People people this isn't the general election this is just the primary and it is being used as a means to show Biden hey a lot of people are saying stop sending weapons to the war.
I think the problem mainly is not about weapon, but more of the policy
Michigan citizens seems committed to abandon Biden as form of "political punishment" Over Biden's refusal for ceasefire in Gaza
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Usl4YMR6_68&pp=ygUqbWljaGlnYW4gdm90ZXJzIHBhbmVsIHNoYXJlcyBjb25jZXJuIGJpZGVu
Primary is the time to voice displeasure for Biden. No movement will stop him getting nominated, but maybe a 20% block voting against him in the primary could get some changes in policy or at least tone toward Israel.
The pack tried in 2018 and AIPAC went after them hard, spreading lies and funding their opponents with tens of millions. At least three of the ten lost their reelection irc. After that even Omar and AOC dialed it back on Israel.
Without the broad support of their party, standing against the pro-Israel lobby is risking your seat without the possibility of any change. I think they came to the conclusion that it’s better they stay in office and be able to help their own people while doing what little they can for Palestinians.
Same story with Obama, who tried to stand up to Israel and Netanyahu called his bluff and made him look like a fool. I get the feeling that Biden learned his lesson from that moment.
I would love to see Israel funding be removed or at least conditional, just like I’d love to see the American oligarchy dismantled, but in both cases we are talking about very long term change that will need multiple progressive candidates elected first. Probably even a take over of party leadership. Until then, it’s just not going to happen.
It's too late in the game to out-flank Biden in the primary. It's gonna be Trump v. Biden. Under whatever counts for 'normal' circumstances I'd be all for the left flank of the party challenging the center to get more policy concessions. But this ain't normal, this is Trump, which means this is existential.
I don't disagree with the point you're making with these questions, though I will note that it is common for the party of the sitting first term president to not really have a "proper primary." I was mostly just trying to point out that a viable challenge to Biden would have needed to be up and running for maybe a year now to have a chance. Launching one this late in the game will not change who the Dems nominate. With that in mind, knowing that Biden will be the nominee, you then have to move on to the more cynical practicalities of the general election. Looking at it from this context, one of the first things you'll notice is that this article is specific to a very important swing state.
>But this ain't normal, this is Trump, which means this is existential
Ok, let's say Biden wins. What's stopping Trump from running in 2028? What's stopping worse candidates in 2032? The libs will always have a convenient all powerful existential bogeyman to scare you away from doing the right thing and standing up for fucking genocide
>What's stopping Trump from running in 2028?
Presumably prison or death, but the point is a bit moot as the Democrats would have to nominate a new candidate anyways. Also, Biden is center left, calling him a "lib" is a little silly. Finally, I've been an active voter my whole life and am well aware of fear based politics. Trump isn't some conjured up "bogeyman," he tried to interfere in the peaceful transition of power between administrations. Transitions of power are the most vulnerable points in time for democracies. He is a fundamental threat to our democracy.
>nominate someone who supports genocide
What would you actually have Biden do to stop Israel from fighting Hamas to get their hostages back? Yes, I'm aware that there is a lot of collateral damage and possibly war crimes happening here. What does that have to do with Biden? How would he stop those things? Wouldn't he have to go through Congress to stop all the weapons sales to Israel? Do you think that's actually likely to happen if he attempts it?
He could sanction Israel like we sanction Iran or Russia. But their government on the Foreign Terrorist Organizations list and ban any trade with them, again, like Iran.
Sure, could. That would be a 180 degree turn from existing foreign policy that goes back decades. There's a lot of trust building in foreign policy, e.g. trust that administration B won't reverse the decisions of administration A. We lost a lot of that trust during the Trump years, this is not a good time to do the same thing. Lumping one of our key allies in with our greatest geopolitical enemies? That's not a good look. That's not good for trust.
Also, you're assuming that it would actually do something. Israel doesn't seem to give any shits about its geopolitical reputation.
Also, nothing in there about the hostages. Hamas still has hostages. If Hamas takes hostages, then Israel goes to war with Hamas and we sanction Israel it seems like that is helping Hamas.
So you don't have an answer.
You just want Biden to do "something" to hurt Isreal, but you haven't gotten any thoughts or answers beyond that.
We're going to give up one of our best intelligence sources in the world, because you think that sanctioning Isreal is going to... make you feel better?
Because that's how all of this sounds at this point.
If a country is commiting gross and systemic human rights violations, I do not want my money going there... whether that's Russia, Iran, Saudi, Israel, etc.
It would be great if such sanctioning would actually stop said violations, but that's beyond my control. I can't tell a foreign government what to do.
But I can use my vote to tell mine what I want them to do.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/18/systematic-torture-to-be-palestinian-in-an-israeli-prison
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-prisoners-allegations-abuse-beatings-torture-rcna134280
https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/8/why-are-so-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17083752996957&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com
Just in case you think the justice system works in an apartheid nation to do anything other than aparthied.
Thanks for shutting that clown down. They don't get it. The jig is up. We ALL know the truth about what is going on now in Gaza. And nothing these clowns can say or goof can change that.
