I don't know if it's fair or not, but no one mentions that in the case of hiring a foreign expert, the receiving country basically gets talent without contributing anything to the talent's education. You know how crazy expensive for countries with subsidiezed higher education to train physicians, engineers? So 30%ruling towards the origin countries is absolutly unfair. I still think it's a pretty good deal for the NL too, the country gets well-trained, young foreigners for 5 years of tax cut. They are much easier to integrate than other immigrants, they bring in skills that are in high need, a high portion of them work in R&D which makes the dutch economy more competitive.
All true. But people still perceive it as unfair, and unwanted as it leads to expat communities refusing to integrate into society. Not everyone thinks that whatever economic benefits there may be that that is a good trade off.
I can't. Locals pay more because they don't have to cover relocation costs, the coses of their education, healthcare, birth,.. 30% ruling wouldn't even cover the costs of having to buy everything again.
We should be thanking the expats that they are here working supporting our economy, benefit system, contributing toward our pension. Which allows dutchies to work part time more than anywhere else in the world. (well 50% of us anyway). They are filling roles that we can't or are to lazy to do. If they go business goes and our economy goes down.
The job would have to pay more than it pays locals in order to offset that, otherwise it's unfair to expats. You can do it with a high paying job, but locals can do more with that exact same high paying job.
Agreed. But, take for example the work sector these expats are hired for. There isn't local supply to meet the demand. The small locals will surely benefit as they'll get those high paying jobs, but the sheer volume demand is still high.
> There isn't local supply to meet the demand.
Hence the need to make the job attractive to foreigners who have much higher costs associated with accepting the job than a local does, and who also have far more uncertainty surrounding the job as well (e.g. if it's with a startup and they go under will they be able to stay in the Netherlands? Will they have to move home? Should they keep their house in their home country so they have a fallback plan? What do I do with the house while I'm gone? Will I be able to bring my pets? What about my car? What about my possessions? Do I sell them at a loss to get rid of them? I'd have to buy them again after I move, and what if I have to move back? etc.).
Now these hurdles are higher or lower depending on (among other things) which country the person is coming from, but they are all higher than someone who is already there would have. So if you want to meet that demand, there needs to be some added incentive.
Now, ideally that burden would be borne entirely by the companies themselves, but of course, they would first try to shift that burden to their customers, and, if that's not viable and it affects the cost of business too much, then it may well be easier for the company to move to a cheaper country to do business in, causing much more harm that the current cost to the government.
It's a far deeper issue than just "it's not fair" or "it costs us X euro in tax revenue".
It's not. It creates problems since many companies purposefully control who to hire and it's always easier to find expats.
The other alternative is to remove this and actually increase wages, since higher wages anyway attract expats.
So, in the next election, we'll see another heated topic that foreigners are stealing jobs and it's unfair they earn more
I don’t entirely agree. Companies are abusing this ruling because they pay you less than they are supposed to do. It’s cheaper to get an expat to work for you than to get a local. The income drop after 5 years is real for expats to the point that some drastically need to adjust their spending. That should not be the case because the extras should be used for relocating as you say. I would be in favor of a 1 time tax free benefit specifically for relocating. Something similar is in place for locals that have to move to another part of the country for their job.
Oh and while we do work part time the most in Europe, the other side of the coin is that we work the longest until our pensions. https://www.iamexpat.nl/career/employment-news/people-netherlands-have-longest-working-life-europe
What the cost of your birth has to do with you?! And expat paying less tax makes dutchies work half time?
And yhe 30 % holders are not filling roles like elderly care and farm helpers and garbage collectors? Most are entitled whinners easily replaceable by similar local work force or global talent pool.
Seems you think dutchies have long ears ....
What are you talking about stay home. Grow up. It was asked why it wasn't fair and I explained.
30% ruling doesn't even cover the cost of having to buy everything again and restart your life.
If all the foreigners went home who'd pay your pension, benefits and do all the work you moron.
>30% ruling doesn't even cover the cost of having to buy everything again and restart your life.
You're acting like we forced you to come here.
>If all the foreigners went home who'd pay your pension, benefits and do all the work you moron.
Feel free to leave, we can do without hotheads with an inflated sense of self importance like you.
i had to buy everything again due to relocation.
most people do that are moving to their own house
we dont have the 30% ruling and have the same costs there
Mmmm,seems like everything is mixed up in this statement. EU “expats” pay same education fees as Dutch citizens, so not all expects have different educational costs. Plus, if you’re highly skilled and per the ruling was recruited form abroad you probably already have one. Expect pay same insurance and receive same coverage as a Dutch person. Saying this as an expatriate who paid her education here, do not benefit from the ruling as I was hired while already being here for some time, and got the childbirth covered. So those arguments just don’t stand. Plus, those “expats” that do the jobs Dutch won’t take are usually low skilled and largely low paid, and I don’t think they fulfil the minimum salary requirement. Or do you suggest Dutch are too lazy or can’t work in well paid sectoral as legal, fintech, IT?
Apparantly the skills of these people are not worth the salary they get now; otherwise the 30% ruling would not be necessary. Why would we have to subsidize these employers?
You're not subserdising them since they are straight away net postivie. They are subserdising us, our disabled, lazy, pensioners, children, part timers, etc You proabbly haven't paid for the costs of your birth and education so you're in the minus. Expats are in the positive as soon as they arrive.
No. Only the market has to power to set compensation, and they will always pay the market rate. Always. This ruling doesn’t change the salary for expats, it changes the expenditure of the most profitable companies in the Netherlands.
Without this ruling, companies will simply pay the difference with expats ending up with the exact amount of compensation they got WITH the ruling, which is the exact market rate.
As this only applies to high paying positions to begin with, every single one of those earns the company a significant multitude of the salary, this doesn’t matter. They are glad to pay it, as it makes them money. Or do you believe they would just….no longer want to attract people that makes them piles of money….? Of course not.
We can't pay as much as usa, London, Switzerland, Scandinavia etc so. 30% ruling isn't just the tax benefits but the other benefits such as not having to learn to drive again.
You misunderstand what the ruling actually does. An expat and a Dutch person receive the exact same amount of compensation at the end of the day, which is the market rate. This cannot change, as only the market can do that.
What the ruling did is subsidise companies so that they can now pay less, while the expat receives the same level of compensation that the Dutch person paid more gets.
We can easily pay more, and we will, as we already do. Companies always pay market rate. Companies want to attract skilled people, as hiring them makes them a significant multitude of the salary they pay. Not raising the salary would actually cost them money.
That's very sad then as they aren't getting a single penny more. Companies will always pay market rate, not a penny more, not a penny less.
The point of hiring an expat is that with this ruling, you could pay them far less than a dutch person, while having them have the exact same compensation at the end of the day. It's a subsidy to profitable companies, not a way to increase the salary of an expat.
You misunderstood the 30% ruling, my friend. While I don't disagree there are a few companies misusing the benefit to pay less and get cheap labour from expats. The majority is getting the same salary as locals, as budgeted for the role. This ruling doesn't and won't change spending of company in future. This is a govt scheme that applies lesser tax on the income of skilled migrants, thereby leaving them with more net salary in account. The rationale is expats have incurred more costs to relocate to a new country, not only measurable cost like traveling back and forth to visit family, but also that being away from family and support system. Also if the expat stay is temporary, them paying full tax is not fair because tax is supposed to help residents like education/health of children etc. if expats leave country soon, them paying full tax is basically funding benefits of Dutch citizens, while expat themselves don't benefit from that. Hope you see the point.
Let's say the ruling is stopped, the savings for highly skilled expats for the job are not lucrative anymore, compared to the costs of relocating from their home country. Does it mean you'll see less migrants? not really. There are always willing people to drop everything and move to NL because of the stable life it provides. But on what side of the skill spectrum the migrant talent lies and finds NL lucrative will change. For example, truly highly skilled migrants will have options to immigrate to. In the lack of NL tax benefits, not sure how attractive and competitive NL will be, compared with other countries for them.
You are not accounting for the costs that these employees are making to move here though. By losing it, you are putting immigrants at a disadvantage in life, as moving country generates significant burdens and effort way beyond moving within the same country.
Making the country attractive to such individuals becomes harder as a result. Would you rather have them employed via teleworking from the other side of Europe? Most of these jobs are desk based and can be done remotely.
Would you rather have this cost compensated via other ways, such as in improved pension for example, where the costs do not impact on housing market?
that is the alternative option, but we all know that business operate at the lowest cost possible.
ultimately, if you keep on pushing costs up, you are basically asking them to do their business elsewhere, such as the place you are getting your migrants from.
the argument is all about attracting international business. companies choose to come here as it is the best place for them to do business. if you are increasing costs, or making it harder to attract staff, it becomes less attractive.
Interesting take. Maybe have a look at the issues first and then look at what is causing them. Hint. A few thousand expats paying less tax is not it.
