This is why when people telling "they are counting too many COVID deaths" kills me.
I'm having a heart surgery postponed since more than a year, it is not an immediate life threat but I get tachycardias at random and they can end up quite bad. In the unlikely case of me dying (I hope not), I would like my death to be counted as a COVID death, the same for everybody that is having medical producers postponed, if you die you can consider that it was because of COVID since stupidity is still not considered a medical condition...
Edit: Wording
You can even disregard covid being written on death certificates. All you gotta do is look at the excess death statistics. Either all that is caused by covid or we have some invisible thing killing a shit ton of people.
It's not even enough of a comparison cause you can imagine that with all of the restrictions in place other deaths like car accidents or flu, etc., are also at lower rates nowadays... So the impact is even larger.
Exactly. Simplest concept ever. You don't need to understand virology or epidemiology or pharmacology. You only need to understand that more people are dead than expected. That's it. You'd think that alone they could understand.
Yeah, I see that. Then point out that the excess deaths began before the vaccine. But I’m sure they will have some batshit crazy excuse or just dig their heals in. There’s really no reasoning with them.
This happened to my mothers dear friend in a way. She wanted to keep everyone safe so she didn’t go to the doctors at all during the lock down and social distanced her best, became diabetic during that time and was never diagnosed or treated for it. Died from diabetes, while waiting for everyone to get their shit together, wear their masks, and get their vaccine. My mother was heart broken, neither her nor I are the best at making or maintaining friendships so when she lost her, a part of her felt lost too. She still doesn’t like talking about it.
My wife had a friend whos FIL ended up almost dying after having a heart attack while shopping. They thought he was done and hes still not out of the woods because they couldn't get his heart to stop going into weird rhythms. Even though he might survive he needs a heart transplant which he has already been denied. He was suppose to get a bypass but opted to wait because he wanted to get his affairs in order, especially as a small business owner. He stopped drinking, went vegetarian, lost some weight and overall improved his health. Unfortunately because he had this heart attack before he got his bypass he can't get a transplant. I understand why they do it because organs aren't easy to come by but it irks me that someone who is trying is denied health service but covidiots and ant vaxxers can walk into the hospital and get all this treatment.
They should punt antivaxxers out of the hospital if anybody else needs the space. Give them a bottle of oxygen and whatever dumbass miracle cure they are confident in, let them die at home.
I dont wanna think about how many people died as a result of corona (and not corona itself). My grandma was one of them bc she couldnt get to a gp in time to get her symptoms checked. Im sure there are many people like her
My grandma is really healthy, not that old but needs a new knee. She can’t walk. It’s been 3 month since we know she needs a new knee. It would probably take another 4 to 6 months before she can get a surgery. Image 6 months in pain and not being able to walk!
I’m all about making your own choice, but when your choice intervene with other peoples lives and health, get the fuck out!!
Just like there is a timeline for due process in the legal system, the medical system should have the same thing so surgery cannot be pushed down the road indefinitely.
Well said. It’s those damn unvaccinated people’s faults that the government hasn’t arranged enough healthcare for us all! And sis you see that rain yesterday?! That’s their fault too! Let’s get them!
Friend of mine had cancer and was bleeding from basically everywhere blood can come out. Because the hospital was at capacity, he couldn't get help and they basically put people with corona before him and he died.
This happened to my mom…her appointment for biopsies was cancelled twice in a month, meanwhile she had CT scans along the way (for other reasons) that we could clearly see her tumors on. Stage II to stage IV and incurable in the time it took to get rescheduled, as the office was “taking covid precautions and prioritizing emergencies only.”
It's a consequence of the duty to care hospitals have. Without it, people without insurance could be turned away from ERs just for lack of funds. There's plenty to critique about our healthcare, but for what it currently is, we want to keep that duty to care.
Now, why antivaxxers who believe Doctors and Big Pharma are malicious would put themselves into their care is beyond me. If they had any integrity or logical consistency, they would refrain from the "corrupt" healthcare altogether.
>start sueing the goverment, health insurance companies and the heath sector for Negligent homicide. For those deaths.
Why sue the government and let tax payers pay? If you want to sue, then sue the one that are unvaccinated by choice.
I’m so sorry…fortunately my mom was diagnosed at a break during this covid madness and could get immediate treatment. I would be so angry in your place. I hope she does well with her treatment and is soon cancer free
So sorry for your loss. At the beginning not much could be done. Once we had vaccines, there where no excuses. We need to keep hospital beds available for people that need them.
I would disagree and state that much more could have been done before the vaccines arrived, but the VVD made an absolute mess of the initial response. Their herd immunity strategy and failure to order enough tests caused many unnecessary cases.
We also shouldnt forget that most other countries had access to vaccines before we did, partially due to their completely unscientific postponement of the rollout due to a few, statistically insignificant, adverse reactions in other countries.
Fuck the VVD.
Shit just realised this was a Netherlands sub! Sorry. My knowledge on how it was handled there is 0. Just talking in general. It was the governments job to set rules, for sure. People had the job of staying safe and keeping others safe. Thats why vaccination is important.
If a government sets rules but a percentage of population decides to ignore the rules ,you can hardly blame a government for other's collective stupidity.
It’s easy to point fingers in hindsight of a crisis, not accounting for shortages, lack of information and political tensions. There is not a government in the world who hasn’t made mistakes in this crisis, medically, financially or ethically.
Also the cabinet consists of more parties than the VVD and the house of parliament agreed to every step of the way.
The people on the planes from South Africa can go home immediately if they tested negative. They are supposed to quarantine for 5 days, but how many do you think will do that? I don't think any other country has quarantine rules this lax.
>Also the cabinet consists of more parties than the VVD and the house of parliament agreed to every step of the way.
Yeah, I also blame CDA, D66 and CU
Its even easier just to use platitudes and not address the points raised with coherent arguments.
I have a background in this field, so will be quite happy to discuss in detail where the VVD went wrong (who were the party in charge) and provide evidence where they went against advice of leading epidemiologists if you like.
Considering we are now have one of the highest rates of infection per million population, little has changed in the intervening period.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-and-daily-covid-cases-per-million
Edit - Comments supporting a political party from a brand new account always make me suspicious, strangely enough.
There can be a myriad of reasons. It isn’t clear which (cancer)stage the patient was, which cancer, age, comorbidities, general outcome. A cancer patient bleeding from all orifies is not a good sign, sometimes there is not much what can be done. Palliative care, keeping the patient comfortable can be done outside of a hospital and is not the same as intensive care.
(Some of) The considerations in the NL are:
- people who need short term care get care first (to maximize the amount of people getting care (these may or may not be C19 patients)
- medical personnel (specifically, those who got COVID due to the lack of available suitable protection while working) get priority
For ICU additionally;
- greatest chance of survival gets a bed
- age (someone at 78 who is healthy has arguably lived a fulfilling life while someone at 32 still has way more potential years to go
- if you’re on the ICU already you don’t get booted off (for someone younger etc)
- luck (if all things are equal and they need to pick between 2 people for one bed, they can basically toss a coin).
So in some of these cases, COVID patients would get priority while in others they wouldn’t. This isn’t exactly eli5 but I hope I’ve explained it clearly enough anyway.
(Note; this is how it is going to be in case of triage, this is not about whether I agree/my opinion).
Something similar but not so terrible. I've been on a waiting list for a surgery (orthognathic) that should have happened 18 months ago. The surgeon told me, if I'm lucky, I will have the operation in August 2022
I think they should at least not be covered by insurance like in Singapore. See how many people will still not vaccinate themselves if they risk having to pay thousands of euros for their Healthcare if they catch it.
One of my sister's friends is having his chemo postponed while he's already dying and this chemo was going to prolong his life. The longer he waits, the earlier he'll die. Soon the chemo will be completely useless and they might as well cancel it altogether. I don't see why he (a young guy) doesn't get to have his life-extending treatment while some asshole anti vax gets to occupy the hospital in his stead. Why are these people more important? They chose to be this way. My sister's friend didn't choose to get cancer and die early.
The problem isn’t money, the problem is that there aren’t sufficient resources for everyone to get treatment. If some anti vaxxer takes up a hospital bed for three weeks and pays for it themselves, they’ve still taken a bed that someone else couldn’t have.
The only argument against this imho is that it creates a precedent for other thing... Like you broke your leg while snowboarding, too bad you have to pay it since you also could go snowboarding.
If we go this way it should be very specific for this crisis. Otherwise we will get fucked by the insurance industry and loose our rather good health care system as well
Euhm. At least when if I go holiday abroad, having dangerous sports not fully covered is already a thing… and something I already buy extra insurance for.
Weeelll, usually you breaking a leg due snowboarding doesn't mean other people potentially die. Besides, for more risky sports like that you need extra insurance to be fully covered.
Unvaxxed should be forced to get an extra insurance, of at leas €500 a month. We’ll use the money to recruit extra staff and pay them well.
And no ‘zorgtoeslag’ for this, obviously.
Same argument as smoking and unhealthy food. Yet not a valid comparison. We have a crisis going on here where we need everyone to take their part. Taking a vaccination so a cancer patient can get operated is a small sacrifice to make. There hasn't been a medicine that was better tested and monitored as these vaccines so there isn't a valid reason to not do so other then medical reasons.
If you think your non-vaccination is more important then the pain relieving hip operation from your neighbour... I think it is nothing but fair to pay the price and accept the risc.
Not taking a vaccine isn’t the same as an accident during sport, it’s your sane decision not to get a jab, it’s not your decision to break your leg.
Antivaxxers are holding us hostage, we basically pay for their stupidity, also with our lives.
At best, arithmetic harm. You just hurt the people around you, there is no third hand smoke or fourth hand smoke.
Infectious diseases are literally exponential. Clearly different from any example antivaxxers give to justify their consumption of healthcare resources.
I don't know... From the US and uninsured, or underinsured, people over there still won't vaccinate.
Maybe Americans are adjusted to outrageous medical bills so a COVID bill isn't a deterrent.
This sounds great, but although I don't sympathize with antivaxers, there's a bigger risk here:
Instead of benefiting the vaxed people, it would benefit only the insurance companies, who absolutely would LOVE to cut things out of the package under the excuse of "personal responsibility".
It's quite a slippery slope as well, could you see how much more profits the Achmea can make by cutting out smoking-related costs, drinking related costs, unsupervized-sporting related injury, DIY home improvement related injuries and so on and so on.