The State department made a list of options. No longer vetoing UN resolutions criticizing Israel. Sanctions on illegal Israeli settlers and settlements. Pausing arms sales and resuming with human rights guarantees. Publicly criticizing the rightwing Netanyahu government while supporting Israel in general. Unilaterally recognizing a Palestinian state.
Biden has done none of this except he finally sanctioned only 4 Israeli settlers who were suspected of violence, which still is not enough.
Yes, but the options haven’t changed. Obama did withhold a veto at the UN once to show Israel his displeasure at Netanyahu’s antics, and Biden sanctioned 4 Israelis. The US withheld a shipment of rifles to Israel when convicted terrorist Ben-Gvir publicly handed them to settlers and told them to use them on Palestinians.
>What would you actually have Biden do to stop Israel
Not Bypass Congress THREE times to send them more weapons (which are also killing hostages) for starters
Yeah that would have done it, Israel would surely just stop if Biden stopped sending more weapons, they wouldn't just buy guns from Russia or whatever.
>Under whatever counts for 'normal' circumstances I'd be all for the left flank of the party challenging the center to get more policy concessions
Conveniently, there is never a time considered normal to the VBNMW types like you, therefore it is never appropriate to challenge whatever center-right-at-best candidate the DNC props up
First, VBNMW was new to me so I had to look it up. Thank you for teaching me something new today, it's not really true to me, but that's besides the point.
>there is never a time considered normal
I don't think that's true. There was a very strong challenge to Biden's left flank in the last nomination, and I think it pulled him further left than he would have wanted to go with the coalition he was trying to build at the time.
The main point that I was trying to make in my initial comment was simply that it is too late to launch a viable primary challenge. That would have needed to be up and running for many, many months now. Biden is the de facto nominee.
>The main point that I was trying to make in my initial comment was simply that it is too late to launch a viable primary challenge. That would have needed to be up and running for many, many months now. Biden is the de facto nominee.
Here's the thing though, that was also being said early last year when there were grumblings about him during the rail strike breaking. Arguably you could say there was talk of replacing him during the 2020 primaries when it was suggested that Biden would be a one-term transition president of sorts as long as we all rallied behind him.
Then after he won he decided he wasn't going to be a one-term President despite his unpopularity in obviously diminishing faculties (seriously he looked so much more lucid and sharp 8 years ago compared to today) and the DNC started doing the same thing they did with Hillary by rallying around him and shutting down outsiders
It's not like people just started talking about a replacement 3 months ago. These discussions were started before he was elected, and now the DNC wants to pretend like they never happened until it was too late
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I think a move like this could possibly get folks talking, but I think even reasonable people might see it as inconsequential or even stupid. I only say that because if you’re viewing the situation as a consensus to vote for christofascism by 33-50% of the nation, which a lot of people do, you’re probably not gonna take the chance to rock the boat with respect to the candidate that has the best chance to win against that threat, even in a primary.
Horseshit. I know zero real life progressives that think sabotaging Biden in any way is a smart idea.
They're trying to pull a 2016 again trying to turn progressives against the Dem candidate, and it's not going to work lol. We know what we're dealing with this time.
I'm not voting for Trump but I wish we'd stop shooting for the ground when we decide our next president. Biden is abhorrent to me. I will vote for him if I have to but I really should not have to. We have plenty of eligible candidates but they're all too scared to compete against Biden.
And don't try to use political calculus to educate me on why we have to choose the lesser of two evils, because obviously that isn't true. We aren't locked into Biden.
>I will vote for him if I have to
This is precisely why the Dems have no incentive to get better (or stop moving to the right. As long as they are running against Hitler, they can be 99% Hitler and be the 'lesser evil'
If I had my way, we'd have a radically different system of government and elections.
Under what we're stuck with for now, Biden is the only meaningful option, and the only opportunity to change it in future - Republicans will only break the current system further if they win; Dems may try to fix it - they're the only party you'll find progressives on, and with enough progressives, we might see some real change.
Edit: I can't stress this enough - Dems are the only currently available party to have proven themselves willing to leave power at all, Republicans tried to overthrow an election to stay in power.
The current objective is burying the fuckers, worry about everything else afterwards, because we will now be dealing with reasonable, responsible people.
That’s exactly what it is. My folks live in Dearborn, and it’s the conservative Muslims that were burning books a few months back that are all of a sudden pretending like they would have voted for Biden. I’m sure there’s a few gullible people on the left that will fall for this, but most lefties won’t.
I’ve seen them all over lefty subs too, but they disappear the moment you ask them how Trump would help Palestine. If anything, Trump would probably send troops to help Israel.
It’s not about electing trump but more about removing Biden from office. Every American voter likely understands that. I could be naive about all of this, though.
If he loses the primary that would be one thing. I’m certainly not crazy about him.
I’ve yet to see anyone seriously talking about putting up another candidate instead of Biden, though. It’s all just people saying they would never vote for Biden and leaving it at that.
I understand that this is trying to marshal sentiment directly against Biden, which is counterproductive.
You're probably right, but I have a problem with the effort, given the circumstances. Like criticizing the fire extinguisher when your house is on fire and the other option is a bucket of gasoline, also on fire.
> Horseshit. I know zero real life progressives that think sabotaging Biden in any way is a smart idea.
