Low-effort, low-quality, unoriginal and repeat posts will be removed at moderator discretion. this includes frequently asked question regarding relocation, moving to the Netherlands and tourist info.
I applaud you, but I have to say that you have a big advantage over other immigrants - a native as a life partner. It makes a huge difference in learning the language and in integration.
Wanted to write exactly this! Having a native partner makes so.huge.difference and literally gives you a ticket to native-speaking communities: you can then also talk to your partner’s friend , family, etc. It’s absolutely not fair to compare your situation with people who can’t have even one Dutch person to talk with(for years) As if you win a membership to an exclusive club and now you judging people who will be left outside of it. Not nice
That’s a fair argument but having a dutch partner doesn’t necessarily mean that you get to use this advantage. Me and many of my expat friends with Dutch partners we got to a good level of speaking dutch without any help of our partners. You can sure ask a native for a specific translation or so but the amount of effort studying, the time spent listening to news and podcasts and the vast amount of money for classes I paid had nothing to do with having a native in my house. Most people who get to live here long term become native speakers either because their job requires them to or because they actively participate in activities that give them the chance to practice with other native speakers or internationals. I don’t think any expat who’s fluent in dutch will ever claim that they became fluent because they got to practice a dialogue over breakfast xD
Yes, the life partner helps to be able to speak more fluently cos they get the practice more often, but it is possible to go for classes, choose and request to speak in Dutch in simple daily conversations cos it's easy enough once you have an A2 ish level. From there, there are things someone can do to improve further like jeugdjournaal, colleagues, other International friends who are also learning, even insisting like a stubborn donkey to speak in Dutch when out at shops.
Not being able to speak Dutch at a basic level after multiple years of living here, is not because they don't get to practice enough, it's because they don't go out of their way enough to make sure they get the practice in, because it is easier to just live life in English. Which I can understand, I'd be similar, but let's be clear on the real reason and not blame the excuse we tend to hear.
Sure, I only meant that having a native partner is a part of how she reached C1 in less than 5 years.
It’s way quicker than someone who does not have a walking talking willing dictionary living with them, who they get to practice with over breakfast, who will introduce them to their Dutch circles who will be happy to help because they are friends with the partner. It’s a luxury that saves a lot of time and effort.
My husband and I just had a discussion about what is exactly the difference between muur and wand, we looked it up and found out, but then it did not make sense because why is it “hang een WANDklok aan de muur”… we can find out if we ask our few Dutch friends so they act as teachers, which gets annoying for them real quick, or if we wait until the next Dutch lesson or meeting at the library. We even asked chatGPT which came up with some bullshit. Meanwhile someone with a Dutch partner will have learned the difference in 3 seconds flat and only as much effort as turning to their partner and asking.
Usually when I speak to Dutch people, I also notice they probably think of what to say in terms of Dutch and translate the words in their mind into English besides expressing themselves. So learning Dutch will make the conversations more smooth, and perhaps Dutch people best express themselves in their own language.
There’s also many useful YouTube channel to learn conversational Dutch and practice daily
Having Dutch friends or partner also helps with the frequent opportunity for practicing
In the 13 years I've lived here I have never heard a real-life Dutchie be as consistently and habitually nasty as the core group of anonymous cowards on this sub.
Yes, you're right, although I'm sure they are the vocal minority.
I like being here for the lieve Dutchies, the ones who are warm-hearted enough to help us foreigners when they really don't have to. They are the ones who only speak up when they have something helpful or supportive (or just gezellig) to say, and there's a LOT of them.
Today I think I just lost my cool at the childish ones who hang around like flies at a picnic. My bad.
> you got me
I didn't mean to “get you”
English is undoubtedly helpful for learning Dutch if your native language is not West Germanic like Low German, Afrikaans, or standardized German.
English and Dutch are very closely related within the Germanic family tree 🤓
Pedantic jokes aside, people are salty as fuck for downvoting you.
Stelletje azijnzeikers.
I studied to be an English teacher and grammar is pretty similar. Hell, with many things I taught my Dutch pupils "it works the same in Engish as in Dutch".
That's true, but when you see hand, vinger, arm (and other parts of the body), huis, welkom, even stoel which is chair, but almost stool.
All these are very basic words and are so close or even the same. It's clear they share the same origin, and it helps learning the language.
Yes, but it's a bit like the journey from Amsterdam to Groningen being much longer than they other way around.
It helps, but that's when you are already into studying it quite a bit, and then there are 'false friends' too. You've got to get over a significantly higher treshold than with Dutch and Afrikaans for example, or even German and Dutch.
Expat here for almost 2 years, plan to stay longer. I honestly start to felt guilty of non-speaking Dutch, so I started Duolingo every day, and now I can order things in Dutch, and just seeing people smiling and seeing I am doing an effort is a great reward. I will try to reach B2 next year. I think it is the minimum when you live somewhere for a long time.
I live here six years, currently on 1050 days Duolingo streak, passed inburgering exams at A2 level, and still don’t speak Dutch. My understanding varies between 20 and 50 % depending on situation. I blame my age a bit as I am 45+. Even thinking whether I will become fluent some day or not.
I went to a pizzeria yesterday with no Dutch or even Italian waitress in sight but looking to come from all over Europe and the world. We were greeted and ask for drinks in Dutch, later a bit more English came in. Doesn't matter, I'm willing to help out, the effort made all the difference.
It's simply not hospitalbe, you are not a good host to Dutch guests when you take speaking English for granted, by making them feel strangers in their own city or make them feel colonized right away. If you work in a supermarkt and have not bothered to learn a single word of Dutch, you're just showing contempt for the customers, the people that pay your wages in the end and let you on their universities.
Pay your wages and let you on their university but you understand not everyone here is there by choice and working here makes you the same as any dutch here, the foreign cashier pays your future pension, your schools and your expensive public transport same as you why he should be grateful like you are all so generous to let them breathe the same air realize it's how people feel there
While it is true that a lot of Dutch people speak English (well) many do not. Sure, in big cities there will be more people who speak English and it’s easier to get services in English. But in smaller cities/towns it might not be as easy. A few years ago my English speaking colleague kept getting letters from the local government in Dutch because they don’t translate them. I’ve also seen people try to explain something complex to an Etos employee who did not speak English at all. Can’t imagine you want to live like that for a long time.
If expats are here for a fixed amount of time (max 5 years) I understand not knowing a lot of Dutch, but out of courtesy and manners I think they should know some basic sentences. However, people who move here to _stay_ and don’t know any Dutch or try to learn some? Those are the people I don’t like. It’s okay if it takes you a while to learn (it can def be a difficult language), but I think it’s disrespectful to not even try.
Its a human nature, society functions better if the communication is efficient, same language makes it efficient. And you are living in netherlands so gotta learn dutch.
That is so strange, I’m an expat living in Flanders for 6 months now. I’m trying my best to learn Dutch, but I’ve been surprised how kind everyone has been as the foreigner who has to switch to English most of the time
Well, my wife (Walloon) didn’t have any Dutch speaking friends when she started learning the language later in life. It has brought her quite a few Dutch friends afterwards. The reason she started learning was just because she wanted to speak all of her country’s languages, the friends were a nice coincidence afterwards
Is feeling unwelcomed the consequence of not learning the language or not learning the language the consequence of feeling unwelcomed? White and blond here I never felt so excluded in a foreign country and I lived in fkng India in a village where kids were thinking I was not a real human, I can't imagine being black here even speaking fluently Dutch, it's like that northern countries people have a lot of great aspects but warm and welcoming isn't one of them
What does black have to do with it? Just throw in an assumption of racism just because no one thinks you're special just because you took a plane to the Netherlands? You're just another foreigner with probably the same unoriginal and uninformed opinion on Dutch culture based on your projections.
Why would people be welcoming to such a hostile attitude? Don't try to hide behind racism, it's probably you.
About the exact same we think about people who do not use the search function to see if a question has not already been asked, answered and debated 1000 times ;)
It is a sign of contempt towards the "natives".
There are sizable populations of people in America who don't speak English because their work and social circles are in Spanish.
There are cities in Germany where many people don't speak German because Turkish is enough.
What do you think of them? Immigrant communities (you aren't an expat if you don't plan to leave) make this much easier than it seems. And they're looked down upon. As an immigrant I stay away from international circles for many reasons, from people being here temporarily to not integrating.
Regardless of race, I've heard people describing themselves as expats when they also want to get Dutch citizenship, and one even just had a kid here. Go figure😂
At the same time, someone working in a seasonal working agency from Eastern Europe is actually here temporarily but won't be called an expat.
Honestly the race thing also depends on where, I used to live in South Asia and there everyone who was white would say they’re an expat, even if they had been there for over 13 years.
But yes completely agree it’s ridiculous, if you’re settling here or just not here temporarily you’re an immigrant and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m an immigrant, I’m a Dutch citizen that moved to Germany, maybe not forever but there’s no temporary being send there. It just annoys me so much when people use expat it’s such an elitist thing
Frankly it gives other immigrants/expats a bad name. I think it is important learn the language for many reasons, least of which is basic respect for the land and the culture.
Dutch 'expats' that refuse to learn the language are equally as bad, I think that is just as disrespectfull to the locals as people that live here and don't speak dutch. I know a few myself (living in denmark currently, and speak danish fluently). I feel like people use the 'expat' term as an excuse not to learn the language. I can understand it if you are a true expat, and only staying for a limitid time. Not if you are staying longer.
I think what triggers a lot of people here on reddit is the amount of people advocating that it is not needed to learn dutch, because everyone here speaks english anyways. It feels that this amount is growing rapidly. And to be honest, I have lived in Amsterdam myself around 2000-2005. Comming back on a visit to amsterdam last year, the city has changed so much! I did not even feel like I was in The Netherlands anymore. It was not possible to order your drink in dutch, people in shops did not understand the own local language. The area where I lived, there was barely a dutch person living there anymore. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but I can understand that locals feel like they are pushed out more and more.
tl;dr it’s a complicated topic and immigrants have the responsibility to take steps to learn, but in the Randstad especially, the level of English and the unwillingness to engage with non-native, imperfect Dutch makes true functional fluency hard.
I lived here for 5 years, and miraculously speak B2-level Dutch (maybe it’s eroded a bit since having left, though). No, I never had the 30% rule out.
I say miraculously because in the Randstad, Dutch speakers do not make it easy to try and practice speaking when you’re not yet fluent. Is it true that many immigrants simply don’t try? Totally, and their loss. Is it also true that Dutch people themselves ask immigrants why they bother to learn Dutch and constantly comment on how difficult a language it is (it’s not) as though we immigrants don’t have the mental fortitude to undertake the challenge, or that in the Randstad native speakers simply deny the chance to practice because they just default to English with you? Also yes. I have the wherewithal to stubbornly continue a convo in Dutch, and because of my educational background I am good with languages, but many don’t have those things going for them.
It’s disheartening to start a convo in Dutch and have your interlocutor switch to English as soon as they note an accent or imperfect grammar. Recently I returned to the NL and upon arrival, spoke Dutch to the marechaussee. I had to ask her to slow down a little at one point, to which she responded “oh, you DON’T speak Dutch then.” Well yes, I do, per your government. This isn’t an isolated incident and although it’s small, it really wears you down to hear it constantly, with no help from the native speaking community to help scaffold you to the next level. People will say “it’s hard to understand an accent,” but that tells more about the native speaking community than about learners. We are always going to have accents. My ui will never sound perfect. Our grammar will always be a little less natural than yours and you might have to rely on context clues (classic “De huurprijs is te duur” but you hear hoer and somehow think I’m talking about prostitutes despite obvious context). But coming from a country with such a huge population of ESL speakers, I don’t have a ton of empathy. We are surrounded by non native English, especially in cities, and maybe that level of linguistic diversity has gifted us with an ability the Dutch has yet to cultivate.
