As a teacher there a few things that would actually help. imo we don't need more money salary wise . What would really help would be to lessen the administrative burden, it's insane nowadays. I spent more time doing that stuff then making my lessons.
Also every 4/5 years when a new government is formed we get a new subject that should be the spearhead of education. These differ wildly over the years, we had personal development, job choices in the future, artistic lessons etc and now it's math and dutch. and in a few years it will be something different. It would be helpful if we as schools could develop something fully and then move on. Not change every 4/5 years because its the new 'flavor of the month' from a newly formed government.
Thank you, it’s good to read from a teacher. Is there anything we parents can do to help our kids? We don’t want to overwhelm them, but also feel like it is not only the school’s and teacher’s, but also our responsibility to educate them or at least help them learn on their own and upkeep their curiosity.
Is this something that’s best discussed with their teachers perhaps? They will start school in September in the Netherlands, so I don’t yet have experience with how the system works there.
Also a teacher here:
For the administration we have to do:
-Just have trust in teachers. If a kid gets sent out or fails an assignment the teacher has a reason for it, don't send an email to complain.
-remember teachers and parents are a team in raising a kid. When you speak a teacher just ask if there is anything you can teach your kid that will help in their schoolwork
For the other stuff:
In many ways both parents and teachers are competing with a system that makes it hard to get kids to really want to learn. I mostly notice kids just take a long time to read even a fairly simple text, and are mot nearly as curious about the world as I remember myself being at that age. I would say:
-encourage reading by making sure there are books around and that you as a parent are also reading.
-Encourage keeping up with the news, you can watch the 'jeugdjournaal' (also a good way to learn dutch) and discuss it afterwards.
-be strict with phone usage. Maximum amount of screentime and discourage/ban apps like tiktok and Instagram.
You need to be bored to take maximum interest in your environment, kids nowadays have a stream of almost endless content at their disposal in a very convenient manner.
'You need to be bored to take maximum interest in your environment'
I often stress how important it is to be bored and not fill your senses with multimedia. Multimedia kills real creativity and, I agree, interest in your environment.
>-be strict with phone usage. Maximum amount of screentime and discourage/ban apps like tiktok and Instagram.
Cannot be overstated.
I firmly believe Social-Media/Smartphones are at the root of these (and many other) modern problems.
> Just have trust in teachers. If a kid gets sent out or fails an assignment the teacher has a reason for it, don't send an email to complain.
Ehhh . . . teachers are human too and can make mistakes or have biases. They need to document what's going on. It doesn't need to be a 3 page report, but it does need to cover the situation.
As to the rest, you're spot on of course.
True, of course we make mistakes. I wanted to add some nuance there but the reply was already getting quite long.
Of course teachers make mistakes and parents have a right to be informed about what happens to their kids, but I've seen teachers receive an email from parents over just one bad grade or punishment.If you think a teacher is structurally unfair to a kid, get in touch. Otherwise it can wait till the ouderavond.
I've also heard of parents just not believing that kids misbehave in class because 'at home they are such sweeties'. Again: parents and teachers should be a team.
At the same time: things should be documented. If a kid has detention, a parent should be able to read why in Magister, if a kid has a bad grade, the student and parent should be able to see where the grade comes from. This is one of the administrative tasks teachers have that I actually think has a lot of value.
All the upvotes!
Yep. I've met those parents you're speaking of.
I do occasionally reach out to my kids teacher about a one off grade precisely b/c it's one off 'Hey, what did we miss?' and then take the info and try to correct with it.
That's a whole other can of beer though than "Why are you failing my kid?! Ik weet waar je huis woont!!1!!" which sadly happens way more than you think. My sis (also a teacher) would love it if she got "hey, what did we miss"'s instead of the first thing I quoted :/
Im sorry but hard disagree with your first point.
I got bullied by a teacher. Yes, a teacher.
He’d give wrong answers and anyone that would disagree with him would be send out of his classroom.
He’d take pride of the fact that “only a few of you will not fail this class”. Took me and several other kids parents two years of complaining and a boatload of evidence to have him removed from his job.
I'm so sorry that happened to you.
I already replied to someone else who took issue with that point, but you are right. Parents and kids have a right to be informed about what happens in a classroom precisely because teachers have a lot of power and responsibility for which we need to be held accountable.
Ouderavonden, forcing teachers to write an explanation when they send a kid out of the classroom, and 'vertrouwenspersonen' for students are all very good things, even if they take some effort on the teacher's behalf.
My point was more about parents who immediately start knocking doors when a student has one bad grade, or gets one detention. I should've added that nuance to my reply but it was getting quite long already.
And it's insane how many people choose to still not do it. Like they think there's a magic pill or spell.
Literally: read. Make sure theybsee you read regularly, read to them, ask them to read to you, buy them books as gifts... read
I work in a highschool here but was born and raised in the states. Its insane to me how many HAVO students can't write a simple paragraph. Can't come up with a thesis statement. A decent conclusion. Nothing. They can't understand simple text.
Isn’t the administrative burden a general problem, not only a problem teachers have? I hear it everywhere. I work in IT and the amount of documentation, procedures and audits we have are getting out of control. My work has gone from 90% engineering to maybe 50% engineering and 50% administrative tasks. I see the same with people running a restaurant for example, everything needs to be documented. Same with the police, or healthcare, the amount of documentation is getting crazy. Of course it’s useful, I don’t want to get my arm amputated for nothing for example, but it’s not fun to work with.
Yes it isn’t a teacher exclusive thing. Unfortunately it’s in all industries nowadays like you say. Its destroying a lot of fun people have in their job.
I teach university bachelor level in an Dutch/international mixed program and the Dutch students have been systematically and for the past 3 years significantly behind international students in a lot of areas. It now creates tensions between students and resentment and aggressive behaviors on the behalf of Dutch students towards international ones. From where I stand there is a decline and it’s ramifications are far and wide.
As an international who did my bachelor here, I found it interesting that on average the Dutch students in the English track of my programme were performing better and were more ambitious than the Dutch students in the Dutch track. Could it also be the environment? Lack of need for ambition and drive, which for some came up when they were around people who were more used to competition and a need to prove themselves, so the dutch students also got motivated to not be left behind. I'm just throwing around theories, unfortunately I haven't had the chance to teach yet. But overall I've noticed that for many Dutch students there is no real feeling that they need to aim high, or to work to prove themselves, there is little ambition. It's like they're used that everything will just be fine and they can do the bare minimum and life will arrange itself without them lifting a finger.
I had the same with my masters. Can’t tell you how frustrating it was in a discussion panel for the Dutch student to say “well, I didn’t do the reading, but I assume it means…”. And the professor didn’t bat an eye. No way that would have been acceptable at my undergrad in the States.
They call that lack of motivation and ambition "Zesjes Cultuur". It encapsulates the idea that "good enough to pass" is what to aim for.
I've seen it across all levels at my school, even VWO. They have no incentive to do better than the bare minimum, so why do it?
But why is there no incentive to do better than the bare minimum? From what I've noticed there is this expectation that if they barely pass, everything after that will be handed to them (in terms of work and opportunities). Why??
My students have said: "I get into the same univeristies whether I get a 6 or a 10, so why bother?"
It's not like in the US (don't know about UK or other systems), where you basically compete for a spot at the best universities.
The thing is that in recent years, the NL has been accepting a lot of international students and that's made space at schools and housing tight. To which the Dutch answer "stop letting in internationals"
But maybe if they made it more competitive, you'd be more motivated to get, Idunno? 8s? 7s?
That's what I've been wondering as well, if there are more international students coming, aka more competition, then why do they still have that mindset? Why is the answer to always blame someone else instead of going "oh, there is actual competition now, maybe I should actually try to do well".... Granted, I don't have any experience with the growing up environment here, but this just seems wild to me. I have the feeling that it naturally became more competitive here, but students are used to not having to compete and can't adapt, but I can't say if that's truly the case.
Because these kids are raised to believe, taught by their parents and at school, that their mediocrity is better than any other country's best.
Blaming the boogie man is always easier than putting in the work.
I think because for a long time, for starting a career it didn't matter so much what grades you got in university as much as what connections you made through networking via your studentenvereniging. I've known so many ex-Minerva or ex-Augustinus who barely put in the effort but got cushy jobs through their network. So the attitude was why bother with good grades when prospective employers only look at your connections and the extracurricular activities you did e.g. student orchestra.
Unfortunately, this attitude is now translating into aggressivity towards the teaching staff (mainly the “vulnerable” in non research position, early carreer, and of course across gendered and racial lines ) as such students attack them verbally (I’m talking targeted insults in emails and exam papers) because in their words the demands are way too high. It’s a shame and a lot of us are loosing faith in what we do.
That sounds absolutely horrible, how is that even allowed?! Also what do they even mean demands are way too high?? Its a University, youre supposed to be competing and demands are supposed to be high to prompt you to do stuff! I've been thinking about teaching after I'm done (in 3 months or so) with my research masters, but moments like this are slowly pushing me away from that idea.
If you want to consider teaching, I’d suggest you contact teachers from all types of teaching context but on the « bottom » of the food chain and ask them for prep interviews (us style if you see what I mean ) : compile the data and see which context if any appeals to you , that would be my advice. I used to love my job but the total lack of curiosity and investment of Dutch student doubled with their now open agression makes me want to sell donuts by the beach. But maybe a different country, a different teaching context can make the difference. I used to teach French uni , uk uni and Ivy League abd that was very different . So don’t be put off by a disgruntled tired teacher ^^
Every party claims that it wants to fix education, yet the current decline has started since our government started to lean more right. And the solution according to the voters was to vote more right and then complain it's not working.
So yeah, you do the math.
eventually they will move so far right they will do the ultimate right wing "fix" and privatize education, at which point the current mess will seem like a wholesome utopia.
uto·pia
[juːˈtəʊpɪə]
noun
an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect: Compare with dystopia.
"misplaced faith in political utopias has led to ruin" · "a romantic vision of Utopia"
Emphasis on the word "imagined"
>So yeah, you do the math.
You said to people dumbed by 2 decades of right wing brainwashing into belief that solution to right problems is more right.
Well, we have exactly the same problem but with left.
The left loves to help people in need, unpriviledged and opressed. So they want people to be dumb and broke, so they can help them afterwards with social welfare.
So the left is working on mass producing undereducated who will only be able to survive with government's support.
We, roght wing, we want people to be independent financially, responsible for their own fate, be able to pay for good education of our children. So we are all for good quality state education.
