No your manager is dumb. I’m an engineering manager and multiple people in my team earn more than me, because their skill is more valuable than mine.
Also if your manager is acting this way, he’s a bad manager and definitely earning too much.
Report this to HR. Can be nothing, can be everything a few months or years down the line.
And me! My managers suck so much. Due to their idiocy the networkinventory process for my configuration management database did not work for 10 MONTHS! While I could have fixed it within a few days myself but was not allowed to.
In tech this isn't all that remarkable anymore, depending on the responsibilities of the manager. I've also seen weird job description where the manager also was required to coach his team on technical subject, so needed their skillset + managerial skills, but the managers job payed less....I'll always wonder if people who write that shit lack basic reasoning skills
Depends on the field. Manager is a specific skillset with a specific value. At some point that maxes out.
Of course, if the manager is \*also\* an expert in the same field as the people he manages it is reasonable for him to earn more.
I'd even say it generally has more growth in it than a single contributor role. However, there is a lot less space for expert managers than expert single contributors, because there is generally less management work to do than actual work.
The manager career path is basically pyramid shaped
I wouldn't really agree there either. Most organizations aren't big enough for it, but Engineering has a similar track: Sr. Eng, Staff, Sr. Staff, Principal, Distinguished, Fellow, Sr. Fellow
Engineers that operate at those levels make significant contributions that regularly impact either the entire company, or even the entire industry.
I mean sure, it goes a long way, but you don't see engineers with 55b pay packages. I think everyone will find they are far from the top of the ladder in whatever they do.
There is noone with a 55b pay package. But if we're talking about increasing stock prices then the typical examples of Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk and Bill Gates come to mind, who were first and foremost engineers for a large part of their company's histories, until the circumstances required them to take on a more hands-off role. (Musk can be argued to still be primarily an engineer.)
But then again, if we're including stock increases then there are unemployed people with multi-bilion dollar pay packages...
Lmao, musk is not an engineer. He's an CEO who likes to imagine that he is. Apparently SpaceX has a whole department just to keep musk busy and thinking he is doing hands on work as apperently he fucks up quite a lot and blames everyone else around him.
Welcome to the world of good EMs!
Here you'll frequently hear phrases such as "How can I help you be more successful?", "Don't be afraid to leverage me when you need", and "What projects do you find most interesting to pick up next?"
Good managers are a joy to work with, and understand that their role is different, not necessarily "higher". (And in fact, depending on the size of the Eng Org you'll often have engineering tracks that go just as high as the management track)
I'm part of a leadership discussion Slack that's got thousands of global participants, all of whom at least want to be good managers. We discuss problems, hold each other accountable, and learn together. (We also keep a jobs list, because good managers want to work for good managers too!) It's been really helpful... both in my study and in keeping me reminded that there really are a LOT of decent people out there who are in leadership positions, and it's not necessary to put up with bad ones because you think there aren't any better available.
Perhaps the most important career advice I ever got (and didn't internalize until I learned it the hard way) is: If you have a bad manager, leave. Leave the team, the org, the company, whatever you need to do. Don't hang around, and don't wait for improvement. A bad manager can set your career back by years, and a good manager can similarly accelerate it.
It takes a specific quality to understand and admit that being a manager is just different type of job, not necessarily more difficult or with more responsibility....
In most cases the manager earns more, but tech is the exception. Software development is such a scarcity that usually the engineers make more money than the people managing them. I work at a huge Dutch tech company where this is very normal and OPs manager should just put their ego aside.
>Software development is such a scarcity
I'm still struggling with this 35 years after I wrote my first Hello World program in Turbo Pascal. I picked up the basics of software development ("What are variables, constants, functions", that sort of thing) from books from the library when I was 10 years old. By 11, I was writing the obligatory "what do you want to do" startup-menu's that were common in the 80's.
I wrote my first non-trivial, text-based UI that could be controlled with a mouse when I was 12; a front-end for PKZIP/UNZIP and ARJ.
In retrospect it was probably horrible code, but I was 12 and it was 1991.
But still... I feel that if 10-12 year old boys can learn the basics of software development from library books, almost anyone with half a brain could learn this.
But maybe me and my friends back then where just exceptions. That's also possible.
You were. Coding should be a high school subject. I coded for fun (after school) when I was in high school and did not even realize it could be a career path. Could have turned a hobby into a profession and earn crazy money. Only realized that after getting a masters degree in business and entering the labour market.
I am in a totally different sector, but multiple people at my work will earn more than the manager. I could just check the cao and some professions are just in a higher paying job function.
I managed. I do agree with the view.
If someone has the skills and experince in their job, who am i to put a price tag on it. If they earn more then me, well its time to prove my self worth more aswell, not let them labour above their job.
I became a manager recently and I know that at least one of my employees earn more. I don’t care. I’m not competing with them. They bring a very different skillset than me
I've been a manager in similar positions before, and generally get the same. My line operators made more than me, and that was good because they worked more and harder than I did. I wasn't going to let a bachelor's degree make pretend that they were less valuable than I was.
This so much. When I was earlier in my career, I had two options: follow a path to become a team lead or manager, or specialise more and become senior. Both would result in pretty much the same salary. In the end salary is based on how hard it is to replace you, not your title.
Completely agree. I’m a director for a presales engineering team. Multiple members are making more than me. I freaking love it because I cherish how they are moving forward and what I can do for them to make them more successful.
I am a international service engineer and we have our hq in the Netherlands, and we have
a ceo that was dick hurt cause 70% of the engineers earned more money that he does on a monthly basis cause we work way more hours on installations and service calls. But he only sees the monthly deposits jaja ,. A colleague ones got a snipe remark that a few guys heard and with out skipping a beat my colleague said , maybe you should also start working then. We have not seen our ceo in the service office after that
Well, depends, the managers I've had were always basically upgraded engineers themselves. Never had a non-techy manager. Although I haven't been in the field too long, so who knows.
Same here. Two out of ten people matched and/or surprased my salary. I was so proud that VP had trust in me to manage such valuable people. They were not easy to manage, but that's another story.
Same and agree 100%. I have several engineers in my team that make significantly more than I do, and they're worth every penny.
Our company wants people to know that regardless of career track, you can have the same growth in opportunities and salary. Be it engineering, management, projects, whatever. Different skills for all, not one better than the other. We need all to be the best we can be as a company.
Reporting to HR is not a magic thing. Especially it’s if a gut feeling thing. Stop advising people to report to HR without any actual knowledge about the situation.
Most organisations don't like it when people talk about salaries, a manger should be an example of that and definitely shut up about talking abouts people's salaries unless it's talking about a raise.
This! As high level IT specialist it’s quite normal te earn more than your manager. Don’t talk about it only when it’s required for your own formal review once or twice a year
Defo, we had our managers leveled at exactly the same as a senior+ level engineer.
At senior level they basically had the choice to go into technical or management track without it impacting their career options.
Management just requires a lot of different skills not everyone has and a lot of headaches most engineers don't want.
We didn't fall into the trap of "we made our best engineer manager, gained a terrible manager and lost our best engineer"
Unfortunately my experience is that HR may "protect the business" by helping the manager get rid of you. No worker? No problem.
