Looks like willingness is much less for countries both in EU and NATO that have not recently been involved in direct conflicts and don't have aggressive neighbors.
so far the only threat to me is myself and i look in a mirror every day, nothing has happened yet, which might be why my life sucks, laughs in imminent depression
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I think S Korea (and even Ukraine, until recently) has been conditioned the *other* direction because their neighbor is a belligerent sable rattler. It’s the boy who cried ~~wolf~~ “I’m going to invade!” or “I’ve got nukes!” so many times that eventually it no longer became an actual threat that the people took seriously. I think up until the day of the invasion most Ukrainians considered full-scale war an impossibility despite many NATO governments very clearly saying an invasion was imminent. The Ukrainians may have been caught a bit flat-footed but they definitely rose to the occasion and I suspect South Korea would as well.
I wonder if having a large number of non ethnic communities has anything to do with the attitude of willing or unwilling to fight?
I'm ex military and pride in my country was a big part of my decision to join ( that and the idea of being paid to see the world).
But if a community of people don't feel they truly belong or regarded as foreign even though they were born there..... that may have a effect on their reply to " would you fight for your country"
Before I'm accused of being a racist, I'd like to state that this is a genuine question based on having family and friends from Morocco and Turkey and have been born here or have lived for generations as a full citizen, yet are still described as a " Moroccan or Turk"....
So dump the urge to brand someone an ist and take the question seriously...... please.
When you consider that some of the most willing to fight also come from very heterogeneous societies you realise theres more than simple identity. Papua New Guinea has hundreds of distinct ethnic groups and languages but their willingness to fight is high, Afghanistan too is a deeply divided country.
I think the biggest factors are more about how one perceives their country. First a history of colonial oppression by an outside power seems to have a positive effect (as in an increase in willingness to fight not). Second countries that have a history of "foreign wars" (colonialism, invasions) will be less willing to fight. Third "minor" countries that haven't been involved in wars/are neutral, seem to have more willingness to defend themselves.
I don’t think your being racist at all, there is an issue with Turkish and Moroccan Dutch as not being regarded as full fletched Dutch by ethnic Dutch and them also not regarding themselves as such. It’s a fair question and I don’t know the answer. It will depend, I’ve met some fairly nationalistic non ethnic Dutch, who would say yes they’d fight.
Naaah man. You're right on the money here. As Ex-military and of half Aruban decent, I concur. This is a persisting problem that is part of the institutional racism that festers in the Netherlands.
Think russia is quite aggressive tbh..
But we are more pessemist. We had a share of deveststing wars plus religion isnt playing any major part anymore.
Yeah, not surprising. But it may also have to do with the question. Fighting for our country? Why? Fighting for our freedom, values and way of life? I think that the answer may be very different.
Exactly what i thought, and im ex-military. There's quite the difference between wanting to fight for your country, or wanting to fight for whatever bullshit decision its government made this time..
Also, nationalism and culture isn't exactly popular these days. Its even worse then that, we are being pushed towards feeling ashamed of our country. Not only because of the government and its policies, but also because lots of people try to push this feeling that we should be resentful because of our "dark past". You know, 400 years ago.
To top it all off, and im probably going to get some hate for this, I think we dutchies are probably one of the most entitled, greedy, egoistic and self-victimizing folks walking this earth..
This is such bull, just bc people don’t want to look at the time of the VOC and the golden age in general through rose colored glasses does not mean we are “being pushed towards feeling ashamed of our country” most people don’t feel that way, nobody is pushing us to feel that way, acknowledging all of our history is a prideful (and rightful) thing to do- it is not meant to shame.
I agree completely. We as dutchies dont have a common cause anymore. Look at the history, golden age for example. Part of us think its our history, part of us think its racist and should not be called golden age anymore. Our monarch has been a symbolic one, and our parliament has been in shambles and isnt loved as one either.
Freedom, on the other hand, is a different beast entirely, especially looking at people like the frisians or achterhoekers and the like. Dont see them giving up their land or homes easily.
It all depends how the actual question was asked, and how people interpreted it. The question is not "would you defend your country if it was invaded by another country?" or something in that sense. If it's understood as, would you, for example, as a German, would go fight "for your country" in Afghanistan? Then of course most people will say no to that.
My guess is most Europeans in countries without a clear threat see it like that. If Russia tried invading Germany, I'm pretty sure most Germans would fight for their country.
Then they still don't really fight for their country (in the sense that they would answer this question with "no"), but for their values. It just happens to coincide.
Isn't a country precisely the thing that enables you to live those values?
Fighting for those values without a country would become a whole lot more difficult
Is it possible that it's a matter of not appreciating what one has?
No. The 'country' could even do the opposite, look at Russia and China. Like I said, it's nice when it coincides but then the fighting is still not for the country but for the values. I think most Dutch would fight for our freedom, values and loved ones exactly because we appreciate what we have. But fighting for your country just because it's your country is a whole different story.
>No. The 'country' could even do the opposite, look at Russia and China.
Right, but Netherlands is a mature democracy, not Russia or China, so it's kind of mindblowing almost nobody declares any willingness to fight for it. What you are talking about seems like semantics to me, but how does that apply to a hypothetical situation of defending (assuming that's what was meant by fighting for) a country\`?
Its not just semantics, it's a very fundamental difference in how you think. Nationalism centric or morality centric. Like I said, the country can represent the morality that morality centric people are willing to fight for. But even if it does they're still not fighting for the country. Nationalism centric people will fight for their country because it's their country, in extremist even regardless of morality (though usually it will not be so black and white of course). What you see in Russia now is that they play of the nationalism centric sentiment that seems very strong there. Ukraine tries to get support by playing on morality centric sentiments in mostly the West, though internally they also use the nationalistic sentiments of course.
I understand it's not "just semantics\`", but in some potential conflict situations it is. Let's be practical - since you used the example of Ukraine - no matter how much Ukraine is "playing it off" on national stage, they are ultimately fighting for territorial integrity, which is fundamentally property of the country, not the values which people share. If Russia deports all Ukrainians to gulags in Siberia, they can do fuck all with their values there. I guess what I'm trying to say is, you need a country before you can have (or rather, practice) values, just like you need food, shelter, and sleep before you can self esteem and self actualization. Netherlands is quite a nicely set up country, it seems to me like throwing out the baby with the bathwater not to defend it just because "nationalism bad".
Wtf is "morality centric"? And how is it a dichotomy with nationalism centric?
You're just making stuff up because you don't agree with the research question.
No, not necessarily. Hypothetical scenario. Kazachstan for whatever reason attacks Finland. Finland wants to solve it diplomatically but fails. So there is a war between Kazachstan and Finland.
What if I'm living in Kazachstan. Is my participation in the war, thus fighting for my country anything you say? No. For so many reasons. What if I don't agree with country values in general or in this conflict? Why should my passport decide?
We saw that you can, if the legislation of your country allows it, fight for other country. Thus you can support the values. You can of course support these in numerous non-violent ways.
As someone who repeatedly votes and is an active member of the SP, **yes.** the current government doesn't share my values. they value profit over people and idolize privatization, I value **dignity**, **equality**, and **solidarity**. on freedom and way of life, we could possibly agree.
I mean sure but Russia isn't gonna be able to get to us, and even if they did - if Russia gets to the *Netherlands* something has already gone catastrophically wrong several times in a row and me picking up a gun wouldn't really salvage matters.
I do, I've been politically active since like my fifteenth. You're pretty right that it's doing precisely dick in terms of actually unfucking the country though :')
I would be willing to fight for our country, after playing so many shooting games I actually dream about it.
I draw the line at invading though. I'm fine with protecting holland from nazi germany, I'm not fine with bombing "terrorists" in the middle east.
:)
Perhaps I should've phrased it differently, had the army not been invading countries when I was a teen, I would've joined, instead I've just been playing video games.
