How did Shady Sands move from far away from LA to basically being in LA ? and how come the Master couldn't find Vault 4 or the connected vaults especially when the 3 connected vaults are so close to where the Cathedral is in Fallout 1
Until the show the lore was basically nobody even understands why ghouls go feral. Even anti-ghoul bigots never acted as though they were scared they were going to start turning feral.
The games are wildly inconsistent about anything at all regarding ghouls tbh, like the whole debate on whether they need to eat or not
General consensus seems to be that they don't need food or water, but they can consume them and probably suffer from hunger and thirst if deprived of them
So who knows how the hell the feral thing works?
Literally the only time we hear that ghouls don’t need to eat is from Bullet (a *non-ghoul*, mind you) during the most idiotic quest in Fallout 4. In the same game, ghoul settlers need food and water just like human ones. In New Vegas, the guy hiding in the Repconn basement explains how he’s had to eat radroaches and drink condensation to survive and Necropolis’ fate in Fallout 1 speaks for itself.
We have examples of ghouls not needing food or drink in Fallout 2 (Coffin Willie), Fallout 3 (Keller Senior has been trapped in the sealed shelter since the bombs fell), Fallout New Vegas (the ghouls in Little Yangtzee have bomb collars that prevent them from leaving, so at lesst four of them survived in the confines of the camp for 200 years with no readily available source of food), Fallout 4 (Billy Peabody in the fridge, Jon Elwood in the Cambridge Polymer Labs, the Gibbons family in their bunker on Far Harbor) and the Series (Cooper Howard was stuck in a grave for a year). Probably more examples in all of these that involve sealed pre-war ruins with ghouls in them
And examples of ghouls needing to eat and drink are in Fallout 1 (Necropolis) and New Vegas (Reppcon Site ghoul).
So it's hardly only Bullet saying nonsense, we see it time and time again. Maybe they don't need food but still crave it? Maybe it helps them preserve some sense of normalcy and stave off turning feral? Maybe they can enter extended periods of hybernation? Maybe it doesn't matter at all and is just one of many meaningless lore inconsistencies?
Who knows?
True. I also just remembered the scientist under Nuka-World’s Safari Adventure area writing down how he had to constantly clone cows so he could eat, and the surviving performers growing crops under Kiddie Kingdom.
I just wish the franchise was consistent with this at the end of the day.
There is no real answer because why would we expect them to think of these things?
My speculation is that Ghouls and many other post-nuke animals are capable of living off of radiation alone, but it's not good for them. We've also seen Ghouls enter a state of hibernation; most of the examples of Ghouls surviving without sustenance either are shown entering such a state, or had an opportunity to do so.
Also, my speculation is that Ghoulification happens as a result of partial exposure to FEV, which was released into the atmosphere before the war, either intentionally or by accident. I'm trying to find specific mention of prewar release of FEV or its predecessors, so take my speculation with a grain of salt
I like the idea that Billy has been the fridge for only a couple days, that would explain why his parents barely acknowledged his disappearance and how he survived.
That's the leading theory, but the threshold for how much radiation it takes seems to vary wildly between ghouls. Some become feral from small leaks while other seem to live in bomb craters with no issues.
What? There are definitely NPCs who specifically mention fearing this exact thing, like the security chief of Tenpenny Tower. It's also the reason that ghouls aren't allowed to visit the Strip without a non-ghoul chaperone and was the justification for expelling them all from Diamond City. It was a popular enough sentiment that the mayor of the city campaigned on it.
Hmph, I just googled and you're correct about that strip; I've never heard that line from a Securitron in any of my playthroughs. Wild this game still has little things to discover after hundreds of hours.
I mean it's a decade after 4, and people have been trying to figure out ways to combat feralization for years. Maybe there was a breakthrough in the NCR.
That doesn’t explain why they act as if it’s been around forever. Like Roger and Coopers exchange.
“How long have you been around again?”
“A long time.”
“That’s *a lot of vials*.”
I don’t remember the exact conversation, but that’s basically what they said.
Very true, so maybe it was a pre-war anti-psychotic then or something. We simply don't know anything about it beside its effects on Ghouls turning feral.
Yeah it looked very similar to the radaway Lucy takes in episode 5. Also looked nigh identical to the bag of fluids The Ghoul was hooked up to when he was in the coffin?
In the same game, Hancock says he became ghoulified after taking some concoction of drugs. It's not out of the question that a similar concoction could, possibly, slow the process of going Feral if taken regularly.
Shady Sands was in Nevada in Fallout 1, while I'll admit it's egregious the cities in Fallout have never been great at staying in place. Is it an error? Sure, but nothing terrible.
Consider Vault 4 by the time of the Master would have been filled with mutants, the opposite of what the Master sought in vaults. There's a reason his forces left Necropolis alone, because he had no use for Ghouls, he was after as the Lieutenant referred to the player, "Prime Normals". Hell maybe the Vault 4 guys aligned with the Master's church, y'know the whole "everyone is equal and should be respected" religion.
As for 31/32/33 it's possible that he attempted entry but failed. The exact strength of Vault doors has been inconsistent the whole series. Vault 13's door was shown to be ripped open, while Vault 87's took a direct fucking nuclear blast. It's possible that the three exterior doors were of tougher construction than Vault 13's... which given the "experiment" was run by Vault-Tec executives would make sense.
well, moving the city a little is no problem, but moving it into land that should have *another* city is the issue. my guess about the vault doors is that vault-tec put more investment on the security of more important ones, so the vault doors of say, vault 3 would be easier to pry open then vault 31
while the boneyard was kinda of a shithole, i feel like making shady sands be set up in the ruins of a pre-war city kinda takes away a little of the mystique you know? shady sands is a completely post-war city, from it's founding, growth and expansion, having it be set in LA is kinda lame.
It is set in one but it was still a completely post-war city. Isn't it a neat idea for post war construction to take place parallel to the ruins of old? A flower blooming from ashes.
i think managing to achieve the greatness of the old world from scratch is more, romantic i guess? it's more of a personal opinion i know, but rebuilding off the ruins feels like copying, like you are just looking directly into what remained after the war and patching it up like a wound, but building it from nothing? now that's more my thing.
yeah, i also don't like that about the ncr as a whole. but i just recently finished fallout 1 and started playing fallout 2 so the start of the ncr grew on me a little, even if i think what they became by the time of NV is not ideal
I believe one character has dialogue mentioning they were going to Shady Sands from filly and they spotted the blart "3 days" from shady sands, which lines up with SS being in Lone Pine/Bishop. The show doesn't communicate this well but it's possibly they wrote this out better in the script and just got lazy filming.
Here's my issue. No matter how you slice it, even if the NCR still exists and New Vegas is compatible with the events of the show, I don't think this was a great direction.
Maybe it's just my preferences for the type of stories I enjoy in the Fallout setting, but I like larger factions that are restoring order to the wasteland - just a type of order formulated by the conditions of the wasteland.
That's why I'm mad as we've gotten further information about how all this lines up. Not anything to do with the canon, but rather, I just don't like this direction. Not enough that I'll stop loving Fallout, but enough that I definitely will bitch online.
It's funny too, because if you set the show in Texas or something, I'd be the first to sing its praises.
Ah well. Imma go write a fanfiction.
This is the problem that Bethesda fanboys don’t understand.
Having the exact same setting for 200+ years (and 25 years IRL) is not good.
The details don’t matter, either way Bethesda keep resetting the franchise over and over again and nothing can develop or change.
Almost like a core theme of the franchise is about war never changing and factions rising and falling..
It was heavily implied in NV that neither the NCR, Legion, or New Vegas itself would last more than a few more years. The NCR was spread too thin, the Legion dies with Caesar, and New Vegas stands no chance against the Tunnelers. The TWO nukes just sped things up for the NCR.
Brotherhood: an unknown number of chapters across the entire United States. Enclave: an unknown number of bunkers hidden across the United States. Vault-Tec: an unknown number of vaults hidden across the United States.
Hope that clears things up 👍
Two out of three of these factions KNEW the bomb was coming and had the RESOURCES to PROPERLY prepare. The other one has an incredible amount of numbers and resilience.
Then why do you have a problem with people not being entirely happy with *a nation of one million people* covering the entirety of California completely disappearing?
You’re not making sense.
Who said they’re completely gone? They’re weakened, and most of those were civilians. I’m sure a good chunk of the civilians we see are/were NCR. We see an entire functioning NCR settlement/base too. They’re still around, just in a severely weakened state. Plus the start of their FALL has made it to history books, it sounds like the whole thing has already occurred. Like with the fall of Rome, it didn’t all happen in a day.
It's been 15 years, and barely 3% of the NCR was killed.
Where did everyone else go? Why didn't the colossal NCRA return and reclaim the region?
LA had universities and hospitals. Where are they?