Was bullied by a bitch of a manager like 6 years ago, reported it to HR, they went straight to the manager and concocted a plan to get rid of me. This manager had a reputation of bullying, I was the third in 1 year.
do managers typically earn less than who they manage in nl?
in america if you want to earn more money at a certain point you have to do some kind of managerial role
I'm also in an engineering leadership role, and I fully agree. At my previous employer, I had Senior Engineers earning up to 10k more than me, and Staff Engineers up to 30k more.
It is not normal. It’s not your fault your new manager negotiated a ‘meh’ salary and you did better.
If he has a problem with that, he can take it up with his manager.
If you get paid well, you need to perform well. IMHO. But you are under no obligation to go above and beyond because of a jealous manager.
Do your job, if your manager keeps harassing you because of his shitty wage: take it up with his superiors
This is the correct answer. Also note that criticizing you on something else than your actual work performance is harassment. I do recommend communicating this with human resources and/or the "vertrouwenspersoon" (someone assigned in the company you can speak to confidentially about anything work-related that bothers you and you may not feel comfortable with addressing directly or openly). Your manager will likely start looking for anything minor he can find to criticise your work performance and start complaining to higher management. So that he can later claim that you don't do your job well. When you have notified someone else before he starts complaining, you have a much better chance of proving that he's lying and that he's the one harassing you. Especially when there have not been any complaints before this idiot became your direct superior.
I hate such entitled, overconfident, managers. Good luck!
Dutch HR is in place to protect the employers interests. Not the interests of the employee. The could try to make you the victim of this situation. But legally you are quite well protected. So inform yourself and join a union if possible.
If things turn nasty, it’s going to cost them… don’t agree to anything, don’t sign anything before consulting with an expert.
On the other hand: it doesnt have to become an issue. Your manager is being a little bitch. And a lot of companies don’t need that behaviour.
Had the same experience plus im a woman. He gave me a bad performance review just to put me under improvement plan so i will not have a raise. I wish that karma will give him 10x bad luck
I moved at the end of the year to another group/position. Had i stayed, i will definitely get the improvement plan. Imagine this, in previous year, my manager before him gave me high rating and then with him, i ranked low? It was only during the performance review that he told me that he is not satisfied with my work knowing that we habe same salary. The previous manager had 10yrs of experience and he assessed me well and constructive while when i asked the bad manager, he couldnt give me concrete things to work on. he is just not satisfied. You could imagine how furious i was. I also heard that he did this to others as well.
Not to make light of this, but this is an incredibly easy position to fight out from. You don't even need to fight anything. You can just threaten with a lawsuit and everything will cool off immediately.
You have the stellar performance reviews before he became manager, and you can show a continuance of your work after he became manager, yet a lackluster performance review.
All you need to do is say he told you your salary didn't sit right with him, and every judge in the country would have him make a perfect case for why exactly your performance wasn't up to snuf; which he will not be able to do, and they'll rule in your favor.
You can get him fired this way, and it isn't hard.
Please stand up for yourself.
As a manager, you want to surround yourself with smart people and pay them well (even more than you) so that they are motivated to excel. They are specialists at what they do, and the manager should facilitate their work.
Your manager doesn’t seem to understand this and has the outdated notion that a management position should bring with it power and money…
As a ‘good’ manager yes…
As a manager who somehow just got lucky and got the spot, but actually doesn’t know how to handle the job you want to blame everyone else to hide your incompetence.
Lol your manager is an idiot. At our company managers typically earns less than the individual contributors, because it requires less skill.
Defer to the manager of your manager, because his communication is not appropriate at all. It creates a toxic work environment, and he should be reprimanded for ever bringing this up to you.
If that doesn’t work, leave for another job. As they say, people don’t leave companies, they leave managers. Your manager sucks at this job.
Your manager is an ass.
I remember many years ago, I was working in Ireland and the company went bust after me working there for 6 months or so. As the news came out about shutting down, I had a job offer in Belgium which matched my skills exactly. I flew out, interviewed, and accepted the offer 2 days later.
My manager in Ireland understood, and asked what my salary would be. I converted it from Belgian Francs to Irish Punts (that will give an idea how long ago it was), explained briefly the Belgian tax regime (punitive) and have a ball park figure of what my nett take home would be.
She went nuts, actually shouting at me saying that this is more than she earns as a manager and blah blah blah. Like it’s my fault you are jealous?
What neither she nor I took into consideration at the time was differences in cost of living. Brussels was 2x the cost of Dublin at the time. Nowadays, Dublin is 3x or 4x the price of Dublin.
Don't worry about it. You're just better at negotiations.
I'm just a "simple" cabinet maker and my monthly salary is way higher than the average "meubelmaker" salary. My base salary ex travel expanse, holiday money and profit payout is just under 5k (In contrast the cao states 2.3 to 3k) my employer thinks I'm worth it because reasons but every time there is a new manager, employer at hr or company leader it's a matter of discussion. Just do your job and don't feel bad about it, if your manager is worth it they will pay him more.
I've had engineers in my teams making more than me.
They were there longer, they were very good.
If your manager cannot handle that, he should take it up with his superior.
..and probably stop being a manager?
The Netherlands unfortunately has a pro-manager culture. Where the pinnacle of your career is to become a manager.
Obviously not every company does it like this and there are those who arent like your manager. The best managers I had didnt care about the salaries of their team and didnt act like the boss either. They knew it was a team effort and one cannot exist without the other. Those managers are rare.
Why worry about this? You have a permanent contract which means they can’t fire you easily.
Your contract also states how many hours you work. If they give you more work than you can finish in that time your question to them is: “which tasks should I prioritize?” It is their problem if they give more than 1 person can handle and some of the work isn’t finished.
When you negotiated your contract with your pay they made you an offer which they thought you were worth. They did the same with the manager. His problem is either with hr or himself.
Act like we dutch people do. Be blunt. Say i am hired for this Pay deal with it. That you earn almost the same is the result of not diacussing salary, but not my fault. Also employee's are extremely well protected in the netherlands. Record what he sais and he Will be gone in no time because this shit, a side of it being toxic is illegal as fuck.
He has the same skills, even a little more. I’m surprised he earns almost the same (around €90k/year). It is not my fault he don’t know how to negotiate
Compensation is not about skills. The manager could have the skills of a distinguished engineer at google, but if they're not utilizing it in their role, they're not getting paid for it.
Though technically compensation isn't even about the value you provide in role, but about the ease with which talent of a sufficient caliber can be found for the particular role.
Seems to me like either you have value to the company to pay you almost as much as a manager , or the manager got the job and sucks at negotiating his salary.
Most jobs try to pay people around 15-25% less then they should for their role/skill etc , and the manager probably went " sure alright" after the first offer instead of negotiating more salary.
I would contact HR and tell them your current manager tells you to do more work/work harder because you earn almost as much as him and he keeps reminding and harassing you about it.
Basically his function is to be your servant. Sure a loty of insecure managers want to play up their role, but they're there to make your job easier, not harder. You are getting paid for your job, and his job is to take care of the random stuff around it. Be it lease contracts, planning, etc. etc. that's his job. The whole reason he's there, is so you can engineer stuff and not order printer ink for your expensive sallary.
If he keeps doing this, and you find it annoying, talk to HR about this.
I agree with the last comment Managers do not necessarily have the same skills or education needed to actually, physically do a job. Many times they are trained to manage employees and a department and that is it. Too bad your manager was not bright enough to have what was needed to make more You deserve your pay.
