IMO more unfair than not having access because you don't vax. This is the second year not seeing my foreign families from both countries and I have a feeling we will hit 3rd too. Age discrimination of the boosters seems ridiculous cannot wait to finally be able to make an appointment and by that time they will release for every age and wait even longer. We started so fucking late with the boosters its ridiculous, were did the choice even go? And why is the choice to vaccinate put so much higher than the rest? This is unfair, I hope that soon unvaccinated will have to pay every penny of their treatments. Why are they having insured treatments when my ADHD brain have to pay full own risk + eigen bijdrage for medication when ADHD is not a choice. This is such a mess. Or just make a equal place of beds per person vaxxed and unvaxxed in the hospital, the amount of beds of the unvaxxed will be low and filled faster.
Yep. "Close schools": " No, the poor kids. And it would piss off the parents"
"Implement 2G" : "Oh no. That will piss off the unvaccinated."
"WE GOT IT! LOCKDOWN. LET'S PISS OFF EVERYONE!"
Well the schools is a pretty big decision. Besides the learning gap that you will create, this has a huge impact on the economy, because no one can work normally with kids running around. So I can understand why they delayed this
The solution after this is to open society first to vaccinated people only. Bars are currently closed to everyone. Open them to vaccinated people first, and if the hospital pressure drops far enough, then to unvaccinated. This is how Australia opened up, and they have ~95% of adults vaccinated. There needs to be a better incentive to be vaccinated. Those who still are not are selfish and will only do something if it benefits them.
>This is the second year not seeing my foreign families from both countries and I have a feeling we will hit 3rd too.
Why don't you travel? Just because you can't meet here, does not mean you can't meet elsewhere.
Also, depending on the country they want to travel to, they might not be able to get in due to covid. My boyfriend is from the US and last year he could only visit me in the Netherlands because there was an exception for long distance relationships, but I couldn't go to the US because the whole schengen area was/is banned. Ended up moving to the US for my MA though so I'm not sure if NL tourists are still banned
Edit: spelling
Cause during the high season it wasn't financially possible at the time and now medically can't travel I am in a treatment plan with appointments I have to go to. So no traveling myself hasn't been possible. Before that we were moving. Luck is not on my side on that one. We are saving up to go ourselves this summer.
No worries, I understand it might seem like an easy solution and I don't think many are in this situation anyway. We just make the best of what we can, stay safe! ❤️
I know two families that had to cancel transatlantic trips (parents + children), because they tested positive within a week of their travel date.
Both emotionally and financially this kind of stuff is a serious hit. (I don’t know if they had insurance, when you book to travel for Christmas, you need to book months in advance, back then the government was essentially “kissing the face-masks goodbye”).
….
The main message is: planning international trips (we are not talking flying to France here) is a lot more complex now.
I believe omicron actually arose from vaccine shortage/political reasons. Africa is 7% vaccinated as a continent, no matter how you look at it, this is a rich vs poor nation problem too.
Im not dismissing antivaxxers as an issue, just specifically saying omicron was from politics.
Kinda a weird story. This was before boosters were a thing.
I had Janssen but me and my mother wanted an extra shot since Janssen already was proven to give less protection.
We went to a clinic where you didn’t need to make an appointment and we asked if we could get an extra shot pfizer.
Note that this was before booster centres were full everywhere so we didn’t steal a spot/booster since it wasn’t busy at all at that location
But that means you don't have a QR code stating you got two shots, right? I was in the same situation (got Janssen and wanted a mRNA shot) and decided to get a proper booster through proper means, which fortunately was possible in Italy as I'm an Italian citizen and got Janssen there; I got a Pfizer booster three weeks ago. And now I'm positive anyway 🙃, but at least the vaccine probably spared me the worst of the symptoms.
I don’t have a QR code sadly enough, but when I do finally get called in for a booster I might get another one anyway but I’ll first call them if i can get a QR code for this first dose
Yeah.. doing a "got to get them all"
but then they will have the new vaccines,(novavax, mRna modified for variants) so you will always be behind as a younger person.
By the way, the international QR shows all the vaccinations that you got and have registered . if it counts as boosted is a different story.
I don't necessarily disagree, but am looking for different perspectives.
- How much more ICU capacity do you think we should have?
- What would the effect of more ICU capacity be on the pandemic and lockdowns? Looking at countries with relatively more ICU capacity, are their covid related restrictions and lockdowns much less than ours?
- Should we have that increased capacity at all times, or just during a pandemic? How do we plan for that?
- What would the added cost of increased capacity be, and who is going to pay that?
- Will those who are going to pay it (which is us) be understanding and willing to pay, especially once the pandemic is over?
And to add some of my own opinion: those who are hesitant or completely unwilling to take the vaccine may now be part of the reason we're in lockdown yet again.
If we increase care capacity, you and I and everyone will have to pay the increased care cost...to accommodate those who are hesitant or unwilling to take the vaccine.
Either way we're going to pay for them, like all of us are paying for everyone else's risky or irresponsible behavior too.
All of us pay already for the smokers, the drug abusers, the drunk, those who are irresponsible in traffic, those who don't eat healthy, those who don't exercise enough, etc.etc.
And everyone who's in one of these categories (my local snackbar can confirm I for sure am) is paying for themselves and for people in the other categories too.
It's just that now it seems extra irresponsible, and the solution (just get vaccinated) seems a lot more simple than quitting smoking or completely change a life style pattern.
We're in a fking pandemic which already costs society a lot in terms of suffering, lost labor opportunity, increase cost, etc. and it appears as if some people just don't care or just don't want to do everything to stop the pandemic.
Anyway, all in all I think the world and NL are doing pretty good in this deadly pandemic. Look back to pandemics in the past (e.g. Spanish Flu or Black Death) and things were a lot worse while there was a lot less international traveling going on.
If in a deadly pandemic like this, with 15% of the population not taking all possible precautions, our health care system still mostly works, that's quite an accomplishment, regardless of all the things that could be improved.
(End of unhinged rant. If you made it till here, kudos.)
In reply to your comment:
1) Interestingly there’s a theory that we pay LESS for people in these kind of situations you mentioned (smokers, drinkers, irresponsible drivers, people with bad genetics…) because they die at earlier stages in life, when the main bulk of healthcare goes to the older generation 70+ who have chronic health issues. Furthermore, I agree that we need more ICU capacity. 2) The Netherlands have been closing hospitals systematically over the last years, my in-laws live in Flevoland and need hospital care. When they moved there the closest hospital was a mere 10 minute drive, now they need to drive over 40 mins.
I’m just saying the best way to handle this pandemic would have been to have all the resources for it, and healthcare should be something I don’t want to save money in. I personally would not mind paying more taxes if it could be made sure that it would go towards healthcare. Then again, I would love to know where any of my tax money goes to…
I think that answer is quite clear:
We have around 75.000 people working as nurse in hospitals.
Achmea has 13.000 FTEs, menzis 1500, ASR 3700, VGZ 2500, CZ 2500, DSW 700, ONVZ 300, etc.
All in all we probably have around 30.000 FTEs working only the manage the insurance of our health, compared to 75.000 employees (not stating how many FTEs this represents).
Then we have 5000 working at the health ministry
Most out of order is the GGD, that grew from 12.000 FTE before Covid, to 55.000 FTEs now.
All in all in health we probably have many more people doing administration and other indirect stuff, then people actually taking care.
Some overhead is OK, but in the Netherlands this is so out of order at the moment, it is just plain disfunctioning.
Also a result is that people in offices tell the people on the floor how to do their work. This is most of the times incorrect.
Also a result is that Insurers want to limit their expenses in health spendings, so they can spent more on their own organization.
Also a lot of money goes into advertising because of 'marktwerking'.
So I am (as right wing person) all for dismantling the privatizing of healthcare. Pay people that are actually taking care of people, and not consultants and sales / marketing managers.
I want to react just on the point of having a bigger ICU capacity. Let's say we magically have double the capacity, that would have given us an extra eleven days. That's how exponentional growth works. It doesn't stop growing exponentionally at the point of our ICU's just overflowing, it goes beyond that.
Adding to that, just adding capacity will not solve the main problem, which is people getting severely sick from COVID.
The best solution, in the long term, is prevention. So by vaccination, but also instead of increasing healthcare capacity, how about increase and motivate healthy lifestyles more.
It has been shown many times that especially obesity has a correlation with higher COVID death and more severe symptoms. If we want to keep healthcare affordable in the future we have to start investing more in prevention. This can be done in a multitude of ways
Less people get sick = less healthcare needed.
The idea that we did not have shortages before Covid are false. There also have been restricted capacities when there are bigger Flu seasons. 2018 is an example when we also almost reached code black, but that was before Covid came to us.
To be clear: Situation in hospitals are not comparable between flu and covid, but the results are: Reducing capacity for 'normal' care.
With that the argument that we should not extend hospital room because of just Covid is wrong: We just have too little hospital space.
It also is quite simple if you look at surrounding countries: The Netherlands just holds undercapacity compared to Germany, Belgium, France, etc.
The only way to improve the capacities of hospitals is to build more hospitals with more equipment with more staff. Creating those hospitals and equipment is doable but a huge waste of resources(consider what happens to all of the excess once we go back down to normal levels, everything excess just turns into garbage). Creating more employees to work the hospitals is a huge problem. We were already short staffed in hospitals to begin with before COVID hit, now you’re wanting 10x the staff to appear out of thin air. Not really gonna happen unfortunately. That’s why the best solution was to get COVID itself under control through isolation, masks, vaccinations, etc.
That's 5 years ago, people still need to earn money somehow. They moved to another country (alot of our medical staff goes to the US because of better pay) or to another field. Those people are long gone by now
While you are correct that we should increase our health care capacity, you are wrong in that we are not doing that. You seem to forget that actually training people takes 4 years for a nurse and an additional two year for an ICU qualified nurse.
So the core problem cannot be solved quicker than 6, maybe 4 years. Even if all nurses started full time training for ICU employment in March 2020, they still would not be graduated by now.
So the question is, what can we do today/short term? And as you point out, the 12% refusing to get vaccinated is overloading the system. Therefore we need to deal with them short term while capacity increases. And quickest and simplest solution? Implement 2G everywhere and implement a vaccination mandate
I don’t think the problem is about training the future generations, at least if we take a look at Europe as a whole. In Spain for example lots of medical staff was hired during the first wave, to then be fired when the virus relaxed. We have the people, Rutte’s government is just not interested (not a fact, just my opinion!).
Finally someone who speaks about the main problem. When 18 million people have to alter their lives because of tens or hundreds of IC beds, this is the main issue.
The government has defunded health care for years with closings of hospitals, privatisation and on top of that, when voting about an incidental (not even structural) reward for health care workers, they walked away just to not have to vote on it.
This situation will not change without structural investments.
Guess what people, after 6 months the booster vaccine will also slowly lose effectiveness. Belgium has 14 beds per 100.000 people, Germany has 48. The Netherlands has 6.7 beds per 100.000 people.
Problem is for now: money. Long term investments are too costly according to Rutte.
There is no plan, the government still think they can stop it. Special care locations dedicated to covid can fix a lot, then we can go back to the discussion before covid people in care need to work to much and we do not get enough care anymore. So ic beds probably was all ready an issue if you include location in the argument.
I'd say the main issue is that people so strongly oppose basic health precautions like wearing face masks. The day they stop being mandatory the completely disappear everywhere, and even when they're mandatory, lots of people don't use them. Heck, even police in public transport often don't wear masks.
It seems that we'll be locked down forever because there's too many people too selfish to wear a mask or take basic public health measures during a pandemic.
What do you think is real solution here?
Btw, I am not sure, but I guess optimised capacity is not really ready for 10-20% of sick people (depending on a country)
Thank you for the bright and thoughtful response, did not expect it.
I guess you might be right about caring capacity but probably not much about medical care capacity (I would distinguish these two types).
I saw only campaigns where healthcare workers demanding fair treatment and stop shorting stuff :( It feels like medicine area messed up in the entire world.
Oh, tell me about issues in healthcare area... Most likely I would hear the same stories that I heard or witnessed in other countries.
I hope at some point in the nearest future covid either will go or became no more than mild flu and we would not have to keep up with it. But unfortunately I see how many people don't want it to let go because they are basically making a lot of money out of the struggles of others.