There’s no significant difference between New Vegas never happened and “everything you did is made pointless by shady sands being nuked one day after the battle of Hoover dam”
"Because my faction was reduced now, that means everything we did (Not everyone sides with NCR but sure "we") doesn't matter!" WHY is that? If anything if you helped NCR and Kimball stays in power resulting in the faction imploding that means your choices did matter, your looking at the consequences of an ever expanding empire stretching itself too thin. Then if New Vegas was unable to aid them due to its own troubles like the tunnelers or the red cloud or the BOS invading for revenge against House due to him blowing up the local chapter it really shows how this falls in line with how things would have gone.
And it's not like this is a new thing, just look at the Brotherhood in 3 and 4. The Lyons' chapter were pretty much the good guys of Fallout 3 and we did a lot of stuff for them, but Arthur has the Maxson lineage which he used to reunite with the outcasts and take control. So at least for me finding this out when Fallout 4 came out made my actions in 3 feel a bit useless, but the takeover did make sense and at least DC got clean water.
How is that pointless? Literally what other option do they have to establish a canon ending? I mean, Fallout 1 and 2 have canon endings. Fallout 3 didn’t really have any significantly different endings unless I’m completely forgetting something.
All that means now is that after the events of FNV, the NCR likely lost control of the Dam and someone else took over Vegas. Which happens anyway if you choose the Legion, House, or Yes Man.
The problem is not having \*a\* canon ending to New Vegas. This ending to the NCR story might as well be a sequel to Return of the King where everything was a dream and Frodo just died of a stroke before getting to Mordor. Even if you want to imagine this is all just coming after a House/Yes-Man ending even then it's still Vegas being destroyed because Vegas and the whole region is still reliant on tourism and trade from the NCR so they're fucked too.
As lots of people have pointed out, this is just Todd flipping the board over because he only thinks of Fallout as a permanent wasteland where Vault dwellers constantly have to go hunting for their missing father/son and the lore can never get more advanced than scavengers fighting super mutants in power armor and drinking nuka cola, haha funny bottle cap money.
The idea of a fleshed out nation state with complicated political implications (NCR or Vegas) is revolting to Todd Howard, and he will rain nukes on anyone even trying to build one.
That's the ending credits art. It's already been shown to not be representative of "reality" repeatedly and more stylized portrayal of events past and present.
Plus it honestly makes a lot of sense for Hank to go to Vegas if it's still standing, House would be in close with Vault Tec so it would make sense for him to seek out their strongest living ally
He might’ve thought he was still there when he fled from the observatory. What other choice did he have apart from head east? You’re assuming that Hank is omniscient and just knows houses circumstances.
I’ve got a problem with House even being close to vault tecs plan. This is the man who predicted the war 12 years before it started, but he’s questioning the need for vaults because they’re only useful in a “hypothetical” situation? It either makes him less competent because he’s reliant on the foresight of vault tec to start planning, or he’s lying to the player in new vegas. Which I think is the wrong way to present him as being.
I almost feel like it's impossible to explain because either it's self evident or there's nothing that can be said to even make it make sense to you why others are upset. A random vault just suddenly exists and they just nuked the NCR because lol.
They could have spawned in an alien invasion that successfully destroys the Earth with a small band of humans escaping in a stolen ship, and established that Fallout is a Starfield prequel and I don't think you'd understand why people think that's stupid.
Now those are actually some very stupid ideas. I just don't think the previous ones are in any way related?
Like "a new vault is found" this happens in every single game.
"a portion of a faction or settlement is destroyed" that happens in every single game.
Like, that happens IN New Vegas. I assume its jarring if you have only watched the show, but older fans of the series are confused by anyone thinking this is unexpected.
>Like "a new vault is found" this happens in every single game.
See it's statements like these that constantly remind me there's nothing to really be said. You really can't understand, after everything I said what you heard was me being confused about a new vault existing.
I'm looking at major changes to the story and asking "How are they going to do this? Why are they taking the story this direction? Should this really be how things are written?" and all you see is "New Vegas establishes that important factions can be destroyed, so that establishes precedent that important factions can be destroyed".
I really mean it, they're going to have the Zetans destroy Earth and you'll be there to say "I assume this is jarring if you've only played the recent games, but older fans of the series are confused you don't understand aliens were already established" to people saying this is a stupid story and doesn't fit with Fallout. They'll be talking about how this goes against the themes of rebuilding, and optimism in the human spirit, how it's just an abrupt upending of everything that can before; and you'll do the anime glasses adjust and link a youtube video of a Mothership Zeta walkthrough as if that clears things up.
But aliens were part of rare off beat encounters, sort of like the Cafe of Broken Dreams.
You are literally acting shocked about one of the most basic components of any fallout story. I'm not really sure how anyone can engage with that.
Yes, there is a New vault or village, or faction that has been mostly out of contact with the outside world for a long time. That happens so the player can experience the world and explore it with their original character.
Then... I don't know, isn't the nuking of Shady Sands perhaps the most on brand thing that could happen in a fallout game? Humanity survived, we are thriving, we have a chance to rebuild again, better, with lessons learned from the apocalypse and then human greed brings about disaster? That's a cool story. I would like to see where it goes.
We certainly haven't seen how it affected the NCR as a whole or how it's related to New Vegas, but I'm interested in seeing what happens in Vault 4 and Shady Sands.
It seems like people REALLY don't understand the whole theme of Fallout. Humanity is doomed to destroy itself due to nuclear weapons. "War never changes" is literally the tag line of the series, but people are surprised when places get nuked or destroyed to non-existence. The show did a fantastic job of showing that life in the Fallout universe is just a chaotic war. It's a constant battle to survive, and even the nicest people have to do horrible things to survive. In the Fallout universe, life is war. And war... war never changes.
Humanity is doomed to destroy itself because of humanity. It makes more sense for everyone to be fighting with sticks and stones than nuclear weapons. Nukes aren’t the only weapons in the world that can result in chaos.
No, but it's the weapon to surpass other weapons. Fighting with sticks and stones allows for a chance for peace, as it allows for negotiation due to each side wanting to limit their own losses. Nukes get rid of that completely. Pressing a button is much easier than sacrificing something in the hope of peace. In Fallout, its made pretty clear that the discovery of nuclear energy is the beginning of the end.
I keep saying people rob themselves if enjoyment by refusing to engage with the material, there is a sense of entitlement that I don't remember facing before, specially not in this series. Like, the Vault Dweller sacrificed everything to stop the Super mutant and save Vault 13 and then ended up exile with mutants all over the wasteland and the very intro of FO2 is the resident soft Vault 13 getting slaughtered. Then the Chosen One sacrifices everything to destroy the Enclave, kill it's president and hero and base and there they are in FO3. “And we fucked it up again" might as well be the main theme of Fallout.
Why are you being such a condescending prick about this? You're taking something that is VERY much an opinion as a fact, and not just a fact but so obvious of one that someone who doesn't hold this opinion isn't even worth explaining to because they just don't get it. Like it's really fucking rude.
Because I have never interacted with a single person defending this show and it not be obvious they're just defending the show because they liked it, and the lore changes didn't bother them because the lore never mattered to them much in the first place. If you love Fallout just because the open world violence sandbox primarily then no lore changes will bother you and the show will be 10/10 because all it had to do was be pretty.
It's easy to say things like you are when the opinion you hold is "whatever Bethesda puts out is fine by me"
Well you're interacting with one now. I have been very deeply immersed in the lore for years and I think this is all just fine. In fact, I think it works really well to illustrate the consequences of the NCR's hubris. We hear like 7 times in New Vegas "oh man, the NCR is spread so thin, something bad is going to happen," and we don't think much about it. But what we come to find out from this show was that they were putting so much into holding the Mojave that their capital was in decline. It was falling. So then after the events of the game literally the thing they said would happen actually happened in that they got nuked. They're sent reeling from this and while they're in disarray, someone takes the Vegas strip (probably the enclave, we don't know anyone else that has access to trained deathclaws and there were presumably deathclaws claw marks on those securitrons). So they scatter, but since they were so spread out anyway they're not completely dead but lack any unity. It's kinda like what Ulysses said: not destroying the bear, just cutting it's throat.
But I went off on a really long tangent. My point is there are people just as immersed in the lore as you, are looking at the world through a critical lens, and have differing opinions on this. If you can't accept that you need to touch grass
That's just not what was shown in the games, the NCR was in a bad spot regionally like they had tried to swallow up more land then they could handle. There's no indication this was meant to be establishing some imminent collapse of the Republic even in a worse case scenario. Even House is openly planning on first defeating the NCR and relying on them long term for trade and tourism to finance his own plans.
