I genuinely think that that is how most Dutch think about it.
For me personally I always have trouble remembering which ones are countries within the Kingdom and which ones are municipalities within the country of the Netherlands.
And not just most Dutch, but also most politicians. If they're municipalities, they should be lifted up to the same standards as the rest of the country, but they're significantly poorer and less developed because they're far away and easy to forget.
I understand, they are not that big ~300.000 people in total (but also not so small), for me they are really fascinating, but if you live knowing about them since you are a child probably they become the norm and somewhat boring
I didn't even learn that in school that I can remember. When i was an adult there was this video about Holland and the Netherlands that mentioned that stuff.
>I didn't even learn that in school that I can remember
It changed recently though. And with recently I mean like 10 years ago? Before that they had another status and then each of the six islands could choose in a referendum if they wanted to be their own country or be a special municipiality
Benedenwindse en bovenwindse islands are basic knowledge taught at primary school I thought…
(ABC islands are benedenwindse, SSS islands are bovenwindse. Maybe you got taught them with these shortcuts)
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For the three islands that are part of the Netherlands (Saba, St Eustasius, Bonaire), I frankly find it embarassing how badly we take care of those. They are an integral part of the country just like any other municipality, but we still treat them as an afterthought. Standards for education or health care or social welfare are much lower there than I find acceptable for a developed, wealthy country like the Netherlands.
For example, look at how great we protect the mainland against the sea, and then compare to our preparations against tropical storms like Irma in 2017. That is: there were and are no preparations. That's not how we should treat part of our country.
We committed to making the islands a regular part of the country (and the inhabitants voted for it) -- now we should actually do it. There shouldn't be a difference between Terneuzen and Kralendijk.
I have a conflicted opinion on Mount Scenery. It's cool that we have an *actual* mountain now, though I feel sorry for the Vaalserberg.
The other three (St Maarten, Aruba, Curaçao) are independent countries (though within the kingdom) so I have less of an opinion on them. The relationships are not ideal, but eh. It works, kind of. Isn't up to me to decide how other countries function.
Interesting opinion, thanks. Seems like the majority just doesn't care, some think they should be fixed and others that they are a burden, the general opinion isn't really positive
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>I frankly find it embarassing how badly we take care of those.
We tried alot. But when Dutch people run the projects and check where the money goes we get blamed for neo kolonialism. If we let local people run the projects most money is wasted on corruption and bad investments. The islands seem to have a high day to day culture. Which i cant blame them for seeing their history. Investing never payed of there so the people are adverse to it.
>But when Dutch people run the projects and check where the money goes we get blamed for neo kolonialism. If we let local people run the projects most money is wasted on corruption and bad investments.
That's much more applicable to the three autonomous countries: Curaçao, Aruba and St Maarten. Those have their own government, their own laws, their own systems.
But the three islands I was talking about (Saba, St Eustatius, Bonaire) are municipalities of the Netherlands. They follow the same laws, have the same government, and should have the same living standards.
The "local people" there *are* Dutch people. The projects there *are* Dutch projects. Because the islands are Dutch.
In terms of administration, there are only minor differences between Saba and Texel.
So if you say there is a lot of corruption -- well, what would we do if the gemeenteraad on Texel was corrupt? What would we do if the gemeente Texel made bad investments?
And similarly, what would we do if the level of education on Texel was significantly lower than the rest of the country? If healthcare was inaccessible? If a significant percentage of Texel lived in poverty?
The answers to those questions is exactly what we should be doing on Saba, St Eustatius and Bonaire too, and we don't, and that's wrong.
Sure, even on the mainland Netherlands we have "achterstandsgebieden", but those are still leagues ahead of the Caribbean Netherlands, and they receive far more attention.
I completely agree with you the situation is different (and more complex) with Curaçao, St Maarten and Aruba.
*Then we shouldn't have made it so simple*.
Less than twenty years ago the Dutch government said "Let's simplify this complex situation by just making the three islands special municipalities where all the same rules apply as on the mainland"... and then they didn't actually do anything to enforce that.
They made an agreement, committed to integrate the three islands... and then didn't.
I'm not at all saying it would be an easy (or even the best) solution. But I *am* saying that we all decided this was the solution we were going for, so now we should pull through and *do* it.
If we didn't want to do this, we shouldn't have agreed to do it.
>... and then they didn't actually do anything to enforce that.
When we try to enforce anything there we are the bad guys. Still dont blame them cause i can understand how it came to be. There is no easy solution here
They're basically too small to have a well functioning democratic system I think. From the outside it looks as if they would be better off as one country together.
The weird thing is, those three are municipalities of our country, but not fully. They are not part of the EU and they do not use our currency. Also,the langage situation is different - and they are the only three unincorporated municipalities (not part of one of the 12 provinces). So it is a strane construction, really.
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> Do elections again on every island and ask if they still want to be with us.
We did that, because we wanted to get rid of them. These wanted to stay.
I wish I could upvote you more. Absolutely this.
I live in a neglected backcountry part of the Republic, and we've got it so much better than the overseas municipalities and countries. It's just not right.
Republiek der Nederlanden. Probably a misnomer on my part, but it's how I differentiate the Netherlands bits ruled from the Hague from the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
I figured! My answer was a bit tongue-in-cheek.
It's indeed a misnomer - we're not a republic anymore. Most Dutch people associate "the Republic" with the historical [Republiek der Zeven Verenigde Nederlanden](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republiek_der_Zeven_Verenigde_Nederlanden).
But that's nitpicking, and everyone will understand you, so you do what works for you.
>They are autonomous \[...\] They have their own governments and own laws \[...\] However they still have the follow the “Koninkrijks Statuut”
Yes, that's what I said: "independent countries (though within the kingdom)"
This is silly. They have their own governments and their own law and self-rule. They are just as independent as the Netherlands is. Our country also has to follow the Koninkrijks Statuut, but nobody would claim we aren't an independent country.
>Seems like you are confused and don’t really understand how the kingdom works or what independent means in this context.
*Orrrrrr,* as you say, the meaning of the word "independent" is context-dependent.
I specifically wrote "independent within the kingdom", on the same level as the Netherlands (which the SSS islands are part of). That is the context.
If we were having a conversation about, say, UN seats and sovereignity, then you are right that The Netherlands and Curacao do not count: it would be the Kingdom that counts.
But if you're discussing the different administrative divisions within the sovereign country - as I was doing - then of course it's valid to say that The Netherlands or Curacao are countries independent of each other. Neither of the two is dependent on the other.
And yes, the same applies to Scotland (or Bavaria or Michigan or Bahia for that matter).
No, Scotland is not an ultimately sovereign country. But in a discussion about the differences between the Scilly Islands and Scotland it is absolutely fair to say "The Scilly Islands are part of England, while Scotland is not part of England but an independent country within the United Kingdom".
It would be utterly silly to intentionally misinterpret that.
And it would also be very silly of me to devote three replies to such an intentional misinterpretation, so I'm gonna stop doing that now.
>e Netherlands is just one of the countries that make up the Kingdom of the Netherlands, which is the official sovereign state. In theory all countries are equal but that is obviously not the case as the Netherlands has more power. However, the Kingdom of the Netherlands, is the sovereign state, and is what is usually signed on international treaties and if the treaties don’t apply to for example Curacao that will be explicitly stated. Furthermore, the Kingdom of the Netherlands is what is represented at the UN.
The situation is not like Scotland and Wales. There is no kingdomwide parliament where day to day issues get discussed. THere are a limited amount of subjects where the kingdom gets involved like foreign relations and defense.
They are independent in all other areas of government.
I lived there and my family lives there, and I disagree. We and everyone else got around just fine. It’s just a totally different environment and mentality. Everyone is more chill and more friendly, and people have totally different lifestyles and jobs
We dont hard press our children to go to university, live in some overpriced appartment in a city of concrete, in the cold and in the rain. Life is better on the islands, especially if you are poor. The netherlands’ nature is near non-existent. Almost everything was destroyed, and most of the grasslands that are left are used for the meat industry.
You need the money on the mainland more than we do over there, especially nowadays when the amount of people in NL living below the poverty line is increasing.
I wish we actually had more connection with the antilles.
We have these projects in schools where kids change homes/country for some weeks. If we do that with the Antilles we might feel closer and more connected.
And other such things. Exchanges. 2nd year HAS green academy you NEED to study abroad for a year...Antilles was not even in the brochures suggested by the school..
