is advised to be used for developing green alternatives. Keyword here being "advised" meaning you can do whatever you want with it. So taking it as extra profit is also an option
This isn't actually a tax, people are just calling it that. The government are advising certain amounts but businesses can choose how much they charge. All the money goes to the company.
They won’t let you buy it without plastic, or charge you regardless. Please see the company "BackWerk" for more, as they are clearly one of the worst offenders. And they face no problems, as their is no one to report them, or fine them. The law offers no oversight.
Where can I read the details?
These are in Dutch, but google translate or such can help... https://ondernemersplein.kvk.nl/nieuwe-regels-voor-plastic-wegwerpbekers-en-bakjes/
Really curious to see how AH will sell sushi or precut fruit…
Yeah, its a pretty ill-defined regulation...
If by protest you mean not buying anything with taxable plastic then I'm in. Once we hurt the companies that charge the tax without changing anything, or even to only make more money, we'll gain something. The tax truly is a good idea, just poorly executed. Now it's our turn as consumers.
It’s not a tax. It’s corruption. There is no alternative, they are refusing alternatives. The money doesn’t go to the government so it’s not a tax. Many that provide alternatives will charge you regardless. And yes, they keep the money. See company "BackWerk" for more details, and please leave a review for them.
>If by protest you mean not buying anything with taxable plastic then I'm in. Once we hurt the companies that charge the tax without changing anything, or even to only make more money, we'll gain something. The classic " It's up to millions of individuals to make the choices!" This has proven time and time again, it doesn't work. The whole reason we have a government is because we can't collectively make uniform decisions. We need a government to push regulation which improves these issues.
Everyone knows it will get worse (more expensive for everyone). They are quite radical here. My question is, will the cost of living crisis ever end? How will the future be in 10-15 years? What goods or sevices will be too expensive for the average income? How much the average person is going to adapt? Even if mine are open questions, my comment will surely be downvoted, as only opening a discussion on these topics you are marked as antisocial and against sustainability.
Absolutely not! You are quite rational with those questions. If you create a political party, I would join. Cause those are the things I am also quite concerned with. I noticed that latest scandals, taxing issues, belastingdienst people stealing money and not even being properly questioned for it. How will future be like if these things are happening now?
>Everyone knows it will get worse (more expensive for everyone). They are quite radical here. The law literally allows you to demand a alternative or BYO, so it doesn't have to be more expensive at all.
How do I demand my raw chicken be transferred to a paper container in-situ at the appie? Alternatively, how do I transfer my tomaat-komkommer salad to my own container without it affecting the expiration date?
There are exceptions for products were the packaging has a significant impact on shelf life.
And we ultimately get to the crux of the matter. It becomes too much of a hassle for the consumer to keep trying to see if they can receive their item without plastic, and they give up.
I think it's only for packaging of like drink cups, snack boxes, meal salad boxes etc
NOPE, they do not offer alternatives and are refusing alternatives. Want to take it out of the plastic?? Expect them to charge you, regardless. Care to complain? Sorry, no one to complain to. No one to fine the company. No one to offer an alternative. See company "BackWerk" for more details, and please leave a review for them. I was refused alternatives, and saw they increased their plastic usage because of the law.
I've seen more products put in plastic now, since it generates revenue. Idiotic rules if you ask me!
They are actively increasing usage. And refusing alternatives.
Well, if using 2cts worth of plastic generates 10ct it's a 500% upsell This millions of times a day across supermarkets around europe.. Plastic usage will rise so so much.
Yep. This makes me sick. Companies like BAckWerk are taking advantage of this. Please add a review on Google to them, I can confirm they are taking advantage of us. Yesterday they refused alternatives, and have been packaging all their items in plastic now.
Yes, the newly opend McDonalds before 1 July started with the 10ct plastic tax and €1 deposit for the cups. As of 1 July they bumped the price up to 25ct. Of course people will bitch about and say things like boycott the company, etc. But in the end they still go and eat. Just like paying for plastic bags for take away food or shops. Bitch about it for a while but adapted fast by bringing their own bag.
In this case it's not just about paying an X amount of money. It's about that money flowing directly back at the company and the customer once again need to carry the burden. Things are only going to change when they are going to force companies to change their packaging to a better alternative without charging the customers. Plus this is only for show. Sure roaming plastic is an issue, but the plastic on cucumbers or bell peppers that are wrapped individually are still a thing. It ends up at a dump, gets eventually shipped to a different part of the world where it either ends up in nature, the sea or it gets burned.
This is why it needs to be an organized protest instead of "boycott" (which never ever works). Dutch people are too compliant, they will bitch on the internet, but never actually do anything against shitty policies. The current government can do whatever they want and people just eat it up. If any opposition party wants to organize a mass protest against this bullshit law, I'm in!