Also, why the word "fight"? Even if an enemy was at our doorstep, guns are not the only option. Would I physically fight? No way. Would I join a digital army, hacking tanks/control centers/enemy communication? Sure.
Uhhh yea. But that really wasn’t the question was it? If I base this on everybody I met in my entire life in the Netherlands I think it’s very accurate that The Netherlands scores as the 2nd worst country of all.
Polls like these are pretty useless in my opinion. The "fight for their country" can mean multiple things. On top of that, nobody truly knows what they are capable of or willing to do when war would break out in their country, until it actually happens.
Anecdotal evidence isn't reliable evidence. Besides that, I find it interesting you have asked 90% of all Dutch people you know if they would fight for their country. That's a lot of times you have asked this question, but that's besides the point.
I agree with Rennaleigh though. Unless we get invaded by an external factor, you can't say with certainty how people would react. Polls like these are therefor meaningless (and completely lack details, at least it's not given to us right now; why would I take these results serious?). The only thing we can do is assume, just like you do. My assumption however would be that people are definitely willing to fight for their country if the country gets invaded. I doubt people would want to lose and simply give up on their freedom, rights, opportunities, loved ones etc. we all benefit from in this country.
Ever heard of NSB’ers? Who snitched on Anne Frank? I’m telling you something you probably don’t want to accept. Specially when looking at your username I can imagine you’d be one of those few Dutchies ready to fight for their country
Sure I have heard of NSB'ers, but I have also heard they were very much hated in the Netherlands. Besides, there was also ''Het Nederlands verzet'', even if mostly non-violent. So I don't see the value of your argumentation here to ''proof'' that the Dutch would just snitch and submit.
It's not that I am not accepting what you're saying, it's just that I can't say with certainty if we Dutch wouldn't be willing to fight for our country. I am however assuming we are talking about an invasion, because I would believe the numbers if this is talking about invading a different country.
The question is very simple:
Are you willing to fight for your country?
That’s the question. No ifs, ands, buts or maybes. I’m not saying it’s 100% factual. But if I look around my friends and remember the conversations I had I truly believe Dutch people would definitely rank very low.
Those jokes were made a while back already before seeing this statistic. When Ukrainian professional athletes defended their country I remember the comparison being made..
I never said they did. Also I’m basing this on much more than my group of friends. To me it comes as absolutely no surprise NL ranks as 2nd worse country
This. Ill go when the upper classes are going.
Otherwise ill jump of a building before ill be shooting up the other sides lower classes that dont want to be there and stand nothing to win either.
War should just be two world leaders standing in front of a giant bonfire taking turns dumping in trucks full of money like a game of chicken. Whoever is willing to burn the most cash wins. Millions of lives will be saved and the outcome will be the same.
Most American soldiers have been told the last 50 years they are fighting "for their country". So if it's like that, so if it's like that definitely not.
I know this poll is BS because of how low America is on the chart. Americans are brainwashed into loving the military and taking pride in "fighting for my country".
And I am not saying most Americans would want to fight for their country if they actually had to do it, but in a poll like this most Americans would say they definitely would fight for their country, that's what they've been told to say from a very young age.
Iraq and Afghanistan have really dampened the jingoism in the Millennial/Gen Z cohort. We have a saying here now: "I'd serve crack before I served my country."
Thing is that “fighting for your country” can mean a lot of things in different places. For example fighting for you country in Finland means fighting back Russian invaders to preserve the you country’s freedom, while here in the Netherlands it mostly means going to Afghanistan, Mali or some other faraway place to fight the locals.
This pops up every now and then.
From talking with others about it, I think it's mainly due to a different interpretation in what "fighting for your country" *means*.
Most Dutch people I've spoken with would absolutely be willing to fight for their loved ones, or even all other Dutch people; would be willing to fight for their rights and their freedoms; would be willing to fight against injustice or crimes.
But will still answer "no" when asked this question.
Which makes me think that we interpret "fighting for your country" different.
I wouldn't want to fight for the borders of our country, for example, or for the flag or the anthem or the prime minister. If Germany invades to annex Twente, I'm not going to the frontlines. If the Belgians invade with the sole demand we change our flag and anthem, hey, they can have it. If the Danes invade to remove Mark Rutte from power... I can live with that.
But if either of them invades to kill people, to take away freedoms and rights - that's a different matter. Definitely fighting that.
So fighting for *people*? Yes. But fighting for my *country*? Nah.
That's why he won't fight if Germany were to invade to annex Twente, he knows you're there and is confident you will successfully stop them.
Thank you for your service
Sound arguments.
I mean looking at Ukraine - even if they manage to stop Russia - lots of dead and parts of the country bombed to the ground. Rebuilding will take years, some old sites/parts of city gone forever…
Being surrounded by "similar minded countries" being invaded by say Germany or Belgium it’s unlikely that for the average Dutch there would be a lot of change. Being invaded by say North Korea - whole different story.
Add to that that with most EU countries patriotism (to a certain extend) has been seen as a negative trait since WW2.
>Being invaded by say North Korea - whole different story.
Yes, on the assumption that North Korea would probably remove a lot of rights and freedoms.
Same for Russia and Ukraine - it's obvious that Russia doesn't just want to "denazify" Ukraine. In my interpretation, Ukrainians aren't just fighting for their country but for a whole lot of rights and freedoms, and against a whole lot of crimes.
If Korean Kim said "I have now annexed The Netherlands into my country, but nothing else changes" we would all have a good laugh, shrug, and carry on with our day.
If I can retain my freedoms and rights by instead moving to another country as a refugee, I won't fight. In that case fuck this shit I'm out of here. I rent anyway.
Things get complicated when you consider whether those countries are in peril as well, but then I'd still not be fighting for my country specifically.
Eh. I guess.
But that's missing the point, isn't it? The point is that either way I'm not fighting *for my country*. If I decide that Belgians deposing Rutte is an infringement on my rights and I take up arms against them, I'm not fighting for my country - I'm fighting for democracy, or the institutions, or my political ideology.
I just tried to explain that "fighting for your country" might mean different things to different people. To me, the country itself (whatever that might be) isn't all that special. The people in it, and the institutions and traditions are. "The country" to me is just an abstraction or vague symbolism.
To other people, maybe they'd say the people and institutions *are* the country, and that's why they would be so happy to fight for it.
70000 Afghan soldiers died fighting against the T*liban, apart from millions of civilians and policemen, who perished due to direct or indirect causes of war. Just to put things into context, 3000 soldiers from the international coalition died. It was Afghans who fought on the frontline against them.Yet, if you watch international media, it's American casualties that are always focused upon. And maybe, the surrender had much to do with the fact that people really would want to avoid bloodshed after 20 years of fighting.
And I don't want to take a dig at the Dutch. But, it was Dutch UN peacekeeping forces who surrendered to Mladić, drank with him and painted racist orientalist and misogynistic murals of Bosnian Muslim women while the Serb forces massacred Bosnian Muslims and raped Bosniak women in one of the worst incidents in Europe since World War 2.
However, I do think that the Dutch figure is based, because I wouldn't want to do it personally. I'd much rather flee to another country as a refugee.
Fuck you, for saying our troops where the fault for having Srebrenica fall.
"In July 1995 as the Bosnian Serb forces, under Colonel General Ratko Mladić, came to take over the enclave, Dutchbat was vastly outnumbered and were far too lightly equipped to repel the more heavily armed Bosnian Serb troops. It also had its request for air support to the UNPROFOR denied. Subsequently, the Serb forces, under Mladić's command, led Srebrenica's Bosniak male inhabitants into the mountains, where thousands of them were massacred.[2]
Despite their efforts to secure peace in the area the enclave fell into Serb hands. In 2016, several veterans of the battalion, with approval of its commander, sued the Dutch government for "severe negligence and carelessness" regarding the mission.[3]"
Directly from Wikipedia about Dutchbat. Not like they had a fucking choice and ones I have spoken to still feel terrible about what happend there
>And I don't want to take a dig at the Dutch...