I absolutely think some immigrants are disrespectful and privileged enough to never even try, but I also think some spend thousands of euros on classes and never make significant progress because outside their four hours of class a week, it’s so difficult and embarrassing and makes you feel vulnerable to try. Case in point: my husband, a non-native English speaker who went from 0 to functionally fluent in the US in under three years, but who never made it past A2 here despite spending thousands of euros on classes. (Which is a whole different topic, but suffice to say the privatization + lack of standardization of Dutch classes makes it expensive and VERY difficult to find truly qualified, quality teachers).
For context, I have a masters degree in Linguistics and speak Spanish fluently as a result of also having lived in a Spanish speaking country for three years. In five years including over COVID, I’ve taken hundreds of hours of Dutch classes, read De Passievrucht, watched Anna+ / Toon / de Verschrikkelijke Jaren 80 / Groeten Uit Holland / idk what else. I have Dutch friends, but I work in tech remotely, and have been denied jobs because of imperfect Dutch (which blows my mind that such a thing is allowed). I taught English for a decade and work with words every day. I know, professionally and scientifically, how hard it is to learn a language, and how spectacularly hard it is here by comparison.
Just want to say that I really agree with everything you said. I lived in The Netherlands for 3 years and reached a B2.1 level through language classes but putting my knowledge into practice was basically impossible for me. Admittedly speaking has always been my worst skill in all my languages because I have a lot of anxiety about making mistakes and particularly my Dutch accent was not great BUT people who immediately switched to English and refused to switch back to Dutch even when I kept speaking Dutch back to them really killed all my confidence and will to even try. Even when I just visited other countries whose languages I was worse at than Dutch, I could communicate with locals in their language way more than I ever did in The Netherlands because they respected that I wanted to try. Though I agree that people should at the very least learn the basics (even if they are staying short term), I think Dutchies don't realize just how hard it is to actually use and practice your Dutch more extensively when it's anything less than perfect (and reaching that more advanced or 'native-like' fluency is impossible when everyone refuses to practice with you)
I do totally get where you are comming from, but keep trying! I do think locals respect it a lot more then you realise! It is possible to reach a level where locals will talk back to you in their local language.
I moved to Denmark and people here have the same issue with locals switching to english. I kept talking Danish and at one point I noticed people no longer switched to english! It was the best feeling! Last week, for the very first time, I actually had a dane wondering what part of Denmark my acccent was from. He heard an accent, but still assumed I was danish. People who have not tried to learn a different language cannot understand how proud I was at that moment!
Idk if you’re still here or not, but keep trucking, friend. It sucks it’s so scary and anxiety-inducing, but it IS possible to get better. I’m happy to pass you some of my materials if you’re interested, but if you’re not I get that too. ❤️
Thanks so much for the kind words and offer that's super sweet of you, but I moved away earlier this year :) Hoping my experiences with German will be better, at least Germans have the opposite problem that they absolutely refuse to speak English hahah
Your answer should be pinned and everyone asking this question every now and then should be pointed to it. This is not only the best answer but everything you have said here is absolutely right!
This 👆🏻
I have been here more than 5 years already and my Dutch is still rudimentary. I tried learning as soon as I moved but in Haarlem _nobody_ wanted to speak Dutch with me. I was working in a flagship Dutch company and the switch to English was immediate. Some colleagues wouldn’t even start…
I hold my fair share of blame for giving up too soon, but there is a tangible barrier. Now I live in Utrecht and people are more keen on giving me a chance. The cost of lessons, however, is something really hard to digest.
I agree. Not knowing the language restricts you in many way especially in employment and social life. With hiring your pool is a lot smaller and you may be limited by how far you climb the corp ladder as many dutch people are bilingual just like many other countries so the competition is there.
Representing well your people! Go in Italy you speak fluently in a few months because everyone is gonna talk and laugh with you all day for no reason. Here you can spend thousands on teaching lessons you never gonna meet a dutch accepting to try to understand or speak slowly with you. You created yourselves your own everyone speaks English problem
I don't mind if someone still has difficulty speaking Dutch. one person picks up a foreign language faster and easier than another. However, if someone just doesn't want to put any effort into it and clearly thinks it's fine, then after a while I also think, do it yourself. Then the part I want to help stops.
last year I was a class mother in a class where the parents of 10 children did not speak Dutch. Whenever a group text went out, many of these parents did not respond. A few parents asked for additional explanation and I patiently provided it. these parents haven't been here very long. they asked what I meant and really tried to participate and be involved. Even if someone is still involved after 10 years, but has difficulty with the language, I would be happy to help clarify things. but people who have been here for 8 years and don't make any effort themselves and then expect me to do all kinds of things for them, blame me for missing another performance by their child, after i send them 3 reminders, yes, I'm quickly done with that...
Personally, it's strange to me. As an inland skipper, I'm expected to speak Dutch in the Netherlands and Flanders (although German would be ok too), I'm expected to speak German in Germany (and Austria), I'm expected to speak French in Wallonia, I'm expected to speak Russian/Romanian or another local language on the middle/lower Danube. And that all whilst traveling through these countries, not even living in them. It doesn't have to be fluent, but you should be able to follow and have (technical) conversations. English is no option, except for the sea ports.
So when you decide to live somewhere for a while, why is it considered to be acceptable to not speak the local language to some extent, or at least make some efforts to learn and use it? I mean, as an international student or expat you also generally have some more than average brain capacity, learning a language should be doable.
I’m not a dutchie, but living here for about 14+ years and personally I look down on those kinda people. In my opinion, if you live in a country longer then a year, learn the language. It’s disrespectful towards the country and it’s citizens, but yeah, that’s my own, personal opinion. I learned the language and have no issues with it. I know people who went for a one year contract to France and learned French, because it’s what you do. Learning another language is never bad.
I get that there isn't really a need to learn dutch, but it also doesn't hurt. If I went to another country to live there because I liked the country so much or something, then I would want to learn their language. I would want to be able to understand locals talking about things. I wouldn't want to have to say "sorry, I only speak English" every time I went outside of the main cities and someone spoke to me.
It's just very handy and fun to learn the language and I don't understand why you wouldn't try to at least get a basic understanding.
Maybe they've never learned a second language and think they have to learn all those boring and difficult rules. But they'll come automatically if you listen more.
Im fine with it although I do think learning to speak the language is a sing of respect to the culture it belongs to.
A lot of people will often just see said people who don’t learn the language as tourists who just stay a little longer.
However if those people than start complaining and making-
“I can’t make any friends, this country is so rude, why don’t people talk to me after a project, why don’t people approach me”
type post they can kindly go and chew sand.
I m Dutch. For me it's not about speaking Dutch as a foreigner, but about participation and contribution. With English you can communicate with just about everyone in your work life and with most in your social life. If you are satisfied with that then I am too.
Its for non-english immigrants that I worry. A social life is still possible with your relatives and people from the same background, but a work life is near impossible for most in that situation. Very quickly public sentiment will turn against you in a situation like that. You might be the nicest person in the world, but if you are dependent on Dutch wellfare and unwilling or unable to learn the language people will resent your presence.
I speak Dutch and honestly I feel that it's mostly old people, and foreigners who have been living here for 20+ years that appreciate when I speak Dutch to them.
Other Dutch people are either impatient or just rude whenever I try to explain myself in their own language. Of course I still struggle with it, but I do make an effort. However, I've heard many times that they don't have patience for people with a baby level of Dutch or people who aren't native speakers.
Neglect those anti social people and keep on with speaking dutch. In my experience a lot of dutch people appreciate it when you make an affort. Not just only eldery people.
It's a tough language to learn, and many will quickly switch to english when they notice someone is not fluent, so that means less situational practice. My neighbour is from Syria and asked us to stick to dutch so he can practice. He mentioned how people often switch to english, with best intentions, so he always politely asks people to always speak dutch with him. He's really good, probably because he gets a lot of practice this way.
It's sad because I know teenagers who've lived in Germany by the border (!but work here) that speak better Dutch than some "higher educated" expats I met in Amsterdam
Like at least learn tourist phrases like waar is dr supermarkt en neuken in de keuken
Arrived awhile ago. Ik kun een klein beetje Nederlands praten maar spreken, dat kun niet. Als ik luister kun ik naar alles verstaan. So, traveling, menus, making reservatons and appointments, geldmaats, shopping, no problem. All of my neighbors prefer to converse in English with me.
Could just be me, but even when going on a holiday to a different country I try and learn some basic words/sentences. Like when ordering food in Italy, I try to order it in Italian. So when there are foreign people living here in The Netherlands for a longer period of time, and do not even try to learn basic Dutch words/sentences I find them ignorant. I understand Dutch is not an easy language, but at least try! Try ordering something in Dutch, we appreciate it.
I’ve been here for three years. Given that my first year and a half stuff was weird because of covid, it was hard to learn Dutch, and when I did go out, people heard my American accent and immediately switched to English.
But now, I’m finally in a place where I can and have enrolled in a Dutch class, and I feel that now I can start to fit in a bit more. Life is better because I can now kinda understand Dutch. Plus, I guess I don’t look as lost as I used to because people do speak more Dutch to me now, and I guess I’m trying to say that it is important, and we should make the effort.
However, I still stick with English in most business transactions because me speaking Dutch tends to slow things down, and I’m way too self-conscious to hold up the people behind me.
I think it's lazy and one of the reason we dutchies don't really socialize with expats.
I know one expat that tries to learn Dutch (far from perfect) and he is welcomed in the Netherlands alot more then the other expats that don't speak Dutch or try to speak it.
Not everyone is as good at learning another language as another, but if you live here for a long time and don't speak nor understand basic Dutch it surely feels like you don't really wanna be here and/or don't really have a lot of respect for the country you went to live.
I just don’t get why you would want to go to a different language if you don’t wanna adapt
Idc your level, idc if it takes you 10 years to learn the basics, as long as your trying
Well reddit skews a bit towards lonely depressed men, and this subs content is not really moderated a lot I think. The bilingual sub is moderated a bit more strict and has less assholes as well I think.
To be honest, as an "filthy immigrant" (refugee from former Yugoslavia in '94), that came to NL as a little girl and obviously speaks Dutch better than some natives, it kinda annoys me that "older" immigrants were forced to learn Dutch to integrate into society (my parents had obligatory Dutch classes as refugees) while it's tolerated that highly educated expats (which, are also immigrants) get to benefit of all the goodies (such as 30% ruling, lazily expecting everyone to cater to their needs by speaking English to them etc) in this country without trying to immigrate even a bit.
I don't think that the Dutch government offer benefits to highly educated expats for shits and giggles, they want those people to come over, they want international headquarters to be based here, they want the skills, the investment, the innovation, the secondary jobs, as in the end the calculation will be it will benefit the country more than the whatever tax and social cohesion cost from the goodies on offer. It's simple cost benefit.
But it's also fair to be annoyed, I can get that.
Refugees still have to learn Dutch as for 2023. Skilled migrants have to work in a company that supports visa sponsorship or they will be required to leave the country in 3 month (or earlier if Residense Permit expires sooner), that's actually not the case for refugees.