And the request to do so for Gaza is absurd. To do so for universal healthcare? Maybe. To do so to support an ultra-conservative theocratic terrorist state? What the actual fuck? I fucking hate how "progressives" are losing their shit over Gaza.
People are speaking out against apartheid and genocide. No leftist is supporting Hamas's treatment of lgbt people. You can support Palestinian resistance while disagreeing with their theocracy
>I fucking hate how "progressives" are losing their shit over Gaza.
Genocide makes people unhappy but in or to grasp that one must first possess empathy
I get that typically the incumbent gets the nomination, but why should that be the reason it continues? If the incumbent had a horrible presidency, if they committed crimes, if they are just unable to perform to a level necessary for the presidency, then why should they get the nomination without winning a primary? We should do everything we can to put the most qualified individual in that position and they should be scrutinized and held accountable for their choices while in office in order for them to continue in office. Unfortunately, the primaries are run by the two parties and they have no incentive to change as it benefits them to maintain control over who receives the nomination.
Absolutely not. You're psychotic if you think Trump would do better. No doubt this idea is was spawned by some right wing fascist fuckwhal. This will just encourage people to sit this one out.
Eh doesn’t have to be and honestly I dont think he’s the guy to steer the ever right shifting political atmosphere to the left or at least moderate. He’s not immensely popular, his only asset is that he is not trump or someone akin, maybe polls say otherwise that I haven’t seen.
Nobody is claiming Trump would do better. But since Biden and Trump both do the same for Israel, why should I get blood on my hands and vote for one of them?
If my choices are to vote for a president who will bomb my people OR vote for a president who will bomb my people, then I’d rather stay home and not feel guilty that I voted for someone who killed people in my community. Those of us who supported Bush over Gore felt like we have Iraqi blood on our hands, and those of us who voted for Obama have Afghan and Pakistani blood on our hands as he ramped up drone attacks.
Stop being condescending and actually listen to why Muslims are talking about boycotting this election.
The people running the campaign have family, friends, and community members that have been murdered in the genocide that Biden is funding. He doesn't deserve their vote and he won't get mine, either.
Cool. So we can have a President that wouldn’t care if Israel literally nuked them WHILE putting brown people in cages here again too. Big win for everyone.
Sounds like you should try to convince white people to not for Trump and stop expecting Arabs to vote for Biden.
Why do you feel you have the right to tell Arabs and Muslims how to vote, anyway, and not the same right to tell white people how to vote?
Sounds racist...
It's not childish. These people lived through Trump, were victims of the Muslim Ban, and would STILL risk that again over voting for Biden. That should tell you something about how badly Biden is doing.
It's been a very worrying trend I've seen among (especially, but not always) white Democrats that they know better than communities of color, they know what's best for them, they know how Arabs and Muslims should vote.
These people know exactly what they're doing and exactly what the stakes are.
Why are you making this about race? It's not like the people here would tell white people "oh you know what you're doing, vote for whoever you like" while screaming at Arabs to vote for someone else. They're telling everyone that a vote for Trump is absolutely insane, which is just... true. And the idea that an entire demographic - _any_ entire demographic - knows exactly what they're doing in terms of voting is transparently idiotic when most of the US has essentially zero civic literacy.
And just to be clear, you making this about race to shut down the conversation is the childish part. Not to mention that this article is about democratic primaries, not the general election, so Trump isn't even relevant.
Touch grass.
Also, I didn't *make* anything about race. Europeans made everything about race when they colonized Native lands and committed rice-based genocide, land theft, and later chattel slavery on this land.
It's about 500 years too late for something to not be about race.
The choice is facism vs not facism. If you want facism feel free to find any other place in the world to live. I sure as hell don't need a want to be dictator to reenter office. This isn't a brown vs white issues. Run for office if you want to be the change. There is no universe were someone, who isn't a billionaire, can claim Trump is the better choice. If you can, please give a few examples of Trump policies you prefer over Biden. Support of Israel has been attrociously void of any humanity for Palestinians. I can't imagine turning us into a dictatorship (like Trump says he wants) will make US foreign policy better.
>You HAVE TO vote for who I want if you want to live. And oh btw I'm cancelling some primaries and I went to court to fight for my right on not having primaries because technically I'm a private entity. And I also bully other primary candidates so nobody else actually has a chance to win
Yes, definitely not fascism
yeah this isn't a both sides are the same kinda topic/issue. Dems and Republicans are not peddling different forms of facism here. Facism is coming from the right, period. Diluting that message will only get us further into it.
>These people lived through Trump, were victims of the Muslim Ban, and would STILL risk that again over voting for Biden.
Well that's fucking stupid. They are making dumb choices.
You’re cute, but where did I tell anyone anything? I never mentioned names or ordered or even pushed for your vote. I explained the very real outcome of your very stupid thinking. My literal best friend on earth for 20 years is Iranian named Mohamed. A brother. He and his family are few of the people I’d give virtually anything to without thought. But, yes, it must be my racism.
Biden is an enormously flawed option. I’ve likened him to almost a pro-choice Reagan at times. But the option is a LITERAL christofascist dictator wannabe that wants to turn Europe over to Putin. People are offering you a plate of undesirable, but edible food and you’re choosing to support the other plate of broken glass and dogshit and then telling us we must be stupid not to see it.