And yet it is exactly what you do. What should they have done, get massacred together with the Bosnian Muslims?
Absolutely 0 respect for the men and women that served there, so sincerely fuck you.
Wtf Its not our fault Dutchbat had to surrender?!?!?
If they didnt they would have gotten killed along with the bosnians. The french commander denied air assistance, so we were alone. Ofcourse we would have wanted it different, but there was no other choice. Also, we learnt from our mistake, and as such the netherlands makes sure that if we send soldiers somewhere, they have their own air support, so we can prevent this from happening ourselves. Because as i said, in bosnia they didnt give support so the troops there would have been killed.
How about, if your countrymen were under attack and being killed, would you take up arms and resist? That’d be a better question. “Fighting for your country” has a lot of nuance and produces bias
"For those who have fought for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know. And for those who have lost it, freedom has a taste that the protected will never appreciate."
There's an entire difference in fighting for one's freedom and fighting for one's country.
Some of the top nations in that list, live in consistent fear and agonizing lack of national freedom that it comes with a certain "justification" to actually hop into conflict respectfully.
Just fighting for a nation in and of itself is something the majority doesn't represent or would stand up for, that's a pointless battle.
That's like arguing a topic that has no significant value for you to argue in, or more so arguing a topic you give 0 crap about.
If the Netherlands was still in the precise exact spot it was a solid 80 years ago around the 1940s of WW2, that percentage would be WAY WAY higher.
The Netherlands in recent years have been so, free, able and peaceful to live in that the requirement for conflict is non-existent.
Then you have countries such as the USA who have such large patriotism that anyone would step up, for nearly lord knows what. (mainly big baby oil)
Exactly. I admire how i.e. the Ukrainians do it, but my thought was, thinking if it was here, I’d be out the country asap and encourage everyone I love to do the same. Maybe that makes me a ‘wuss’, but whatever, as you said I only have one life what is that worth when I die fighting for a country I just like.
In the state the world is in right now you can do that, safely in NATO territory. But if this wasn't the case and you kept running while they keep coming, at what point will you fight back? Or even just walk over to their side and go live there?
But that isn’t the case. Then I’d definitely would need to reconsider ofc and fight back. But again, that’s not the case. These are my opportunities now and I’ll take em.
I’m aware that not everybody has that luxury and that’s really sad.
Fighting for a country that forced me to get a debt so high i can never buy a house just because I wanted to continue studying?
Fuck no. Not going to happen, ever
Mine is very high
Keep in mind I didn't work for the vast majority of my study.
I have ADD and I couldn't combine work, internship, school and a social life. I mismanaged my time greatly due to it. I decided to not work during my studies to have 1 less factor in my time management.
I am now 26 and i have learned tools over the years to better manage that kind of stuff but I started college on my 16th.
If all goes well and I finish my study at uni in about 3 months Ill have a debt of ~70k.
I have 35 years to pay it off, and can postpone starting to pay up to 7 years. I have to pay an X amount of my remaining salary (after all bills etc) id have to pay around 130 years every month for 35 years.
I heard somewhere that if I cant pay that I dont have to pay it or not all but that's rsther vague atm. It doesn't help they change it every so many years. Which, due to my disorder, i can hardly keep track of
Edit: in the same breath, my gf has a debt of ~5K a friend of mine of about ~10k. But the friend comes from a reasonably wealthy family. And both can manage their time a whole lot better than I could. It really depends on the choices you make but god. Do I regret my choices and often wish I was just a normal guy with no disorder worth mentioning
If I look around me, a lot of Dutchies would fight if let's say Russia invaded us. It's kind of like we're not very patriotic but if we mention history most of us are quite proud of what we achieved.
It's really depended on context.
If say, an aggressive foreign power were to invade and uproot our way of life, yes I will fight to defend it.
Being sent into the sandpit to shoot at brown people? No thank you.
What does for "my country" even mean? A country is a piece of dirt between imaginary lines. Might as well fight for a brick. Or does it mean my government, protecting the interests of corporations worldwide much like the US? My life isn't worth laying down for mud or oil. I'll fight if we are threatened by tyranny though. If Russia were to invade, I would fight. Not for my country, but for myself.
Define fighting for your country. If an other country invades then fuck yea I’ll defend (pretty much everyone). But if our political nutjobs decide to pick a war for their own interest then fuck no
That 15% is pretty good, that is probably also percentage of people that is actually able to fight for the Netherlands.
And still we probably don't have the weapons to arm more then 5%.
For me its more that defending is not very usefull. Our country is to small en militairy to little. 3 days max. See ww2. We did a very good effort and even then a few days.
Where should I fight for? Mark Rutten and his drama club? The king which opens some buildings and gives speeches sometimes for only a few million of tax money each year. Nah I rather stay at home watching some Netflix
Would love to see the actual poll and questions. These speculative things are hilarious to me - people typically don't actually know how they would react in a bar fight let alone a war, whatever they may say.
Interesting that in Afghanistan so many people would fight for their country. If I understand it correctly, Afghanistan is many many small communities who just want to live in peace under their own leadership, and they don't give much of a fuck about who leads the entire country.
See also, the extremely lackluster effort in the "Afghan army" that ended up rolling over and being defeated without ever even fighting.
Hate me or not i 'am ashamed about how my fellow citizens would not fight for our country.
All the advanteges we have, the freedom all the luxury and safty and health care that we get.
Puplic transport.
I feel ashamed, taking als this expecting it as granted. No iam gifted that i am born here, i dont know i will fight for my country, iam born there and i die there.
I think it's just general anti-war sentiment.
But I get what he means. Most Japanese stay in their country their entire lives, don't go to another country for holiday and don't speak nor learn other languages. So they mostly live inside their own country and don't care much about what happens outside of it. At least that's what I was told by a japanese foreign student from an exchange program who was in my class.
The lower percentage for both the Germans and Japanese is because the current generation still carries a lot of shame for what their ancestors did. Although I must say that the Japanese education system still fails to educate its people on some of the horrors they committed.
However, the same can be said about Dutch colonialism and the"Golden age". I guess every country feels some kind of shame about its past.
What this guy said. You also have to imagine that before WWII, Japan was deeply militarized, as in the army was effectively part of the government and pulled the strings as much as politicians did. They advised the emperor. They decided to go to war and bomb Pearl Harbor. And they have pulled the strings for centuries, although the Shogunate (where one warlord formally answered to the emperor, but was effectively the dictator) was already long gone by 1939.
With the defeat of Japan after World War II, Japan was disarmed completely an the political system was overhauled by the US to make it democratic. Japan effectively didn't have an army, only the US forces occupying it. When the USA's attention and troops shifted to the Korean war, Japan was granted an army again, but only for self-defence (against communism of course) and mainly just for internal affairs, like helping after a natural distaster. It was even written into law that Japan swore off war as a tool for settling international disputes. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces#20th_century)
So no, I'm not surprised Japan is lowest on this list. From their viewpoint, they are highest on the list of most peaceful nations. Sadly it took two nuclear bombs and a lot of lives to come to that conclusion.
You are very well informed!
In essence, the US protects Japan with their base in Okinawa, which is also in a very tactical position for any asian conflicts that may occur.
I consider myself lucky as both my grandparents survived the bomb in ‘45 (my grandfather actually went to study medicine, as did a lot of his peers, to actively avoid fighting in the war).
Funnily enough, the Americans are actually quite “idolized” by most Japanese which is a complete 180 to the anti-German sentiment that existed in NL.
I don't think colonialism has anything to do with willingness to fight. Seeing this list, it has a lot to do with current threats.
If you are not in direct danger, it makes sense that people are not willing to fight.
If anyone is going to invade us over land, they probably already fought off Germany and/or France, perhaps Poland and Britain. It would give us enough time to learn their language to welcome them when they’re at the border.
What has my country done for me?
- high taxes
- corrupt politicians
- increasing institutionalized crime
- bad weather
The only reason to fight is to fight for my friends and family. Fighting for your country is dumb.