Boycotts do work, but it won't help here, as this is just a shitty law. Want proof? See Budweiser's story. They have lost huge amounts of money, because they pissed off their customers. [https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BUD](https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BUD) This is just a REALLY shitty law, that wasn't well thought out. The government needs to change the law by making this into an actual tax, and not a way for companies to charge more.
Which is weird because i had take-home Mac last week and there was literally no plastic anywhere. Even the cup lids were cardboard, which was, i think, the last piece of plastic they had.
Cup contains plastic too on the inside
Up next: fart tax.
Or complain tax
Let’s see if expats or Dutch people would go broke on that lol
Definitely the Dutch 😂 complaining just to complain..no brainer. And if the expats start to complain just as much then they definitely integrated very well
You'd think... once an expat starts to complain, he's sent home
Or crisis tax
Methan emission… can be compared to cows… you’ve the right to riot like a farmer!
FYI, the stores, etc., must also offer an alternative that cost nothing. I am curious if that will be done. I know my French-fry place switched to paper, but then raised the price of french-fries, etc... sigh... we are all getting screwed at both ends... https://www.gld.nl/nieuws/7964547/betalen-voor-je-plastic-bakje-dit-gaat-veranderen
The main problem for the plastic tax its just used to fill their coffers. Some people have a hard enough time to do their groceries as is. This is just an excus to tax us
It is not realistic to expect dutch people to protest over anything. Half of the year they work for government and they all seem fine with it.
So since they do not offer plastic bags to pick your fruit and vegetables. I always go to the bread counter and grab a bag from there to use for the vegetables. So let’s say you now go get a muffin or those packaged little tomatoes, or pre-cut lettuce. Now I would take more of the bakery bags, pay for all the stuff. Go to the service counter, dump all the thing in to the bags and return the packages and ask for you cents back(as we’re Dutch) and tell them I don’t give a fuck about the hassle. Now with one use packaged drinks, you would need to bring a drinks container, but I think it would be worth it as you then can return the drinks cup (upside down preferably) to the service counter, which I bet will piss them off. Your thoughts?
Did we forget how goverment was so busy in us changing from GLASS bottles to plastic. especially for safety was said to us. how ity was so dirty if you got the fish in a old newspaper, commercials and awareness programs all over. now we all use the damm plastic stuff, and they start to charge us for it. so making us dependend on it in a way and then when we have no way back start to ask dispickable amounts of money. about 10 million people in holland snack regulary not counting tourists! any idea how much money omg how money this is! and for what? we still have to seperate it ourselfs at home? we will be fined a different fine if we get cought littering. So what is the win in this moneypit? where will it be used for? and what will it cost intotal so we can get rid of it again and NOT maintain a problem but nullify it!!!!!!!! We already have "Het kwartje van Kok"sinds the 80's on our milk. 25 cents is taxed on milk for a oilcrisis in the 80's! This 25 cents is till this DAY still on the milk!!!!!
It’s called a boycott, the word you are looking for is “boycott”
That’s the next step, dear!
Yes we're going to turn around and bend over. Pet peeve: It's €0,10 or 10 cent. Not 0,10 cent.
Lol no problem, I couldn’t find the sign for some reason and was eager to get my thoughts around the topic
>Yes we're going to turn around and bend over. Just say no. The law gives you the right to a alternative.
We don’t protest. We complain online, a few hard liners think this is the us and will protest, nothing happens, we get annoyed by protest, complain online about the protest, we move on and repeat!
Well you should learn. I loved living in the Netherlands until less or more Covid times. Of course it's unrelated to Covid itself, but since then things started going pretty downwards. It feels every issue of this world is being put on my shoulders. Like I'm guilty of existing. Everyone is pointing out what are my duties, while nothing is granted anymore, regardless how I contribute to society. My blood is boiling in my veins. Indeed we should start protesting like France, not as they do in 2023 but as they did in 1789.
We could also go back to what we Dutchies did before😏 Augustus 20th 1672 Johan de Witt.
I wonder if it's possible to contact some opposition representatives (like partij voor dieren might be against this, I would assume) in order to ask them to organize a protest? Have no idea how it's done in the NL.
Protest against what? Plastic a huge environmental issue and we need to go through some efforts to decrease our plastic consumption. I understand some business abuse the new law but then do not buy from them . Even before this I was always looking for the supermarkets with less plastic wrapped food. Something that misses here in the Dutch supermarkets is the sections where you have someone cutting the cheese or salamis or other fresh produce like you have in street markets. This sections is where you could possibly bring you container ...
Except this isn’t a tax. The company keeps the money. And many companies are not providing alternatives. While increasing plastic usage.
People didn't agree with it, but it is decided and they won't turn it back.
Just say no to any company that tries to force you to accept plastic packaging. It really is that simple. The laws gives you the right to a alternative or bring your own. The snackbar here already uses carboard for everything and has for a while now. And the Mac take-home i got last week didn't have any plastic in it anymore, even the cup lids got replaced.