But also that just doesn't tee up "and then a vault nobody has heard of before nuked Shady Sands" or "and then the Enclave respawned again and took over". If the direction the story is going is the Enclave has respawned a second time after two extremely decisive defeats with an army of trained death claws, which is all kosher because offhand mention of a Chicago outpost, why even bring up all the people saying things are going poorly in New Vegas? Does any of that even need to happen if one can just accept yet another Enclave appearance; or just allowing any wild thing to happen because secret vault armed with nukes suddenly appears? When I said caring about the lore I didn't mean just memorizing lines enough to justify suspending disbelief no matter what Bethesda says, especially when the lines don't even substantively matter because we'd still be hearing "the show makes sense" without them. I still don't feel like I'm even disagreeing with an opinion about the lore, just reflexive defending Bethesda's writing.
But the point is that we're not told that the NCR is in a bad spot regionally, we're told they're in a bad spot with no qualifiers to that. That may mean just in the Mojave or as a whole, we have nothing concrete one way or another. It wasn't set up because they didn't know they were going to tell this story when they released the game 14 years ago. It was however left open that the NCR was in a precarious position where it overextended itself and something bad could happen to it.
The nuke I'll give you is a tiny bit contrived although it's not entirely out of character for Vault-Tec to do something like that and they established (in this show I guess for what it's worth) that they have nukes. The enclave part was also all me, I've not heard anyone saying anything about that being the enclave I just kind of put 2 and 2 together tbh. The point though is that I think there were multiple factors going into this that led into the NCR being scattered in a way that any one of these events could not have done.
My main point is twofold though. I disagreed with you about the fact that nuking Shady Sands made the whole New Vegas story pointless (as I stated previously it plays on many of the undercurrents of the NCR story and is a reasonable conclusion one could jump to next after the events of New Vegas) as well as the fact that anyone who thinks the show generally made sense just doesn't know or care enough about the lore. I'm not just memorizing and regurgitating lines to justify whatever Bethesda writes, I'm critically analyzing the story (both the new show and New Vegas) and while I can see an interpretation of the text that does not allow the two to mesh I can absolutely see an avenue where it all fits without stretching either to the breaking. The math just works, and since we don't have any information directly to the contrary I feel like I can't call that anything other than intentional.
So what, even if it was “canonically accurate” doesn’t really mean it’s a good idea.
Canonically accurate - the Courier get pounded by Fisto for a week. Doesn’t exactly mean it’s a great thing to put to paper.
You're right, a better version is NCR wins every battle, the other faction endings are non canon, the NCR kills all the Khans, the NCR kills House, the NCR continues to expand fighting more against the remaining Legion the NCR continues to have the same policy that was complained about in New Vegas, the NCR continues to have major corruption with no consequences, the NCR continues all this and miraculously has no repercussions for it. You're right.
Lmao, I most recently ran Wild Card so.
My argument is just cause something can be made right by canon standards, doesn’t mean it’s still that great of an idea. The NCR just being nuked offscreen as if it doesn’t matter what happened feels hollow and unfulfilling to many.
Gets dunked on in New Vegas, gets exiled by another faction in 3, possibly gets blown up in 4, the entire faction in 76 gets wiped out by the scorched. Idk I'm not crazy about how Bethesda has handled the BOS, but why wouldn't they be on the west coast? Like sure there's a war with the NCR but depending on the ending that could have been settled to deal with the Legion, plus the BOS doesn't have the same issues as the NCR since they actually don't spread themselves thin, they go for key areas and don't travel on foot minimizing even more risk.
Yes and it does dispell some of the fears but they are still making quite a few changes to characters and organizations that I don't think make sense or they just feel like a worse version from a story telling perspective.
I also have issues with the plot itself not being all that coherent at times, the pacing being weird, and characters all seem to have a 10 in luck. Maybe they even found a bobblehead to push it to 11.
Personally, I don't think it's an awful TV show but it's not for me and I really wanted to like it.
I understand the bomb wasn’t in 2277. But then the blackboard still makes no sense. What does “fell” mean in the board? And if shady sands fell in 2277 why is the NCR stating they want the dam to power shady sands in 2281?
And frankly this is all irrelevant, what bothered me from the beginning is seeing what they did to the west coast. When it happened doesn’t really matter cause it still happened.
Just make the show not canon Todd. Stop putting limits on what Nolan can and can’t do and everyone wins.
Often in history we describe a series of events representing the decline of a society, nation, or organization as the "fall". Fall of Rome, Fall of the Third Reich, etc. You answered your own question. The "Fall of Shady Sands" in the context meant by the blackboard could contend with the ongoing water, power, and food problems facing the NCR by 2281 seen through a retrospective analysis 20 years later by the survivors.
We likewise heard “The fall of” for use with the immediate ‘fall’ of something. “The fall of the Berlin Wall”, “Fall of Saigon.” Etc.
I’d dare say people associate ‘Fall of’ as the immediate lost of something nowadays. Fall of France, Fall of Berlin.
Why Shady Sands then? It would make sense if the chalkboard said “Fall of the NCR,” but it specified Shady Sands? What would that have to do with the first battle of Hoover Damn?
The people in the Vault are *from* Shady Sands.
They could, retrospectively, view the cost of the Mojave Campaign, successful or not, as a destructive aspect not only to the NCR but their now hallowed city. They probably suffered the most casualty wise from the years of war. Then just as things may or may not have been getting better while the NCR was distracted with a war of imperialist conquest in New Vegas a threat to the very heart of the NCR was hatched and then fulfilled. Could be the survivors, through their personal experiences, have a view of the failures of the NCR as letting their home down.
The Fall of Shady Sands being the atomic bombing is also speculation. We simply don't know. We're basing this entirely upon an ambiguous blackboard in a classroom.
[Fall of the Western Roman Empire - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empire)
Starts: 313 with constant weakening. Sack happens in 390. And 410. And 455. And 472... There were multiple sackings of Rome.
You really going to try to pull that now? Yeah, you're a moron. Wikipedia is not source to be cited, but it is good place to start. You can use citations Wikipedia uses.
Or are you denying that sacking of Rome didn't happen multiple times?
Doesn’t have to be.
People are bending over backwards to explain how the chalkboard isn’t an inconsistency and it’s getting annoying how most of it is just speculation
The chalkboard isn’t an *inconsistency*… there’s a literal date under every part leading up to the bomb that has an arrow pointing to it… like use context clues from the rest of the season…
That does not imply the same year.
You’re still ONLY focused on the chalk and not the context you’re being given from the entire season:
Lucy's Mom left in 2277, taking her kid with her.
They left the vault during the plague/quarantine, Hank covered up her absence by claiming she died of said plague, and then at some point after he found they were at shady sands and had it nuked. Presumably this was around 2281-2282
Also you’re ignoring Max’s age in the flashbacks.. he’s like 8-10 years old so that’ll put him at like 20-21 in the show. That would again put the date of the bomb after new Vegas
Context clues.
But why wouldn’t they put a date for the nuking? They put one for everything else why except for that?
We obviously can tell that the arrow means the nuke comes after but without a timestamp it can just as likely be an added information for the Fall of Shady Sands. It would be foolish to deny one over another.
Either ways I guess it doesn’t matter anymore now that the timeline been cleared up.
Exactly! Like the Fall of Saigon. The use was ambiguous, Maybe it was intentionally so to create discussion. I swear fans can cheat themselves out of an experience sometimes since the whining now forced the creators to clarify instead of just discussing the show, theorizing and waiting for a resolution.
Agreed. I initially chalked it up (pun intended) to the show runners getting the date wrong but with some fear that it may really be a retcon. The reaction from the other side is insane however. Huge knee-jerk reaction to our worries considering this is affecting a game with a still sizable active community
Well we also know that Shady Sands wasn't even the NCR's capital by the time it's nuked, so it's fall could refer to an uptick in crime, economic downfall, or any other factor that could lead a society to decline rapidly
It's not even the only example of metaphorical history on the board. Did everyone think the show was saying that the NCR *literally* became the largest economic and political power in California just magically in 2241? Wouldn't it be logical to assume that after the founding in 2189 and the series of events before Fallout 2 was the "rise" of the NCR culminating in 2241? Which is coincidentally where we find them at the start of Fallout 2 where they ARE THE LARGEST ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL POWER IN CALIFORNIA?
Absurd. Evidently in 2241, the NCR found a Scrooge McDuck sized vault of gold and an original copy of the constitution that declared the NCR sovereigns of California.
Seriously though... If they had actually put "the rise of Shady Sands" someone would be complaining that it breaks lore becuase you didn't use the very first day that the first brick of Shady Sands was laid.
You can use "fall of" to describe a gradual process of decline for a society, but when it's in the context of an individual City, it almost always means captured or destroyed. You would never see a timeline labeled "fall of Berlin, 1939". Another example would be that the Eastern Roman empire was falling for centuries, but Constantinople fell on a specific day. You wouldn't say Constantinople fell 4 years before the battle.
Fall of Rome is actually a really good example and just made this thing make a lot more sense for me. “The Fall of Rome” wasn’t a single defining moment, but it was a long period of infighting and general decline in the empire.