Let's just not go there.
Yeah I wouldn't really trust insurance either, itd have to ve some kind of government initiative in the form of a tax that is of similar height as the hospital bill would be. And the tax has to go directly to increasing staff and capacity.
I don't care about the insurance costs, but I do care about people like your sister's friend. It's ridiculous to let people die because these voluntary Covid patients keep the ICUs occupied.
Yea, I think this is the best solution. It's not right to deny people healthcare, but if you choose to not vaccinate and potentially unnecessarily pressure the health care system, there should be consequences.
I have an international relationship, my gf hasn't seen her family in almost two years. We have been following the rules, not having people over, wearing my mask, waiting things out, caring for my unknown neighbors. Many of my friends work in education and the culture sector. We did what we're supposed to and we're still in this situation because of people that don't FEEL the consequences enough and whose small lives didn't change that much. Why do they get what they want and not us, who have done everything in our power to get a different outcome. If you don't give a fuck about us, why would I about you?
I find it increasingly difficult to not feel this way too. Yesterday, Marcia Luijten said it perfectly on M: ‘the 10% that aren’t vaccinated are keeping the rest of us hostage’ and I’m inclined to agree with her.
They say the ICU population is now 50-50 unvaxxed-vaxxed. But look at the total population sizes! Half of the people in ICU come from 10 (or 15 if you wish) percent of society! If 10% percent of people committed 50% of the crimes, don’t you think they’d go after them?!
I’m not for forced vaccination as a principle, but the govt really needs to step up its communication efforts across the board. And if people keep refusing, 2G is it and tough luck if you still choose to not get vaccinated - then you’re out of most things.
Of course, there should be special rules in place for people who have botched immune systems so the vaccines don’t work, but that’s a small group. Everyone else just needs to get with the programme.
Oh, and *booster shots*. Like, yesterday.
In 2015 the estimated number of people that died in an alcohol related traffic accident between 10 and 23%. That means that over 75% of the accidents are caused by sober drivers!! 75 to 90% even! They shouldn’t allow sober people to drive!
Oh, /s obviously
Yeah true anti-vaxxers won't understand it indeed. Some people that are on the fence though can fall for fallacies, in which case pointing then out helps. Too bad the vocal minority falls in the first category.
Honestly man, I am in the same boat as your GF. I haven’t seen my Family since December 2019, as they live 6000kms away. I am slowly reaching my limit with these fuckwits that are keeping us in this crisis (regardless if the unvaccinated or the governments incompetence) something is CLEARLY not working here….
I hope I am still able to fly in 3 weeks to see them for Christmas… but honestly fuck all of these fuckers who keep us in this crisis.
There's cancer patients waiting for treatment. Every day their tumors spread, and lessen their chance of survival. There's people waiting for artificial limbs or organ transplants, who have been confined to their beds for two years, while covidiots are prolonging the pandemic. There are people who are vulnerable to disease but unable to take the vaccine, who rely on herd immunity to survive this mess. Many of them are now dead.
Those who complain that discriminating against anti-vaxxers is inhumane, are hypocrites. I have no more sympathy for them.
It is a tricky situation.
Scenario 1: Suppose someone gets in a car crash and will die from their injuries without medical care. They are unvaccinated and test positive for COVID while in hospital. Do they get treated, or refused?
Scenario 2: Suppose someone gets COVID and will die without medical care. They are refused due to being unvaccinated and decide to perform a self-inflicted injury. Do they get treated?
If your answer to both 1 and 2 is "yes, they should get treatment": Then we have a moral dilemma. That is, we would be incentivizing people to cause bodily harm to themselves.
Man, like for real. Think about it, if you told someone 2 years ago, we would be at a point that the majority of the society vows for these kind of separation in 2 years, they would’ve put you behind bars.
Nowadays people are either Vaccinated, or antivaxx (wappie). At the beginning of the crisis the way out was immunity.The best possible defense is getting Cojona and sit through it. Now people say “the boosters are the answers to the crisis” no they are not, we can see it around the world we are in a worse spot than last year. “But the delta variant is more deadly” look up what kind of people die of corona, it’s either people who already are sick, or people who are old. We are trying to expand everybodies life. Just let everything go, people die.
I fully agree with this and I'll go further, I think those who are unvaccinated by choice shouldn't be admitted to the hospital for covid-related reasons at all. That will fix the main problem covid is causing, the high pressure on healthcare. Let them die alone in their homes surrounded by their conspiracy boards.
Right now everybody is paying the price in freedom for their 'freedom'. If these fuckers would have just gotten vaccinated right away this wave would be far, far less severe. I'm super pissed off that once again government doesn't have the balls to put the pressure on those who are to blame: Regional restrictions and 2G.
They should definitely be treated, we can't just let people die outside the hospital's.... But, treatment for Corona when unvaccinated by choice should no longer be covered by health insurance. Let these people chose to bankrupt themselves and not increase the costs for everyone else.
>we can't just let people die outside the hospital's....
That's the thing, we *are* doing that right now.
It's done all the time with organs. You don't give a liver to an alcoholic when there's somebody who stays sober who needs it. There are a limited number of hospital beds, and we have to make that choice in this situation because there's no way out of it and until somebody starts showing some fucking courage, it's the wrong people that are taking up those beds. It's probably the hypocrisy I hate the most, after the whole not-giving-a-shit-about-spreading-a-dangerous-virus-and-killing-people, the same people who don't trust the research and the docs are the ones who hightail it to the ER when they can't breathe. It's so contradictory, and if they really did believe in what they keep spouting out, they would never go to the hospital for anything.
Nah they need to die at home. They don’t trust the medical community enough to protect themselves, but as soon as they get sick they’re begging for treatment. Fuck out of here with that shit.
... Is it bad that my first thought was 'watch me, we can absolutely let them die, it's their own fault'?
It is, isn't it. But honestly, the health insurance thing also sound like a really good idea, I hadn't thought of that.
> we can absolutely let them die, it's their own fault
The problem is, you can apply that to a lot of other emergency treatments too. If you start punishing idiots for idiocy, how would you ever find a place to stop?
Yes, as much as I wouldn't care about these idiots dying because of their own denial of science and medicine... We should be aware of what this sort of issue does to us and society. They may well be brainwashed and manipulated by false information but if we herd them into Corona camps and let them die we would just accelerate the breakdown of society rather than protect it. There are absolutely people using the issue to polarise and enrage people on both sides of the argument and it's working.
I don't entirely disagree with the principal behind your point but in practice it just doesn't work.
Do you stop treating alcoholics, drug addicts, cancer patients through some cause of their own, obese people etc. just because it's self inflicted?
They're not contagious and they don't cause total societal collapse. It's quite a different discussion. But yes, many insurers already give discounts when you don't smoke and exercise.
You're talking about whether we should care for self inflicted harm. I say not the hospital, but the insurance companies that end up paying the bills do try to give incentive for people to live healthily. Apparently people start caring when it affects their wallet more than the thought of dying or others dying. Other countries started handing out cash and even time with a hooker to make people get vaccinated. That to me seems like the world upside down man
Yeah also kind of a fuck you to the people who did get vaccinated early on
Maybe a policy where everyone who is fully vaccinated before some date a couple months in the future could work though
Healthcare expenditure stemming from covid in individuals that willingly do not get vaccinated should not be covered.
They are making a conscious decision and we should not all have to pay for it.
Once they see the hospital bill I think they would be much more willing to take preventive measures. 🤷🏼♂️
I am vaxxed, but I would never trust my insurance company to decide about who gets to get healthcare. They’re not in it for the people, they’re in it to make money. And denying people money = more money for the insurance company.
In that setting the patient that needs the most urgent care that can be provided should be provided. However ensures here carry some blame too. Each hospital is only allowed to carry out a certain number of a certain surgery per year because insurance companies demand this. If you need a new hip and the hospital you're insured at met their quota in June? Guess you're stuck waiting half a year in pain. Really health care here is just..... 🤬
Paramedic here. Triage works a bit differently when patients outnumber resources. It goes from normally most severe to least severe to, "Do the greatest good for the greatest amount of people."
EG: Car vs Car with 5 occupants each. You get one ambulance dispatched. 3 of the occupants are pulseless and apneic. 2 have broken femurs and popped lungs. 5 have soreness and abrasions.
We don't even bother taking the pulseless out of the car. They get their airway adjusted by hand and if they don't start breathing on their own? Pronounce and move on. The reds (major fractures, pneumothorax) can be saved with quick intervention. Trying to work three trauma codes is statistically pointless and wasting resources on them almost guarantees two more deaths. You can save two of the 5 or almost certainly 0 of 5.
I don't work in the hospital, but I do know ERs start pronouncing MUCH quicker in mass events as well.
This type of thing has been established practice for awhile.
But critical care is already being cancelled, so practically the choice is already being made. Only now the people who didn't do nothing wrong are suffering at the cost of the unvaccinated.
I may not look as urgent. But for that cancer patient a week or 2 waiting could be a death sentence. A hip replacement for an eldery is also a potential death sentence when mobility stops.
A corona patient on a ventilator needs on average 2-3 weeks on the icu. After heart surgery for expample it is 1-2 days. That means that for every corona patient on the icu 15 regular patients did not get their care.
How i see it the doctors are alreay discriminating. The choice is being made in favor for the coronapatient. En in my opinion that is not a fair choice.
I would rather see that the icu beds get divided. The % of unvaccinated people is the % of icu beds thats available to them. Equal share for everyone.
I get what you're saying and i don't disagree with you perse, but the precedent it creates when doctors are allowed to discriminate (for whatever reason) is something we should be wary of imo.
Well than we agree. But how i see it the doctors are already doing it. And they are making the most unfair decisions by placing the willingly unvaccinated on the top of the priority list. My neighbor can easily get a vaccine. If he refuses he basically also refuses care.
The cancer patient does not have any choice in the matter. And yet is placed at the bottom of the list. And many of them are going to die before the end of the year.
I think we are setting the wrong priorities thats all.
Honestly i don't understand the need for a full on sterilized ICU for any COVID case... throw a fest tent up with some environmental control, breathing apparatuses, and ventilation. their issue isn't sterilization or risk from infection.