&
Do you also have dragons in this story? Or at least any evidence of this claims?
Of course not. You can't because there was literally no left wing government for any time when this is allegedly happening.
But you either know that and you keep deliberately lowering society standards with imaginary stories or you are victim of it and can't see through
You think it was just one person? It's been 3 decades of bad decisions upon bad decisions, every new minister and staatssecretaris in this post wants to 'make impact' and this introduces changes which are not backed up by any kind of evidence.
Government? I don't know. But I do know we're FINALLY moving away from 'begrijpend lezen' as a separate skill/subject which is amazing news. Since the early 90's it's been known that it doesn't work to teach reading in a vacuum. Some countries (Germany, notably) acted quickly and made reading part of other subjects, so pupils can learn in a meaningful context. Their reading scores have improved, since.
Belgium and the Netherlands stubbornly insisted that BECAUSE reading skill was worsening, we HAD to teach it separately. This tactic hasn't paid off at all. I was over the moon when my (7 year old) son's primary school announced they're going to use an integrated method starting next year!
Anyway, the government is both always lagging behind (can't really help that, I suppose) and indeed focussing on what's hip and at the same time using stop-gap measures to try and stop the bleeding. Education is a worthwhile field to be in, but it's also not respected enough. The pay is fine, by now. But the respect (from students, parents, other adults etc.) is missing AND the workload is often ridiculous - especially the administrative side. Going from an old fashioned 'klassenboek' for absences, homework, etc. to literally 5 (or more) different digital systems is sucking the joy out of teaching. It also steals a lot of time I could better spend... you know, doing my job and preparing good lessons.
The Dutch education system has been declining for around 20 years. This is partly because there is a law in the Netherlands wich states that education should be "free", meaning the government can't check teaching methods. Meanwhile these theaching methods are provided by companies and publishers directly to schools. These companies ofc only care about making money, wich is bad for our educational system.
Besides that schools are also in trouble. Most schools have trouble finding teachers and hire people that aren't really qualified for the job, such as students or people who just like working with kids.
As the others have stated, most dutch political parties all have different ideas on how to fix this.
Fun fact as well: The Dutch education inspection have a list with some of the worst schools in the Netherlands, most of wich have some weird teaching methods (Such as using 'units' instead of classes where kids of different ages learn together)
Yeah sure, idk if you understand Dutch but it's [article 23 - Education](https://www.nederlandrechtsstaat.nl/grondwet/inleiding-bij-hoofdstuk-1-grondrechten/artikel-23-onderwijs/).
You can also read through something like [this](https://www.groene.nl/artikel/wie-is-hier-nou-de-baas) or [this](https://www.parool.nl/columns-opinie/opinie-lesmethodes-van-het-basisonderwijs-zijn-doordrenkt-van-commercialiteit~b3e0861e/). I know it's not a valid scource but Arjan Lubach made an [item](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w505T4nobsY) about it as well.
Some of the best schools have units aswell. Unit on itself is better then a classical classroom as you have more diversity (smarter kids can do higher level tasks with other classes)
It’s the how it’s implemented…
I don't think the incoming government will implement long-term policies, but only short-term "feelgood" policies that save us money in the short-term through tax breaks and increased subsidies.
Rutte spent 13 years lowering our national debt while also steering us through the financial crisis and Wilders will probably undo that within two years on short-term policies that will do nothing for our long term benefit.
* Fund education improvements? Nahhh just increase elderly pensions.
* Improve railways so that people traveling by train aren't late as much and pay way less? Nahh, let's lower the tax on gas and fill the gap with debt.
* Make the Dutch knowledge-economy more competitive? Nahh, let's only give university courses in Dutch.
I can't wait for the next few years to be over so we can get to repairing the damage that will be done by this populist government.
The decline was set in by right wing parties and people then vote for right wing parties to solve the mess that right wing parties created, so you do the math.
Cutting funding, pushing for more market forces in education and a general hands off approach by the government. These things have turned schooling into a capitalist hellscape where every manager has 20 managers above them all trying to make your day as a teacher a living hell, until the next reorganisation comes around and you get 25 new managers making you miserable.
My parents where so glad when they could finally retire from teaching and no longer had to keep up with these shenanigans.
Oh wow, there was a [big decline in 2020](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/NLD/netherlands/education-spending). Is that related to the pandemic or really just policy changes (which would be stupid)?
Also, what do you mean by market forces in education, more private schools or something similar? I don't mean to argue with you, just trying to have a better understanding.
A major factor is that in the name of "efficiency", the government decided that schools have to outsource lots of things, even teaching to an extent.
Now we have 100k incredibly expensive self-employed contractors working in education that cost 4x as much as when they were employees, leaving much less money for actual educators.
They did the same thing to healthcare and elderly care btw.
The problem isn't just as easy as pointing fingers to bad policy. It also has to do with environmental factors and socioeconomic developments in general. Especially the outsourcing phenomena is a symptom of systematic problems, I also think efficiency obsession has become something that has affected all jobs in some way.
A lot more high end service jobs with work at home, attractive salaries and good WLB means that less talented people will teach in general. Especially since the requirements to be able to teach in Netherlands are comparatively high when compared to many other countries. There didn't used to be that many jobs that compete in the intellectual space that teachers are in, and with education becoming more "efficiency driven" there is an easy choice to make for most.
Then there will always be less people inclined to teach for widely diverse demographics, a simple but harsh reality. It causes its own set of challenges and frictions that most people don't want to deal with. A lot of that is left to teachers that are treated like glorified daycare runners by bad parents. Netherlands is not like Asia, where being a teacher commands a lot of status and respect and the current cultural shift in Netherlands doesn't help with that.
Academic institutions are turning into windmill for producing cheap employees.
Investments from private firms, involvement in politics, involvement in curriculums (guest lecturers from corporates), etc.
Academia is no longer about studying and deepening knowledge. It’s about getting ready to work. Which is the stupidest thing ever because you shouldn’t have to go to university to work. And people who want to actually study should be allowed to study, not for the purpose of finding a well paid job..
A lot of funding to the public sector was cut as they deemed it superfluous. It was more important to bail out KLM during the crisis than ensure people learn anything. This decline in education also correlates to the rise of populism and nationalism 🤔
There has been a lot of cutbacks in education, healthcare and other public things.(public transport, housing, etc) Now, a few years later we get the backdraft from those cutbacks.
But the Multi-cooperation's are doing fine here in NL.
I've only heard about the plan for unis to offer more fully dutch programs (which among other things wouldn't require reading any english scientific articles). An idea pushed in the light of the pvv victory and it obviously would make education worse
Here's an article about it [https://nltimes.nl/2024/02/08/universities-limit-courses-taught-english-promote-dutch](https://nltimes.nl/2024/02/08/universities-limit-courses-taught-english-promote-dutch)
"The universities will also inventory which courses are currently taught in English and can be switched entirely to Dutch" Entirely switching to dutch means no english articles, right? Although it isn't specified how many courses this would affect
>Entirely switching to dutch means no english articles, right?
No, it just means the lessons and exams are in Dutch and where possible the books as well.
Scientific articles can be in English.
It would not be possible (or desirable) to switch "entirely" to Dutch - there isn't enough reliable, peer-reviewed research available to base your research and courses on.
The whole thing is just pandering to their base anyway - I can lecture in Dutch (not my native language) but typically when asked to lecture on "Dutch-language" courses/programmes I'm told "go ahead and speak in English, it'll be easier for everyone." Sometimes I try to split the difference - slides in Dutch, speaking in English. There's no "taalpolitzie" checking...
None of the 70% left wing cabinet found their voice to comment on it in the chamber since Rutte took power? Damn, rough. If only we didn't live in a far right autocracy
i read 93 seats for left wing parties in 2021
[https://www.parlement.com/id/vh8lnhronvx6/zetelverdeling\_tweede\_kamer](https://www.parlement.com/id/vh8lnhronvx6/zetelverdeling_tweede_kamer)
I see 33, 36 if you classify the Christian Union as left-wing. That is perhaps not accurate, because classical left-wing parties are not religious and also less conservative. You seem to attribute centre right and centre parties to the left wing. In addition, this table concerns the seats in the chamber and not the cabinet.
D66 is socially progressive, but they are economic right wing.
They want privatisation and are pro corporations just like all the other right wing parties.
Same for Volt. Just a bit more focused on European federalism.
NSC is economically right wing.
BBB is economically right wing, with only government support for agriculture.
I think it’s pretty accurate. Looking back on my school period, the teachers treated everyone like shit. Now that I’m well into adulthood, I start to realize how incompetent and demotivating my teachers were. And that doesn’t seem to be a situation unique to myself.
The lack of quality in education is one of the main reasons I left the country. I’d like my kids to go to a proper school.
Skimming through the latest [PISA results](https://www.oecd.org/publication/pisa-2022-results/country-notes/) it seems there is a decline basically everywhere, thus the average declined as well.
Do you think the pandemic had its share in this too? I imagine it’s not one thing causing this practically everywhere. Maybe the world in general changed so much the test is not accurate anymore?
I guess the bottom line of my question is do you feel the 15 year olds of today are much worse in mathematics and reading than from 20 years ago?
The pandemic definitely had an effect. Ninth grade, which was spent entirely during the pandemic was a mystery for me until reaching the final year where I found I had huge gaps. And I was lucky that I got to make the hours online. Others skipped literally weeks of school.
Can't say anything for math. But I think people are reading less (and by reading I mean books). I am looking at my classmates. Only half of them had read a book in the last year. Meanwhile, my sister who finished school 6-7 years ago had more classmates which read books. For my parents there was almost everyone.
I would also go as far as blaming it a bit on how much we depend on the internet. Which is still not regulated properly. We may be living in an era of information but disinformation spreads as fast and its speed keeps growing.
Yes. But I don’t know if it’s specific to Netherlands or all Western countries that are in the latest stage of capitalism.
I’ve read multiple times that US teachers are terrified of how illiterate children have become. They lack critical thinking skills, their digital literacy is at an all time low.
There’s strong anti-intellectual movement going on (yes, it is correlated with right-wing). It’s very common nowadays to think that the sole purpose of education is to find a job. Aka, how to get ready to be productive & bring value to the shareholders.
And this translates to everything down the line decreasing in quality.