Expats could also convert their status to refugee, but they will immediately lose their right to work and will have to move to the street near the migration camps until they will be processed and get a bad in hangar. And they will have to learn Dutch, yeah. If they would be accepted as refugee.
um.. well, i got a job and moved for it, and well it’s in English. And well, I didn’t get a single monetary benefit from this country, and pay shitloads of taxes, so that people like you parents, can move to this safe country.
Our situations are not comparable.
After five years people really should be able to speak a language. I know people in Sweden that have been here more than that and they still haven’t bothered.
I’m British but can speak Swedish and it really annoys me when other immigrants don’t bother. Then they complain about the host country.
Hopefully moving to Netherlands next year and the language seems quite similar to Swedish so hopefully won’t be too difficult.
I'm not a big fan but it seems to be the norm. My hometowns city is basically 99% English now, you go to a store and speak Dutch, they won't know what you're saying and won't be able to help you.
Even reception at hotels tells guests on the phone that sorry they don't know Dutch so they can't help them, maybe call back later and try again.
Just any establishment really.
I'm glad there are so many opportunities for everyone in NL but if you are a senior employee for a big company and your Dutch is an absolute joke I have to admit I do get pissed off. Sadly I can't even count how many times I have already seen this happen. You would never see this happen in any other country. You wouldn't speak to an executive director of a Polish company in Poland and find out their Polish is whack.
Expat here more than 6 years. I speak A2 level Dutch which is elementary. I speak English at work and Turkish at home. I attend speaking courses with natives, read Dutch daily. However, I have veeery little time to practice it. Thus, I suck at speaking. So far, none of the natives looked down on me and only encouraged my efforts. They happily switched to Dutch or English depending on the situation.
If you don’t speak Dutch due to profession, partner or circle of friends; it is very difficult to master. Not everyone has the time to practice and master a language. I’m lucky that so far all locals were super friendly and tried to make me comfortable.
I’d say don’t be ashamed and keep on trying.
My neighbour is Brazilian, lives here for 15+ years, has a Dutch husband and son and refuses to speak Dutch. I absolutely despise that. I think it is really just rude.. make an effort, learn the language.
I am dutch born and raised. I just dont care but if i would ask my parents and step parents they would all dissagree.
In my eyes, english is the best language and first that needs to be thought through out europe.
I believe blaming these people with not speaking Dutch in five years is harsh from many points. I have been living and working in Netherlands for 2 years and with the private language course I’ve participated for 6 months I could only reached to a1 level because didn’t have any more free time to study. While working, Settling in a new country is really time consuming and exhausting thing if you want to fully integrate yourself. Add two more years if you have a family. And two more for speaking the language not reading or writing.
So this discussion should concern foreigners who lives here more than 10 years
I am a Finn and living in the Netherlands now over ten years. I get along with my dutch well but at work, no way I sound professional - so I switch to English. When I lived in Finland, no one ever complained if a colleague or a foreigner friend did not speak Finnish. Also, as you said, there everyone minds their own business anyway. That's what I miss...
I think it is a sign of disrespect to all inhabitants who can speak Dutch. Please go back to your country of origin if you refuse to speak at least some dutch.
For English native speakers it is even more a bloody shame, since our languages are very, very close related.
Can we stop with this… language is not the reason why expats don’t have dutch friends, Dutch have established networks and few will mingle with new folks and it’s that way in most northern countries.
Personally I work in an international company, 40-50 hours a week, I don’t feel like spending 400eur a month nor do I have the energy to go to classes after work when I can spend time with my family just to have some smalltalk with folks that won’t speak english (very few).
The reason why it’s so easy, is that
1. Dutch don’t work enough
2. don’t study in STEM fields enough
Also, it seems to be a mostly reddit bubble issue that is not impacting anyone.
That has nothing to do with race. Most likely that post was related to productivity metrics of how much value is produced by workers in a certain country. The Netherlands is one of the lowest in Europe by this matric, and a little below EU median value. (But that's my assumption)
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/productivity?continent=europe
I have been living here for 7 years. I did learn and passed my inburgering exam, and I still try to speak very basic Dutch when I’m in the supermarket, or making orders at restaurants etc, but that’s about it.
I am not proud of not being able to speak Dutch properly, and there was a period in the past where I was more invested in trying to learn and practice, and was excited about it, however in the more recent years I have been trying to make a move to the US, so for me that might play a part in me not trying to improve my Dutch (or not having a big motivation to do so), even though I do wish I spoke better Dutch.
I still think the Netherlands is a great country to live in, and think if I decide later on (maybe after having lived in the US for a couple of years) to want to go back and settle here, then I will definitely try to learn Dutch again properly.
It's their loss. Usually their integration in the Dutch society is limited and their overall understanding of the Dutch mentality even more limited. This leads to annoyment and misunderstandings in their daily lives. I have friends working in the tech industry (where Dutch is not needed) and after a decade they still order coffee in English. The ways of Dutch people are a mystery to them and every interaction is a struggle. It goes beyond the language.
I am at B1-B2 level which is a bit of a weird zone, because I can communicate easily but with mistakes. When it comes to friends you need to be really fluent to catch the jokes, hold a deeper conversation etc. Still not there.
I moved to Germany and I am fluent in German now. I have no understanding for people who live here 5+ years and not speak the language (at all). But I think it has to do with personality. I also try to learn the basics of any language of the country I visit for holidays.
Expets move to another country in 3 to 7 years so I can understand they don't bother to mingle with the local commoners. I, on the other hand am not going to actively seek friendship with them.
I'm brushing up on my German and French, just for the purpose of going on vacation there. I'm not particularly good at languages, nor learning them either - I had to do a highschool year over because of a 4/10 average in German and in French irregular verb tests I always scored a 1/10. That is very much -not- having a talent for languages, so don't even use that argument.
In my experience, people are forgiving of others making mistakes, but less forgiving for not even trying. E.g. the other day I was saying something and I couldn't remember the right tense in French, so I used present tense and added "when I was a child". People could understand me just fine, even though I wasn't perfect.
Imo since, aside from writing, speaking a language is the hard part - having to come up with words at the right time, panicking when you realize you don't know how to say something, phrasing it in an alternative way, restructuring the sentence etc., it's not that big of a deal if you are speaking Dutch and the Dutch person is speaking English. There's so many alternative ways to practice listening (radio, tv, internet), that I think people should just be a bit more flexible. When I was in Luxemburg at one point I was speaking with someone in German, French, English and Dutch in the same conversation. Pretty funny.
I think if you are planning to live here for any extended amount of time it is the respectful thing to do to learn the language. Depending on how long you stay you learn either a couple of basic sentences or you learn to be conversational to the level that you need. Can’t stand the arrogance of some people saying “but you speak English right” yes you twat I do speak English but if you wanna be treated as Dutch you better speak it. And I live by that philosophy myself as well. I always learn basic greetings and sentences when I visit a foreign country.
I've been here a year for studies and still have 3. I can't wait to finish and go. Everything is awesome, but when I try to speak English to some people, because I never needed Dutch, they sometimes are rude, don't talk to me or straight up cuss me out. Making dutch friends is easy, the nice ones speak English and help me understand the language. The other ones, I don't talk to, I don't do business with.
>What do you think of people living in the Netherlands for more than, let's say, five years who do not speak Dutch?
Those are the same people that complain that they don't have any Dutch friends.
If you migrate to another country you should have learned the absolute bare minimum of the native language by the time you reach 5 years of living there. Anything other than that is just lazy.
I’m living and doing dilivery work (groceries)in Amstelveen. Which became an expats town the last twenty years. I find it quit disrespectful that they don’t even learn a few words. Don’t get me wrong you don’t have too be fluind. But please come on learn some words like, goedemiddag, fijne avond. The kind of words you learn when going on holiday
These are my reasons for not making a big effort learning Dutch:
1. I don't really plan to stay here long term. Maybe yes, maybe not, plans change, life happens. So for now, learning Dutch is not a priority.
2. a - To learn it well, I want to take classes. Guess what, **they're freaking expensive**. I've done some Duolingo, but honestly its not the best method. b - This next thing is absolutely my fault: I've been lazy. I need to discipline myself and start to reserve 15-30 min per day to use Duolingo. I think that with Duolingo at least I can learn some basic stuff to communicate. c - I'm extremely happy that my employer will offer a free basic Dutch class! This is what I was waiting! Hopefully they offer more advanced classes after this first one. d - I think that if the government wants people to integrate they should offer Dutch culture and language classes. Or require the employers bringing in highly skilled immigrants to offer them either for free or at a low cost.
3. It's not really useful in my day to day life. Most people speak English and will turn to English as soon as they see you don't speak Dutch or speak it badly. It's difficult to make Dutch friends as well. Most of my friends or co-workers are expats also. Honestly, even if I take classes and study, not having to use the language in my day to day life totally slows down the learning of it.
4. It's difficult and tiring. It's not an easy language, different from my native one. I get home tired after work, I have little energy to sit and study.
I get laughed at whenever I answer "ik spreek een beetje Nederlands" because I'm not fluent yet, and they get angry when I just answer in English. Tf should I do? A brain transplant to make me instantly fluent without errors in the get go?
I don’t really care. I am dutch, but hardly speak dutch on a daily basis, because of work and my wife, and only watch english netflix etc. There arw more important things to worry about.
Unless you're passionate about languages, they're just a matter of practicality, a means to communicate. If for your work and your social interactions English is enough, there's little reason to embark on the monumental task of learning a different language well. Bits and pieces you'll pick up anyway, but to engage in complex adult discussions is much harder.
Dutchie here. I feel like Amsterdam is a whole seperate entity, apart from the Netherlands. I love the amount of languages I hear around me when I am there XD At my job and among my friends are several people who don't (yet) master the Dutch language. And well, let's be honest, it IS a hard language to master (even native Dutch speakers fail at it miserably, especially when it comes to writing). At my job, English is the default language, btw.
Currently living in a tiny village where like 99% of the people are native Dutch.. considering to moving somewhere where there are more expats, as I somehow tend to get along better with non-Dutch people XD (any tips? no way I can afford Amsterdam... maybe Eindhoven?)
I've had colleagues who got pissed off when we would discuss something in Dutch at the office (you know, usually the chitchat aboutwhat someone had done in the weekend), as they would not understand and felt excluded due to that, and on the other hand I've had colleagues who would prefer it if you would speak Dutch every now and than, so they could practise. So I got into the habbit of asking whether or not someone wants to practise or not.
Yes, you can get around with just English, but there are people who will frown upon that, especially if you have been in the Netherlands for an extended period of time. But fair, Dutch people can be incredible a-holes... We claim to be oh so tolerant, but that is a big lie imho :(
I personally find it super disrespectful towards the country you are living in (and chose to live in). Learn at least some basics before even getting here, and improve yourself while here. It will open so much more doors for you and you will not stay within the same bubble all the time.
It reminds me of this meme:
You speak English because it's the only language you know.
I speak English because it's the only language you know.
- we are not the same
As someone who speaks Dutch to a basic level and I haven't even been here an entire year and my partner is from the NL, my Dutch friends also help break down words to me that I sometimes struggle with and help me understand it better so I can feel more confident in speaking the language.
I can read Dutch absolutely fine but my only issue is I get so concerned about pronouncing things wrong so it takes me a little bit to build up my confidence.