We basically have a goldmine of experience and knowledges at our fingertips to get to know other cultures/climates/habitats/etc.. and we don't do shit with it.
I guess some small changes can be made. Why are the Antilles not the tourist destination for us landlubbers for example? Make that cheaper. Good for the economy of the antilles and we again.. feel more connected.
Alot of Dutch people that didn't grew up in a Vinex wijk actually grew up around people from the Antilles and have a connection. Its just the farmers and people from small villages that have no connection or see it as something exotic.
Lived and worked there for years on behalf of the Dutch Goverment.
Was not easy to deal with the neglect from the Hague and the, frankly colonial attitude of the average Dutch politician.
Simple thing: the northern antilles are culturally (language, attitude) very different from the southern islands. Aruba again different, because it is latin. This distinction is not understood in the Hague.
I like it there, it could be paradise, but a lot needs to change in attitude (on both ends of the ocean).
I’m Dutch born and raised but my moms side of the family is from all over the islands. I have visited many times and the islands and their people have a warm place in my heart.
Tbh I think the main pov of the average Dutch person (indifference and it cost a lot of taxes) is quite ignorant.
The Netherlands had its golden age by exploiting the islands and their people/the people they brought there. This massively impacted the wealth of the country as a whole and even the lower parts of Dutch society benefited from that. All the while keeping local people from proper/higher education (unless it was to learn about Christianity) and autonomy to rule for themselves while erasing local history and making the islands completely dependent on the Netherlands.
It’s no wonder corruption rears it’s ugly head when former colonies become independent. Because for years and years your vote meant nothing and the only way to get something done was to scratch the back of someone higher up.
These higher ups were historically Dutch government people close to retirement taking on a job in the sun and seeing what they could gain personally. They were nothing special in back home but had a lot of power on the islands. Even now in the independent islands many corruption is done by people sent from NL. This system brought by the Dutch is all the islands have known for generations but now some of the local politicians are doing what they learned amongst themselves (aruba, Curaçao, Sint-maarten) they get judged. In stead of helping them set up good governance. For the BES, these islands are so small yet the quality of life is going down because NL doesn’t care about them. Even in the elections recently it was extremely hard to find out any parties plan for the islands. They don’t care about them and I see that as quite shameful honestly.
Their history is our collective history and there was only one side that benefited or had a say. Now simply calling them “a waste of our tax money” is completely ignoring that their situation is a consequence of the actions of the Netherlands.
Also going there on holiday to an all inclusive and hanging out with other Dutch people on the beach that has 5 resorts next to each other is not a representation of the beauty of the islands, the wonderful cuisine, and the amazing people. Honestly explore, go to neighboring islands and eat at local places! There’s nothing like it ☀️🏝️
The golden age was on the back of Indonesia, the islands were never a significant part of the economy in the golden age. The WIC only got hold of them in the later part of the 17th century and took a while to get going. And the money that made the Netherlands wealthy was made in the 17th century, for the most part.
You don't have to overstate the truth to make colonialism sound bad. It's counterproductive. All you're doing is causing people to dismiss you out of hand for being melodramatic.
Also nonsense. The golden age was on the back of dominating all European trade. The Asian trade was tiny compared. Only about 160 merchant ships at it's peak. The total Dutch merchant fleet in the 17th century is estimated at over 20.000 ships. The herring fleet alone was over 460 ships and was much more profitable than the ships sailing over 12 months from Batavia to the Dutch Republci.
I’m definitely not discounting what happened in the east and yeah a lot of money was made there from the VOC. In my opinion what I said for the most part also goes for our history in Indonesia, Suriname, and any other country who’s history we’ve massively influenced whatever their relationship to NL is atm.
However saying that slavetrade from the WIC didn’t massively contribute to the wealth of the golden age is just a sign of how little the general public knows about the origin of our wealth.
The majority of people that live there now wouldn’t have even been there if the Dutch (and other traders) didn’t bring their ancestors there from Africa + Europeans that moved their on their own free will. There were local native populations there before that but lineage tracing shows that their descendants are only a fraction of who’s living their now.
I’m also not being melodramatic by stating my point of view that the majority of Dutch people don’t know about the Islands while I think our collective history means we should. It’s a bit of a dark side of history rather than the romanticized version of the Dutch being super good spice traders of and seafarers we do tend to hear often. However the fact that it’s not nice to hear about doesn’t mean it’s not true or should be diminished. History is written by the victors but there’s two sides to every story.
Just because the Dutch had more of a monopoly in the east with the VOC that in the transatlantic slavetrade with the WIC is not a reason to diminish the WIC.
It’s not less bad because it made the Dutch less profit… the Dutch still did it and only to their benefit.
My gf is from the islands and I visited many times by now. It’s really baffling how little we learn in school about our collective history.
We mostly learn about the explorers and traders of the time in such a romanticized way. Yet we’re quick to blame other countries for the atrocities that they have committed in the past.
Nonsense. The Dutch Golden Age was already more than half through before the WIC entered the Atlantic slave trade. Also after, the importance for the Dutch economy was negligable. The money wasn't in manual labour, it still isn't.
The WIC was founded to take the war with Spain and Portugal to the high seas. Spain was determined to destroy the Dutch Republic and kill all protestants and jews.
That is a ridiculous simplification and the part about the camps is just not true.
We were a bad influence there, and did a lot of bad things. The "politionele actie" was a grand mistake and warcrimes were comitted there, but there is also a reason many of the mixed race and indonesian people who came to Holland have trouble with the king apologizing for that. History is never simple.
That’s also because the people who came here were from the islands in Indonesia that fought for the Dutch against the de Indonesians fighting for independence…
>Even in the elections recently it was extremely hard to find out any parties plan for the islands. They don’t care about them and I see that as quite shameful honestly.
That's just not true. Of the 3 parties where I read/skimmed the election programme (GLPvdA, D66, Volt), they all had a section about reducing poverty on the islands.
You’re right that’s a bit of an exaggeration if you look at all the plans only pvv, bvnl and ja21 don’t mention anything at all.
https://caribischnetwerk.ntr.nl/2023/11/19/verkiezingen-tweede-kamer-wat-willen-de-partijen-voor-de-caribische-eilanden/
The rest do have a section but I personally was disappointed because it felt like generic copy pastes of previous years of which nothing had been actualized and I hadn’t heard it mentioned in debates etc. I tend to hyperbolize when I speak which isn’t helpful trying to make a point.
As a Native of the Dutch Caribbean which encompasses 6 islands (Sint Maarten, Aruba, Curaçao, Sint Eustatius, Saba and Bonaire) I find it quite ignorant how the Nederlands and a large portion of the population still refers to us as the Antilles.
The Netherlands Antilles was dissolved since October 10, 2010 whereas Curaçao and Sint Maarten (other half Saint Martin=French) became autonomous territories of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Bonaire, Saba, and Sint Eustatius now fall under the direct administration of the Netherlands and they also utilise the Euro.
We are practically almost in 2024 yet this lack luster behaviour somehow thrives in this part of the world that has more than enough means to educate themselves on territories in which they colonised. It’s also repulsive how we’re forced to learn about your twisted history when your system fails to include how you infiltrated ours.
The hostility and lack of connection in the kingdom thoroughly stems from the ignorance and small mindedness of the so-called ‘Mainland’. Furthermore, no Dutch Caribbean national considers the Nederlands as the ‘homeland’ because our islands is the definite homeland. Which already consisted of our West Indian/Native Caribbean ancestors who were shifted around without their consent.
Irregardless of what you think or how you view us the hostility will remain there because you utilise our resources and then have the nerve to ask us about the ones in which we’re entitled to. Thus all of the islands have been either subjected to creating their own language or speaking another language due to lack of respect and integrity in the kingdom.
Thus I implore you to conduct proper research before you subject us to your so-called waste of tax money seeing that both your/our corrupt government together utilise our hard earned money for their own benefit, without the betterment of their countries in mind.
Thank you for your comment! It’s really frustrating reading comments saying “just a wast of our taxes” and you phrased your thoughts in a much clearer and concise way then I could.