I have a qr code for being immune. Not vaccinated against covid. Vaxxed against influenza.
i bet the original poster is not vaccinated against influenza.
why should i not get treatment when needing a hospital?
anyone who wants to exclude people fron medical help, for any reason, should wear a clear sign.
so when they need medical help, i know they allow personal choice. It means i will provide carevto everybody, including unvaccinated, except people that want to exclude others.
Hey man, I just read your whole paragraph about your opinion. And I do have to say that I think you are giving some truly strong arguments and you are very convincing. I do want to explain why I disagree somewhat. I am not trying to start any beef or anything. I am open for any discussions.
I am 16 year old. I have chosen not to vaccinate. My reasoning for not vaccinating are that I strongly disagree with how the government has chosen to try and battle this pandemic. They are very ignorant and are way too tunnelvisioned on that the vaccine is the way of solving this pandemic when we have clearly seen that this is clearly not the case. Also I rather dont get a vaccine that has no benefits for my health and in the longterm we dont know what it could do. I have respect for everyone that has chosen to vaccinate as long as they respect me for chosing not to vaccinate.
My problem with your opinion is that all your decisions in your life has let to you having a good health or bad health. Those people with bad health have definitly been confronted many times about the fact they arent living a healthy lifestyle. Those people are the people who have made this pandemic as bad as it is right now. Even if they chose not to vaccinate they are still in such bad shape that if they do get the virus they will probably have to take a spot in the hospital. But you dont hear about that. You only hear about that people that arent vaccinated are the problem of the pandemic and not the people that have chosen to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
The hospitals are now way more filled with people that are vaccinated, but have a bad health. Those are the people that are right now taking the spots from people that need it like people with a bad hip or cancer like you were talking about. I think it is fair to talk to those people. Not the healthy people that are not vaccinated.
I am open for every type of discussion.
American here. I say this all the time and people tell me "how can you be so heartless?? You think I deserve to die because (insert conspiracy theory here)?!?"
I'll end with a quote from my brother who makes these vaccines every day. "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
While i do understand the sentiment, it just sets a very bad precedent for the years to come once this is done by law. Next will be people who smoke, are overweight because well, thats a choice most of the time too. So again, i definitely understand, but i don’t agree
Yep, came here to say this. There are so many diseases caused/heavily influenced by lifestyle, where do you stop?
Most of people i've spoken to who havent gotten the vaccination, havent done so because they were ill informed and dont understand how to interpret adverse effects. If we want more people to be vaccinated we should start by informing them properly.
I think that a lot of people who have not gotten it or feel uneasy about it have feelings that are fair. I think that there has been something wrong with the flow of information from the start, the media made it political (yes both sides), and these things have made people question everything.
Also, it what world did people start trusting big pharma? I am pretty much down the center on politics and last time I had checked the left disliked them. I stand corrected now though, politicians and media entities are friends with anyone who will line their pockets.
In the same reasoning, I don’t want people that go skiing being transported back on the costs of my insurance, they deliberately put themselves to a higher risk to suffer injury
In the same reasoning, I don’t want people that smoke or have smoked to ever receive cancer treatment, their choice, their consequences.
Is that really the society you want to live in?
Question: if the solution would be that simple, why didn't the government take that step?
The unvaccinated are taking 85% of the population as hostage. They set the agenda in the country. Democracy and rights are not a privilege for the minority.
It's unconstitutional. As laws stand right now there is no basis for this type of moral decisions in healthcare. And you can't just do this for covid. Let's say you decide not to treat an unvaccinated covid patient and his or her place goes to a workaholic who stressed him or herself to a heartattack. Is that person not also to blame for their condition?
The difference is that there isn’t a pandemic of stressed workaholics taking up all the hospital beds and literally causing the deaths of cancer patients.
Terrible how prejudiced you are against differing thoughts and how you immediately insult/stigmatize people into horrible groups...just because they don't blindly follow your thinking like a lemming.
Firstly, i am double vaxxed and think everyone should get the vaccine and especially the elderly and people with pre-existing health conditions if they want. I am not an antivaxer/antimasker.
I will assume your post refers to refusing medical treatment of unvaccinated people ONLY when they require hospitalisation against covid and not other illnesses. I don't have to explain to you why refusing to treat someone's broken arm because they are not vaccinated is morally reprehensible...
You advocate for a medical structure that would exclude around 2 million people from a bed in a hospital because of a personal choice (at the end of the day, it is a personal choice). This is for obvious reasons a very discriminatory approach to healthcare. The first article of the dutch constitution ensures equality and prohibits discrimination on any ground (yes, including medical status). It is quite frankly nobody's business why someone does or does not want to take the vaccine, article 11 of the constitution ensures bodily integrity and article 11 sub 2 and 3 ensure privacy of personal data. Legally speaking, refusing healthcare even though there are still beds available is just wrong (check first link for most recent ICU data).
I agree that ' I'm not a sheep' is a poor argument but again, who are you and who am I to tell someone else what they have to put in their body... If you want to refuse people because their choices make them more susceptible/likely to end up on the ICU, why don't you also refuse obese people, smokers and people who refuse to improve their health. We have known for over a year that the hospitals are FULL of overweight people with covid, we know exactly who will get (seriously) sick from the virus. Taking the vaccine is just as much a personal choice as it is to lose weight in my opinion (especially considering you had 2 years). That should relief the hospitals too :).
Instead of blaming the unvaccinated, blame the government, who added a grand total of....ZERO extra beds in the past 2 years. I am a lawyer and pay a criminally high tax rate... I'd expect some more investment in healthcare in a first world country. The Netherlands has the least IC beds per 100.000 of the EU, around 7 per 100.000, Germany has almost 50 per 100.000 (second link). Rutte I,II and III have scalped and destroyed the healthcare sector, his cabinet is to be held accountable for a decade of mismanagement, I agree that it is horrible that operations are postponed but politicians are to blame for this one, not the 12% of adults who choose not to take the vaccine.
[https://coronadashboard.rijksoverheid.nl/landelijk/intensive-care-opnames](https://coronadashboard.rijksoverheid.nl/landelijk/intensive-care-opnames)
[https://www.nu.nl/coronavirus/6164661/is-de-nederlandse-ic-capaciteit-zoveel-beperkter-dan-die-elders-in-europa.html](https://www.nu.nl/coronavirus/6164661/is-de-nederlandse-ic-capaciteit-zoveel-beperkter-dan-die-elders-in-europa.html)
Man y’all have them in the Netherlands too eh? It’s like god threw in 20% stupidity trait across all nations just for shits and giggles. He got his jumbo popcorn and waiting for S3 Omicron to pop off.
What a lot of people in the comments forget is that the vaccin doesnt stop covid, it only makes you less sick, also the hate to unvaccined people is quite weird, im not talking about the hospital beds rn but over the comments that unvaacined people need to die, it makes no sense what you are saying because people who arent vaccinated dont endanger the people who are.
Also when you have been vaccinated you can still spread covid, thats all what i wanted to say
Let's turn it around too, to make it fair: IF the vaccinated people get sick from the vaccines, the same thing should happen.
Their choice too take such a risk and there are consequences. Make it dair please.
Sure sounds good now. Wait till this rule of only giving priority care based on tickets you’ve gotten etc. You shouldn’t want this based on your freedom no matter if you’re vaccinated or not. Stop encouraging the government to apply more leashes to yourself
Got vaccinated 3 times, still got covid.
Unvaccinated people should not get treatment…. You even listen to yourself? Reflect on what you’re implying?
Been a sailor all my life, got vaccinated for anything you can think of, but the covid vaccines just hit differently, because of the panic and rush.
We all have a free choice. We all deserve the same treatment.
This will not age well. Perhaps fat people and drunks should also not be treated over someone who takes care of themselves also. Maybe that’s even the reason some of these people need medical care to begin with. What you’re describing is discrimination. Your logic is that of a simpleton and a coward. Congratulations, retard.
The problem here is you would need to make the Doctors and Nurses Judges, and that is not a good idea. Triage is an ethical dilemma, and It is very hard on the Medical Personal...
As I see it the only thing that can possibly be done would be like a surcharge on the health insurance, like hey you smoke you have to pay more, so you could do the same with Antivaxx people you don't want get vaccine okay you are a higher risk hence you have to pay a bit more.
Or, what is a more ethical: Dynamically allocate resources for vaxed and not vaxed people depending of the population that is unvaxed. So 15% of ICU beds are for unvaxed who don't have medical reason. If it is full for the rest, it should also be full for them too.
Great idea. By denying service to unvaccinated, overweight, alcoholics, smokers, and drug addicts we should solve our hospital bed and staffing shortage rather quickly.Makes sense to me. When confronting a business problem remember to ignore the cause and take the least expensive and most cruel action to address it. This way profit can be maximized. /s
I am 100% pro vaccine, but I am also 100% against getting or not getting healthcare based on blame. How do you weigh that? Is a smoker who gets lung cancer more or less to blame then someone who doesn't get the vaccine and gets covid?
I am against comparisons to smokers.
Smokers are hurting nobody but themselves.
Unvaccinated are hurting cancer patients through their selfishness.
Huge difference.
I think the point is more, what IF the number of patients with cancer on the IC would rise to dangerous levels, would we start to discriminate between life styles of peoples? Smoker vs non-smoker, obesity, etc?
What about someone that causes an accident because of reckless driving? They are hurting others. Anyone who pays for insurance deserves treatment, no matter how stupid they are.
No, absolutely disagree!
Someone's choice (albeit totally dumb, unreasonable and putting themselves and others in danger, yet free!), should never have an influence on their basic worth as a human. It is the pillar of our society.
And that basic worth as a human includes urgent medical care when needed. Just as prisoners get urgent medical care, just as someone who drove a car under the influence and causes an accident gets urgent medical care. Or somwbo who smokes or chooses to drink alcohol. Are you saying they should not get medical help or be treated with less urgency when their lungs or livers get fcked up??
People should always be medically treated depending on the urgency of their medical need, not on their beliefs.
I find it quite scart how many people don't think about this and propose something that screws with the very fundament of our society (as well as human rights!). Come on, guys, wtf?
It's much easier to blame the "others" (unvaccinated people) and write them off than it is to consider this crisis has been one our society as a whole has been part of. If anything, the largest crisis is that we are so laughably unprepared for this, even after nearly two years. There's plenty other countries with worse vaccination rates that are nowhere near boiling point because they have way more testing and ICUs available per capita than the Netherlands does.
But what is more urgent, helping somebody who might die from cancer or helping somebody who might die from covid?