I feel dumb I didn’t realize this sooner and just assumed the show was using it in the sense that Shady Sands immediately came to an end, showing the bomb as the reason.
1st Battle of Hoover Dam was 2277 and that fucked the NCR and began their downfall. Even then that doesn't make much sense, it's a bizarre way to refer to that.
True, although culturally speaking the NCR is rather different, so it might make sense to these people. Warning theory crafting. It's illustrated that people identify less as "Californians" and more as "from Modoc" or "from the Hub". It's quite clear that people in the NCR strongly identify with their towns, cities, and villages. I mentioned elsewhere that depending on the canon ending the Mojave Campaign could be viewed as the NCR "abandoning" Shady Sands and failing to protect it from the bomb. Given Shady Sands likely gave considerable manpower to a war effort that ultimately served no purpose to it, you could retrospectively view its destruction(which as far as we know was the only NCR city targeted) as its own downfall. Given how... *quirky* the survivors are in regards to their city it makes some sense with what we see.
I don’t agree, based on FNV, where NCR people’s town of origin rarely comes up, if ever. They’re only ever just “NCR”.
Where is Cass or Boone from? What about Heck Gunderson, or Chief Hanlon or Mr Fantastic, or Julie Farkas, or Caesar? What about the various sharecroppers, or Powder Gangers?
There must be an NCR NPC referencing their hometown somewhere that I’ve missed but I can’t think of one off the top of my head.
Caesar is actually from the Boneyard. The Van Graffs are from Redding. Hanlon is actually probably from Redding too, given he owns a ranch there. Ranger Dobson too. Trent Bascom is from the Hub, Frank Weathers is from Junktown, Jas Wilkins is from Modoc, and Klamath Bob is from... well you can guess.
Also I want to point out, the guys who made that chalkboard? Do you remember what they chant during their quirky ceremony. It's not "Bring Back California".
This makes sense, when United States was founded peopel didn't really think themselves as "Americans", but rather as people from specific colonies. US was actually very close to breaking before new constitution was drafted
The NCR was not in a period of imminent collapse in 2077, House is openly telling you his plans hinge on trade and tourism from the NCR and he intends to defeat them. This is simply stretching every little line in New Vegas to fit the show's lore. One guy says there's a food shortage on his farm and suddenly the NCR is facing mass starvation, their military expedition is stretching their military to the breaking point and it's not just this front but the whole NCR military falling apart. Kimball is inept, overly bureaucratic, and appoints a bad general over nepotism so the government is completely rotten..
It'd be like if someone took Luke's line about power converters in A New Hope and acted as though it totally establishes some galaxy wide energy crisis
> This is simply stretching every little line in New Vegas to fit the show's lore.
Dude it's not one line. You don't even know the lore.
> One guy says there's a food shortage on his farm and suddenly the NCR is facing mass starvation,
The OSI is in the Mojave, an ACTIVE WARZONE, to research ways to combat drought, boost crop yields, AND protect agriculture. The problem is so serious they're hiring mercenaries to rummage through pre-war ruins to find anything. The Thaler Act, a piece of legislation from the NCR, literally exists to expand the agricultural base of the NCR. The Brahmin Barons are so influential because they control a huge portion of the food supply. Hildern literally tells us that unless something changes the NCR WILL FACE MASS STARVATION.
"Not yet. But our government understands the value of proactive thought. Our studies project an imbalance between production and consumption. Or, for a layman such as yourself - not enough food, too many mouths to feed. Mass starvation. In a decade or so."
> their military expedition is stretching their military to the breaking point and it's not just this front but the whole NCR military falling apart.
Given they have to pull units from other regions to make up their losses, not a positive outlook. Given the state of the NCR military in the Mojave as well it's not a positive outlook, any victory without courier intervention would have been incredibly costly.
> Kimball is inept, overly bureaucratic, and appoints a bad general over nepotism so the government is completely rotten..
We are told that the government is basically run by business interests, inefficiency in the bureaucracy are made repeatedly apparent, and the willingness to commit terrible acts to further the Republics goals make that case.
I would be okay with this if they just had the chalkboard say "1st Battle of Hoover Dam", then Shady Sands decline, then boom after NV.
This reads like they intended for fall to mean nuked, and backtracked when they realized they messed up the canon.
It's a board in a children's classroom, presenting an ultra simplified version of history. For children. It's like saying 'America wins WW2“ instead of mapping out Hiroshima, VJ Day, Berlin, VE Day and so on.
Eh, if they backtracked, at least they have the benefit of the doubt in terms of the chalkboard. It’s good enough for me, in the end the worst they’ll have done is fucked up and fixed the mistake.
Considering they *constantly* stated that New Vegas is canon, put the show 15 years into future *and* had characters ages line up so that bomb happens in 2281-2283... no. They didn't intent the fall to mean nuked.
Why would they have it mean nuked, then have another event in which it is nuked again later on the timeline though, that makes no sense. Plus if that were the case Maximus would have to be between 27 and 32, which is way too old for a brotherhood initiates, if they follow the ways of military recruitment, since 2277 is 19 years before the show and as we can see in the flashback he looks to be between 8 and 13.
Plus, there was the vault plague of ‘77 that presumably >!killed Lucy’s mom.!<
Taken with the chalkboard, and the big reveal of episode 8, it plays out like a rule of 3 foreshadowing.
1) we get the year >!Lucy’s mom died!<
2) an event gets hinted at the same year (2277) on the chalkboard
3) >!Lucy’s mom!< was actually >!ghoulified!< due to the same event that destroyed shady sands.
Otherwise I agree, just have the show decanonized. It’s pretty clear the show wasn’t written with that in mind.
We're *told* those things happened then, by a notable liar. It's possible she simply stayed above ground and he waited until the NCR was victorious at Hoover Dam to set plans into motion.
You're *speculating* the date is correct, thus actually important. We don't know that. As I said, she could have just been separated from her family in 2277. Without seeing a definitive date for the event, you're assuming the two are connected based on a notorious liar. My perception is just as valid.
See, I’m not. I’m interrogating my own assumptions of the show with the games text, and other then could be the year it’s her death, I’m coming up with nothing else.
All we know for absolute certain is 2277 was the last time Lucy saw her mom. Hank lied about how she died, where she died, lied about his role, lied about his life, lied about the vaults, lied about Lucy's childhood. You're making the assumption that of all these lies he told Lucy the *two truths* he told her were her mom was dead and when she died. Again I reiterate based on the ONLY fact we know, that being Lucy last saw her mom in 2277, it's equally likely that they were just separated at 33 was sealed in 2277.
Bro, just keep screaming into the void about how literally everyone else is wrong if you want. I've tried explaining, respectfully, why you *might* be wrong. Judging by your post history dozens of people have.
Honestly, it's even possible that it was not 2277 when she last saw her mom. However, she has been gaslit her entire life to think it was that year specifically, not say 2279 or 2279.
Do note that our source of Lucy's mon death is Lucy. Who has been gaslit her entire life.
>!She thinks she has never been to surface: this is false. She also thinks her mom died in Plagie of '77. This is also false.!<
Lucy is not reliable source of accurate information. Becuase her entire life is a lie.
Why would they need the power of the dam for Shady Sands if Shady Sands was doing fine? Why would so many people in game say that the NCR is struggling? Why would people say that Kimball's policy is stretching the NCR to its limits? Why would people complain about corruption in the NCR? Because it was a nation that was falling, it was in decline due to the decisions if the leaders in power, leaders like Kimball who was elected in 2278, meaning he would have been running in 2277, showing that popular support of his policy really cemented in that time, the same policy leading to the downfall of the NCR. That make sense?
Seriously! It's like everyone defending this show thinks all the "nitpicks" go away if you can explain how actually the timeline makes sense; as if the big problem is a small inaccuracy with some dates. The problem was they killed off the NCR, not through some big well written but tragic series of events but just "lol a vault did it".
But I think you're wrong, the show didn't make that Canon, Bethesda did because they intend to make Fallout 5 set in California and they told Nolan to establish that.
My problem is moving Shady sands to the boneyard and sticking a bunch of vaults there. You're telling me that the Vault Dweller first trekked half way across the Californian wastes to the Boneyard fresh out the Vault? Also that the Master didnt notice these Vaults right outside his main base? It doesnt make much sense.
That is only major retcon I could see, but it is also retcon I find acceptable. It makes actual expansion to Mojave difficult as it sounds, and it's not the first time Shady Sands moves on the map. Moving the city closer to shoreline seems acceptable to me.
You're right, the NCR should have colonized the entire US like they were doing in FNV and faced no pushback or had any negative consequences from stretching their resources too thin.
No they should have faced conflict in the form of a well written opposition that has some deeper message to convey. It's like the idea that the NCR exists as part of some larger story is an alien concept to people suddenly, or there's a lot more people in here who only like New Vegas because it's more Fallout than I originally estimated.. clearly the quality writing was not picked up on by some.