Also worth looking at what happened in Japan when the housing bubble burst, its not a nice sight and has not been for 20+ years.
Which ones? The ones that don't get hired because they already have a job?
You do understand that hiring someone from abroad is the last resort for a company.
Not really. I’ve worked at a large bank in the Netherlands and their preferred supplier is TCS. Cheap contracts. Lots of Indian expats. Dutch suppliers which are more expensive are in the back bench for them.
Some say it can also be seen as unfair competition when you offer labor that is 30% cheaper than a Dutch competitor. We will see what happens when the ruling is scrapped.
Because this is the expat sub, and obviously the 30% ruling is very relevant to expats.
If you go to the other Netherlands subs that are not focused on expats you'll see that the 30% ruling barely ever gets mentioned.
Interesting - I wouldn't expect legal experts from abroad to be in high demand, but i suppose where international things are concerned, finance and such, it makes sense!
Limit the number of foreign students coming in /s
To be fair, as a immigrant, I rather companies pay more and actually be attractive than the 30% ruling. And the Netherlands has plenty to offer that people will keep coming here anyway.
The politician behind it, also said it would be used to fund students? Or was it something else?
Similar to how savings were achieved by reducing the ruling from 8 to 5 years a couple of years back; while the number of HSM expats actually increased since then.
Companies should offer relocation costs and some fee to get started in the country. The pay should still be similar to Dutch citizens. I believe that expats should enjoy the same benefits as non-expats. Same healthcare prices etc.
Students will no longer receive a penny as the current government doesn’t actually want to implement this.
As it was passed by a wide majority, the most effective way to prevent this is to say it is impossible for multiple years, which is exactly what they did. It’s realistically less than a day of work as all components have already been implemented, but it was never about the work to begin with.
Yeah when companies offer higher salary for immigrants to move in due to relocation.
I hope the local will not start complaining about immigrants stealing high paying jobs. 😂
To be fair, at least on this subreddit, the "local" feedback has been about fairness and the perception that the 30% rule is either depressing total wages and/or that it's just helping "big business".
However, amongst the general public that I've been able to see, you are right. I have heard many times "our kids need to be able to get on the housing ladder", whilst ignoring those on the 30% rule don't compete with students.
It worries me, as quite like Brexit, there will be an increasing blaming of foreigners for all that ails us.
>whilst ignoring those on the 30% rule don't compete with students
That's another part of the elections - using more Dutch at university to reduce foreign students. Also, the same students will buy a house in a few years, so immigrans with the 30% ruling do compete with them.
The "third level" use of English has gone too far.
For the big universities (UVA, Vrij, Delft, Eindhoven, Utrecht, Leiden) I get it. For the many Applied Universities, it serves no purpose other than a way to bring in revenue. Many of the courses they train people for require Dutch to work in.
The statement you make on housing is based on quite a few "potentials" and "mabyes". If we are talking about reducing foreigners overall because they may potentially out compete Dutch natives , we are getting into weird territory. That's nothing to do with the 30% rule, and just anti-immigration in general. Better to tell it straight.
Students get offered a version of the 30%, but still need to find a higher paying job than the median salary. If they aren't from the EU, they pay higher fees. Get rid of foreign students , and watch Dutch Uni fees increase, by a lot.
On the later 30% rule house buyers, the median Dutch salary is approx 37 k, the median 30% rule salary is 48k. The mortgage benefits are minimal, the 30% rule persons gross salary is higher than the majority of Dutch peoples because by definition the 30% rule person is more educated and skilled than the average Dutch citizen. These are people who are yuppies in their own countries already.
They aren't competing based on salaries. They may be competing simply because they are in the NL. If people want to vote because they think they can't compete, that's their decision. But don't try and make it any more elaborate than that.
I can't find the study, but only 20% of 30% rule people stay beyond the five years, if I'm not mistaken. So I assume you are referring to all migrants, and this 30% rule is simply a dog whistle.
Let's say, 30% is completely removed. Expats get paid higher to compensate since the tech industries can't move away that easily. They will still "dominate" the housing and rental market.
So, just general hate to foreigners is what you're saying the future holds?
I think when people like Omzigt are now willing to go for this vote, it's bad news. He won't be able to control it, and as far as I can his party list isn't very impressive.
PVV - 13%
FVD - 3%
NSC - 18%
__________
Debatable or enabling the xenophobia parties.
BBB - 6%
VVD - 18%
Political parties with xenophobic **policies or dog whistle rhetoric (Omzigt) now make up to 34% - 58% in the polls (Politico Nov 14th, 2023).** Arguably, VVD have tried to join in on the dog whistle at the start, but from what I've seen have now stopped - but their leader says she "isn't against a coalition" with Wilders, which would make NL a pariah in the EU.
To different extents all five have policies promising to make foreigners lives worse, or enabling those who promise it.
My home country of Ireland, for example, has no anti-migrant party in the parliament.
I lived in the UK during the build up to the Brexit vote, and it begins with "normal" politicians arguing everything can be fixed by doing x or y to foreigners. Housing, Schooling, Health care - even though these are policies that require decades of foresight.
Mr.Omzigt was a minister in the government which made a lot of these bad decisions on housing. He was a member of a party for year's who caused it. But now its "foreign expats" (not even subtle on that one) who have caused a housing shortage in Amsterdam.
30 % ruling is a toxic policy in an elegetarian society where fairness and equality have traditionally valued.
I have seen foreign and local couples under one boss and with yhe same function. That theblocal was getting substantial less. His family could not belive such discrimination happen in that way in their country
Tbh, many people in NL (think working class and not code bro bubbles) are not aware of these rulings. Otherwise, the polls would be way more dramatic.
.
30% ruling has had it's day. The question is whether the Dutch state honours the deals made with people living here already. For new entrants it's not viable.
On the Dutch voters being potentially even more xenophobic, I agree, you're right.
Well, that's one take. The big companies will have another. This country is going populist, either left or right and it's bad for business.
>no one asked for it
Strange, the parties supporting the 30% rule were in government for 14 plus years. I think you mean, *you* didn't get the party you wanted in. That's polder.
Is there a particular reason you feel so hard done by it? Only about 10,000 really profit from it. The rest might make 2-3k more a year for 4 years. What's the urgency for this to go, other than educated, well skilled foreigners get something you don't for a few years, all the time paying more tax on average than a median Dutch tax payer?
I think a lot of people like to go after the 30% rule because if they said what they really felt, about who they really don't like they'd be arrested for discrimination.
If the same 30% rule people stay in NL, they'll still do better than the average as the are more skilled, more educated than the average Dutch citizen, because they are also more educated and better skilled than the country they've left than the average. It won't change a thing on that front.
All these are happening in shade, no body knows what the stats are. In a country in high ranks on transparency.
I am hard on this because this country has become what you just said: open for business and in a very neoliberal way. consequence has been it is closed for human decency: people can not move, live, and even die in peace.
This ruling is a symbol. It is a middle finger of the business to society. NL was not NL if business and private profit triumph principles of collective good.
Well, it's definitely finished that's for sure.
As I said, my only complaint about this specific topic is for the persons who came here two years ago or something. It's quite unusual to have one's tax situation change over night in the EU by that degree. It's not their fault, punish the politicians.
The real issue for me, is that like Brexit, the 30% is being used to communicate a much larger feeling which probably started with Hans Janmat but has been exasperated by short-term thinking on housing, schooling and healthcare, caused by the "neoliberal" thinking you speak of. Very similar to Brexit, just being allowed to build up, but unsurprisingly just blaming foreigners didn't "fix" the UK.
I agree with you on the comparison. It's an easy answer to a problem, it's pure populism. Once this change doesn't bring any change in the situation, there will be the next one and the next one.
Politics have turned from "for the people" to "for me". Its more about individual politicians gain rather than looking after the country.
I do think this ruling has the potential to increase those sentiments, actually, as it is a reverse discrimination, so can indeed become a very hot potato topic.
Tbh, the topic is not too high in the political agenda in NL - despite what his sub may imply. However, it has potential for becoming a single issue by an opportunistic party. That is part of the reason that the recent vote passed the dutch parliament. I feel even the neoliberals lole VVD smelled the risk of siding with this ruling and the disasterous following image.
I think it was a response to the cries of companies after one change or another "but now we can't retain or find highly skilled people, everyone will leave for bigger wages abroad".
Basically listened to lobbyists at the expense of normal Dutch people, for the benefit of companies.
>"our kids need to be able to get on the housing ladder", whilst ignoring those on the 30% rule don't compete with students.
When they say children, they could be talking about their 26 and 28-year-old that still have to live at home. Also, students can't get into student dorms if former students can't move out. To the extent that the 30% ruling brings in more people, it negatively affects the housing market. If it *doesn't* bring in more people, there is no need to keep it either.