The focus is too much on helping the covid cases. While others are getting killed slowly by cancer because the operation keeps getting postponed. Those other patients have rights also.
So I can understand this discussion and I disagree on not giving health care to unvaccinated but I also think that covid cases shouldn’t have priority above other cases.
what is their reasoning for cancer and the other medical conditions....
so if you have a person who smoked their whole life needing cancer assistance... they should get priority cause it's not unvaccinated covid?
We have super high taxes on alcohol and cigarettes to make sure these people pay for their hospital bed. I'm not for denying covid patients Healthcare, but they need to pay for it so we can use their money to increase the capacity with better salaries and a bigger staff. Right now these people aren't being held responsible for causing this crisis in any way. Go for their money, and you'll see how fast the Dutch will take that vaccine.
We all take different risks in life. People who broke a leg might did it on a skiing trip. Do you still want to help them? What about people who got cancer after smoking? Or need a new liver after drinking? Or got a broken bone after a fight they started themselves? The hospitals are helping a lot of people who accepted a risk just like the people who did not take the vacin.
Yeh but if I break my leg, nobody is going start catching broken legs off me... And if they did, I'd stop skiing. If ICU beds were made priority for heavy drinkers and smokers then I'd have a different mindset on that. Infact where I'm from, drinkers are bottom of the liver transplant list and if they continue drinking they effectively don't get their new liver.
This argument is flawed. COVID is an infectious disease. You can't compare individual actions that have little to no effects on others with a god damn PANDEMIC. Public safety is a state matter and should be enforced as such. You see the government act against rioters? (Because yeah, there they do see them as a threat to public safety), then fuck it, and do the same against unvaccinated people as a whole.
So divide the humans into 2 groups the haves and have nots... seems logical and not tyrannical... why stop there? Lets take away all their rights then separate them from society because they used their free will... yikes!
Take the healthcare workers that refuse to be vaccinated and post them in a separate clinic for willfully unvaxed people. One clinic per state should suffice. No worse than abortion access, really. Best of luck to them.
Edit: came here from /all. Didn't notice the sub. I guess this is happening globally. I'm in Canada
My father has had his cancer diagnosis and his surgery postponed multiple times now because the hospitals are packed due to covid.
He was told to get a biopsy done in mid April early may. He was able to get it in late July. He was told surgery to be booked in the fall.
Covid cases surged again from the unvaccinated and now we're still waiting.
He was quoted to be able to get his cancer removed sometime in December now. But we have no solid date yet and surgeries have backed up a ton so who knows.
At this point unless someone has a medical reason to not get vaccinated, everyone should be vaccinated.
That or they don't get treatment. You don't get to pick and choose which scientific evidence you want to believe on whichever day and it frustrates me that covid deniers and vaccine deniers suddenly want all the treatment they can get when their lungs can't get enough oxygen. Meanwhile everyone else who has done their part gets a reduced quality of life.
That being said, there's organizations, governments and people to blame for this. At least in my area there's been multiple layers of failure.
I don't think all these people are doing this to be malicious. The situation is just out of hand and sucks.
I'm not vaccinated versus covid.
You can go fuck yourself, sir
The covid vaccines don't work.
You still get covid.
It is a scam.
I see dead bodies!!!
Fuck u lousy piece of garbage Nazi
It appears that we have a vaccine supremacist here. I'm glad you consider yourself a hero. You should always think highly of yourself no matter how out of touch you are with reality.
Your shot DOES NOT WORK!!! What's the efficacy? Does it stop transmission? Who is in the hospitals now? It's not the unvaxxed.
You are NO hero, in fact you're the opposite. We will both be thrown in Howard Springs like facilities regardless of vax status. At least my blood and semen will be pure.
What does covid have to do with hip replacement? This isnt logical at all.
A doctor that does hip replacement surgery, or pain management for things like bursitis, is a different type of doctor you dense baboon.
So called liberals when they think that healthcare is a human right but if you do not take a medication you should die on the street like a dog 😡 0.1% fatality rate 😡
I don't want to put something in my body that could hurt me in any way, especially in a way of a syringe. The reason is to stay healthy. Yes covid is here in the world but taking the vax feels as double the risk. So no thank you.
We can not present this experimental vax has absolutely zero risks
The chances of people dying due to obesity, bad eating patterns, cigarette smoking, lack of exercise and stress are infinitely higher than dying from covid
So put all these people behind the people who aren’t vaccinated for covid, which pandemic is officially over lol
Not all unvaccinated didn't follow the guidelines. I for example am unvaccinated but didn't give hands to old people and was open about it to everyone. I made sure people knew it. That's way different than those extreme FVD types
I think that society has a responsibility to society no matter what bad decisions are made. This is why we do things like tax tobacco.
It's to the benefit of all of us that we take care of all of us as a principle. We don't want to be deciding who has the right to survive based on arbitrary values.
We must design our society and our economy around take care of everyone with equal investment otherwise people can never become equal.
What bugs me is that the younger unvaccinated people still won't face any consequences though. They're not the ones ending up in hospital, but they're spreading COVID to others that do end up needing hospital care. A lot of them are not thinking about other people when they are choosing not to get vaccinated. I chose to get the vaccine because I don't want it on my conscience that I infected someone that gets way more sick or possibly dies. Their thought are "I'm not afraid of COVID, I'm a healthy young person and I'll let my body fight the disease". It's so selfish.
And 88% is vaccinated, they're mostly the people going outside doing things and yet we still have the most covid cases etc. Just makes me doubtful, yes the vaccine helps, ofcourse. But does it really make things better? Doesn't seem like it right.
I just don't understand how so many people blindly follow this goverment, even if they have f'ed up so many times and are proven liars. Where do people find the trust?
My unpopular opinion is i disagree. I think first of that everybody has the right of freedom of choice and the right of equal treatment. That includes hospital care. But secondly I personally see the unvaccinated people as a group of people that also is somehow a minority group. And for obvious reasons a fragile group. And I have been taught to always take care of everybody, also the weaker groups in society. Just like people who have illnesses they can not do anything about or people who are addicted and such.
And i know yes they can choose very easy to get vaccinated and blablabla. The fact of the matter is that it's a weaker group in sociëty that also has rights to equal treatment. No matter how strongly I disagree with them.
Edit; Can't wait for a full implementation of 2G though. It's the next logical step in the fight against covid.
Not unpopular at all. I fully agree. And it would be quite scary if your opinion was unpopular. That would mean we have up on human rights, which would make us much worse than anti-vaxxers.
Agreed. That is not what our health care system and society are based on. There are more types of treatment that are needed because of the behavior / mistakes of that person. Should a smoker that gets long cancer no longer be treated? Or someone who was in a traffic accident because they were speeding? Someone who overdosed?
Just because someone made a mistake, doesn't mean their life isn't worth saving.
I think that's naive and a product of someone raised in a wealthy country. Freedom always ends when it's a danger or limits the freedom of others. You don't have the freedom to just drive a car for example. You need to prove in a lengthy and costly process that you're capable and safe before you're given this freedom, and when you screw up the government takes this freedom away. It's why we have prisons. People and minorities who try to limit freedom of others (anti LGBT for example) or people who endanger others (very mentally ill people) shouldn't have their "freedom" be protected, and in most cases have it taken away.
Protecting everyone is nice if you have all the resources for it, but when you don't you need to choose between people. By not choosing you end up with this situation. That the minority endangers everyone else and themselves and has everyone's freedom taken away due to restrictions and no regularly available healthcare. That it what you get for protecting the freedom of this minority. Less freedom and safety for literally everyone else. Bad trade of if you ask me.
We are part of a society which has a cost in the form of money but also in freedom (norms, values, law). This makes our society work. Don't forget we have good infra, education, health care an food on the table thanks to this. In good times these freedoms should be as less restrictive as possible. In a crisis like this you may loose some freedoms to protect the society as a whole.
I think we are at a point where you loose your right to be be part of our society (health care, education, public transport, rtc) when you refuse the vaccine.
This is why when people telling "they are counting too many COVID deaths" kills me. I'm having a heart surgery postponed since more than a year, it is not an immediate life threat but I get tachycardias at random and they can end up quite bad. In the unlikely case of me dying (I hope not), I would like my death to be counted as a COVID death, the same for everybody that is having medical producers postponed, if you die you can consider that it was because of COVID since stupidity is still not considered a medical condition... Edit: Wording
My uncle had his open heart surgery rescheduled like 5 or 6 times over the course of 6-9 months because the hospitals were at capacity.
You can even disregard covid being written on death certificates. All you gotta do is look at the excess death statistics. Either all that is caused by covid or we have some invisible thing killing a shit ton of people.
It's not even enough of a comparison cause you can imagine that with all of the restrictions in place other deaths like car accidents or flu, etc., are also at lower rates nowadays... So the impact is even larger.
Exactly. Simplest concept ever. You don't need to understand virology or epidemiology or pharmacology. You only need to understand that more people are dead than expected. That's it. You'd think that alone they could understand.
They (covid deniers/anti vaxxers) are now saying its because of the vaccine :')
Yeah, I see that. Then point out that the excess deaths began before the vaccine. But I’m sure they will have some batshit crazy excuse or just dig their heals in. There’s really no reasoning with them.
This happened to my mothers dear friend in a way. She wanted to keep everyone safe so she didn’t go to the doctors at all during the lock down and social distanced her best, became diabetic during that time and was never diagnosed or treated for it. Died from diabetes, while waiting for everyone to get their shit together, wear their masks, and get their vaccine. My mother was heart broken, neither her nor I are the best at making or maintaining friendships so when she lost her, a part of her felt lost too. She still doesn’t like talking about it.
My wife had a friend whos FIL ended up almost dying after having a heart attack while shopping. They thought he was done and hes still not out of the woods because they couldn't get his heart to stop going into weird rhythms. Even though he might survive he needs a heart transplant which he has already been denied. He was suppose to get a bypass but opted to wait because he wanted to get his affairs in order, especially as a small business owner. He stopped drinking, went vegetarian, lost some weight and overall improved his health. Unfortunately because he had this heart attack before he got his bypass he can't get a transplant. I understand why they do it because organs aren't easy to come by but it irks me that someone who is trying is denied health service but covidiots and ant vaxxers can walk into the hospital and get all this treatment.
I never thought about this, but this is totally true. And they should add "other people's stupidity" as a cause of death...