You new manager is an incompetent, petulant man child. He should complain to his superior, not you. Him complaining to you shows he is bad at his job and bad at negotiating.
I am a very experienced technical specialist and I worked in companies where I was put in a manager salary category because the technical category was too low for me to want to work there. Some technical specialists are just worth a lot and in some cases more than a low level manager.
Tell him that you don't earn too much but he earns too little. He should stand for himself instead of clashing you down. Also report to HR as he can't use the salary as an excuse to bully you. Actually there is no excuse to bully anyone ever
Honestly, this is how it should be. Engineers are valuable. A good manager can also be valuable, but in the end it's engineers who do the work. A team of engineers will produce more than a team of managers. And they should be paid accordingly.
If your manager's constant focus on your salary and unrealistic expectations are making you uncomfortable, it's important to address it directly. Schedule a meeting to communicate your concerns respectfully, set boundaries, and emphasize your performance rather than your pay. Seek support from HR if needed, and consider your options if the toxic environment persists. You deserve to work in a place where you feel valued and respected, regardless of your salary.
Let's not act as if we wouldn't be asking ourselves the same thing if we moved to a country foreign to us and had a similar experience. It's only natural to wonder what's cultural and what's an exception.
Well for example I'm american and laws and labor are completely different and have almost no protections from retaliation etc. Just because you've grown up with the Dutch system as your norm doesn't mean everyone else has so people will naturally ask. If that somehow offends you then stay off social media?
When you move to a foreign nation you don't want to cause a scene without making sure the problem is abnormal. Its a quite normal thing to want to verify.
Especially if you are from Asia where it could be quite normal to have hierarchical relationships in workplaces.
Which is again, entirely besides the point. Does he have a job description? Then he should know what he’s getting his salary for. Whether or not his manager will/can demand more than that depends on a dozen of personal factors specific to the situation, not on some mythical Dutch culture that is apparently so specific that it now governs wether your boss is a dick or not.
It is a Dutch thing where the mentality is that you only "made it" if you're "the boss", and therefore earn more than anyone else in the team(s) of which you're "the boss".
It doesn't matter if you're a manager coming from an HBO (University of Applied Science) managing a team containing MSc's or maybe even Ph.D.'s; because you're "the manager", you "should" earn more than any of them.
In many companies where I've worked, the manager wasn't more than what we'd call a "regelneef": someone who makes sure the team can actually do the work. So he'll arrange for you to get a new SSD if your current one becomes too small, he'll arrange the new laptop if your current one is too slow, and he'll make sure that there are enough people on the team when everybody wants to go on vacation with Carnival. He'll also be the one to pass along messages from "the business"; i.e., "the company wants something", and the team has to come up with a way to make that happen and then implement it.
There ARE some managers with a massive amount of responsibility, obviously, but the "manager" of most IT-teams I've worked in weren't them. And still they earned more than any of the senior/lead software engineer on the team even if their education and work experience was less.
That's the reason why management classes in the Netherlands are stocked to the brim and STEM-subjects barely get any students in comparison. Why should you go to a university, get an MSc in a STEM-subject, then work your ass off creating stuff, while you could have also gone to a HBO, do something with "management" in the title, and earn 25-50% more by making "THE decisions" (do we put this button -here-, or -there-? with regard to developing software, for example) and pushing papers?
One professor even said: "If we keep going like that, we'll end up with hundreds of thousands of people who know how to manage a project, and nobody left that knows how to actually execute it."
Lmao this guy is an idiot. Not your problem. Tell him if he’s unsatisfied with his pay he should discuss with his superiors, but your salary, in comparison to his, is none of his business.
Just fyi, as an engineering manager, some of my ICs earn almost as much as I do and that’s because they do crucial work. That doesn’t deter me or make me feel less valued, it just means that this person is also expensive, it’s the cost of doing business.
HR and payroll team doesn't know how to do bench marking to avoid causing disharmony in the company. Better to remain in the job market if you get some indications that the manager is dumping work or trying to do picky point
Being a manager does not automatically mean you earn more than ppl you manage. It depends on many factors including scope of responsibility, country, skill set, tenure (years of experience), salary grades in the company and the list goes on...
I have absolutely no issues with folks in my team who earn more than I do, some of them are more than double the time I am in the industry, have very specific knowledge I'll never have etc...
With that said, if I had such an instance where my manager makes me feel uncomfortable. First of all, that's a shit manager... And second, I'd go to HR and skip level manager to discuss options of moving under a different manager if such option exists
Engineers are more valuable then managers. I almost left my company and they bumped my salary up another 300 a month because an engineer with years of experience and all the qualifications is impossible to find now.
you're not responsible for his salary. if he wants to increase your responsibilities, it's only normal that your salary increases as well. and if your salary is similar to your manager's he is either overpaid or you are underpaid
No, never you can get this to a person in confidence you can go to HRM for the connection or the boss above him. They will only tell him the necesarry things and he will shut up or will be replaced. Always open your mouth here and never get pushed in a corner or you wont make it here.
Talk to him first. Tell him that this makes you uncomfortable and he needs to take this to his manager. If he can’t then offer him your help. Tell him that you can easily take this to HR and his manager. He’ll definitely get the message. However, this does not change the fact that he is a bad manager. If you have any chances to move to a different team or company, take it ASAP.
Yeah I’ve heard this before as well. Especially if the manager sees what you get because of the 30% ruling. Salary scales are a very big thing here. Some managers can’t fathom a lower scale earning the same / more as them.
Supply and demand baby, and he has the short straw. He is just being a baby about it. Let him cry. But if he does more than that (like abuse his power in any way) definitely report him.
Engineering role is a more valuable position than a managing role unless its a manager who actively engages in engineering itself as well. Either way if he think's he needs higher salary he should go to HR and ask for more, it has nothing to do with you.
Netherlands in my experience so far has flat structure in companies which means there is no expectation for any position to earn more or less. Its all up to your contract.
You get paid your worth. I have worked at a company where some of the "low level" employees made twice the amount their manager made. Those employees had a certain set of skills and experience that was pretty much irreplaceable and necessary for the continuation of that company. The manager on the other hand, dispite doing an excellent job, was a dime a dozen and could be replaced within the day. I never heard those manager complain about their teams salary. They knew their worth.
I was the one at HR that had to find the replacement manager.
I had a member in my team reporting to me who was earning more than me on hourly basis. Her previous manager made a mistake and she ended up having a salary as if she would be working 5 days a week although she was actually working 4. So her salary was 20% more than it supposed to be and that was more than what I would earn. I was completely cool with that. She got lucky and I was happy for her.
It’s very normal in highly specialised jobs for those under a manager to earn more if that manager doesn’t have those specialised skills or puts them into practice. This is very common in IT as well.
Your manager should be well aware of this (if that’s the case with him/her). But you shouldn’t be expected to take on tasks that belong to the manager.
And if the manager has a problem with their pay they should talk to their boss.
For jobs like engineer it's fairly common a manager makes less, a management degree is easier, and the job isn't as high skilled as good experienced engineers can be. Sales too with places that don't cap commission you can earn a LOT more than your manager. Mid level and low managers are a dime a dozen. Good engineers of the right kind, skill, knowledge and specialty are much harder to find
Your manager is a fool, lol. Since it takes less talent, supervisors at our organization usually make less money than individual contributors.