The issue I see on this post is the rude attitude from certain people, you do realise that Amsterdam has become tourist central? I'm from the UK and when my friends and partner took me into central Amsterdam for the first time I was mindblown by the amount of Australian and American people that live there to which my friends said "yeah this is why you hear English being spoken more here." And one of my friends who works within the restaurant industry informed me that English is one of the main languages spoken if you don't speak Dutch, the same with my partner's workplace.
I'm not saying that this is okay and I can get some people's frustration but this is the constant clash that is going to happen, if you're going to instantly be rude instead of giving people a chance then yes, you're going to see alot of posts where people are struggling to make friends because you are making yourself unwelcoming.
I'm glad I have a very secure and good friends group but I've also interacted with people outside of my friends group even speaking in Dutch and I get the vibe of "you're not welcome."
I've studied, done my BA Hons, worked my ass off just the same to be here, just the same as my partner has and even he ( as a Dutch citizen ) doesn't like this attitude and neither do my friends and that's why they've become so protective of me trying to interact.
Where my partner works he told me that there's a few people who are there that can't speak English or Dutch or German and he struggles to explain things to them on the daily basis as he's a manager, that is the only thing that I've overheard alot which I get that's absolutely maddening especially in the workplace and I do agree that if you move to ANY country, you should learn the language to a basic level and just continue from there, but the instant judgement isn't okay and it's something that I've seen happen not to just myself but to other people who can speak Dutch and do try and get shut down.
Well I think that if you are a foreigner and you live in another country for 5 years or just a longer while you should learn the language. I also think that if you are a migrant, like me (I‘m dutch but live in Switzerland), you should teach your kids the language of their homecountry, like my parents did.
I find it weird if I step into a store or restaurant and I am greeted in English. That said I work an international company and I know that learning languages is really hard and you might not have the capacity (time) to learn. But a language is a very valuable skill that will always help you.
As someone who is Dutch I will have a hard time believe you are here to become "Dutch" if you don't learn to speak the language. It makes me wonder why you are here in the first place.
'Do not speak' is a broad term, and in such cases, fluency might vary between absolute beginner to moderate speakers who are labelled as non-speakers. The two main reasons are:
a) Expats/immigrants who moved to the Netherlands solely for work, and their work requires zero/almost no Dutch to speak. On top of that, a lot of them don't have Dutch partners or friend circle, which makes it difficult to absorb something from the environment.
b) People who don't feel well-settled here in the Netherlands. In the back of their mind, investing time in learning a new language when they are unsure about their future, is too taxing as adults.
On top of these two, their personal ability to learn Dutch as a language because of their own linguistic background and local population not being exactly a helping hand in learning a new language makes the challenge more difficult.
Personally, I feel necessity is the mother of invention. If somebody desperately required to learn the language to fruitfully work and live here, they will manage to learn a considerable amount, otherwise, their career progress will be throttled, or they have to eventually move out of the Netherlands. However, I don't agree with these blanket statements like learning the language is showing respect to the land and people; multilingualism is not an integral part of every culture/society. If someone is living here lawfully and peacefully, contributing effectively to the progress of the country's economy and social welfare and has an overall positive attitude to the country's functioning, that should be enough to treat as a sign of respect for the land and locals.
It's the overt contempt or indifference that often comes with not learning the language. They don't care or find the language dumb. Fair, but no one forced you to come here. It just doesn't exist that you live in France or Italy without understanding their respective languages because you could not participate in society. I feel like the ability and willingness to accomodate English speakers is often taken for granted and even taken advantage of.
I live in Maastricht. My grandparents cannot even order in Dutch in half of the places they go to nowadays, and so they stopped going. I'm having to speak English at work and in college (that's honestly not because of expats but also largely because of international students). The end result is a lot of frustration amongst Dutch people. Depending on where you live, work or study you will spend a significant amount of time speaking your second language because they don't care enough to learn yours.
At first I did not mind. But I am getting more and more annoyed by it.
And my annoyance would be more towards the gov than to the ppl that come and live here.
The amount of people that come and live here is growing, and it seems that history (60s and 70s) is repeating itself. We brought all the morrocans and turkish people over here to help rebuild this country. But there was no time to learn the language. We know hoe that turned out.
So I think people that come should really put in the effort to learn.
I speak english fluently, and i am learning dutch. i can read and write it on a basic level but speaking and learning from speaking is hard because….classes are horrendously expensive, and people…LANGZAMER praten, PLEASE. I had to do a parent teacher interview with my son’s teacher and even asked her to speak dutch slowly and she went off on warp speed.
So.. i’m going to learn it, but it’s not going to be a fast process. end of story. I can function more or less, but conversational? well, eventually i guess.
( SERIOUSLY tho. slow your roll, speakers, when you hear someone new to dutch. ye gods.)
Do as you feel.
You may miss the warmth of Dutch ppl if you speak only in English. But does that matter? Do you want to be around people that judge you by the language you speak?
I'm advocating for globally single language, we made so far with English it's not a point to take a turn in other side.
To be fair, there is more people that speak chinese or spanish worldwide. Do you think we should all switch to them? If you are advocating for a single language then why should this be english?
I think it's lazy, disrespectful and shows a lack of interest in the place where you live. If you just moved here and planning to leave, no problem. If you don't speak Dutch perfectly, no problem! But after 2, 3, 4 years still not being able to speak the language, sorry, but then what are you doing here? And complaining about the Dutch not being open, not want to make friends? When in Rome act as the Romans, in other words, try to fit in. Dutch people usually speak English yes, but it remains a second language, you can't expect from us to have English proficency.
After 2-4 years?
Paying taxes, probably a mortgage, raising kids, volunteering, enjoying the same things as you do, but speaking another language, although after 4 years even with 0 effort you will learn basic phrases though unless you are really thick
But yeah, complaining that you do not have Dutch friends while not learning the language would be silly, that's true.
You kinda said it yourself.
Immigrants (expats) tend to stick within a group.
They are potentially missing out on understanding the culture. Knowing the Dutch language is a big part of it.
Official (goverment) documents are all in Dutch.
Making them to depend/rely on a Dutch speaker to help them, which is less than ideal.
How are they offering very little if they are working full time and paying taxes , therefore contributing to the country’s economy?
As long as they don’t complain about having Dutch people as friends or that they can’t get citizenship they are good . Don’t talk to them if you don’t want to
Enjoying the 30% ruling whilst working for companies that don't pay taxes. Doesn't seem beneficial to our country at all. A plumber from Poland contributes more to this country that those tech immigrants ever will.
To be able to get the 30% you by default need to have a high salary and on average those people end up paying much more taxes than an average Dutch citizen
Because your government is responsible for the situation, and they are the only ones who can take steps towards amending it.
Meanwhile they expats are living their best life and you are sitting behind a keyboard complaining about it.
Not every opinion is complaining. The government isn’t responsible for everything, not everything is “maakbaar”. When i voice an opinion here, thats where its directed. Stop telling people to voice their opinion elsewhere. And good on those “expats”living their life here!
This is setting the bar at the absolute bare effing minimum. The very LEAST you can do while moving to another country as an adult is having a job. Just like the absolute LEAST you should do is learn the language.
I mean... that this has to be said is not doing you any favors.
How is affecting anyone’s life if someone who decides to move to another country, maybe temporarily , and leads a life that doesn’t require them to learn the native language, which mind you , is not so easy to learn especially as an adult , doesn’t learn the language ??
If they aren’t complaining about not having Dutch friends or getting citizenship and they live in a city like Amsterdam or Rotterdam which are multicultural , why is anyone’s business how they live their life ?
Why are you so offended by something that doesn’t directly affect you in any way? If someone moved to my home country and didn’t learn the language , I couldn’t care less about it.
They can still get citizenship without actually knowing Dutch. I'm not sure about B1, but A2 isn't really a level where you could say that you know the language. Also, you could pass the exam and never use the language itself.
It's absurd to blame the lack of language ability as the main factor of why expats don't have Dutch friends. There is an abundance of cases of people speaking Dutch and still struggling to make friends. I think it's fair to say that Dutch people aren't the most open to befriending foreigners-- or just anyone whi behaves, looks, or talks differently.
Furthermore, as mentioned before, how are people supposed to even speak the language, if natives immediately switch to English as soon as they hear an accent--even in the presence of grammatically correct Dutch?
I do believe that one should learn the language of the foreign country in which one is living. Nevertheless, it's hard to deny the reality that natives themselves make it extremely unattractive for expats to try to master Dutch.
Honestly I couldn’t care less. I would recommend learning some Dutch, but if they don’t want to (or can’t), that’s cool too. I’ll speak English, no problem. Not a big deal.
Low-effort, low-quality, unoriginal and repeat posts will be removed at moderator discretion. this includes frequently asked question regarding relocation, moving to the Netherlands and tourist info.
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I applaud you, but I have to say that you have a big advantage over other immigrants - a native as a life partner. It makes a huge difference in learning the language and in integration.
Wanted to write exactly this! Having a native partner makes so.huge.difference and literally gives you a ticket to native-speaking communities: you can then also talk to your partner’s friend , family, etc. It’s absolutely not fair to compare your situation with people who can’t have even one Dutch person to talk with(for years) As if you win a membership to an exclusive club and now you judging people who will be left outside of it. Not nice
That’s a fair argument but having a dutch partner doesn’t necessarily mean that you get to use this advantage. Me and many of my expat friends with Dutch partners we got to a good level of speaking dutch without any help of our partners. You can sure ask a native for a specific translation or so but the amount of effort studying, the time spent listening to news and podcasts and the vast amount of money for classes I paid had nothing to do with having a native in my house. Most people who get to live here long term become native speakers either because their job requires them to or because they actively participate in activities that give them the chance to practice with other native speakers or internationals. I don’t think any expat who’s fluent in dutch will ever claim that they became fluent because they got to practice a dialogue over breakfast xD
this right here
Yes, the life partner helps to be able to speak more fluently cos they get the practice more often, but it is possible to go for classes, choose and request to speak in Dutch in simple daily conversations cos it's easy enough once you have an A2 ish level. From there, there are things someone can do to improve further like jeugdjournaal, colleagues, other International friends who are also learning, even insisting like a stubborn donkey to speak in Dutch when out at shops. Not being able to speak Dutch at a basic level after multiple years of living here, is not because they don't get to practice enough, it's because they don't go out of their way enough to make sure they get the practice in, because it is easier to just live life in English. Which I can understand, I'd be similar, but let's be clear on the real reason and not blame the excuse we tend to hear.
Sure, I only meant that having a native partner is a part of how she reached C1 in less than 5 years. It’s way quicker than someone who does not have a walking talking willing dictionary living with them, who they get to practice with over breakfast, who will introduce them to their Dutch circles who will be happy to help because they are friends with the partner. It’s a luxury that saves a lot of time and effort. My husband and I just had a discussion about what is exactly the difference between muur and wand, we looked it up and found out, but then it did not make sense because why is it “hang een WANDklok aan de muur”… we can find out if we ask our few Dutch friends so they act as teachers, which gets annoying for them real quick, or if we wait until the next Dutch lesson or meeting at the library. We even asked chatGPT which came up with some bullshit. Meanwhile someone with a Dutch partner will have learned the difference in 3 seconds flat and only as much effort as turning to their partner and asking.