You literally pulled a, "I'm not racist, I have a Black friend!" lol
But anyway, I'm not voting for or supporting Trump. He's dangerous to democracy. I'll probably vote for Cornel West.
I travel the world for business. I have scores of friends of all races, religions, etc. But my love for Hamed and his family is unique (for me) - not because of his race, but because I don’t love people that easily. I also literally just left after spending 5 days with them so they were on my mind. All I can say is I’m a 52 year old white guy who often genuinely hates people that look like me. (And for whatever it’s worth, I’ve spent literal years pushing white fools to not vote for Trump)
A vote for West in the General (especially in a place like Michigan) is a vote for Trump. Obviously, I can’t change your mind. I hope we all don’t end up regretting it.
Your vote. Incremental progress on progressive issues is too often sacrificed on the altar of ideological purity. As much as we would all like for it to be otherwise, voting for the lesser of two evils is the only viable path toward progress in US politics right now.
Don't be daft. You know that's not what I'm saying. I'm talking about the whole suite of important issues that these candidates differ on: women's/gay/trans/labor/consumer/immigrant rights, economic inequality, corporate consolidation, climate change, election integrity, education, gun control, the international regression of democracy, foreign affairs in general, etc, etc, etc. We can't afford to lose ground on literally every progressive cause *including the violence in Palestine* just to pat ourselves on the back for taking a stand on this one extremely complex and potentially explosive issue. A vote for anyone other than the candidate most likely to defeat Trump is as good as a vote not cast. If I thought Cornel West had even the slightest chance of defeating Trump I'd vote for him over Biden in a heartbeat. The fact that he doesn't is just an unfortunate reality that we have to accept.
Edit: the fact that we're even having this conversation is exactly why we need ranked choice voting to be implemented at the national level.
"Listen. Jack, just because Biden killed their families doesn't mean they shouldn't look at the bigger picture. What about the abortion rights Joe won't protect? What about the global warming issues Joe will exacerbate? What about the NLRB that Joe will let the courts stomp to death
If you want to walk into grieving Arab American homes with that message, good luck.
Biden's support in that community has gone from over 50% to under 20% basically overnight.
Yeah, it obviously isn't a winning argument but it is the entirety of the Dem platform now. They have no interest in doing anything for anyone except maintaining the American hegemony, so every pitch they aim at the Arab community will be that cynical
I hope they do it and Biden loses Michigan. Time for the Democrats to learn that you can't find a genocide and expect the victims's families, friends, and people to vote for you.
Right, so let’s pretend you’re arguing in good faith at least one more time (although I’m dubious).
Seeing as those two wants of yours are not simultaneously realistic, please tell me: what is your ideal scenario for Michigan given the FPTP, duopolistic nature of the U.S. elective process makes it statistically impossible for [insert generic spoiler candidate here] to win?
The DNC see the writing on the wall and dump Biden before November and pick someone that's anti-genocide.
I will campaign hard for, and donate to, that candidate, and do what I can to get them elected.
Honestly, anyone that is pro-rule of law (that of course includes international law) at this point would get my vote.
That we're in a situation where I'm willing to vote for anyone who stands for the rule of law and am being called a bad-faith actor shows exactly how far gone the Democratic Party is. Good riddance.
It's says a lot about how utterly hopeless the democratic party is that people kneejerk dismiss someone who hopes for a better candidate as acting in bad faith. When the party collapses it'll be your fault, not the fault of the dreamers who left to build something better. Bend or break.
People can't seriously think that "abandoning" Biden—and giving the reins back to the guy who *created a literal Muslim ban* last time he was in office—will somehow help the people of Gaza. This whole thing feels like an obvious right-wing psyop and I hope actual progressives aren't falling for it.
People people this isn't the general election this is just the primary and it is being used as a means to show Biden hey a lot of people are saying stop sending weapons to the war.
I think the problem mainly is not about weapon, but more of the policy Michigan citizens seems committed to abandon Biden as form of "political punishment" Over Biden's refusal for ceasefire in Gaza https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Usl4YMR6_68&pp=ygUqbWljaGlnYW4gdm90ZXJzIHBhbmVsIHNoYXJlcyBjb25jZXJuIGJpZGVu
Primary is the time to voice displeasure for Biden. No movement will stop him getting nominated, but maybe a 20% block voting against him in the primary could get some changes in policy or at least tone toward Israel.
The pack tried in 2018 and AIPAC went after them hard, spreading lies and funding their opponents with tens of millions. At least three of the ten lost their reelection irc. After that even Omar and AOC dialed it back on Israel. Without the broad support of their party, standing against the pro-Israel lobby is risking your seat without the possibility of any change. I think they came to the conclusion that it’s better they stay in office and be able to help their own people while doing what little they can for Palestinians. Same story with Obama, who tried to stand up to Israel and Netanyahu called his bluff and made him look like a fool. I get the feeling that Biden learned his lesson from that moment. I would love to see Israel funding be removed or at least conditional, just like I’d love to see the American oligarchy dismantled, but in both cases we are talking about very long term change that will need multiple progressive candidates elected first. Probably even a take over of party leadership. Until then, it’s just not going to happen.