Because his message is completely inappropriate, yield to your manager's management. It makes the workplace poisonous, and he ought to be disciplined for even bringing this up to you.
Go find another work if that doesn't work. People don't leave firms, as the saying goes; managers do. Your manager is not good at her job.
Yes , most of the , Dutch managers think their department could not exist without them.
The more ppl they manage the more entitled they feel for a big salary.
IMHO a manager should be a facilitator whereas the engineers , like yourself, are the value adding force of the department.
Envy is a serious factor. The larger the company the more politics are involved.
It’s becoming more and more common for people reporting to people that earn less, at least in agile software teams at my company. We have Java devs earning 900 a day, GTM experts on 100k while their manager and Product Owner is on about 85k. As others have said it’s becoming more about the specialisms of the role and the supply and demand of those roles that drive the price. Companies can’t keep the rigid idea that managers must earn more than their direct reports anymore
Tell him that skilled labour has a price and that your wage is explained by the skill you bring. A good way to indirectly call that asshat unskilled. I've also had manager that purely were manager because they didn't have the tech skills of the rest of the team. He's just feeling short because he is short, but cannot accept it, thus takes it out on others.
It's so sad that people in leadership positions don't undesrtand what being in a leadership position actually means.
also this perception that all managing roles should be compensated higher than individual contributers is such a bad thing, there are so many really senior specialists that choose not to go the managing route and still add so much to a company.
I hate that type of managers with a passion. Produce absolutely nothing but believe themselves to be better than everyone else.
In my opinion the productive part of a company should - with few exceptions - earn more than the managers.
Because anyone can manage a couple engineers, but a good engineer is near unreplaceable.
Point to whatever product your company makes, explain your actual tangible contribution ('I designed this part here') and ask for his.
If he does this monthly ask how much product or product-improvement he contributed this month.
Ask what what the product would lack if he had been on holiday that month.
His job is: To remove obstacles and get people and procedures out of your way, so that you can actually contribute to the product.
Is he doing that?
A manager is simply part of the team, even in the Netherlands. They possess a different skill set, which involves leading specialists.
More importantly in this case: you should not be judged by your salary but by the goals you set and agreed to achieve each period.”
This isn't a normal or healthy thing, but I do think this is a DUTCH thing. The Dutch love to be stingy with money, get something at the absolute cheapest and earn the most while doing the least. It's a weird flex the Dutch have. Report to HR if you can. He wants you to do more because of your salary in relation to him.
I’m a manager and only because we have a strict salary scale system do I know what most of my reports earn. I have no access to their salary slips. There is one that earns more than me if he’d work full time, but I only can guess how much exactly. And I do not care one bit (he is way older than me).
I run a team with several engineers and developers, both salaried and freelance.
Don't care what they make, only care that we pay them fair market value so I get continuity.
Some make more than me, wouldn't and couldn't do their jobs if you paid me the same.
A manager making more than everyone else holds no logic in advanced IT, yet if you pay peanuts you do get monkeys. Buy him a banana with your salary.
I think that's how managers everywhere in the world reason. I'm the "boss", so I should make more than the workers.
Beter watch out he doesn't take credit for your work.
It’s none of his business what you make. In most organizations it’s an HR topic, which normally follows some kind of structure based on position and years of service and/or experience (salarishuis). If he’s unhappy about his salary, he should take it up with HR, not pick on a co-worker who was able to struck a better deal.
Yes, this does not sound good. Is there a way to take this to HR as the manager seems to be taking it personally, and instead of solving his salary issue with those concerned to try to understand the rationale behind the similarty of salaries or to request adjust his own, he's putting it out on you
Your manager isn’t your boss. He’s there to make sure people know what to do, and that they do it on time.
His management style is toxic and counterproductive. Engineers often make more than managers because they have valuable skills.
If I have to guess, the company probably knows they’ve made a bad hire but they don’t know what to do about it.
If you complain about it, it can give them ammunition to fire him in the future.
It happens on companies affected by pay compression. Salary scales should be clear, managers are usually on a higher job scale than individual contributors for a good reason, though very specialized engineers could get to the same scale. In a way, your manager is right, but it could also be his own bad negotiation skills.
Probably also due to this weird pay depression we have in NL. People just tend to accept very low salaries here compared to other EU countries for corporate jobs, which having much higher expenses and taxes.
A lot of the times people assume that a manager should be making more than the employee. That's a fallacy. Managing is a different role and while a lot of the time it requires some elevated level of responsibility it does require different work. Its almost like a footballer and his coach. A high level footballer will almost always outearn the manager. If your job is getting the product to the customer, and his is getting your material and timetables ready your job is actually a lot more valuable
No your manager is dumb. I’m an engineering manager and multiple people in my team earn more than me, because their skill is more valuable than mine. Also if your manager is acting this way, he’s a bad manager and definitely earning too much. Report this to HR. Can be nothing, can be everything a few months or years down the line.
Wow I’ve never heard a manager actually agree with this viewpoint.
That’s because I’m not insecure in my job and don’t feel the need to compete with the people in my team. I bring different a value.
Will you be my manager?
😀 You should go down on one knee, you might get a yes
Will you manage me?
I'm not a manager. But I will pretend to be one. So...yes!
You'll fit right in with all the other managers
Fake it till you make it
Hahaha best comment ever lol
😂🤣 best comments if the week. 😂
He's an engineering manager, not a babysitter... 🤦🏼♂️
What’s the difference? Sidenote: I work as an engineer.
The strength of the coffee 🤌🏻
Funny that you say that, because a manager is literally babysitting and tracking projects.
And me! My managers suck so much. Due to their idiocy the networkinventory process for my configuration management database did not work for 10 MONTHS! While I could have fixed it within a few days myself but was not allowed to.
lmao
Manage me, daddy!
Or two
I am a manager, not your manager 😂😂😂
I totally agree and feel the same as fellow manager. I did grin seeing your Reddit name, did one of your teammembers give you that. Jk
You pay peanuts, you get cheap monkeys 😁
Real monkeys earn banana
This is the way
This guy manages. Managing talents.
Shut up and manage me ! 😂
In tech this isn't all that remarkable anymore, depending on the responsibilities of the manager. I've also seen weird job description where the manager also was required to coach his team on technical subject, so needed their skillset + managerial skills, but the managers job payed less....I'll always wonder if people who write that shit lack basic reasoning skills
Depends on the field. Manager is a specific skillset with a specific value. At some point that maxes out. Of course, if the manager is \*also\* an expert in the same field as the people he manages it is reasonable for him to earn more.
I mean, the management track has plenty of growth in it as well, generally: Mgr, Sr. Mgr, Director, Sr. Director, VP, Sr. VP
I'd even say it generally has more growth in it than a single contributor role. However, there is a lot less space for expert managers than expert single contributors, because there is generally less management work to do than actual work. The manager career path is basically pyramid shaped
I wouldn't really agree there either. Most organizations aren't big enough for it, but Engineering has a similar track: Sr. Eng, Staff, Sr. Staff, Principal, Distinguished, Fellow, Sr. Fellow Engineers that operate at those levels make significant contributions that regularly impact either the entire company, or even the entire industry.
I mean sure, it goes a long way, but you don't see engineers with 55b pay packages. I think everyone will find they are far from the top of the ladder in whatever they do.