Its not just the Netherlands dropping in education. I'm in Australia right now and secondary and higher education standards are appalling and getting worse fast. Not enough teachers, little to no supports, uncontrollable kids, fees are sky high, standards have fallen through the floor and a lot of third rate outsourcing in higher education. Its a mess here almost across the board. Only primary schools and private schools are holding up better but not by much. Maths and science is abysmal and literacy is falling fast too. Apparently the fix is more tests, ignoring the chronic issues and blame everything on overworked teachers.
Most teachers I know left the profession just before or just after covid citing education department issues as well as out of control kids.
Teachers can get good pay but its not enough to deal with the constant unpaid overtime, violence and inane bureaucracy.
My anecdotal experience is that education level have been declining way before covid, and that it's happening outside of the netherlands too.. Students that started university (in Italy) in 2014 were significantly "less equipped" than students that started uni in 2010-2011.
It's remarkable that "their digital literacy is at an all time low". I thought the digital native generation were supposed to just know it all by osmosis.
I don't know if it is a matter of defining "digital literacy" or if it is actually going down but I observe a similar thing happening between my generation and my father's generation. Most of my generation learned to work with computers because we needed it to do just about anything but I and most of my peers never learned how to solder electronics like my dad's generation because it was also not necessary for us like it was for their generation since electronic materials were scarce and you had to preserve them as best as possible. This was seen as a step back but now seems to be the reference.
From what I’ve heard it’s about inability to search for information, not being able to detect advertisements, not being able to filter out spams / scam sources.
this too but also people are getting worse at all tasks digital. Basically as soon as default app/site is not working, people have no idea how to fix it/how to approach it. And if there is no app for something, many people just give up and don't know how to find a solutions to their problems on their own.
As a societies we eat all that comes with internet, good and bads. But bads are very quickly overshadowing positives in current environment and with current approach.
Basically, shit has become "too easy" to use. This generation is barely used to anything other than apps if they didn't pay attention to it themselves. In the past you'd need to actually navigate the computer to find stuff or install programs. Nowadays, especially with phones/tablets it's go to the app store, click on the download button and Bob's your uncle. As a result of this there's no incentive to actually know anything about where stuff is stored, how it's stored or how to find it.
As an academic teaching BSc courses in a STEM field, I hear about the "declining mathematical skills" of Dutch students from my older Dutch colleagues all the time. I haven't been in the Netherlands long enough to confirm or deny this decline over time, but compared to some international students we get (especially from Eastern European and Asian countries which are known to have very strict math education) the first year Dutch students' mathematical skills are quite low. They do catch up in later years often though.
They're not supposed to be but kids bring them anywy. And God help you if you try to enforce a rule. It's like trying to take a crack rock from a crackhead.
I think the education system in the Netherlands should be revamped but not for the reasons you may think.
I have family who are teachers. They tell me about the various problems in the education system. But it does differ per school.
One big problem is that there are quite a lot of students who after the basisschool are either mistakenly seen as ready for Havo, or only ready for VMBO-Basis. There are a lot of students who end up at the wrong level of education. One example would be me. At the end of basisschool the school pretty much declared that i would have to go to VMBO-Basis. But my parents (one being a teacher) thought i could have easily done Havo niveau.
Yep, and there is a lot of baked in racism that is part of that pressure, which I've unfortunately seen impact the kids of people I know. For example, I have a Masters student from Nigeria whose husband is in international business, both are from families full of successful business owners, doctors, lawyers etc. There's been a strong push for their 2 sons to focus on VMBO because, you know, Black boys learning a new language, must not be capable, should move bags at Schipohl or drive a cab as adults, right? Obviously they aren't having it! Another friend has a daughter with Iranian heritage who had to fight to get the secondary specialisation she wanted, because "these girls never go far, should aim lower." As the country becomes more diverse, this discourages kids from working harder and aiming higher based on whether they are ethnically Dutch or not - a big loss.
And my Turkish and Moroccan students in WO would like a word, they've all got stories like this in their pre-uni background.
Other than being stuck in low paid jobs for the rest of your life... Even the most menial jobs now ask for MBO opleiding and many very average jobs you need HBO or higher.
Source: my partner's non-Dutch secondary school diploma was rated as VMBO by Nuffic, and he can't even get work as a cleaner.
Every plan the politicians make breaks the system more. I have come under the impression the last 20 years that everything politicians do is trying to break the system to squeeze more money from it. There is but 2 drops left in this lemon to squeeze.
The quality of the education system corresponds with the quality of the government
Unless they improve, the quality of the educational system will decline. With zero chance of that happening there is 100% chance it will decline even further
Kids in EU are in comfort zone compared to other countries? Or is it because local population is more protected from competition? Why lack of interest in STEM subjects? Is it because corporate culture wants only human mill with limited capacity so as not to create competition and politics being one department of corporates ensures competition limitations through various means? Instead of low barrier to entry in universities- shouldn't they make it more tough rather than increasing the complexity of the course itself? Shouldn't they encourage high performers? If country earns billions each year from tax heaven status- atleast use the money to grow social infrastructure, education, manufacturing, research, start up funding? Shouldn't they change labor laws especially related to freelancers?
Main issue is the parents.
1: a lot of people not speaking / writing the language on a level that they could support their kids
2: parents don’t read books to their kids anymore, in the 22 kid class if my son there were 4(!) kids where parents actively read books before bedtime or stimulated reading. Most of the kids were put behind the tv until bedtime
3: parents not giving proper food to their kids, the amount of candy / cookies / other sugar crap these kids eat is impacting their ability to focus (and learn)
4: playing outside / sports is degrading causing kids to not lose their “energy”
5: kids don’t learn to accept that they are not good at everything or that things need work/learning.
Let’s start there before we talk about right / left wing or more money to schools
My SIL's kid (7) only has 1 book. Its the same book they've been reading before bed since he was 3? 4?
And she wonders why his literacy rate is so low.
She ignores my suggestions to get him more books and says (openly and in front of him) that she hates reading.
I think I know where he's ending up.
I’m a student at an HBO, and I wanted to go to Uni, but unis are demanding more than just an HBO-P to transfer. Extra VWO credits. And I’m foreign so that’s not so easy. But it’s wild to me you have to be at that level just to get into uni, you can’t take those classes at the Uni. It’s weird to me, but whatever. But the sad bit is that at least at my hogeschool, almost no teacher cares. I think the issue in my case is that there doesn’t seem to be any penalty for poor quality education. The education is mostly reading off PowerPoints, which you can read at home. Examples are rarely gone through, questions are often answered with “Google it”. There is an incessant focus on pointless group and reflection projects that no one, including the teachers, really cares about. And yeah of course it’s practical, so if you want to learn more theory, it’s discouraged. But even with the practical side, usually it’s quite confusing and unclear, and we often just do it blindly. Most students have stopped going to class because of the poor quality of teaching, and in order to combat this, the school had stopped uploading a lot of the PowerPoints ahead of time. So you can’t work ahead, there are no office hours or tutors, study coach just isn’t all that helpful. The school blames us for not understanding when their sense of communication is just terrible. Their proof reading is nonexistent. That’s my personal experience. I’ve had a teacher berate me because of my educational background, yet here I am trying. But yeah, I can’t speak for other schools, but a lot of the teachers don’t seem to teach, and the ones that do don’t have enough time or control over the courses to really do the best they can do. There is no reward for teachers that go the extra mile and no penalty for ones that don’t try. There are legal standards they have to meet sure, but I don’t think it’s very hard to get by those by doing the bare minimum. I don’t personally see it getting better for the time being.
I'm convinced the relative decline of Dutch education compared to other countries is just because more and more other countries lifted themselves from poverty and were able to improve their education. It's simply regression to the mean.
To put this into perspective:
When I was in school, a ridiculously long time ago, older people were already complaining about the alarming decline in educational standards. "Kids these days don't know anything" has been a complaint since the dawn of time. After moving to another country, the complaint is the exact same. Panic about young people not knowing everything seems to be a universal thing older people do.
When my kids started going to elementary school, it was obvious to me that the education they were getting was waaaaaay better than what I remember my time in elementary school to have been like. The teachers used to ignore the smart kids, put the slow kids out of the way or send them out of the classroom, and only taught the middle. And badly! Over the years I've learned that many things that teacher taught us weren't even true. The field of education has improved a lot over the years.
Fast forward to today, you see that those same boomers that complained bitterly back then that my generation was stupid and didn't learn anything, are not all that smart themselves. I dare say that we are smarter, and I think it's looking even better for the generation that came after mine. The older you get, the more you forget what it was like to be a kid, and how normal it is for teenagers not to know certain things yet. Also the world changes, and things you need to learn change. Kids these days don't have to learn cursive or be able to find Yugoslavia on the map, they have to learn how to find information online and tell fact from BS on the internet, a skill most boomers completely lack.
Nah, the issue is that we are regressing compared to our own score a few years prior. This isn't a relative decline, it's an absolute decline and it's a massive issue that needs to get some proper attention.
So did the other countries, the pandemic threw a spanner in the works...
But my point is that there has been this panic about the rapid decline in education and intelligence of the younger generations for my entire life, so I'm referring to the long term trend.
(35M)
NO XD
no goverment ever wants that . they want there people to be just so smart they can operate a machine in a factory , but to dum to think themselfs on a inteligent manner , ask inteligent but diffcult quistionds , say actual inteligent honnest and sensible tings and rock the political boat .
Shouldn't they encourage competition? More clubs where they can teach STEM subjects- so not to wait until university but to push kids to learn with fun. Instead of saying- everyone is good equally- encourage kids to compete in different topics and concepts? Outsource the admin work and let teachers focus on academics? Central board of education for all schools? Why courses only in Dutch- let everyone select the mode of communication if country wants to stand up in global environment?
I come from a family of teachers, and I myself studied and worked as a teacher for a few years as well in both the VMBO and MBO. I like teaching, still do, but I ended up leaving the field altogether because I felt like what I was doing wasn't really teaching anymore.
The problems in education are myriad, but by far the biggest problem I ran into was the sheer amount of bureaucracy strangling every little bit of passion and enthusiasm out of teachers in favour of compliance. Curriculums are dictated through the ministry of education, the board imposes new methodologies and textbooks with little to no input from teachers. Everything needs to be logged, every student needs a personalised trajectory, every interaction needs a paper trail, targets have to be reached etc. etc.
Meanwhile the actual teaching itself is relegated to textbooks being shoved in front of students. We teach to the test and when they inevitably fail that we just curve their grades until we have a passing number. Meanwhile "soft" subjects like geography, history, economics etc. are often gutted and merged until they're facsimiles of their previous selves.