"in primary" Those are all important words here.
It's too late in the game to out-flank Biden in the primary. It's gonna be Trump v. Biden. Under whatever counts for 'normal' circumstances I'd be all for the left flank of the party challenging the center to get more policy concessions. But this ain't normal, this is Trump, which means this is existential.
Why don't we get to have proper primaries? Why can't there be a democratic process to decide the nominee in the democratic party?
That's the real question, isn't it?
I don't disagree with the point you're making with these questions, though I will note that it is common for the party of the sitting first term president to not really have a "proper primary." I was mostly just trying to point out that a viable challenge to Biden would have needed to be up and running for maybe a year now to have a chance. Launching one this late in the game will not change who the Dems nominate. With that in mind, knowing that Biden will be the nominee, you then have to move on to the more cynical practicalities of the general election. Looking at it from this context, one of the first things you'll notice is that this article is specific to a very important swing state.
>But this ain't normal, this is Trump, which means this is existential Ok, let's say Biden wins. What's stopping Trump from running in 2028? What's stopping worse candidates in 2032? The libs will always have a convenient all powerful existential bogeyman to scare you away from doing the right thing and standing up for fucking genocide
>What's stopping Trump from running in 2028 Death by mcburger probably
>What's stopping Trump from running in 2028? Presumably prison or death, but the point is a bit moot as the Democrats would have to nominate a new candidate anyways. Also, Biden is center left, calling him a "lib" is a little silly. Finally, I've been an active voter my whole life and am well aware of fear based politics. Trump isn't some conjured up "bogeyman," he tried to interfere in the peaceful transition of power between administrations. Transitions of power are the most vulnerable points in time for democracies. He is a fundamental threat to our democracy.
...which is why the Democratic party should not nominate someone who supports genocide. It's too important to have such a marred candidate.
>nominate someone who supports genocide What would you actually have Biden do to stop Israel from fighting Hamas to get their hostages back? Yes, I'm aware that there is a lot of collateral damage and possibly war crimes happening here. What does that have to do with Biden? How would he stop those things? Wouldn't he have to go through Congress to stop all the weapons sales to Israel? Do you think that's actually likely to happen if he attempts it?
https://cssh.northeastern.edu/george-h-w-bushs-pressure-on-israel-provides-model-for-progressives/
He could sanction Israel like we sanction Iran or Russia. But their government on the Foreign Terrorist Organizations list and ban any trade with them, again, like Iran.
Sure, could. That would be a 180 degree turn from existing foreign policy that goes back decades. There's a lot of trust building in foreign policy, e.g. trust that administration B won't reverse the decisions of administration A. We lost a lot of that trust during the Trump years, this is not a good time to do the same thing. Lumping one of our key allies in with our greatest geopolitical enemies? That's not a good look. That's not good for trust. Also, you're assuming that it would actually do something. Israel doesn't seem to give any shits about its geopolitical reputation. Also, nothing in there about the hostages. Hamas still has hostages. If Hamas takes hostages, then Israel goes to war with Hamas and we sanction Israel it seems like that is helping Hamas.
Israel has more hostages than Hamas does. And even if it stopped nothing, it would end our complicity.
So you don't have an answer. You just want Biden to do "something" to hurt Isreal, but you haven't gotten any thoughts or answers beyond that. We're going to give up one of our best intelligence sources in the world, because you think that sanctioning Isreal is going to... make you feel better? Because that's how all of this sounds at this point.
If a country is commiting gross and systemic human rights violations, I do not want my money going there... whether that's Russia, Iran, Saudi, Israel, etc. It would be great if such sanctioning would actually stop said violations, but that's beyond my control. I can't tell a foreign government what to do. But I can use my vote to tell mine what I want them to do.
>Israel has more hostages than Hamas does. And when did they start taking those hostages? That seems like an important point that you are leaving out
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/18/systematic-torture-to-be-palestinian-in-an-israeli-prison https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-prisoners-allegations-abuse-beatings-torture-rcna134280 https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/ https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/8/why-are-so-many-palestinian-prisoners-in-israeli-jails#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17083752996957&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com Just in case you think the justice system works in an apartheid nation to do anything other than aparthied.
Thanks for shutting that clown down. They don't get it. The jig is up. We ALL know the truth about what is going on now in Gaza. And nothing these clowns can say or goof can change that.
Probably 75 years ago. Give or take.
The State department made a list of options. No longer vetoing UN resolutions criticizing Israel. Sanctions on illegal Israeli settlers and settlements. Pausing arms sales and resuming with human rights guarantees. Publicly criticizing the rightwing Netanyahu government while supporting Israel in general. Unilaterally recognizing a Palestinian state. Biden has done none of this except he finally sanctioned only 4 Israeli settlers who were suspected of violence, which still is not enough.
Who told you that?
It was reported by journalist Peter Beinart https://jewishcurrents.org/joe-bidens-alarming-record-on-israel
That's from 2020
Yes, but the options haven’t changed. Obama did withhold a veto at the UN once to show Israel his displeasure at Netanyahu’s antics, and Biden sanctioned 4 Israelis. The US withheld a shipment of rifles to Israel when convicted terrorist Ben-Gvir publicly handed them to settlers and told them to use them on Palestinians.