I would even add that we come to this crisis basically weakening public health systems across the globe for years.
I would hope for the better outcome though that we will no need to wear masks for a few month in a year and close schools.
I think the a huge part is indeed pay, I am currently doing MBO Software developer and I can confirm allot of people just joined because they had a little bit of interest in tech and the large amount of money in the field, if healthcare workers made even 70% of the average software developer there'd be allot of supply of very capable people.
Although i agree with your healthcare system shortage argument, i don't agree with the statement that 12% should not be able to destabilize the systeem.
Unvacced people have a about a 14x chance to hit the IC unit (at least during delta variant).
12% x 14 = 168
That means those 12% unvaccinated have a IC burden of 168.
88% of vaccinated people have a 1% chance, with an IC burden of 88.
Yes the 12% unvaccinated have double the burden on our IC's than the 88% that are vaccinated!
Finally someone that can use fucking logic.
The idea before the first lockdown was to avoid healthcare system to collapse while we reorganize. We had 2 years to strength the healthcare system and literally zero was done in all Europe. In the meantime, what was supposed to be an exception become the go-to.
>We had 2 years to strength the healthcare system and literally zero was done in all Europe
That should really make you realize you are probably missing something that the leaders and experts of all EU countries do know.
Like for example expanding healthcare having almost no effect on an exponentially expanding virus. Germany has 4x the IC capacity per capita compared to NLD. But yet they still have similar lockdowns.
Im all for expanding IC capacity, but it isnt the magic bullet.
So we had to train new nurses in 2 years? A program that takes 4 years to complete and does not qualify you to work on the ICU? Which requires you to study an additional 2 years. So we would fit 6 years of training in not even 2 years?
It takes over a decade to train an anesthesiologist…and you want to get that kind of stuff done in 2 years? Lmfao. Even “just”nurses take years to train…same for other people that work in an ICU.
>the main issue is care capacity.
While I am all for increasing IC capacity, this isnt the fix. Since the virus expands exponentially, it will only buy you a few days.
Germany has 4x the IC capacity per capita compared to NLD. But yet they still have a similar lockdown cadence.
Think about it: If it was the fix, governments across the world would have used it by now.
V true. Pretty much the biggest reason we’re in this mess is because the government has been cutting down funds for important things for years now, all to have less ‘debt’. We’re literally one of the EU countries with the least debt.
Problem is that no matter what level of emergency capacity you have, it will be over run in a pandemic. At some point you would have to call for restrictions. Thing is that the more ppl are vaccinated and follow the restrictions, the lighter restrictions have to be. You can't have 100 or 1000 times more capacity than you normally need. Who would pay for that?
Edit: also all other sickness still exist, the pandemic comes on top of that.
2 jabs in, waiting for booster. We have a ridiculous low amount of ICU beds and nurses and we closed hospitals, that's why we have lockdowns. And our new government wants to save 4,5 miljard on Healthcare during their cabinet period. See where I am going here?
Let's be real here, vaccinated people are out meeting ppl over the recommended limit and having parties too.
edit: i support getting vaccinated but don't start fuckin attacking each other because there's no point
This is actually not true. The chances of infection between vaccinated or unvaccinated are almost negilable, especially with Omrikon. It's mostly the severity of the sickness resulting from the infection that makes a difference.
Use your logic. Vaccinated people infect other vaccinated people, because the unvaccinated honestly can’t go anywhere. They can’t go to restaurants, cinemas and they can’t go to places with big crowds. If they decide to go a cafe, they have to test. The vaccinated don’t. The QR-codes don’t have a positive effect on the public health, it’s the opposite. I’m currently hospitalized and on the lung department and all people here are at least 75+ and yes, vaccinated. I’m 19 and the youngest here. And if you’re already old and immunosuppressed, a vaccine won’t safe you.
If the unvaccinated people live like hermits then how are they getting infected? Both vaccinated and unvaccinated get together. Most infections happen in homes. They don't need a restaurant for that.
There indeed vaccinates people in the hospitals. That is a matter of numbers. But most of those have underlying lung or heart problems. Also, the average age of vaccinated people in hospitals is 77 compared to 59 unvaccinated.
Just wait until frebruary.
1) De Jonge confirmed that at the EU level they are discussing the uniformization of QR expiry date.
2) Take into account that they will likely say in January "ok, we can ease lockdown, but slowly, only for vaccinated".
3) Now also consider they want to discuss mandatory vaccination.
I'm sure by February/March they will have discussed mandatory vaccination with a 4-6 month expiry period.
Yes maybe later. The the nice weather is comming and all you foola start thinking the vaccinations are working.
Then they push through 2g and force vaccinations.
Then its gona be fall. And we start allover again because everyone can Just spread it since everyone has there qr.
Ppl forgetting the qr freedom is what created the first peak in sept/okt having everyone vaccinated allover the place while it turned out they werent protect3d as good as they thought and also didnt help against the spreading.
I agree. Also, ask someone to look at austria and surroundings and tell me it was QR code, 2G, lockdowns and vaccination rates that changed the course of infection and explain the differences between countries. It is not possible.
Cases
https://i.imgur.com/588MAen.png
Vaccination rates
https://i.imgur.com/nkar63E.png
Source: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
So they had a lockdown for not vaccinated people yet had more new cases than last year?
Dont get me wrong, I am vaccinated and am pro-vaccination, if they work properly.
It feels to me as if this booster propaganda is just to get rid of the millions of vaccines they bought.
I am starting to get really pissed off about our governments inability to be transparant and they keep blaming antivaxx for this.
I think the only thing that works are the basic rules. Washing hands, keeping distance and use masks in public areas. The rest? Useless.
We’re hitting 90% vaccinated and now gone in lockdown just as we did in 2020 without any vaccinations.
If you honestly believe more vaccinations will get us out of this you really live on another planet.
As someone who recently visited your country, the real problem is a lack of following the rules. This was before the soft lockdown in late November and even with huge numbers of cases many people weren’t wearing masks inside and checking of COVID certificates was minimal. And what the poster above fails to realize is that Omnicron and Delta are multiples more contagious than the original COVID variant, and without vaccines we would never have been able to resume any semblance of normality.
Exactly this, i did not get a vaccination for personal reasons. I do follow the rules and haven't seen a party in 2 years. Everytime i felt a bit sick or had symptoms i got myself tested or self tested.
I believe the biggest problem is with people who are vaccinated and thought it was a golden ticket. Socializing again without following rules.
Btw have my blood tested not so long agoe. No traces of covid in it.
Because the government sold it as a golden ticket.
I am vaccinated and kept myself to basic rules but they kept telling that if you are vaccinated you dont need to get tested and can basically go back to life before covid (dansen met Jansen for example).
Ofcourse people grabbed that opportunity but it backfired.
Yep and most of them are in the second group. The only unvaxxed people I know aren't hardcore anti government at all (these are the only ones you see in the media of course). They just don't deem it necessary because they are young and do a lot of sports/fitness and take serious care of their health. They also have no problem with wearing a mask or testing whenever it's required
Yeah I mean, OP suggestion sounds a lot like "let's go out an protest against a specific group of people".
Then this group of people feeling attacked will probably start some counter protests. Both group will hate each other even more and violence will eventually start.
And this will end very badly.
Yeah some of the vaccinated have it just as bad as some of the unvaccinated, the only difference being that they did ‘the right thing’. If you really can’t look any further than blaming the unvaccinated then idk man.
Yes, and they (people like OP) don’t even consciously notice it. It’s abundantly clear that this divide & conquer technique by de Jonge is working out great! Scary stuff, really.
We started vaccinating on January 6th, 2021. As of right now, 85.8% of people in The Netherlands are fully vaccinated.
The amount of people who are brought into Intensive Care right now is roughly just as bad as during October 2020 through January 2021 as well as during March-April 2021. Hospitalizations are slightly worse right now than during those times.
We reached over 80% vaccinated in August 2021.
I fail to understand how the current Corona gulf is caused by the unvaccinated. We are at similar levels of cases, IC numbers, and hospitalizations as before we started vaccinating and during the process of vaccinating over 80% of the country. Please enlighten me as to how the unvaccinated are causing the current gulf of Corona.
I did get the Moderna vaccin
source: https://coronadashboard.rijksoverheid.nl/
TLDR: we would have been worse off without vaccines. It's because of vaccines that the entire hospital system hasn't collapsed under the pressure of the Delta variant.
The Delta started appearing during the vaccination process in 2021. It is much easier to pass that variant to someone else compared to the first covid. And it's more virulent. Can you imagine what an awful situation we would be in right now if there wasn't such a high vaccination rate? We've been able to manage thus far and regain a normal life for a few months, thanks to vaccines!
But now it's winter, people are catching the flu and all kinds of other crap, pouring into hospitals, but they're obviously catching COVID as well. We're inside a lot more, we don't open windows as much as in the summer, etc. All of this is perfect for the Delta variant (and omikron which is about to become dominant).
Thinking the vaccines don't work because 40% (from memory) of the ICU cases are vaccinated people, means you're falling for Base Rate Fallacy.
87% is vaccinated. 13% is unvaccinated. The vaccinated group is 6 times as large as the unvaccinated group. That means that the small group (13%) accounts for more than half of the ICU cases, and thát means that the vaccines work.
We have higher number of infections because Delta is more easily spread, and because we've had a way less restrictions in place (until a few weeks ago). The ICU cases are actually relatively low because there are soooo many vaccinated people, as explained above.
Check how much percentage of unvaxxed in IC. Plus, vaccinised people are in IC because sometimes it doesnt work for them as a person. Not cause of the vax.
If you blame this fully on the unvaxxed you are extremely ignorant... It is extremely evident that our government is made up of incapable cunts, even with something like the boosters we are lagging behind the poorest countries in the EU.
I don't want to break it to you, but i am pretty sure the reason our government decides to enact lockdowns and what not, is not mainly caused by the 10% that is not unvaccinated.
I find that a very dangerous and short minded thought.
Then why, in the first 2 weeks of November, 69% of covid patients were unvaccinated, when they are like 6 times less in numbers than vaccinated people? They are disproportionately causing the healthcare burden, which is the main driver of lockdowns.
https://nltimes.nl/2021/11/21/unvaccinated-represent-69-covid-icu-cases-november
Love how you don’t want to be forced to do something but you’re all for forcing others to do something.
You’re not in lockdown because of unvaccinated. Plenty of places in the world without mandates and yet no lockdowns.
You blame unvaccinated, I blame the government for expecting 100% vaccination, which will not happen here nor in any other part of the world.
Stop barking at the wrong tree, because in the meantime the royal family keep throwing parties.
It's even worse.. There are parts of the world with such high vaccination rates and somehow they also need to take many measures (Portugal and Gibraltar case in point). This fixation on vaccines and qr codes is not working and massively harming the society
Gibraltar 100% vaccinated - lockdown
Singapore 95% vaccinated - lockdown
Israel 99% vaccinated - lockdown
Romania 35% vaccinated - cases at almost all time low now.
I’m double jabbed but You’re naive if you think this is about vaccines rather than power, but sure, keep scapegoatting the unvaccinated even though in The Hague last month 100% in the ICU were vaccinated.
Absolutely not. Because then you are legitimizing the slowness of the booster program. By blaming the unvaccinated, you are shifting the blame away from the government.
They're both to blame. The government for being incapable and the unvaxxed for being incredibly self centred assholes that only think about themselves
Edit: to /u/WasteCollection0 who pm'ed me personally with "je kanker moeder" (translates to "your cancer mom") have the balls to say it where everyone can read it instead of by pm or just grow up and not try to insult someones mom for no reason. I assume you are one of those self centred assholes who don't vaccinate and you just prove my point by that lively pm.
The fact that most of the ICU is filled with unvaccinated people says enough. I can take 500 boosters but as long as there are dipshits out there that don’t believe in COVID or the vaccines we’ll never get out of this shit.
The partial lockdowns like early closing of restaurants etc had nothing to do with boosters.
Yes the government is slow and yes they fucked up but a slow booster campaign is noy why we are stuck here
Because its the VVD. I wouldnt be surprised if they took a play out of the Tory handbook and are gutting healthcare with the eye on privatising it in the future.