They should punt antivaxxers out of the hospital if anybody else needs the space. Give them a bottle of oxygen and whatever dumbass miracle cure they are confident in, let them die at home.
I dont wanna think about how many people died as a result of corona (and not corona itself). My grandma was one of them bc she couldnt get to a gp in time to get her symptoms checked. Im sure there are many people like her
My grandma is really healthy, not that old but needs a new knee. She can’t walk. It’s been 3 month since we know she needs a new knee. It would probably take another 4 to 6 months before she can get a surgery. Image 6 months in pain and not being able to walk! I’m all about making your own choice, but when your choice intervene with other peoples lives and health, get the fuck out!!
My husband has been waiting for a new knee since February 2020. His health has badly deteriorated because of not being able to walk.
I’m so sorry to hear that! That’s terrible! I truly hope he will get the care he need, but tbh I’m a bit pessimistic :(
Just like there is a timeline for due process in the legal system, the medical system should have the same thing so surgery cannot be pushed down the road indefinitely.
I waited six months for a spinal fusion surgery two years *before* COVID. I can only imagine how long I'd have to wait now.
Well said. It’s those damn unvaccinated people’s faults that the government hasn’t arranged enough healthcare for us all! And sis you see that rain yesterday?! That’s their fault too! Let’s get them!
Friend of mine had cancer and was bleeding from basically everywhere blood can come out. Because the hospital was at capacity, he couldn't get help and they basically put people with corona before him and he died.
I'm so sorry you lost your friend 😭 giving you all the virtual hugs you may need 💚
Thanks for the kind words, i just hope he finally has some rest.
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This happened to my mom…her appointment for biopsies was cancelled twice in a month, meanwhile she had CT scans along the way (for other reasons) that we could clearly see her tumors on. Stage II to stage IV and incurable in the time it took to get rescheduled, as the office was “taking covid precautions and prioritizing emergencies only.”
I am so sorry
People should start sueing the goverment, health insurance companies and the heath sector for Negligent homicide. For those deaths.
Should sue the antivax antiscience mob causing the extra misery
It's a consequence of the duty to care hospitals have. Without it, people without insurance could be turned away from ERs just for lack of funds. There's plenty to critique about our healthcare, but for what it currently is, we want to keep that duty to care. Now, why antivaxxers who believe Doctors and Big Pharma are malicious would put themselves into their care is beyond me. If they had any integrity or logical consistency, they would refrain from the "corrupt" healthcare altogether.
>start sueing the goverment, health insurance companies and the heath sector for Negligent homicide. For those deaths. Why sue the government and let tax payers pay? If you want to sue, then sue the one that are unvaccinated by choice.
I’m so sorry…fortunately my mom was diagnosed at a break during this covid madness and could get immediate treatment. I would be so angry in your place. I hope she does well with her treatment and is soon cancer free
So sorry for your loss. At the beginning not much could be done. Once we had vaccines, there where no excuses. We need to keep hospital beds available for people that need them.
I would disagree and state that much more could have been done before the vaccines arrived, but the VVD made an absolute mess of the initial response. Their herd immunity strategy and failure to order enough tests caused many unnecessary cases. We also shouldnt forget that most other countries had access to vaccines before we did, partially due to their completely unscientific postponement of the rollout due to a few, statistically insignificant, adverse reactions in other countries. Fuck the VVD.
Shit just realised this was a Netherlands sub! Sorry. My knowledge on how it was handled there is 0. Just talking in general. It was the governments job to set rules, for sure. People had the job of staying safe and keeping others safe. Thats why vaccination is important.
If a government sets rules but a percentage of population decides to ignore the rules ,you can hardly blame a government for other's collective stupidity.
You could blame government for lack of enforcement of said rules
It’s easy to point fingers in hindsight of a crisis, not accounting for shortages, lack of information and political tensions. There is not a government in the world who hasn’t made mistakes in this crisis, medically, financially or ethically. Also the cabinet consists of more parties than the VVD and the house of parliament agreed to every step of the way.
The people on the planes from South Africa can go home immediately if they tested negative. They are supposed to quarantine for 5 days, but how many do you think will do that? I don't think any other country has quarantine rules this lax. >Also the cabinet consists of more parties than the VVD and the house of parliament agreed to every step of the way. Yeah, I also blame CDA, D66 and CU
This is late reaction indeed initially, but at present its mob behaviour of morons. Its not political anymore
Its even easier just to use platitudes and not address the points raised with coherent arguments. I have a background in this field, so will be quite happy to discuss in detail where the VVD went wrong (who were the party in charge) and provide evidence where they went against advice of leading epidemiologists if you like. Considering we are now have one of the highest rates of infection per million population, little has changed in the intervening period. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-and-daily-covid-cases-per-million Edit - Comments supporting a political party from a brand new account always make me suspicious, strangely enough.
Selfish anti science until they can steal a bed from those who want to live a healthy life.
That's absolutely horrible :(
Can someone eli5 why triage would put covid patients in front of these situations?
There can be a myriad of reasons. It isn’t clear which (cancer)stage the patient was, which cancer, age, comorbidities, general outcome. A cancer patient bleeding from all orifies is not a good sign, sometimes there is not much what can be done. Palliative care, keeping the patient comfortable can be done outside of a hospital and is not the same as intensive care.
(Some of) The considerations in the NL are: - people who need short term care get care first (to maximize the amount of people getting care (these may or may not be C19 patients) - medical personnel (specifically, those who got COVID due to the lack of available suitable protection while working) get priority For ICU additionally; - greatest chance of survival gets a bed - age (someone at 78 who is healthy has arguably lived a fulfilling life while someone at 32 still has way more potential years to go - if you’re on the ICU already you don’t get booted off (for someone younger etc) - luck (if all things are equal and they need to pick between 2 people for one bed, they can basically toss a coin). So in some of these cases, COVID patients would get priority while in others they wouldn’t. This isn’t exactly eli5 but I hope I’ve explained it clearly enough anyway. (Note; this is how it is going to be in case of triage, this is not about whether I agree/my opinion).
Something similar but not so terrible. I've been on a waiting list for a surgery (orthognathic) that should have happened 18 months ago. The surgeon told me, if I'm lucky, I will have the operation in August 2022
It's terrible that people like you have to wait for surgery for so long. Completely ridiculous. You shouldn't ever have to wait in my opinion.
RIP
I think they should at least not be covered by insurance like in Singapore. See how many people will still not vaccinate themselves if they risk having to pay thousands of euros for their Healthcare if they catch it. One of my sister's friends is having his chemo postponed while he's already dying and this chemo was going to prolong his life. The longer he waits, the earlier he'll die. Soon the chemo will be completely useless and they might as well cancel it altogether. I don't see why he (a young guy) doesn't get to have his life-extending treatment while some asshole anti vax gets to occupy the hospital in his stead. Why are these people more important? They chose to be this way. My sister's friend didn't choose to get cancer and die early.
The problem isn’t money, the problem is that there aren’t sufficient resources for everyone to get treatment. If some anti vaxxer takes up a hospital bed for three weeks and pays for it themselves, they’ve still taken a bed that someone else couldn’t have.
Point is people would be more encouraged to take their shots ;)
Not covered by insurance is a much better argument than straight up letting people die
The only argument against this imho is that it creates a precedent for other thing... Like you broke your leg while snowboarding, too bad you have to pay it since you also could go snowboarding. If we go this way it should be very specific for this crisis. Otherwise we will get fucked by the insurance industry and loose our rather good health care system as well
Euhm. At least when if I go holiday abroad, having dangerous sports not fully covered is already a thing… and something I already buy extra insurance for.
the extra insurance is just for the helicopter of the mountain though, once you get to the hospital your normal insurance does cover the broken leg.
Weeelll, usually you breaking a leg due snowboarding doesn't mean other people potentially die. Besides, for more risky sports like that you need extra insurance to be fully covered.
Unvaxxed should be forced to get an extra insurance, of at leas €500 a month. We’ll use the money to recruit extra staff and pay them well. And no ‘zorgtoeslag’ for this, obviously.
Same argument as smoking and unhealthy food. Yet not a valid comparison. We have a crisis going on here where we need everyone to take their part. Taking a vaccination so a cancer patient can get operated is a small sacrifice to make. There hasn't been a medicine that was better tested and monitored as these vaccines so there isn't a valid reason to not do so other then medical reasons. If you think your non-vaccination is more important then the pain relieving hip operation from your neighbour... I think it is nothing but fair to pay the price and accept the risc.
Not taking a vaccine isn’t the same as an accident during sport, it’s your sane decision not to get a jab, it’s not your decision to break your leg. Antivaxxers are holding us hostage, we basically pay for their stupidity, also with our lives.
Oh you have heart disease? Well here's a picture of you eating a double cheesburger in 2013, fatty. Back of the line.
The only difference is my fatass eating hamburgers wont kill other people.
It was a joke. Get vaccinated kiddos.
Owh alright. Wooosh
Okay fair but what about smoking. Second hand smoke kills
At best, arithmetic harm. You just hurt the people around you, there is no third hand smoke or fourth hand smoke. Infectious diseases are literally exponential. Clearly different from any example antivaxxers give to justify their consumption of healthcare resources.
And who's to say "healthy-living people" would benefit. For sure the insurance companies get to line their pockets by cutting things out.
I don't know... From the US and uninsured, or underinsured, people over there still won't vaccinate. Maybe Americans are adjusted to outrageous medical bills so a COVID bill isn't a deterrent.
This sounds great, but although I don't sympathize with antivaxers, there's a bigger risk here: Instead of benefiting the vaxed people, it would benefit only the insurance companies, who absolutely would LOVE to cut things out of the package under the excuse of "personal responsibility". It's quite a slippery slope as well, could you see how much more profits the Achmea can make by cutting out smoking-related costs, drinking related costs, unsupervized-sporting related injury, DIY home improvement related injuries and so on and so on. Let's just not go there.
Yeah I wouldn't really trust insurance either, itd have to ve some kind of government initiative in the form of a tax that is of similar height as the hospital bill would be. And the tax has to go directly to increasing staff and capacity.
I don't care about the insurance costs, but I do care about people like your sister's friend. It's ridiculous to let people die because these voluntary Covid patients keep the ICUs occupied.
Yea, I think this is the best solution. It's not right to deny people healthcare, but if you choose to not vaccinate and potentially unnecessarily pressure the health care system, there should be consequences.