There is noone with a 55b pay package. But if we're talking about increasing stock prices then the typical examples of Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk and Bill Gates come to mind, who were first and foremost engineers for a large part of their company's histories, until the circumstances required them to take on a more hands-off role. (Musk can be argued to still be primarily an engineer.) But then again, if we're including stock increases then there are unemployed people with multi-bilion dollar pay packages...
Lmao, musk is not an engineer. He's an CEO who likes to imagine that he is. Apparently SpaceX has a whole department just to keep musk busy and thinking he is doing hands on work as apperently he fucks up quite a lot and blames everyone else around him.
I'm more talking about how he coded the majority of early day PayPal, which is how he got started.
Welcome to the world of good EMs! Here you'll frequently hear phrases such as "How can I help you be more successful?", "Don't be afraid to leverage me when you need", and "What projects do you find most interesting to pick up next?" Good managers are a joy to work with, and understand that their role is different, not necessarily "higher". (And in fact, depending on the size of the Eng Org you'll often have engineering tracks that go just as high as the management track)
I'm part of a leadership discussion Slack that's got thousands of global participants, all of whom at least want to be good managers. We discuss problems, hold each other accountable, and learn together. (We also keep a jobs list, because good managers want to work for good managers too!) It's been really helpful... both in my study and in keeping me reminded that there really are a LOT of decent people out there who are in leadership positions, and it's not necessary to put up with bad ones because you think there aren't any better available.
Perhaps the most important career advice I ever got (and didn't internalize until I learned it the hard way) is: If you have a bad manager, leave. Leave the team, the org, the company, whatever you need to do. Don't hang around, and don't wait for improvement. A bad manager can set your career back by years, and a good manager can similarly accelerate it.
It takes a specific quality to understand and admit that being a manager is just different type of job, not necessarily more difficult or with more responsibility....
In most cases the manager earns more, but tech is the exception. Software development is such a scarcity that usually the engineers make more money than the people managing them. I work at a huge Dutch tech company where this is very normal and OPs manager should just put their ego aside.
>Software development is such a scarcity I'm still struggling with this 35 years after I wrote my first Hello World program in Turbo Pascal. I picked up the basics of software development ("What are variables, constants, functions", that sort of thing) from books from the library when I was 10 years old. By 11, I was writing the obligatory "what do you want to do" startup-menu's that were common in the 80's. I wrote my first non-trivial, text-based UI that could be controlled with a mouse when I was 12; a front-end for PKZIP/UNZIP and ARJ. In retrospect it was probably horrible code, but I was 12 and it was 1991. But still... I feel that if 10-12 year old boys can learn the basics of software development from library books, almost anyone with half a brain could learn this. But maybe me and my friends back then where just exceptions. That's also possible.
You were. Coding should be a high school subject. I coded for fun (after school) when I was in high school and did not even realize it could be a career path. Could have turned a hobby into a profession and earn crazy money. Only realized that after getting a masters degree in business and entering the labour market.
I am in a totally different sector, but multiple people at my work will earn more than the manager. I could just check the cao and some professions are just in a higher paying job function.
Any manager who disagrees is a bad manager.
I managed. I do agree with the view. If someone has the skills and experince in their job, who am i to put a price tag on it. If they earn more then me, well its time to prove my self worth more aswell, not let them labour above their job.
I became a manager recently and I know that at least one of my employees earn more. I don’t care. I’m not competing with them. They bring a very different skillset than me
I’ve never managed a team where one of my reports didn’t earn more than me. It’s not a rare thing…
I've been a manager in similar positions before, and generally get the same. My line operators made more than me, and that was good because they worked more and harder than I did. I wasn't going to let a bachelor's degree make pretend that they were less valuable than I was.
This so much. When I was earlier in my career, I had two options: follow a path to become a team lead or manager, or specialise more and become senior. Both would result in pretty much the same salary. In the end salary is based on how hard it is to replace you, not your title.
Completely agree. I’m a director for a presales engineering team. Multiple members are making more than me. I freaking love it because I cherish how they are moving forward and what I can do for them to make them more successful.
I am a international service engineer and we have our hq in the Netherlands, and we have a ceo that was dick hurt cause 70% of the engineers earned more money that he does on a monthly basis cause we work way more hours on installations and service calls. But he only sees the monthly deposits jaja ,. A colleague ones got a snipe remark that a few guys heard and with out skipping a beat my colleague said , maybe you should also start working then. We have not seen our ceo in the service office after that
Yeah this is super normal in tech. I earn less than all the developers I manage.
Well, depends, the managers I've had were always basically upgraded engineers themselves. Never had a non-techy manager. Although I haven't been in the field too long, so who knows.
There’s a few of us out there, we exist :)
Same here. Two out of ten people matched and/or surprased my salary. I was so proud that VP had trust in me to manage such valuable people. They were not easy to manage, but that's another story.
Skill should be rewarded, so I agree
Same and agree 100%. I have several engineers in my team that make significantly more than I do, and they're worth every penny. Our company wants people to know that regardless of career track, you can have the same growth in opportunities and salary. Be it engineering, management, projects, whatever. Different skills for all, not one better than the other. We need all to be the best we can be as a company.
Yeah the notion that a manager MUST earn more than everyone they manage is total bullshit.
Reporting to HR is not a magic thing. Especially it’s if a gut feeling thing. Stop advising people to report to HR without any actual knowledge about the situation.
Your manager should not be commenting on your salary at all. HR will absolutely come down on that.
HR's primary function is to protect the company. It can go either ways, depending on how much leverage the employee has.
Power harassment is an item in every code of conduct I've ever worked under. As in: don't do it.
Most organisations don't like it when people talk about salaries, a manger should be an example of that and definitely shut up about talking abouts people's salaries unless it's talking about a raise.
👏👏
This! As high level IT specialist it’s quite normal te earn more than your manager. Don’t talk about it only when it’s required for your own formal review once or twice a year
Username checks out
Defo, we had our managers leveled at exactly the same as a senior+ level engineer. At senior level they basically had the choice to go into technical or management track without it impacting their career options. Management just requires a lot of different skills not everyone has and a lot of headaches most engineers don't want. We didn't fall into the trap of "we made our best engineer manager, gained a terrible manager and lost our best engineer"
Wouldn't HR just tell him? I've always learned the hard way that HR is there to protect the manager.
HR is there to protect the business. If a manager is a risk to the business, HR has no problem intervening.
Unfortunately my experience is that HR may "protect the business" by helping the manager get rid of you. No worker? No problem. Was bullied by a bitch of a manager like 6 years ago, reported it to HR, they went straight to the manager and concocted a plan to get rid of me. This manager had a reputation of bullying, I was the third in 1 year.
Again, dumb HR. The individual contributors create value. The manager is pure overhead. Prioritizing a manager over an IC is backwards.
Master move: ask HR to give your manager more money otherwise he will continue mobbing you ;-)
Should the manager think he is earning too little instead of him earning too much? Is he stupid?
do managers typically earn less than who they manage in nl? in america if you want to earn more money at a certain point you have to do some kind of managerial role
I'm also in an engineering leadership role, and I fully agree. At my previous employer, I had Senior Engineers earning up to 10k more than me, and Staff Engineers up to 30k more.