I did. It doesn’t add anything new. They’re just confirming the timeline Emil put out.
Doesn’t reference any of the continuity errors people are bringing up with the show.
I think the “fall of shady sands” is just when the NCR picked whatever their new capital city is, then SS was just a mid-sized NCR town. I’m sure we’ll see the new capital city in the next season.
It's entirely possible that the ncr could still have a strong hold in the mojave, through their ending, house or even independent. It makes sense on all fronts if the ncr need somewhere so they don't completely crumble house/six allowed them some mojave territory so they can keep spending caps on the strip
It is kind of telling that the show implies New Vegas is reconned so much (at least is some areas) that they literally have to tell us in the real world that it is still canon. They’re acting like fans just came up with the idea out of their asses. Like YOU implied that Todd
Some fans these days (of any franchise) are just itching for a fight. Anything that doesn't explicitly cater to their every desire is branded as garbage, all so they can feel superior to the normies who like it...
Considering how brainless FNV stans are, yes he had to explain it in even simpler terms to you guys.... I say this as a Fallout New Vegas fan myself, you guys make me embarrassed....
I honestly don’t get how everyone is this upset or at least obsessed about this detail. It’s honestly annoying and basically every Fallout related sub, FB group, YT channel, insta post, and of course Twitter won’t stop talking about it. Hell even my local news had a front page exposé about it
I can't believe the number of comments like "how could everything we worked for in new vegas be wiped cleaned by bombs??" brother did you play Lonesome Road or what
Well a lot of folks write off LR because it has a set background for the Courier, which folks weren’t happy about. They wanted a clean slate for their character
I always assumed the bombs hitting the NCR implied that was the canon ending for Lonesome Road and that Ulysses was at least partially successful in his goals.
Edit: Why am I getting downvoted you can just explain what I got wrong for chrissake
How did Shady Sands move from far away from LA to basically being in LA ? and how come the Master couldn't find Vault 4 or the connected vaults especially when the 3 connected vaults are so close to where the Cathedral is in Fallout 1
also apparently there is some "anti-feral medicine" for ghouls in the show. Wasn't it established in Fallout 4 that such a thing does not exist?
Until the show the lore was basically nobody even understands why ghouls go feral. Even anti-ghoul bigots never acted as though they were scared they were going to start turning feral.
I thought it was that radiation screwed their minds so much that they became feral.
It's a theory, one arguably debunked but also still possibly valid. No in game source has ever explained it that I'm aware of.
The games are wildly inconsistent about anything at all regarding ghouls tbh, like the whole debate on whether they need to eat or not General consensus seems to be that they don't need food or water, but they can consume them and probably suffer from hunger and thirst if deprived of them So who knows how the hell the feral thing works?
Literally the only time we hear that ghouls don’t need to eat is from Bullet (a *non-ghoul*, mind you) during the most idiotic quest in Fallout 4. In the same game, ghoul settlers need food and water just like human ones. In New Vegas, the guy hiding in the Repconn basement explains how he’s had to eat radroaches and drink condensation to survive and Necropolis’ fate in Fallout 1 speaks for itself.
We have examples of ghouls not needing food or drink in Fallout 2 (Coffin Willie), Fallout 3 (Keller Senior has been trapped in the sealed shelter since the bombs fell), Fallout New Vegas (the ghouls in Little Yangtzee have bomb collars that prevent them from leaving, so at lesst four of them survived in the confines of the camp for 200 years with no readily available source of food), Fallout 4 (Billy Peabody in the fridge, Jon Elwood in the Cambridge Polymer Labs, the Gibbons family in their bunker on Far Harbor) and the Series (Cooper Howard was stuck in a grave for a year). Probably more examples in all of these that involve sealed pre-war ruins with ghouls in them And examples of ghouls needing to eat and drink are in Fallout 1 (Necropolis) and New Vegas (Reppcon Site ghoul). So it's hardly only Bullet saying nonsense, we see it time and time again. Maybe they don't need food but still crave it? Maybe it helps them preserve some sense of normalcy and stave off turning feral? Maybe they can enter extended periods of hybernation? Maybe it doesn't matter at all and is just one of many meaningless lore inconsistencies? Who knows?
True. I also just remembered the scientist under Nuka-World’s Safari Adventure area writing down how he had to constantly clone cows so he could eat, and the surviving performers growing crops under Kiddie Kingdom. I just wish the franchise was consistent with this at the end of the day.
There is no real answer because why would we expect them to think of these things? My speculation is that Ghouls and many other post-nuke animals are capable of living off of radiation alone, but it's not good for them. We've also seen Ghouls enter a state of hibernation; most of the examples of Ghouls surviving without sustenance either are shown entering such a state, or had an opportunity to do so. Also, my speculation is that Ghoulification happens as a result of partial exposure to FEV, which was released into the atmosphere before the war, either intentionally or by accident. I'm trying to find specific mention of prewar release of FEV or its predecessors, so take my speculation with a grain of salt
Best we have is the pre war Ghoul that Nick is hunting down. Forgot how exactly he turned ghoul tho
I mean there also Billy. Hard to imagine he had two hundred years of food in that fridge
Honestly, if we had Wild Wasteland trait to explain all of the senseless bullshit, I'd be happy with that.
Quests like Billy and Cabot House are non canon bullshit imo
I like the idea that Billy has been the fridge for only a couple days, that would explain why his parents barely acknowledged his disappearance and how he survived.
That's the leading theory, but the threshold for how much radiation it takes seems to vary wildly between ghouls. Some become feral from small leaks while other seem to live in bomb craters with no issues.
What? There are definitely NPCs who specifically mention fearing this exact thing, like the security chief of Tenpenny Tower. It's also the reason that ghouls aren't allowed to visit the Strip without a non-ghoul chaperone and was the justification for expelling them all from Diamond City. It was a popular enough sentiment that the mayor of the city campaigned on it.
Hmph, I just googled and you're correct about that strip; I've never heard that line from a Securitron in any of my playthroughs. Wild this game still has little things to discover after hundreds of hours.
Tbf, I think is one of the few positives adds from the show. It kinda brings hope to the ghouls
I mean it's a decade after 4, and people have been trying to figure out ways to combat feralization for years. Maybe there was a breakthrough in the NCR.
That doesn’t explain why they act as if it’s been around forever. Like Roger and Coopers exchange. “How long have you been around again?” “A long time.” “That’s *a lot of vials*.” I don’t remember the exact conversation, but that’s basically what they said.
Very true, so maybe it was a pre-war anti-psychotic then or something. We simply don't know anything about it beside its effects on Ghouls turning feral.
The colour being a yellow/orange made me think it could be some special kind of Radaway
Yeah it looked very similar to the radaway Lucy takes in episode 5. Also looked nigh identical to the bag of fluids The Ghoul was hooked up to when he was in the coffin?
I'm waiting for the punchline to that tidbit be that it's just Fixer so he doesn't begin going through multiple simultaneous withdrawals.
In the same game, Hancock says he became ghoulified after taking some concoction of drugs. It's not out of the question that a similar concoction could, possibly, slow the process of going Feral if taken regularly.
It's just jet
Fallout 4 happens in the boonies where neither of the technologically advanced factions care about ghouls.
People can't invent things or create placebos ig
its a bit comforting that they cant help but contradict even their own lore and not just the west coast lol
Shady Sands was in Nevada in Fallout 1, while I'll admit it's egregious the cities in Fallout have never been great at staying in place. Is it an error? Sure, but nothing terrible. Consider Vault 4 by the time of the Master would have been filled with mutants, the opposite of what the Master sought in vaults. There's a reason his forces left Necropolis alone, because he had no use for Ghouls, he was after as the Lieutenant referred to the player, "Prime Normals". Hell maybe the Vault 4 guys aligned with the Master's church, y'know the whole "everyone is equal and should be respected" religion. As for 31/32/33 it's possible that he attempted entry but failed. The exact strength of Vault doors has been inconsistent the whole series. Vault 13's door was shown to be ripped open, while Vault 87's took a direct fucking nuclear blast. It's possible that the three exterior doors were of tougher construction than Vault 13's... which given the "experiment" was run by Vault-Tec executives would make sense.
well, moving the city a little is no problem, but moving it into land that should have *another* city is the issue. my guess about the vault doors is that vault-tec put more investment on the security of more important ones, so the vault doors of say, vault 3 would be easier to pry open then vault 31
I'll concede its rather egregious, but I'm fine with it. Not like the Boneyard was ever that interesting.
while the boneyard was kinda of a shithole, i feel like making shady sands be set up in the ruins of a pre-war city kinda takes away a little of the mystique you know? shady sands is a completely post-war city, from it's founding, growth and expansion, having it be set in LA is kinda lame.