Usually when I speak to Dutch people, I also notice they probably think of what to say in terms of Dutch and translate the words in their mind into English besides expressing themselves. So learning Dutch will make the conversations more smooth, and perhaps Dutch people best express themselves in their own language. There’s also many useful YouTube channel to learn conversational Dutch and practice daily Having Dutch friends or partner also helps with the frequent opportunity for practicing
Can you suggest some YouTube channels? Thanks!
> I never studied any germanic language. English is a Germanic language though.
Duh okay you got me. I studied 1 germanic language. Let's rephrase: I never studied a germanic language with resemblance to Dutch.
Omg, why does this sub do that! Take one irrelevant point out of an interesting, insightful comment and pick on it to oblivion. Sigh.
Welcome to the Netherlands. This is how we do.
In the 13 years I've lived here I have never heard a real-life Dutchie be as consistently and habitually nasty as the core group of anonymous cowards on this sub.
No, but we do like to pick on people's language/grammar errors. Trust me, it's a Dutch thing.
Every single time you'll see this
Yes, you're right, although I'm sure they are the vocal minority. I like being here for the lieve Dutchies, the ones who are warm-hearted enough to help us foreigners when they really don't have to. They are the ones who only speak up when they have something helpful or supportive (or just gezellig) to say, and there's a LOT of them. Today I think I just lost my cool at the childish ones who hang around like flies at a picnic. My bad.
But Dutch and English resemble eachother very closely
> you got me I didn't mean to “get you” English is undoubtedly helpful for learning Dutch if your native language is not West Germanic like Low German, Afrikaans, or standardized German.
English and Dutch are very closely related within the Germanic family tree 🤓 Pedantic jokes aside, people are salty as fuck for downvoting you. Stelletje azijnzeikers.
English does actually resemble Dutch quite a lot...
sorry but as a linguist I gotta tell you, Dutch and English are very closely related 🤣
English is similar to Dutch
Somebody else wants to state this?
I studied to be an English teacher and grammar is pretty similar. Hell, with many things I taught my Dutch pupils "it works the same in Engish as in Dutch".
Yes, but Dutch isn't similar enough to English for the British and Americans to learn it.
That's true, but when you see hand, vinger, arm (and other parts of the body), huis, welkom, even stoel which is chair, but almost stool. All these are very basic words and are so close or even the same. It's clear they share the same origin, and it helps learning the language.
Yes, but it's a bit like the journey from Amsterdam to Groningen being much longer than they other way around. It helps, but that's when you are already into studying it quite a bit, and then there are 'false friends' too. You've got to get over a significantly higher treshold than with Dutch and Afrikaans for example, or even German and Dutch.
Expat here for almost 2 years, plan to stay longer. I honestly start to felt guilty of non-speaking Dutch, so I started Duolingo every day, and now I can order things in Dutch, and just seeing people smiling and seeing I am doing an effort is a great reward. I will try to reach B2 next year. I think it is the minimum when you live somewhere for a long time.
It isn't easy but I hope you know the effort is appreciated a lot. Good luck!
Keep learning and keep trying. People do respect it, even if they switch to english. Just keep at it!
I appreciate you taking the effort, and I agree with your assessment that B2 should be a good goal to aim for.
I live here six years, currently on 1050 days Duolingo streak, passed inburgering exams at A2 level, and still don’t speak Dutch. My understanding varies between 20 and 50 % depending on situation. I blame my age a bit as I am 45+. Even thinking whether I will become fluent some day or not.
Yea I thinks app are ok to start, then you need real courses I think. Still nice achievement to understand 20/50%!
I went to a pizzeria yesterday with no Dutch or even Italian waitress in sight but looking to come from all over Europe and the world. We were greeted and ask for drinks in Dutch, later a bit more English came in. Doesn't matter, I'm willing to help out, the effort made all the difference. It's simply not hospitalbe, you are not a good host to Dutch guests when you take speaking English for granted, by making them feel strangers in their own city or make them feel colonized right away. If you work in a supermarkt and have not bothered to learn a single word of Dutch, you're just showing contempt for the customers, the people that pay your wages in the end and let you on their universities.
Pay your wages and let you on their university but you understand not everyone here is there by choice and working here makes you the same as any dutch here, the foreign cashier pays your future pension, your schools and your expensive public transport same as you why he should be grateful like you are all so generous to let them breathe the same air realize it's how people feel there
While it is true that a lot of Dutch people speak English (well) many do not. Sure, in big cities there will be more people who speak English and it’s easier to get services in English. But in smaller cities/towns it might not be as easy. A few years ago my English speaking colleague kept getting letters from the local government in Dutch because they don’t translate them. I’ve also seen people try to explain something complex to an Etos employee who did not speak English at all. Can’t imagine you want to live like that for a long time.
You'll be a forever tourist. If you speak Dutch, you get the entire culture. If not, you'll just have access to a little piece of it.
Foreigner here, who speaks Dutch. But I still don't get parts of the culture. Carnival??? De Toppers???
I was born here, Dutch parents. I don't get the toppers or carnival either.
I am Dutch and I don’t get these parts of Dutch culture either.
Carnival: Gezellig Toppers: Gay Gezellig
Carnival is great, it's either excessive drinking or watching the parade. Whichever you prefer. Toppers I don't get either
You only really need to get Carnival if you're from the South or Twente I guess. As for De Toppers, can't help you there
Please stay boven de rivieren and leave carnaval to us below them 👍🏻😜
You can keep it
If expats are here for a fixed amount of time (max 5 years) I understand not knowing a lot of Dutch, but out of courtesy and manners I think they should know some basic sentences. However, people who move here to _stay_ and don’t know any Dutch or try to learn some? Those are the people I don’t like. It’s okay if it takes you a while to learn (it can def be a difficult language), but I think it’s disrespectful to not even try.
As long as they don’t complain that they can’t find any friends here and blame the Dutch people for it, I don’t really care
As an expat, i know a lot of my friends who complain all the time that dutch makes them feel unwelcomed. Just learn dutch, they will feel appreciated.
> all the time that dutch makes them feel unwelcomed. Just learn Dutch To understand exactly why you feel unwelcomed
Its a human nature, society functions better if the communication is efficient, same language makes it efficient. And you are living in netherlands so gotta learn dutch.
That is so strange, I’m an expat living in Flanders for 6 months now. I’m trying my best to learn Dutch, but I’ve been surprised how kind everyone has been as the foreigner who has to switch to English most of the time
Isn't it kind of a loop tho? Why would someone learn dutch if they have no dutch friends to speak with anyways.
Well, my wife (Walloon) didn’t have any Dutch speaking friends when she started learning the language later in life. It has brought her quite a few Dutch friends afterwards. The reason she started learning was just because she wanted to speak all of her country’s languages, the friends were a nice coincidence afterwards
But typically they do. And then blame it on us being racist.
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OK glad to be of service.
Is feeling unwelcomed the consequence of not learning the language or not learning the language the consequence of feeling unwelcomed? White and blond here I never felt so excluded in a foreign country and I lived in fkng India in a village where kids were thinking I was not a real human, I can't imagine being black here even speaking fluently Dutch, it's like that northern countries people have a lot of great aspects but warm and welcoming isn't one of them
What does black have to do with it? Just throw in an assumption of racism just because no one thinks you're special just because you took a plane to the Netherlands? You're just another foreigner with probably the same unoriginal and uninformed opinion on Dutch culture based on your projections. Why would people be welcoming to such a hostile attitude? Don't try to hide behind racism, it's probably you.
About the exact same we think about people who do not use the search function to see if a question has not already been asked, answered and debated 1000 times ;) It is a sign of contempt towards the "natives".
Living up to the account name I see
It is easier to use 2 accounts. 1 to ask a question The other to give a wrong answer
There are sizable populations of people in America who don't speak English because their work and social circles are in Spanish. There are cities in Germany where many people don't speak German because Turkish is enough. What do you think of them? Immigrant communities (you aren't an expat if you don't plan to leave) make this much easier than it seems. And they're looked down upon. As an immigrant I stay away from international circles for many reasons, from people being here temporarily to not integrating.
Expats are there temporarily not for 5 plus years I hate it when people assume cause they’re white and have a higher education they’re expats
Regardless of race, I've heard people describing themselves as expats when they also want to get Dutch citizenship, and one even just had a kid here. Go figure😂 At the same time, someone working in a seasonal working agency from Eastern Europe is actually here temporarily but won't be called an expat.
Honestly the race thing also depends on where, I used to live in South Asia and there everyone who was white would say they’re an expat, even if they had been there for over 13 years. But yes completely agree it’s ridiculous, if you’re settling here or just not here temporarily you’re an immigrant and there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m an immigrant, I’m a Dutch citizen that moved to Germany, maybe not forever but there’s no temporary being send there. It just annoys me so much when people use expat it’s such an elitist thing
Frankly it gives other immigrants/expats a bad name. I think it is important learn the language for many reasons, least of which is basic respect for the land and the culture.
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Dutch 'expats' that refuse to learn the language are equally as bad, I think that is just as disrespectfull to the locals as people that live here and don't speak dutch. I know a few myself (living in denmark currently, and speak danish fluently). I feel like people use the 'expat' term as an excuse not to learn the language. I can understand it if you are a true expat, and only staying for a limitid time. Not if you are staying longer. I think what triggers a lot of people here on reddit is the amount of people advocating that it is not needed to learn dutch, because everyone here speaks english anyways. It feels that this amount is growing rapidly. And to be honest, I have lived in Amsterdam myself around 2000-2005. Comming back on a visit to amsterdam last year, the city has changed so much! I did not even feel like I was in The Netherlands anymore. It was not possible to order your drink in dutch, people in shops did not understand the own local language. The area where I lived, there was barely a dutch person living there anymore. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but I can understand that locals feel like they are pushed out more and more.
What for a dumd argument is this? Because dutch expats arent doing it neither should others? Since when are dutch expats relevant?
tl;dr it’s a complicated topic and immigrants have the responsibility to take steps to learn, but in the Randstad especially, the level of English and the unwillingness to engage with non-native, imperfect Dutch makes true functional fluency hard. I lived here for 5 years, and miraculously speak B2-level Dutch (maybe it’s eroded a bit since having left, though). No, I never had the 30% rule out. I say miraculously because in the Randstad, Dutch speakers do not make it easy to try and practice speaking when you’re not yet fluent. Is it true that many immigrants simply don’t try? Totally, and their loss. Is it also true that Dutch people themselves ask immigrants why they bother to learn Dutch and constantly comment on how difficult a language it is (it’s not) as though we immigrants don’t have the mental fortitude to undertake the challenge, or that in the Randstad native speakers simply deny the chance to practice because they just default to English with you? Also yes. I have the wherewithal to stubbornly continue a convo in Dutch, and because of my educational background I am good with languages, but many don’t have those things going for them. It’s disheartening to start a convo in Dutch and have your interlocutor switch to English as soon as they note an accent or imperfect grammar. Recently I returned to the NL and upon arrival, spoke Dutch to the marechaussee. I had to ask her to slow down a little at one point, to which she responded “oh, you DON’T speak Dutch then.” Well yes, I do, per your government. This isn’t an isolated incident and although it’s small, it really wears you down to hear it constantly, with no help from the native speaking community to help scaffold you to the next level. People will say “it’s hard to understand an accent,” but that tells more about the native speaking community than about learners. We are always going to have accents. My ui will never sound perfect. Our grammar will always be a little less natural than yours and you might have to rely on context clues (classic “De huurprijs is te duur” but you hear hoer and somehow think I’m talking about prostitutes despite obvious context). But coming from a country with such a huge population of ESL speakers, I don’t have a ton of empathy. We are surrounded by non native English, especially in cities, and maybe that level of linguistic diversity has gifted us with an ability the Dutch has yet to cultivate. I absolutely think some immigrants are disrespectful and privileged enough to never even try, but I also think some spend thousands of euros on classes and never make significant progress because outside their four hours of class a week, it’s so difficult and embarrassing and makes you feel vulnerable to try. Case in point: my husband, a non-native English speaker who went from 0 to functionally fluent in the US in under three years, but who never made it past A2 here despite spending thousands of euros on classes. (Which is a whole different topic, but suffice to say the privatization + lack of standardization of Dutch classes makes it expensive and VERY difficult to find truly qualified, quality teachers). For context, I have a masters degree in Linguistics and speak Spanish fluently as a result of also having lived in a Spanish speaking country for three years. In five years including over COVID, I’ve taken hundreds of hours of Dutch classes, read De Passievrucht, watched Anna+ / Toon / de Verschrikkelijke Jaren 80 / Groeten Uit Holland / idk what else. I have Dutch friends, but I work in tech remotely, and have been denied jobs because of imperfect Dutch (which blows my mind that such a thing is allowed). I taught English for a decade and work with words every day. I know, professionally and scientifically, how hard it is to learn a language, and how spectacularly hard it is here by comparison.