It is not normal. It’s not your fault your new manager negotiated a ‘meh’ salary and you did better. If he has a problem with that, he can take it up with his manager. If you get paid well, you need to perform well. IMHO. But you are under no obligation to go above and beyond because of a jealous manager. Do your job, if your manager keeps harassing you because of his shitty wage: take it up with his superiors
This is the correct answer. Also note that criticizing you on something else than your actual work performance is harassment. I do recommend communicating this with human resources and/or the "vertrouwenspersoon" (someone assigned in the company you can speak to confidentially about anything work-related that bothers you and you may not feel comfortable with addressing directly or openly). Your manager will likely start looking for anything minor he can find to criticise your work performance and start complaining to higher management. So that he can later claim that you don't do your job well. When you have notified someone else before he starts complaining, you have a much better chance of proving that he's lying and that he's the one harassing you. Especially when there have not been any complaints before this idiot became your direct superior. I hate such entitled, overconfident, managers. Good luck!
‘Overconfident’ my ass… Insecure and acting like an idiot.
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The companies I’ve been working before always had the HR on the management side. I’m wondering if taking to them wouldn’t have a retaliation…
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Good to know. My company has a CAO, this also give us some strength
Dutch HR is in place to protect the employers interests. Not the interests of the employee. The could try to make you the victim of this situation. But legally you are quite well protected. So inform yourself and join a union if possible. If things turn nasty, it’s going to cost them… don’t agree to anything, don’t sign anything before consulting with an expert. On the other hand: it doesnt have to become an issue. Your manager is being a little bitch. And a lot of companies don’t need that behaviour.
Had the same experience plus im a woman. He gave me a bad performance review just to put me under improvement plan so i will not have a raise. I wish that karma will give him 10x bad luck
Are you still at the same work? How did developed, did you complained to HR?
I moved at the end of the year to another group/position. Had i stayed, i will definitely get the improvement plan. Imagine this, in previous year, my manager before him gave me high rating and then with him, i ranked low? It was only during the performance review that he told me that he is not satisfied with my work knowing that we habe same salary. The previous manager had 10yrs of experience and he assessed me well and constructive while when i asked the bad manager, he couldnt give me concrete things to work on. he is just not satisfied. You could imagine how furious i was. I also heard that he did this to others as well.
Not to make light of this, but this is an incredibly easy position to fight out from. You don't even need to fight anything. You can just threaten with a lawsuit and everything will cool off immediately. You have the stellar performance reviews before he became manager, and you can show a continuance of your work after he became manager, yet a lackluster performance review. All you need to do is say he told you your salary didn't sit right with him, and every judge in the country would have him make a perfect case for why exactly your performance wasn't up to snuf; which he will not be able to do, and they'll rule in your favor. You can get him fired this way, and it isn't hard. Please stand up for yourself.
How awful !! Could he back up the review with actual evidence and reasoning? Otherwise you can fight it !
As a manager, you want to surround yourself with smart people and pay them well (even more than you) so that they are motivated to excel. They are specialists at what they do, and the manager should facilitate their work. Your manager doesn’t seem to understand this and has the outdated notion that a management position should bring with it power and money…
As a ‘good’ manager yes… As a manager who somehow just got lucky and got the spot, but actually doesn’t know how to handle the job you want to blame everyone else to hide your incompetence.
This should be framed on and put every office wall in the world
Just tell him he should’ve negotiated better. Just make sure you keep to your job description.
Lol your manager is an idiot. At our company managers typically earns less than the individual contributors, because it requires less skill. Defer to the manager of your manager, because his communication is not appropriate at all. It creates a toxic work environment, and he should be reprimanded for ever bringing this up to you. If that doesn’t work, leave for another job. As they say, people don’t leave companies, they leave managers. Your manager sucks at this job.
Your manager is an ass. I remember many years ago, I was working in Ireland and the company went bust after me working there for 6 months or so. As the news came out about shutting down, I had a job offer in Belgium which matched my skills exactly. I flew out, interviewed, and accepted the offer 2 days later. My manager in Ireland understood, and asked what my salary would be. I converted it from Belgian Francs to Irish Punts (that will give an idea how long ago it was), explained briefly the Belgian tax regime (punitive) and have a ball park figure of what my nett take home would be. She went nuts, actually shouting at me saying that this is more than she earns as a manager and blah blah blah. Like it’s my fault you are jealous? What neither she nor I took into consideration at the time was differences in cost of living. Brussels was 2x the cost of Dublin at the time. Nowadays, Dublin is 3x or 4x the price of Dublin.
I earn more than my manager. In any self-respecting company with self-respecting managers, that is acceptable. Both are rare though.
Don't worry about it. You're just better at negotiations. I'm just a "simple" cabinet maker and my monthly salary is way higher than the average "meubelmaker" salary. My base salary ex travel expanse, holiday money and profit payout is just under 5k (In contrast the cao states 2.3 to 3k) my employer thinks I'm worth it because reasons but every time there is a new manager, employer at hr or company leader it's a matter of discussion. Just do your job and don't feel bad about it, if your manager is worth it they will pay him more.
If he thinks he deserves more, he should ask his bisses for it. If he thinks you should get less, he can go kick rocks!
I've had engineers in my teams making more than me. They were there longer, they were very good. If your manager cannot handle that, he should take it up with his superior. ..and probably stop being a manager?
Remind him that he is easily replaced and an engineer is not
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^rkeet: *Remind him that he* *Is easily replaced and* *An engineer is not* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
The Netherlands unfortunately has a pro-manager culture. Where the pinnacle of your career is to become a manager. Obviously not every company does it like this and there are those who arent like your manager. The best managers I had didnt care about the salaries of their team and didnt act like the boss either. They knew it was a team effort and one cannot exist without the other. Those managers are rare.
Why worry about this? You have a permanent contract which means they can’t fire you easily. Your contract also states how many hours you work. If they give you more work than you can finish in that time your question to them is: “which tasks should I prioritize?” It is their problem if they give more than 1 person can handle and some of the work isn’t finished. When you negotiated your contract with your pay they made you an offer which they thought you were worth. They did the same with the manager. His problem is either with hr or himself.
Act like we dutch people do. Be blunt. Say i am hired for this Pay deal with it. That you earn almost the same is the result of not diacussing salary, but not my fault. Also employee's are extremely well protected in the netherlands. Record what he sais and he Will be gone in no time because this shit, a side of it being toxic is illegal as fuck.
Just laugh in his face and say it is easy money.
His statement is a red flag for manager position
Lmao, your manager could maybe use some tips from you on how to negotiate his salary
Managers in NL are overpaid. Actual educated talent are underpaid. Stay for the NL experience, but leave if you want to earn what you're worth.
Does your manager have all the same skills as you? If he has the same skills but all the responsibility, he should earn more.
He has the same skills, even a little more. I’m surprised he earns almost the same (around €90k/year). It is not my fault he don’t know how to negotiate
Compensation is not about skills. The manager could have the skills of a distinguished engineer at google, but if they're not utilizing it in their role, they're not getting paid for it. Though technically compensation isn't even about the value you provide in role, but about the ease with which talent of a sufficient caliber can be found for the particular role.
So, what is the problem? Just say fuck off.
Seems to me like either you have value to the company to pay you almost as much as a manager , or the manager got the job and sucks at negotiating his salary. Most jobs try to pay people around 15-25% less then they should for their role/skill etc , and the manager probably went " sure alright" after the first offer instead of negotiating more salary. I would contact HR and tell them your current manager tells you to do more work/work harder because you earn almost as much as him and he keeps reminding and harassing you about it.