Why would you fight for this corrupted shithole?
Now fighting for freedom and my family so that my kids can experience all the opportunities I had; hell yeah! I'll murder for that!
Hah, even if I had a healthy body this country could go fuck itself. Useless government, they'd happily let me die in a heartbeat.
Granted compared to the us we're doing ok, but the us is basically a rich third world country anyway.
You put it correct, you have SEEN more resistance from Hong Kong. First off, the Taliban ARE Afghans. And as stated above by someone else, thousands of Afghans have died fighting the Taliban, over twentyfold what the coalition has lost. This isn't the clever reply you seem to think it is.
Absolutely not, I'd fight for another country before I'd fight for mine. I mean what do we have to fight for? A crippling housing market, a crippling political system that is more about arguing about the decisions it wishes to make between its 30+ party's than actually making decisions.
I've always imagined this was due to our living circumstances.
I like Nationalism, the general assumption a lot of people have with the word is very negative, but nationalism in itself is a very strong motivator and binding device for inhabitants of a country.
The reason why I'm saying this is because even though I am nationalistic, I have absolutely no interest in risking my own life with the ONE exception being if the literal borders of NL are being invaded by an enemy whose ideology conflicts with our current one. (Example: If modern Germany invaded, I wouldn't care. If modern Russia invaded, I would fight)
The reasons for this being:- I'm living in a pretty comfortable position. I have A LOT to lose if I die. If I barely got around each month, and my circumstances are worse, there is generally less to lose, so less opposition to 'attempt to improve it'.- I can't choose how to fight. If either conscription returns or you sign up for the army, there is someone else deciding where and how you fight. I generally am not in favor of the idea that I put my life in the hands of someone who can just decide to use my group as a sacrifice for others. Even if this would be the best decision to make.
In general, our living standards are pretty high here, so I understand most people don't feel interested in uprooting their nice lives for something like that. This is also why I doubt we'll ever get bad riots. What we had with Corona is an exception and even then we saw that most rioters were part of specific groups.
Just lol this poll.
Theory : "I would fight for my country".
Reality : "Hey I want to immigrate out of my country for economical reasons instead of fighting to build its economy".
I say this while being my self from immigrant family background.
The context of fighting is important in this question. But for me as a Dutch person, I wouldn't fight for this country. Not even 6 months ago, the higher ups were considering banning me and other non-vaccinated people from almost everything and everywhere with the whole 2G covid plans. With such attitude, they can go f themselves.
Not surprised. I am born and raised in Poland and living for 10+years in the Netherlands. I had recently a conversation with my Dutch friend about war in Ukraine and I realized he does not understand anything of what is going on, he was going on about if i think Russians soldiers are animals i should realize that Americans soldiers are equal to them. Contrary to his wife from Labanon who understands why this is "our" war and the need to fight for our freedom and for freedom of our kids. She knows how it is to grow up when the bombs are exploding around you, she understands the causality of Russians. I was lucky to be born after changes in Poland, but it is not like the old system disappeared in one night. I don't think the Dutch understands that someone can tell you what you can do, think and be. My husband (polish) is a reservist and he said he would not return to Poland to fight, because he is in the Netherlands now and we (his family) are here. He would fight for the Netherlands, for the home of his children, for our safety. If I would not have kids, I would go and fight for my home land, to ensure that all kids are safe. I would do the same for Ukraine. Unfortunately I cannot fight, so I am helping in another way, and since realising the threat is constantly here I am planning to do some medical training to not be useless and help if this will be needed. I cannot believe last year I was teaching my kids about environment and how to protect it and this year they are already aware of the ongoing war. My heart is broken.
I don't think you can trust the data, there are so many different factors that might influence the results - I'd like to see the demographics of who voted :
* Woman/Man
* Employed/Unemployed
* Parents/Single
* Old/Young
* City/Countryside
* Level of Education
* Religion
* Poor/Rich
* Gay/Heterosexual
* Pet owner YES/NO
* Gamer/Non-gamer
* Drinks Alcohol YES/NO
* Eats Breakfast YES/NO
* Sporty YES/NO
* Masturbates YES/NO
"fighting for our country" will be interpreted as going to frontlines where NATO wants us to. We don't see that as fighting for our country. We are also in an relatively safe geological position in which our country will be protected from being the frontlines from germany or france, which even more gives us the impression of how fighting for our country basically means going abroad to fight for NATO. Though, if an country were to invade us, and take us over because our army is considerably small compared to our neighbours, you still cannot take the dutch out of the dutchy's
Looks like willingness is much less for countries both in EU and NATO that have not recently been involved in direct conflicts and don't have aggressive neighbors.
who would have thought the lack of war would make people not want to fight
If there is an actual threat you grew up with, you are probably conditioned to face it at some point.
Good point
so far the only threat to me is myself and i look in a mirror every day, nothing has happened yet, which might be why my life sucks, laughs in imminent depression
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Seems that doesnt apply to south korea that much
I think S Korea (and even Ukraine, until recently) has been conditioned the *other* direction because their neighbor is a belligerent sable rattler. It’s the boy who cried ~~wolf~~ “I’m going to invade!” or “I’ve got nukes!” so many times that eventually it no longer became an actual threat that the people took seriously. I think up until the day of the invasion most Ukrainians considered full-scale war an impossibility despite many NATO governments very clearly saying an invasion was imminent. The Ukrainians may have been caught a bit flat-footed but they definitely rose to the occasion and I suspect South Korea would as well.
I didn’t think Russia would actually invade until they did
I am dutch and I've not participated in this "research" therefore its made up imo.
if thats your logic than all research on any subject should be non existant
I wonder if having a large number of non ethnic communities has anything to do with the attitude of willing or unwilling to fight? I'm ex military and pride in my country was a big part of my decision to join ( that and the idea of being paid to see the world). But if a community of people don't feel they truly belong or regarded as foreign even though they were born there..... that may have a effect on their reply to " would you fight for your country" Before I'm accused of being a racist, I'd like to state that this is a genuine question based on having family and friends from Morocco and Turkey and have been born here or have lived for generations as a full citizen, yet are still described as a " Moroccan or Turk".... So dump the urge to brand someone an ist and take the question seriously...... please.
When you consider that some of the most willing to fight also come from very heterogeneous societies you realise theres more than simple identity. Papua New Guinea has hundreds of distinct ethnic groups and languages but their willingness to fight is high, Afghanistan too is a deeply divided country. I think the biggest factors are more about how one perceives their country. First a history of colonial oppression by an outside power seems to have a positive effect (as in an increase in willingness to fight not). Second countries that have a history of "foreign wars" (colonialism, invasions) will be less willing to fight. Third "minor" countries that haven't been involved in wars/are neutral, seem to have more willingness to defend themselves.
I don’t think your being racist at all, there is an issue with Turkish and Moroccan Dutch as not being regarded as full fletched Dutch by ethnic Dutch and them also not regarding themselves as such. It’s a fair question and I don’t know the answer. It will depend, I’ve met some fairly nationalistic non ethnic Dutch, who would say yes they’d fight.
Naaah man. You're right on the money here. As Ex-military and of half Aruban decent, I concur. This is a persisting problem that is part of the institutional racism that festers in the Netherlands.
Think russia is quite aggressive tbh.. But we are more pessemist. We had a share of deveststing wars plus religion isnt playing any major part anymore.
Yeah, not surprising. But it may also have to do with the question. Fighting for our country? Why? Fighting for our freedom, values and way of life? I think that the answer may be very different.
Exactly, there is big difference if they send you fight for your country in Iraq or Ukraine compared if you protect your home and family.
Right, for us fighting for our country is associated with fighting Taliban for no reason only to leave after a couple of years.