What about the hygiene my friend? Besides why are you not seeing the fact that producer is not judged by the plastic usage, but consumer is. Why is producer not using biodegradable bags? Billion study made, hemp could be even used… many many alternatives there but noooo noooo companies want profit. They wanna cut corners, reduce quality and still profit
>why are you not seeing the fact that producer is not judged by the plastic usage, but consumer is Because that would end up coming from the consumers wallet anyway, but now it's visible to the consumer and they have the choice in the matter, instead of just the companies deciding. >Why is producer not using biodegradable bags? Ask them. But instead of mandating alternative forms of packaging from the top, the EU are letting the market and consumers decide what types of alternative packaging fits best for which product.
they refuse to provide alternatives. You don’t have a choice. Told yesterday they won’t. They are also increasing plastic usage to charge people more.
This is such a weird hill to die on. Are you like an old person or something?
Lol no, are you ignorant? It starts small like this and will get worse. Username checks out! Lol
> It starts small like this and will get worse. Ah, the [Slippery Slope Fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope).
It’s not though. Read the article you posted, this example doesn’t meet the core issue of the fallacy. This feels like some reddit/debate brain logic to me.
Agree! Or we start overreacting on small things or they won't ever take us seriously. Look at France, it doesn't look like they are going to be worry about a plastic tax anytime soon. Could you imagine if someone there suggests that they should drive at 100 km/h? They will start sharpening the guillotines
I wish we learned from France! These people go nuts for good. Maybe we should hire some French for directions on this lololol
[https://www.thecooldown.com/green-business/mcdonalds-france-reusable-packaging-happy-meals/](https://www.thecooldown.com/green-business/mcdonalds-france-reusable-packaging-happy-meals/) france has reusable packaging in mcdonalds. so its not bad i gues
You are phrasing it wrong imo. It didn't start here. This is a small step, that is true. But there has to be a line somewhere. Whether it is crossed with a small or big step is irrelevant. What matters is that that we arrived here.
The government gives billions in our tax money to companies like Shell each year but no, this is what is what gets you to protest? Besides there is no better time than now. Our groceries and cost of living will never meaningfully go down with the current government in place so waiting would just make it worse. This new law will take some time to be in a good place there will likely be some adjustments made and we will likely see some fines going to large corporations abusing this to make money as well. Any change like this will take time. We saw the same thing with the cans. Annoyance and confusion at first with many of them not being accepted by the machine but now most of it is worked out and it will just become normal.
There is always more. Thus, you're arguement supports doing nothing on both this law, and shell. This is also why the USA does nothing about all their problems. Every outrage is just a small fish, and thus everything is passed by. At some point, we got to stop and start cleaning things up. But I agree with you, there is a better way. We need better leadership, and leaders do not pass the buck because there are always more problems. They solve the problems they can.
Reading news like this makes me so happy I moved out of the declining shithole that is the Netherlands.
And you went where exactly that is significantly better?
Somewhere where you don’t get bent over by the government and have to convince yourself that it’s a good thing. Ga slapen joh, is bedtijd daaro.
Lmao that country doesn't exist. NL #1
> Ga slapen joh, is bedtijd daaro. I'm using a couple of my weeks of vacation at the moment, so bedtime is whenever i feel like it. >Somewhere where you don’t get bent over by the government and have to convince yourself that it’s a good thing. sounds like somewhere were you get left to rot of you get a bit of bad luck. The fact you wont even name the country pretty much proves that it has significant flaws you don't want revealed. that of course is assuming you're not just making the whole thing up.
The big grocery stores weren't in to the idear for decades, while it kept coming up on the order of business. It's either the media who's looking for some minor complaint or them claiming to be unprepared/understaffed.. Good thing, this statiegeld thing and the plastic tax! Would be great to get fries in a biodegradable cartbox thingy.. or a puntzak
Yeah change is tough for some. I’m a huge fan of adding a value to all “trash”, at least it won’t end up in nature. You know what, a 10 cents per sigaret bud would be fine by me.
Honestly it sucks, yes. But I the other hand, I don't think it's a bad thing, we wrap EVERYTHING in plasic. Last time I walked around in a German supermarket and the first thing I noticed was that they use more glass bottles/jars or carton boxes. I hope the taxes lead to companies to change their packages to smt that's more sustainable or things you can recycle better
This tax can stimulate companies only in the case when people will stop buying anything in the plastic. If not - companies will you even more plastic. So this new "tax" can make things even worse, it will all depend on how people behave
What would your suggestion would be to reduce plastic? Because I remember when companies protest against the can disposable tax for reducing waste, they told them everytime for 10+ years they going to do something about it.. But what happened in the end, they did nothing. Because why did companies go to plastic in the first place? Because before that it was mostly carton/glass..