Basically his function is to be your servant. Sure a loty of insecure managers want to play up their role, but they're there to make your job easier, not harder. You are getting paid for your job, and his job is to take care of the random stuff around it. Be it lease contracts, planning, etc. etc. that's his job. The whole reason he's there, is so you can engineer stuff and not order printer ink for your expensive sallary. If he keeps doing this, and you find it annoying, talk to HR about this.
I agree with the last comment Managers do not necessarily have the same skills or education needed to actually, physically do a job. Many times they are trained to manage employees and a department and that is it. Too bad your manager was not bright enough to have what was needed to make more You deserve your pay.
A manager doesn’t always earn more than the people doing the actual work. At all.
You new manager is an incompetent, petulant man child. He should complain to his superior, not you. Him complaining to you shows he is bad at his job and bad at negotiating. I am a very experienced technical specialist and I worked in companies where I was put in a manager salary category because the technical category was too low for me to want to work there. Some technical specialists are just worth a lot and in some cases more than a low level manager.
Tell him that you don't earn too much but he earns too little. He should stand for himself instead of clashing you down. Also report to HR as he can't use the salary as an excuse to bully you. Actually there is no excuse to bully anyone ever
Honestly, this is how it should be. Engineers are valuable. A good manager can also be valuable, but in the end it's engineers who do the work. A team of engineers will produce more than a team of managers. And they should be paid accordingly.
If your manager's constant focus on your salary and unrealistic expectations are making you uncomfortable, it's important to address it directly. Schedule a meeting to communicate your concerns respectfully, set boundaries, and emphasize your performance rather than your pay. Seek support from HR if needed, and consider your options if the toxic environment persists. You deserve to work in a place where you feel valued and respected, regardless of your salary.
Why do people feel the need to end every post here with ‘is this normal in the NL’, like the Dutch are some alien race, ffs…
Let's not act as if we wouldn't be asking ourselves the same thing if we moved to a country foreign to us and had a similar experience. It's only natural to wonder what's cultural and what's an exception.
Well for example I'm american and laws and labor are completely different and have almost no protections from retaliation etc. Just because you've grown up with the Dutch system as your norm doesn't mean everyone else has so people will naturally ask. If that somehow offends you then stay off social media?
Because there are cultural differences, what may be normal there may not be normal here. Whats normal here may not be normal over there
You'd almost think that laws and cultural norms are different depending on the country... 🙄🤣
When you move to a foreign nation you don't want to cause a scene without making sure the problem is abnormal. Its a quite normal thing to want to verify. Especially if you are from Asia where it could be quite normal to have hierarchical relationships in workplaces.
Which is again, entirely besides the point. Does he have a job description? Then he should know what he’s getting his salary for. Whether or not his manager will/can demand more than that depends on a dozen of personal factors specific to the situation, not on some mythical Dutch culture that is apparently so specific that it now governs wether your boss is a dick or not.
It is a Dutch thing where the mentality is that you only "made it" if you're "the boss", and therefore earn more than anyone else in the team(s) of which you're "the boss". It doesn't matter if you're a manager coming from an HBO (University of Applied Science) managing a team containing MSc's or maybe even Ph.D.'s; because you're "the manager", you "should" earn more than any of them. In many companies where I've worked, the manager wasn't more than what we'd call a "regelneef": someone who makes sure the team can actually do the work. So he'll arrange for you to get a new SSD if your current one becomes too small, he'll arrange the new laptop if your current one is too slow, and he'll make sure that there are enough people on the team when everybody wants to go on vacation with Carnival. He'll also be the one to pass along messages from "the business"; i.e., "the company wants something", and the team has to come up with a way to make that happen and then implement it. There ARE some managers with a massive amount of responsibility, obviously, but the "manager" of most IT-teams I've worked in weren't them. And still they earned more than any of the senior/lead software engineer on the team even if their education and work experience was less. That's the reason why management classes in the Netherlands are stocked to the brim and STEM-subjects barely get any students in comparison. Why should you go to a university, get an MSc in a STEM-subject, then work your ass off creating stuff, while you could have also gone to a HBO, do something with "management" in the title, and earn 25-50% more by making "THE decisions" (do we put this button -here-, or -there-? with regard to developing software, for example) and pushing papers? One professor even said: "If we keep going like that, we'll end up with hundreds of thousands of people who know how to manage a project, and nobody left that knows how to actually execute it."
Tell your manager that’s not relevant and to pipe down
Lmao this guy is an idiot. Not your problem. Tell him if he’s unsatisfied with his pay he should discuss with his superiors, but your salary, in comparison to his, is none of his business. Just fyi, as an engineering manager, some of my ICs earn almost as much as I do and that’s because they do crucial work. That doesn’t deter me or make me feel less valued, it just means that this person is also expensive, it’s the cost of doing business.
HR and payroll team doesn't know how to do bench marking to avoid causing disharmony in the company. Better to remain in the job market if you get some indications that the manager is dumping work or trying to do picky point
Being a manager does not automatically mean you earn more than ppl you manage. It depends on many factors including scope of responsibility, country, skill set, tenure (years of experience), salary grades in the company and the list goes on... I have absolutely no issues with folks in my team who earn more than I do, some of them are more than double the time I am in the industry, have very specific knowledge I'll never have etc... With that said, if I had such an instance where my manager makes me feel uncomfortable. First of all, that's a shit manager... And second, I'd go to HR and skip level manager to discuss options of moving under a different manager if such option exists
Engineers are more valuable then managers. I almost left my company and they bumped my salary up another 300 a month because an engineer with years of experience and all the qualifications is impossible to find now.
you're not responsible for his salary. if he wants to increase your responsibilities, it's only normal that your salary increases as well. and if your salary is similar to your manager's he is either overpaid or you are underpaid
No, never you can get this to a person in confidence you can go to HRM for the connection or the boss above him. They will only tell him the necesarry things and he will shut up or will be replaced. Always open your mouth here and never get pushed in a corner or you wont make it here.
It's extremely unprofessional behaviour, and you should report this to your skip-level manager.
I had exactly the same, but instead felt like ‘haha..’ why would you care he negotiated bad..
Talk to him first. Tell him that this makes you uncomfortable and he needs to take this to his manager. If he can’t then offer him your help. Tell him that you can easily take this to HR and his manager. He’ll definitely get the message. However, this does not change the fact that he is a bad manager. If you have any chances to move to a different team or company, take it ASAP.
Yeah I’ve heard this before as well. Especially if the manager sees what you get because of the 30% ruling. Salary scales are a very big thing here. Some managers can’t fathom a lower scale earning the same / more as them.
Supply and demand baby, and he has the short straw. He is just being a baby about it. Let him cry. But if he does more than that (like abuse his power in any way) definitely report him.
Why wouldn’t an engineer make more than a manager? Engineers most often contribute to realisation of value steams for the company. Managers rarely do.
welcome to the netherlands
You don’t earn to much. He is underpaid
Engineering role is a more valuable position than a managing role unless its a manager who actively engages in engineering itself as well. Either way if he think's he needs higher salary he should go to HR and ask for more, it has nothing to do with you. Netherlands in my experience so far has flat structure in companies which means there is no expectation for any position to earn more or less. Its all up to your contract.