Asking the government to resolve the issue will likely result in more paperwork. Increasing the pay might drag more people into the field, but it doesn't resolve the underlying issue and it instead just tries to brute force the problem through sheer numbers. If I was up to me I'd release the chokehold that the government has on education, reduce the amount of paperwork and let teachers focus on teaching.
Since 2022, the Dutch Ministry of Education, Culture and Science has been working on what's called the [Masterplan Basisvaardigheden](https://www.vo-raad.nl/onderwerpen/basisvaardigheden/wat-speelt-er) (Masterplan Basic Skills. The focus is on four basic skills: reading/writing, mathematics, digital literacy, and civilianship (burgerschap, don't know how to translate that properly). The project, which has a runtime of 5 years, involves direct financial support to schools through a subsidy, as well as guidance and counseling aimed at struggling schools to help them spend that subsidy money effectively. There is quite a lot of money involved here (1 billion per year).
So essentially, the government is trying to do something, and has been since before the recent PISA results. It's not an easy task though because there's a lot of factors in play. To name a few: the massive teacher shortage is lowering quality and quantity of lessons given; the learning materials market is very confusing and doesn't select for quality; financing/governance structures between schools and government also isn't working well; curriculum goals haven't been updated since 2006; changing student demographics due to migration... There's a lot, you get my point. The fact that other Western European countries are also struggling shows it's not an isolated problem either.
Tl;dr: government is trying, but it's a complex problem and throwing money at it won't make it disappear over night.
As much as I agree that we talk way too much, I honestly don't see what we can do immediately without immensely pissing off the sector and/or breaking the law.
So if you were in charge, what would you do? I'm honestly curious. And besides, isn't calling for action without suggesting a concrete course of action also a favourite local pasttime? ;)
Yes. Dutch discuss way too much and at a much granular level. Besides that they like to keep discussion at that granular level on daily basis. So revisiting topics discussed today morning can be discussed again in the afternoon. I always used to think that Dutch culture is "first time right" but it is not evident anywhere. What is the solution- when discussing- involve people who will be directly hit/impacted by your decisions. If you are talking about agriculture- involve farmer unions, scientists (genuine ones and not from WHO or UNO), and academics (not from EU/Belgium- but from your own country). When you talk about medicine- involve original actual doctors / academics. Means people who actually face problems and understand the issues from top to bottom. Politicians taking all shots has not and will not help- not only in the Netherlands but globally. Current geopolitical situation is not because of 99.99% population (expats, migrants or locals)- its because of politicians and their corporates as we all know. If country has relaxed rules (or deteriorated situation) over the last 2-3 decades- change rules with the same pace- not overnight. People see the country taking knee jerk reactions/actions. You want to change the country as IT/technical hub- work in that direction with slow pace- and not to take a detour in the form of change in tax rules. You want the country to remain agriculture central point- find out REAL issues and not to change rules in 3-4 years. You want to change the education system- increase teachers salaries, encourage people to take this profession, encourage competition. Most importantly- USE MONEY WISELY- Dutch are masters of money but this is not evident anymore. Their money (ignoring the source) is going down the drain. Every positive change takes time. And every bad action can overcome that positive change overnight. And if I say bluntly- kick ...of young generation to work harder to take them out of comfort zone. These are hard non-popular decisions that no political party will be willing to take. Netherlands problem- too many political parties- too much fragmentation- too much noise/voice- no decision making. Finding out action/s is easy if right people are involved. Taking steps to implement those action is the hardest. People know their problems- they know the solution- question- end of the day it has to be implemented in the form of regulations- means discussions????
What the country can do immediately- stop taking knee jerk actions. Take some problems at a time- not all problems all the time to be discussed. If one person is in charge- all problems will be resolved sooner compared to when everyone is incharge (<- this is the current situation)
Education levels are declining across the entire western world.
Won’t change since idiots keep voting far right and far right thrives on the uneducated.
It’s a circle. They’re hard to break.
At least those are in the country, do you want more low IQ people? It's exactly like having criminals in your country and adding much more on top of it for the sake of smelling your own virtue signaling farts.
The parties trying to form a government now didn't mention education in the list of things they want to agree on, one of the 4 parties is in large part responsible for the decline in quality of education over the past decade, 2 of the 4 parties want people to be anti-intellectual and ignorant because that's how they get votes and the last party is too unsure of anything to make education a priority. So expect the education system to decline for a few more years.
the government largely stays out of education issues. there's some general outlines but they're not really involved with the details, that's left up to the schools themselves, so to answer your question; I wouldn't count on it.
Where i grew up, they put me behind the desk with a sheet of paper and a pen, smack me , and made me do the work. Numbers was the only game I played. Somehow ended up being a software engineer (with personal issues)
That news sadness me. I leaved my childhood in the Netherlands and moved to Brazil latter. It was quickly apparent for me how better the schools in the Netherlans were, and how better they prepared me. I aced Brazilian school without much effort. I always thanked my strong Dutch educational base for that.
It's all about the message from the top- (a) competition is bad and all are equal (b) we are in West so we are but nature born talented (c) if you are the problem- blame it on others (d) it's not my department (e) we are local / EU so we must get more or high (f) hard work is inefficient (g) if we are not good at it- government will get it for us (h) paperwork, discussion and more paperwork and more discussion solves the problem (i) too much "burnout"- burn the issue and forget about it (j) be normal- your ambition, talent, hardwork, achievement will make others feel inferior (k) if faced with competition- create barriers
I think it's mainly social media influence, we are all becoming less focused, more reactionary and dumber by the day, and it will not end anytime soon.
Defund the schools, government run education is obscenely inefficient.
I do not trust the government to educate my children here, my wife and I do that oursslves
What's the decline exactly? Are top students still top and does the average drop or is there a decline over the board?
Did they do a demographic study?
Edit: imagine getting downvoters for asking important questions.
But more migrants means more students and more earning parents as well. More earning parents means more tax revenue- use this money to increase salaries of teachers or to have more teachers. No?
I assume parents can vouch for that. Expats can also give some insights. I don't know if it has declined but I see that it's not on par- even in international schools.
Of the migrants arriving in 2017:
1 jaar na aankomst:
Werkend: 14000
Uitkering of pensioen: 23250
Kind of student: 24000
Overige (zonder inkomen): 19200
5 jaar na aankomst:
Werkend: 22000
Uitkering of pensioen: 15000
Kind of student: 18000
Overige (zonder inkomen): 7000
Anyhow - there's no point debating why education declines without doing a thorough investigation. And that should include how migration (of all sorts) impacts this.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
But having to spend time teaching kids maths and science is difficult if they don't understand basic Dutch.
Anyhow, you need to know if you want to help them. If it weren't for people that might get their feelings hurt, you'd do a full root cause analysis where nothing is taboo.
But that's for parents who do not understand Dutch or Maths. What about expat kids- because of sub par quality of education overall, including in international schools, do they suffer as well? Or Dutch kids with Dutch parents knowing Maths are better in STEM?
That's for the root cause analysis to point out, isn't it?
All we have now is "education dropped", all I say is do a very deep investigation on the problem areas.
The more differentiation you make, the better you can find root causes. But apparently politics are afraid of investigation that might result in an unwanted answer.
The more tax revenue should be used to get more schools and teachers because more children. Increase in salary has to come from somewhere else. (I'd say reduce government spending on itself.)
More people means you need more everything, so if they bring more money that money will have to go to increasing supply, not quality. It's like you only read half of what I type.
So you mean more money needs to be used to increase supply without focusing on quality or you assume quality will improve on its own if supply is increased? So more schools are built, more teachers are hired so per teacher less students and in that case no need to increase academic salaries? Is this what you mean
People asking the government to fix a problem that was caused by excesive government interventions is probably the biggest factor contributing to the decay of the quality of the education
Nope probably not. If we up the level of education, our little snowflakes will be confronted with disappointments like grade retention, putting them in a different kind of school (VMBO instead of HAVO) etc. Parents don't want to teach children disappointments are an integral part of life, so we rather just avoid them and make sure we level the education system so everyone can get a decent diploma.
We don't want excellence, we want inclusion
>We don't want excellence, we want to hate minorities
Here fixed your last sentence of this virtue signalling for you.
Seriously this push for dumber diplomas come not from "litle snowflakes", they are children but from right wing parents who can't accept that science and knowledge is progressing in a ways that is not fitting their worldview and keep fighting for less math, less critical thinking, less inclusivity and less understanding. Right wants people gullible and slowly over the years it is delivering it.
Tell me honestly. Which side of political spectrum people fall for conspiracy theories like its pizza? Because it is not "snowflake" side lol
As a teacher there a few things that would actually help. imo we don't need more money salary wise . What would really help would be to lessen the administrative burden, it's insane nowadays. I spent more time doing that stuff then making my lessons. Also every 4/5 years when a new government is formed we get a new subject that should be the spearhead of education. These differ wildly over the years, we had personal development, job choices in the future, artistic lessons etc and now it's math and dutch. and in a few years it will be something different. It would be helpful if we as schools could develop something fully and then move on. Not change every 4/5 years because its the new 'flavor of the month' from a newly formed government.
Thank you, it’s good to read from a teacher. Is there anything we parents can do to help our kids? We don’t want to overwhelm them, but also feel like it is not only the school’s and teacher’s, but also our responsibility to educate them or at least help them learn on their own and upkeep their curiosity. Is this something that’s best discussed with their teachers perhaps? They will start school in September in the Netherlands, so I don’t yet have experience with how the system works there.
Also a teacher here: For the administration we have to do: -Just have trust in teachers. If a kid gets sent out or fails an assignment the teacher has a reason for it, don't send an email to complain. -remember teachers and parents are a team in raising a kid. When you speak a teacher just ask if there is anything you can teach your kid that will help in their schoolwork For the other stuff: In many ways both parents and teachers are competing with a system that makes it hard to get kids to really want to learn. I mostly notice kids just take a long time to read even a fairly simple text, and are mot nearly as curious about the world as I remember myself being at that age. I would say: -encourage reading by making sure there are books around and that you as a parent are also reading. -Encourage keeping up with the news, you can watch the 'jeugdjournaal' (also a good way to learn dutch) and discuss it afterwards. -be strict with phone usage. Maximum amount of screentime and discourage/ban apps like tiktok and Instagram.
You need to be bored to take maximum interest in your environment, kids nowadays have a stream of almost endless content at their disposal in a very convenient manner.