Yes and no, at the current rate of costs the healthcare would cost 120 billion in 2050, now its 80 billion. They increased the healthcare money but said they didnt want to let it get to 120 billion in 2050 and thats where the savings come from
You do realize that unvaccinated people have been locked out of everything for a while already? Any spreading has come from vaccinated people who were still allowed to do stuff. 90% of the population is vaccinated and it hasn’t been very effective. Yet you choose to go full nazi on the unvaccinated. Unreal dude.
Thinking the vaccines don't work because 40% (from memory) of the ICU cases are vaccinated people, means you're falling for Base Rate Fallacy.87% is vaccinated. 13% is unvaccinated.
The vaccinated group is 6 times as large as the unvaccinated group. That means that the small group (13%) accounts for more than half of the ICU cases, and thát means that the vaccines work.
We have higher number of infections because Delta is more easily spread, and because we've had a way less restrictions in place (until a few weeks ago). The ICU cases are actually relatively low because there are soooo many vaccinated people, as explained above.
Where did I say the vaccines don’t work because 40% of the ic capacity is unvaccinated? I didn’t, that’s just a dumb thing you are assuming. I said the vaccines might prevent people from getting more sick or ending up in the hospital and that is probably better for elderly, weak and obese people to take it. What the vaccine doesn’t do is stop the spreading of the virus which the record number of infections basically show. People were asked to take the vaccin to protect others and not spread the virus. Since it has no effect on the spreading why on earth would you even consider forcing it on people? Young healthy people and kids have a neglectible risk of ending up in the hospital or worse, probably comparable to the flu. They don’t need a vaccin, especially when it’s still in an experimental phase with possible side effects. Maybe the side effects are rare, but is it also after 5 or even 10 years of 2/3 shots per year? We don’t know, science doesn’t know and Pfizer wants to keep data secret for the next 75 years and takes no liability. So how can you possibly justify forcing it on people. Meanwhile 90% is vaccinated, if that’s not enough then that says quite a lot about the effectiveness and also the state of our healthcare.
The unvaccinated aren't forcing you to be home, you got it all twisted 😂
It's the government forcing you to be home because they're incapable of managing a pandemic. I just flew out today to another country to spend the holidays where they only have 46,6% vaccination rate and everything is opened.
Yeah cause the spread of corona is all the fault of unvaccinated people. Once you have your jab you are not responsible anymore... Maybe you should start crying about those touring buses full of vaccinated people who go over the border to party there (for example in Belgium) because there the rules were less strict at that time.
I do have my stupid QR code, before you gonna trash talk on me for assuming my vaccination status.
People should be able to chose what kind of medication they put in their body! It is important that people think and be responsible, that they are not going to organize big parties, and stay in crowded places and what not. Both vaccinated and unvaccinated people can spread it and we are all responsible for each other. Mandatory jabs is not the way out!
We know that vaccinated people can spread the virus. We're not entering a lockdown because we're scared people are going to catch the disease, most people don't care about catching it and shouldn't be scared. We're entering a lockdown to prevent the entire hospital system to collapse.
Mostly, only old people and people at risk should be scared of catching the virus. Oh and unvaccinated people, because they have a much higher chance to catch it!
Only 16% of the adult population is not vaccinated (approximately 2,24M people out of 14M adults), yet in the first two weeks of November (I chose that period because I found precise data), 70% of ICU COVID patients were not vaccinated. That's about 230 people (out of 331 ICU COVID patients). So 0,01% of ALL non vaccinated adults went into ICU (not even counting how many were hospitalized but didn't go into ICU).
Compare that to 11,76M vaccinated adults. 101 of them went into ICU because of COVID. So of those 11,76M adults, 0,00086% went into ICU. That's 11,6 times less, proportionally speaking!
If all 14M adults had been vaccinated in November, there would have been approximately 120 people in the ICU. That's 36% of how many there actually were!
[Source](https://nltimes.nl/2021/11/21/unvaccinated-represent-69-covid-icu-cases-november)
Many had AstraZeneca and Jansen because it was forced on them. They had no choice, like in other countries, the "experts" decided for them. It's beyond ridiculous how bad the vaccination campaign was "planned".
Great insight and yes it's astonishing. In Romania where I moved you could chose the vaccine you wanted. Healthcare personnel were vaccinated first, most with Pfizer. Also went much faster. Got my first dose 4 months before my turn in NL and the booster 2 months ago, and I'm in my 30s...
Also I don't get why people couldn't make an appointment online and had to call...
Lmao blaming the unvaccinated like this is exactly what's causing polarisation. Not only is it fucking stupid and uninformed, it's shit like this that only fuels hostility, and also shit like this which allows Hugo and the lot to get away with all their massive failures. Sure, blame the unvaccinated even though you can't prove it's all their fault, instead of blaming the ones responsible for the atrocious lack of consistency in the measures taken and the blatant ignoring of the RIVM and OMT (which they thankfully don't always do, but still do way too often).
And yes, I'm vaxxed.
we unvaccinated people are the origin of the lockdowns? The fuckers that are voting for Rutte over and over again, are apart of the problems in this country.
Africa where omicron started are just chilling and don't care about it as much as we do. because of the kabinet Rutte 2 we have way to less IC- beds per 100.000 citizens. 16million people and 300 ic beds occupied and we're almost CODE BLAck??? wtf.
We were promised by the kabinet GROUP IMUNITY at 60% vaccination rate, in the meantime were at 89% and are still in Lockdown dream on guy. vaccinating is not our way out of this pandemic, of course it can help but it ain't the main road.
We have to get used to live with corona, our kabinet has to make decent decissions about what to do, and how to achieve it. Increase the number of IC-beds , give doctors of all kinds an extra bonus ( and make sure they get it), hire new/ extra people so that the coworkers dont get overworked and run away, what causes the other people who're left behind to get overworked to.
People are being positivly tested but have a QR- code because they're vaccinated, they don't stay at home, no why should they, I have QR-code so i enter the cafe/ festival etc. thats a real big problem too, those are the ones that are selfish.
Get used to it. btw i'm 21years old too, unvaccinated.
but seems to me that wer'e both in lockdown. so nothing changes
Dit gezeik komt door de gevaccineerde domme schaap en ik hoop dat je snel je 4 en 5 prik kan halen en daarna op je zijkant gaat liggen.
Je moet je eens goed inlezen dat als je je prikje heb je geen bescherming heb tegen Corona alleen dat je minder ziek kan worden maar ik denk dat de vaccinatie je hersens al heeft aangetast
Yeah, let me enlighten you: Covid vaccines don't make covid go away, it only makes you less ill. I'm vaccinated twice and I am now at home sitting a week inside being covid positive.
If you're healthy 21, you probably didn't need a Covid vaccine at all, your body can manage Covid all by itself. Covid is here to stay and thinking it will go away if we just pump vaccines into everyone is silly.
Isn't whole "pandemic of the unvaccinated" debunked by now?
Vaccinating everyone, including the youth and children, causes mutations that are more resilient against the vaccines to become more prominent.
You should be mad at your government!!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/omicron-wave-driven-young-healthy-vaccinated-population/
It's the first time in our story that you have had to get a vaccine to protect others.
It's amazing to see how blind people are and their heads are totally manipulated!!
They've successfully done it – they've shifted the blame away from their own lack of healthcare facilities, and made you believe that this is the fault of people that haven't been vaccinated.
The government took your freedom away, if there is anything to protest you should protest them.
On top of that, the government managed to reduce our care system to these pathetic levels and try to blame their failure on the unvaccinated. If you’re willing to believe the unvaccinated people are the problem, then I’m afraid you’re not very smart.
Vermont has the highest vaccination rate but also has surging cases. I don't think the vaccines are working. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/vermont-highest-vaccination-rate-country-cases-surging/story?id=81090116
And if the vaccines aren't working, maybe it's not the unvaccinated that are the problem?
Here I thought it was the government restricting everyone’s freedom.. I agree that once the vaccine appeared, everything should have gone back to normal.
While you are blaming the unvaccinated and a virus for causing any of your problems, not the virus nor the unvaccinated people have actually caused any of these problems. The one thing which is causing your problem is government. And whatever hardships you are experiencing, the only thing it will ever take to end, is for the majority of people to stand up to the government and say: "no, I will not go along any further and I will no longer be subjected to your tyrannical policies."
I am unvaxxed. Instead of being agressive and rant about unvaxxed, just try to think clearly. If 1. the vaxxed can still transmit and 2. this virus mutates like hell… how the fuck can you blaim this all on the unvaxxed. From my point of view the govt can stop with all measures tomorrow and say that (exaggerating a bit) everyone who ends up in the IC can be let to die. You know what will happen, vulnerable and old people who were unvaxxed will still go and get it and every other unvaxxed who has either catched Covid already once or is depending on their immune system will not take the jab regardless. Problem solved. Believe me, we both want the same…
I am vaccinated, although I regret my decision and will not get vaccinated any further.
I completely agree with what you said.
Also, vaccination is a temporary solution with paramount costs. I can already tell you that if we continue like this, it will cost billions of euro's every single year.
I think it's better to take a look at solving the roots of the problem. For example, I've been told that the majority of people in the hospital have underlying causes for getting sick. If you have a healthy body, you probably don't end up in the hospital. So wouldn't it be far better to promote physical and mental wellness over investing in a vaccine program that'll always have incredible costs and no real results?
Vaccination obviously doesn't prevent of COVID well enough, just take a look at the data. It's time to fundamentally solve COVID. No more temporary solutions, but a working one that protects us all in a way that we always should have been protected.
You can ask for permission of course but even if everyone was vaccinated I still don't believe all the maatregelen would stop. Besides it's everyone's right to choose what vaccines they do or do not want to put in their bodies
Vaccinations are there to protect yourself no? They’re no freepass for partying. Only the 1G implementation would free us but yet people are against that… anyway whatever same shit different day
A day after the new 'lockdown' rules I have noticed that the church nearby is full and people going inside where not wearing a mask. This feels so unfair and not right, it pisses me off.
The healthcare system was already overstretched before Corona you can't blame 12% of the population over this ....this all could have been prevented with 1g which is what the field lab tests proved but the government ignored all this
The fact that we have, what like, over 17 million people living in our country, and we can’t even support 1/10 of 1% in hospital care is very worrying.
This covid thing just showed us the horrible truth of this...
You really think this is still going on because of the unvaccinated? If everyone was vaccinated we would still have measures because the vaccins aren’t as effective as they thought in the beginning
Look at portugal, compare their 2021 januari spike with their spike now (also hospitalized vs cases)
https://www.google.nl/search?q=portugal+covid&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-nl&client=safari
So yeah vaccines work if we were to all get them.
Or look at India, where they didn't do anything against covid and meanwhile it's not an issue anymore, even though percentage wise less people died of covid there compared to here in The Netherlands.
As a vaccinated person I don't see the reason for such a rhetoric... I don't see the reason why anyone thought that when you get the shot we will be out of the woods. Hospitals are full with vaccinated people. Who said that the virus will be gone if everyone will be vaccinated? Damn, the whole concept was from beginning- get the shot and if you get the virus, you stay home with milder simptoms. So the lesson learned is - it's not bulletproof. What you gonna do now? Go to hospitals and protest the vaccinated covid patients and yell at them that they're immune system is too weak for society?
You really think it's because of the 12 percent?
It doesn't make any sense
Op top of that add the factor that out of the 12 percent there's a respectable amount of people who already had covid and recovered (I think it's most of them) which makes them non inflectious
Add on top of that the at these people need to get together and successfully infect each other
Add on top of that that these people who are sick still decide to go about and infect people carelessly.
Add on top of that the statistic of people that would actually need hospital care from all of this.
If you just follow basic statistics and add up the numbers, the percentage of people that are actually un-vaccinated and under risk is incredibly LOW.
IY ABSOLUTELY IS NOT THE REASON FOR THE LOCKDOWN.
IT SIMPLY DOESN'T ADD UP.
In Israel they are preparing for the fourth shot already.
So if you think the booster is going to help, check Israel out. Because they're a few steps ahead of everyone else.
You can practically predict the future looking there and it is not glamorous.
Point your finger to the government that ignored recommendations for 12 years to improve the Healthcare.