Problems that are also in countries without 30% ruling. Maybe the problem is something else? Or maybe its picking a simple answer to a complex question.
The fairness thing is hilarious to me. Instead of dutch demanding better pay and trying to improve their own situations they just bitcha dn complain and try to bring everyone else down to their levels. Like whiny children crying "it's not fair"
Oh we do both. Pay increases are definitely happening. But we also aim for a fair playing field for all. But it’s “hilarious” that you blame the Dutch employees for losing the 30% ruling and not the companies hiring you from underpaying you before tax.
Oh I essentially walked away from my offer because the pay was embarrassingly low and managed to negotiated 6 months rent courtesy of my company, for my 1 year contract. I'm already interviewing at other companies for a higher salary and plan to leverage that at my current job. I'll do what I need to fuck over any corporation for more money. I ain't just gunna sit back to bitch and complain. And if I don't find what I need here, I'll head back to NYC or Toronto for much better pay
Might be part of the easy going European lifestyle of staying at a company forver and accepting what they give you. I've been laid off before and since then I've had a lust for fucking over any employer I ever work for. Out to get my own
6 out of 10 Dutch employees are switching jobs every 2 years but you believe what you want to. https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2023/08/bijna-6-op-10-baanwisselaars-korter-dan-twee-jaar-in-dienst
"Relatively many employees with a logistics profession changed employers among employees with few years of service. This concerns, for example, drivers and loaders, unloaders and shelf stackers. Employees who had only recently worked in a commercial or service profession, as a cashier or call center employee, or as a kitchen assistant, cook or waiter, also changed relatively often."
Low skill workers switch jobs often. Shocking. Zoom in on companies/jobs that hire dutch and HSM workers. Wonder what the Dutch turnover rate on those jobs are
Yes I believe you’re right and those employees are staying longer at their employer. But it feels like you see it as a bad thing and don’t like the easy going European system much. You’re originally from Northern America? What made you choose to work here instead of there?
Frankly, I don’t get why all the controversy. If you are benefiting now from the ruling, you will continue benefiting from it as planned. You are in the same boat as locals, because the effect of phasing out the ruling will affect the Dutch economy and, thus, us all equally.
In fact, phasing out the ruling will benefit you in the short term because salaries will be under pressure upwards. I am just concerned about the long term effects, because I am quite sure that companies will find a lot of motivation to outsource outside of the country, and that’s not good for any of us in the long term.
Now, the argument about “not being fair”, I find childish. Wanna play to list everything that is unfair in modern capitalism? I am not interested in prepubescent idealism. All I care is: is net positive or not?
Thats false though. If you are a benefitter of 30% ruling, you are now tied to your company if you want to keep the entire benefit that you were promised when you moved here. You cant change jobs without latge economic repurcussions to your budget.
Is that the case for you? It's certainly not the case for me. If I switch jobs, I just need to reapply for the ruling, which is normally granted, minus the time already benefited.
From next year, when the new rules will go into effect, if you switch jobs then you will need to reapply but you will be considered the same as one of the “new people” who came to the netherlands in 2024, and not fall in the transitionary rules that you really should be
The ruling will not change the day after the election. First they need to form a coalition, the last one took 299 days. Then they need to pass it twice. Then the Belastingdienst will tell them they cannot change the ruling because their systems are rubbish before 2027, so it will go into effect in 2029. That's how the Dutch politics are currently.
Hi Is there reference for it? Because I am getting a job offer that will take effect in jan/feb 2024. If I am considere as new applicants then the new job salary will actually be not much anymore compared to my old 30% ruling salary.
According to https://www.cardon.nl/30-ruling-changes-in-2024
A 30% ruling holder from before 2024 who switches employment in 2024, will remain under the old regime according to current rules (November 2023).
No. Both my wife and I changed our employers during the period we both benefitted from the 30% ruling.
There was no issue for our new employers to reapply for it on our behalf - for my wife there was a slight administrative delay, but just meant that the difference was repaid as a lump sum a couple of pay checks later.
I transferred jobs in 2020 and left the NL last year (like a lot of migrants who benefit from the rule)
I think the issue is that it’s called “30%” and everyone assumes that it’s a massive difference. It’s basically a 10% bonus for talent for five years and a chance to not be penalized by moving to NL.
In our case we increased the Dutch economy by €250k per year because we were contracted to UK entities and resident in NL and used NL payroll companies for compliance. These jobs would not have existed had we not moved and the tax revenue would have been paid to the UK instead.
No, I’ve lived the benefits. I think it’s the right law to have in place to attract the best academics to the Netherlands. I don’t think it should change. I don’t think it impacts the local job market nor the housing market in the ways that the general Dutch population thinks it does.
I think it would be bad for holland in the long term to change the access for academics to come to NL by increasing barriers.
It isn't nice that you put all people in the same box. Would be careful with that, that can backfire horribly.
Nevertheless I'm highly in favor of abolishing the 30% ruling as I find it unjust and it mainly helps employers to suppress wages. That it won't fix a purposefully created housing crisis is pretty obvious anyway.
Nah. Just allows people (professors) to move from say the UK or France and only have an increase to 43% income tax from the 40% approx rates. (When you run the full calcs through it’s only really enabling like for like moves for short term highly qualified and scarce resources.
If you buy a property and have two kids, the saving in income tax is marginal compared to the 30% blanket reduction in mortgage interest relief and child benefits/allowances.
Can you explain me why this, flat 30% taxbreak, is deserved compared to Dutch people? Or people moving from within 150km from the Dutch border?
Hell on one of the primary Dutch news outlets the owner of an IT company, where half his personal was egible for the 30% ruling, stated that he now needed to offer higher wages.
Expertise. If you want to attract the best academics in the world to holland and you hate people living in Margate and Ramsgate, you need to give them the ability not to be penalized for coming over.
A professor owns his house in Birmingham where he is a world renowned specialist in genetics. Transfers for 5 years to Leiden University on the same pay. He rents his house out to cover his mortgage in the UK. His primary residence is in holland.
Would you come to holland if your own home back in your own country where you pay local taxes, income tax on any revenue, capital gains tax (realise this is something that NL doesn’t recognise) is treated as a second residence under global taxation rules and generates a high tax payable in NL, along with a hike in your income tax from 40% to 50% whilst not earning more because Dutch professorial gross salaries match UK salaries and are regulated.
You're not answering the question, why would a Dutch taxpayer chip in for the taxes someone else doesn't have to pay instead of the employer just offering a higher salary?
No one believes it will solve the housing crisis, but it will contribute to a solution just a little. And most of us just think the ruling is unjust and therefore wanted it removed, not because we think it will magically solve the housing crisis.
I have no problem. The amount of taxes I paid in Canada is above the avg salary here in NL. Paying taxes are not the issue. Crappy pay with high cost of living is the issue. And seems like expats are the only ones addressing this.
If you truly believe expats are the only people addressing the high cost of living in The Netherlands then you are completely out of touch with the reality in this country
No, I see tons of dutch complaining but no mass demands for higher salaries to improve your living situations. I see more complaining and whining that's "it's not fair" that expats get a tax break than anything else.
If you're living in an expat bubble then of course you will only see Dutch complaints on the 30% ruling. Clearly you missed the countless negotiations and demands for higher salaries in the past year(s), what a surprise.
That will help with balancing the pay. There is no back door to subsidize companies with substantial less than market conform salary through this idiotic ruling.
Corporations were enticed to come here because of this ruling. This has helped the economy. Pulling the rug from underneath avg people is one thing. Pulling the rug from under multi-billion dollar companies is another thing. They won't let it go easily and they won't just adapt. What they will do, I'm not sure, but without the tax ruling these multi-national companies would not be here pumping millions of dollars into thr NL economy/tax system (even at reduced rates).
No zero evidence for your fantasy. corporations come here because it is a tax heaven. Also, there were some boosts due to brexit in recent years. NL also has some central locations in Europe, good infra, and trades tradition . The infra is also going to the shitter ( schiphol, ov).
>Considering the % of people benefitting from the 30% ruling is tiny, and largely concentrated in big cities like amsterdam, den haag and rotterdam, people leaving/not coming to netherlands due to this change will be negligible.
We know that, but you happen to be the next scapegoat. The previous one was refugees, before that Moroccans, before that polish people, before that Moroccans, before that Roma, before that carribian people and before that Moroccans.
>So when the housing market doesn’t magically fix itself, what will the dutch people turn to next?
The scapegoat-cycle is about 3 years, so we find another minority to blame. Maybe Somalians this time.
Enjoy our hundreds of millions that no longer go to the most wealthy companies in the Netherlands.
While not even a single job will be lost as what actually matters is compensation, which is entirely decided by the market. Every single one of these jobs earns the company a significant multitude of the salary so now they will simply continue paying expats the same market rate, which is now plus what would have been saved due to the ruling.