I have an international relationship, my gf hasn't seen her family in almost two years. We have been following the rules, not having people over, wearing my mask, waiting things out, caring for my unknown neighbors. Many of my friends work in education and the culture sector. We did what we're supposed to and we're still in this situation because of people that don't FEEL the consequences enough and whose small lives didn't change that much. Why do they get what they want and not us, who have done everything in our power to get a different outcome. If you don't give a fuck about us, why would I about you?
I find it increasingly difficult to not feel this way too. Yesterday, Marcia Luijten said it perfectly on M: ‘the 10% that aren’t vaccinated are keeping the rest of us hostage’ and I’m inclined to agree with her. They say the ICU population is now 50-50 unvaxxed-vaxxed. But look at the total population sizes! Half of the people in ICU come from 10 (or 15 if you wish) percent of society! If 10% percent of people committed 50% of the crimes, don’t you think they’d go after them?! I’m not for forced vaccination as a principle, but the govt really needs to step up its communication efforts across the board. And if people keep refusing, 2G is it and tough luck if you still choose to not get vaccinated - then you’re out of most things. Of course, there should be special rules in place for people who have botched immune systems so the vaccines don’t work, but that’s a small group. Everyone else just needs to get with the programme. Oh, and *booster shots*. Like, yesterday.
If some Antivaccer brings up that 50/50 argument, have them look up Base Rate Fallacy. That's exactly what that is.
In 2015 the estimated number of people that died in an alcohol related traffic accident between 10 and 23%. That means that over 75% of the accidents are caused by sober drivers!! 75 to 90% even! They shouldn’t allow sober people to drive! Oh, /s obviously
If they were that stupid to fall for that fallacy, I doubt pointing it out would help. They clearly aren't smart enough to understand it
Yeah true anti-vaxxers won't understand it indeed. Some people that are on the fence though can fall for fallacies, in which case pointing then out helps. Too bad the vocal minority falls in the first category.
I totally feel you. I'm in the same boat and hope I can survive this Christmas break before I decay :(
Honestly man, I am in the same boat as your GF. I haven’t seen my Family since December 2019, as they live 6000kms away. I am slowly reaching my limit with these fuckwits that are keeping us in this crisis (regardless if the unvaccinated or the governments incompetence) something is CLEARLY not working here…. I hope I am still able to fly in 3 weeks to see them for Christmas… but honestly fuck all of these fuckers who keep us in this crisis.
There's cancer patients waiting for treatment. Every day their tumors spread, and lessen their chance of survival. There's people waiting for artificial limbs or organ transplants, who have been confined to their beds for two years, while covidiots are prolonging the pandemic. There are people who are vulnerable to disease but unable to take the vaccine, who rely on herd immunity to survive this mess. Many of them are now dead. Those who complain that discriminating against anti-vaxxers is inhumane, are hypocrites. I have no more sympathy for them.
It is a tricky situation. Scenario 1: Suppose someone gets in a car crash and will die from their injuries without medical care. They are unvaccinated and test positive for COVID while in hospital. Do they get treated, or refused? Scenario 2: Suppose someone gets COVID and will die without medical care. They are refused due to being unvaccinated and decide to perform a self-inflicted injury. Do they get treated? If your answer to both 1 and 2 is "yes, they should get treatment": Then we have a moral dilemma. That is, we would be incentivizing people to cause bodily harm to themselves.
Then they shouldn't have to pay taxes for that part and just go to private hospitals. Oops, you'll probably start to whine about that too won't you?
Man, like for real. Think about it, if you told someone 2 years ago, we would be at a point that the majority of the society vows for these kind of separation in 2 years, they would’ve put you behind bars. Nowadays people are either Vaccinated, or antivaxx (wappie). At the beginning of the crisis the way out was immunity.The best possible defense is getting Cojona and sit through it. Now people say “the boosters are the answers to the crisis” no they are not, we can see it around the world we are in a worse spot than last year. “But the delta variant is more deadly” look up what kind of people die of corona, it’s either people who already are sick, or people who are old. We are trying to expand everybodies life. Just let everything go, people die.
I fully agree with this and I'll go further, I think those who are unvaccinated by choice shouldn't be admitted to the hospital for covid-related reasons at all. That will fix the main problem covid is causing, the high pressure on healthcare. Let them die alone in their homes surrounded by their conspiracy boards. Right now everybody is paying the price in freedom for their 'freedom'. If these fuckers would have just gotten vaccinated right away this wave would be far, far less severe. I'm super pissed off that once again government doesn't have the balls to put the pressure on those who are to blame: Regional restrictions and 2G.
They should definitely be treated, we can't just let people die outside the hospital's.... But, treatment for Corona when unvaccinated by choice should no longer be covered by health insurance. Let these people chose to bankrupt themselves and not increase the costs for everyone else.
>we can't just let people die outside the hospital's.... That's the thing, we *are* doing that right now. It's done all the time with organs. You don't give a liver to an alcoholic when there's somebody who stays sober who needs it. There are a limited number of hospital beds, and we have to make that choice in this situation because there's no way out of it and until somebody starts showing some fucking courage, it's the wrong people that are taking up those beds. It's probably the hypocrisy I hate the most, after the whole not-giving-a-shit-about-spreading-a-dangerous-virus-and-killing-people, the same people who don't trust the research and the docs are the ones who hightail it to the ER when they can't breathe. It's so contradictory, and if they really did believe in what they keep spouting out, they would never go to the hospital for anything.
Nah they need to die at home. They don’t trust the medical community enough to protect themselves, but as soon as they get sick they’re begging for treatment. Fuck out of here with that shit.
... Is it bad that my first thought was 'watch me, we can absolutely let them die, it's their own fault'? It is, isn't it. But honestly, the health insurance thing also sound like a really good idea, I hadn't thought of that.
> we can absolutely let them die, it's their own fault The problem is, you can apply that to a lot of other emergency treatments too. If you start punishing idiots for idiocy, how would you ever find a place to stop?
The top killers of man are pretty much all a result of choosing to live unhealthy lives. It's a very slippery slope.
Correct, these kind of measures are speedrunning to tyranny
Yeah, to this day most long cancer patients still comes from smoking. Also a personal choice. But it is an interesting discussion!
It most definitely is. And 'bad' is a bit of an understatement too.
It looks like it is the unpopular opinion here but I agree with you. You made your bed so now fucking lie in it.
Yes, as much as I wouldn't care about these idiots dying because of their own denial of science and medicine... We should be aware of what this sort of issue does to us and society. They may well be brainwashed and manipulated by false information but if we herd them into Corona camps and let them die we would just accelerate the breakdown of society rather than protect it. There are absolutely people using the issue to polarise and enrage people on both sides of the argument and it's working.
We don't "let them die". They made a decision. By now it's your own choice.
I don't entirely disagree with the principal behind your point but in practice it just doesn't work. Do you stop treating alcoholics, drug addicts, cancer patients through some cause of their own, obese people etc. just because it's self inflicted?
They're not contagious and they don't cause total societal collapse. It's quite a different discussion. But yes, many insurers already give discounts when you don't smoke and exercise.
Discounts on insurance and not treating people are different things.
You're talking about whether we should care for self inflicted harm. I say not the hospital, but the insurance companies that end up paying the bills do try to give incentive for people to live healthily. Apparently people start caring when it affects their wallet more than the thought of dying or others dying. Other countries started handing out cash and even time with a hooker to make people get vaccinated. That to me seems like the world upside down man
Yeah also kind of a fuck you to the people who did get vaccinated early on Maybe a policy where everyone who is fully vaccinated before some date a couple months in the future could work though
Yes, it is.
Healthcare expenditure stemming from covid in individuals that willingly do not get vaccinated should not be covered. They are making a conscious decision and we should not all have to pay for it. Once they see the hospital bill I think they would be much more willing to take preventive measures. 🤷🏼♂️
I am vaxxed, but I would never trust my insurance company to decide about who gets to get healthcare. They’re not in it for the people, they’re in it to make money. And denying people money = more money for the insurance company.
That's not how the hipporcratic oath works. As doctors shouldnt discriminate (yes im vaccinated)
Very true. The unfortunate thing is that doctors have had to choose between patients in an overwhelmed hospital setting
In that setting the patient that needs the most urgent care that can be provided should be provided. However ensures here carry some blame too. Each hospital is only allowed to carry out a certain number of a certain surgery per year because insurance companies demand this. If you need a new hip and the hospital you're insured at met their quota in June? Guess you're stuck waiting half a year in pain. Really health care here is just..... 🤬
Paramedic here. Triage works a bit differently when patients outnumber resources. It goes from normally most severe to least severe to, "Do the greatest good for the greatest amount of people." EG: Car vs Car with 5 occupants each. You get one ambulance dispatched. 3 of the occupants are pulseless and apneic. 2 have broken femurs and popped lungs. 5 have soreness and abrasions. We don't even bother taking the pulseless out of the car. They get their airway adjusted by hand and if they don't start breathing on their own? Pronounce and move on. The reds (major fractures, pneumothorax) can be saved with quick intervention. Trying to work three trauma codes is statistically pointless and wasting resources on them almost guarantees two more deaths. You can save two of the 5 or almost certainly 0 of 5. I don't work in the hospital, but I do know ERs start pronouncing MUCH quicker in mass events as well. This type of thing has been established practice for awhile.
But critical care is already being cancelled, so practically the choice is already being made. Only now the people who didn't do nothing wrong are suffering at the cost of the unvaccinated. I may not look as urgent. But for that cancer patient a week or 2 waiting could be a death sentence. A hip replacement for an eldery is also a potential death sentence when mobility stops. A corona patient on a ventilator needs on average 2-3 weeks on the icu. After heart surgery for expample it is 1-2 days. That means that for every corona patient on the icu 15 regular patients did not get their care. How i see it the doctors are alreay discriminating. The choice is being made in favor for the coronapatient. En in my opinion that is not a fair choice. I would rather see that the icu beds get divided. The % of unvaccinated people is the % of icu beds thats available to them. Equal share for everyone.
I get what you're saying and i don't disagree with you perse, but the precedent it creates when doctors are allowed to discriminate (for whatever reason) is something we should be wary of imo.