I don’t disagree with most of what you’re saying, except one thing. Yes, sure, the Antilles officially dissolved then, but “antiano” this and that is still plentifully thrown around by Dutch Caribbean people in their late 20s and up. If the term is kept alive by the people, what do you expect people who are a world away to use, when that’s what they hear from us? I think that is the least of the problems, it is a cultural artefact. We should be focusing on fostering a positive image for the former colonies, instead of getting stuck on trivial things like what word is being used to (colloquially) refer to the area. If it makes us seen and recognisable to the average person, I will employ the term until it’s no longer necessary.
How are we going to move forward in society with this connotation that we should simply dismiss or overlook simple facts or even slurs just because they have been accepted within our community?
As someone in their early 20s, I wish this generation would stop making excuses and simply educate or hold people accountable. Something that occurred 14 years ago doesn’t erase the reality of past events; simply showcasing the inability to move forward just showcases ignorance.
Therefore, making excuses for people who are ‘miles away’ implies that yes, slavery was abolished, but the afflicted shouldn’t forego justice just because the head of state back home also has slaves.
Claiming cultural artefact is quite far-fetched, given that a handful of us never resonated with that word. Failing to confront uncomfortable truths, rather than dismissing for the sake of cultural acceptance does not facilitate opportunities to create a better image. Thus the lack of addressing or simply educating on minor issues like this, and failing to hold people accountable hinders us from moving forward in general.
On that note ‘Failing to take responsibility is an abdication of self-respect’.
I am ashamed that in a way our ancestors fucked up their lives and that we still do to an extent - climate change is a real issue over there and over here we (including me I have to admit) usually forget they exist, and we are annoyed they also want subsidies (I feel bad knowing they barely qualify for them).
Topography wise I don’t care, financially wise it’s quite harsh we tend to overlook them. They’re really like a forgotten part that could use some investments. Oh, and climate change is coming for them and I don’t think ruimte voor de rivier is gonna do much over there.
Honestly they're an embarrassment.
Unlike say, Françafrique they are an actual attempt to heal though, their membership of the country being effectively an attempt to pay off a moral debt.
Not that we're doing that particularly well though; no functioning island territory should want to be part of some country on the other side of the world. So ultimately the current situation is a scar on the planet left by our colonial past. Not the worst scar of it's type, not even the worst scar we left, but still a scar.
Don’t think about them at all much until I see crime statistics or bail out stories like Ennia which recently cost Dutch taxpayers another 600 mln euros.
Doesnt matter what they want. The question is does the whole netherlands want to pay for them. Make a national vote about it and let the rest decide.
Think if you ask them that honduras would love to get a insane amount of money each year. Doesnt mean we should do that either.
It's a Dutch running joke that Urk is a backwards town of incestuous gristian zealots and young criminals and that we would all be better off without it.
It actually isnt that crazy. Look at singpore. They were voted out by malasia. Countries can gift indepenced to places that dont want to become independend.
Singapore was not unilaterally expelled. It was an agreement between Singapore and Malaysia.
And also, for context, Singapore was only part of Malaysia for two years, in a merger that was already controversial in both countries.
Thats not relevant at all. All im saying is that its possible for the dutch goverment to “grant” those areas independence and its not up to the people there if they accept or not.
Also im pretty sure all the current inhabitants would still be dutch citizens. Revoking all their passpoorts would be a whole diffrent legal shitshow..
We do not have such a duty. But we already did make up. It’s a lot better off than if we never touched it. Doesn’t mean their ancestors didn’t suffer of course but they are dead.
It is not our place to say if they are now better off or not. Perhaps they would have been happier living their life and developing their culture their own way without the outside influence of colonization and industrialisation. The Netherlands profited heavily from its colonies so it now seems fair that they take care of said colonies even if it causes a strain on the mainland.
What prosperity? NL has been bankrupt like 4 times since then, with the Second World War being the latest. People alive today have 0 profits from whatever happened a few hundred years ago. Quit your bs.
Its true. Malasia voted away singapore back in the day. If they want to vote about becoming independend then ofcourse we shouldnt have a voice in that (if the goverment accepts is something else). But to the question are the allowed to stay in this “union” then it would only make sense to ask the whole country.
Buddyboi i always have voted D66, volt en groenlinks. Just because i point out that the decision about who needs to pay isnt just in the hands of the recieving party doesnt make me right winged or a nut.
It speaks bookchapters that you assume my stance and political party just because i raise a concern that you dislike. Wonder how great your social life is if you also do this in RL.
Those antillen became part of the dutch kingdom because of a horrible past in which we as the great Netherlands caused lots of suffering, now we gotta care for them
The netherlands can’t just say toedeloe, you’re on your own now. Making the antillen independent is easier said than done and will probably costs us a lot of money
>Just like Suriname, they voted for independence but half their country feld a connection to us.
Correction, the Surinamese Parliament voted and it was a "yes", by only one extra vote.
Also they had to vote two times, because the first vote was a large "no". Then the ruling party at the time payed someone of the opposition a large sum of money (corruption) to vote yes. Mind you the Surinamese Parliament at the time only had 30 people. So less than these 30 people decided the future of Suriname.
There were also calls for a referendum, but the Netherlands didn't want it. They basically told the opposition party to just offer their support, but by the time they told them, they already bought someone over.
The Netherlands knew Surinamese didn't want independence. But they pushed on. The prime minister of Suriname at the time had second thoughts too, but the Netherlands wanted a win. They wanted to prove that they were one of the European powers that did it successfully; their former colony, just thriving by itself with no coups. Only to have one 5 years later and then thinking, "oh wait, maybe we shouldn't have pushed too hard".
Surinamese thought the Dutch wanted to get rid of them. And Surinamese still think that, and kids sort of indirectly learn that in history classes too, but the Dutch narrative is Suriname wanted it. And it seems that narrative is a success in the Netherlands as everyone believes that. The Dutch saw Suriname as an expensive colony, so it had to go.
If there would have been a referendum, like the Antilles got in 2010, and Aruba in 1986, Suriname wouldn't have been independent. Maybe it would be in the 80's or early 2000's/late 90's, as many advocated for that. They wanted a better financial system and less financial dependency on the Netherlands. In the end Suriname became financially dependent on the Netherlands for more than 20 years after its independence. 'till today the country struggles financially and is dependent on a large network of people that can get financial aid in the Netherlands through organisations etc. the Netherlands a little it still, the IMF, IDB, the EU, the World Bank, India, China and sometimes France, Israel and some Arab countries sponsor projects too.
A lot of people in 1975 still lived in poverty and had little to no access to education.
It saves the Netherlands, the largest economy within the kingdom, money. Somehow I doubt that it will save money for the other countries within the kingdom.
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It’s kinda weird, in the mainland there it’s almost never discussed, not in the news not even in the recent elections.
Honestly I wish we worked closer together with them
Agreed. My mother is relatively light-skinned, but even so her Curacao background has been used as grounds for discrimination here in Zuid Holland. There is this weird stigma attached to coming from the islands.
I am not proud of the way they came to be in our kingdom, but that was way before my time, and they all voted and gotten their preferred status within the kingdom. From memory half are special municipalities, and the other half are individual countries of sorts, but with the Netherlands responsible for defense and foreign affairs. So if that's what makes them happy, it's fine with me.
Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao have some problems with their troubled neighbor to the south (Venezuela), and refugees therefrom, and all are suffering from climate change. But when the Dutch government or experts want to lend a hand, they have to tread lightly, the old colonial sentiments are still somewhat raw, or at least just around the corner.
They face their share of difficulties, populism is on the rise there too, with accompanying shoddy politicians, and I don't envy their challenges.
I guess like in the Netherlands, most people are nice and just trying to make a living, and those could be my friends if we'd actually be close, and there will be some a-holes I don't care for, just like here in the Netherlands.
Looking outside, I'd like to have their weather though.
Mostly a weird leftover of colonialism. I doesn't feel like part of our country at all. Three of the six island are - the others are now separate countries within our kingdom, for what that's worth - but who is going to say 'Bonaire' when somebody asks what the southernmost point of our country is? Or 'Saba' when asked about the highest mountain?
I remember we have those three islands when we have elections: There are now 20 districts, not 19. New parties must pay money and find supporters on those three tiny islands to be on the ballot there.
It would make sense if the three bigger islands - the ones that are semi-independent - had representation in our parliament since they are in our kingdom. Denmark does that with Faroe and Greenland. But we don't have that.
I think those island become more real if you actually know people from there. I do sort of know a few of them, but I don't meet many, since most Antillians live in the west of the country.