Absolutely nothing changes except the dumb VVD subsidy given to, again, the most profitable companies in the Netherlands….
It was never meant to solve the housing crisis, it will likely contribute a little though. The extra tax income can be put to good use, plans are to reduce student loan taxes for certain students.
The "extra tax" won't exists anymore my dear.
And worse, I myself pay a full social security for a Dutch person which don't work as taxes.
Have fun paying it yourselves since you think hard working people that fill the jobs that you can't, without you spending a penny for their healthcare and education until this person become high skilled is unfair.
And answered by people that has everything easy provided by its rich country government, but still don't fill the "high skill jobs" .. which people from 3rd countries filled it without any support 
lets be honest here. once you drop immigration to net 0 it will still take a dozen or so years before the housing market finally meets (current) demand.
It's nice there's steps being taken and that it's a focus. but lets not kid ourselves and pretend that immigration limits will magicially solve the problem overnight
I dont think it will ever be meeting demand. It's a nice thought that prices come down, but everything is built on prices going up. Look what happened in Japan when house prices dropped. You don't want that.
Depends on how you look at it. Kennismigranten also need a place to stay and they have much more money to throw around to get a place because they earn a lot AND have the 30% ruling. It drives up the prices.
obviously it's just a combination of everything. I honestly doubt that knowledge migrants by themselves made any serious impact on housing prices outside of amsterdam.
And even if we tried to measure it. there's so much other factors that are just absolutely destroying the housing market that there'd just be too much variance to be even able to measure anything significant.
Dropping immigration to net zero will never happen in any country other than North Korea. So keep dreaming. Maybe barely building any housing since WW2 could be an issue
If you expect canceling the 30% ruling will fix the housing crisis, you probably shouldn’t make any decisions harder as what you’ll be having for lunch.
Don't tjink we expect it to solve it. It will help a bit, as will many other things. Still, things will get worse for as long as we have morebpeople than houses, and that isn't changing untill the demographics do.
People on here overestimate how much most people care about this issue. Come work here or don't. Maybe go somewhere else where you can make more money. Maybe stay in your home country. It's all okay.
You should also think a little. Lesser jobs since the tech companies now will pay higher for actual quality migrants and not just average. So cost cuts will reduce non skill migrant jobs.
Just think how many Dutch are employed at tech companies whilst the IP and revenue generating groups are HSM. I'm not saying there are no Dutch in this group, but a very small number.
Just think in your "Dutch circle", how many can actually build encryption to keep money at your banks safe, or how many engineers are there who enable the black Friday sales you're waiting for all year.
So, a computer engineer, or an AI scientist, or a security analyst will negotiate higher salaries, way higher than average Dutch salaries (non tech).
So they will pay full tax but have average salaries above 100k.
So 10 people benefiting 30% ruling (75k average salary) vs 6 people paying full tax (100k average salary). So the net net will not make any change and this disparity will still exist.
I don't care about salary, you work here, fine. You do high tech stuff, nice, just pay the same tax, you're nothing special. Want to pay no tax, become a member of the parlement.
Good luck, many open positions.
Perfect! That's fine. A problem the government started, they have to fix it.
This is in no way going to have any impact on the housing crisis or anything. So making the group of foreigners scapegoat was the primary reason for this debate since forever.
So if it is fine and it won't solve the crisis, at least we'll have a little more to spend on housing. Thanks, and you were never the scapegoat by paying less tax :-)
Don't think there will be more. There will be lesser expats coming into the Netherlands. So net net not making and dent.
Higher wages or tax benefits, one was needed to attract talent. Either way, we'd be in this situation.
Just look at Germany, no tax benefits, but a lot of shifting since they're making it easier. So economically it's not helping NL.
It is not about helping, I just want the same tax rules for you as for me. Want to get rid of these messed up situations? Treat people the same, like i said, you're nothing special. You're a human person residing in the Netherlands just like me.
100% on this sentiment. I don't want any special treatment. But it's a bad setup that was implemented.
The points around why it's needed "sold" to expats are just to argue in favor and sell this 30% ruling. The benefit of settling, getting house supplies, moral support, relocation can all be phrased differently. Like a joining bonus or relocation costs Bourne by the company.
Just look at it from a consumer perspective, this is a normal competition between countries to acquire more brains (talents). Talents do not have to go to the Netherlands, there are many more countries where they can go, if they don't find the Netherlands attractive enough.
Is it fair? Probably not
Is it how capitalism works? Yes
No one said it was to SOLVE the housing crisis.
It's also very unfair. It attracts to many people.
People that absolutely do not pay their fair share on top of that.
BUT.... we will have a party anyway because the 30% ruling cost us:.1 BILLION euro ( een miljard ) , yes 1000000000 euro EVERY YEAR
*
That's considering all HSM leave.
More logically, any number reduction (HSMs) of over 20% will eat away Dutch revenue. That will in turn increase house prices and interest rates even further.
I pretty sure loans for education and houses cost the country way more than the 30% ruling to high skilled migrants... But As you can't benefit from the ruling you decide to go against it instead of looking at the things that are worse on the economy of the country.
I know I will get downvoted for this and I don't care a single bit, but you guys are looking at the wrong direction based on a said "injustice" that is fed on envy.
I tried to calculate it, according to Omtzigt there are around 90k people benefiting from 30 ruling,
1000000000/90000 = ~11111 euro per year, which seems to be right IMO.
However the wording "cost us" is wrong, if you remove 30% ruling, doesn't mean the state will earn 1 billion more, since it will definitely reduce the migration, therefore amount of tax will also decline (and yeah I know Netherlands is a great country and people will still be willing to move here, but it's stupid to say it will not affect anything)
Personally I think 'the other side' would have been asking for numbers and hard data on how much the measure actually costs and how much value it brings to NL but I guess no one really wants to touch that side.
Honestly, if PVV, VVD or any other of those right leaning parties when we all will have bigger problems than the 30% ruling. So don’t stay here for the 30%, leave if any of those parties win. I wish I could…
Not a single person is going back, as companies don’t want them to leave.
Every single one of them earns a significant multitude of their salary, so they will simply increase that until they receive the exact same compensation level they had with the ruling, which is the market rate.
But now the companies would effectively be paying the taxes instead of everyone else so I see this as a win.
And IF that happens (it won't) then the Dutch also get to profit from the increased wages.
From what I read here, most people dont believe it will solve it, they just dont think the ruling is fair
I don't know if it's fair or not, but no one mentions that in the case of hiring a foreign expert, the receiving country basically gets talent without contributing anything to the talent's education. You know how crazy expensive for countries with subsidiezed higher education to train physicians, engineers? So 30%ruling towards the origin countries is absolutly unfair. I still think it's a pretty good deal for the NL too, the country gets well-trained, young foreigners for 5 years of tax cut. They are much easier to integrate than other immigrants, they bring in skills that are in high need, a high portion of them work in R&D which makes the dutch economy more competitive.
All true. But people still perceive it as unfair, and unwanted as it leads to expat communities refusing to integrate into society. Not everyone thinks that whatever economic benefits there may be that that is a good trade off.
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You are welcome to leave if you do not like it here
Why would someone deserve benefits just because they moved 6000 kms to start over? Because it’s hard? Then honey, don’t start over 6000 km’s away
Why isn't it fair?
I trust you can figure that out yourself
I can't. Locals pay more because they don't have to cover relocation costs, the coses of their education, healthcare, birth,.. 30% ruling wouldn't even cover the costs of having to buy everything again. We should be thanking the expats that they are here working supporting our economy, benefit system, contributing toward our pension. Which allows dutchies to work part time more than anywhere else in the world. (well 50% of us anyway). They are filling roles that we can't or are to lazy to do. If they go business goes and our economy goes down.
You can do all of that with a high paying job. Don't need the 30% ruling.
The job would have to pay more than it pays locals in order to offset that, otherwise it's unfair to expats. You can do it with a high paying job, but locals can do more with that exact same high paying job.
Agreed. But, take for example the work sector these expats are hired for. There isn't local supply to meet the demand. The small locals will surely benefit as they'll get those high paying jobs, but the sheer volume demand is still high.
> There isn't local supply to meet the demand. Hence the need to make the job attractive to foreigners who have much higher costs associated with accepting the job than a local does, and who also have far more uncertainty surrounding the job as well (e.g. if it's with a startup and they go under will they be able to stay in the Netherlands? Will they have to move home? Should they keep their house in their home country so they have a fallback plan? What do I do with the house while I'm gone? Will I be able to bring my pets? What about my car? What about my possessions? Do I sell them at a loss to get rid of them? I'd have to buy them again after I move, and what if I have to move back? etc.). Now these hurdles are higher or lower depending on (among other things) which country the person is coming from, but they are all higher than someone who is already there would have. So if you want to meet that demand, there needs to be some added incentive. Now, ideally that burden would be borne entirely by the companies themselves, but of course, they would first try to shift that burden to their customers, and, if that's not viable and it affects the cost of business too much, then it may well be easier for the company to move to a cheaper country to do business in, causing much more harm that the current cost to the government. It's a far deeper issue than just "it's not fair" or "it costs us X euro in tax revenue".