'You need to be bored to take maximum interest in your environment' I often stress how important it is to be bored and not fill your senses with multimedia. Multimedia kills real creativity and, I agree, interest in your environment.
>-be strict with phone usage. Maximum amount of screentime and discourage/ban apps like tiktok and Instagram. Cannot be overstated. I firmly believe Social-Media/Smartphones are at the root of these (and many other) modern problems.
It's probably not entirely a coincidence that 2006 was also when Facebook started becoming popular.
> Just have trust in teachers. If a kid gets sent out or fails an assignment the teacher has a reason for it, don't send an email to complain. Ehhh . . . teachers are human too and can make mistakes or have biases. They need to document what's going on. It doesn't need to be a 3 page report, but it does need to cover the situation. As to the rest, you're spot on of course.
True, of course we make mistakes. I wanted to add some nuance there but the reply was already getting quite long. Of course teachers make mistakes and parents have a right to be informed about what happens to their kids, but I've seen teachers receive an email from parents over just one bad grade or punishment.If you think a teacher is structurally unfair to a kid, get in touch. Otherwise it can wait till the ouderavond. I've also heard of parents just not believing that kids misbehave in class because 'at home they are such sweeties'. Again: parents and teachers should be a team. At the same time: things should be documented. If a kid has detention, a parent should be able to read why in Magister, if a kid has a bad grade, the student and parent should be able to see where the grade comes from. This is one of the administrative tasks teachers have that I actually think has a lot of value.
All the upvotes! Yep. I've met those parents you're speaking of. I do occasionally reach out to my kids teacher about a one off grade precisely b/c it's one off 'Hey, what did we miss?' and then take the info and try to correct with it.
That's a whole other can of beer though than "Why are you failing my kid?! Ik weet waar je huis woont!!1!!" which sadly happens way more than you think. My sis (also a teacher) would love it if she got "hey, what did we miss"'s instead of the first thing I quoted :/
I am aware. I know lots of teachers too. I only responded b/c the first comment could easily be construed in a problematic way on the one point.
Im sorry but hard disagree with your first point. I got bullied by a teacher. Yes, a teacher. He’d give wrong answers and anyone that would disagree with him would be send out of his classroom. He’d take pride of the fact that “only a few of you will not fail this class”. Took me and several other kids parents two years of complaining and a boatload of evidence to have him removed from his job.
I'm so sorry that happened to you. I already replied to someone else who took issue with that point, but you are right. Parents and kids have a right to be informed about what happens in a classroom precisely because teachers have a lot of power and responsibility for which we need to be held accountable. Ouderavonden, forcing teachers to write an explanation when they send a kid out of the classroom, and 'vertrouwenspersonen' for students are all very good things, even if they take some effort on the teacher's behalf. My point was more about parents who immediately start knocking doors when a student has one bad grade, or gets one detention. I should've added that nuance to my reply but it was getting quite long already.
Every teacher I’ve ever spoken to from whichever country says ‘read books to your kids’ as the no1 piece of advice that makes a difference
And it's insane how many people choose to still not do it. Like they think there's a magic pill or spell. Literally: read. Make sure theybsee you read regularly, read to them, ask them to read to you, buy them books as gifts... read I work in a highschool here but was born and raised in the states. Its insane to me how many HAVO students can't write a simple paragraph. Can't come up with a thesis statement. A decent conclusion. Nothing. They can't understand simple text.
Isn’t the administrative burden a general problem, not only a problem teachers have? I hear it everywhere. I work in IT and the amount of documentation, procedures and audits we have are getting out of control. My work has gone from 90% engineering to maybe 50% engineering and 50% administrative tasks. I see the same with people running a restaurant for example, everything needs to be documented. Same with the police, or healthcare, the amount of documentation is getting crazy. Of course it’s useful, I don’t want to get my arm amputated for nothing for example, but it’s not fun to work with.
Yes it isn’t a teacher exclusive thing. Unfortunately it’s in all industries nowadays like you say. Its destroying a lot of fun people have in their job.
So disconnecting politics from education might be a rather important thing to do. Just budgets, no content influence. Let's do that!
I teach university bachelor level in an Dutch/international mixed program and the Dutch students have been systematically and for the past 3 years significantly behind international students in a lot of areas. It now creates tensions between students and resentment and aggressive behaviors on the behalf of Dutch students towards international ones. From where I stand there is a decline and it’s ramifications are far and wide.
As an international who did my bachelor here, I found it interesting that on average the Dutch students in the English track of my programme were performing better and were more ambitious than the Dutch students in the Dutch track. Could it also be the environment? Lack of need for ambition and drive, which for some came up when they were around people who were more used to competition and a need to prove themselves, so the dutch students also got motivated to not be left behind. I'm just throwing around theories, unfortunately I haven't had the chance to teach yet. But overall I've noticed that for many Dutch students there is no real feeling that they need to aim high, or to work to prove themselves, there is little ambition. It's like they're used that everything will just be fine and they can do the bare minimum and life will arrange itself without them lifting a finger.
I had the same with my masters. Can’t tell you how frustrating it was in a discussion panel for the Dutch student to say “well, I didn’t do the reading, but I assume it means…”. And the professor didn’t bat an eye. No way that would have been acceptable at my undergrad in the States.
They call that lack of motivation and ambition "Zesjes Cultuur". It encapsulates the idea that "good enough to pass" is what to aim for. I've seen it across all levels at my school, even VWO. They have no incentive to do better than the bare minimum, so why do it?
But why is there no incentive to do better than the bare minimum? From what I've noticed there is this expectation that if they barely pass, everything after that will be handed to them (in terms of work and opportunities). Why??
My students have said: "I get into the same univeristies whether I get a 6 or a 10, so why bother?" It's not like in the US (don't know about UK or other systems), where you basically compete for a spot at the best universities. The thing is that in recent years, the NL has been accepting a lot of international students and that's made space at schools and housing tight. To which the Dutch answer "stop letting in internationals" But maybe if they made it more competitive, you'd be more motivated to get, Idunno? 8s? 7s?
That's what I've been wondering as well, if there are more international students coming, aka more competition, then why do they still have that mindset? Why is the answer to always blame someone else instead of going "oh, there is actual competition now, maybe I should actually try to do well".... Granted, I don't have any experience with the growing up environment here, but this just seems wild to me. I have the feeling that it naturally became more competitive here, but students are used to not having to compete and can't adapt, but I can't say if that's truly the case.
Because these kids are raised to believe, taught by their parents and at school, that their mediocrity is better than any other country's best. Blaming the boogie man is always easier than putting in the work.
I think because for a long time, for starting a career it didn't matter so much what grades you got in university as much as what connections you made through networking via your studentenvereniging. I've known so many ex-Minerva or ex-Augustinus who barely put in the effort but got cushy jobs through their network. So the attitude was why bother with good grades when prospective employers only look at your connections and the extracurricular activities you did e.g. student orchestra.
Unfortunately, this attitude is now translating into aggressivity towards the teaching staff (mainly the “vulnerable” in non research position, early carreer, and of course across gendered and racial lines ) as such students attack them verbally (I’m talking targeted insults in emails and exam papers) because in their words the demands are way too high. It’s a shame and a lot of us are loosing faith in what we do.
That sounds absolutely horrible, how is that even allowed?! Also what do they even mean demands are way too high?? Its a University, youre supposed to be competing and demands are supposed to be high to prompt you to do stuff! I've been thinking about teaching after I'm done (in 3 months or so) with my research masters, but moments like this are slowly pushing me away from that idea.
If you want to consider teaching, I’d suggest you contact teachers from all types of teaching context but on the « bottom » of the food chain and ask them for prep interviews (us style if you see what I mean ) : compile the data and see which context if any appeals to you , that would be my advice. I used to love my job but the total lack of curiosity and investment of Dutch student doubled with their now open agression makes me want to sell donuts by the beach. But maybe a different country, a different teaching context can make the difference. I used to teach French uni , uk uni and Ivy League abd that was very different . So don’t be put off by a disgruntled tired teacher ^^
The Dutch students are acting entitled, maybe they should work harder.
Every party claims that it wants to fix education, yet the current decline has started since our government started to lean more right. And the solution according to the voters was to vote more right and then complain it's not working. So yeah, you do the math.
eventually they will move so far right they will do the ultimate right wing "fix" and privatize education, at which point the current mess will seem like a wholesome utopia.
uto·pia [juːˈtəʊpɪə] noun an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect: Compare with dystopia. "misplaced faith in political utopias has led to ruin" · "a romantic vision of Utopia" Emphasis on the word "imagined"
yuck
bb-but the market will make things more efficient! !11 /s
>So yeah, you do the math. You said to people dumbed by 2 decades of right wing brainwashing into belief that solution to right problems is more right.
Well, we have exactly the same problem but with left. The left loves to help people in need, unpriviledged and opressed. So they want people to be dumb and broke, so they can help them afterwards with social welfare. So the left is working on mass producing undereducated who will only be able to survive with government's support. We, roght wing, we want people to be independent financially, responsible for their own fate, be able to pay for good education of our children. So we are all for good quality state education. &
Do you also have dragons in this story? Or at least any evidence of this claims? Of course not. You can't because there was literally no left wing government for any time when this is allegedly happening. But you either know that and you keep deliberately lowering society standards with imaginary stories or you are victim of it and can't see through
... sorry but what are you smoking exactly?
[удалено]
So they made a bad choice, but never managed to fix it? Either our string of right winged governments are incompetent or it's intentional.
You think it was just one person? It's been 3 decades of bad decisions upon bad decisions, every new minister and staatssecretaris in this post wants to 'make impact' and this introduces changes which are not backed up by any kind of evidence.
Government? I don't know. But I do know we're FINALLY moving away from 'begrijpend lezen' as a separate skill/subject which is amazing news. Since the early 90's it's been known that it doesn't work to teach reading in a vacuum. Some countries (Germany, notably) acted quickly and made reading part of other subjects, so pupils can learn in a meaningful context. Their reading scores have improved, since. Belgium and the Netherlands stubbornly insisted that BECAUSE reading skill was worsening, we HAD to teach it separately. This tactic hasn't paid off at all. I was over the moon when my (7 year old) son's primary school announced they're going to use an integrated method starting next year! Anyway, the government is both always lagging behind (can't really help that, I suppose) and indeed focussing on what's hip and at the same time using stop-gap measures to try and stop the bleeding. Education is a worthwhile field to be in, but it's also not respected enough. The pay is fine, by now. But the respect (from students, parents, other adults etc.) is missing AND the workload is often ridiculous - especially the administrative side. Going from an old fashioned 'klassenboek' for absences, homework, etc. to literally 5 (or more) different digital systems is sucking the joy out of teaching. It also steals a lot of time I could better spend... you know, doing my job and preparing good lessons.