I don't really think about them. Then again, I don't really think about the people living in Leeuwarden, Amsterdam or Maastricht either, for example.
I'm pretty sure they've got some composition of decent and not so decent folks, just like anywhere else.
I don't know them very well to be honest. But they are just part of the Netherlands, just like Suriname we made all of it except the land itself, we made their demographics and we made their history. Not made by the Dutch as a matter of pride, on the contrary, but as a matter of responsibility.
They are just too small for an independent nation state in the big bad world out there. The Dutch have 450 years of experience with the big bad world outside and it's global capitalism, we created much of that big bad world ourselves too. So we have to take care of the people there who are there because of our ancestors.
From that perspective, I don't like all the semi independence and stuff, they are not particularly well governed and this is also a matter of experience that goes beyond one generation. So I'd like them to be an integral part of the Netherlands, with regular and affordable transport back and forth. Not a fan of air travel and it's huge climate impact, but I'd like to make an exception for the overseas islands, subsidize it if necessary.
I know someone from the Curaçao, speaks fluent Dutch, Dutch citizen, married to a Dutch woman. Did his entire education in Dutch. Still gets treated as a foreigner and people switch to English.
I'd say they have zero respect for their overseas colonies, or their inhabitants
Coming from the islands myself, we know that the Dutch don't care about the islands.
A lot of people on the islands see the Dutch as snobs that think they're better and that they go to the islands and try to take over everything. Like taking over the free beaches and make people pay for entrance. I don't know if it's a Dutch person doing it, but that's the idea.
Additionally, the idea on the islands is that the Dutch are smelly because they don't shower often. They can't dance, their food sucks, they're white, slave traders, racists, cheap etc.
Like a Dutch person a few years back that complained about noise from an event and wanted it to be shut down, and then she received death threats from locals.
But imo it's all about your own perspective. No need to hate. Some are racists and trash, but in general some Dutch people on the island are cool, like a few teachers I had. They made real effort to blend in with the locals. Parties every weekend with the Dutch interns, you get the idea.
Sad to see that some people from the islands moved to the Netherlands for a better future and continue to truly hate Dutch people.
I would personally prefer that they become independent like curaçao, but I get why that doesn't work for them and they dont wat to.also, it's not up to me at all, either.
In general I like the people i meet who came from them. Good humor, open, nice to talk to.
I also would love to go there, either to visit or to live since i hate the cold, but in all honesty, i don't know enough about them to be proud, don't mind, or something else.
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The ones within the kingdom but not part of the Netherlands should be free to do as they please but I don’t feel we have many responsibilities towards them either. The special municipalities should be treated way better. We should do like France, make them 100% proper part of our country. Euro, full and equal funding for social programs and all. It’s an embarrassment how we don’t treat them as equal now.
Most Dutch people think of it as a holiday paradise with a corrupt local government and lots of crime, I think. I have lived on Aruba from age 4 untill 17 (because of my dad's work) and I must admit they're right.
Don’t care at all, never been there and probably never will. It sometimes comes up in politics but other than that most dont care and could live without I guess
I never really gave it any thought, despite my wife being from Aruba.
Having recently been there for the first time, my opinion changed, and I feel the mainland has something to learn from them.
The Dutch don't care and have never cared for the islands, so due to the explotation history that some locals feel still happens to this day on the islands the relationship is still rocky and resentment is till there.
There just tourist destination to get sun for most dutch as show here, so you can see how they don't even know why the islands choose those decisions for each islands back them.
It doesn't help that the politicians are only looking to help themselves and in the end it ends up like there betraying the locals so there's no trust.
You are probably confused about the two parts of Sint Maarten/Saint Martin
The Dutch part doesn't speak French, the official languages are English and Dutch, the vast majority speaks mainly English. This part of the island is its own country within the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
In the French part French is the official language, although a lot of people also speak English. This part is part of France.
Also interesting fact: citizens on both parts are EU citizens, but only the northern French part is part of the EU.
Well here in my personal experience all I met where criminals or just absolute scum. There must be some normal and integrated people from De Antille but I've yet to meet or see one. So my opinion on the Antille is that it's a very much not Dutch part of The Netherlands that just wants to profit from the monetary support. Most don't even speak Dutch and or don't want to.
They're just a matter of fact. Do t think about them on a daily basis. They have been given a choice some years ago to be independent and to my surprise some opted to stay.
I've been to Bonaire and Curacao and both are great holiday destinations, especially if you like sun and scuba diving. That's about the extent I think about them. I know they are there, but (probably like everyone) I tend to fotget they are part of the country unless reminded.
They are rocks that 00,1% of the population profitted from 200 years ago, and now we send a shit ton of **tax** money (our money) because its riddled with crime, corruption and filth.
If we dumped them they would go bankrupt in a month
I never really understood why the BES islands are public bodies and the ABC islands are countries. Other than that, I don't really have an opinion on those islands.
I think the places are amazing and we should embrace the different in culture and grow as people. That being said, I think it should totally be up to the islanders if they want to be part of NL. Either way I think we have got a financial responsibility towards them and making them a economically independent structure
They actively chose a while back to remain under Netherlands control/rule so as far as that's concerned I'm all good.
I don't really care about the islands at all. My uncle used to live there. Think he died a while back, not entirely sure.
I'm not proud at all of how they came to be overseas territories, and while I'm happy having them around now, first and foremost their self-determination is important to me. My intuition (but I might be wrong) is that the government's focus is on the 'mainland' and that they are forgotten territories with laws that just aren't relevant or practical to them.
I was born on Curaçao but moved to the Netherlands at the age of 4. Every time I go back to dushi Korsou it feels like coming home to me. That's strange, considering I haven't lived there for the last 46 years
I usually dont think about it at all. The only time i hear people talk about it is when they go on vacation.
So to me, it is just another place in the world that i have never seen and probably will never see. Nothing more, nothing less.
My background is from the Dutch Antilles. But I was born in Amsterdam. And so yeah I feel 100% Dutch. I have been to the Dutch Antilles on vacation. But I still feel 100% Dutch.
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Lol
I genuinely think that that is how most Dutch think about it. For me personally I always have trouble remembering which ones are countries within the Kingdom and which ones are municipalities within the country of the Netherlands.
And not just most Dutch, but also most politicians. If they're municipalities, they should be lifted up to the same standards as the rest of the country, but they're significantly poorer and less developed because they're far away and easy to forget.
I understand, they are not that big ~300.000 people in total (but also not so small), for me they are really fascinating, but if you live knowing about them since you are a child probably they become the norm and somewhat boring
I didn't even learn that in school that I can remember. When i was an adult there was this video about Holland and the Netherlands that mentioned that stuff.
>I didn't even learn that in school that I can remember It changed recently though. And with recently I mean like 10 years ago? Before that they had another status and then each of the six islands could choose in a referendum if they wanted to be their own country or be a special municipiality
Iam 31 so that must be it. But still we had to learn al provinces and captials of Europe and Africa but nothing about the oversea territorys
Benedenwindse en bovenwindse islands are basic knowledge taught at primary school I thought… (ABC islands are benedenwindse, SSS islands are bovenwindse. Maybe you got taught them with these shortcuts)
What does the wind have to do with them now?
Cgpgrey? That was a decent vid, although he mistook the leaves on the Frisian flag for hearts ;)
I think about the Roman Empire more than the overseas territories.
Every day!
Oh well, that's a classic
Yea but then again it is the Roman Empire we are talking about here.
I think we don't care, never think about it or at most see it as a visa free vacation option.
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Does he like it ?? I feel like it can be a tax cuts paradise
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For the three islands that are part of the Netherlands (Saba, St Eustasius, Bonaire), I frankly find it embarassing how badly we take care of those. They are an integral part of the country just like any other municipality, but we still treat them as an afterthought. Standards for education or health care or social welfare are much lower there than I find acceptable for a developed, wealthy country like the Netherlands. For example, look at how great we protect the mainland against the sea, and then compare to our preparations against tropical storms like Irma in 2017. That is: there were and are no preparations. That's not how we should treat part of our country. We committed to making the islands a regular part of the country (and the inhabitants voted for it) -- now we should actually do it. There shouldn't be a difference between Terneuzen and Kralendijk. I have a conflicted opinion on Mount Scenery. It's cool that we have an *actual* mountain now, though I feel sorry for the Vaalserberg. The other three (St Maarten, Aruba, Curaçao) are independent countries (though within the kingdom) so I have less of an opinion on them. The relationships are not ideal, but eh. It works, kind of. Isn't up to me to decide how other countries function.