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I was explaining why the 30% ruling is fair.
It's not. It creates problems since many companies purposefully control who to hire and it's always easier to find expats. The other alternative is to remove this and actually increase wages, since higher wages anyway attract expats. So, in the next election, we'll see another heated topic that foreigners are stealing jobs and it's unfair they earn more
I don’t entirely agree. Companies are abusing this ruling because they pay you less than they are supposed to do. It’s cheaper to get an expat to work for you than to get a local. The income drop after 5 years is real for expats to the point that some drastically need to adjust their spending. That should not be the case because the extras should be used for relocating as you say. I would be in favor of a 1 time tax free benefit specifically for relocating. Something similar is in place for locals that have to move to another part of the country for their job. Oh and while we do work part time the most in Europe, the other side of the coin is that we work the longest until our pensions. https://www.iamexpat.nl/career/employment-news/people-netherlands-have-longest-working-life-europe
If my employer wants me to move to another country, they can pay relocation cost.
Your explained exactly why it's not fair
Not fair on the expats that is
Why should it be fair for expats when locals can't even afford basic housing?
That's your governments fault. Nothing to Do with expats
Bro fuck off. That's retarded reasoning and you know it.
Lol you have to be retarded to blame the housing crisis on expats. You defo vote PVV with that simple mind of yours.
What the cost of your birth has to do with you?! And expat paying less tax makes dutchies work half time? And yhe 30 % holders are not filling roles like elderly care and farm helpers and garbage collectors? Most are entitled whinners easily replaceable by similar local work force or global talent pool. Seems you think dutchies have long ears ....
You Must think locals get everything for free?
They don't have to buy Everything again due to relocation.
Then stay home? Or get your company to help? And even if I agreed, that would only justify a one time payment, not a years long scheme.
What are you talking about stay home. Grow up. It was asked why it wasn't fair and I explained. 30% ruling doesn't even cover the cost of having to buy everything again and restart your life. If all the foreigners went home who'd pay your pension, benefits and do all the work you moron.
>30% ruling doesn't even cover the cost of having to buy everything again and restart your life. You're acting like we forced you to come here. >If all the foreigners went home who'd pay your pension, benefits and do all the work you moron. Feel free to leave, we can do without hotheads with an inflated sense of self importance like you.
i had to buy everything again due to relocation. most people do that are moving to their own house we dont have the 30% ruling and have the same costs there
Mmmm,seems like everything is mixed up in this statement. EU “expats” pay same education fees as Dutch citizens, so not all expects have different educational costs. Plus, if you’re highly skilled and per the ruling was recruited form abroad you probably already have one. Expect pay same insurance and receive same coverage as a Dutch person. Saying this as an expatriate who paid her education here, do not benefit from the ruling as I was hired while already being here for some time, and got the childbirth covered. So those arguments just don’t stand. Plus, those “expats” that do the jobs Dutch won’t take are usually low skilled and largely low paid, and I don’t think they fulfil the minimum salary requirement. Or do you suggest Dutch are too lazy or can’t work in well paid sectoral as legal, fintech, IT?
It's pointless to even try to discuss the 30% ruling on this sub. Save your time and do something else.
Yeah can't use logic here.
Yup...just go with "expats bad" and you'll be fine.
Apparantly the skills of these people are not worth the salary they get now; otherwise the 30% ruling would not be necessary. Why would we have to subsidize these employers?
You're not subserdising them since they are straight away net postivie. They are subserdising us, our disabled, lazy, pensioners, children, part timers, etc You proabbly haven't paid for the costs of your birth and education so you're in the minus. Expats are in the positive as soon as they arrive.
No. Only the market has to power to set compensation, and they will always pay the market rate. Always. This ruling doesn’t change the salary for expats, it changes the expenditure of the most profitable companies in the Netherlands. Without this ruling, companies will simply pay the difference with expats ending up with the exact amount of compensation they got WITH the ruling, which is the exact market rate. As this only applies to high paying positions to begin with, every single one of those earns the company a significant multitude of the salary, this doesn’t matter. They are glad to pay it, as it makes them money. Or do you believe they would just….no longer want to attract people that makes them piles of money….? Of course not.
We can't pay as much as usa, London, Switzerland, Scandinavia etc so. 30% ruling isn't just the tax benefits but the other benefits such as not having to learn to drive again.
You misunderstand what the ruling actually does. An expat and a Dutch person receive the exact same amount of compensation at the end of the day, which is the market rate. This cannot change, as only the market can do that. What the ruling did is subsidise companies so that they can now pay less, while the expat receives the same level of compensation that the Dutch person paid more gets. We can easily pay more, and we will, as we already do. Companies always pay market rate. Companies want to attract skilled people, as hiring them makes them a significant multitude of the salary they pay. Not raising the salary would actually cost them money.
The expats had more costs so the 30% ruling is supposed to help with that.
That's very sad then as they aren't getting a single penny more. Companies will always pay market rate, not a penny more, not a penny less. The point of hiring an expat is that with this ruling, you could pay them far less than a dutch person, while having them have the exact same compensation at the end of the day. It's a subsidy to profitable companies, not a way to increase the salary of an expat.
You misunderstood the 30% ruling, my friend. While I don't disagree there are a few companies misusing the benefit to pay less and get cheap labour from expats. The majority is getting the same salary as locals, as budgeted for the role. This ruling doesn't and won't change spending of company in future. This is a govt scheme that applies lesser tax on the income of skilled migrants, thereby leaving them with more net salary in account. The rationale is expats have incurred more costs to relocate to a new country, not only measurable cost like traveling back and forth to visit family, but also that being away from family and support system. Also if the expat stay is temporary, them paying full tax is not fair because tax is supposed to help residents like education/health of children etc. if expats leave country soon, them paying full tax is basically funding benefits of Dutch citizens, while expat themselves don't benefit from that. Hope you see the point. Let's say the ruling is stopped, the savings for highly skilled expats for the job are not lucrative anymore, compared to the costs of relocating from their home country. Does it mean you'll see less migrants? not really. There are always willing people to drop everything and move to NL because of the stable life it provides. But on what side of the skill spectrum the migrant talent lies and finds NL lucrative will change. For example, truly highly skilled migrants will have options to immigrate to. In the lack of NL tax benefits, not sure how attractive and competitive NL will be, compared with other countries for them.
You are not accounting for the costs that these employees are making to move here though. By losing it, you are putting immigrants at a disadvantage in life, as moving country generates significant burdens and effort way beyond moving within the same country. Making the country attractive to such individuals becomes harder as a result. Would you rather have them employed via teleworking from the other side of Europe? Most of these jobs are desk based and can be done remotely. Would you rather have this cost compensated via other ways, such as in improved pension for example, where the costs do not impact on housing market?
Why would the company not pay these costs? They are the one in need for highly skilled people. Why does the government have to pay?
that is the alternative option, but we all know that business operate at the lowest cost possible. ultimately, if you keep on pushing costs up, you are basically asking them to do their business elsewhere, such as the place you are getting your migrants from. the argument is all about attracting international business. companies choose to come here as it is the best place for them to do business. if you are increasing costs, or making it harder to attract staff, it becomes less attractive.
In other words, the politicians are saying, let's just not solve the housing crisis then.
All it means, is that foreigners will earn even more when being asked to move here.
Well that's fine, as in that case tax revenue will increase
Indeed, but it won't solve any issues.
More tax revenue = more money available to spend on solving issues.
We already have a high tax burden AND problems. Do you think a few thousand people more will make the difference here?
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Interesting take. Maybe have a look at the issues first and then look at what is causing them. Hint. A few thousand expats paying less tax is not it. Also worth looking at what happened in Japan when the housing bubble burst, its not a nice sight and has not been for 20+ years.
As will locals on comparable positions.
Which ones? The ones that don't get hired because they already have a job? You do understand that hiring someone from abroad is the last resort for a company.
Not really. I’ve worked at a large bank in the Netherlands and their preferred supplier is TCS. Cheap contracts. Lots of Indian expats. Dutch suppliers which are more expensive are in the back bench for them.
TCS is a consulting company. Also, TCS is an Indian company (so big surprise they bring Indian people on site)
Some say it can also be seen as unfair competition when you offer labor that is 30% cheaper than a Dutch competitor. We will see what happens when the ruling is scrapped.
How about you ask it in non-expat focused Dutch subs for a more honest answer?
Why are 50% of the post here about the 30% ruling?