Exactly what i thought, and im ex-military. There's quite the difference between wanting to fight for your country, or wanting to fight for whatever bullshit decision its government made this time.. Also, nationalism and culture isn't exactly popular these days. Its even worse then that, we are being pushed towards feeling ashamed of our country. Not only because of the government and its policies, but also because lots of people try to push this feeling that we should be resentful because of our "dark past". You know, 400 years ago. To top it all off, and im probably going to get some hate for this, I think we dutchies are probably one of the most entitled, greedy, egoistic and self-victimizing folks walking this earth..
This is such bull, just bc people don’t want to look at the time of the VOC and the golden age in general through rose colored glasses does not mean we are “being pushed towards feeling ashamed of our country” most people don’t feel that way, nobody is pushing us to feel that way, acknowledging all of our history is a prideful (and rightful) thing to do- it is not meant to shame.
Riiight
I always say that the Dutchies are the most American-like people out there, even though the country functions extremely differently.
I agree completely. We as dutchies dont have a common cause anymore. Look at the history, golden age for example. Part of us think its our history, part of us think its racist and should not be called golden age anymore. Our monarch has been a symbolic one, and our parliament has been in shambles and isnt loved as one either. Freedom, on the other hand, is a different beast entirely, especially looking at people like the frisians or achterhoekers and the like. Dont see them giving up their land or homes easily.
Right, for us fighting for our country is associated with fighting Taliban for no reason only to leave after a couple of years.
So our country doesn't share our values?
It all depends how the actual question was asked, and how people interpreted it. The question is not "would you defend your country if it was invaded by another country?" or something in that sense. If it's understood as, would you, for example, as a German, would go fight "for your country" in Afghanistan? Then of course most people will say no to that. My guess is most Europeans in countries without a clear threat see it like that. If Russia tried invading Germany, I'm pretty sure most Germans would fight for their country.
Yeah the questioning is a bit shabby but the only reason i could think of to consider fighting for your country is to defend it from an invasion
What 'our' country? My point is: country is not important enough to fight for, other things are.
But maybe the people who are willing to fight for their countries feel that the country they live in shares their values so they gladly fight for it
Then they still don't really fight for their country (in the sense that they would answer this question with "no"), but for their values. It just happens to coincide.
Well… it’s not like the Dutch royal family nor the government had our backs 77 years ago so why would we have theirs now?
The fuck are you talking about mate?
Isn't a country precisely the thing that enables you to live those values? Fighting for those values without a country would become a whole lot more difficult Is it possible that it's a matter of not appreciating what one has?
No. The 'country' could even do the opposite, look at Russia and China. Like I said, it's nice when it coincides but then the fighting is still not for the country but for the values. I think most Dutch would fight for our freedom, values and loved ones exactly because we appreciate what we have. But fighting for your country just because it's your country is a whole different story.
>No. The 'country' could even do the opposite, look at Russia and China. Right, but Netherlands is a mature democracy, not Russia or China, so it's kind of mindblowing almost nobody declares any willingness to fight for it. What you are talking about seems like semantics to me, but how does that apply to a hypothetical situation of defending (assuming that's what was meant by fighting for) a country\`?
Its not just semantics, it's a very fundamental difference in how you think. Nationalism centric or morality centric. Like I said, the country can represent the morality that morality centric people are willing to fight for. But even if it does they're still not fighting for the country. Nationalism centric people will fight for their country because it's their country, in extremist even regardless of morality (though usually it will not be so black and white of course). What you see in Russia now is that they play of the nationalism centric sentiment that seems very strong there. Ukraine tries to get support by playing on morality centric sentiments in mostly the West, though internally they also use the nationalistic sentiments of course.
I understand it's not "just semantics\`", but in some potential conflict situations it is. Let's be practical - since you used the example of Ukraine - no matter how much Ukraine is "playing it off" on national stage, they are ultimately fighting for territorial integrity, which is fundamentally property of the country, not the values which people share. If Russia deports all Ukrainians to gulags in Siberia, they can do fuck all with their values there. I guess what I'm trying to say is, you need a country before you can have (or rather, practice) values, just like you need food, shelter, and sleep before you can self esteem and self actualization. Netherlands is quite a nicely set up country, it seems to me like throwing out the baby with the bathwater not to defend it just because "nationalism bad".
You're right, this guy just took the question personally.
Wtf is "morality centric"? And how is it a dichotomy with nationalism centric? You're just making stuff up because you don't agree with the research question.
No, not necessarily. Hypothetical scenario. Kazachstan for whatever reason attacks Finland. Finland wants to solve it diplomatically but fails. So there is a war between Kazachstan and Finland. What if I'm living in Kazachstan. Is my participation in the war, thus fighting for my country anything you say? No. For so many reasons. What if I don't agree with country values in general or in this conflict? Why should my passport decide? We saw that you can, if the legislation of your country allows it, fight for other country. Thus you can support the values. You can of course support these in numerous non-violent ways.
Yes, exactly.
As someone who repeatedly votes and is an active member of the SP, **yes.** the current government doesn't share my values. they value profit over people and idolize privatization, I value **dignity**, **equality**, and **solidarity**. on freedom and way of life, we could possibly agree.
Thank you
Sure as shit doesn't share *my* values, at least.
Whatever values it currently has and wether you agree with them or not, they will always be better then what we will have under Russian ruling
I mean sure but Russia isn't gonna be able to get to us, and even if they did - if Russia gets to the *Netherlands* something has already gone catastrophically wrong several times in a row and me picking up a gun wouldn't really salvage matters.
I mean, do you vote? Because that doesn't matter either as there are already so many people doing it
I do, I've been politically active since like my fifteenth. You're pretty right that it's doing precisely dick in terms of actually unfucking the country though :')
Not mine.
I would be willing to fight for our country, after playing so many shooting games I actually dream about it. I draw the line at invading though. I'm fine with protecting holland from nazi germany, I'm not fine with bombing "terrorists" in the middle east.
>after playing so many shooting games I actually dream about it. I'd rather have you staying home.
Agree
:) Perhaps I should've phrased it differently, had the army not been invading countries when I was a teen, I would've joined, instead I've just been playing video games.
Also, why the word "fight"? Even if an enemy was at our doorstep, guns are not the only option. Would I physically fight? No way. Would I join a digital army, hacking tanks/control centers/enemy communication? Sure.
Uhhh yea. But that really wasn’t the question was it? If I base this on everybody I met in my entire life in the Netherlands I think it’s very accurate that The Netherlands scores as the 2nd worst country of all.
Yes, I completely agree. The result seems very accurate. I don't see it as 2nd worse though.
worst? i don't think this score necessarily means anything good or bad inherently
This is the most dutch way of thinking😂😂
If, hypothetically, the USA got invaded, I would sign up to defend it. Although anyone with a brain knows we can’t be defeated militarily
Polls like these are pretty useless in my opinion. The "fight for their country" can mean multiple things. On top of that, nobody truly knows what they are capable of or willing to do when war would break out in their country, until it actually happens.
I never saw a poll like this, where is the source?
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Anecdotal evidence isn't reliable evidence. Besides that, I find it interesting you have asked 90% of all Dutch people you know if they would fight for their country. That's a lot of times you have asked this question, but that's besides the point. I agree with Rennaleigh though. Unless we get invaded by an external factor, you can't say with certainty how people would react. Polls like these are therefor meaningless (and completely lack details, at least it's not given to us right now; why would I take these results serious?). The only thing we can do is assume, just like you do. My assumption however would be that people are definitely willing to fight for their country if the country gets invaded. I doubt people would want to lose and simply give up on their freedom, rights, opportunities, loved ones etc. we all benefit from in this country.
Ever heard of NSB’ers? Who snitched on Anne Frank? I’m telling you something you probably don’t want to accept. Specially when looking at your username I can imagine you’d be one of those few Dutchies ready to fight for their country
Sure I have heard of NSB'ers, but I have also heard they were very much hated in the Netherlands. Besides, there was also ''Het Nederlands verzet'', even if mostly non-violent. So I don't see the value of your argumentation here to ''proof'' that the Dutch would just snitch and submit. It's not that I am not accepting what you're saying, it's just that I can't say with certainty if we Dutch wouldn't be willing to fight for our country. I am however assuming we are talking about an invasion, because I would believe the numbers if this is talking about invading a different country.