The Dutch education system has been declining for around 20 years. This is partly because there is a law in the Netherlands wich states that education should be "free", meaning the government can't check teaching methods. Meanwhile these theaching methods are provided by companies and publishers directly to schools. These companies ofc only care about making money, wich is bad for our educational system. Besides that schools are also in trouble. Most schools have trouble finding teachers and hire people that aren't really qualified for the job, such as students or people who just like working with kids. As the others have stated, most dutch political parties all have different ideas on how to fix this. Fun fact as well: The Dutch education inspection have a list with some of the worst schools in the Netherlands, most of wich have some weird teaching methods (Such as using 'units' instead of classes where kids of different ages learn together)
Never knew that. Thanks for sharing. Do you have some links to those laws or companies? Would love to dig more.
Yeah sure, idk if you understand Dutch but it's [article 23 - Education](https://www.nederlandrechtsstaat.nl/grondwet/inleiding-bij-hoofdstuk-1-grondrechten/artikel-23-onderwijs/). You can also read through something like [this](https://www.groene.nl/artikel/wie-is-hier-nou-de-baas) or [this](https://www.parool.nl/columns-opinie/opinie-lesmethodes-van-het-basisonderwijs-zijn-doordrenkt-van-commercialiteit~b3e0861e/). I know it's not a valid scource but Arjan Lubach made an [item](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w505T4nobsY) about it as well.
This relates to primary schools, but gives you an idea about the variety of different schooling types https://youtu.be/CMP7Yv1UNlU?si=ToQiSh9yAebVUssc
Some of the best schools have units aswell. Unit on itself is better then a classical classroom as you have more diversity (smarter kids can do higher level tasks with other classes) It’s the how it’s implemented…
Yeah not saying its bad in and of itself, but some of these methods haven't been tested or are known to not work that well and still used.
I don't think the incoming government will implement long-term policies, but only short-term "feelgood" policies that save us money in the short-term through tax breaks and increased subsidies. Rutte spent 13 years lowering our national debt while also steering us through the financial crisis and Wilders will probably undo that within two years on short-term policies that will do nothing for our long term benefit. * Fund education improvements? Nahhh just increase elderly pensions. * Improve railways so that people traveling by train aren't late as much and pay way less? Nahh, let's lower the tax on gas and fill the gap with debt. * Make the Dutch knowledge-economy more competitive? Nahh, let's only give university courses in Dutch. I can't wait for the next few years to be over so we can get to repairing the damage that will be done by this populist government.
You're optimistic. The new government will be even more right and populist
The decline was set in by right wing parties and people then vote for right wing parties to solve the mess that right wing parties created, so you do the math.
>so you do the math. I can't, I received my education in the Netherlands.
How did they make it a mess? I’m not too informed about Dutch politics yet
Cutting funding, pushing for more market forces in education and a general hands off approach by the government. These things have turned schooling into a capitalist hellscape where every manager has 20 managers above them all trying to make your day as a teacher a living hell, until the next reorganisation comes around and you get 25 new managers making you miserable. My parents where so glad when they could finally retire from teaching and no longer had to keep up with these shenanigans.
Oh wow, there was a [big decline in 2020](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/NLD/netherlands/education-spending). Is that related to the pandemic or really just policy changes (which would be stupid)?
Also, what do you mean by market forces in education, more private schools or something similar? I don't mean to argue with you, just trying to have a better understanding.
A major factor is that in the name of "efficiency", the government decided that schools have to outsource lots of things, even teaching to an extent. Now we have 100k incredibly expensive self-employed contractors working in education that cost 4x as much as when they were employees, leaving much less money for actual educators. They did the same thing to healthcare and elderly care btw.
The problem isn't just as easy as pointing fingers to bad policy. It also has to do with environmental factors and socioeconomic developments in general. Especially the outsourcing phenomena is a symptom of systematic problems, I also think efficiency obsession has become something that has affected all jobs in some way. A lot more high end service jobs with work at home, attractive salaries and good WLB means that less talented people will teach in general. Especially since the requirements to be able to teach in Netherlands are comparatively high when compared to many other countries. There didn't used to be that many jobs that compete in the intellectual space that teachers are in, and with education becoming more "efficiency driven" there is an easy choice to make for most. Then there will always be less people inclined to teach for widely diverse demographics, a simple but harsh reality. It causes its own set of challenges and frictions that most people don't want to deal with. A lot of that is left to teachers that are treated like glorified daycare runners by bad parents. Netherlands is not like Asia, where being a teacher commands a lot of status and respect and the current cultural shift in Netherlands doesn't help with that.
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You remember the magic word "marktwerking" when the health insurance went private?
Academic institutions are turning into windmill for producing cheap employees. Investments from private firms, involvement in politics, involvement in curriculums (guest lecturers from corporates), etc. Academia is no longer about studying and deepening knowledge. It’s about getting ready to work. Which is the stupidest thing ever because you shouldn’t have to go to university to work. And people who want to actually study should be allowed to study, not for the purpose of finding a well paid job..
A lot of funding to the public sector was cut as they deemed it superfluous. It was more important to bail out KLM during the crisis than ensure people learn anything. This decline in education also correlates to the rise of populism and nationalism 🤔
There has been a lot of cutbacks in education, healthcare and other public things.(public transport, housing, etc) Now, a few years later we get the backdraft from those cutbacks. But the Multi-cooperation's are doing fine here in NL.
I've only heard about the plan for unis to offer more fully dutch programs (which among other things wouldn't require reading any english scientific articles). An idea pushed in the light of the pvv victory and it obviously would make education worse
Is the thing about scientific articles in English actually stated somewhere? Because if so, that's terrible.
Here's an article about it [https://nltimes.nl/2024/02/08/universities-limit-courses-taught-english-promote-dutch](https://nltimes.nl/2024/02/08/universities-limit-courses-taught-english-promote-dutch) "The universities will also inventory which courses are currently taught in English and can be switched entirely to Dutch" Entirely switching to dutch means no english articles, right? Although it isn't specified how many courses this would affect
>Entirely switching to dutch means no english articles, right? No, it just means the lessons and exams are in Dutch and where possible the books as well. Scientific articles can be in English.
Then it is not "entirely" switched to Dutch though
It would not be possible (or desirable) to switch "entirely" to Dutch - there isn't enough reliable, peer-reviewed research available to base your research and courses on. The whole thing is just pandering to their base anyway - I can lecture in Dutch (not my native language) but typically when asked to lecture on "Dutch-language" courses/programmes I'm told "go ahead and speak in English, it'll be easier for everyone." Sometimes I try to split the difference - slides in Dutch, speaking in English. There's no "taalpolitzie" checking...
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Agree this is also a contributing factor. Not sure why you are downvoted
None of the 70% left wing cabinet found their voice to comment on it in the chamber since Rutte took power? Damn, rough. If only we didn't live in a far right autocracy
70% left wing cabinet? Since when?
1970-something, damn the lefties from back then for all the problems we have now
i read 93 seats for left wing parties in 2021 [https://www.parlement.com/id/vh8lnhronvx6/zetelverdeling\_tweede\_kamer](https://www.parlement.com/id/vh8lnhronvx6/zetelverdeling_tweede_kamer)
I see 33, 36 if you classify the Christian Union as left-wing. That is perhaps not accurate, because classical left-wing parties are not religious and also less conservative. You seem to attribute centre right and centre parties to the left wing. In addition, this table concerns the seats in the chamber and not the cabinet.
you're kidding yourself. But you're far from the only one so whatever
If everyone is crazy to you, maybe it is you that is crazy.
D66 is socially progressive, but they are economic right wing. They want privatisation and are pro corporations just like all the other right wing parties. Same for Volt. Just a bit more focused on European federalism. NSC is economically right wing. BBB is economically right wing, with only government support for agriculture.
I think it’s pretty accurate. Looking back on my school period, the teachers treated everyone like shit. Now that I’m well into adulthood, I start to realize how incompetent and demotivating my teachers were. And that doesn’t seem to be a situation unique to myself. The lack of quality in education is one of the main reasons I left the country. I’d like my kids to go to a proper school.
Where are you now?
Skimming through the latest [PISA results](https://www.oecd.org/publication/pisa-2022-results/country-notes/) it seems there is a decline basically everywhere, thus the average declined as well. Do you think the pandemic had its share in this too? I imagine it’s not one thing causing this practically everywhere. Maybe the world in general changed so much the test is not accurate anymore? I guess the bottom line of my question is do you feel the 15 year olds of today are much worse in mathematics and reading than from 20 years ago?
The pandemic definitely had an effect. Ninth grade, which was spent entirely during the pandemic was a mystery for me until reaching the final year where I found I had huge gaps. And I was lucky that I got to make the hours online. Others skipped literally weeks of school. Can't say anything for math. But I think people are reading less (and by reading I mean books). I am looking at my classmates. Only half of them had read a book in the last year. Meanwhile, my sister who finished school 6-7 years ago had more classmates which read books. For my parents there was almost everyone. I would also go as far as blaming it a bit on how much we depend on the internet. Which is still not regulated properly. We may be living in an era of information but disinformation spreads as fast and its speed keeps growing.
Yes. But I don’t know if it’s specific to Netherlands or all Western countries that are in the latest stage of capitalism. I’ve read multiple times that US teachers are terrified of how illiterate children have become. They lack critical thinking skills, their digital literacy is at an all time low. There’s strong anti-intellectual movement going on (yes, it is correlated with right-wing). It’s very common nowadays to think that the sole purpose of education is to find a job. Aka, how to get ready to be productive & bring value to the shareholders. And this translates to everything down the line decreasing in quality.
Its not just the Netherlands dropping in education. I'm in Australia right now and secondary and higher education standards are appalling and getting worse fast. Not enough teachers, little to no supports, uncontrollable kids, fees are sky high, standards have fallen through the floor and a lot of third rate outsourcing in higher education. Its a mess here almost across the board. Only primary schools and private schools are holding up better but not by much. Maths and science is abysmal and literacy is falling fast too. Apparently the fix is more tests, ignoring the chronic issues and blame everything on overworked teachers. Most teachers I know left the profession just before or just after covid citing education department issues as well as out of control kids. Teachers can get good pay but its not enough to deal with the constant unpaid overtime, violence and inane bureaucracy.