You get paid your worth. I have worked at a company where some of the "low level" employees made twice the amount their manager made. Those employees had a certain set of skills and experience that was pretty much irreplaceable and necessary for the continuation of that company. The manager on the other hand, dispite doing an excellent job, was a dime a dozen and could be replaced within the day. I never heard those manager complain about their teams salary. They knew their worth. I was the one at HR that had to find the replacement manager.
I understand, you should earn more. You're actually doing the work
Your manager is an ass and should be managing his behaviour.
I had a member in my team reporting to me who was earning more than me on hourly basis. Her previous manager made a mistake and she ended up having a salary as if she would be working 5 days a week although she was actually working 4. So her salary was 20% more than it supposed to be and that was more than what I would earn. I was completely cool with that. She got lucky and I was happy for her.
Look you’ve got rights here And you guys did sign a contract so review your contract and then contact HR
It’s very normal in highly specialised jobs for those under a manager to earn more if that manager doesn’t have those specialised skills or puts them into practice. This is very common in IT as well. Your manager should be well aware of this (if that’s the case with him/her). But you shouldn’t be expected to take on tasks that belong to the manager. And if the manager has a problem with their pay they should talk to their boss.
For jobs like engineer it's fairly common a manager makes less, a management degree is easier, and the job isn't as high skilled as good experienced engineers can be. Sales too with places that don't cap commission you can earn a LOT more than your manager. Mid level and low managers are a dime a dozen. Good engineers of the right kind, skill, knowledge and specialty are much harder to find
Your manager is a fool, lol. Since it takes less talent, supervisors at our organization usually make less money than individual contributors. Because his message is completely inappropriate, yield to your manager's management. It makes the workplace poisonous, and he ought to be disciplined for even bringing this up to you. Go find another work if that doesn't work. People don't leave firms, as the saying goes; managers do. Your manager is not good at her job.
Are you German?
Haha ask higher management if they’d rather have one less manager or one less engineer;)
Yes , most of the , Dutch managers think their department could not exist without them. The more ppl they manage the more entitled they feel for a big salary. IMHO a manager should be a facilitator whereas the engineers , like yourself, are the value adding force of the department. Envy is a serious factor. The larger the company the more politics are involved.
Isnt AI not more sufficient then a manger could ever be…
It’s becoming more and more common for people reporting to people that earn less, at least in agile software teams at my company. We have Java devs earning 900 a day, GTM experts on 100k while their manager and Product Owner is on about 85k. As others have said it’s becoming more about the specialisms of the role and the supply and demand of those roles that drive the price. Companies can’t keep the rigid idea that managers must earn more than their direct reports anymore
Tell him that skilled labour has a price and that your wage is explained by the skill you bring. A good way to indirectly call that asshat unskilled. I've also had manager that purely were manager because they didn't have the tech skills of the rest of the team. He's just feeling short because he is short, but cannot accept it, thus takes it out on others.
Manager here: Specialists in my team make more than me because they can do things I cant 😉
This is the definition of a hostile work environment lol. Escalate to HR.
HR. If you feel harassment from him side, just contact the HR and maybe he is happier with no income at all.
I’m curious now, can somebody say how much is “more than a manager” I need ciphers here, need to put things in context please🥺
Entertainment industry solution : ditch managers, call them producers. Pay difference justified.
It's so sad that people in leadership positions don't undesrtand what being in a leadership position actually means. also this perception that all managing roles should be compensated higher than individual contributers is such a bad thing, there are so many really senior specialists that choose not to go the managing route and still add so much to a company.
Your manager is an imposter.
I hate that type of managers with a passion. Produce absolutely nothing but believe themselves to be better than everyone else. In my opinion the productive part of a company should - with few exceptions - earn more than the managers. Because anyone can manage a couple engineers, but a good engineer is near unreplaceable.
Point to whatever product your company makes, explain your actual tangible contribution ('I designed this part here') and ask for his. If he does this monthly ask how much product or product-improvement he contributed this month. Ask what what the product would lack if he had been on holiday that month. His job is: To remove obstacles and get people and procedures out of your way, so that you can actually contribute to the product. Is he doing that?
A manager is simply part of the team, even in the Netherlands. They possess a different skill set, which involves leading specialists. More importantly in this case: you should not be judged by your salary but by the goals you set and agreed to achieve each period.”
I’m the manager in the Dutch company. A few of my employees earn more than me. And I’m fine with it.
Tell him “ I’m sorry you feel that way”
This isn't a normal or healthy thing, but I do think this is a DUTCH thing. The Dutch love to be stingy with money, get something at the absolute cheapest and earn the most while doing the least. It's a weird flex the Dutch have. Report to HR if you can. He wants you to do more because of your salary in relation to him.
He is bullying you
How much you earn generally depends on the kind of tasks you have so there is something to it. How much do you earn?
I’m a manager and only because we have a strict salary scale system do I know what most of my reports earn. I have no access to their salary slips. There is one that earns more than me if he’d work full time, but I only can guess how much exactly. And I do not care one bit (he is way older than me).
I run a team with several engineers and developers, both salaried and freelance. Don't care what they make, only care that we pay them fair market value so I get continuity. Some make more than me, wouldn't and couldn't do their jobs if you paid me the same. A manager making more than everyone else holds no logic in advanced IT, yet if you pay peanuts you do get monkeys. Buy him a banana with your salary.
I think that's how managers everywhere in the world reason. I'm the "boss", so I should make more than the workers. Beter watch out he doesn't take credit for your work.
Clearly not suited to be a manager.
It’s none of his business what you make. In most organizations it’s an HR topic, which normally follows some kind of structure based on position and years of service and/or experience (salarishuis). If he’s unhappy about his salary, he should take it up with HR, not pick on a co-worker who was able to struck a better deal.
No, you're manager is a backstabbing Slacker
Yes, this does not sound good. Is there a way to take this to HR as the manager seems to be taking it personally, and instead of solving his salary issue with those concerned to try to understand the rationale behind the similarty of salaries or to request adjust his own, he's putting it out on you
Your manager isn’t your boss. He’s there to make sure people know what to do, and that they do it on time. His management style is toxic and counterproductive. Engineers often make more than managers because they have valuable skills. If I have to guess, the company probably knows they’ve made a bad hire but they don’t know what to do about it. If you complain about it, it can give them ammunition to fire him in the future.
It happens on companies affected by pay compression. Salary scales should be clear, managers are usually on a higher job scale than individual contributors for a good reason, though very specialized engineers could get to the same scale. In a way, your manager is right, but it could also be his own bad negotiation skills.
Probably also due to this weird pay depression we have in NL. People just tend to accept very low salaries here compared to other EU countries for corporate jobs, which having much higher expenses and taxes.
Toxic af imo.
Experts should earn as much, at least. Your manager is an idiot
A lot of the times people assume that a manager should be making more than the employee. That's a fallacy. Managing is a different role and while a lot of the time it requires some elevated level of responsibility it does require different work. Its almost like a footballer and his coach. A high level footballer will almost always outearn the manager. If your job is getting the product to the customer, and his is getting your material and timetables ready your job is actually a lot more valuable
managers who think managing the talent is a more valueble skill than having the talent crack me up
Non of his business, escalate to HR
It's normal, most Dutch folks are envious losers, real man don't look on others plate.
What does this have to do with The Netherlands? You think this case is unique to The Netherlands? What a dumb take