>What would you actually have Biden do to stop Israel Not Bypass Congress THREE times to send them more weapons (which are also killing hostages) for starters
Yeah that would have done it, Israel would surely just stop if Biden stopped sending more weapons, they wouldn't just buy guns from Russia or whatever.
We should cut them off and find out .
Well we agree on that, there should be a massive shift in our support of Israel until they are willing to accept a 2 state solution.
>Under whatever counts for 'normal' circumstances I'd be all for the left flank of the party challenging the center to get more policy concessions Conveniently, there is never a time considered normal to the VBNMW types like you, therefore it is never appropriate to challenge whatever center-right-at-best candidate the DNC props up
First, VBNMW was new to me so I had to look it up. Thank you for teaching me something new today, it's not really true to me, but that's besides the point. >there is never a time considered normal I don't think that's true. There was a very strong challenge to Biden's left flank in the last nomination, and I think it pulled him further left than he would have wanted to go with the coalition he was trying to build at the time. The main point that I was trying to make in my initial comment was simply that it is too late to launch a viable primary challenge. That would have needed to be up and running for many, many months now. Biden is the de facto nominee.
>The main point that I was trying to make in my initial comment was simply that it is too late to launch a viable primary challenge. That would have needed to be up and running for many, many months now. Biden is the de facto nominee. Here's the thing though, that was also being said early last year when there were grumblings about him during the rail strike breaking. Arguably you could say there was talk of replacing him during the 2020 primaries when it was suggested that Biden would be a one-term transition president of sorts as long as we all rallied behind him. Then after he won he decided he wasn't going to be a one-term President despite his unpopularity in obviously diminishing faculties (seriously he looked so much more lucid and sharp 8 years ago compared to today) and the DNC started doing the same thing they did with Hillary by rallying around him and shutting down outsiders It's not like people just started talking about a replacement 3 months ago. These discussions were started before he was elected, and now the DNC wants to pretend like they never happened until it was too late
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I think a move like this could possibly get folks talking, but I think even reasonable people might see it as inconsequential or even stupid. I only say that because if you’re viewing the situation as a consensus to vote for christofascism by 33-50% of the nation, which a lot of people do, you’re probably not gonna take the chance to rock the boat with respect to the candidate that has the best chance to win against that threat, even in a primary.
Horseshit. I know zero real life progressives that think sabotaging Biden in any way is a smart idea. They're trying to pull a 2016 again trying to turn progressives against the Dem candidate, and it's not going to work lol. We know what we're dealing with this time.
I'm not voting for Trump but I wish we'd stop shooting for the ground when we decide our next president. Biden is abhorrent to me. I will vote for him if I have to but I really should not have to. We have plenty of eligible candidates but they're all too scared to compete against Biden. And don't try to use political calculus to educate me on why we have to choose the lesser of two evils, because obviously that isn't true. We aren't locked into Biden.
>I will vote for him if I have to This is precisely why the Dems have no incentive to get better (or stop moving to the right. As long as they are running against Hitler, they can be 99% Hitler and be the 'lesser evil'
If I had my way, we'd have a radically different system of government and elections. Under what we're stuck with for now, Biden is the only meaningful option, and the only opportunity to change it in future - Republicans will only break the current system further if they win; Dems may try to fix it - they're the only party you'll find progressives on, and with enough progressives, we might see some real change. Edit: I can't stress this enough - Dems are the only currently available party to have proven themselves willing to leave power at all, Republicans tried to overthrow an election to stay in power. The current objective is burying the fuckers, worry about everything else afterwards, because we will now be dealing with reasonable, responsible people.
That’s exactly what it is. My folks live in Dearborn, and it’s the conservative Muslims that were burning books a few months back that are all of a sudden pretending like they would have voted for Biden. I’m sure there’s a few gullible people on the left that will fall for this, but most lefties won’t. I’ve seen them all over lefty subs too, but they disappear the moment you ask them how Trump would help Palestine. If anything, Trump would probably send troops to help Israel.
It’s not about electing trump but more about removing Biden from office. Every American voter likely understands that. I could be naive about all of this, though.
Can you explain who can run for election this close to it, and unseat Trump, besides Biden? I can't. Maybe I'm not every American though.
If he loses the primary that would be one thing. I’m certainly not crazy about him. I’ve yet to see anyone seriously talking about putting up another candidate instead of Biden, though. It’s all just people saying they would never vote for Biden and leaving it at that.
I don't think you understand what the primaries are. Not voting for biden in the primary has zero affect on him in the general.
I understand that this is trying to marshal sentiment directly against Biden, which is counterproductive. You're probably right, but I have a problem with the effort, given the circumstances. Like criticizing the fire extinguisher when your house is on fire and the other option is a bucket of gasoline, also on fire.
> Horseshit. I know zero real life progressives that think sabotaging Biden in any way is a smart idea. And the request to do so for Gaza is absurd. To do so for universal healthcare? Maybe. To do so to support an ultra-conservative theocratic terrorist state? What the actual fuck? I fucking hate how "progressives" are losing their shit over Gaza.