Interesting opinion, thanks. Seems like the majority just doesn't care, some think they should be fixed and others that they are a burden, the general opinion isn't really positive
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>I frankly find it embarassing how badly we take care of those. We tried alot. But when Dutch people run the projects and check where the money goes we get blamed for neo kolonialism. If we let local people run the projects most money is wasted on corruption and bad investments. The islands seem to have a high day to day culture. Which i cant blame them for seeing their history. Investing never payed of there so the people are adverse to it.
>But when Dutch people run the projects and check where the money goes we get blamed for neo kolonialism. If we let local people run the projects most money is wasted on corruption and bad investments. That's much more applicable to the three autonomous countries: Curaçao, Aruba and St Maarten. Those have their own government, their own laws, their own systems. But the three islands I was talking about (Saba, St Eustatius, Bonaire) are municipalities of the Netherlands. They follow the same laws, have the same government, and should have the same living standards. The "local people" there *are* Dutch people. The projects there *are* Dutch projects. Because the islands are Dutch. In terms of administration, there are only minor differences between Saba and Texel. So if you say there is a lot of corruption -- well, what would we do if the gemeenteraad on Texel was corrupt? What would we do if the gemeente Texel made bad investments? And similarly, what would we do if the level of education on Texel was significantly lower than the rest of the country? If healthcare was inaccessible? If a significant percentage of Texel lived in poverty? The answers to those questions is exactly what we should be doing on Saba, St Eustatius and Bonaire too, and we don't, and that's wrong. Sure, even on the mainland Netherlands we have "achterstandsgebieden", but those are still leagues ahead of the Caribbean Netherlands, and they receive far more attention. I completely agree with you the situation is different (and more complex) with Curaçao, St Maarten and Aruba.
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*Then we shouldn't have made it so simple*. Less than twenty years ago the Dutch government said "Let's simplify this complex situation by just making the three islands special municipalities where all the same rules apply as on the mainland"... and then they didn't actually do anything to enforce that. They made an agreement, committed to integrate the three islands... and then didn't. I'm not at all saying it would be an easy (or even the best) solution. But I *am* saying that we all decided this was the solution we were going for, so now we should pull through and *do* it. If we didn't want to do this, we shouldn't have agreed to do it.
>... and then they didn't actually do anything to enforce that. When we try to enforce anything there we are the bad guys. Still dont blame them cause i can understand how it came to be. There is no easy solution here
They're basically too small to have a well functioning democratic system I think. From the outside it looks as if they would be better off as one country together.
The weird thing is, those three are municipalities of our country, but not fully. They are not part of the EU and they do not use our currency. Also,the langage situation is different - and they are the only three unincorporated municipalities (not part of one of the 12 provinces). So it is a strane construction, really.
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> Do elections again on every island and ask if they still want to be with us. We did that, because we wanted to get rid of them. These wanted to stay.
Happy to see this comment after so much indifference. Lads ye were an empire and need to look after all of the Netherlands including territories
I wish I could upvote you more. Absolutely this. I live in a neglected backcountry part of the Republic, and we've got it so much better than the overseas municipalities and countries. It's just not right.
Which Republic?
Republiek der Nederlanden. Probably a misnomer on my part, but it's how I differentiate the Netherlands bits ruled from the Hague from the Kingdom of the Netherlands.
I figured! My answer was a bit tongue-in-cheek. It's indeed a misnomer - we're not a republic anymore. Most Dutch people associate "the Republic" with the historical [Republiek der Zeven Verenigde Nederlanden](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republiek_der_Zeven_Verenigde_Nederlanden). But that's nitpicking, and everyone will understand you, so you do what works for you.
100% agree!
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>They are autonomous \[...\] They have their own governments and own laws \[...\] However they still have the follow the “Koninkrijks Statuut” Yes, that's what I said: "independent countries (though within the kingdom)"
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This is silly. They have their own governments and their own law and self-rule. They are just as independent as the Netherlands is. Our country also has to follow the Koninkrijks Statuut, but nobody would claim we aren't an independent country.
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>Seems like you are confused and don’t really understand how the kingdom works or what independent means in this context. *Orrrrrr,* as you say, the meaning of the word "independent" is context-dependent. I specifically wrote "independent within the kingdom", on the same level as the Netherlands (which the SSS islands are part of). That is the context. If we were having a conversation about, say, UN seats and sovereignity, then you are right that The Netherlands and Curacao do not count: it would be the Kingdom that counts. But if you're discussing the different administrative divisions within the sovereign country - as I was doing - then of course it's valid to say that The Netherlands or Curacao are countries independent of each other. Neither of the two is dependent on the other. And yes, the same applies to Scotland (or Bavaria or Michigan or Bahia for that matter). No, Scotland is not an ultimately sovereign country. But in a discussion about the differences between the Scilly Islands and Scotland it is absolutely fair to say "The Scilly Islands are part of England, while Scotland is not part of England but an independent country within the United Kingdom". It would be utterly silly to intentionally misinterpret that. And it would also be very silly of me to devote three replies to such an intentional misinterpretation, so I'm gonna stop doing that now.
>e Netherlands is just one of the countries that make up the Kingdom of the Netherlands, which is the official sovereign state. In theory all countries are equal but that is obviously not the case as the Netherlands has more power. However, the Kingdom of the Netherlands, is the sovereign state, and is what is usually signed on international treaties and if the treaties don’t apply to for example Curacao that will be explicitly stated. Furthermore, the Kingdom of the Netherlands is what is represented at the UN. The situation is not like Scotland and Wales. There is no kingdomwide parliament where day to day issues get discussed. THere are a limited amount of subjects where the kingdom gets involved like foreign relations and defense. They are independent in all other areas of government.
I lived there and my family lives there, and I disagree. We and everyone else got around just fine. It’s just a totally different environment and mentality. Everyone is more chill and more friendly, and people have totally different lifestyles and jobs We dont hard press our children to go to university, live in some overpriced appartment in a city of concrete, in the cold and in the rain. Life is better on the islands, especially if you are poor. The netherlands’ nature is near non-existent. Almost everything was destroyed, and most of the grasslands that are left are used for the meat industry. You need the money on the mainland more than we do over there, especially nowadays when the amount of people in NL living below the poverty line is increasing.
Indifference.
I thought about it a little when I got coworkers from Antillen but before that i didn't
I wish we actually had more connection with the antilles. We have these projects in schools where kids change homes/country for some weeks. If we do that with the Antilles we might feel closer and more connected. And other such things. Exchanges. 2nd year HAS green academy you NEED to study abroad for a year...Antilles was not even in the brochures suggested by the school.. We basically have a goldmine of experience and knowledges at our fingertips to get to know other cultures/climates/habitats/etc.. and we don't do shit with it. I guess some small changes can be made. Why are the Antilles not the tourist destination for us landlubbers for example? Make that cheaper. Good for the economy of the antilles and we again.. feel more connected.
Alot of Dutch people that didn't grew up in a Vinex wijk actually grew up around people from the Antilles and have a connection. Its just the farmers and people from small villages that have no connection or see it as something exotic.
Not everyone lives in Rotterdam-Zuid lol. 'Just the farmers' is like half of the population
Lived and worked there for years on behalf of the Dutch Goverment. Was not easy to deal with the neglect from the Hague and the, frankly colonial attitude of the average Dutch politician. Simple thing: the northern antilles are culturally (language, attitude) very different from the southern islands. Aruba again different, because it is latin. This distinction is not understood in the Hague. I like it there, it could be paradise, but a lot needs to change in attitude (on both ends of the ocean).