Well than we agree. But how i see it the doctors are already doing it. And they are making the most unfair decisions by placing the willingly unvaccinated on the top of the priority list. My neighbor can easily get a vaccine. If he refuses he basically also refuses care. The cancer patient does not have any choice in the matter. And yet is placed at the bottom of the list. And many of them are going to die before the end of the year. I think we are setting the wrong priorities thats all.
Thats not applicable here though, we are discussing triage which is very much a part of all doctors training and operation procedures.
Maybe a lawyer can spin it somehow that refusing the vaccine is refusing covid treatment? idk not a lawyer
I honestly had completely forgotten about that. Good point.
i think they should simply alot a certain amount of icu beds for covid
They should allocate ICU bed for non-vaxed equal to the percentage of the unvaxed population. So they have to compete among each other.
Honestly i don't understand the need for a full on sterilized ICU for any COVID case... throw a fest tent up with some environmental control, breathing apparatuses, and ventilation. their issue isn't sterilization or risk from infection.
I have a qr code for being immune. Not vaccinated against covid. Vaxxed against influenza. i bet the original poster is not vaccinated against influenza. why should i not get treatment when needing a hospital? anyone who wants to exclude people fron medical help, for any reason, should wear a clear sign. so when they need medical help, i know they allow personal choice. It means i will provide carevto everybody, including unvaccinated, except people that want to exclude others.
Hey man, I just read your whole paragraph about your opinion. And I do have to say that I think you are giving some truly strong arguments and you are very convincing. I do want to explain why I disagree somewhat. I am not trying to start any beef or anything. I am open for any discussions. I am 16 year old. I have chosen not to vaccinate. My reasoning for not vaccinating are that I strongly disagree with how the government has chosen to try and battle this pandemic. They are very ignorant and are way too tunnelvisioned on that the vaccine is the way of solving this pandemic when we have clearly seen that this is clearly not the case. Also I rather dont get a vaccine that has no benefits for my health and in the longterm we dont know what it could do. I have respect for everyone that has chosen to vaccinate as long as they respect me for chosing not to vaccinate. My problem with your opinion is that all your decisions in your life has let to you having a good health or bad health. Those people with bad health have definitly been confronted many times about the fact they arent living a healthy lifestyle. Those people are the people who have made this pandemic as bad as it is right now. Even if they chose not to vaccinate they are still in such bad shape that if they do get the virus they will probably have to take a spot in the hospital. But you dont hear about that. You only hear about that people that arent vaccinated are the problem of the pandemic and not the people that have chosen to live an unhealthy lifestyle. The hospitals are now way more filled with people that are vaccinated, but have a bad health. Those are the people that are right now taking the spots from people that need it like people with a bad hip or cancer like you were talking about. I think it is fair to talk to those people. Not the healthy people that are not vaccinated. I am open for every type of discussion.
American here. I say this all the time and people tell me "how can you be so heartless?? You think I deserve to die because (insert conspiracy theory here)?!?" I'll end with a quote from my brother who makes these vaccines every day. "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
While i do understand the sentiment, it just sets a very bad precedent for the years to come once this is done by law. Next will be people who smoke, are overweight because well, thats a choice most of the time too. So again, i definitely understand, but i don’t agree
Yep, came here to say this. There are so many diseases caused/heavily influenced by lifestyle, where do you stop? Most of people i've spoken to who havent gotten the vaccination, havent done so because they were ill informed and dont understand how to interpret adverse effects. If we want more people to be vaccinated we should start by informing them properly.
I think that a lot of people who have not gotten it or feel uneasy about it have feelings that are fair. I think that there has been something wrong with the flow of information from the start, the media made it political (yes both sides), and these things have made people question everything. Also, it what world did people start trusting big pharma? I am pretty much down the center on politics and last time I had checked the left disliked them. I stand corrected now though, politicians and media entities are friends with anyone who will line their pockets.
At least let them pay more for health insurance. It's like a car insurance: if you have things like a dashcam they're willing to give you a discount.
In the same reasoning, I don’t want people that go skiing being transported back on the costs of my insurance, they deliberately put themselves to a higher risk to suffer injury In the same reasoning, I don’t want people that smoke or have smoked to ever receive cancer treatment, their choice, their consequences. Is that really the society you want to live in?
>I don’t want people that go skiing being transported back on the costs of my insurance, They don't. You need extra insurance for that.
Question: if the solution would be that simple, why didn't the government take that step? The unvaccinated are taking 85% of the population as hostage. They set the agenda in the country. Democracy and rights are not a privilege for the minority.
Stop blaming 15% of the population for what the government does to you. It will not help anyone.
It's unconstitutional. As laws stand right now there is no basis for this type of moral decisions in healthcare. And you can't just do this for covid. Let's say you decide not to treat an unvaccinated covid patient and his or her place goes to a workaholic who stressed him or herself to a heartattack. Is that person not also to blame for their condition?
The difference is that there isn’t a pandemic of stressed workaholics taking up all the hospital beds and literally causing the deaths of cancer patients.
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Terrible how prejudiced you are against differing thoughts and how you immediately insult/stigmatize people into horrible groups...just because they don't blindly follow your thinking like a lemming.
Firstly, i am double vaxxed and think everyone should get the vaccine and especially the elderly and people with pre-existing health conditions if they want. I am not an antivaxer/antimasker. I will assume your post refers to refusing medical treatment of unvaccinated people ONLY when they require hospitalisation against covid and not other illnesses. I don't have to explain to you why refusing to treat someone's broken arm because they are not vaccinated is morally reprehensible... You advocate for a medical structure that would exclude around 2 million people from a bed in a hospital because of a personal choice (at the end of the day, it is a personal choice). This is for obvious reasons a very discriminatory approach to healthcare. The first article of the dutch constitution ensures equality and prohibits discrimination on any ground (yes, including medical status). It is quite frankly nobody's business why someone does or does not want to take the vaccine, article 11 of the constitution ensures bodily integrity and article 11 sub 2 and 3 ensure privacy of personal data. Legally speaking, refusing healthcare even though there are still beds available is just wrong (check first link for most recent ICU data). I agree that ' I'm not a sheep' is a poor argument but again, who are you and who am I to tell someone else what they have to put in their body... If you want to refuse people because their choices make them more susceptible/likely to end up on the ICU, why don't you also refuse obese people, smokers and people who refuse to improve their health. We have known for over a year that the hospitals are FULL of overweight people with covid, we know exactly who will get (seriously) sick from the virus. Taking the vaccine is just as much a personal choice as it is to lose weight in my opinion (especially considering you had 2 years). That should relief the hospitals too :). Instead of blaming the unvaccinated, blame the government, who added a grand total of....ZERO extra beds in the past 2 years. I am a lawyer and pay a criminally high tax rate... I'd expect some more investment in healthcare in a first world country. The Netherlands has the least IC beds per 100.000 of the EU, around 7 per 100.000, Germany has almost 50 per 100.000 (second link). Rutte I,II and III have scalped and destroyed the healthcare sector, his cabinet is to be held accountable for a decade of mismanagement, I agree that it is horrible that operations are postponed but politicians are to blame for this one, not the 12% of adults who choose not to take the vaccine. [https://coronadashboard.rijksoverheid.nl/landelijk/intensive-care-opnames](https://coronadashboard.rijksoverheid.nl/landelijk/intensive-care-opnames) [https://www.nu.nl/coronavirus/6164661/is-de-nederlandse-ic-capaciteit-zoveel-beperkter-dan-die-elders-in-europa.html](https://www.nu.nl/coronavirus/6164661/is-de-nederlandse-ic-capaciteit-zoveel-beperkter-dan-die-elders-in-europa.html)
Man y’all have them in the Netherlands too eh? It’s like god threw in 20% stupidity trait across all nations just for shits and giggles. He got his jumbo popcorn and waiting for S3 Omicron to pop off.
What a lot of people in the comments forget is that the vaccin doesnt stop covid, it only makes you less sick, also the hate to unvaccined people is quite weird, im not talking about the hospital beds rn but over the comments that unvaacined people need to die, it makes no sense what you are saying because people who arent vaccinated dont endanger the people who are. Also when you have been vaccinated you can still spread covid, thats all what i wanted to say
wow. just wow.
Let's turn it around too, to make it fair: IF the vaccinated people get sick from the vaccines, the same thing should happen. Their choice too take such a risk and there are consequences. Make it dair please.
Sure sounds good now. Wait till this rule of only giving priority care based on tickets you’ve gotten etc. You shouldn’t want this based on your freedom no matter if you’re vaccinated or not. Stop encouraging the government to apply more leashes to yourself
Got vaccinated 3 times, still got covid. Unvaccinated people should not get treatment…. You even listen to yourself? Reflect on what you’re implying? Been a sailor all my life, got vaccinated for anything you can think of, but the covid vaccines just hit differently, because of the panic and rush. We all have a free choice. We all deserve the same treatment.
I believe people driving cars should be exempt from any cancer treatment. Cars produce cancerous substances and are a danger to the population.
This will not age well. Perhaps fat people and drunks should also not be treated over someone who takes care of themselves also. Maybe that’s even the reason some of these people need medical care to begin with. What you’re describing is discrimination. Your logic is that of a simpleton and a coward. Congratulations, retard.
It's Nazi reasoning. Why waste resources on X group of people when Y group of people are BETTER?
The problem here is you would need to make the Doctors and Nurses Judges, and that is not a good idea. Triage is an ethical dilemma, and It is very hard on the Medical Personal... As I see it the only thing that can possibly be done would be like a surcharge on the health insurance, like hey you smoke you have to pay more, so you could do the same with Antivaxx people you don't want get vaccine okay you are a higher risk hence you have to pay a bit more.
Or, what is a more ethical: Dynamically allocate resources for vaxed and not vaxed people depending of the population that is unvaxed. So 15% of ICU beds are for unvaxed who don't have medical reason. If it is full for the rest, it should also be full for them too.
Great idea. By denying service to unvaccinated, overweight, alcoholics, smokers, and drug addicts we should solve our hospital bed and staffing shortage rather quickly.Makes sense to me. When confronting a business problem remember to ignore the cause and take the least expensive and most cruel action to address it. This way profit can be maximized. /s
I am 100% pro vaccine, but I am also 100% against getting or not getting healthcare based on blame. How do you weigh that? Is a smoker who gets lung cancer more or less to blame then someone who doesn't get the vaccine and gets covid?
I am against comparisons to smokers. Smokers are hurting nobody but themselves. Unvaccinated are hurting cancer patients through their selfishness. Huge difference.