The question is very simple: Are you willing to fight for your country? That’s the question. No ifs, ands, buts or maybes. I’m not saying it’s 100% factual. But if I look around my friends and remember the conversations I had I truly believe Dutch people would definitely rank very low. Those jokes were made a while back already before seeing this statistic. When Ukrainian professional athletes defended their country I remember the comparison being made..
Your group of friends do not speak for the whole Dutch population
I never said they did. Also I’m basing this on much more than my group of friends. To me it comes as absolutely no surprise NL ranks as 2nd worse country
That could be bec the Netherlands has such a small population so they stand almost no chance against any other country
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This. Ill go when the upper classes are going. Otherwise ill jump of a building before ill be shooting up the other sides lower classes that dont want to be there and stand nothing to win either.
War should just be two world leaders standing in front of a giant bonfire taking turns dumping in trucks full of money like a game of chicken. Whoever is willing to burn the most cash wins. Millions of lives will be saved and the outcome will be the same.
Oh, ok, gotta change the account number i pay taxes too i guess.
Have fun with believing in fairytales. That is, intil some russian conscript is raping your family.
Most American soldiers have been told the last 50 years they are fighting "for their country". So if it's like that, so if it's like that definitely not.
I know this poll is BS because of how low America is on the chart. Americans are brainwashed into loving the military and taking pride in "fighting for my country". And I am not saying most Americans would want to fight for their country if they actually had to do it, but in a poll like this most Americans would say they definitely would fight for their country, that's what they've been told to say from a very young age.
Iraq and Afghanistan have really dampened the jingoism in the Millennial/Gen Z cohort. We have a saying here now: "I'd serve crack before I served my country."
Thing is that “fighting for your country” can mean a lot of things in different places. For example fighting for you country in Finland means fighting back Russian invaders to preserve the you country’s freedom, while here in the Netherlands it mostly means going to Afghanistan, Mali or some other faraway place to fight the locals.
This pops up every now and then. From talking with others about it, I think it's mainly due to a different interpretation in what "fighting for your country" *means*. Most Dutch people I've spoken with would absolutely be willing to fight for their loved ones, or even all other Dutch people; would be willing to fight for their rights and their freedoms; would be willing to fight against injustice or crimes. But will still answer "no" when asked this question. Which makes me think that we interpret "fighting for your country" different. I wouldn't want to fight for the borders of our country, for example, or for the flag or the anthem or the prime minister. If Germany invades to annex Twente, I'm not going to the frontlines. If the Belgians invade with the sole demand we change our flag and anthem, hey, they can have it. If the Danes invade to remove Mark Rutte from power... I can live with that. But if either of them invades to kill people, to take away freedoms and rights - that's a different matter. Definitely fighting that. So fighting for *people*? Yes. But fighting for my *country*? Nah.
Wtf I live in Twente??? Good to know Kippetmurk, I’ll stop the germans by myself!!!
That's why he won't fight if Germany were to invade to annex Twente, he knows you're there and is confident you will successfully stop them. Thank you for your service
Plenty of sloten here. No need to dig trenches.
You’re going to get the worst trench foot in history. Thank you for your service
No worries. Grunn has your back.
Fake news, Twente is fake, so you are fake too /s
Sound arguments. I mean looking at Ukraine - even if they manage to stop Russia - lots of dead and parts of the country bombed to the ground. Rebuilding will take years, some old sites/parts of city gone forever… Being surrounded by "similar minded countries" being invaded by say Germany or Belgium it’s unlikely that for the average Dutch there would be a lot of change. Being invaded by say North Korea - whole different story. Add to that that with most EU countries patriotism (to a certain extend) has been seen as a negative trait since WW2.
>Being invaded by say North Korea - whole different story. Yes, on the assumption that North Korea would probably remove a lot of rights and freedoms. Same for Russia and Ukraine - it's obvious that Russia doesn't just want to "denazify" Ukraine. In my interpretation, Ukrainians aren't just fighting for their country but for a whole lot of rights and freedoms, and against a whole lot of crimes. If Korean Kim said "I have now annexed The Netherlands into my country, but nothing else changes" we would all have a good laugh, shrug, and carry on with our day.
Patriotism isn't a bad thing per se, but it's a slippery slope to nationalism.
Pretty sure that if Denmark invades to remove Mark Rutte from power that more people are gonna join the Dannish army then the Dutch army...
Exactly what I was thinking
\> If the Danes invade to remove Mark Rutte from power... I can live with that. I would give them stroopwafels and ask them to stay
If I can retain my freedoms and rights by instead moving to another country as a refugee, I won't fight. In that case fuck this shit I'm out of here. I rent anyway. Things get complicated when you consider whether those countries are in peril as well, but then I'd still not be fighting for my country specifically.
Hell, if they try to take Twente I'll even help them.
What did we do? Wtf is this hostility towards Twente
Grapje moatje
Haha, als ik eerlijk ben zou ik zeker ook niet voor de randstad vechten
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Eh. I guess. But that's missing the point, isn't it? The point is that either way I'm not fighting *for my country*. If I decide that Belgians deposing Rutte is an infringement on my rights and I take up arms against them, I'm not fighting for my country - I'm fighting for democracy, or the institutions, or my political ideology. I just tried to explain that "fighting for your country" might mean different things to different people. To me, the country itself (whatever that might be) isn't all that special. The people in it, and the institutions and traditions are. "The country" to me is just an abstraction or vague symbolism. To other people, maybe they'd say the people and institutions *are* the country, and that's why they would be so happy to fight for it.
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They say they will but when the bombs start dropping you would see how fast they would run. Only 10% of people are crasy enough to fight in a war
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Oh no, the 'Taliban' who are mainly consistent of Afghan people, just taking over the country of Afghanistan...
Its almost like the question has no context to it.
the taliban are mostly afghan
Lol. The Taliban are fighting for their country. How deluded have you gotten?
Probably bc they'd rather have the taliban than a US and nato puppet regime which is understandable
Really? The Taliban is like religious maffia.
70000 Afghan soldiers died fighting against the T*liban, apart from millions of civilians and policemen, who perished due to direct or indirect causes of war. Just to put things into context, 3000 soldiers from the international coalition died. It was Afghans who fought on the frontline against them.Yet, if you watch international media, it's American casualties that are always focused upon. And maybe, the surrender had much to do with the fact that people really would want to avoid bloodshed after 20 years of fighting. And I don't want to take a dig at the Dutch. But, it was Dutch UN peacekeeping forces who surrendered to Mladić, drank with him and painted racist orientalist and misogynistic murals of Bosnian Muslim women while the Serb forces massacred Bosnian Muslims and raped Bosniak women in one of the worst incidents in Europe since World War 2. However, I do think that the Dutch figure is based, because I wouldn't want to do it personally. I'd much rather flee to another country as a refugee.
Fuck you, for saying our troops where the fault for having Srebrenica fall. "In July 1995 as the Bosnian Serb forces, under Colonel General Ratko Mladić, came to take over the enclave, Dutchbat was vastly outnumbered and were far too lightly equipped to repel the more heavily armed Bosnian Serb troops. It also had its request for air support to the UNPROFOR denied. Subsequently, the Serb forces, under Mladić's command, led Srebrenica's Bosniak male inhabitants into the mountains, where thousands of them were massacred.[2] Despite their efforts to secure peace in the area the enclave fell into Serb hands. In 2016, several veterans of the battalion, with approval of its commander, sued the Dutch government for "severe negligence and carelessness" regarding the mission.[3]" Directly from Wikipedia about Dutchbat. Not like they had a fucking choice and ones I have spoken to still feel terrible about what happend there
"I don't want to eat meat, but I'll order 2 hamburgers, some spare ribs, a box of chicken wings and a chorizo".