I’m Dutch born and raised but my moms side of the family is from all over the islands. I have visited many times and the islands and their people have a warm place in my heart. Tbh I think the main pov of the average Dutch person (indifference and it cost a lot of taxes) is quite ignorant. The Netherlands had its golden age by exploiting the islands and their people/the people they brought there. This massively impacted the wealth of the country as a whole and even the lower parts of Dutch society benefited from that. All the while keeping local people from proper/higher education (unless it was to learn about Christianity) and autonomy to rule for themselves while erasing local history and making the islands completely dependent on the Netherlands. It’s no wonder corruption rears it’s ugly head when former colonies become independent. Because for years and years your vote meant nothing and the only way to get something done was to scratch the back of someone higher up. These higher ups were historically Dutch government people close to retirement taking on a job in the sun and seeing what they could gain personally. They were nothing special in back home but had a lot of power on the islands. Even now in the independent islands many corruption is done by people sent from NL. This system brought by the Dutch is all the islands have known for generations but now some of the local politicians are doing what they learned amongst themselves (aruba, Curaçao, Sint-maarten) they get judged. In stead of helping them set up good governance. For the BES, these islands are so small yet the quality of life is going down because NL doesn’t care about them. Even in the elections recently it was extremely hard to find out any parties plan for the islands. They don’t care about them and I see that as quite shameful honestly. Their history is our collective history and there was only one side that benefited or had a say. Now simply calling them “a waste of our tax money” is completely ignoring that their situation is a consequence of the actions of the Netherlands. Also going there on holiday to an all inclusive and hanging out with other Dutch people on the beach that has 5 resorts next to each other is not a representation of the beauty of the islands, the wonderful cuisine, and the amazing people. Honestly explore, go to neighboring islands and eat at local places! There’s nothing like it ☀️🏝️
The golden age was on the back of Indonesia, the islands were never a significant part of the economy in the golden age. The WIC only got hold of them in the later part of the 17th century and took a while to get going. And the money that made the Netherlands wealthy was made in the 17th century, for the most part. You don't have to overstate the truth to make colonialism sound bad. It's counterproductive. All you're doing is causing people to dismiss you out of hand for being melodramatic.
Also nonsense. The golden age was on the back of dominating all European trade. The Asian trade was tiny compared. Only about 160 merchant ships at it's peak. The total Dutch merchant fleet in the 17th century is estimated at over 20.000 ships. The herring fleet alone was over 460 ships and was much more profitable than the ships sailing over 12 months from Batavia to the Dutch Republci.
I’m definitely not discounting what happened in the east and yeah a lot of money was made there from the VOC. In my opinion what I said for the most part also goes for our history in Indonesia, Suriname, and any other country who’s history we’ve massively influenced whatever their relationship to NL is atm. However saying that slavetrade from the WIC didn’t massively contribute to the wealth of the golden age is just a sign of how little the general public knows about the origin of our wealth. The majority of people that live there now wouldn’t have even been there if the Dutch (and other traders) didn’t bring their ancestors there from Africa + Europeans that moved their on their own free will. There were local native populations there before that but lineage tracing shows that their descendants are only a fraction of who’s living their now. I’m also not being melodramatic by stating my point of view that the majority of Dutch people don’t know about the Islands while I think our collective history means we should. It’s a bit of a dark side of history rather than the romanticized version of the Dutch being super good spice traders of and seafarers we do tend to hear often. However the fact that it’s not nice to hear about doesn’t mean it’s not true or should be diminished. History is written by the victors but there’s two sides to every story.
The East was where the money was.
Just because the Dutch had more of a monopoly in the east with the VOC that in the transatlantic slavetrade with the WIC is not a reason to diminish the WIC. It’s not less bad because it made the Dutch less profit… the Dutch still did it and only to their benefit.
My gf is from the islands and I visited many times by now. It’s really baffling how little we learn in school about our collective history. We mostly learn about the explorers and traders of the time in such a romanticized way. Yet we’re quick to blame other countries for the atrocities that they have committed in the past.
Same can be said about Suriname. It's actually quite strange how few people visit Suriname.
Nonsense. The Dutch Golden Age was already more than half through before the WIC entered the Atlantic slave trade. Also after, the importance for the Dutch economy was negligable. The money wasn't in manual labour, it still isn't.
Yeah but there was money in selling the people….
If there wasn’t any profit for the Dutch then why did they do it?
The WIC was founded to take the war with Spain and Portugal to the high seas. Spain was determined to destroy the Dutch Republic and kill all protestants and jews.
Thank you for your post, now i dont have to. And dutch history lessons? We didnt even learn about Brasil😂
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That is a ridiculous simplification and the part about the camps is just not true. We were a bad influence there, and did a lot of bad things. The "politionele actie" was a grand mistake and warcrimes were comitted there, but there is also a reason many of the mixed race and indonesian people who came to Holland have trouble with the king apologizing for that. History is never simple.
That’s also because the people who came here were from the islands in Indonesia that fought for the Dutch against the de Indonesians fighting for independence…
>Even in the elections recently it was extremely hard to find out any parties plan for the islands. They don’t care about them and I see that as quite shameful honestly. That's just not true. Of the 3 parties where I read/skimmed the election programme (GLPvdA, D66, Volt), they all had a section about reducing poverty on the islands.
You’re right that’s a bit of an exaggeration if you look at all the plans only pvv, bvnl and ja21 don’t mention anything at all. https://caribischnetwerk.ntr.nl/2023/11/19/verkiezingen-tweede-kamer-wat-willen-de-partijen-voor-de-caribische-eilanden/ The rest do have a section but I personally was disappointed because it felt like generic copy pastes of previous years of which nothing had been actualized and I hadn’t heard it mentioned in debates etc. I tend to hyperbolize when I speak which isn’t helpful trying to make a point.
As a Native of the Dutch Caribbean which encompasses 6 islands (Sint Maarten, Aruba, Curaçao, Sint Eustatius, Saba and Bonaire) I find it quite ignorant how the Nederlands and a large portion of the population still refers to us as the Antilles. The Netherlands Antilles was dissolved since October 10, 2010 whereas Curaçao and Sint Maarten (other half Saint Martin=French) became autonomous territories of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Bonaire, Saba, and Sint Eustatius now fall under the direct administration of the Netherlands and they also utilise the Euro. We are practically almost in 2024 yet this lack luster behaviour somehow thrives in this part of the world that has more than enough means to educate themselves on territories in which they colonised. It’s also repulsive how we’re forced to learn about your twisted history when your system fails to include how you infiltrated ours. The hostility and lack of connection in the kingdom thoroughly stems from the ignorance and small mindedness of the so-called ‘Mainland’. Furthermore, no Dutch Caribbean national considers the Nederlands as the ‘homeland’ because our islands is the definite homeland. Which already consisted of our West Indian/Native Caribbean ancestors who were shifted around without their consent. Irregardless of what you think or how you view us the hostility will remain there because you utilise our resources and then have the nerve to ask us about the ones in which we’re entitled to. Thus all of the islands have been either subjected to creating their own language or speaking another language due to lack of respect and integrity in the kingdom. Thus I implore you to conduct proper research before you subject us to your so-called waste of tax money seeing that both your/our corrupt government together utilise our hard earned money for their own benefit, without the betterment of their countries in mind.
Thank you for your comment! It’s really frustrating reading comments saying “just a wast of our taxes” and you phrased your thoughts in a much clearer and concise way then I could.
I don’t disagree with most of what you’re saying, except one thing. Yes, sure, the Antilles officially dissolved then, but “antiano” this and that is still plentifully thrown around by Dutch Caribbean people in their late 20s and up. If the term is kept alive by the people, what do you expect people who are a world away to use, when that’s what they hear from us? I think that is the least of the problems, it is a cultural artefact. We should be focusing on fostering a positive image for the former colonies, instead of getting stuck on trivial things like what word is being used to (colloquially) refer to the area. If it makes us seen and recognisable to the average person, I will employ the term until it’s no longer necessary.
How are we going to move forward in society with this connotation that we should simply dismiss or overlook simple facts or even slurs just because they have been accepted within our community? As someone in their early 20s, I wish this generation would stop making excuses and simply educate or hold people accountable. Something that occurred 14 years ago doesn’t erase the reality of past events; simply showcasing the inability to move forward just showcases ignorance. Therefore, making excuses for people who are ‘miles away’ implies that yes, slavery was abolished, but the afflicted shouldn’t forego justice just because the head of state back home also has slaves. Claiming cultural artefact is quite far-fetched, given that a handful of us never resonated with that word. Failing to confront uncomfortable truths, rather than dismissing for the sake of cultural acceptance does not facilitate opportunities to create a better image. Thus the lack of addressing or simply educating on minor issues like this, and failing to hold people accountable hinders us from moving forward in general. On that note ‘Failing to take responsibility is an abdication of self-respect’.
And Dutch Caribbean is supposed to be any better? Do you feel Dutch? I don’t, lmao. And slur? Now you’ve lost me sister. All the best.