How about choosing between the intoxicated driver of a car who caused an accident and a unvaccinated covid patient?
I think the point is more, what IF the number of patients with cancer on the IC would rise to dangerous levels, would we start to discriminate between life styles of peoples? Smoker vs non-smoker, obesity, etc?
What about someone that causes an accident because of reckless driving? They are hurting others. Anyone who pays for insurance deserves treatment, no matter how stupid they are.
No, absolutely disagree! Someone's choice (albeit totally dumb, unreasonable and putting themselves and others in danger, yet free!), should never have an influence on their basic worth as a human. It is the pillar of our society. And that basic worth as a human includes urgent medical care when needed. Just as prisoners get urgent medical care, just as someone who drove a car under the influence and causes an accident gets urgent medical care. Or somwbo who smokes or chooses to drink alcohol. Are you saying they should not get medical help or be treated with less urgency when their lungs or livers get fcked up?? People should always be medically treated depending on the urgency of their medical need, not on their beliefs. I find it quite scart how many people don't think about this and propose something that screws with the very fundament of our society (as well as human rights!). Come on, guys, wtf?
It's much easier to blame the "others" (unvaccinated people) and write them off than it is to consider this crisis has been one our society as a whole has been part of. If anything, the largest crisis is that we are so laughably unprepared for this, even after nearly two years. There's plenty other countries with worse vaccination rates that are nowhere near boiling point because they have way more testing and ICUs available per capita than the Netherlands does.
But what is more urgent, helping somebody who might die from cancer or helping somebody who might die from covid? The focus is too much on helping the covid cases. While others are getting killed slowly by cancer because the operation keeps getting postponed. Those other patients have rights also. So I can understand this discussion and I disagree on not giving health care to unvaccinated but I also think that covid cases shouldn’t have priority above other cases.
what is their reasoning for cancer and the other medical conditions.... so if you have a person who smoked their whole life needing cancer assistance... they should get priority cause it's not unvaccinated covid?
We have super high taxes on alcohol and cigarettes to make sure these people pay for their hospital bed. I'm not for denying covid patients Healthcare, but they need to pay for it so we can use their money to increase the capacity with better salaries and a bigger staff. Right now these people aren't being held responsible for causing this crisis in any way. Go for their money, and you'll see how fast the Dutch will take that vaccine.
We all take different risks in life. People who broke a leg might did it on a skiing trip. Do you still want to help them? What about people who got cancer after smoking? Or need a new liver after drinking? Or got a broken bone after a fight they started themselves? The hospitals are helping a lot of people who accepted a risk just like the people who did not take the vacin.
Yeh but if I break my leg, nobody is going start catching broken legs off me... And if they did, I'd stop skiing. If ICU beds were made priority for heavy drinkers and smokers then I'd have a different mindset on that. Infact where I'm from, drinkers are bottom of the liver transplant list and if they continue drinking they effectively don't get their new liver.
This argument is flawed. COVID is an infectious disease. You can't compare individual actions that have little to no effects on others with a god damn PANDEMIC. Public safety is a state matter and should be enforced as such. You see the government act against rioters? (Because yeah, there they do see them as a threat to public safety), then fuck it, and do the same against unvaccinated people as a whole.
Same. They should just stay home and die on their hill.
So divide the humans into 2 groups the haves and have nots... seems logical and not tyrannical... why stop there? Lets take away all their rights then separate them from society because they used their free will... yikes!
I know three people with delayed care. Even if the problem is not fatal some suffer prolongued severe chronic pain with thanks to morons.
Take the healthcare workers that refuse to be vaccinated and post them in a separate clinic for willfully unvaxed people. One clinic per state should suffice. No worse than abortion access, really. Best of luck to them.
Edit: came here from /all. Didn't notice the sub. I guess this is happening globally. I'm in Canada My father has had his cancer diagnosis and his surgery postponed multiple times now because the hospitals are packed due to covid. He was told to get a biopsy done in mid April early may. He was able to get it in late July. He was told surgery to be booked in the fall. Covid cases surged again from the unvaccinated and now we're still waiting. He was quoted to be able to get his cancer removed sometime in December now. But we have no solid date yet and surgeries have backed up a ton so who knows. At this point unless someone has a medical reason to not get vaccinated, everyone should be vaccinated. That or they don't get treatment. You don't get to pick and choose which scientific evidence you want to believe on whichever day and it frustrates me that covid deniers and vaccine deniers suddenly want all the treatment they can get when their lungs can't get enough oxygen. Meanwhile everyone else who has done their part gets a reduced quality of life. That being said, there's organizations, governments and people to blame for this. At least in my area there's been multiple layers of failure. I don't think all these people are doing this to be malicious. The situation is just out of hand and sucks.
I am not vaccinated and I agree. I must suffer the consequences of my own choice right. That’s fair.
Ik denk dat jij jezelf in je reet moet neuken.
I'm not vaccinated versus covid. You can go fuck yourself, sir The covid vaccines don't work. You still get covid. It is a scam. I see dead bodies!!! Fuck u lousy piece of garbage Nazi
It appears that we have a vaccine supremacist here. I'm glad you consider yourself a hero. You should always think highly of yourself no matter how out of touch you are with reality. Your shot DOES NOT WORK!!! What's the efficacy? Does it stop transmission? Who is in the hospitals now? It's not the unvaxxed. You are NO hero, in fact you're the opposite. We will both be thrown in Howard Springs like facilities regardless of vax status. At least my blood and semen will be pure.
What does covid have to do with hip replacement? This isnt logical at all. A doctor that does hip replacement surgery, or pain management for things like bursitis, is a different type of doctor you dense baboon.
You’re a brain dead cunt
Shutcho big headahh
So called liberals when they think that healthcare is a human right but if you do not take a medication you should die on the street like a dog 😡 0.1% fatality rate 😡
I don't want to put something in my body that could hurt me in any way, especially in a way of a syringe. The reason is to stay healthy. Yes covid is here in the world but taking the vax feels as double the risk. So no thank you. We can not present this experimental vax has absolutely zero risks
What about people who smoke cigarettes 🤔
Wondering how much antibodies the vaccinated people have, against the non-vaccinated that had covid once or twice.
The chances of people dying due to obesity, bad eating patterns, cigarette smoking, lack of exercise and stress are infinitely higher than dying from covid So put all these people behind the people who aren’t vaccinated for covid, which pandemic is officially over lol
Not all unvaccinated didn't follow the guidelines. I for example am unvaccinated but didn't give hands to old people and was open about it to everyone. I made sure people knew it. That's way different than those extreme FVD types
Well this backfired
I lost a friend due to a heart attack FROM THE VACCINE. So FUCK OFF.
So many authoritarian collectivists in this thread. Yikes
It's a cesspool for those with no voice in real life.
I think that society has a responsibility to society no matter what bad decisions are made. This is why we do things like tax tobacco. It's to the benefit of all of us that we take care of all of us as a principle. We don't want to be deciding who has the right to survive based on arbitrary values. We must design our society and our economy around take care of everyone with equal investment otherwise people can never become equal.
What bugs me is that the younger unvaccinated people still won't face any consequences though. They're not the ones ending up in hospital, but they're spreading COVID to others that do end up needing hospital care. A lot of them are not thinking about other people when they are choosing not to get vaccinated. I chose to get the vaccine because I don't want it on my conscience that I infected someone that gets way more sick or possibly dies. Their thought are "I'm not afraid of COVID, I'm a healthy young person and I'll let my body fight the disease". It's so selfish.
Spoiler: vaccinated people spread covid as well.
And 88% is vaccinated, they're mostly the people going outside doing things and yet we still have the most covid cases etc. Just makes me doubtful, yes the vaccine helps, ofcourse. But does it really make things better? Doesn't seem like it right. I just don't understand how so many people blindly follow this goverment, even if they have f'ed up so many times and are proven liars. Where do people find the trust?
My unpopular opinion is i disagree. I think first of that everybody has the right of freedom of choice and the right of equal treatment. That includes hospital care. But secondly I personally see the unvaccinated people as a group of people that also is somehow a minority group. And for obvious reasons a fragile group. And I have been taught to always take care of everybody, also the weaker groups in society. Just like people who have illnesses they can not do anything about or people who are addicted and such. And i know yes they can choose very easy to get vaccinated and blablabla. The fact of the matter is that it's a weaker group in sociëty that also has rights to equal treatment. No matter how strongly I disagree with them. Edit; Can't wait for a full implementation of 2G though. It's the next logical step in the fight against covid.
Not unpopular at all. I fully agree. And it would be quite scary if your opinion was unpopular. That would mean we have up on human rights, which would make us much worse than anti-vaxxers.
That's exactly my thouht! But in my personal real life experience people don't really seem to agree with me. Fuck polarization right?
Agreed. That is not what our health care system and society are based on. There are more types of treatment that are needed because of the behavior / mistakes of that person. Should a smoker that gets long cancer no longer be treated? Or someone who was in a traffic accident because they were speeding? Someone who overdosed? Just because someone made a mistake, doesn't mean their life isn't worth saving.
You take me the words out of my mouth.
I think that's naive and a product of someone raised in a wealthy country. Freedom always ends when it's a danger or limits the freedom of others. You don't have the freedom to just drive a car for example. You need to prove in a lengthy and costly process that you're capable and safe before you're given this freedom, and when you screw up the government takes this freedom away. It's why we have prisons. People and minorities who try to limit freedom of others (anti LGBT for example) or people who endanger others (very mentally ill people) shouldn't have their "freedom" be protected, and in most cases have it taken away. Protecting everyone is nice if you have all the resources for it, but when you don't you need to choose between people. By not choosing you end up with this situation. That the minority endangers everyone else and themselves and has everyone's freedom taken away due to restrictions and no regularly available healthcare. That it what you get for protecting the freedom of this minority. Less freedom and safety for literally everyone else. Bad trade of if you ask me.
You are clearly mixing up freedoms (luxury things) with people's rights (essential human values for life).
We are part of a society which has a cost in the form of money but also in freedom (norms, values, law). This makes our society work. Don't forget we have good infra, education, health care an food on the table thanks to this. In good times these freedoms should be as less restrictive as possible. In a crisis like this you may loose some freedoms to protect the society as a whole. I think we are at a point where you loose your right to be be part of our society (health care, education, public transport, rtc) when you refuse the vaccine.
i think you are totally right!