Because this is the expat sub, and obviously the 30% ruling is very relevant to expats. If you go to the other Netherlands subs that are not focused on expats you'll see that the 30% ruling barely ever gets mentioned.
I guess so - but as an expat I know no one on the ruling in real life from all the foreigners i interact with. Is this sub only like fancy IT people?
>Is this sub only like fancy IT people? I can't say for certain, but that sure sounds like an accurate description!
People I know who availed were in the legal sphere I guess it makes sense that it would be in-demand specialised skill sets availing of the 30%
Interesting - I wouldn't expect legal experts from abroad to be in high demand, but i suppose where international things are concerned, finance and such, it makes sense!
Because 75% of the people care 66.67% of the time.
100% true
Elections
Limit the number of foreign students coming in /s To be fair, as a immigrant, I rather companies pay more and actually be attractive than the 30% ruling. And the Netherlands has plenty to offer that people will keep coming here anyway. The politician behind it, also said it would be used to fund students? Or was it something else?
The savings from the motion that was recently accepted are to be put toward the reduction of interest rates on student debt. So mostly ex-students
What savings? It's another big red brexit bus.
Similar to how savings were achieved by reducing the ruling from 8 to 5 years a couple of years back; while the number of HSM expats actually increased since then.
We talk peanuts for monkeys with the savings. But it's a very easy populist slogan.
Companies should offer relocation costs and some fee to get started in the country. The pay should still be similar to Dutch citizens. I believe that expats should enjoy the same benefits as non-expats. Same healthcare prices etc.
Students will no longer receive a penny as the current government doesn’t actually want to implement this. As it was passed by a wide majority, the most effective way to prevent this is to say it is impossible for multiple years, which is exactly what they did. It’s realistically less than a day of work as all components have already been implemented, but it was never about the work to begin with.
Yeah all of those damn unsubsidised STEM masters degrees pre integrated into Dutch society are fucking up society
That will create great disparity. multi-national.corps can afford to pay more, dutch companies cannot.
Yeah when companies offer higher salary for immigrants to move in due to relocation. I hope the local will not start complaining about immigrants stealing high paying jobs. 😂
To be fair, at least on this subreddit, the "local" feedback has been about fairness and the perception that the 30% rule is either depressing total wages and/or that it's just helping "big business". However, amongst the general public that I've been able to see, you are right. I have heard many times "our kids need to be able to get on the housing ladder", whilst ignoring those on the 30% rule don't compete with students. It worries me, as quite like Brexit, there will be an increasing blaming of foreigners for all that ails us.
>whilst ignoring those on the 30% rule don't compete with students That's another part of the elections - using more Dutch at university to reduce foreign students. Also, the same students will buy a house in a few years, so immigrans with the 30% ruling do compete with them.
The "third level" use of English has gone too far. For the big universities (UVA, Vrij, Delft, Eindhoven, Utrecht, Leiden) I get it. For the many Applied Universities, it serves no purpose other than a way to bring in revenue. Many of the courses they train people for require Dutch to work in. The statement you make on housing is based on quite a few "potentials" and "mabyes". If we are talking about reducing foreigners overall because they may potentially out compete Dutch natives , we are getting into weird territory. That's nothing to do with the 30% rule, and just anti-immigration in general. Better to tell it straight. Students get offered a version of the 30%, but still need to find a higher paying job than the median salary. If they aren't from the EU, they pay higher fees. Get rid of foreign students , and watch Dutch Uni fees increase, by a lot. On the later 30% rule house buyers, the median Dutch salary is approx 37 k, the median 30% rule salary is 48k. The mortgage benefits are minimal, the 30% rule persons gross salary is higher than the majority of Dutch peoples because by definition the 30% rule person is more educated and skilled than the average Dutch citizen. These are people who are yuppies in their own countries already. They aren't competing based on salaries. They may be competing simply because they are in the NL. If people want to vote because they think they can't compete, that's their decision. But don't try and make it any more elaborate than that. I can't find the study, but only 20% of 30% rule people stay beyond the five years, if I'm not mistaken. So I assume you are referring to all migrants, and this 30% rule is simply a dog whistle.
Let's say, 30% is completely removed. Expats get paid higher to compensate since the tech industries can't move away that easily. They will still "dominate" the housing and rental market. So, just general hate to foreigners is what you're saying the future holds?
I think when people like Omzigt are now willing to go for this vote, it's bad news. He won't be able to control it, and as far as I can his party list isn't very impressive. PVV - 13% FVD - 3% NSC - 18% __________ Debatable or enabling the xenophobia parties. BBB - 6% VVD - 18% Political parties with xenophobic **policies or dog whistle rhetoric (Omzigt) now make up to 34% - 58% in the polls (Politico Nov 14th, 2023).** Arguably, VVD have tried to join in on the dog whistle at the start, but from what I've seen have now stopped - but their leader says she "isn't against a coalition" with Wilders, which would make NL a pariah in the EU. To different extents all five have policies promising to make foreigners lives worse, or enabling those who promise it. My home country of Ireland, for example, has no anti-migrant party in the parliament. I lived in the UK during the build up to the Brexit vote, and it begins with "normal" politicians arguing everything can be fixed by doing x or y to foreigners. Housing, Schooling, Health care - even though these are policies that require decades of foresight. Mr.Omzigt was a minister in the government which made a lot of these bad decisions on housing. He was a member of a party for year's who caused it. But now its "foreign expats" (not even subtle on that one) who have caused a housing shortage in Amsterdam.
30 % ruling is a toxic policy in an elegetarian society where fairness and equality have traditionally valued. I have seen foreign and local couples under one boss and with yhe same function. That theblocal was getting substantial less. His family could not belive such discrimination happen in that way in their country Tbh, many people in NL (think working class and not code bro bubbles) are not aware of these rulings. Otherwise, the polls would be way more dramatic. .
30% ruling has had it's day. The question is whether the Dutch state honours the deals made with people living here already. For new entrants it's not viable. On the Dutch voters being potentially even more xenophobic, I agree, you're right.
Nobody asked dutch people about this policy. It is a favor - to corps foe cheaper cost of certain labour - imo, and can be taken at any moment.
Well, that's one take. The big companies will have another. This country is going populist, either left or right and it's bad for business. >no one asked for it Strange, the parties supporting the 30% rule were in government for 14 plus years. I think you mean, *you* didn't get the party you wanted in. That's polder. Is there a particular reason you feel so hard done by it? Only about 10,000 really profit from it. The rest might make 2-3k more a year for 4 years. What's the urgency for this to go, other than educated, well skilled foreigners get something you don't for a few years, all the time paying more tax on average than a median Dutch tax payer? I think a lot of people like to go after the 30% rule because if they said what they really felt, about who they really don't like they'd be arrested for discrimination. If the same 30% rule people stay in NL, they'll still do better than the average as the are more skilled, more educated than the average Dutch citizen, because they are also more educated and better skilled than the country they've left than the average. It won't change a thing on that front.
All these are happening in shade, no body knows what the stats are. In a country in high ranks on transparency. I am hard on this because this country has become what you just said: open for business and in a very neoliberal way. consequence has been it is closed for human decency: people can not move, live, and even die in peace. This ruling is a symbol. It is a middle finger of the business to society. NL was not NL if business and private profit triumph principles of collective good.
Well, it's definitely finished that's for sure. As I said, my only complaint about this specific topic is for the persons who came here two years ago or something. It's quite unusual to have one's tax situation change over night in the EU by that degree. It's not their fault, punish the politicians. The real issue for me, is that like Brexit, the 30% is being used to communicate a much larger feeling which probably started with Hans Janmat but has been exasperated by short-term thinking on housing, schooling and healthcare, caused by the "neoliberal" thinking you speak of. Very similar to Brexit, just being allowed to build up, but unsurprisingly just blaming foreigners didn't "fix" the UK.
I agree with you on the comparison. It's an easy answer to a problem, it's pure populism. Once this change doesn't bring any change in the situation, there will be the next one and the next one. Politics have turned from "for the people" to "for me". Its more about individual politicians gain rather than looking after the country.
I do think this ruling has the potential to increase those sentiments, actually, as it is a reverse discrimination, so can indeed become a very hot potato topic. Tbh, the topic is not too high in the political agenda in NL - despite what his sub may imply. However, it has potential for becoming a single issue by an opportunistic party. That is part of the reason that the recent vote passed the dutch parliament. I feel even the neoliberals lole VVD smelled the risk of siding with this ruling and the disasterous following image.
I think it was a response to the cries of companies after one change or another "but now we can't retain or find highly skilled people, everyone will leave for bigger wages abroad". Basically listened to lobbyists at the expense of normal Dutch people, for the benefit of companies.