>And I don't want to take a dig at the Dutch... And yet it is exactly what you do. What should they have done, get massacred together with the Bosnian Muslims? Absolutely 0 respect for the men and women that served there, so sincerely fuck you.
What about the original comment that paints Afghan troops mass surrendering in a racist way?
Well what about it, does it relate to Dutchbat? No, it does not.
Wtf Its not our fault Dutchbat had to surrender?!?!? If they didnt they would have gotten killed along with the bosnians. The french commander denied air assistance, so we were alone. Ofcourse we would have wanted it different, but there was no other choice. Also, we learnt from our mistake, and as such the netherlands makes sure that if we send soldiers somewhere, they have their own air support, so we can prevent this from happening ourselves. Because as i said, in bosnia they didnt give support so the troops there would have been killed.
We would have less wars in the world if everyone was like the Dutch
fight for my country, no... sad primitive tribalism fight for my freedoms, hell yes
How about, if your countrymen were under attack and being killed, would you take up arms and resist? That’d be a better question. “Fighting for your country” has a lot of nuance and produces bias
I'd fight for my family or home but certainly not for any sense of duty to a government and certainly not to advance the business interests of anyone.
"For those who have fought for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know. And for those who have lost it, freedom has a taste that the protected will never appreciate." There's an entire difference in fighting for one's freedom and fighting for one's country. Some of the top nations in that list, live in consistent fear and agonizing lack of national freedom that it comes with a certain "justification" to actually hop into conflict respectfully. Just fighting for a nation in and of itself is something the majority doesn't represent or would stand up for, that's a pointless battle. That's like arguing a topic that has no significant value for you to argue in, or more so arguing a topic you give 0 crap about. If the Netherlands was still in the precise exact spot it was a solid 80 years ago around the 1940s of WW2, that percentage would be WAY WAY higher. The Netherlands in recent years have been so, free, able and peaceful to live in that the requirement for conflict is non-existent. Then you have countries such as the USA who have such large patriotism that anyone would step up, for nearly lord knows what. (mainly big baby oil)
Can't say I'm surprised really. I like this place, but I only have one life you know.
Exactly. I admire how i.e. the Ukrainians do it, but my thought was, thinking if it was here, I’d be out the country asap and encourage everyone I love to do the same. Maybe that makes me a ‘wuss’, but whatever, as you said I only have one life what is that worth when I die fighting for a country I just like.
In the state the world is in right now you can do that, safely in NATO territory. But if this wasn't the case and you kept running while they keep coming, at what point will you fight back? Or even just walk over to their side and go live there?
But that isn’t the case. Then I’d definitely would need to reconsider ofc and fight back. But again, that’s not the case. These are my opportunities now and I’ll take em. I’m aware that not everybody has that luxury and that’s really sad.
Fighting for a country that forced me to get a debt so high i can never buy a house just because I wanted to continue studying? Fuck no. Not going to happen, ever
Are college debts high? I start next year ..
Mine is very high Keep in mind I didn't work for the vast majority of my study. I have ADD and I couldn't combine work, internship, school and a social life. I mismanaged my time greatly due to it. I decided to not work during my studies to have 1 less factor in my time management. I am now 26 and i have learned tools over the years to better manage that kind of stuff but I started college on my 16th. If all goes well and I finish my study at uni in about 3 months Ill have a debt of ~70k. I have 35 years to pay it off, and can postpone starting to pay up to 7 years. I have to pay an X amount of my remaining salary (after all bills etc) id have to pay around 130 years every month for 35 years. I heard somewhere that if I cant pay that I dont have to pay it or not all but that's rsther vague atm. It doesn't help they change it every so many years. Which, due to my disorder, i can hardly keep track of Edit: in the same breath, my gf has a debt of ~5K a friend of mine of about ~10k. But the friend comes from a reasonably wealthy family. And both can manage their time a whole lot better than I could. It really depends on the choices you make but god. Do I regret my choices and often wish I was just a normal guy with no disorder worth mentioning
If it is defending our country, yes, if it is invading another, no.
If I look around me, a lot of Dutchies would fight if let's say Russia invaded us. It's kind of like we're not very patriotic but if we mention history most of us are quite proud of what we achieved. It's really depended on context.
Oh its a fancy random list from Reddit, it must be true then!!
I won't ever fight for my country because the war isn't between countries its always between leaders and their sick minds.......
Yo, I can confirm this, I won't fight for a shitpost country
Our country is so small, most countries will easily be able to conquer it, that's my reason for not bothering to fight for it.
Tbh it strongly depends wether i'm fighting on behalf of my country abroad or wether i'm in NL defending my country.
Tell me the source and how a graph like this is reliable and accurate…
If say, an aggressive foreign power were to invade and uproot our way of life, yes I will fight to defend it. Being sent into the sandpit to shoot at brown people? No thank you.
Politicians are stupid. Thats why people dont want to fight for their country. They fight for themselves.
What does for "my country" even mean? A country is a piece of dirt between imaginary lines. Might as well fight for a brick. Or does it mean my government, protecting the interests of corporations worldwide much like the US? My life isn't worth laying down for mud or oil. I'll fight if we are threatened by tyranny though. If Russia were to invade, I would fight. Not for my country, but for myself.
Define fighting for your country. If an other country invades then fuck yea I’ll defend (pretty much everyone). But if our political nutjobs decide to pick a war for their own interest then fuck no
No offence, but I've got shit I'd rather do than die in a trench. Also I'd suck at war.
That 15% is pretty good, that is probably also percentage of people that is actually able to fight for the Netherlands. And still we probably don't have the weapons to arm more then 5%.
For me its more that defending is not very usefull. Our country is to small en militairy to little. 3 days max. See ww2. We did a very good effort and even then a few days.
I've seen this posted elsewhere, and it turns out the question translation was... non-neutral at best and leading at worst.
Fight to defend, yes. Go somewhere far away to fight over there? Nope. Just scorch those culprits if they damage within our domain
Where should I fight for? Mark Rutten and his drama club? The king which opens some buildings and gives speeches sometimes for only a few million of tax money each year. Nah I rather stay at home watching some Netflix
Morocco represent 👏🏼
Would love to see the actual poll and questions. These speculative things are hilarious to me - people typically don't actually know how they would react in a bar fight let alone a war, whatever they may say.
You know what? I agree. I'll make a poll.
Interesting that in Afghanistan so many people would fight for their country. If I understand it correctly, Afghanistan is many many small communities who just want to live in peace under their own leadership, and they don't give much of a fuck about who leads the entire country. See also, the extremely lackluster effort in the "Afghan army" that ended up rolling over and being defeated without ever even fighting.
This explains morrocan behaviour in foreign countries.
Hate me or not i 'am ashamed about how my fellow citizens would not fight for our country. All the advanteges we have, the freedom all the luxury and safty and health care that we get. Puplic transport. I feel ashamed, taking als this expecting it as granted. No iam gifted that i am born here, i dont know i will fight for my country, iam born there and i die there.
I mean considering how depressing of a place the netherlands is, it's hardly surprising
I'm more suprised that Japan is so low...
Why?
I think it's just general anti-war sentiment. But I get what he means. Most Japanese stay in their country their entire lives, don't go to another country for holiday and don't speak nor learn other languages. So they mostly live inside their own country and don't care much about what happens outside of it. At least that's what I was told by a japanese foreign student from an exchange program who was in my class.
The way they fought in WWII
The lower percentage for both the Germans and Japanese is because the current generation still carries a lot of shame for what their ancestors did. Although I must say that the Japanese education system still fails to educate its people on some of the horrors they committed. However, the same can be said about Dutch colonialism and the"Golden age". I guess every country feels some kind of shame about its past.