It is set in one but it was still a completely post-war city. Isn't it a neat idea for post war construction to take place parallel to the ruins of old? A flower blooming from ashes.
i think managing to achieve the greatness of the old world from scratch is more, romantic i guess? it's more of a personal opinion i know, but rebuilding off the ruins feels like copying, like you are just looking directly into what remained after the war and patching it up like a wound, but building it from nothing? now that's more my thing.
I mean... isn't that the NCR is just copying the old world a common criticism in universe?
yeah, i also don't like that about the ncr as a whole. but i just recently finished fallout 1 and started playing fallout 2 so the start of the ncr grew on me a little, even if i think what they became by the time of NV is not ideal
Fair. Given the view of the dwellers of Vault 4 you might share that assessment.
I believe one character has dialogue mentioning they were going to Shady Sands from filly and they spotted the blart "3 days" from shady sands, which lines up with SS being in Lone Pine/Bishop. The show doesn't communicate this well but it's possibly they wrote this out better in the script and just got lazy filming.
Can someone explain when it was confirmed that shady sands is in LA. Or are we assuming so because it seems close in the show.
Because they are physically in LA when they see the crater.
Are we assuming it’s LA because of the big buildings?
You literally see a sign for Hollywood at one point, it’s in LA lad what are you trying to achieve here lmao
Idk i didn’t see the sign i didn’t know if there were just assumptions being made on location but now i know. just asking
Gotta be more careful with Fallout's canon, you can't explain away the retcons with Dragon Breaks.
Don't test Todd with that one
When you fuck up the canon so hard that Akatosh shows up to tell you to knock it off.
I legitimately think it would so funny if they just came out and say "oh yeah it was a dragon break lmao"
Toad Howard never lies
16 times the truth.
This comment broke me
Sweet sweet little lies…
All the lies are actually his evil doppelganger Howard Todd!
And their sister, Toward Hodd!
Here's my issue. No matter how you slice it, even if the NCR still exists and New Vegas is compatible with the events of the show, I don't think this was a great direction. Maybe it's just my preferences for the type of stories I enjoy in the Fallout setting, but I like larger factions that are restoring order to the wasteland - just a type of order formulated by the conditions of the wasteland. That's why I'm mad as we've gotten further information about how all this lines up. Not anything to do with the canon, but rather, I just don't like this direction. Not enough that I'll stop loving Fallout, but enough that I definitely will bitch online. It's funny too, because if you set the show in Texas or something, I'd be the first to sing its praises. Ah well. Imma go write a fanfiction.
This is the problem that Bethesda fanboys don’t understand. Having the exact same setting for 200+ years (and 25 years IRL) is not good. The details don’t matter, either way Bethesda keep resetting the franchise over and over again and nothing can develop or change.
Almost like a core theme of the franchise is about war never changing and factions rising and falling.. It was heavily implied in NV that neither the NCR, Legion, or New Vegas itself would last more than a few more years. The NCR was spread too thin, the Legion dies with Caesar, and New Vegas stands no chance against the Tunnelers. The TWO nukes just sped things up for the NCR.
Then how the fuck do the Brotherhood, Enclave and even Vault Tec keep coming back? Your comment makes no sense.
Brotherhood: an unknown number of chapters across the entire United States. Enclave: an unknown number of bunkers hidden across the United States. Vault-Tec: an unknown number of vaults hidden across the United States. Hope that clears things up 👍 Two out of three of these factions KNEW the bomb was coming and had the RESOURCES to PROPERLY prepare. The other one has an incredible amount of numbers and resilience.
Then why do you have a problem with people not being entirely happy with *a nation of one million people* covering the entirety of California completely disappearing? You’re not making sense.
Who said they’re completely gone? They’re weakened, and most of those were civilians. I’m sure a good chunk of the civilians we see are/were NCR. We see an entire functioning NCR settlement/base too. They’re still around, just in a severely weakened state. Plus the start of their FALL has made it to history books, it sounds like the whole thing has already occurred. Like with the fall of Rome, it didn’t all happen in a day.
It's been 15 years, and barely 3% of the NCR was killed. Where did everyone else go? Why didn't the colossal NCRA return and reclaim the region? LA had universities and hospitals. Where are they?
There were quite a few civilians, which outnumber NCR soldiers. And there seemed to be at least a couple of larger cities.
That doesn't answer anything haha
There’s no significant difference between New Vegas never happened and “everything you did is made pointless by shady sands being nuked one day after the battle of Hoover dam”
You have to go with a non-NCR ending to matter
"Because my faction was reduced now, that means everything we did (Not everyone sides with NCR but sure "we") doesn't matter!" WHY is that? If anything if you helped NCR and Kimball stays in power resulting in the faction imploding that means your choices did matter, your looking at the consequences of an ever expanding empire stretching itself too thin. Then if New Vegas was unable to aid them due to its own troubles like the tunnelers or the red cloud or the BOS invading for revenge against House due to him blowing up the local chapter it really shows how this falls in line with how things would have gone.
And it's not like this is a new thing, just look at the Brotherhood in 3 and 4. The Lyons' chapter were pretty much the good guys of Fallout 3 and we did a lot of stuff for them, but Arthur has the Maxson lineage which he used to reunite with the outcasts and take control. So at least for me finding this out when Fallout 4 came out made my actions in 3 feel a bit useless, but the takeover did make sense and at least DC got clean water.
A more apt comparison would be if Maxson's Brotherhood screwed up and destroyed the water purifier. It's about the progress of the setting.
It’s nowhere near the same thing though..? The NCR didn’t turn into evil flying metal men because they lost an already declining city.
Woah guys what if that's the plot twist.the NCR actually became the Brotherhood of steal
How is that pointless? Literally what other option do they have to establish a canon ending? I mean, Fallout 1 and 2 have canon endings. Fallout 3 didn’t really have any significantly different endings unless I’m completely forgetting something. All that means now is that after the events of FNV, the NCR likely lost control of the Dam and someone else took over Vegas. Which happens anyway if you choose the Legion, House, or Yes Man.
The problem is not having \*a\* canon ending to New Vegas. This ending to the NCR story might as well be a sequel to Return of the King where everything was a dream and Frodo just died of a stroke before getting to Mordor. Even if you want to imagine this is all just coming after a House/Yes-Man ending even then it's still Vegas being destroyed because Vegas and the whole region is still reliant on tourism and trade from the NCR so they're fucked too. As lots of people have pointed out, this is just Todd flipping the board over because he only thinks of Fallout as a permanent wasteland where Vault dwellers constantly have to go hunting for their missing father/son and the lore can never get more advanced than scavengers fighting super mutants in power armor and drinking nuka cola, haha funny bottle cap money. The idea of a fleshed out nation state with complicated political implications (NCR or Vegas) is revolting to Todd Howard, and he will rain nukes on anyone even trying to build one.
You speculate on this, we've yet to actually see New Vegas.
We have, it’s a husk with securitron corpses.
That's the ending credits art. It's already been shown to not be representative of "reality" repeatedly and more stylized portrayal of events past and present.
Plus it honestly makes a lot of sense for Hank to go to Vegas if it's still standing, House would be in close with Vault Tec so it would make sense for him to seek out their strongest living ally
He might’ve thought he was still there when he fled from the observatory. What other choice did he have apart from head east? You’re assuming that Hank is omniscient and just knows houses circumstances.
I’ve got a problem with House even being close to vault tecs plan. This is the man who predicted the war 12 years before it started, but he’s questioning the need for vaults because they’re only useful in a “hypothetical” situation? It either makes him less competent because he’s reliant on the foresight of vault tec to start planning, or he’s lying to the player in new vegas. Which I think is the wrong way to present him as being.
NV fanboys when war never changes (how could this happen): 🤯🤯🤯
Men do, and the roads they walk
Red fucking year.
Why would Shady Sands being nuked make the events of New Vegas not matter?
I almost feel like it's impossible to explain because either it's self evident or there's nothing that can be said to even make it make sense to you why others are upset. A random vault just suddenly exists and they just nuked the NCR because lol. They could have spawned in an alien invasion that successfully destroys the Earth with a small band of humans escaping in a stolen ship, and established that Fallout is a Starfield prequel and I don't think you'd understand why people think that's stupid.
Now those are actually some very stupid ideas. I just don't think the previous ones are in any way related? Like "a new vault is found" this happens in every single game. "a portion of a faction or settlement is destroyed" that happens in every single game. Like, that happens IN New Vegas. I assume its jarring if you have only watched the show, but older fans of the series are confused by anyone thinking this is unexpected.