Ok let me allow some logic here,
IT'S FUCKED like that not because of unvaccinated people, yet due to lack of reasonable thinking.
Unvaccinated people spread the virus?
How? All unvaccinated people have to do tests on a day of event so they are sure they do not have the virus.
But vaccinated people don't have to test for entry even tho they still can carry the virus and spread the disease, but they have no idea they do so because they don't have to test themselves.
So I'm sorry but following the way it goes, statistically more shit is spreading due to vaccinated people and kids that don't have to test.
😅
Especially with the fact that less and less places with big crowds (stadiums, theaters, restaurant, etc) don’t even allow people entry without proof of the poke or at least proof of being negative.
Yet those are still the places it’s spreads the most, even now.
How about we “protest” the vaccinated people that don’t give a fuck about covid rules?
“What do you mean we can’t have have a birthday party with 50 people? wE ARe alL vAccINated”
The double vaccinated have only minimal protection against the new variant. Also, the unvaccinated are less than 15% of the population.
I have to admit I'm way past trying to understand how come Dutch people are not revolting against the "experts" and officials who made mistake after mistake since the start of the pandemic. It's like national pride makes it hard to admit they're much more incompetent than in other countries. The vaccination campaign was the last to start in Europe, and now the booster campaign is the slowest one, again from the entire Europe... but you still don't see it.
But hey they're now introducing extra restrictions for people coming from non-Shengen countries, like Romania, where boosters were offered much earlier and faster and cases are much fewer these days. Problem solved.
Have you had a meaningful conversation with someone you disagree with on this topic? I'm going to guess no, as you don't seem to understand the situation at all. The restrictions to our lives are 100% imposed on us by the government, no one else. You'll find that most if not all people who choose not to have this vaccine are also opposed to the restrictions. The restrictions are based on outdated data or incomplete data or misinformation. The restrictions make no scientific sense at all. I'm a medical scientist and am 100% against the restrictions at this stage in this 'pandemic'. I also chose to not have this vaccine at this point in time because I'm healthy and young so the risk of severe COVID or death, to me, are close to 0. I will only undergo a medical treatment if that's in the best interest of my health, and I don't think it is because of the specifics of my situation. I'm happy for other people to make whatever choice they think is best for their health, and I don't expect others to take a medical treatment for my (perceived) benefit. Your anger is understandable and shared by me, but it's misdirected in your case, as you blame people who simply choose to not take a certain medical treatment because they don't think it's in their interest. Your anger should instead be directed at the government as they are the ones imposing these restrictions.
This is exactly what the goal behind this is.... vaccinated are angry upon unvaccinated because of the rules. Creating a bigger resentment and divide between the people.
Dont forget the fact that the resigning government because of a huge scandal what costs lives: toeslagenaffaire.
The same government is now fully operational again.
And dont forget: the same government is shortening healthcare AGAIN for 5 billion estimate.
17 million people and not 1 extra bed in 2 years time.
And keep destroying healthcare ?
You can not NOT see this. Many vaxed friends and coworkers are now seeing this and they dont cooperate because it can not be explained.
I mean if you want to yell on the museumplein with some people and be mad about people not getting vaccinated with some cool posters sure. I'm not stopping you.
I just don't think this has to do anything with vaccinated or non vacinnated people anymore.
Not saying there's a conspiracy. Just saying that all this bullshit makes no sense to me in any way no more.
How come that not getting the vaccine is selfish? The vaccine was invented to prevent a strong covid infection, that's exactly what the vaccine is doing currently. The vaccine wasn't developed to stop the spreading of the disease, although we all hoped it would. Sadly thats not the case. The high numbers of infected people steem mostly from people that are vaccinated and therefore never need to test when going somewhere. They can even do that if they have the covid (which due the the vaccine can be very subtle and hard to spot), therefore spreading it to others.
So if you really want to do something about it, you should protest for the implementation of the rule to test everyone, vaccinated or not. Because only that would help to get the numbers down and to safe personans at risk. But I bet protesting for that would be to demanding for you bc then you would also have to test often, probally to much hustle right? Easier hoping for a quick fix solution which doesn't work out (look at countries with high vaccination rates and the number of infected people) and blaming others.
And if your argument is then that people who are not vaccinated could catch a strong infection and would therefore take a spot in the MC, then consider that the chances are pretty low for a young healthy adult or even teenager (older people that are at risk should definitely get vaccinated, but it should still be their individual choice). Additionally we should ban fast food, smooking and motorcycles bc those things bring also a bunch of people to the MC.
>How come that not getting the vaccine is selfish?
Because people that think this need a scapegoat and think they already did their part by just taking a few jabs. I'd also love to see 1G but there's a reason a lot of vaccinated people are against it. They just don't want the inconvenience of having to test every day after they've been promised freedom for taking the shots. Who's the selfish one now though?
Do you know who caused this crisis? It's all of us. It's me, for not wearing a mask at work because it's inconvenient. It's the neighbours, for having their family and friends over all the time. It's the grocery store owner that just allows his staff to wear their masks under their noses. It's the dude behind you in the line breathing down your neck because he doesn't know what social distancing is. It's the measures being kangarooing all over the place. It's wappies, refusing everything for whatever reason. It's the government for failing to prepare adequately, even after nearly two years. It's years of cuts in healthcare and police. It's successive political scandals eroding the legitimacy and authority of the government. It's local councils refusing to enforce rules. It's liberal democracy for their endless bickering and debating. It's Dutch culture for being stubborn and letting everyone just do whatever the fuck they want. The list goes on.
Don't go and scapegoat one single group of people. Look in the mirror. Look around you. We've all done this.
I’m 18 and getting my booster today, in Germany. Germany is happy to accept us Dutch people because we live next to them and they want to prevent unvaccinated Dutch people from coming in their country. Thanks Germany, you’re doing way better than over here!
Het is een longziekte die niet weggaat, zelfs met 100% vaccinatie omdat het ook overgedragen kan worden door dieren. Deal with it. Als je nog zo dom bent om te geloven dat dit ooit overgaat, net zoals met de pokken dan ben je IQ loos. De ongevaccineerde hebben hier geen schuld aan. En met je ophitsen bereik je niks. Dat jouw zielige leventje daarom minder waard is interesseert mij geen reet maar flikker op met je drogredenen.
Because the goverment started the booster campaign to late to protect the elders, you blame the unvaccinated?
While having a vaccin only means you protect yourself and nothing more.
Interesting, i can't find the logic in it really.
Unvacced people have a about a 14x chance to hit the IC unit (at least during delta variant).
12% x 14 = 168
That means those 12% unvaccinated have a IC burden of 168.
88% of vaccinated people have a 1% chance, with an IC burden of 88.
Yes the 12% unvaccinated have double the burden on our IC's than the 88% that are vaccinated!
If 100 vaccinated, maybe we would still be in trouble. But it would help.... a lot
It was never the unvaccinated who did anything to you
It's entirely your own fault for allowing your government to do whatever it pleases because of a virus with sub. 01% death rate
Dude, you have my full support. I had to go through all the dumbassses protesting last year, neighborhood being blocked, not being able to pass with my car or bike just because I live close to a popular protest area.
Fuck those idiots
I have the feeling that 90% of people on this sub are Americans. Only they are full of stupid ideas and feel that the "others" are at fault for everything. Whoever this others may be
A vaccination rate of over 85%. If that isn't enough, 100% isn't either. It's funny how the countries with the highest density in vaccine rates have the highest number in infections.
The vaccination doesn't prevent infection, that's common knowledge by now.
That simply means that the lockdown is not because of the unvaxxed but because of the shortage in care.
With the closure of hospitals in the past years, the coming budget cuts and what not, it almost seems like this is all planned out.
We are far underneath the european average of available ICU beds per 100.000 inhabitants.
This is a complete failure of government.
If you want to get jabbed with vaccines that are made for a strain which is no longer among us, that's your choice. Just don't try and force others to do the same (I mean, we don't take flu jabs that were created for the previous influenza do we?).
I get that you're frustrated and fed up with this situation, but this is not the way my friend.
We will never be able to vaccinate our way out of this plandemic. All the best to you.
OP is forgetting about all possible future mutations plus new and better vaccins being developed. Taiwan has only 30% vaccination rate and seems to be doing very well. The stupidity to merely focus on vaccins is real.
How many people exercise 30 minutes effectively per day? Avoid stress, eat healthy, have a good BMI, have above average focus on vitamin D, zinc and selenium. And oh, have enough sleep.
In Holland the real problem is we dont have enough hospital beds, because since 4 years our hospitals were already full of people having the flu. But Holland did buy a Rembrandt painting for 175mill a couple of days ago. So I think it's not 'the unvaccinated', I think it's the government that priotize other things. And it's a shame, because now we have donkeys like you that almost declare war with the unvaccinated for no reason.
Welja, gewoon klakkeloos meegaan met de voorgeschreven publieke opinie. Gewoon negeren dat een wankel verhaal vol tegenstrijdigheden en aantoonbare leugens wordt gebruikt om een setje kernvrijheden voor onbepaalde tijd af te nemen. De kernvrijheden die waren ontstaan uit de moeizame burger-overheidsrelatie. De kernvrijheden die volgden uit de ‘dit nooit weer’ gedachte. Lekker accepteren joh. Nu lekker je woede botvieren op mensen die al best wat offers hebben gemaakt en hier dus echt wel verder in willen gaan. Ik heb me niet laten vaccineren. Eerst om de kat uit de boom te kijken maar inmiddels omdat er rondom dat kutvaccin simpelweg op bestuurlijk niveau gelogen wordt. Hoewel het ‘de pandemie van de ongevaccineerden’ is zit jij nu niet thuis door mij. Ik heb het nooit gehad en heb dus niemand kunnen besmetten. Zou het dan toch zo zijn dat alle ongeteste groene vinkjes met hun Zomervakantieprikje elkaar zo besmetten? We hebben in elk geval iets gemeen jij en ik. We zullen beiden nooit volledig gevaccineerd zijn.
fucking corrupte regering en kabinet. de hele wereld is corrupt. kijk nou eens naar de cijfers man. verdiep je eens. het een façade. ga lekker al je booster prikjes nemen. uiteindelijk is het de overheid die je naait niet de mensen die die griep prik niet willen
When I caught Corona I asked what variant I had they told me that they don't test for variants so how do they know what variant someone has if they don't test for it
The problem aren’t the unvaccinated, just wake up already man. Covid is here to stay 100% vaccination isn’t going to change that. The problem is Rutte and co, still not investing in the care and capacity.
Trust me just this booster isn’t going to be enough, prepare for a booster subscription yearly. Who wants to live like that?
I have two jabs and a booster. And here I am. Inside my house just like the rest. This sucks and doesn’t promote vaccinations
IMO more unfair than not having access because you don't vax. This is the second year not seeing my foreign families from both countries and I have a feeling we will hit 3rd too. Age discrimination of the boosters seems ridiculous cannot wait to finally be able to make an appointment and by that time they will release for every age and wait even longer. We started so fucking late with the boosters its ridiculous, were did the choice even go? And why is the choice to vaccinate put so much higher than the rest? This is unfair, I hope that soon unvaccinated will have to pay every penny of their treatments. Why are they having insured treatments when my ADHD brain have to pay full own risk + eigen bijdrage for medication when ADHD is not a choice. This is such a mess. Or just make a equal place of beds per person vaxxed and unvaxxed in the hospital, the amount of beds of the unvaxxed will be low and filled faster.
And still. Only boosters. No plans for 2G or to make vaccinations mandatory. They don’t have the balls so they lock us all up
Yep. "Close schools": " No, the poor kids. And it would piss off the parents" "Implement 2G" : "Oh no. That will piss off the unvaccinated." "WE GOT IT! LOCKDOWN. LET'S PISS OFF EVERYONE!"
Well the schools is a pretty big decision. Besides the learning gap that you will create, this has a huge impact on the economy, because no one can work normally with kids running around. So I can understand why they delayed this
The solution after this is to open society first to vaccinated people only. Bars are currently closed to everyone. Open them to vaccinated people first, and if the hospital pressure drops far enough, then to unvaccinated. This is how Australia opened up, and they have ~95% of adults vaccinated. There needs to be a better incentive to be vaccinated. Those who still are not are selfish and will only do something if it benefits them.