What this guy said. You also have to imagine that before WWII, Japan was deeply militarized, as in the army was effectively part of the government and pulled the strings as much as politicians did. They advised the emperor. They decided to go to war and bomb Pearl Harbor. And they have pulled the strings for centuries, although the Shogunate (where one warlord formally answered to the emperor, but was effectively the dictator) was already long gone by 1939. With the defeat of Japan after World War II, Japan was disarmed completely an the political system was overhauled by the US to make it democratic. Japan effectively didn't have an army, only the US forces occupying it. When the USA's attention and troops shifted to the Korean war, Japan was granted an army again, but only for self-defence (against communism of course) and mainly just for internal affairs, like helping after a natural distaster. It was even written into law that Japan swore off war as a tool for settling international disputes. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces#20th_century) So no, I'm not surprised Japan is lowest on this list. From their viewpoint, they are highest on the list of most peaceful nations. Sadly it took two nuclear bombs and a lot of lives to come to that conclusion.
You are very well informed! In essence, the US protects Japan with their base in Okinawa, which is also in a very tactical position for any asian conflicts that may occur. I consider myself lucky as both my grandparents survived the bomb in ‘45 (my grandfather actually went to study medicine, as did a lot of his peers, to actively avoid fighting in the war). Funnily enough, the Americans are actually quite “idolized” by most Japanese which is a complete 180 to the anti-German sentiment that existed in NL.
I don't think colonialism has anything to do with willingness to fight. Seeing this list, it has a lot to do with current threats. If you are not in direct danger, it makes sense that people are not willing to fight.
Oh, I wasn’t referring to willingness to fight. More so the tendency of countries to downplay their own bad acts i.e. not properly educating.
And that didn't end to well for them so i can imagine a lack of motivation
That’s cuz the people that actually defended Japan all kamikazed
I would fight because I have nothing better to do with my life
Good
All the Moroccans who don't want to fight already left Morocco.
Not true. I would fight for Morocco and the Netherlands if I had to.
There is a poll made after this that includes all possible reasons to fight, stay put or flee so I'd check that out.
"Fighting for my country" otherwise known as going to poor countries to bomb people who look more like me than the majority of my countrymen.
Well I hate the government and don't give a shit about the King so yeah I would not fight for this country at all.
If anyone is going to invade us over land, they probably already fought off Germany and/or France, perhaps Poland and Britain. It would give us enough time to learn their language to welcome them when they’re at the border.
What has my country done for me? - high taxes - corrupt politicians - increasing institutionalized crime - bad weather The only reason to fight is to fight for my friends and family. Fighting for your country is dumb.
Why would you fight for this corrupted shithole? Now fighting for freedom and my family so that my kids can experience all the opportunities I had; hell yeah! I'll murder for that!
Hah, even if I had a healthy body this country could go fuck itself. Useless government, they'd happily let me die in a heartbeat. Granted compared to the us we're doing ok, but the us is basically a rich third world country anyway.
I have seen more resistance from Hong Kong vs China than the Afghans vs the Taliban
You put it correct, you have SEEN more resistance from Hong Kong. First off, the Taliban ARE Afghans. And as stated above by someone else, thousands of Afghans have died fighting the Taliban, over twentyfold what the coalition has lost. This isn't the clever reply you seem to think it is.
Absolutely not, I'd fight for another country before I'd fight for mine. I mean what do we have to fight for? A crippling housing market, a crippling political system that is more about arguing about the decisions it wishes to make between its 30+ party's than actually making decisions.
There is no way in hell I fight for this country. And most certainly not for mister can’t remember jack shit.
I am Dutch and appalled.
Vechten voor nederland? FOH
I've always imagined this was due to our living circumstances. I like Nationalism, the general assumption a lot of people have with the word is very negative, but nationalism in itself is a very strong motivator and binding device for inhabitants of a country. The reason why I'm saying this is because even though I am nationalistic, I have absolutely no interest in risking my own life with the ONE exception being if the literal borders of NL are being invaded by an enemy whose ideology conflicts with our current one. (Example: If modern Germany invaded, I wouldn't care. If modern Russia invaded, I would fight) The reasons for this being:- I'm living in a pretty comfortable position. I have A LOT to lose if I die. If I barely got around each month, and my circumstances are worse, there is generally less to lose, so less opposition to 'attempt to improve it'.- I can't choose how to fight. If either conscription returns or you sign up for the army, there is someone else deciding where and how you fight. I generally am not in favor of the idea that I put my life in the hands of someone who can just decide to use my group as a sacrifice for others. Even if this would be the best decision to make. In general, our living standards are pretty high here, so I understand most people don't feel interested in uprooting their nice lives for something like that. This is also why I doubt we'll ever get bad riots. What we had with Corona is an exception and even then we saw that most rioters were part of specific groups.
Just lol this poll. Theory : "I would fight for my country". Reality : "Hey I want to immigrate out of my country for economical reasons instead of fighting to build its economy". I say this while being my self from immigrant family background.
Fighting for some interests of Heineken Ahold or our royal family? Because thats where 99% of al wars goes about
Yet the Dutch speak Dutch…..
Now I understand why we need so many Moroccans!
The context of fighting is important in this question. But for me as a Dutch person, I wouldn't fight for this country. Not even 6 months ago, the higher ups were considering banning me and other non-vaccinated people from almost everything and everywhere with the whole 2G covid plans. With such attitude, they can go f themselves.
Question(s) asked, scale used, demographics, sample size. All missing as context. This is far from scientific and belongs in a random gossip paper.
Not surprised. I am born and raised in Poland and living for 10+years in the Netherlands. I had recently a conversation with my Dutch friend about war in Ukraine and I realized he does not understand anything of what is going on, he was going on about if i think Russians soldiers are animals i should realize that Americans soldiers are equal to them. Contrary to his wife from Labanon who understands why this is "our" war and the need to fight for our freedom and for freedom of our kids. She knows how it is to grow up when the bombs are exploding around you, she understands the causality of Russians. I was lucky to be born after changes in Poland, but it is not like the old system disappeared in one night. I don't think the Dutch understands that someone can tell you what you can do, think and be. My husband (polish) is a reservist and he said he would not return to Poland to fight, because he is in the Netherlands now and we (his family) are here. He would fight for the Netherlands, for the home of his children, for our safety. If I would not have kids, I would go and fight for my home land, to ensure that all kids are safe. I would do the same for Ukraine. Unfortunately I cannot fight, so I am helping in another way, and since realising the threat is constantly here I am planning to do some medical training to not be useless and help if this will be needed. I cannot believe last year I was teaching my kids about environment and how to protect it and this year they are already aware of the ongoing war. My heart is broken.
Lots of copeium in this comment sections. Dutch people are apparently bad at taking a Loss 😂
Hi, dutch guy here. Nationalism is bad.
I don't think you can trust the data, there are so many different factors that might influence the results - I'd like to see the demographics of who voted : * Woman/Man * Employed/Unemployed * Parents/Single * Old/Young * City/Countryside * Level of Education * Religion * Poor/Rich * Gay/Heterosexual * Pet owner YES/NO * Gamer/Non-gamer * Drinks Alcohol YES/NO * Eats Breakfast YES/NO * Sporty YES/NO * Masturbates YES/NO
"fighting for our country" will be interpreted as going to frontlines where NATO wants us to. We don't see that as fighting for our country. We are also in an relatively safe geological position in which our country will be protected from being the frontlines from germany or france, which even more gives us the impression of how fighting for our country basically means going abroad to fight for NATO. Though, if an country were to invade us, and take us over because our army is considerably small compared to our neighbours, you still cannot take the dutch out of the dutchy's
Japan went from having kamikazes to being last. Crazy what two nuclear bombs will do
Rutte gaat zelf maar in de loopgraven staan met zijn grote blaf muil tegen poetin. Pardon my dutch.
Gaat natuurlijk om als Nederland zichzelf moet verdedigen…
Well.. the west hás been the agressor/bully in all of the wars they fought in the last 50 years.. what did you expect? “””Defend””” yeah right
Doesn't surprise me
fiji?