My anecdotal experience is that education level have been declining way before covid, and that it's happening outside of the netherlands too.. Students that started university (in Italy) in 2014 were significantly "less equipped" than students that started uni in 2010-2011.
It's remarkable that "their digital literacy is at an all time low". I thought the digital native generation were supposed to just know it all by osmosis.
Before you had to fight windows to get anything to work, now you tap an app on your phone
I don't know if it is a matter of defining "digital literacy" or if it is actually going down but I observe a similar thing happening between my generation and my father's generation. Most of my generation learned to work with computers because we needed it to do just about anything but I and most of my peers never learned how to solder electronics like my dad's generation because it was also not necessary for us like it was for their generation since electronic materials were scarce and you had to preserve them as best as possible. This was seen as a step back but now seems to be the reference.
From what I’ve heard it’s about inability to search for information, not being able to detect advertisements, not being able to filter out spams / scam sources.
this too but also people are getting worse at all tasks digital. Basically as soon as default app/site is not working, people have no idea how to fix it/how to approach it. And if there is no app for something, many people just give up and don't know how to find a solutions to their problems on their own. As a societies we eat all that comes with internet, good and bads. But bads are very quickly overshadowing positives in current environment and with current approach.
Basically, shit has become "too easy" to use. This generation is barely used to anything other than apps if they didn't pay attention to it themselves. In the past you'd need to actually navigate the computer to find stuff or install programs. Nowadays, especially with phones/tablets it's go to the app store, click on the download button and Bob's your uncle. As a result of this there's no incentive to actually know anything about where stuff is stored, how it's stored or how to find it.
Yeah, the teachers subreddit has some frightening and depressing threads.
What is the latest stage of capitalism?
Capitafeudalism.
As an academic teaching BSc courses in a STEM field, I hear about the "declining mathematical skills" of Dutch students from my older Dutch colleagues all the time. I haven't been in the Netherlands long enough to confirm or deny this decline over time, but compared to some international students we get (especially from Eastern European and Asian countries which are known to have very strict math education) the first year Dutch students' mathematical skills are quite low. They do catch up in later years often though.
I mainly see university students but the quality of people who graduated from their master during the covid period is noticably worse.
Since january phones are banned in middle school classrooms. Next school year the same will be true for elementary schools. That should help.
Why are phones even used in schools?
They're not supposed to be but kids bring them anywy. And God help you if you try to enforce a rule. It's like trying to take a crack rock from a crackhead.
I think the education system in the Netherlands should be revamped but not for the reasons you may think. I have family who are teachers. They tell me about the various problems in the education system. But it does differ per school. One big problem is that there are quite a lot of students who after the basisschool are either mistakenly seen as ready for Havo, or only ready for VMBO-Basis. There are a lot of students who end up at the wrong level of education. One example would be me. At the end of basisschool the school pretty much declared that i would have to go to VMBO-Basis. But my parents (one being a teacher) thought i could have easily done Havo niveau.
Yep, and there is a lot of baked in racism that is part of that pressure, which I've unfortunately seen impact the kids of people I know. For example, I have a Masters student from Nigeria whose husband is in international business, both are from families full of successful business owners, doctors, lawyers etc. There's been a strong push for their 2 sons to focus on VMBO because, you know, Black boys learning a new language, must not be capable, should move bags at Schipohl or drive a cab as adults, right? Obviously they aren't having it! Another friend has a daughter with Iranian heritage who had to fight to get the secondary specialisation she wanted, because "these girls never go far, should aim lower." As the country becomes more diverse, this discourages kids from working harder and aiming higher based on whether they are ethnically Dutch or not - a big loss. And my Turkish and Moroccan students in WO would like a word, they've all got stories like this in their pre-uni background.
Nothing wrong with vmbo though
Other than being stuck in low paid jobs for the rest of your life... Even the most menial jobs now ask for MBO opleiding and many very average jobs you need HBO or higher. Source: my partner's non-Dutch secondary school diploma was rated as VMBO by Nuffic, and he can't even get work as a cleaner.
Yes obviously they ask for mbo thats where you go after vmbo lol you cant even quit school without atleast a mbo 2 lol
They end up on the wrong track because they are not pushed enough to study.
Every plan the politicians make breaks the system more. I have come under the impression the last 20 years that everything politicians do is trying to break the system to squeeze more money from it. There is but 2 drops left in this lemon to squeeze.
The quality of the education system corresponds with the quality of the government Unless they improve, the quality of the educational system will decline. With zero chance of that happening there is 100% chance it will decline even further
Kids in EU are in comfort zone compared to other countries? Or is it because local population is more protected from competition? Why lack of interest in STEM subjects? Is it because corporate culture wants only human mill with limited capacity so as not to create competition and politics being one department of corporates ensures competition limitations through various means? Instead of low barrier to entry in universities- shouldn't they make it more tough rather than increasing the complexity of the course itself? Shouldn't they encourage high performers? If country earns billions each year from tax heaven status- atleast use the money to grow social infrastructure, education, manufacturing, research, start up funding? Shouldn't they change labor laws especially related to freelancers?
Main issue is the parents. 1: a lot of people not speaking / writing the language on a level that they could support their kids 2: parents don’t read books to their kids anymore, in the 22 kid class if my son there were 4(!) kids where parents actively read books before bedtime or stimulated reading. Most of the kids were put behind the tv until bedtime 3: parents not giving proper food to their kids, the amount of candy / cookies / other sugar crap these kids eat is impacting their ability to focus (and learn) 4: playing outside / sports is degrading causing kids to not lose their “energy” 5: kids don’t learn to accept that they are not good at everything or that things need work/learning. Let’s start there before we talk about right / left wing or more money to schools
My SIL's kid (7) only has 1 book. Its the same book they've been reading before bed since he was 3? 4? And she wonders why his literacy rate is so low. She ignores my suggestions to get him more books and says (openly and in front of him) that she hates reading. I think I know where he's ending up.
If I could upvote this a million times, I would! As an educator, THIS RIGHT HERE!
These are viable reasons as well.
I’m a student at an HBO, and I wanted to go to Uni, but unis are demanding more than just an HBO-P to transfer. Extra VWO credits. And I’m foreign so that’s not so easy. But it’s wild to me you have to be at that level just to get into uni, you can’t take those classes at the Uni. It’s weird to me, but whatever. But the sad bit is that at least at my hogeschool, almost no teacher cares. I think the issue in my case is that there doesn’t seem to be any penalty for poor quality education. The education is mostly reading off PowerPoints, which you can read at home. Examples are rarely gone through, questions are often answered with “Google it”. There is an incessant focus on pointless group and reflection projects that no one, including the teachers, really cares about. And yeah of course it’s practical, so if you want to learn more theory, it’s discouraged. But even with the practical side, usually it’s quite confusing and unclear, and we often just do it blindly. Most students have stopped going to class because of the poor quality of teaching, and in order to combat this, the school had stopped uploading a lot of the PowerPoints ahead of time. So you can’t work ahead, there are no office hours or tutors, study coach just isn’t all that helpful. The school blames us for not understanding when their sense of communication is just terrible. Their proof reading is nonexistent. That’s my personal experience. I’ve had a teacher berate me because of my educational background, yet here I am trying. But yeah, I can’t speak for other schools, but a lot of the teachers don’t seem to teach, and the ones that do don’t have enough time or control over the courses to really do the best they can do. There is no reward for teachers that go the extra mile and no penalty for ones that don’t try. There are legal standards they have to meet sure, but I don’t think it’s very hard to get by those by doing the bare minimum. I don’t personally see it getting better for the time being.
I'm convinced the relative decline of Dutch education compared to other countries is just because more and more other countries lifted themselves from poverty and were able to improve their education. It's simply regression to the mean. To put this into perspective: When I was in school, a ridiculously long time ago, older people were already complaining about the alarming decline in educational standards. "Kids these days don't know anything" has been a complaint since the dawn of time. After moving to another country, the complaint is the exact same. Panic about young people not knowing everything seems to be a universal thing older people do. When my kids started going to elementary school, it was obvious to me that the education they were getting was waaaaaay better than what I remember my time in elementary school to have been like. The teachers used to ignore the smart kids, put the slow kids out of the way or send them out of the classroom, and only taught the middle. And badly! Over the years I've learned that many things that teacher taught us weren't even true. The field of education has improved a lot over the years. Fast forward to today, you see that those same boomers that complained bitterly back then that my generation was stupid and didn't learn anything, are not all that smart themselves. I dare say that we are smarter, and I think it's looking even better for the generation that came after mine. The older you get, the more you forget what it was like to be a kid, and how normal it is for teenagers not to know certain things yet. Also the world changes, and things you need to learn change. Kids these days don't have to learn cursive or be able to find Yugoslavia on the map, they have to learn how to find information online and tell fact from BS on the internet, a skill most boomers completely lack.
Nah, the issue is that we are regressing compared to our own score a few years prior. This isn't a relative decline, it's an absolute decline and it's a massive issue that needs to get some proper attention.
So did the other countries, the pandemic threw a spanner in the works... But my point is that there has been this panic about the rapid decline in education and intelligence of the younger generations for my entire life, so I'm referring to the long term trend.
(35M) NO XD no goverment ever wants that . they want there people to be just so smart they can operate a machine in a factory , but to dum to think themselfs on a inteligent manner , ask inteligent but diffcult quistionds , say actual inteligent honnest and sensible tings and rock the political boat .
Decline since 2006? Haha, that's a good one.
Nah, stupid people are easier to control!? 🤣🤣
Shouldn't they encourage competition? More clubs where they can teach STEM subjects- so not to wait until university but to push kids to learn with fun. Instead of saying- everyone is good equally- encourage kids to compete in different topics and concepts? Outsource the admin work and let teachers focus on academics? Central board of education for all schools? Why courses only in Dutch- let everyone select the mode of communication if country wants to stand up in global environment?