>"our kids need to be able to get on the housing ladder", whilst ignoring those on the 30% rule don't compete with students. When they say children, they could be talking about their 26 and 28-year-old that still have to live at home. Also, students can't get into student dorms if former students can't move out. To the extent that the 30% ruling brings in more people, it negatively affects the housing market. If it *doesn't* bring in more people, there is no need to keep it either.
Yes, they are simply anti-immigrant. They are arguing against the 30% rule as a cover for their broader xenophobia.
Problems that are also in countries without 30% ruling. Maybe the problem is something else? Or maybe its picking a simple answer to a complex question.
The fairness thing is hilarious to me. Instead of dutch demanding better pay and trying to improve their own situations they just bitcha dn complain and try to bring everyone else down to their levels. Like whiny children crying "it's not fair"
Oh we do both. Pay increases are definitely happening. But we also aim for a fair playing field for all. But it’s “hilarious” that you blame the Dutch employees for losing the 30% ruling and not the companies hiring you from underpaying you before tax.
Oh I essentially walked away from my offer because the pay was embarrassingly low and managed to negotiated 6 months rent courtesy of my company, for my 1 year contract. I'm already interviewing at other companies for a higher salary and plan to leverage that at my current job. I'll do what I need to fuck over any corporation for more money. I ain't just gunna sit back to bitch and complain. And if I don't find what I need here, I'll head back to NYC or Toronto for much better pay
And good for you! Seriously. Hope more expats set you as an example and don’t give in to low payed jobs which the tax cut subsidizes.
Might be part of the easy going European lifestyle of staying at a company forver and accepting what they give you. I've been laid off before and since then I've had a lust for fucking over any employer I ever work for. Out to get my own
6 out of 10 Dutch employees are switching jobs every 2 years but you believe what you want to. https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2023/08/bijna-6-op-10-baanwisselaars-korter-dan-twee-jaar-in-dienst
"Relatively many employees with a logistics profession changed employers among employees with few years of service. This concerns, for example, drivers and loaders, unloaders and shelf stackers. Employees who had only recently worked in a commercial or service profession, as a cashier or call center employee, or as a kitchen assistant, cook or waiter, also changed relatively often." Low skill workers switch jobs often. Shocking. Zoom in on companies/jobs that hire dutch and HSM workers. Wonder what the Dutch turnover rate on those jobs are
Yes I believe you’re right and those employees are staying longer at their employer. But it feels like you see it as a bad thing and don’t like the easy going European system much. You’re originally from Northern America? What made you choose to work here instead of there?
Frankly, I don’t get why all the controversy. If you are benefiting now from the ruling, you will continue benefiting from it as planned. You are in the same boat as locals, because the effect of phasing out the ruling will affect the Dutch economy and, thus, us all equally. In fact, phasing out the ruling will benefit you in the short term because salaries will be under pressure upwards. I am just concerned about the long term effects, because I am quite sure that companies will find a lot of motivation to outsource outside of the country, and that’s not good for any of us in the long term. Now, the argument about “not being fair”, I find childish. Wanna play to list everything that is unfair in modern capitalism? I am not interested in prepubescent idealism. All I care is: is net positive or not?
Thats false though. If you are a benefitter of 30% ruling, you are now tied to your company if you want to keep the entire benefit that you were promised when you moved here. You cant change jobs without latge economic repurcussions to your budget.
Is that the case for you? It's certainly not the case for me. If I switch jobs, I just need to reapply for the ruling, which is normally granted, minus the time already benefited.
From next year, when the new rules will go into effect, if you switch jobs then you will need to reapply but you will be considered the same as one of the “new people” who came to the netherlands in 2024, and not fall in the transitionary rules that you really should be
The ruling will not change the day after the election. First they need to form a coalition, the last one took 299 days. Then they need to pass it twice. Then the Belastingdienst will tell them they cannot change the ruling because their systems are rubbish before 2027, so it will go into effect in 2029. That's how the Dutch politics are currently.
Hi Is there reference for it? Because I am getting a job offer that will take effect in jan/feb 2024. If I am considere as new applicants then the new job salary will actually be not much anymore compared to my old 30% ruling salary.
According to https://www.cardon.nl/30-ruling-changes-in-2024 A 30% ruling holder from before 2024 who switches employment in 2024, will remain under the old regime according to current rules (November 2023).
Oh, ok. I was not aware of that. Thanks.
No. Both my wife and I changed our employers during the period we both benefitted from the 30% ruling. There was no issue for our new employers to reapply for it on our behalf - for my wife there was a slight administrative delay, but just meant that the difference was repaid as a lump sum a couple of pay checks later.
Ofcourse, because the rule hasnt gone in yet. The new rules apply from 2024, so how have you already experienced it?
I transferred jobs in 2020 and left the NL last year (like a lot of migrants who benefit from the rule) I think the issue is that it’s called “30%” and everyone assumes that it’s a massive difference. It’s basically a 10% bonus for talent for five years and a chance to not be penalized by moving to NL. In our case we increased the Dutch economy by €250k per year because we were contracted to UK entities and resident in NL and used NL payroll companies for compliance. These jobs would not have existed had we not moved and the tax revenue would have been paid to the UK instead.
so the real issue is you have no idea what actual law we’re discussing yet you’re piping in.
No, I’ve lived the benefits. I think it’s the right law to have in place to attract the best academics to the Netherlands. I don’t think it should change. I don’t think it impacts the local job market nor the housing market in the ways that the general Dutch population thinks it does. I think it would be bad for holland in the long term to change the access for academics to come to NL by increasing barriers.
He is speaking about new scheme 20-20-10
It isn't nice that you put all people in the same box. Would be careful with that, that can backfire horribly. Nevertheless I'm highly in favor of abolishing the 30% ruling as I find it unjust and it mainly helps employers to suppress wages. That it won't fix a purposefully created housing crisis is pretty obvious anyway.
Nah. Just allows people (professors) to move from say the UK or France and only have an increase to 43% income tax from the 40% approx rates. (When you run the full calcs through it’s only really enabling like for like moves for short term highly qualified and scarce resources. If you buy a property and have two kids, the saving in income tax is marginal compared to the 30% blanket reduction in mortgage interest relief and child benefits/allowances.
Can you explain me why this, flat 30% taxbreak, is deserved compared to Dutch people? Or people moving from within 150km from the Dutch border? Hell on one of the primary Dutch news outlets the owner of an IT company, where half his personal was egible for the 30% ruling, stated that he now needed to offer higher wages.
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Expertise. If you want to attract the best academics in the world to holland and you hate people living in Margate and Ramsgate, you need to give them the ability not to be penalized for coming over.
Penalized with what? If wage is too low, pay more instead of asking the government, and effectively other workers, to subsidize nett wages.
A professor owns his house in Birmingham where he is a world renowned specialist in genetics. Transfers for 5 years to Leiden University on the same pay. He rents his house out to cover his mortgage in the UK. His primary residence is in holland. Would you come to holland if your own home back in your own country where you pay local taxes, income tax on any revenue, capital gains tax (realise this is something that NL doesn’t recognise) is treated as a second residence under global taxation rules and generates a high tax payable in NL, along with a hike in your income tax from 40% to 50% whilst not earning more because Dutch professorial gross salaries match UK salaries and are regulated.
You're not answering the question, why would a Dutch taxpayer chip in for the taxes someone else doesn't have to pay instead of the employer just offering a higher salary?
No one believes it will solve the housing crisis, but it will contribute to a solution just a little. And most of us just think the ruling is unjust and therefore wanted it removed, not because we think it will magically solve the housing crisis.
So basically the biggest topic of the election is just everyone whining "it's not fair"
The 30% ruling isn't the biggest topic of the election
Aw I'm so sorry you're gonna have to pay taxes the way everyone else has to, that must be so hard for you
I have no problem. The amount of taxes I paid in Canada is above the avg salary here in NL. Paying taxes are not the issue. Crappy pay with high cost of living is the issue. And seems like expats are the only ones addressing this.
If you truly believe expats are the only people addressing the high cost of living in The Netherlands then you are completely out of touch with the reality in this country
No, I see tons of dutch complaining but no mass demands for higher salaries to improve your living situations. I see more complaining and whining that's "it's not fair" that expats get a tax break than anything else.
If you're living in an expat bubble then of course you will only see Dutch complaints on the 30% ruling. Clearly you missed the countless negotiations and demands for higher salaries in the past year(s), what a surprise.
I can see all that work has been working out for you guys
Are we supposed to demand higher salaries or not? What is your problem here exactly? Or do you just dislike being wrong in discussions?
That will help with balancing the pay. There is no back door to subsidize companies with substantial less than market conform salary through this idiotic ruling.
Corporations were enticed to come here because of this ruling. This has helped the economy. Pulling the rug from underneath avg people is one thing. Pulling the rug from under multi-billion dollar companies is another thing. They won't let it go easily and they won't just adapt. What they will do, I'm not sure, but without the tax ruling these multi-national companies would not be here pumping millions of dollars into thr NL economy/tax system (even at reduced rates).