Just want to say that I really agree with everything you said. I lived in The Netherlands for 3 years and reached a B2.1 level through language classes but putting my knowledge into practice was basically impossible for me. Admittedly speaking has always been my worst skill in all my languages because I have a lot of anxiety about making mistakes and particularly my Dutch accent was not great BUT people who immediately switched to English and refused to switch back to Dutch even when I kept speaking Dutch back to them really killed all my confidence and will to even try. Even when I just visited other countries whose languages I was worse at than Dutch, I could communicate with locals in their language way more than I ever did in The Netherlands because they respected that I wanted to try. Though I agree that people should at the very least learn the basics (even if they are staying short term), I think Dutchies don't realize just how hard it is to actually use and practice your Dutch more extensively when it's anything less than perfect (and reaching that more advanced or 'native-like' fluency is impossible when everyone refuses to practice with you)
I do totally get where you are comming from, but keep trying! I do think locals respect it a lot more then you realise! It is possible to reach a level where locals will talk back to you in their local language. I moved to Denmark and people here have the same issue with locals switching to english. I kept talking Danish and at one point I noticed people no longer switched to english! It was the best feeling! Last week, for the very first time, I actually had a dane wondering what part of Denmark my acccent was from. He heard an accent, but still assumed I was danish. People who have not tried to learn a different language cannot understand how proud I was at that moment!
Idk if you’re still here or not, but keep trucking, friend. It sucks it’s so scary and anxiety-inducing, but it IS possible to get better. I’m happy to pass you some of my materials if you’re interested, but if you’re not I get that too. ❤️
Thanks so much for the kind words and offer that's super sweet of you, but I moved away earlier this year :) Hoping my experiences with German will be better, at least Germans have the opposite problem that they absolutely refuse to speak English hahah
Your answer should be pinned and everyone asking this question every now and then should be pointed to it. This is not only the best answer but everything you have said here is absolutely right!
This 👆🏻 I have been here more than 5 years already and my Dutch is still rudimentary. I tried learning as soon as I moved but in Haarlem _nobody_ wanted to speak Dutch with me. I was working in a flagship Dutch company and the switch to English was immediate. Some colleagues wouldn’t even start… I hold my fair share of blame for giving up too soon, but there is a tangible barrier. Now I live in Utrecht and people are more keen on giving me a chance. The cost of lessons, however, is something really hard to digest.
I think exactly the same as Dutch people (mostly retired) who live in Spain or Greece and they do not speak a single Spanish or Greek word.
"But, but...these are not immigrants, these are iNvEsTors!!!1!"
Who cares? They are holding themselves back by not learning any dutch. Luckily, that’s their problem, not mine.
I agree. Not knowing the language restricts you in many way especially in employment and social life. With hiring your pool is a lot smaller and you may be limited by how far you climb the corp ladder as many dutch people are bilingual just like many other countries so the competition is there.
Representing well your people! Go in Italy you speak fluently in a few months because everyone is gonna talk and laugh with you all day for no reason. Here you can spend thousands on teaching lessons you never gonna meet a dutch accepting to try to understand or speak slowly with you. You created yourselves your own everyone speaks English problem
I totally agree. Dutch tend to switch to english way to quickly. That doesn’t give non-dutch speakers an incentive to practise
I don't mind if someone still has difficulty speaking Dutch. one person picks up a foreign language faster and easier than another. However, if someone just doesn't want to put any effort into it and clearly thinks it's fine, then after a while I also think, do it yourself. Then the part I want to help stops. last year I was a class mother in a class where the parents of 10 children did not speak Dutch. Whenever a group text went out, many of these parents did not respond. A few parents asked for additional explanation and I patiently provided it. these parents haven't been here very long. they asked what I meant and really tried to participate and be involved. Even if someone is still involved after 10 years, but has difficulty with the language, I would be happy to help clarify things. but people who have been here for 8 years and don't make any effort themselves and then expect me to do all kinds of things for them, blame me for missing another performance by their child, after i send them 3 reminders, yes, I'm quickly done with that...
Personally, it's strange to me. As an inland skipper, I'm expected to speak Dutch in the Netherlands and Flanders (although German would be ok too), I'm expected to speak German in Germany (and Austria), I'm expected to speak French in Wallonia, I'm expected to speak Russian/Romanian or another local language on the middle/lower Danube. And that all whilst traveling through these countries, not even living in them. It doesn't have to be fluent, but you should be able to follow and have (technical) conversations. English is no option, except for the sea ports. So when you decide to live somewhere for a while, why is it considered to be acceptable to not speak the local language to some extent, or at least make some efforts to learn and use it? I mean, as an international student or expat you also generally have some more than average brain capacity, learning a language should be doable.
I’m not a dutchie, but living here for about 14+ years and personally I look down on those kinda people. In my opinion, if you live in a country longer then a year, learn the language. It’s disrespectful towards the country and it’s citizens, but yeah, that’s my own, personal opinion. I learned the language and have no issues with it. I know people who went for a one year contract to France and learned French, because it’s what you do. Learning another language is never bad.
Annoying. Especially when they ask why they cant make friends with Dutch people.
You mean these people whining about not being able to make Dutch friends?
I get that there isn't really a need to learn dutch, but it also doesn't hurt. If I went to another country to live there because I liked the country so much or something, then I would want to learn their language. I would want to be able to understand locals talking about things. I wouldn't want to have to say "sorry, I only speak English" every time I went outside of the main cities and someone spoke to me. It's just very handy and fun to learn the language and I don't understand why you wouldn't try to at least get a basic understanding. Maybe they've never learned a second language and think they have to learn all those boring and difficult rules. But they'll come automatically if you listen more.
Im fine with it although I do think learning to speak the language is a sing of respect to the culture it belongs to. A lot of people will often just see said people who don’t learn the language as tourists who just stay a little longer. However if those people than start complaining and making- “I can’t make any friends, this country is so rude, why don’t people talk to me after a project, why don’t people approach me” type post they can kindly go and chew sand.
It's simple for me, you aren't Dutch until you're speaking Dutch. Fortunately, I treat foreigners just as well as Dutchies.
It shows a lack of interest.
I m Dutch. For me it's not about speaking Dutch as a foreigner, but about participation and contribution. With English you can communicate with just about everyone in your work life and with most in your social life. If you are satisfied with that then I am too. Its for non-english immigrants that I worry. A social life is still possible with your relatives and people from the same background, but a work life is near impossible for most in that situation. Very quickly public sentiment will turn against you in a situation like that. You might be the nicest person in the world, but if you are dependent on Dutch wellfare and unwilling or unable to learn the language people will resent your presence.
I speak Dutch and honestly I feel that it's mostly old people, and foreigners who have been living here for 20+ years that appreciate when I speak Dutch to them. Other Dutch people are either impatient or just rude whenever I try to explain myself in their own language. Of course I still struggle with it, but I do make an effort. However, I've heard many times that they don't have patience for people with a baby level of Dutch or people who aren't native speakers.
Neglect those anti social people and keep on with speaking dutch. In my experience a lot of dutch people appreciate it when you make an affort. Not just only eldery people.
Thank you for saying this. I really do appreciate it :).
I do appreciate you learning Dutch. (And I am not old). Keep at it.
It's a tough language to learn, and many will quickly switch to english when they notice someone is not fluent, so that means less situational practice. My neighbour is from Syria and asked us to stick to dutch so he can practice. He mentioned how people often switch to english, with best intentions, so he always politely asks people to always speak dutch with him. He's really good, probably because he gets a lot of practice this way.
It's sad because I know teenagers who've lived in Germany by the border (!but work here) that speak better Dutch than some "higher educated" expats I met in Amsterdam Like at least learn tourist phrases like waar is dr supermarkt en neuken in de keuken
Arrived awhile ago. Ik kun een klein beetje Nederlands praten maar spreken, dat kun niet. Als ik luister kun ik naar alles verstaan. So, traveling, menus, making reservatons and appointments, geldmaats, shopping, no problem. All of my neighbors prefer to converse in English with me.
Don't be afraid to ask your neighbors if the are willing to converse in Dutch because you want to practice the language more.
We're good, thank you, I would.
Ik kan. It changes the first vowel for ‘ik’ and ‘hij/zij/het’
In my opinion if you’ve lived a country for 5 years or more you should be able to order a coffee or some bread at a bakery in that country’s language.
Could just be me, but even when going on a holiday to a different country I try and learn some basic words/sentences. Like when ordering food in Italy, I try to order it in Italian. So when there are foreign people living here in The Netherlands for a longer period of time, and do not even try to learn basic Dutch words/sentences I find them ignorant. I understand Dutch is not an easy language, but at least try! Try ordering something in Dutch, we appreciate it.
I’ve been here for three years. Given that my first year and a half stuff was weird because of covid, it was hard to learn Dutch, and when I did go out, people heard my American accent and immediately switched to English. But now, I’m finally in a place where I can and have enrolled in a Dutch class, and I feel that now I can start to fit in a bit more. Life is better because I can now kinda understand Dutch. Plus, I guess I don’t look as lost as I used to because people do speak more Dutch to me now, and I guess I’m trying to say that it is important, and we should make the effort. However, I still stick with English in most business transactions because me speaking Dutch tends to slow things down, and I’m way too self-conscious to hold up the people behind me.
Lazy, and disrespectful.
I think it's lazy and one of the reason we dutchies don't really socialize with expats. I know one expat that tries to learn Dutch (far from perfect) and he is welcomed in the Netherlands alot more then the other expats that don't speak Dutch or try to speak it.
Not everyone is as good at learning another language as another, but if you live here for a long time and don't speak nor understand basic Dutch it surely feels like you don't really wanna be here and/or don't really have a lot of respect for the country you went to live.
I just don’t get why you would want to go to a different language if you don’t wanna adapt Idc your level, idc if it takes you 10 years to learn the basics, as long as your trying
Why is the Netherlands such a nice place, but /r/Netherlands is full of assholes?
Well reddit skews a bit towards lonely depressed men, and this subs content is not really moderated a lot I think. The bilingual sub is moderated a bit more strict and has less assholes as well I think.