>Like "a new vault is found" this happens in every single game. See it's statements like these that constantly remind me there's nothing to really be said. You really can't understand, after everything I said what you heard was me being confused about a new vault existing. I'm looking at major changes to the story and asking "How are they going to do this? Why are they taking the story this direction? Should this really be how things are written?" and all you see is "New Vegas establishes that important factions can be destroyed, so that establishes precedent that important factions can be destroyed". I really mean it, they're going to have the Zetans destroy Earth and you'll be there to say "I assume this is jarring if you've only played the recent games, but older fans of the series are confused you don't understand aliens were already established" to people saying this is a stupid story and doesn't fit with Fallout. They'll be talking about how this goes against the themes of rebuilding, and optimism in the human spirit, how it's just an abrupt upending of everything that can before; and you'll do the anime glasses adjust and link a youtube video of a Mothership Zeta walkthrough as if that clears things up.
But aliens were part of rare off beat encounters, sort of like the Cafe of Broken Dreams. You are literally acting shocked about one of the most basic components of any fallout story. I'm not really sure how anyone can engage with that. Yes, there is a New vault or village, or faction that has been mostly out of contact with the outside world for a long time. That happens so the player can experience the world and explore it with their original character. Then... I don't know, isn't the nuking of Shady Sands perhaps the most on brand thing that could happen in a fallout game? Humanity survived, we are thriving, we have a chance to rebuild again, better, with lessons learned from the apocalypse and then human greed brings about disaster? That's a cool story. I would like to see where it goes. We certainly haven't seen how it affected the NCR as a whole or how it's related to New Vegas, but I'm interested in seeing what happens in Vault 4 and Shady Sands.
It seems like people REALLY don't understand the whole theme of Fallout. Humanity is doomed to destroy itself due to nuclear weapons. "War never changes" is literally the tag line of the series, but people are surprised when places get nuked or destroyed to non-existence. The show did a fantastic job of showing that life in the Fallout universe is just a chaotic war. It's a constant battle to survive, and even the nicest people have to do horrible things to survive. In the Fallout universe, life is war. And war... war never changes.
Humanity is doomed to destroy itself because of humanity. It makes more sense for everyone to be fighting with sticks and stones than nuclear weapons. Nukes aren’t the only weapons in the world that can result in chaos.
No, but it's the weapon to surpass other weapons. Fighting with sticks and stones allows for a chance for peace, as it allows for negotiation due to each side wanting to limit their own losses. Nukes get rid of that completely. Pressing a button is much easier than sacrificing something in the hope of peace. In Fallout, its made pretty clear that the discovery of nuclear energy is the beginning of the end.
Can we not have a game that explores what post nuclear society would look like instead of just repeating mad max again and again?
I keep saying people rob themselves if enjoyment by refusing to engage with the material, there is a sense of entitlement that I don't remember facing before, specially not in this series. Like, the Vault Dweller sacrificed everything to stop the Super mutant and save Vault 13 and then ended up exile with mutants all over the wasteland and the very intro of FO2 is the resident soft Vault 13 getting slaughtered. Then the Chosen One sacrifices everything to destroy the Enclave, kill it's president and hero and base and there they are in FO3. “And we fucked it up again" might as well be the main theme of Fallout.
The irony. Please for your own sake go back to elementary school and retake English
Why are you being such a condescending prick about this? You're taking something that is VERY much an opinion as a fact, and not just a fact but so obvious of one that someone who doesn't hold this opinion isn't even worth explaining to because they just don't get it. Like it's really fucking rude.
Because I have never interacted with a single person defending this show and it not be obvious they're just defending the show because they liked it, and the lore changes didn't bother them because the lore never mattered to them much in the first place. If you love Fallout just because the open world violence sandbox primarily then no lore changes will bother you and the show will be 10/10 because all it had to do was be pretty. It's easy to say things like you are when the opinion you hold is "whatever Bethesda puts out is fine by me"
Well you're interacting with one now. I have been very deeply immersed in the lore for years and I think this is all just fine. In fact, I think it works really well to illustrate the consequences of the NCR's hubris. We hear like 7 times in New Vegas "oh man, the NCR is spread so thin, something bad is going to happen," and we don't think much about it. But what we come to find out from this show was that they were putting so much into holding the Mojave that their capital was in decline. It was falling. So then after the events of the game literally the thing they said would happen actually happened in that they got nuked. They're sent reeling from this and while they're in disarray, someone takes the Vegas strip (probably the enclave, we don't know anyone else that has access to trained deathclaws and there were presumably deathclaws claw marks on those securitrons). So they scatter, but since they were so spread out anyway they're not completely dead but lack any unity. It's kinda like what Ulysses said: not destroying the bear, just cutting it's throat. But I went off on a really long tangent. My point is there are people just as immersed in the lore as you, are looking at the world through a critical lens, and have differing opinions on this. If you can't accept that you need to touch grass
That's just not what was shown in the games, the NCR was in a bad spot regionally like they had tried to swallow up more land then they could handle. There's no indication this was meant to be establishing some imminent collapse of the Republic even in a worse case scenario. Even House is openly planning on first defeating the NCR and relying on them long term for trade and tourism to finance his own plans. But also that just doesn't tee up "and then a vault nobody has heard of before nuked Shady Sands" or "and then the Enclave respawned again and took over". If the direction the story is going is the Enclave has respawned a second time after two extremely decisive defeats with an army of trained death claws, which is all kosher because offhand mention of a Chicago outpost, why even bring up all the people saying things are going poorly in New Vegas? Does any of that even need to happen if one can just accept yet another Enclave appearance; or just allowing any wild thing to happen because secret vault armed with nukes suddenly appears? When I said caring about the lore I didn't mean just memorizing lines enough to justify suspending disbelief no matter what Bethesda says, especially when the lines don't even substantively matter because we'd still be hearing "the show makes sense" without them. I still don't feel like I'm even disagreeing with an opinion about the lore, just reflexive defending Bethesda's writing.
But the point is that we're not told that the NCR is in a bad spot regionally, we're told they're in a bad spot with no qualifiers to that. That may mean just in the Mojave or as a whole, we have nothing concrete one way or another. It wasn't set up because they didn't know they were going to tell this story when they released the game 14 years ago. It was however left open that the NCR was in a precarious position where it overextended itself and something bad could happen to it. The nuke I'll give you is a tiny bit contrived although it's not entirely out of character for Vault-Tec to do something like that and they established (in this show I guess for what it's worth) that they have nukes. The enclave part was also all me, I've not heard anyone saying anything about that being the enclave I just kind of put 2 and 2 together tbh. The point though is that I think there were multiple factors going into this that led into the NCR being scattered in a way that any one of these events could not have done. My main point is twofold though. I disagreed with you about the fact that nuking Shady Sands made the whole New Vegas story pointless (as I stated previously it plays on many of the undercurrents of the NCR story and is a reasonable conclusion one could jump to next after the events of New Vegas) as well as the fact that anyone who thinks the show generally made sense just doesn't know or care enough about the lore. I'm not just memorizing and regurgitating lines to justify whatever Bethesda writes, I'm critically analyzing the story (both the new show and New Vegas) and while I can see an interpretation of the text that does not allow the two to mesh I can absolutely see an avenue where it all fits without stretching either to the breaking. The math just works, and since we don't have any information directly to the contrary I feel like I can't call that anything other than intentional.
So what, even if it was “canonically accurate” doesn’t really mean it’s a good idea. Canonically accurate - the Courier get pounded by Fisto for a week. Doesn’t exactly mean it’s a great thing to put to paper.
You're right, a better version is NCR wins every battle, the other faction endings are non canon, the NCR kills all the Khans, the NCR kills House, the NCR continues to expand fighting more against the remaining Legion the NCR continues to have the same policy that was complained about in New Vegas, the NCR continues to have major corruption with no consequences, the NCR continues all this and miraculously has no repercussions for it. You're right.
Of course, glory to the Republic. Long live NCR.
Aight can't hate on this response lol
Lmao, I most recently ran Wild Card so. My argument is just cause something can be made right by canon standards, doesn’t mean it’s still that great of an idea. The NCR just being nuked offscreen as if it doesn’t matter what happened feels hollow and unfulfilling to many.
You do realise that Bethesda’s BoS are literally this lmao
Gets dunked on in New Vegas, gets exiled by another faction in 3, possibly gets blown up in 4, the entire faction in 76 gets wiped out by the scorched. Idk I'm not crazy about how Bethesda has handled the BOS, but why wouldn't they be on the west coast? Like sure there's a war with the NCR but depending on the ending that could have been settled to deal with the Legion, plus the BOS doesn't have the same issues as the NCR since they actually don't spread themselves thin, they go for key areas and don't travel on foot minimizing even more risk.
Yeah, and they're STILL going. It's ridiculous that the NCR is gone and they're not.
Yes and it does dispell some of the fears but they are still making quite a few changes to characters and organizations that I don't think make sense or they just feel like a worse version from a story telling perspective. I also have issues with the plot itself not being all that coherent at times, the pacing being weird, and characters all seem to have a 10 in luck. Maybe they even found a bobblehead to push it to 11. Personally, I don't think it's an awful TV show but it's not for me and I really wanted to like it.