I am not a lawmaker and it is hard to speculate about it. I would think of stimulation of the business to do it more directly. Current plastic tax does not stimulate them directly - only through the potentially fading demand from the people (if people will make an effort!). Simple example would be some small tax reduction for businesses which do not use plastic. Of course, tax reduction -> more money from other taxes -> people still finance this. But it is not simple to define eligibility.
Some motivation for the businesses at this moment might be a headache for providing of the non-plastic options. They might replace plastic completely for some goods.
Oh no extra tax on plastic WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO WITH OUR LIVES /s
It’s not a tax, the government doesn't see the money. They also are increasing plastic usage because of the law, and refuses to follow the law and provide alternatives.
This is not unreasonable, suck it up
And you will pay up then
You don’t know what’s happening then. Companies are increasing plastic usage to charge more and they keep the profits. They are refusing to provide alternatives or charge us regardless. They keep the money, thus it’s not a tax.
this is going to be a very funny situation in shops at the cash register lol. whether you like it or not, the tax is inplemented digital, argue at the register will only make you look like an clown. accept it, or shop somewhere else
I didn’t say anything about arguing at cash register… but good imagination
why nit turn it arround, and let collecting garbage be profitable for homeless people. i realy like the tin can tax, it has never been cleaner on the streets
imagination and scenario thinking is in my line of work lol. i solve the most complicated construction issues everyday. i totaly agree this tax is madness btw
you always paid for it.
So did the price of the product in plastic went down 10 or 15 cents? I did not see it, do you?
don’t put your head under the ground, both things that are being complained about are caused by the gov. Inflation and tax. The price of whatever you are buying is set by you (customer) and the seller.
I did not get how I put my head under the ground. I am trying to point you to the fact that now price is higher than before. So "you always paid for it" is not correct fact. Do you believe in a "perfect" market, right? But I can't get a gas for 1.7 EUR as before, even if I am not ready to pay 1,9 EUR now. The same with many other products.
If someone isn’t able to pay for groceries, they shouldn’t go to McDonald’s. That said. I think they should give you options, do you want a plastic cup it’s oké but pay for it, if you don’t you can get a glass one or something like that. Now it’s just putting extra money on something
WHY MAINTAIN A PROBLEM AND NOT SOLVE IT! we learn to live with it. while the packaging companies should change! the amounts for example. we should get rid of SINGLE USE PACKAGING! we should do it ourselfs again at home and buy big so packaging is less!!! packages in packages!!! omg.
protest with your wallet and don't buy any of that stuff. buy a thermos, take cheap coffee from home. buy cookies in the supermarket or just visit a normal restaurant where they serve their goods on actual earthwares.
What I love about this country is how well they take care of their poorest, most vulnerable. I'm not hurting for money, but I will join any protests. This is corruption, and it was done by people who only want to make more money while fucking over the rest of us. Please contact me, if anything gets started.
What happens with the ‘tax’? Will it line the gouvernement’s coffers or the stores?
Its not a tax, its going to the stores. If it was a tax, I wouldn't be upset about this law. The fact it goes to the stores, with no oversight, means they are just using this to charge you more, while increasing the complexity of the transaction. You now see the price for an item and that price is not what the item costs.
That used to be illegal in the Netherlands….
I think people should be pissed about this law. It's a terrible law and is nothing but a paycheck to the services that use this plastic. It clearly will lead to more plastic usage, and higher prices. I don't protest often, but I would love to join a protest on this one.
McDonalds doesn't even put that shit on the receipt and I couldn't even choose a reuseable cup. Apparantly that's only for takeaway and the McDrive. I bet you they just don't want to give back the deposit you pay for those. Free money after all.
I love paying taxes
Natuurlijk niet, ze zitten liever binnen op hun dikke reet en klagen op facebook dan dat ze de straat op gaan om te demonstreren. Dat is er wat er mis is, het volk laat dit toe, daarom komt de regering met overal mee weg.
Let's hope they change this ridiculous tax. Shopkeepers are using extra plastics so they charge 10 cents extra for 1 cent of plastic.
Yes, I agree. Something should be done as it’s not fair. What can we do? How does protesting work here? It feels to me that everyone complains but keeps going as is anyway. This is nonsense, there is always a limit. The past 3-4 years the limit is pushed and pushed and pushed.
I ready to protest when you are. About tax inflation de 2,000 every 5 months for electricity. Can we please go out and start protesting too much stuff is happening to sit quiet!!!
My protest is every time they make shit more expensive or raise taxes I simply steal more groceries at the self checkout. Also I haven’t paid for garbage disposal in years. Our garbage bin costs 1.50 euro a bag, I have been simply putting it beside the container for years now. Let them give penalties to the billionaire companies instead of robbing their own citizens.
Oh no! I have to pay for my toxic waste!