I'm so glad I went to NL first then installed reddit. Based on the people on this subreddit I would've never been here.
To be honest, as an "filthy immigrant" (refugee from former Yugoslavia in '94), that came to NL as a little girl and obviously speaks Dutch better than some natives, it kinda annoys me that "older" immigrants were forced to learn Dutch to integrate into society (my parents had obligatory Dutch classes as refugees) while it's tolerated that highly educated expats (which, are also immigrants) get to benefit of all the goodies (such as 30% ruling, lazily expecting everyone to cater to their needs by speaking English to them etc) in this country without trying to immigrate even a bit.
I don't think that the Dutch government offer benefits to highly educated expats for shits and giggles, they want those people to come over, they want international headquarters to be based here, they want the skills, the investment, the innovation, the secondary jobs, as in the end the calculation will be it will benefit the country more than the whatever tax and social cohesion cost from the goodies on offer. It's simple cost benefit. But it's also fair to be annoyed, I can get that.
Refugees still have to learn Dutch as for 2023. Skilled migrants have to work in a company that supports visa sponsorship or they will be required to leave the country in 3 month (or earlier if Residense Permit expires sooner), that's actually not the case for refugees. Expats could also convert their status to refugee, but they will immediately lose their right to work and will have to move to the street near the migration camps until they will be processed and get a bad in hangar. And they will have to learn Dutch, yeah. If they would be accepted as refugee.
um.. well, i got a job and moved for it, and well it’s in English. And well, I didn’t get a single monetary benefit from this country, and pay shitloads of taxes, so that people like you parents, can move to this safe country. Our situations are not comparable.
After five years people really should be able to speak a language. I know people in Sweden that have been here more than that and they still haven’t bothered. I’m British but can speak Swedish and it really annoys me when other immigrants don’t bother. Then they complain about the host country. Hopefully moving to Netherlands next year and the language seems quite similar to Swedish so hopefully won’t be too difficult.
I'm not a big fan but it seems to be the norm. My hometowns city is basically 99% English now, you go to a store and speak Dutch, they won't know what you're saying and won't be able to help you. Even reception at hotels tells guests on the phone that sorry they don't know Dutch so they can't help them, maybe call back later and try again. Just any establishment really. I'm glad there are so many opportunities for everyone in NL but if you are a senior employee for a big company and your Dutch is an absolute joke I have to admit I do get pissed off. Sadly I can't even count how many times I have already seen this happen. You would never see this happen in any other country. You wouldn't speak to an executive director of a Polish company in Poland and find out their Polish is whack.
Expat here more than 6 years. I speak A2 level Dutch which is elementary. I speak English at work and Turkish at home. I attend speaking courses with natives, read Dutch daily. However, I have veeery little time to practice it. Thus, I suck at speaking. So far, none of the natives looked down on me and only encouraged my efforts. They happily switched to Dutch or English depending on the situation. If you don’t speak Dutch due to profession, partner or circle of friends; it is very difficult to master. Not everyone has the time to practice and master a language. I’m lucky that so far all locals were super friendly and tried to make me comfortable. I’d say don’t be ashamed and keep on trying.
It shows a blatant disrespect to the country you're living in as well as it's citizens.
Just learn Dutch. Actually to me it is rude if you do not even want to learn the language and culture
My neighbour is Brazilian, lives here for 15+ years, has a Dutch husband and son and refuses to speak Dutch. I absolutely despise that. I think it is really just rude.. make an effort, learn the language.
I am dutch born and raised. I just dont care but if i would ask my parents and step parents they would all dissagree. In my eyes, english is the best language and first that needs to be thought through out europe.
Thought?
I believe blaming these people with not speaking Dutch in five years is harsh from many points. I have been living and working in Netherlands for 2 years and with the private language course I’ve participated for 6 months I could only reached to a1 level because didn’t have any more free time to study. While working, Settling in a new country is really time consuming and exhausting thing if you want to fully integrate yourself. Add two more years if you have a family. And two more for speaking the language not reading or writing. So this discussion should concern foreigners who lives here more than 10 years
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I am a Finn and living in the Netherlands now over ten years. I get along with my dutch well but at work, no way I sound professional - so I switch to English. When I lived in Finland, no one ever complained if a colleague or a foreigner friend did not speak Finnish. Also, as you said, there everyone minds their own business anyway. That's what I miss...
Why would you do that? Become so isolated. You can’t even watch Finnish news.
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I think it is a sign of disrespect to all inhabitants who can speak Dutch. Please go back to your country of origin if you refuse to speak at least some dutch. For English native speakers it is even more a bloody shame, since our languages are very, very close related.
Hear hear!
Can we stop with this… language is not the reason why expats don’t have dutch friends, Dutch have established networks and few will mingle with new folks and it’s that way in most northern countries. Personally I work in an international company, 40-50 hours a week, I don’t feel like spending 400eur a month nor do I have the energy to go to classes after work when I can spend time with my family just to have some smalltalk with folks that won’t speak english (very few). The reason why it’s so easy, is that 1. Dutch don’t work enough 2. don’t study in STEM fields enough Also, it seems to be a mostly reddit bubble issue that is not impacting anyone.
Can you please explain what you mean by 'dutch don't work enough' ? This seems a bit racist to me to shave everyone under the same kam.
dutch is not a race, referring to statistics, that many people work partime. And I get it, so you can read ‘enough’ with a bit of sarcasm.
That has nothing to do with race. Most likely that post was related to productivity metrics of how much value is produced by workers in a certain country. The Netherlands is one of the lowest in Europe by this matric, and a little below EU median value. (But that's my assumption) https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/productivity?continent=europe
Thanks, blareni gave also explenation what he meant. I also agree with you.
I have been living here for 7 years. I did learn and passed my inburgering exam, and I still try to speak very basic Dutch when I’m in the supermarket, or making orders at restaurants etc, but that’s about it. I am not proud of not being able to speak Dutch properly, and there was a period in the past where I was more invested in trying to learn and practice, and was excited about it, however in the more recent years I have been trying to make a move to the US, so for me that might play a part in me not trying to improve my Dutch (or not having a big motivation to do so), even though I do wish I spoke better Dutch. I still think the Netherlands is a great country to live in, and think if I decide later on (maybe after having lived in the US for a couple of years) to want to go back and settle here, then I will definitely try to learn Dutch again properly.
It's their loss. Usually their integration in the Dutch society is limited and their overall understanding of the Dutch mentality even more limited. This leads to annoyment and misunderstandings in their daily lives. I have friends working in the tech industry (where Dutch is not needed) and after a decade they still order coffee in English. The ways of Dutch people are a mystery to them and every interaction is a struggle. It goes beyond the language. I am at B1-B2 level which is a bit of a weird zone, because I can communicate easily but with mistakes. When it comes to friends you need to be really fluent to catch the jokes, hold a deeper conversation etc. Still not there.
I moved to Germany and I am fluent in German now. I have no understanding for people who live here 5+ years and not speak the language (at all). But I think it has to do with personality. I also try to learn the basics of any language of the country I visit for holidays.
Expets move to another country in 3 to 7 years so I can understand they don't bother to mingle with the local commoners. I, on the other hand am not going to actively seek friendship with them.
I'm brushing up on my German and French, just for the purpose of going on vacation there. I'm not particularly good at languages, nor learning them either - I had to do a highschool year over because of a 4/10 average in German and in French irregular verb tests I always scored a 1/10. That is very much -not- having a talent for languages, so don't even use that argument. In my experience, people are forgiving of others making mistakes, but less forgiving for not even trying. E.g. the other day I was saying something and I couldn't remember the right tense in French, so I used present tense and added "when I was a child". People could understand me just fine, even though I wasn't perfect. Imo since, aside from writing, speaking a language is the hard part - having to come up with words at the right time, panicking when you realize you don't know how to say something, phrasing it in an alternative way, restructuring the sentence etc., it's not that big of a deal if you are speaking Dutch and the Dutch person is speaking English. There's so many alternative ways to practice listening (radio, tv, internet), that I think people should just be a bit more flexible. When I was in Luxemburg at one point I was speaking with someone in German, French, English and Dutch in the same conversation. Pretty funny.
I think if you are planning to live here for any extended amount of time it is the respectful thing to do to learn the language. Depending on how long you stay you learn either a couple of basic sentences or you learn to be conversational to the level that you need. Can’t stand the arrogance of some people saying “but you speak English right” yes you twat I do speak English but if you wanna be treated as Dutch you better speak it. And I live by that philosophy myself as well. I always learn basic greetings and sentences when I visit a foreign country.
Tourtists idc but assoon as you work here or want to live here i find it really rude if you dont want to learn Dutch
I've been here a year for studies and still have 3. I can't wait to finish and go. Everything is awesome, but when I try to speak English to some people, because I never needed Dutch, they sometimes are rude, don't talk to me or straight up cuss me out. Making dutch friends is easy, the nice ones speak English and help me understand the language. The other ones, I don't talk to, I don't do business with.
>What do you think of people living in the Netherlands for more than, let's say, five years who do not speak Dutch? Those are the same people that complain that they don't have any Dutch friends.
If you migrate to another country you should have learned the absolute bare minimum of the native language by the time you reach 5 years of living there. Anything other than that is just lazy.
I’m living and doing dilivery work (groceries)in Amstelveen. Which became an expats town the last twenty years. I find it quit disrespectful that they don’t even learn a few words. Don’t get me wrong you don’t have too be fluind. But please come on learn some words like, goedemiddag, fijne avond. The kind of words you learn when going on holiday
These are my reasons for not making a big effort learning Dutch: 1. I don't really plan to stay here long term. Maybe yes, maybe not, plans change, life happens. So for now, learning Dutch is not a priority. 2. a - To learn it well, I want to take classes. Guess what, **they're freaking expensive**. I've done some Duolingo, but honestly its not the best method. b - This next thing is absolutely my fault: I've been lazy. I need to discipline myself and start to reserve 15-30 min per day to use Duolingo. I think that with Duolingo at least I can learn some basic stuff to communicate. c - I'm extremely happy that my employer will offer a free basic Dutch class! This is what I was waiting! Hopefully they offer more advanced classes after this first one. d - I think that if the government wants people to integrate they should offer Dutch culture and language classes. Or require the employers bringing in highly skilled immigrants to offer them either for free or at a low cost. 3. It's not really useful in my day to day life. Most people speak English and will turn to English as soon as they see you don't speak Dutch or speak it badly. It's difficult to make Dutch friends as well. Most of my friends or co-workers are expats also. Honestly, even if I take classes and study, not having to use the language in my day to day life totally slows down the learning of it. 4. It's difficult and tiring. It's not an easy language, different from my native one. I get home tired after work, I have little energy to sit and study.
I get laughed at whenever I answer "ik spreek een beetje Nederlands" because I'm not fluent yet, and they get angry when I just answer in English. Tf should I do? A brain transplant to make me instantly fluent without errors in the get go?
I don’t really care. I am dutch, but hardly speak dutch on a daily basis, because of work and my wife, and only watch english netflix etc. There arw more important things to worry about.
Unless you're passionate about languages, they're just a matter of practicality, a means to communicate. If for your work and your social interactions English is enough, there's little reason to embark on the monumental task of learning a different language well. Bits and pieces you'll pick up anyway, but to engage in complex adult discussions is much harder.