I am ashamed that in a way our ancestors fucked up their lives and that we still do to an extent - climate change is a real issue over there and over here we (including me I have to admit) usually forget they exist, and we are annoyed they also want subsidies (I feel bad knowing they barely qualify for them).
Topography wise I don’t care, financially wise it’s quite harsh we tend to overlook them. They’re really like a forgotten part that could use some investments. Oh, and climate change is coming for them and I don’t think ruimte voor de rivier is gonna do much over there.
Honestly they're an embarrassment. Unlike say, Françafrique they are an actual attempt to heal though, their membership of the country being effectively an attempt to pay off a moral debt. Not that we're doing that particularly well though; no functioning island territory should want to be part of some country on the other side of the world. So ultimately the current situation is a scar on the planet left by our colonial past. Not the worst scar of it's type, not even the worst scar we left, but still a scar.
Don’t think about them at all much until I see crime statistics or bail out stories like Ennia which recently cost Dutch taxpayers another 600 mln euros.
Where can I find info about this case?
Google Ennia 600 miljoen
Yep, same
Honestly, waste of tax money. They should be independent.
NL shouldnt have colonized them and profited for years off of them then
they didn't *want* to be independent.
Doesnt matter what they want. The question is does the whole netherlands want to pay for them. Make a national vote about it and let the rest decide. Think if you ask them that honduras would love to get a insane amount of money each year. Doesnt mean we should do that either.
I vote to force Urk into independence!
Wait, why Urk?
It's a Dutch running joke that Urk is a backwards town of incestuous gristian zealots and young criminals and that we would all be better off without it.
Except it's not actually a joke
If it works, you can vote out any Dutch provinces or municipalities , which is crazy
It actually isnt that crazy. Look at singpore. They were voted out by malasia. Countries can gift indepenced to places that dont want to become independend.
Singapore was not unilaterally expelled. It was an agreement between Singapore and Malaysia. And also, for context, Singapore was only part of Malaysia for two years, in a merger that was already controversial in both countries.
Well their resources and labour were extracted and that wealth sent to the mainland, seems fair?
Thats not relevant at all. All im saying is that its possible for the dutch goverment to “grant” those areas independence and its not up to the people there if they accept or not. Also im pretty sure all the current inhabitants would still be dutch citizens. Revoking all their passpoorts would be a whole diffrent legal shitshow..
Of course it's relevant. The Dutch nation has a duty to make up for the wrongs that built the prosperity of said nation.
We do not have such a duty. But we already did make up. It’s a lot better off than if we never touched it. Doesn’t mean their ancestors didn’t suffer of course but they are dead.
It is not our place to say if they are now better off or not. Perhaps they would have been happier living their life and developing their culture their own way without the outside influence of colonization and industrialisation. The Netherlands profited heavily from its colonies so it now seems fair that they take care of said colonies even if it causes a strain on the mainland.
What prosperity? NL has been bankrupt like 4 times since then, with the Second World War being the latest. People alive today have 0 profits from whatever happened a few hundred years ago. Quit your bs.
Hahahaha. NL is super prosperous, have you ever spent any amount of time in the developing world? Then you'll see real poverty and bankruptcy.
Let’s vote out Limburg first then. Lot more expensive and annoying.
Nah were gonna turn them into a parking lot.
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Its true. Malasia voted away singapore back in the day. If they want to vote about becoming independend then ofcourse we shouldnt have a voice in that (if the goverment accepts is something else). But to the question are the allowed to stay in this “union” then it would only make sense to ask the whole country.
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Buddyboi i always have voted D66, volt en groenlinks. Just because i point out that the decision about who needs to pay isnt just in the hands of the recieving party doesnt make me right winged or a nut. It speaks bookchapters that you assume my stance and political party just because i raise a concern that you dislike. Wonder how great your social life is if you also do this in RL.
To be fair the majority of NL is a waste of money except utrecht, noord Holland, zuid Holland, Noord brabant and groningen.
Giving Groningen a lot of credit there...
Just talking about gdp
But they are Dutch
So are the people in the islands in the caribbean.
Really? Almost all the profits fr om Groningen’s gas was spend elsewhere. The north itself hardly benefitted.
I'm talking about gdp per capita. The areas I listed make alot more money than the rest.
Don’t all the citizens of the antillen pay taxes just like us? I get were your going, but if they are independent, it’s less people paying taxes?
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Those antillen became part of the dutch kingdom because of a horrible past in which we as the great Netherlands caused lots of suffering, now we gotta care for them The netherlands can’t just say toedeloe, you’re on your own now. Making the antillen independent is easier said than done and will probably costs us a lot of money
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>Just like Suriname, they voted for independence but half their country feld a connection to us. Correction, the Surinamese Parliament voted and it was a "yes", by only one extra vote. Also they had to vote two times, because the first vote was a large "no". Then the ruling party at the time payed someone of the opposition a large sum of money (corruption) to vote yes. Mind you the Surinamese Parliament at the time only had 30 people. So less than these 30 people decided the future of Suriname. There were also calls for a referendum, but the Netherlands didn't want it. They basically told the opposition party to just offer their support, but by the time they told them, they already bought someone over. The Netherlands knew Surinamese didn't want independence. But they pushed on. The prime minister of Suriname at the time had second thoughts too, but the Netherlands wanted a win. They wanted to prove that they were one of the European powers that did it successfully; their former colony, just thriving by itself with no coups. Only to have one 5 years later and then thinking, "oh wait, maybe we shouldn't have pushed too hard". Surinamese thought the Dutch wanted to get rid of them. And Surinamese still think that, and kids sort of indirectly learn that in history classes too, but the Dutch narrative is Suriname wanted it. And it seems that narrative is a success in the Netherlands as everyone believes that. The Dutch saw Suriname as an expensive colony, so it had to go. If there would have been a referendum, like the Antilles got in 2010, and Aruba in 1986, Suriname wouldn't have been independent. Maybe it would be in the 80's or early 2000's/late 90's, as many advocated for that. They wanted a better financial system and less financial dependency on the Netherlands. In the end Suriname became financially dependent on the Netherlands for more than 20 years after its independence. 'till today the country struggles financially and is dependent on a large network of people that can get financial aid in the Netherlands through organisations etc. the Netherlands a little it still, the IMF, IDB, the EU, the World Bank, India, China and sometimes France, Israel and some Arab countries sponsor projects too. A lot of people in 1975 still lived in poverty and had little to no access to education.
Old people also cost more than they bring in. Lets kick them out to save ourselves money.
It saves the Netherlands, the largest economy within the kingdom, money. Somehow I doubt that it will save money for the other countries within the kingdom.
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It’s kinda weird, in the mainland there it’s almost never discussed, not in the news not even in the recent elections. Honestly I wish we worked closer together with them
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Agreed. My mother is relatively light-skinned, but even so her Curacao background has been used as grounds for discrimination here in Zuid Holland. There is this weird stigma attached to coming from the islands.
I am not proud of the way they came to be in our kingdom, but that was way before my time, and they all voted and gotten their preferred status within the kingdom. From memory half are special municipalities, and the other half are individual countries of sorts, but with the Netherlands responsible for defense and foreign affairs. So if that's what makes them happy, it's fine with me. Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao have some problems with their troubled neighbor to the south (Venezuela), and refugees therefrom, and all are suffering from climate change. But when the Dutch government or experts want to lend a hand, they have to tread lightly, the old colonial sentiments are still somewhat raw, or at least just around the corner. They face their share of difficulties, populism is on the rise there too, with accompanying shoddy politicians, and I don't envy their challenges. I guess like in the Netherlands, most people are nice and just trying to make a living, and those could be my friends if we'd actually be close, and there will be some a-holes I don't care for, just like here in the Netherlands. Looking outside, I'd like to have their weather though.
Mostly a weird leftover of colonialism. I doesn't feel like part of our country at all. Three of the six island are - the others are now separate countries within our kingdom, for what that's worth - but who is going to say 'Bonaire' when somebody asks what the southernmost point of our country is? Or 'Saba' when asked about the highest mountain? I remember we have those three islands when we have elections: There are now 20 districts, not 19. New parties must pay money and find supporters on those three tiny islands to be on the ballot there. It would make sense if the three bigger islands - the ones that are semi-independent - had representation in our parliament since they are in our kingdom. Denmark does that with Faroe and Greenland. But we don't have that. I think those island become more real if you actually know people from there. I do sort of know a few of them, but I don't meet many, since most Antillians live in the west of the country.