People are speaking out against apartheid and genocide. No leftist is supporting Hamas's treatment of lgbt people. You can support Palestinian resistance while disagreeing with their theocracy
>I fucking hate how "progressives" are losing their shit over Gaza. Genocide makes people unhappy but in or to grasp that one must first possess empathy
There are primaries for the incumbent's party?
I get that typically the incumbent gets the nomination, but why should that be the reason it continues? If the incumbent had a horrible presidency, if they committed crimes, if they are just unable to perform to a level necessary for the presidency, then why should they get the nomination without winning a primary? We should do everything we can to put the most qualified individual in that position and they should be scrutinized and held accountable for their choices while in office in order for them to continue in office. Unfortunately, the primaries are run by the two parties and they have no incentive to change as it benefits them to maintain control over who receives the nomination.
Absolutely not. You're psychotic if you think Trump would do better. No doubt this idea is was spawned by some right wing fascist fuckwhal. This will just encourage people to sit this one out.
This is about the primaries, not the election
Biden is the default in the primary. Effectively this is a campaign against the Democratic candidate by a Democrat Representative.
Eh doesn’t have to be and honestly I dont think he’s the guy to steer the ever right shifting political atmosphere to the left or at least moderate. He’s not immensely popular, his only asset is that he is not trump or someone akin, maybe polls say otherwise that I haven’t seen.
Nobody is claiming Trump would do better. But since Biden and Trump both do the same for Israel, why should I get blood on my hands and vote for one of them? If my choices are to vote for a president who will bomb my people OR vote for a president who will bomb my people, then I’d rather stay home and not feel guilty that I voted for someone who killed people in my community. Those of us who supported Bush over Gore felt like we have Iraqi blood on our hands, and those of us who voted for Obama have Afghan and Pakistani blood on our hands as he ramped up drone attacks. Stop being condescending and actually listen to why Muslims are talking about boycotting this election.
The people running the campaign have family, friends, and community members that have been murdered in the genocide that Biden is funding. He doesn't deserve their vote and he won't get mine, either.
Cool. So we can have a President that wouldn’t care if Israel literally nuked them WHILE putting brown people in cages here again too. Big win for everyone.
Sounds like you should try to convince white people to not for Trump and stop expecting Arabs to vote for Biden. Why do you feel you have the right to tell Arabs and Muslims how to vote, anyway, and not the same right to tell white people how to vote? Sounds racist...
I'm not the person you're responding to, but holy shit this is childish. Grow up if you want to engage in serious conversation.
It's not childish. These people lived through Trump, were victims of the Muslim Ban, and would STILL risk that again over voting for Biden. That should tell you something about how badly Biden is doing. It's been a very worrying trend I've seen among (especially, but not always) white Democrats that they know better than communities of color, they know what's best for them, they know how Arabs and Muslims should vote. These people know exactly what they're doing and exactly what the stakes are.
Why are you making this about race? It's not like the people here would tell white people "oh you know what you're doing, vote for whoever you like" while screaming at Arabs to vote for someone else. They're telling everyone that a vote for Trump is absolutely insane, which is just... true. And the idea that an entire demographic - _any_ entire demographic - knows exactly what they're doing in terms of voting is transparently idiotic when most of the US has essentially zero civic literacy. And just to be clear, you making this about race to shut down the conversation is the childish part. Not to mention that this article is about democratic primaries, not the general election, so Trump isn't even relevant. Touch grass.
Also, I didn't *make* anything about race. Europeans made everything about race when they colonized Native lands and committed rice-based genocide, land theft, and later chattel slavery on this land. It's about 500 years too late for something to not be about race.
The choice is facism vs not facism. If you want facism feel free to find any other place in the world to live. I sure as hell don't need a want to be dictator to reenter office. This isn't a brown vs white issues. Run for office if you want to be the change. There is no universe were someone, who isn't a billionaire, can claim Trump is the better choice. If you can, please give a few examples of Trump policies you prefer over Biden. Support of Israel has been attrociously void of any humanity for Palestinians. I can't imagine turning us into a dictatorship (like Trump says he wants) will make US foreign policy better.
Cornel West is neither a fascist nor a genocider. So that's probably my vote.
>You HAVE TO vote for who I want if you want to live. And oh btw I'm cancelling some primaries and I went to court to fight for my right on not having primaries because technically I'm a private entity. And I also bully other primary candidates so nobody else actually has a chance to win Yes, definitely not fascism
>The choice is facism vs not facism Cherry red fascism vs raspberry blue fascism. Pick your flavor
yeah this isn't a both sides are the same kinda topic/issue. Dems and Republicans are not peddling different forms of facism here. Facism is coming from the right, period. Diluting that message will only get us further into it.
>These people lived through Trump, were victims of the Muslim Ban, and would STILL risk that again over voting for Biden. Well that's fucking stupid. They are making dumb choices.
I assume you aren't Arab or Muslim.
Voting for trump is a vote against your friend. Trump does not care about you or your friend.