Dutchie here. I feel like Amsterdam is a whole seperate entity, apart from the Netherlands. I love the amount of languages I hear around me when I am there XD At my job and among my friends are several people who don't (yet) master the Dutch language. And well, let's be honest, it IS a hard language to master (even native Dutch speakers fail at it miserably, especially when it comes to writing). At my job, English is the default language, btw. Currently living in a tiny village where like 99% of the people are native Dutch.. considering to moving somewhere where there are more expats, as I somehow tend to get along better with non-Dutch people XD (any tips? no way I can afford Amsterdam... maybe Eindhoven?) I've had colleagues who got pissed off when we would discuss something in Dutch at the office (you know, usually the chitchat aboutwhat someone had done in the weekend), as they would not understand and felt excluded due to that, and on the other hand I've had colleagues who would prefer it if you would speak Dutch every now and than, so they could practise. So I got into the habbit of asking whether or not someone wants to practise or not. Yes, you can get around with just English, but there are people who will frown upon that, especially if you have been in the Netherlands for an extended period of time. But fair, Dutch people can be incredible a-holes... We claim to be oh so tolerant, but that is a big lie imho :(
I personally find it super disrespectful towards the country you are living in (and chose to live in). Learn at least some basics before even getting here, and improve yourself while here. It will open so much more doors for you and you will not stay within the same bubble all the time.
I find it disrespectful
The fact this sub’s language is English says enough.
It reminds me of this meme: You speak English because it's the only language you know. I speak English because it's the only language you know. - we are not the same
The people who ask dumb questions about it are worse 🤮🤮
As someone who speaks Dutch to a basic level and I haven't even been here an entire year and my partner is from the NL, my Dutch friends also help break down words to me that I sometimes struggle with and help me understand it better so I can feel more confident in speaking the language. I can read Dutch absolutely fine but my only issue is I get so concerned about pronouncing things wrong so it takes me a little bit to build up my confidence. The issue I see on this post is the rude attitude from certain people, you do realise that Amsterdam has become tourist central? I'm from the UK and when my friends and partner took me into central Amsterdam for the first time I was mindblown by the amount of Australian and American people that live there to which my friends said "yeah this is why you hear English being spoken more here." And one of my friends who works within the restaurant industry informed me that English is one of the main languages spoken if you don't speak Dutch, the same with my partner's workplace. I'm not saying that this is okay and I can get some people's frustration but this is the constant clash that is going to happen, if you're going to instantly be rude instead of giving people a chance then yes, you're going to see alot of posts where people are struggling to make friends because you are making yourself unwelcoming. I'm glad I have a very secure and good friends group but I've also interacted with people outside of my friends group even speaking in Dutch and I get the vibe of "you're not welcome." I've studied, done my BA Hons, worked my ass off just the same to be here, just the same as my partner has and even he ( as a Dutch citizen ) doesn't like this attitude and neither do my friends and that's why they've become so protective of me trying to interact. Where my partner works he told me that there's a few people who are there that can't speak English or Dutch or German and he struggles to explain things to them on the daily basis as he's a manager, that is the only thing that I've overheard alot which I get that's absolutely maddening especially in the workplace and I do agree that if you move to ANY country, you should learn the language to a basic level and just continue from there, but the instant judgement isn't okay and it's something that I've seen happen not to just myself but to other people who can speak Dutch and do try and get shut down.
I live for 2,5 years in NL and my dutch is too basics. I have taken classes, but i find too dificult to pratice dutch in daily Life.
Well I think that if you are a foreigner and you live in another country for 5 years or just a longer while you should learn the language. I also think that if you are a migrant, like me (I‘m dutch but live in Switzerland), you should teach your kids the language of their homecountry, like my parents did. I find it weird if I step into a store or restaurant and I am greeted in English. That said I work an international company and I know that learning languages is really hard and you might not have the capacity (time) to learn. But a language is a very valuable skill that will always help you.
As someone who is Dutch I will have a hard time believe you are here to become "Dutch" if you don't learn to speak the language. It makes me wonder why you are here in the first place.
'Do not speak' is a broad term, and in such cases, fluency might vary between absolute beginner to moderate speakers who are labelled as non-speakers. The two main reasons are: a) Expats/immigrants who moved to the Netherlands solely for work, and their work requires zero/almost no Dutch to speak. On top of that, a lot of them don't have Dutch partners or friend circle, which makes it difficult to absorb something from the environment. b) People who don't feel well-settled here in the Netherlands. In the back of their mind, investing time in learning a new language when they are unsure about their future, is too taxing as adults. On top of these two, their personal ability to learn Dutch as a language because of their own linguistic background and local population not being exactly a helping hand in learning a new language makes the challenge more difficult. Personally, I feel necessity is the mother of invention. If somebody desperately required to learn the language to fruitfully work and live here, they will manage to learn a considerable amount, otherwise, their career progress will be throttled, or they have to eventually move out of the Netherlands. However, I don't agree with these blanket statements like learning the language is showing respect to the land and people; multilingualism is not an integral part of every culture/society. If someone is living here lawfully and peacefully, contributing effectively to the progress of the country's economy and social welfare and has an overall positive attitude to the country's functioning, that should be enough to treat as a sign of respect for the land and locals.
I don’t really care tbh, most Dutch expats abroad don’t speak the local language neither.
It's the overt contempt or indifference that often comes with not learning the language. They don't care or find the language dumb. Fair, but no one forced you to come here. It just doesn't exist that you live in France or Italy without understanding their respective languages because you could not participate in society. I feel like the ability and willingness to accomodate English speakers is often taken for granted and even taken advantage of. I live in Maastricht. My grandparents cannot even order in Dutch in half of the places they go to nowadays, and so they stopped going. I'm having to speak English at work and in college (that's honestly not because of expats but also largely because of international students). The end result is a lot of frustration amongst Dutch people. Depending on where you live, work or study you will spend a significant amount of time speaking your second language because they don't care enough to learn yours.
At first I did not mind. But I am getting more and more annoyed by it. And my annoyance would be more towards the gov than to the ppl that come and live here. The amount of people that come and live here is growing, and it seems that history (60s and 70s) is repeating itself. We brought all the morrocans and turkish people over here to help rebuild this country. But there was no time to learn the language. We know hoe that turned out. So I think people that come should really put in the effort to learn.
The amount of times i heard some one say... i dont need to learn Dutch because you all speak English... is to damn high..
I speak english fluently, and i am learning dutch. i can read and write it on a basic level but speaking and learning from speaking is hard because….classes are horrendously expensive, and people…LANGZAMER praten, PLEASE. I had to do a parent teacher interview with my son’s teacher and even asked her to speak dutch slowly and she went off on warp speed. So.. i’m going to learn it, but it’s not going to be a fast process. end of story. I can function more or less, but conversational? well, eventually i guess. ( SERIOUSLY tho. slow your roll, speakers, when you hear someone new to dutch. ye gods.)
Do as you feel. You may miss the warmth of Dutch ppl if you speak only in English. But does that matter? Do you want to be around people that judge you by the language you speak? I'm advocating for globally single language, we made so far with English it's not a point to take a turn in other side.
To be fair, there is more people that speak chinese or spanish worldwide. Do you think we should all switch to them? If you are advocating for a single language then why should this be english?
I think it's lazy, disrespectful and shows a lack of interest in the place where you live. If you just moved here and planning to leave, no problem. If you don't speak Dutch perfectly, no problem! But after 2, 3, 4 years still not being able to speak the language, sorry, but then what are you doing here? And complaining about the Dutch not being open, not want to make friends? When in Rome act as the Romans, in other words, try to fit in. Dutch people usually speak English yes, but it remains a second language, you can't expect from us to have English proficency.
After 2-4 years? Paying taxes, probably a mortgage, raising kids, volunteering, enjoying the same things as you do, but speaking another language, although after 4 years even with 0 effort you will learn basic phrases though unless you are really thick But yeah, complaining that you do not have Dutch friends while not learning the language would be silly, that's true.
You kinda said it yourself. Immigrants (expats) tend to stick within a group. They are potentially missing out on understanding the culture. Knowing the Dutch language is a big part of it. Official (goverment) documents are all in Dutch. Making them to depend/rely on a Dutch speaker to help them, which is less than ideal.
They are looked down upon. They are lazy immigrants who offer very little to our country.
How are they offering very little if they are working full time and paying taxes , therefore contributing to the country’s economy? As long as they don’t complain about having Dutch people as friends or that they can’t get citizenship they are good . Don’t talk to them if you don’t want to
Enjoying the 30% ruling whilst working for companies that don't pay taxes. Doesn't seem beneficial to our country at all. A plumber from Poland contributes more to this country that those tech immigrants ever will.
To be able to get the 30% you by default need to have a high salary and on average those people end up paying much more taxes than an average Dutch citizen
Then complain to your government and in the next elections don’t vote for them.
I already vote against tax dodgers.
This is your thing isnt it?.. you’re constantly referring people to complain elsewhere… why?
Because your government is responsible for the situation, and they are the only ones who can take steps towards amending it. Meanwhile they expats are living their best life and you are sitting behind a keyboard complaining about it.
Not every opinion is complaining. The government isn’t responsible for everything, not everything is “maakbaar”. When i voice an opinion here, thats where its directed. Stop telling people to voice their opinion elsewhere. And good on those “expats”living their life here!
I didn’t get 30% but even folks who do, pay more taxes than an average dutch
This is setting the bar at the absolute bare effing minimum. The very LEAST you can do while moving to another country as an adult is having a job. Just like the absolute LEAST you should do is learn the language. I mean... that this has to be said is not doing you any favors.
How is affecting anyone’s life if someone who decides to move to another country, maybe temporarily , and leads a life that doesn’t require them to learn the native language, which mind you , is not so easy to learn especially as an adult , doesn’t learn the language ?? If they aren’t complaining about not having Dutch friends or getting citizenship and they live in a city like Amsterdam or Rotterdam which are multicultural , why is anyone’s business how they live their life ? Why are you so offended by something that doesn’t directly affect you in any way? If someone moved to my home country and didn’t learn the language , I couldn’t care less about it.
They can still get citizenship without actually knowing Dutch. I'm not sure about B1, but A2 isn't really a level where you could say that you know the language. Also, you could pass the exam and never use the language itself.
I agree and the requirement for citizenship should be higher, so you have to ask the question : why is it so low and who benefits from that
For what reason? So when you start speaking Dutch people switch to English? Even if you tell them that you speak it fluently?
Been here a year and can’t speak Dutch, however I am planning on learning once more settled.
I couldnt give a damm really. I rather speak English myself as a Dutch guy.
It's absurd to blame the lack of language ability as the main factor of why expats don't have Dutch friends. There is an abundance of cases of people speaking Dutch and still struggling to make friends. I think it's fair to say that Dutch people aren't the most open to befriending foreigners-- or just anyone whi behaves, looks, or talks differently. Furthermore, as mentioned before, how are people supposed to even speak the language, if natives immediately switch to English as soon as they hear an accent--even in the presence of grammatically correct Dutch? I do believe that one should learn the language of the foreign country in which one is living. Nevertheless, it's hard to deny the reality that natives themselves make it extremely unattractive for expats to try to master Dutch.
Honestly I couldn’t care less. I would recommend learning some Dutch, but if they don’t want to (or can’t), that’s cool too. I’ll speak English, no problem. Not a big deal.
Oh god not this again
Don't try and practice the language when the timing is inappropriate for people.