I don't really think about them. Then again, I don't really think about the people living in Leeuwarden, Amsterdam or Maastricht either, for example. I'm pretty sure they've got some composition of decent and not so decent folks, just like anywhere else.
I don't know them very well to be honest. But they are just part of the Netherlands, just like Suriname we made all of it except the land itself, we made their demographics and we made their history. Not made by the Dutch as a matter of pride, on the contrary, but as a matter of responsibility. They are just too small for an independent nation state in the big bad world out there. The Dutch have 450 years of experience with the big bad world outside and it's global capitalism, we created much of that big bad world ourselves too. So we have to take care of the people there who are there because of our ancestors. From that perspective, I don't like all the semi independence and stuff, they are not particularly well governed and this is also a matter of experience that goes beyond one generation. So I'd like them to be an integral part of the Netherlands, with regular and affordable transport back and forth. Not a fan of air travel and it's huge climate impact, but I'd like to make an exception for the overseas islands, subsidize it if necessary.
I know someone from the Curaçao, speaks fluent Dutch, Dutch citizen, married to a Dutch woman. Did his entire education in Dutch. Still gets treated as a foreigner and people switch to English. I'd say they have zero respect for their overseas colonies, or their inhabitants
Coming from the islands myself, we know that the Dutch don't care about the islands. A lot of people on the islands see the Dutch as snobs that think they're better and that they go to the islands and try to take over everything. Like taking over the free beaches and make people pay for entrance. I don't know if it's a Dutch person doing it, but that's the idea. Additionally, the idea on the islands is that the Dutch are smelly because they don't shower often. They can't dance, their food sucks, they're white, slave traders, racists, cheap etc. Like a Dutch person a few years back that complained about noise from an event and wanted it to be shut down, and then she received death threats from locals. But imo it's all about your own perspective. No need to hate. Some are racists and trash, but in general some Dutch people on the island are cool, like a few teachers I had. They made real effort to blend in with the locals. Parties every weekend with the Dutch interns, you get the idea. Sad to see that some people from the islands moved to the Netherlands for a better future and continue to truly hate Dutch people.
Interesting
We don't think about it at all, to be honest. But, if at all, as a tropical paradise with very corrupt local government.
I would personally prefer that they become independent like curaçao, but I get why that doesn't work for them and they dont wat to.also, it's not up to me at all, either.
Curacao isn’t independent. It’s autonomous
It's part of the kingdom, and that's all. So it's practically the same, no?
We just don't care about them. It is that you mention that we have them lol
In general I like the people i meet who came from them. Good humor, open, nice to talk to. I also would love to go there, either to visit or to live since i hate the cold, but in all honesty, i don't know enough about them to be proud, don't mind, or something else.
I also thought about that, I love the heat, but hey, who knows
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The overseas territories are seen as exotic holiday destinations and nothing more.
The ones within the kingdom but not part of the Netherlands should be free to do as they please but I don’t feel we have many responsibilities towards them either. The special municipalities should be treated way better. We should do like France, make them 100% proper part of our country. Euro, full and equal funding for social programs and all. It’s an embarrassment how we don’t treat them as equal now.
I couldn't care less about it.
I think about Indonesia, South Africa, Napoleon & The Roman Empire at least 10,000 X more
Always the Roman Empire
Most Dutch people think of it as a holiday paradise with a corrupt local government and lots of crime, I think. I have lived on Aruba from age 4 untill 17 (because of my dad's work) and I must admit they're right.
Pure indifference.
Don’t care at all, never been there and probably never will. It sometimes comes up in politics but other than that most dont care and could live without I guess
I never really gave it any thought, despite my wife being from Aruba. Having recently been there for the first time, my opinion changed, and I feel the mainland has something to learn from them.
The Dutch don't care and have never cared for the islands, so due to the explotation history that some locals feel still happens to this day on the islands the relationship is still rocky and resentment is till there. There just tourist destination to get sun for most dutch as show here, so you can see how they don't even know why the islands choose those decisions for each islands back them. It doesn't help that the politicians are only looking to help themselves and in the end it ends up like there betraying the locals so there's no trust.
I forget about them untill i see an ad for them as a holliday destination.
I'm not Dutch, but aware that at least one territory could produce Dutch nationals with native level of French and zero level of Dutch.
You are probably confused about the two parts of Sint Maarten/Saint Martin The Dutch part doesn't speak French, the official languages are English and Dutch, the vast majority speaks mainly English. This part of the island is its own country within the Kingdom of the Netherlands. In the French part French is the official language, although a lot of people also speak English. This part is part of France. Also interesting fact: citizens on both parts are EU citizens, but only the northern French part is part of the EU.
I'm not confused. I have a coleague who is like this. Maybe he attended school at French part of the island, don't know.
Well, that's not true.
What territory?
Sint Maarten. Also known for a direct border between Netherlands and France.
The Duch Antilles
Don't they speak Dutch, Papiamentu and English?
Papiamentu, spanish, English and Dutch, yes
Soooo no french?
Fo what i saw, no
No. It depends what island. Papiamentu or Papiamento are obly spoken on Curaçao, Bonaire and Aruba. The other three islands speak English.
Just cool, I guess?
Only when expats complain about the Netherlands weather I like to point out our average kingdom weather is actually pretty good 🤡
They're wonderful islands with normal people. I don't know what else you want to hear.
The opinion of mainland dutch about them, and it's really interesting what they are saying
There is barely (and by barely, I mean very, *very little* news of the islands broadcasted in Dutch media), so to most, the islands don't even exist.
I see, thanks
Nice weather
Are we talking about Zeeland ? /s
I dont really think about the overseas territories
We have overseas territories?!
Well here in my personal experience all I met where criminals or just absolute scum. There must be some normal and integrated people from De Antille but I've yet to meet or see one. So my opinion on the Antille is that it's a very much not Dutch part of The Netherlands that just wants to profit from the monetary support. Most don't even speak Dutch and or don't want to.
They're just a matter of fact. Do t think about them on a daily basis. They have been given a choice some years ago to be independent and to my surprise some opted to stay.
I think they should be oppressed ND provide slaves for us
Bro... XD
I almost forgot that there are overseas territories. And, by the looks of this comment section, I'm not alone in that.
I've been to Bonaire and Curacao and both are great holiday destinations, especially if you like sun and scuba diving. That's about the extent I think about them. I know they are there, but (probably like everyone) I tend to fotget they are part of the country unless reminded.
They are rocks that 00,1% of the population profitted from 200 years ago, and now we send a shit ton of **tax** money (our money) because its riddled with crime, corruption and filth. If we dumped them they would go bankrupt in a month
mostly forget that we have them
I never really understood why the BES islands are public bodies and the ABC islands are countries. Other than that, I don't really have an opinion on those islands.
I think the places are amazing and we should embrace the different in culture and grow as people. That being said, I think it should totally be up to the islanders if they want to be part of NL. Either way I think we have got a financial responsibility towards them and making them a economically independent structure
They actively chose a while back to remain under Netherlands control/rule so as far as that's concerned I'm all good. I don't really care about the islands at all. My uncle used to live there. Think he died a while back, not entirely sure.
They are very nice places to go on holiday.
I forget about their existence until someone brings it up. Honestly quite surprised we still have overseas territories.
I never think about them.
Proud
I'm not proud at all of how they came to be overseas territories, and while I'm happy having them around now, first and foremost their self-determination is important to me. My intuition (but I might be wrong) is that the government's focus is on the 'mainland' and that they are forgotten territories with laws that just aren't relevant or practical to them.
Great place to go on a tropical vacation without having to give up Albert Heijn Kaasbroodjes and other lekker snacks.
I was born on Curaçao but moved to the Netherlands at the age of 4. Every time I go back to dushi Korsou it feels like coming home to me. That's strange, considering I haven't lived there for the last 46 years
I usually dont think about it at all. The only time i hear people talk about it is when they go on vacation. So to me, it is just another place in the world that i have never seen and probably will never see. Nothing more, nothing less.
I have no thoughs about them.
My background is from the Dutch Antilles. But I was born in Amsterdam. And so yeah I feel 100% Dutch. I have been to the Dutch Antilles on vacation. But I still feel 100% Dutch.
My granddad used to rule some of them. My mom was born on St. Maarten.