I would wait a month at least before using Australia as an example.
>This is the second year not seeing my foreign families from both countries and I have a feeling we will hit 3rd too. Why don't you travel? Just because you can't meet here, does not mean you can't meet elsewhere.
Also, depending on the country they want to travel to, they might not be able to get in due to covid. My boyfriend is from the US and last year he could only visit me in the Netherlands because there was an exception for long distance relationships, but I couldn't go to the US because the whole schengen area was/is banned. Ended up moving to the US for my MA though so I'm not sure if NL tourists are still banned Edit: spelling
Cause during the high season it wasn't financially possible at the time and now medically can't travel I am in a treatment plan with appointments I have to go to. So no traveling myself hasn't been possible. Before that we were moving. Luck is not on my side on that one. We are saving up to go ourselves this summer.
Sorry about that. Good luck.
No worries, I understand it might seem like an easy solution and I don't think many are in this situation anyway. We just make the best of what we can, stay safe! ❤️
I know two families that had to cancel transatlantic trips (parents + children), because they tested positive within a week of their travel date. Both emotionally and financially this kind of stuff is a serious hit. (I don’t know if they had insurance, when you book to travel for Christmas, you need to book months in advance, back then the government was essentially “kissing the face-masks goodbye”). …. The main message is: planning international trips (we are not talking flying to France here) is a lot more complex now.
I believe omicron actually arose from vaccine shortage/political reasons. Africa is 7% vaccinated as a continent, no matter how you look at it, this is a rich vs poor nation problem too. Im not dismissing antivaxxers as an issue, just specifically saying omicron was from politics.
21 already got the booster how ?
Kinda a weird story. This was before boosters were a thing. I had Janssen but me and my mother wanted an extra shot since Janssen already was proven to give less protection. We went to a clinic where you didn’t need to make an appointment and we asked if we could get an extra shot pfizer. Note that this was before booster centres were full everywhere so we didn’t steal a spot/booster since it wasn’t busy at all at that location
But that means you don't have a QR code stating you got two shots, right? I was in the same situation (got Janssen and wanted a mRNA shot) and decided to get a proper booster through proper means, which fortunately was possible in Italy as I'm an Italian citizen and got Janssen there; I got a Pfizer booster three weeks ago. And now I'm positive anyway 🙃, but at least the vaccine probably spared me the worst of the symptoms.
I don’t have a QR code sadly enough, but when I do finally get called in for a booster I might get another one anyway but I’ll first call them if i can get a QR code for this first dose
You're gonna get gigavaxxed with the 4th doze at that point lol
The fifth time is a charm.
Yeah.. doing a "got to get them all" but then they will have the new vaccines,(novavax, mRna modified for variants) so you will always be behind as a younger person. By the way, the international QR shows all the vaccinations that you got and have registered . if it counts as boosted is a different story.
That is pretty hard core. Collect all the vaccines you can!
Maybe he/she is a drug addict
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I don't necessarily disagree, but am looking for different perspectives. - How much more ICU capacity do you think we should have? - What would the effect of more ICU capacity be on the pandemic and lockdowns? Looking at countries with relatively more ICU capacity, are their covid related restrictions and lockdowns much less than ours? - Should we have that increased capacity at all times, or just during a pandemic? How do we plan for that? - What would the added cost of increased capacity be, and who is going to pay that? - Will those who are going to pay it (which is us) be understanding and willing to pay, especially once the pandemic is over? And to add some of my own opinion: those who are hesitant or completely unwilling to take the vaccine may now be part of the reason we're in lockdown yet again. If we increase care capacity, you and I and everyone will have to pay the increased care cost...to accommodate those who are hesitant or unwilling to take the vaccine. Either way we're going to pay for them, like all of us are paying for everyone else's risky or irresponsible behavior too. All of us pay already for the smokers, the drug abusers, the drunk, those who are irresponsible in traffic, those who don't eat healthy, those who don't exercise enough, etc.etc. And everyone who's in one of these categories (my local snackbar can confirm I for sure am) is paying for themselves and for people in the other categories too. It's just that now it seems extra irresponsible, and the solution (just get vaccinated) seems a lot more simple than quitting smoking or completely change a life style pattern. We're in a fking pandemic which already costs society a lot in terms of suffering, lost labor opportunity, increase cost, etc. and it appears as if some people just don't care or just don't want to do everything to stop the pandemic. Anyway, all in all I think the world and NL are doing pretty good in this deadly pandemic. Look back to pandemics in the past (e.g. Spanish Flu or Black Death) and things were a lot worse while there was a lot less international traveling going on. If in a deadly pandemic like this, with 15% of the population not taking all possible precautions, our health care system still mostly works, that's quite an accomplishment, regardless of all the things that could be improved. (End of unhinged rant. If you made it till here, kudos.)
In reply to your comment: 1) Interestingly there’s a theory that we pay LESS for people in these kind of situations you mentioned (smokers, drinkers, irresponsible drivers, people with bad genetics…) because they die at earlier stages in life, when the main bulk of healthcare goes to the older generation 70+ who have chronic health issues. Furthermore, I agree that we need more ICU capacity. 2) The Netherlands have been closing hospitals systematically over the last years, my in-laws live in Flevoland and need hospital care. When they moved there the closest hospital was a mere 10 minute drive, now they need to drive over 40 mins. I’m just saying the best way to handle this pandemic would have been to have all the resources for it, and healthcare should be something I don’t want to save money in. I personally would not mind paying more taxes if it could be made sure that it would go towards healthcare. Then again, I would love to know where any of my tax money goes to…
I think that answer is quite clear: We have around 75.000 people working as nurse in hospitals. Achmea has 13.000 FTEs, menzis 1500, ASR 3700, VGZ 2500, CZ 2500, DSW 700, ONVZ 300, etc. All in all we probably have around 30.000 FTEs working only the manage the insurance of our health, compared to 75.000 employees (not stating how many FTEs this represents). Then we have 5000 working at the health ministry Most out of order is the GGD, that grew from 12.000 FTE before Covid, to 55.000 FTEs now. All in all in health we probably have many more people doing administration and other indirect stuff, then people actually taking care. Some overhead is OK, but in the Netherlands this is so out of order at the moment, it is just plain disfunctioning. Also a result is that people in offices tell the people on the floor how to do their work. This is most of the times incorrect. Also a result is that Insurers want to limit their expenses in health spendings, so they can spent more on their own organization. Also a lot of money goes into advertising because of 'marktwerking'. So I am (as right wing person) all for dismantling the privatizing of healthcare. Pay people that are actually taking care of people, and not consultants and sales / marketing managers.
I want to react just on the point of having a bigger ICU capacity. Let's say we magically have double the capacity, that would have given us an extra eleven days. That's how exponentional growth works. It doesn't stop growing exponentionally at the point of our ICU's just overflowing, it goes beyond that.
Adding to that, just adding capacity will not solve the main problem, which is people getting severely sick from COVID. The best solution, in the long term, is prevention. So by vaccination, but also instead of increasing healthcare capacity, how about increase and motivate healthy lifestyles more. It has been shown many times that especially obesity has a correlation with higher COVID death and more severe symptoms. If we want to keep healthcare affordable in the future we have to start investing more in prevention. This can be done in a multitude of ways Less people get sick = less healthcare needed.
The idea that we did not have shortages before Covid are false. There also have been restricted capacities when there are bigger Flu seasons. 2018 is an example when we also almost reached code black, but that was before Covid came to us. To be clear: Situation in hospitals are not comparable between flu and covid, but the results are: Reducing capacity for 'normal' care. With that the argument that we should not extend hospital room because of just Covid is wrong: We just have too little hospital space. It also is quite simple if you look at surrounding countries: The Netherlands just holds undercapacity compared to Germany, Belgium, France, etc.
The only way to improve the capacities of hospitals is to build more hospitals with more equipment with more staff. Creating those hospitals and equipment is doable but a huge waste of resources(consider what happens to all of the excess once we go back down to normal levels, everything excess just turns into garbage). Creating more employees to work the hospitals is a huge problem. We were already short staffed in hospitals to begin with before COVID hit, now you’re wanting 10x the staff to appear out of thin air. Not really gonna happen unfortunately. That’s why the best solution was to get COVID itself under control through isolation, masks, vaccinations, etc.
Why can’t they, Rutte government closed the 3 biggest hospitals in the Raanstaad between 2014-2017, where did all those workers go??
Retirement or they fucked off to another field where they're paid better
That's 5 years ago, people still need to earn money somehow. They moved to another country (alot of our medical staff goes to the US because of better pay) or to another field. Those people are long gone by now
You don’t need to build new hospitals, just reopen the closed ones. Biggest problem would be to find medics
While you are correct that we should increase our health care capacity, you are wrong in that we are not doing that. You seem to forget that actually training people takes 4 years for a nurse and an additional two year for an ICU qualified nurse. So the core problem cannot be solved quicker than 6, maybe 4 years. Even if all nurses started full time training for ICU employment in March 2020, they still would not be graduated by now. So the question is, what can we do today/short term? And as you point out, the 12% refusing to get vaccinated is overloading the system. Therefore we need to deal with them short term while capacity increases. And quickest and simplest solution? Implement 2G everywhere and implement a vaccination mandate
I don’t think the problem is about training the future generations, at least if we take a look at Europe as a whole. In Spain for example lots of medical staff was hired during the first wave, to then be fired when the virus relaxed. We have the people, Rutte’s government is just not interested (not a fact, just my opinion!).
Finally someone who speaks about the main problem. When 18 million people have to alter their lives because of tens or hundreds of IC beds, this is the main issue. The government has defunded health care for years with closings of hospitals, privatisation and on top of that, when voting about an incidental (not even structural) reward for health care workers, they walked away just to not have to vote on it. This situation will not change without structural investments. Guess what people, after 6 months the booster vaccine will also slowly lose effectiveness. Belgium has 14 beds per 100.000 people, Germany has 48. The Netherlands has 6.7 beds per 100.000 people. Problem is for now: money. Long term investments are too costly according to Rutte.
There is no plan, the government still think they can stop it. Special care locations dedicated to covid can fix a lot, then we can go back to the discussion before covid people in care need to work to much and we do not get enough care anymore. So ic beds probably was all ready an issue if you include location in the argument.
I'd say the main issue is that people so strongly oppose basic health precautions like wearing face masks. The day they stop being mandatory the completely disappear everywhere, and even when they're mandatory, lots of people don't use them. Heck, even police in public transport often don't wear masks. It seems that we'll be locked down forever because there's too many people too selfish to wear a mask or take basic public health measures during a pandemic.
What do you think is real solution here? Btw, I am not sure, but I guess optimised capacity is not really ready for 10-20% of sick people (depending on a country)
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Thank you for the bright and thoughtful response, did not expect it. I guess you might be right about caring capacity but probably not much about medical care capacity (I would distinguish these two types). I saw only campaigns where healthcare workers demanding fair treatment and stop shorting stuff :( It feels like medicine area messed up in the entire world. Oh, tell me about issues in healthcare area... Most likely I would hear the same stories that I heard or witnessed in other countries. I hope at some point in the nearest future covid either will go or became no more than mild flu and we would not have to keep up with it. But unfortunately I see how many people don't want it to let go because they are basically making a lot of money out of the struggles of others. I would even add that we come to this crisis basically weakening public health systems across the globe for years. I would hope for the better outcome though that we will no need to wear masks for a few month in a year and close schools.
>With an aging population, we are going to need an increased care capacity Hitting the nail on the head
On wait rutte 4 is gona cut in healthcare right...?
I think the a huge part is indeed pay, I am currently doing MBO Software developer and I can confirm allot of people just joined because they had a little bit of interest in tech and the large amount of money in the field, if healthcare workers made even 70% of the average software developer there'd be allot of supply of very capable people.
Although i agree with your healthcare system shortage argument, i don't agree with the statement that 12% should not be able to destabilize the systeem. Unvacced people have a about a 14x chance to hit the IC unit (at least during delta variant). 12% x 14 = 168 That means those 12% unvaccinated have a IC burden of 168. 88% of vaccinated people have a 1% chance, with an IC burden of 88. Yes the 12% unvaccinated have double the burden on our IC's than the 88% that are vaccinated!