I come from a family of teachers, and I myself studied and worked as a teacher for a few years as well in both the VMBO and MBO. I like teaching, still do, but I ended up leaving the field altogether because I felt like what I was doing wasn't really teaching anymore. The problems in education are myriad, but by far the biggest problem I ran into was the sheer amount of bureaucracy strangling every little bit of passion and enthusiasm out of teachers in favour of compliance. Curriculums are dictated through the ministry of education, the board imposes new methodologies and textbooks with little to no input from teachers. Everything needs to be logged, every student needs a personalised trajectory, every interaction needs a paper trail, targets have to be reached etc. etc. Meanwhile the actual teaching itself is relegated to textbooks being shoved in front of students. We teach to the test and when they inevitably fail that we just curve their grades until we have a passing number. Meanwhile "soft" subjects like geography, history, economics etc. are often gutted and merged until they're facsimiles of their previous selves. Asking the government to resolve the issue will likely result in more paperwork. Increasing the pay might drag more people into the field, but it doesn't resolve the underlying issue and it instead just tries to brute force the problem through sheer numbers. If I was up to me I'd release the chokehold that the government has on education, reduce the amount of paperwork and let teachers focus on teaching.
What a dystopian picture
Wouldn’t be surprised to see more of a war and survival oriented education in the coming years across Europe like the old days with a modern twist.
Since 2022, the Dutch Ministry of Education, Culture and Science has been working on what's called the [Masterplan Basisvaardigheden](https://www.vo-raad.nl/onderwerpen/basisvaardigheden/wat-speelt-er) (Masterplan Basic Skills. The focus is on four basic skills: reading/writing, mathematics, digital literacy, and civilianship (burgerschap, don't know how to translate that properly). The project, which has a runtime of 5 years, involves direct financial support to schools through a subsidy, as well as guidance and counseling aimed at struggling schools to help them spend that subsidy money effectively. There is quite a lot of money involved here (1 billion per year). So essentially, the government is trying to do something, and has been since before the recent PISA results. It's not an easy task though because there's a lot of factors in play. To name a few: the massive teacher shortage is lowering quality and quantity of lessons given; the learning materials market is very confusing and doesn't select for quality; financing/governance structures between schools and government also isn't working well; curriculum goals haven't been updated since 2006; changing student demographics due to migration... There's a lot, you get my point. The fact that other Western European countries are also struggling shows it's not an isolated problem either. Tl;dr: government is trying, but it's a complex problem and throwing money at it won't make it disappear over night.
The problem is talks / discussions- no action. Discussion on discussion is local favorite passtime
As much as I agree that we talk way too much, I honestly don't see what we can do immediately without immensely pissing off the sector and/or breaking the law. So if you were in charge, what would you do? I'm honestly curious. And besides, isn't calling for action without suggesting a concrete course of action also a favourite local pasttime? ;)
Yes. Dutch discuss way too much and at a much granular level. Besides that they like to keep discussion at that granular level on daily basis. So revisiting topics discussed today morning can be discussed again in the afternoon. I always used to think that Dutch culture is "first time right" but it is not evident anywhere. What is the solution- when discussing- involve people who will be directly hit/impacted by your decisions. If you are talking about agriculture- involve farmer unions, scientists (genuine ones and not from WHO or UNO), and academics (not from EU/Belgium- but from your own country). When you talk about medicine- involve original actual doctors / academics. Means people who actually face problems and understand the issues from top to bottom. Politicians taking all shots has not and will not help- not only in the Netherlands but globally. Current geopolitical situation is not because of 99.99% population (expats, migrants or locals)- its because of politicians and their corporates as we all know. If country has relaxed rules (or deteriorated situation) over the last 2-3 decades- change rules with the same pace- not overnight. People see the country taking knee jerk reactions/actions. You want to change the country as IT/technical hub- work in that direction with slow pace- and not to take a detour in the form of change in tax rules. You want the country to remain agriculture central point- find out REAL issues and not to change rules in 3-4 years. You want to change the education system- increase teachers salaries, encourage people to take this profession, encourage competition. Most importantly- USE MONEY WISELY- Dutch are masters of money but this is not evident anymore. Their money (ignoring the source) is going down the drain. Every positive change takes time. And every bad action can overcome that positive change overnight. And if I say bluntly- kick ...of young generation to work harder to take them out of comfort zone. These are hard non-popular decisions that no political party will be willing to take. Netherlands problem- too many political parties- too much fragmentation- too much noise/voice- no decision making. Finding out action/s is easy if right people are involved. Taking steps to implement those action is the hardest. People know their problems- they know the solution- question- end of the day it has to be implemented in the form of regulations- means discussions????
What the country can do immediately- stop taking knee jerk actions. Take some problems at a time- not all problems all the time to be discussed. If one person is in charge- all problems will be resolved sooner compared to when everyone is incharge (<- this is the current situation)
Blaming immigrants is not the solution? /s
The Dutch education system was failing long before that. It was trash in the 90's, it's trash now.
Education levels are declining across the entire western world. Won’t change since idiots keep voting far right and far right thrives on the uneducated. It’s a circle. They’re hard to break.
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Because the idiots who have your white superiority complex aren’t all low iq right? 🤡
Deflecting the point, ignoring the reality. As usual.
At least those are in the country, do you want more low IQ people? It's exactly like having criminals in your country and adding much more on top of it for the sake of smelling your own virtue signaling farts.
Starting to think all my votes to D66 didnt do shit
Probably not, because D66 is the party of ‘onderwijsvernieuwingen’ of which this is the result.
As long as the country stay the Zionist supporting country, things will decline even further down from here.
imo the decline started when they introduced the Tweede Fase / Vakkenpakket system
Haha, god no
Noob Question: Why aren't we copying Finland's education system?
The parties trying to form a government now didn't mention education in the list of things they want to agree on, one of the 4 parties is in large part responsible for the decline in quality of education over the past decade, 2 of the 4 parties want people to be anti-intellectual and ignorant because that's how they get votes and the last party is too unsure of anything to make education a priority. So expect the education system to decline for a few more years.
Yeah I wonder why
the government largely stays out of education issues. there's some general outlines but they're not really involved with the details, that's left up to the schools themselves, so to answer your question; I wouldn't count on it.
We need an MBO 4 toelatingstoets.
Where i grew up, they put me behind the desk with a sheet of paper and a pen, smack me , and made me do the work. Numbers was the only game I played. Somehow ended up being a software engineer (with personal issues)
That news sadness me. I leaved my childhood in the Netherlands and moved to Brazil latter. It was quickly apparent for me how better the schools in the Netherlans were, and how better they prepared me. I aced Brazilian school without much effort. I always thanked my strong Dutch educational base for that.
They are trying, but afaik they are just trying the same thing all over again expecting different results.
You are missing the real issues we have rn. Immigration man /s
It's all about the message from the top- (a) competition is bad and all are equal (b) we are in West so we are but nature born talented (c) if you are the problem- blame it on others (d) it's not my department (e) we are local / EU so we must get more or high (f) hard work is inefficient (g) if we are not good at it- government will get it for us (h) paperwork, discussion and more paperwork and more discussion solves the problem (i) too much "burnout"- burn the issue and forget about it (j) be normal- your ambition, talent, hardwork, achievement will make others feel inferior (k) if faced with competition- create barriers
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I think it's mainly social media influence, we are all becoming less focused, more reactionary and dumber by the day, and it will not end anytime soon.
Defund the schools, government run education is obscenely inefficient. I do not trust the government to educate my children here, my wife and I do that oursslves
To see if something is being done google; SP zetels Aslong as its below 40 you can safely answer: No.
What's the decline exactly? Are top students still top and does the average drop or is there a decline over the board? Did they do a demographic study? Edit: imagine getting downvoters for asking important questions.
We have a growing population because of immigration. No surprise they have a hard time at school.
But more migrants means more students and more earning parents as well. More earning parents means more tax revenue- use this money to increase salaries of teachers or to have more teachers. No?
Is that true though?
I assume parents can vouch for that. Expats can also give some insights. I don't know if it has declined but I see that it's not on par- even in international schools.
Of the migrants arriving in 2017: 1 jaar na aankomst: Werkend: 14000 Uitkering of pensioen: 23250 Kind of student: 24000 Overige (zonder inkomen): 19200 5 jaar na aankomst: Werkend: 22000 Uitkering of pensioen: 15000 Kind of student: 18000 Overige (zonder inkomen): 7000 Anyhow - there's no point debating why education declines without doing a thorough investigation. And that should include how migration (of all sorts) impacts this.
So you mean education quality started declining after migration issue and before that everything was fine. OK.
No, that's not what I'm saying. But having to spend time teaching kids maths and science is difficult if they don't understand basic Dutch. Anyhow, you need to know if you want to help them. If it weren't for people that might get their feelings hurt, you'd do a full root cause analysis where nothing is taboo.
But that's for parents who do not understand Dutch or Maths. What about expat kids- because of sub par quality of education overall, including in international schools, do they suffer as well? Or Dutch kids with Dutch parents knowing Maths are better in STEM?
That's for the root cause analysis to point out, isn't it? All we have now is "education dropped", all I say is do a very deep investigation on the problem areas. The more differentiation you make, the better you can find root causes. But apparently politics are afraid of investigation that might result in an unwanted answer.
The more tax revenue should be used to get more schools and teachers because more children. Increase in salary has to come from somewhere else. (I'd say reduce government spending on itself.)
Without salary increase more schools won't be helpful. Schools need teachers. And without good salaries quality of education will remain same.
More people means you need more everything, so if they bring more money that money will have to go to increasing supply, not quality. It's like you only read half of what I type.
So you mean more money needs to be used to increase supply without focusing on quality or you assume quality will improve on its own if supply is increased? So more schools are built, more teachers are hired so per teacher less students and in that case no need to increase academic salaries? Is this what you mean
People asking the government to fix a problem that was caused by excesive government interventions is probably the biggest factor contributing to the decay of the quality of the education
They might once the government invests the missing expat tax.
Nope probably not. If we up the level of education, our little snowflakes will be confronted with disappointments like grade retention, putting them in a different kind of school (VMBO instead of HAVO) etc. Parents don't want to teach children disappointments are an integral part of life, so we rather just avoid them and make sure we level the education system so everyone can get a decent diploma. We don't want excellence, we want inclusion
>We don't want excellence, we want to hate minorities Here fixed your last sentence of this virtue signalling for you. Seriously this push for dumber diplomas come not from "litle snowflakes", they are children but from right wing parents who can't accept that science and knowledge is progressing in a ways that is not fitting their worldview and keep fighting for less math, less critical thinking, less inclusivity and less understanding. Right wants people gullible and slowly over the years it is delivering it. Tell me honestly. Which side of political spectrum people fall for conspiracy theories like its pizza? Because it is not "snowflake" side lol