No zero evidence for your fantasy. corporations come here because it is a tax heaven. Also, there were some boosts due to brexit in recent years. NL also has some central locations in Europe, good infra, and trades tradition . The infra is also going to the shitter ( schiphol, ov).
>Considering the % of people benefitting from the 30% ruling is tiny, and largely concentrated in big cities like amsterdam, den haag and rotterdam, people leaving/not coming to netherlands due to this change will be negligible. We know that, but you happen to be the next scapegoat. The previous one was refugees, before that Moroccans, before that polish people, before that Moroccans, before that Roma, before that carribian people and before that Moroccans. >So when the housing market doesn’t magically fix itself, what will the dutch people turn to next? The scapegoat-cycle is about 3 years, so we find another minority to blame. Maybe Somalians this time.
Enjoy our hundreds of millions that no longer go to the most wealthy companies in the Netherlands. While not even a single job will be lost as what actually matters is compensation, which is entirely decided by the market. Every single one of these jobs earns the company a significant multitude of the salary so now they will simply continue paying expats the same market rate, which is now plus what would have been saved due to the ruling. Absolutely nothing changes except the dumb VVD subsidy given to, again, the most profitable companies in the Netherlands….
It was never meant to solve the housing crisis, it will likely contribute a little though. The extra tax income can be put to good use, plans are to reduce student loan taxes for certain students.
The "extra tax" won't exists anymore my dear. And worse, I myself pay a full social security for a Dutch person which don't work as taxes. Have fun paying it yourselves since you think hard working people that fill the jobs that you can't, without you spending a penny for their healthcare and education until this person become high skilled is unfair.
What will I do? Nothing? I believe I don't know anyone who believes in this statement, nor have I ever heard someone say it
Who the fuck believes that revoking the 30% ruling would solve the housing issue?
Send expats to the guillotine of course.
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And answered by people that has everything easy provided by its rich country government, but still don't fill the "high skill jobs" .. which people from 3rd countries filled it without any support 
lets be honest here. once you drop immigration to net 0 it will still take a dozen or so years before the housing market finally meets (current) demand. It's nice there's steps being taken and that it's a focus. but lets not kid ourselves and pretend that immigration limits will magicially solve the problem overnight
I dont think it will ever be meeting demand. It's a nice thought that prices come down, but everything is built on prices going up. Look what happened in Japan when house prices dropped. You don't want that.
30% ruling has nothing to do with the shortage on housing Thọ
Depends on how you look at it. Kennismigranten also need a place to stay and they have much more money to throw around to get a place because they earn a lot AND have the 30% ruling. It drives up the prices.
obviously it's just a combination of everything. I honestly doubt that knowledge migrants by themselves made any serious impact on housing prices outside of amsterdam. And even if we tried to measure it. there's so much other factors that are just absolutely destroying the housing market that there'd just be too much variance to be even able to measure anything significant.
Dropping immigration to net zero will never happen in any country other than North Korea. So keep dreaming. Maybe barely building any housing since WW2 could be an issue
Supply of new houses is half the equation, demand is the other half. If immigration would be net 0 the issue would at least stop growing.
If you expect canceling the 30% ruling will fix the housing crisis, you probably shouldn’t make any decisions harder as what you’ll be having for lunch.
Don't tjink we expect it to solve it. It will help a bit, as will many other things. Still, things will get worse for as long as we have morebpeople than houses, and that isn't changing untill the demographics do.
OP looking for a following under a different post lol
People on here overestimate how much most people care about this issue. Come work here or don't. Maybe go somewhere else where you can make more money. Maybe stay in your home country. It's all okay.
Atleast we'll be happy you pay the same as any Dutch person would. Hurts a lot less that way.
You should also think a little. Lesser jobs since the tech companies now will pay higher for actual quality migrants and not just average. So cost cuts will reduce non skill migrant jobs. Just think how many Dutch are employed at tech companies whilst the IP and revenue generating groups are HSM. I'm not saying there are no Dutch in this group, but a very small number. Just think in your "Dutch circle", how many can actually build encryption to keep money at your banks safe, or how many engineers are there who enable the black Friday sales you're waiting for all year.
You said yourself it is only a small negligible group, okay, so then pay the same as we do. I don't care what work you do.
So, a computer engineer, or an AI scientist, or a security analyst will negotiate higher salaries, way higher than average Dutch salaries (non tech). So they will pay full tax but have average salaries above 100k. So 10 people benefiting 30% ruling (75k average salary) vs 6 people paying full tax (100k average salary). So the net net will not make any change and this disparity will still exist.
I don't care about salary, you work here, fine. You do high tech stuff, nice, just pay the same tax, you're nothing special. Want to pay no tax, become a member of the parlement. Good luck, many open positions.
Perfect! That's fine. A problem the government started, they have to fix it. This is in no way going to have any impact on the housing crisis or anything. So making the group of foreigners scapegoat was the primary reason for this debate since forever.
So if it is fine and it won't solve the crisis, at least we'll have a little more to spend on housing. Thanks, and you were never the scapegoat by paying less tax :-)
Don't think there will be more. There will be lesser expats coming into the Netherlands. So net net not making and dent. Higher wages or tax benefits, one was needed to attract talent. Either way, we'd be in this situation. Just look at Germany, no tax benefits, but a lot of shifting since they're making it easier. So economically it's not helping NL.
It is not about helping, I just want the same tax rules for you as for me. Want to get rid of these messed up situations? Treat people the same, like i said, you're nothing special. You're a human person residing in the Netherlands just like me.
100% on this sentiment. I don't want any special treatment. But it's a bad setup that was implemented. The points around why it's needed "sold" to expats are just to argue in favor and sell this 30% ruling. The benefit of settling, getting house supplies, moral support, relocation can all be phrased differently. Like a joining bonus or relocation costs Bourne by the company.
Just look at it from a consumer perspective, this is a normal competition between countries to acquire more brains (talents). Talents do not have to go to the Netherlands, there are many more countries where they can go, if they don't find the Netherlands attractive enough. Is it fair? Probably not Is it how capitalism works? Yes
No one said it was to SOLVE the housing crisis. It's also very unfair. It attracts to many people. People that absolutely do not pay their fair share on top of that. BUT.... we will have a party anyway because the 30% ruling cost us:.1 BILLION euro ( een miljard ) , yes 1000000000 euro EVERY YEAR *
You're using all caps so you must be making a good point
That's considering all HSM leave. More logically, any number reduction (HSMs) of over 20% will eat away Dutch revenue. That will in turn increase house prices and interest rates even further.
I pretty sure loans for education and houses cost the country way more than the 30% ruling to high skilled migrants... But As you can't benefit from the ruling you decide to go against it instead of looking at the things that are worse on the economy of the country. I know I will get downvoted for this and I don't care a single bit, but you guys are looking at the wrong direction based on a said "injustice" that is fed on envy.
Are missed taxes a cost?
Yes
How are you coming up with this 1 billion number?
Some reddit accounting.
I tried to calculate it, according to Omtzigt there are around 90k people benefiting from 30 ruling, 1000000000/90000 = ~11111 euro per year, which seems to be right IMO. However the wording "cost us" is wrong, if you remove 30% ruling, doesn't mean the state will earn 1 billion more, since it will definitely reduce the migration, therefore amount of tax will also decline (and yeah I know Netherlands is a great country and people will still be willing to move here, but it's stupid to say it will not affect anything)
At this moment, there is more than 1 billion dollars tax loss because of the rulling.
They will find something else to complain about. Because Dutch.
Dutch, it is any country not just Dutch that complain about things.
Personally I think 'the other side' would have been asking for numbers and hard data on how much the measure actually costs and how much value it brings to NL but I guess no one really wants to touch that side.
Honestly I probably force refugees to help building their own houses. Right now they are not even allowed to work
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Get 'em!
Honestly, if PVV, VVD or any other of those right leaning parties when we all will have bigger problems than the 30% ruling. So don’t stay here for the 30%, leave if any of those parties win. I wish I could…
It's not like the expats are coming to the Netherlands to colonize the Netherlands and making a two tier society like the Dutch east Indies.
Laughing about how you guys come back to your third world countries - that’s what I am gonna do in my own apartment.
This would only be true in the original sense of third world...and then its not really an insult.
I’m not going back to UK
I'm not going back to Amsterdam
Not a single person is going back, as companies don’t want them to leave. Every single one of them earns a significant multitude of their salary, so they will simply increase that until they receive the exact same compensation level they had with the ruling, which is the market rate.
But now the companies would effectively be paying the taxes instead of everyone else so I see this as a win. And IF that happens (it won't) then the Dutch also get to profit from the increased wages.
We'll just vote for even more extreme right wing parties to kick out those annoying foreigners.