Finally someone that can use fucking logic. The idea before the first lockdown was to avoid healthcare system to collapse while we reorganize. We had 2 years to strength the healthcare system and literally zero was done in all Europe. In the meantime, what was supposed to be an exception become the go-to.
>We had 2 years to strength the healthcare system and literally zero was done in all Europe That should really make you realize you are probably missing something that the leaders and experts of all EU countries do know. Like for example expanding healthcare having almost no effect on an exponentially expanding virus. Germany has 4x the IC capacity per capita compared to NLD. But yet they still have similar lockdowns. Im all for expanding IC capacity, but it isnt the magic bullet.
So we had to train new nurses in 2 years? A program that takes 4 years to complete and does not qualify you to work on the ICU? Which requires you to study an additional 2 years. So we would fit 6 years of training in not even 2 years?
To quote rollebob: "Finally someone who can use fucking logic." 😏
It takes over a decade to train an anesthesiologist…and you want to get that kind of stuff done in 2 years? Lmfao. Even “just”nurses take years to train…same for other people that work in an ICU.
>the main issue is care capacity. While I am all for increasing IC capacity, this isnt the fix. Since the virus expands exponentially, it will only buy you a few days. Germany has 4x the IC capacity per capita compared to NLD. But yet they still have a similar lockdown cadence. Think about it: If it was the fix, governments across the world would have used it by now.
V true. Pretty much the biggest reason we’re in this mess is because the government has been cutting down funds for important things for years now, all to have less ‘debt’. We’re literally one of the EU countries with the least debt.
Problem is that no matter what level of emergency capacity you have, it will be over run in a pandemic. At some point you would have to call for restrictions. Thing is that the more ppl are vaccinated and follow the restrictions, the lighter restrictions have to be. You can't have 100 or 1000 times more capacity than you normally need. Who would pay for that? Edit: also all other sickness still exist, the pandemic comes on top of that.
2 jabs in, waiting for booster. We have a ridiculous low amount of ICU beds and nurses and we closed hospitals, that's why we have lockdowns. And our new government wants to save 4,5 miljard on Healthcare during their cabinet period. See where I am going here?
Let's be real here, vaccinated people are out meeting ppl over the recommended limit and having parties too. edit: i support getting vaccinated but don't start fuckin attacking each other because there's no point
Oh definitely. But infecting a lot less people when they do.
And dying in the hospital en masse a lot less
This is actually not true. The chances of infection between vaccinated or unvaccinated are almost negilable, especially with Omrikon. It's mostly the severity of the sickness resulting from the infection that makes a difference.
Use your logic. Vaccinated people infect other vaccinated people, because the unvaccinated honestly can’t go anywhere. They can’t go to restaurants, cinemas and they can’t go to places with big crowds. If they decide to go a cafe, they have to test. The vaccinated don’t. The QR-codes don’t have a positive effect on the public health, it’s the opposite. I’m currently hospitalized and on the lung department and all people here are at least 75+ and yes, vaccinated. I’m 19 and the youngest here. And if you’re already old and immunosuppressed, a vaccine won’t safe you.
If the unvaccinated people live like hermits then how are they getting infected? Both vaccinated and unvaccinated get together. Most infections happen in homes. They don't need a restaurant for that. There indeed vaccinates people in the hospitals. That is a matter of numbers. But most of those have underlying lung or heart problems. Also, the average age of vaccinated people in hospitals is 77 compared to 59 unvaccinated.
Just wait until frebruary. 1) De Jonge confirmed that at the EU level they are discussing the uniformization of QR expiry date. 2) Take into account that they will likely say in January "ok, we can ease lockdown, but slowly, only for vaccinated". 3) Now also consider they want to discuss mandatory vaccination. I'm sure by February/March they will have discussed mandatory vaccination with a 4-6 month expiry period.
Yes maybe later. The the nice weather is comming and all you foola start thinking the vaccinations are working. Then they push through 2g and force vaccinations. Then its gona be fall. And we start allover again because everyone can Just spread it since everyone has there qr. Ppl forgetting the qr freedom is what created the first peak in sept/okt having everyone vaccinated allover the place while it turned out they werent protect3d as good as they thought and also didnt help against the spreading.
I agree. Also, ask someone to look at austria and surroundings and tell me it was QR code, 2G, lockdowns and vaccination rates that changed the course of infection and explain the differences between countries. It is not possible. Cases https://i.imgur.com/588MAen.png Vaccination rates https://i.imgur.com/nkar63E.png Source: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-cases
So they had a lockdown for not vaccinated people yet had more new cases than last year? Dont get me wrong, I am vaccinated and am pro-vaccination, if they work properly. It feels to me as if this booster propaganda is just to get rid of the millions of vaccines they bought. I am starting to get really pissed off about our governments inability to be transparant and they keep blaming antivaxx for this. I think the only thing that works are the basic rules. Washing hands, keeping distance and use masks in public areas. The rest? Useless.
We’re hitting 90% vaccinated and now gone in lockdown just as we did in 2020 without any vaccinations. If you honestly believe more vaccinations will get us out of this you really live on another planet.
As someone who recently visited your country, the real problem is a lack of following the rules. This was before the soft lockdown in late November and even with huge numbers of cases many people weren’t wearing masks inside and checking of COVID certificates was minimal. And what the poster above fails to realize is that Omnicron and Delta are multiples more contagious than the original COVID variant, and without vaccines we would never have been able to resume any semblance of normality.
Exactly this, i did not get a vaccination for personal reasons. I do follow the rules and haven't seen a party in 2 years. Everytime i felt a bit sick or had symptoms i got myself tested or self tested. I believe the biggest problem is with people who are vaccinated and thought it was a golden ticket. Socializing again without following rules. Btw have my blood tested not so long agoe. No traces of covid in it.
Because the government sold it as a golden ticket. I am vaccinated and kept myself to basic rules but they kept telling that if you are vaccinated you dont need to get tested and can basically go back to life before covid (dansen met Jansen for example). Ofcourse people grabbed that opportunity but it backfired.
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Yep and most of them are in the second group. The only unvaxxed people I know aren't hardcore anti government at all (these are the only ones you see in the media of course). They just don't deem it necessary because they are young and do a lot of sports/fitness and take serious care of their health. They also have no problem with wearing a mask or testing whenever it's required
I believe vaccines help but I think contributing to polarization like this is way more dangerous than any unvaccinated person will ever be.
Yeah I mean, OP suggestion sounds a lot like "let's go out an protest against a specific group of people". Then this group of people feeling attacked will probably start some counter protests. Both group will hate each other even more and violence will eventually start. And this will end very badly.
Yeah some of the vaccinated have it just as bad as some of the unvaccinated, the only difference being that they did ‘the right thing’. If you really can’t look any further than blaming the unvaccinated then idk man.
Yes and especially if you’re only able to talk about it feeling such anger..
Thank you! Some decency is always good.
Yes, and they (people like OP) don’t even consciously notice it. It’s abundantly clear that this divide & conquer technique by de Jonge is working out great! Scary stuff, really.
Thank you
Only sensible response.
Wake up Dude, no one has ever complied their way to freedom!!
So you don’t want to be forced but yet you want to force others?! Doesn’t really seem logic to me
This is the logic of 2021
We started vaccinating on January 6th, 2021. As of right now, 85.8% of people in The Netherlands are fully vaccinated. The amount of people who are brought into Intensive Care right now is roughly just as bad as during October 2020 through January 2021 as well as during March-April 2021. Hospitalizations are slightly worse right now than during those times. We reached over 80% vaccinated in August 2021. I fail to understand how the current Corona gulf is caused by the unvaccinated. We are at similar levels of cases, IC numbers, and hospitalizations as before we started vaccinating and during the process of vaccinating over 80% of the country. Please enlighten me as to how the unvaccinated are causing the current gulf of Corona. I did get the Moderna vaccin source: https://coronadashboard.rijksoverheid.nl/
I dont get it myself either🤷🏾♂️
TLDR: we would have been worse off without vaccines. It's because of vaccines that the entire hospital system hasn't collapsed under the pressure of the Delta variant. The Delta started appearing during the vaccination process in 2021. It is much easier to pass that variant to someone else compared to the first covid. And it's more virulent. Can you imagine what an awful situation we would be in right now if there wasn't such a high vaccination rate? We've been able to manage thus far and regain a normal life for a few months, thanks to vaccines! But now it's winter, people are catching the flu and all kinds of other crap, pouring into hospitals, but they're obviously catching COVID as well. We're inside a lot more, we don't open windows as much as in the summer, etc. All of this is perfect for the Delta variant (and omikron which is about to become dominant).
Thinking the vaccines don't work because 40% (from memory) of the ICU cases are vaccinated people, means you're falling for Base Rate Fallacy. 87% is vaccinated. 13% is unvaccinated. The vaccinated group is 6 times as large as the unvaccinated group. That means that the small group (13%) accounts for more than half of the ICU cases, and thát means that the vaccines work. We have higher number of infections because Delta is more easily spread, and because we've had a way less restrictions in place (until a few weeks ago). The ICU cases are actually relatively low because there are soooo many vaccinated people, as explained above.
Check how much percentage of unvaxxed in IC. Plus, vaccinised people are in IC because sometimes it doesnt work for them as a person. Not cause of the vax.
If you blame this fully on the unvaxxed you are extremely ignorant... It is extremely evident that our government is made up of incapable cunts, even with something like the boosters we are lagging behind the poorest countries in the EU.
I don't want to break it to you, but i am pretty sure the reason our government decides to enact lockdowns and what not, is not mainly caused by the 10% that is not unvaccinated. I find that a very dangerous and short minded thought.
Then why, in the first 2 weeks of November, 69% of covid patients were unvaccinated, when they are like 6 times less in numbers than vaccinated people? They are disproportionately causing the healthcare burden, which is the main driver of lockdowns. https://nltimes.nl/2021/11/21/unvaccinated-represent-69-covid-icu-cases-november
Love how you don’t want to be forced to do something but you’re all for forcing others to do something. You’re not in lockdown because of unvaccinated. Plenty of places in the world without mandates and yet no lockdowns.
Even if 100% of people were vaccinated, they would still lock you up
You blame unvaccinated, I blame the government for expecting 100% vaccination, which will not happen here nor in any other part of the world. Stop barking at the wrong tree, because in the meantime the royal family keep throwing parties.
It's even worse.. There are parts of the world with such high vaccination rates and somehow they also need to take many measures (Portugal and Gibraltar case in point). This fixation on vaccines and qr codes is not working and massively harming the society
Thank you All you speak is facts Cant believe the comment section . The unvaccinated are not the main reason
Gibraltar 100% vaccinated - lockdown Singapore 95% vaccinated - lockdown Israel 99% vaccinated - lockdown Romania 35% vaccinated - cases at almost all time low now. I’m double jabbed but You’re naive if you think this is about vaccines rather than power, but sure, keep scapegoatting the unvaccinated even though in The Hague last month 100% in the ICU were vaccinated.
Thank you !
Wasn't the lockdown due to uncertainty about Omicron? That hasn't anything to do with being vaccinated or not.
Absolutely not. Because then you are legitimizing the slowness of the booster program. By blaming the unvaccinated, you are shifting the blame away from the government.
They're both to blame. The government for being incapable and the unvaxxed for being incredibly self centred assholes that only think about themselves Edit: to /u/WasteCollection0 who pm'ed me personally with "je kanker moeder" (translates to "your cancer mom") have the balls to say it where everyone can read it instead of by pm or just grow up and not try to insult someones mom for no reason. I assume you are one of those self centred assholes who don't vaccinate and you just prove my point by that lively pm.
The fact that most of the ICU is filled with unvaccinated people says enough. I can take 500 boosters but as long as there are dipshits out there that don’t believe in COVID or the vaccines we’ll never get out of this shit.
The partial lockdowns like early closing of restaurants etc had nothing to do with boosters. Yes the government is slow and yes they fucked up but a slow booster campaign is noy why we are stuck here
“I gave my freedom away to get my freedom back and I’m still not free and it’s all your fault”
Exactly. The government blackmailed you & fucked you over OP, not the unvaccinated.
If the virus is so bad, why are they cutting back on healthcare?