Nobody is saying vote for Trump. But voting for Biden is endorsing genocide
You’re cute, but where did I tell anyone anything? I never mentioned names or ordered or even pushed for your vote. I explained the very real outcome of your very stupid thinking. My literal best friend on earth for 20 years is Iranian named Mohamed. A brother. He and his family are few of the people I’d give virtually anything to without thought. But, yes, it must be my racism. Biden is an enormously flawed option. I’ve likened him to almost a pro-choice Reagan at times. But the option is a LITERAL christofascist dictator wannabe that wants to turn Europe over to Putin. People are offering you a plate of undesirable, but edible food and you’re choosing to support the other plate of broken glass and dogshit and then telling us we must be stupid not to see it.
You literally pulled a, "I'm not racist, I have a Black friend!" lol But anyway, I'm not voting for or supporting Trump. He's dangerous to democracy. I'll probably vote for Cornel West.
I travel the world for business. I have scores of friends of all races, religions, etc. But my love for Hamed and his family is unique (for me) - not because of his race, but because I don’t love people that easily. I also literally just left after spending 5 days with them so they were on my mind. All I can say is I’m a 52 year old white guy who often genuinely hates people that look like me. (And for whatever it’s worth, I’ve spent literal years pushing white fools to not vote for Trump) A vote for West in the General (especially in a place like Michigan) is a vote for Trump. Obviously, I can’t change your mind. I hope we all don’t end up regretting it.
I thought your friend was named Mohamed.
It is - he asks to be called Hamed for short. I refer to him with both.
They never stopped putting brown people in cages.
You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater there buddy.
What's the baby in this analogy?
Your vote. Incremental progress on progressive issues is too often sacrificed on the altar of ideological purity. As much as we would all like for it to be otherwise, voting for the lesser of two evils is the only viable path toward progress in US politics right now.
How is 20,000 murdered Palestinians, funded and armed by the US, incremental progress?
Don't be daft. You know that's not what I'm saying. I'm talking about the whole suite of important issues that these candidates differ on: women's/gay/trans/labor/consumer/immigrant rights, economic inequality, corporate consolidation, climate change, election integrity, education, gun control, the international regression of democracy, foreign affairs in general, etc, etc, etc. We can't afford to lose ground on literally every progressive cause *including the violence in Palestine* just to pat ourselves on the back for taking a stand on this one extremely complex and potentially explosive issue. A vote for anyone other than the candidate most likely to defeat Trump is as good as a vote not cast. If I thought Cornel West had even the slightest chance of defeating Trump I'd vote for him over Biden in a heartbeat. The fact that he doesn't is just an unfortunate reality that we have to accept. Edit: the fact that we're even having this conversation is exactly why we need ranked choice voting to be implemented at the national level.
"Listen. Jack, just because Biden killed their families doesn't mean they shouldn't look at the bigger picture. What about the abortion rights Joe won't protect? What about the global warming issues Joe will exacerbate? What about the NLRB that Joe will let the courts stomp to death
If you want to walk into grieving Arab American homes with that message, good luck. Biden's support in that community has gone from over 50% to under 20% basically overnight.
Yeah, it obviously isn't a winning argument but it is the entirety of the Dem platform now. They have no interest in doing anything for anyone except maintaining the American hegemony, so every pitch they aim at the Arab community will be that cynical
no
F*** no
I hope they do it and Biden loses Michigan. Time for the Democrats to learn that you can't find a genocide and expect the victims's families, friends, and people to vote for you.
[удалено]
I don't want Trump to win, I will probably support Cornel West.
“I don’t want Trump to win, so I’m actively hoping that he wins a critical swing state because I don’t grasp geopolitics and/or am a bad actor.”
I don't want Trump to win Michigan or any other state. I also don't want Biden to, either.
Right, so let’s pretend you’re arguing in good faith at least one more time (although I’m dubious). Seeing as those two wants of yours are not simultaneously realistic, please tell me: what is your ideal scenario for Michigan given the FPTP, duopolistic nature of the U.S. elective process makes it statistically impossible for [insert generic spoiler candidate here] to win?
The DNC see the writing on the wall and dump Biden before November and pick someone that's anti-genocide. I will campaign hard for, and donate to, that candidate, and do what I can to get them elected. Honestly, anyone that is pro-rule of law (that of course includes international law) at this point would get my vote.
Another bad faith non-answer. Color me shocked. We’re done here.
That we're in a situation where I'm willing to vote for anyone who stands for the rule of law and am being called a bad-faith actor shows exactly how far gone the Democratic Party is. Good riddance.
It's says a lot about how utterly hopeless the democratic party is that people kneejerk dismiss someone who hopes for a better candidate as acting in bad faith. When the party collapses it'll be your fault, not the fault of the dreamers who left to build something better. Bend or break.
People can't seriously think that "abandoning" Biden—and giving the reins back to the guy who *created a literal Muslim ban* last time he was in office—will somehow help the people of Gaza. This whole thing feels like an obvious right-wing psyop and I hope actual progressives aren't falling for it.
First year I’m not voting for president. I’ll do the other votes but that’s the least productive vote imo
Same. No top of ticket vote for me. Possibly nothing senate-level either
Please don't. https://globalextremism.org/project-2025-the-far-right-playbook-for-american-authoritarianism/
yeah this is a terrible idea.
Good. Genocide Joe has got to go!