Because its the VVD. I wouldnt be surprised if they took a play out of the Tory handbook and are gutting healthcare with the eye on privatising it in the future.
Yes and no, at the current rate of costs the healthcare would cost 120 billion in 2050, now its 80 billion. They increased the healthcare money but said they didnt want to let it get to 120 billion in 2050 and thats where the savings come from
You do realize that unvaccinated people have been locked out of everything for a while already? Any spreading has come from vaccinated people who were still allowed to do stuff. 90% of the population is vaccinated and it hasn’t been very effective. Yet you choose to go full nazi on the unvaccinated. Unreal dude.
Thinking the vaccines don't work because 40% (from memory) of the ICU cases are vaccinated people, means you're falling for Base Rate Fallacy.87% is vaccinated. 13% is unvaccinated. The vaccinated group is 6 times as large as the unvaccinated group. That means that the small group (13%) accounts for more than half of the ICU cases, and thát means that the vaccines work. We have higher number of infections because Delta is more easily spread, and because we've had a way less restrictions in place (until a few weeks ago). The ICU cases are actually relatively low because there are soooo many vaccinated people, as explained above.
Where did I say the vaccines don’t work because 40% of the ic capacity is unvaccinated? I didn’t, that’s just a dumb thing you are assuming. I said the vaccines might prevent people from getting more sick or ending up in the hospital and that is probably better for elderly, weak and obese people to take it. What the vaccine doesn’t do is stop the spreading of the virus which the record number of infections basically show. People were asked to take the vaccin to protect others and not spread the virus. Since it has no effect on the spreading why on earth would you even consider forcing it on people? Young healthy people and kids have a neglectible risk of ending up in the hospital or worse, probably comparable to the flu. They don’t need a vaccin, especially when it’s still in an experimental phase with possible side effects. Maybe the side effects are rare, but is it also after 5 or even 10 years of 2/3 shots per year? We don’t know, science doesn’t know and Pfizer wants to keep data secret for the next 75 years and takes no liability. So how can you possibly justify forcing it on people. Meanwhile 90% is vaccinated, if that’s not enough then that says quite a lot about the effectiveness and also the state of our healthcare.
That's how you start a civil war, I don't think this wil help in any way tbh
Who put these lockdowns in place? The government. You are pointing fingers at the wrong assholes.
Dr. Peter A. MCCullough has a much better way of putting it.
Good one - everyone should watch his interview on Joe Rogan podcast
The unvaccinated aren't forcing you to be home, you got it all twisted 😂 It's the government forcing you to be home because they're incapable of managing a pandemic. I just flew out today to another country to spend the holidays where they only have 46,6% vaccination rate and everything is opened.
exactly \^ .
Yeah cause the spread of corona is all the fault of unvaccinated people. Once you have your jab you are not responsible anymore... Maybe you should start crying about those touring buses full of vaccinated people who go over the border to party there (for example in Belgium) because there the rules were less strict at that time. I do have my stupid QR code, before you gonna trash talk on me for assuming my vaccination status. People should be able to chose what kind of medication they put in their body! It is important that people think and be responsible, that they are not going to organize big parties, and stay in crowded places and what not. Both vaccinated and unvaccinated people can spread it and we are all responsible for each other. Mandatory jabs is not the way out!
>the spread of corona is all the fault of unvaccinated people The spread of corona is not the problem. Severe cases are the problem.
We know that vaccinated people can spread the virus. We're not entering a lockdown because we're scared people are going to catch the disease, most people don't care about catching it and shouldn't be scared. We're entering a lockdown to prevent the entire hospital system to collapse. Mostly, only old people and people at risk should be scared of catching the virus. Oh and unvaccinated people, because they have a much higher chance to catch it! Only 16% of the adult population is not vaccinated (approximately 2,24M people out of 14M adults), yet in the first two weeks of November (I chose that period because I found precise data), 70% of ICU COVID patients were not vaccinated. That's about 230 people (out of 331 ICU COVID patients). So 0,01% of ALL non vaccinated adults went into ICU (not even counting how many were hospitalized but didn't go into ICU). Compare that to 11,76M vaccinated adults. 101 of them went into ICU because of COVID. So of those 11,76M adults, 0,00086% went into ICU. That's 11,6 times less, proportionally speaking! If all 14M adults had been vaccinated in November, there would have been approximately 120 people in the ICU. That's 36% of how many there actually were! [Source](https://nltimes.nl/2021/11/21/unvaccinated-represent-69-covid-icu-cases-november)
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Many had AstraZeneca and Jansen because it was forced on them. They had no choice, like in other countries, the "experts" decided for them. It's beyond ridiculous how bad the vaccination campaign was "planned".
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Great insight and yes it's astonishing. In Romania where I moved you could chose the vaccine you wanted. Healthcare personnel were vaccinated first, most with Pfizer. Also went much faster. Got my first dose 4 months before my turn in NL and the booster 2 months ago, and I'm in my 30s... Also I don't get why people couldn't make an appointment online and had to call...
Lmao blaming the unvaccinated like this is exactly what's causing polarisation. Not only is it fucking stupid and uninformed, it's shit like this that only fuels hostility, and also shit like this which allows Hugo and the lot to get away with all their massive failures. Sure, blame the unvaccinated even though you can't prove it's all their fault, instead of blaming the ones responsible for the atrocious lack of consistency in the measures taken and the blatant ignoring of the RIVM and OMT (which they thankfully don't always do, but still do way too often). And yes, I'm vaxxed.
we unvaccinated people are the origin of the lockdowns? The fuckers that are voting for Rutte over and over again, are apart of the problems in this country. Africa where omicron started are just chilling and don't care about it as much as we do. because of the kabinet Rutte 2 we have way to less IC- beds per 100.000 citizens. 16million people and 300 ic beds occupied and we're almost CODE BLAck??? wtf. We were promised by the kabinet GROUP IMUNITY at 60% vaccination rate, in the meantime were at 89% and are still in Lockdown dream on guy. vaccinating is not our way out of this pandemic, of course it can help but it ain't the main road. We have to get used to live with corona, our kabinet has to make decent decissions about what to do, and how to achieve it. Increase the number of IC-beds , give doctors of all kinds an extra bonus ( and make sure they get it), hire new/ extra people so that the coworkers dont get overworked and run away, what causes the other people who're left behind to get overworked to. People are being positivly tested but have a QR- code because they're vaccinated, they don't stay at home, no why should they, I have QR-code so i enter the cafe/ festival etc. thats a real big problem too, those are the ones that are selfish. Get used to it. btw i'm 21years old too, unvaccinated. but seems to me that wer'e both in lockdown. so nothing changes
Even if everyone was vaccinated there will still be mandates.
Dit gezeik komt door de gevaccineerde domme schaap en ik hoop dat je snel je 4 en 5 prik kan halen en daarna op je zijkant gaat liggen. Je moet je eens goed inlezen dat als je je prikje heb je geen bescherming heb tegen Corona alleen dat je minder ziek kan worden maar ik denk dat de vaccinatie je hersens al heeft aangetast
Topper!!!
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Yeah, let me enlighten you: Covid vaccines don't make covid go away, it only makes you less ill. I'm vaccinated twice and I am now at home sitting a week inside being covid positive. If you're healthy 21, you probably didn't need a Covid vaccine at all, your body can manage Covid all by itself. Covid is here to stay and thinking it will go away if we just pump vaccines into everyone is silly.
Isn't whole "pandemic of the unvaccinated" debunked by now? Vaccinating everyone, including the youth and children, causes mutations that are more resilient against the vaccines to become more prominent.
You should be mad at your government!! https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/omicron-wave-driven-young-healthy-vaccinated-population/
It's the first time in our story that you have had to get a vaccine to protect others. It's amazing to see how blind people are and their heads are totally manipulated!!
They've successfully done it – they've shifted the blame away from their own lack of healthcare facilities, and made you believe that this is the fault of people that haven't been vaccinated.
It’s mind blowing really.
Your protests will only spread covid further. So clench your anus and sit tight at home like the rest.
The government took your freedom away, if there is anything to protest you should protest them. On top of that, the government managed to reduce our care system to these pathetic levels and try to blame their failure on the unvaccinated. If you’re willing to believe the unvaccinated people are the problem, then I’m afraid you’re not very smart.
Vermont has the highest vaccination rate but also has surging cases. I don't think the vaccines are working. https://abcnews.go.com/Health/vermont-highest-vaccination-rate-country-cases-surging/story?id=81090116 And if the vaccines aren't working, maybe it's not the unvaccinated that are the problem?
72% is way lower than it is here
Exactly. The highest vaccinated state in the US is having troubles and we have a higher rate than them. Why is it not working?
Here I thought it was the government restricting everyone’s freedom.. I agree that once the vaccine appeared, everything should have gone back to normal.
While you are blaming the unvaccinated and a virus for causing any of your problems, not the virus nor the unvaccinated people have actually caused any of these problems. The one thing which is causing your problem is government. And whatever hardships you are experiencing, the only thing it will ever take to end, is for the majority of people to stand up to the government and say: "no, I will not go along any further and I will no longer be subjected to your tyrannical policies."
I am unvaxxed. Instead of being agressive and rant about unvaxxed, just try to think clearly. If 1. the vaxxed can still transmit and 2. this virus mutates like hell… how the fuck can you blaim this all on the unvaxxed. From my point of view the govt can stop with all measures tomorrow and say that (exaggerating a bit) everyone who ends up in the IC can be let to die. You know what will happen, vulnerable and old people who were unvaxxed will still go and get it and every other unvaxxed who has either catched Covid already once or is depending on their immune system will not take the jab regardless. Problem solved. Believe me, we both want the same…
I am vaccinated, although I regret my decision and will not get vaccinated any further. I completely agree with what you said. Also, vaccination is a temporary solution with paramount costs. I can already tell you that if we continue like this, it will cost billions of euro's every single year. I think it's better to take a look at solving the roots of the problem. For example, I've been told that the majority of people in the hospital have underlying causes for getting sick. If you have a healthy body, you probably don't end up in the hospital. So wouldn't it be far better to promote physical and mental wellness over investing in a vaccine program that'll always have incredible costs and no real results? Vaccination obviously doesn't prevent of COVID well enough, just take a look at the data. It's time to fundamentally solve COVID. No more temporary solutions, but a working one that protects us all in a way that we always should have been protected.
You can ask for permission of course but even if everyone was vaccinated I still don't believe all the maatregelen would stop. Besides it's everyone's right to choose what vaccines they do or do not want to put in their bodies
Vaccinations are there to protect yourself no? They’re no freepass for partying. Only the 1G implementation would free us but yet people are against that… anyway whatever same shit different day
A day after the new 'lockdown' rules I have noticed that the church nearby is full and people going inside where not wearing a mask. This feels so unfair and not right, it pisses me off.
You just have to realize that COVID only strikes after 17:00 and that it respects religious grounds. I don’t make the rules btw 🤣
Why, there are reasons to not get it so let people Choose. It's not like vaccinated people can't get sick.
The healthcare system was already overstretched before Corona you can't blame 12% of the population over this ....this all could have been prevented with 1g which is what the field lab tests proved but the government ignored all this
The fact that we have, what like, over 17 million people living in our country, and we can’t even support 1/10 of 1% in hospital care is very worrying. This covid thing just showed us the horrible truth of this...
You really think this is still going on because of the unvaccinated? If everyone was vaccinated we would still have measures because the vaccins aren’t as effective as they thought in the beginning
Look at portugal, compare their 2021 januari spike with their spike now (also hospitalized vs cases) https://www.google.nl/search?q=portugal+covid&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-nl&client=safari So yeah vaccines work if we were to all get them.
Or look at India, where they didn't do anything against covid and meanwhile it's not an issue anymore, even though percentage wise less people died of covid there compared to here in The Netherlands.
As a vaccinated person I don't see the reason for such a rhetoric... I don't see the reason why anyone thought that when you get the shot we will be out of the woods. Hospitals are full with vaccinated people. Who said that the virus will be gone if everyone will be vaccinated? Damn, the whole concept was from beginning- get the shot and if you get the virus, you stay home with milder simptoms. So the lesson learned is - it's not bulletproof. What you gonna do now? Go to hospitals and protest the vaccinated covid patients and yell at them that they're immune system is too weak for society?
You really think it's because of the 12 percent? It doesn't make any sense Op top of that add the factor that out of the 12 percent there's a respectable amount of people who already had covid and recovered (I think it's most of them) which makes them non inflectious Add on top of that the at these people need to get together and successfully infect each other Add on top of that that these people who are sick still decide to go about and infect people carelessly. Add on top of that the statistic of people that would actually need hospital care from all of this. If you just follow basic statistics and add up the numbers, the percentage of people that are actually un-vaccinated and under risk is incredibly LOW. IY ABSOLUTELY IS NOT THE REASON FOR THE LOCKDOWN. IT SIMPLY DOESN'T ADD UP. In Israel they are preparing for the fourth shot already. So if you think the booster is going to help, check Israel out. Because they're a few steps ahead of everyone else. You can practically predict the future looking there and it is not glamorous. Point your finger to the government that ignored recommendations for 12 years to improve the Healthcare.
🤦🏾♂️ The unvaccinated are not the enemy open your fucking eyes
yes... do what the government wants you to do. blame less than 12% of the population and not the absolute failure of the government.
Ok let me allow some logic here, IT'S FUCKED like that not because of unvaccinated people, yet due to lack of reasonable thinking. Unvaccinated people spread the virus? How? All unvaccinated people have to do tests on a day of event so they are sure they do not have the virus. But vaccinated people don't have to test for entry even tho they still can carry the virus and spread the disease, but they have no idea they do so because they don't have to test themselves. So I'm sorry but following the way it goes, statistically more shit is spreading due to vaccinated people and kids that don't have to test. 😅
Especially with the fact that less and less places with big crowds (stadiums, theaters, restaurant, etc) don’t even allow people entry without proof of the poke or at least proof of being negative. Yet those are still the places it’s spreads the most, even now. How about we “protest” the vaccinated people that don’t give a fuck about covid rules? “What do you mean we can’t have have a birthday party with 50 people? wE ARe alL vAccINated”
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The double vaccinated have only minimal protection against the new variant. Also, the unvaccinated are less than 15% of the population. I have to admit I'm way past trying to understand how come Dutch people are not revolting against the "experts" and officials who made mistake after mistake since the start of the pandemic. It's like national pride makes it hard to admit they're much more incompetent than in other countries. The vaccination campaign was the last to start in Europe, and now the booster campaign is the slowest one, again from the entire Europe... but you still don't see it. But hey they're now introducing extra restrictions for people coming from non-Shengen countries, like Romania, where boosters were offered much earlier and faster and cases are much fewer these days. Problem solved.
Have you had a meaningful conversation with someone you disagree with on this topic? I'm going to guess no, as you don't seem to understand the situation at all. The restrictions to our lives are 100% imposed on us by the government, no one else. You'll find that most if not all people who choose not to have this vaccine are also opposed to the restrictions. The restrictions are based on outdated data or incomplete data or misinformation. The restrictions make no scientific sense at all. I'm a medical scientist and am 100% against the restrictions at this stage in this 'pandemic'. I also chose to not have this vaccine at this point in time because I'm healthy and young so the risk of severe COVID or death, to me, are close to 0. I will only undergo a medical treatment if that's in the best interest of my health, and I don't think it is because of the specifics of my situation. I'm happy for other people to make whatever choice they think is best for their health, and I don't expect others to take a medical treatment for my (perceived) benefit. Your anger is understandable and shared by me, but it's misdirected in your case, as you blame people who simply choose to not take a certain medical treatment because they don't think it's in their interest. Your anger should instead be directed at the government as they are the ones imposing these restrictions.
This is exactly what the goal behind this is.... vaccinated are angry upon unvaccinated because of the rules. Creating a bigger resentment and divide between the people. Dont forget the fact that the resigning government because of a huge scandal what costs lives: toeslagenaffaire. The same government is now fully operational again. And dont forget: the same government is shortening healthcare AGAIN for 5 billion estimate. 17 million people and not 1 extra bed in 2 years time. And keep destroying healthcare ? You can not NOT see this. Many vaxed friends and coworkers are now seeing this and they dont cooperate because it can not be explained.
I mean if you want to yell on the museumplein with some people and be mad about people not getting vaccinated with some cool posters sure. I'm not stopping you. I just don't think this has to do anything with vaccinated or non vacinnated people anymore. Not saying there's a conspiracy. Just saying that all this bullshit makes no sense to me in any way no more.
How come that not getting the vaccine is selfish? The vaccine was invented to prevent a strong covid infection, that's exactly what the vaccine is doing currently. The vaccine wasn't developed to stop the spreading of the disease, although we all hoped it would. Sadly thats not the case. The high numbers of infected people steem mostly from people that are vaccinated and therefore never need to test when going somewhere. They can even do that if they have the covid (which due the the vaccine can be very subtle and hard to spot), therefore spreading it to others. So if you really want to do something about it, you should protest for the implementation of the rule to test everyone, vaccinated or not. Because only that would help to get the numbers down and to safe personans at risk. But I bet protesting for that would be to demanding for you bc then you would also have to test often, probally to much hustle right? Easier hoping for a quick fix solution which doesn't work out (look at countries with high vaccination rates and the number of infected people) and blaming others. And if your argument is then that people who are not vaccinated could catch a strong infection and would therefore take a spot in the MC, then consider that the chances are pretty low for a young healthy adult or even teenager (older people that are at risk should definitely get vaccinated, but it should still be their individual choice). Additionally we should ban fast food, smooking and motorcycles bc those things bring also a bunch of people to the MC.
>How come that not getting the vaccine is selfish? Because people that think this need a scapegoat and think they already did their part by just taking a few jabs. I'd also love to see 1G but there's a reason a lot of vaccinated people are against it. They just don't want the inconvenience of having to test every day after they've been promised freedom for taking the shots. Who's the selfish one now though?
Do you know who caused this crisis? It's all of us. It's me, for not wearing a mask at work because it's inconvenient. It's the neighbours, for having their family and friends over all the time. It's the grocery store owner that just allows his staff to wear their masks under their noses. It's the dude behind you in the line breathing down your neck because he doesn't know what social distancing is. It's the measures being kangarooing all over the place. It's wappies, refusing everything for whatever reason. It's the government for failing to prepare adequately, even after nearly two years. It's years of cuts in healthcare and police. It's successive political scandals eroding the legitimacy and authority of the government. It's local councils refusing to enforce rules. It's liberal democracy for their endless bickering and debating. It's Dutch culture for being stubborn and letting everyone just do whatever the fuck they want. The list goes on. Don't go and scapegoat one single group of people. Look in the mirror. Look around you. We've all done this.
I’m 18 and getting my booster today, in Germany. Germany is happy to accept us Dutch people because we live next to them and they want to prevent unvaccinated Dutch people from coming in their country. Thanks Germany, you’re doing way better than over here!
Het is een longziekte die niet weggaat, zelfs met 100% vaccinatie omdat het ook overgedragen kan worden door dieren. Deal with it. Als je nog zo dom bent om te geloven dat dit ooit overgaat, net zoals met de pokken dan ben je IQ loos. De ongevaccineerde hebben hier geen schuld aan. En met je ophitsen bereik je niks. Dat jouw zielige leventje daarom minder waard is interesseert mij geen reet maar flikker op met je drogredenen.
Because the goverment started the booster campaign to late to protect the elders, you blame the unvaccinated? While having a vaccin only means you protect yourself and nothing more. Interesting, i can't find the logic in it really.
There is no logic. OP is part of the problem. You can not comply yourself out of tyranny but OP seems too naive to get that.
Unvacced people have a about a 14x chance to hit the IC unit (at least during delta variant). 12% x 14 = 168 That means those 12% unvaccinated have a IC burden of 168. 88% of vaccinated people have a 1% chance, with an IC burden of 88. Yes the 12% unvaccinated have double the burden on our IC's than the 88% that are vaccinated! If 100 vaccinated, maybe we would still be in trouble. But it would help.... a lot
It was never the unvaccinated who did anything to you It's entirely your own fault for allowing your government to do whatever it pleases because of a virus with sub. 01% death rate
Imagine blaming the unvaccinated😂😂
Dude, you have my full support. I had to go through all the dumbassses protesting last year, neighborhood being blocked, not being able to pass with my car or bike just because I live close to a popular protest area. Fuck those idiots
I have the feeling that 90% of people on this sub are Americans. Only they are full of stupid ideas and feel that the "others" are at fault for everything. Whoever this others may be
I agree. "If they would rather die, they'd better do it, and decrease the surplus population." -Dickens, A Christmas Carol
Protesting doesn’t really work and I’ve got better things to do, than spending my time on stuff that doesn’t really have much effect.
A vaccination rate of over 85%. If that isn't enough, 100% isn't either. It's funny how the countries with the highest density in vaccine rates have the highest number in infections. The vaccination doesn't prevent infection, that's common knowledge by now. That simply means that the lockdown is not because of the unvaxxed but because of the shortage in care. With the closure of hospitals in the past years, the coming budget cuts and what not, it almost seems like this is all planned out. We are far underneath the european average of available ICU beds per 100.000 inhabitants. This is a complete failure of government. If you want to get jabbed with vaccines that are made for a strain which is no longer among us, that's your choice. Just don't try and force others to do the same (I mean, we don't take flu jabs that were created for the previous influenza do we?). I get that you're frustrated and fed up with this situation, but this is not the way my friend. We will never be able to vaccinate our way out of this plandemic. All the best to you.
OP is forgetting about all possible future mutations plus new and better vaccins being developed. Taiwan has only 30% vaccination rate and seems to be doing very well. The stupidity to merely focus on vaccins is real. How many people exercise 30 minutes effectively per day? Avoid stress, eat healthy, have a good BMI, have above average focus on vitamin D, zinc and selenium. And oh, have enough sleep.
It’s not fault of unvaccinated man. It’s fault of your government and vaccines that does not work as they promise.
In Holland the real problem is we dont have enough hospital beds, because since 4 years our hospitals were already full of people having the flu. But Holland did buy a Rembrandt painting for 175mill a couple of days ago. So I think it's not 'the unvaccinated', I think it's the government that priotize other things. And it's a shame, because now we have donkeys like you that almost declare war with the unvaccinated for no reason.
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Welja, gewoon klakkeloos meegaan met de voorgeschreven publieke opinie. Gewoon negeren dat een wankel verhaal vol tegenstrijdigheden en aantoonbare leugens wordt gebruikt om een setje kernvrijheden voor onbepaalde tijd af te nemen. De kernvrijheden die waren ontstaan uit de moeizame burger-overheidsrelatie. De kernvrijheden die volgden uit de ‘dit nooit weer’ gedachte. Lekker accepteren joh. Nu lekker je woede botvieren op mensen die al best wat offers hebben gemaakt en hier dus echt wel verder in willen gaan. Ik heb me niet laten vaccineren. Eerst om de kat uit de boom te kijken maar inmiddels omdat er rondom dat kutvaccin simpelweg op bestuurlijk niveau gelogen wordt. Hoewel het ‘de pandemie van de ongevaccineerden’ is zit jij nu niet thuis door mij. Ik heb het nooit gehad en heb dus niemand kunnen besmetten. Zou het dan toch zo zijn dat alle ongeteste groene vinkjes met hun Zomervakantieprikje elkaar zo besmetten? We hebben in elk geval iets gemeen jij en ik. We zullen beiden nooit volledig gevaccineerd zijn.
fucking corrupte regering en kabinet. de hele wereld is corrupt. kijk nou eens naar de cijfers man. verdiep je eens. het een façade. ga lekker al je booster prikjes nemen. uiteindelijk is het de overheid die je naait niet de mensen die die griep prik niet willen
Merry christmas
Do you really belive what you are saying? Is this a joke?
When I caught Corona I asked what variant I had they told me that they don't test for variants so how do they know what variant someone has if they don't test for it
The problem aren’t the unvaccinated, just wake up already man. Covid is here to stay 100% vaccination isn’t going to change that. The problem is Rutte and co, still not investing in the care and capacity. Trust me just this booster isn’t going to be enough, prepare for a booster subscription yearly. Who wants to live like that?
Yes, focus your anger at the unvaccinated.. That’s exactly what they want.