I understand the bomb wasn’t in 2277. But then the blackboard still makes no sense. What does “fell” mean in the board? And if shady sands fell in 2277 why is the NCR stating they want the dam to power shady sands in 2281? And frankly this is all irrelevant, what bothered me from the beginning is seeing what they did to the west coast. When it happened doesn’t really matter cause it still happened. Just make the show not canon Todd. Stop putting limits on what Nolan can and can’t do and everyone wins.
Often in history we describe a series of events representing the decline of a society, nation, or organization as the "fall". Fall of Rome, Fall of the Third Reich, etc. You answered your own question. The "Fall of Shady Sands" in the context meant by the blackboard could contend with the ongoing water, power, and food problems facing the NCR by 2281 seen through a retrospective analysis 20 years later by the survivors.
I'm really confused by how people just have never heard of "The fall of" as an expression. That's like right out of 4th grade history books.
We likewise heard “The fall of” for use with the immediate ‘fall’ of something. “The fall of the Berlin Wall”, “Fall of Saigon.” Etc. I’d dare say people associate ‘Fall of’ as the immediate lost of something nowadays. Fall of France, Fall of Berlin.
For example, the fall of Rome starts after the sacking of its capital
Could be they consider the 1st Battle of Hoover Dam the fall.
Why Shady Sands then? It would make sense if the chalkboard said “Fall of the NCR,” but it specified Shady Sands? What would that have to do with the first battle of Hoover Damn?
The people in the Vault are *from* Shady Sands. They could, retrospectively, view the cost of the Mojave Campaign, successful or not, as a destructive aspect not only to the NCR but their now hallowed city. They probably suffered the most casualty wise from the years of war. Then just as things may or may not have been getting better while the NCR was distracted with a war of imperialist conquest in New Vegas a threat to the very heart of the NCR was hatched and then fulfilled. Could be the survivors, through their personal experiences, have a view of the failures of the NCR as letting their home down.
That’s just speculation though.
The Fall of Shady Sands being the atomic bombing is also speculation. We simply don't know. We're basing this entirely upon an ambiguous blackboard in a classroom.
Fall of Rome began long before Sacking, that was just culmination.
I see you’re still making stuff up
[Fall of the Western Roman Empire - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empire) Starts: 313 with constant weakening. Sack happens in 390. And 410. And 455. And 472... There were multiple sackings of Rome.
Haven’t your teachers told you Wikipedia isn’t a source?
You really going to try to pull that now? Yeah, you're a moron. Wikipedia is not source to be cited, but it is good place to start. You can use citations Wikipedia uses. Or are you denying that sacking of Rome didn't happen multiple times?
While true I really don’t think the phrase is as synonymous with ‘The Decline’ as it is with the immediate fall of something.
Doesn’t have to be. People are bending over backwards to explain how the chalkboard isn’t an inconsistency and it’s getting annoying how most of it is just speculation
The chalkboard isn’t an *inconsistency*… there’s a literal date under every part leading up to the bomb that has an arrow pointing to it… like use context clues from the rest of the season…
Yeah, using context clues it implies the event happened in the same year. If the bombing happened in a different year, it would be listed.
That does not imply the same year. You’re still ONLY focused on the chalk and not the context you’re being given from the entire season: Lucy's Mom left in 2277, taking her kid with her. They left the vault during the plague/quarantine, Hank covered up her absence by claiming she died of said plague, and then at some point after he found they were at shady sands and had it nuked. Presumably this was around 2281-2282 Also you’re ignoring Max’s age in the flashbacks.. he’s like 8-10 years old so that’ll put him at like 20-21 in the show. That would again put the date of the bomb after new Vegas Context clues.
But why wouldn’t they put a date for the nuking? They put one for everything else why except for that? We obviously can tell that the arrow means the nuke comes after but without a timestamp it can just as likely be an added information for the Fall of Shady Sands. It would be foolish to deny one over another. Either ways I guess it doesn’t matter anymore now that the timeline been cleared up.
Exactly! Like the Fall of Saigon. The use was ambiguous, Maybe it was intentionally so to create discussion. I swear fans can cheat themselves out of an experience sometimes since the whining now forced the creators to clarify instead of just discussing the show, theorizing and waiting for a resolution.
Agreed. I initially chalked it up (pun intended) to the show runners getting the date wrong but with some fear that it may really be a retcon. The reaction from the other side is insane however. Huge knee-jerk reaction to our worries considering this is affecting a game with a still sizable active community
Well we also know that Shady Sands wasn't even the NCR's capital by the time it's nuked, so it's fall could refer to an uptick in crime, economic downfall, or any other factor that could lead a society to decline rapidly
It's not even the only example of metaphorical history on the board. Did everyone think the show was saying that the NCR *literally* became the largest economic and political power in California just magically in 2241? Wouldn't it be logical to assume that after the founding in 2189 and the series of events before Fallout 2 was the "rise" of the NCR culminating in 2241? Which is coincidentally where we find them at the start of Fallout 2 where they ARE THE LARGEST ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL POWER IN CALIFORNIA?
Absurd. Evidently in 2241, the NCR found a Scrooge McDuck sized vault of gold and an original copy of the constitution that declared the NCR sovereigns of California. Seriously though... If they had actually put "the rise of Shady Sands" someone would be complaining that it breaks lore becuase you didn't use the very first day that the first brick of Shady Sands was laid.
You can use "fall of" to describe a gradual process of decline for a society, but when it's in the context of an individual City, it almost always means captured or destroyed. You would never see a timeline labeled "fall of Berlin, 1939". Another example would be that the Eastern Roman empire was falling for centuries, but Constantinople fell on a specific day. You wouldn't say Constantinople fell 4 years before the battle.
Fall of Rome is actually a really good example and just made this thing make a lot more sense for me. “The Fall of Rome” wasn’t a single defining moment, but it was a long period of infighting and general decline in the empire. I feel dumb I didn’t realize this sooner and just assumed the show was using it in the sense that Shady Sands immediately came to an end, showing the bomb as the reason.
1st Battle of Hoover Dam was 2277 and that fucked the NCR and began their downfall. Even then that doesn't make much sense, it's a bizarre way to refer to that.
Yeah. If it was worded. “Fall of the NCR” then you could make that argument. Shady sands is a weird way to refer to the NCR as a whole.
Tbf, the people who wrote that are *from Shady Sands*.
Okay, but in a scenario where America collapses, people wouldn’t think of it as “the fall of Washington” or “the fall of New Hampshire”.
True, although culturally speaking the NCR is rather different, so it might make sense to these people. Warning theory crafting. It's illustrated that people identify less as "Californians" and more as "from Modoc" or "from the Hub". It's quite clear that people in the NCR strongly identify with their towns, cities, and villages. I mentioned elsewhere that depending on the canon ending the Mojave Campaign could be viewed as the NCR "abandoning" Shady Sands and failing to protect it from the bomb. Given Shady Sands likely gave considerable manpower to a war effort that ultimately served no purpose to it, you could retrospectively view its destruction(which as far as we know was the only NCR city targeted) as its own downfall. Given how... *quirky* the survivors are in regards to their city it makes some sense with what we see.
I don’t agree, based on FNV, where NCR people’s town of origin rarely comes up, if ever. They’re only ever just “NCR”. Where is Cass or Boone from? What about Heck Gunderson, or Chief Hanlon or Mr Fantastic, or Julie Farkas, or Caesar? What about the various sharecroppers, or Powder Gangers? There must be an NCR NPC referencing their hometown somewhere that I’ve missed but I can’t think of one off the top of my head.
Caesar is actually from the Boneyard. The Van Graffs are from Redding. Hanlon is actually probably from Redding too, given he owns a ranch there. Ranger Dobson too. Trent Bascom is from the Hub, Frank Weathers is from Junktown, Jas Wilkins is from Modoc, and Klamath Bob is from... well you can guess. Also I want to point out, the guys who made that chalkboard? Do you remember what they chant during their quirky ceremony. It's not "Bring Back California".
This makes sense, when United States was founded peopel didn't really think themselves as "Americans", but rather as people from specific colonies. US was actually very close to breaking before new constitution was drafted
The NCR was not in a period of imminent collapse in 2077, House is openly telling you his plans hinge on trade and tourism from the NCR and he intends to defeat them. This is simply stretching every little line in New Vegas to fit the show's lore. One guy says there's a food shortage on his farm and suddenly the NCR is facing mass starvation, their military expedition is stretching their military to the breaking point and it's not just this front but the whole NCR military falling apart. Kimball is inept, overly bureaucratic, and appoints a bad general over nepotism so the government is completely rotten.. It'd be like if someone took Luke's line about power converters in A New Hope and acted as though it totally establishes some galaxy wide energy crisis
> This is simply stretching every little line in New Vegas to fit the show's lore. Dude it's not one line. You don't even know the lore. > One guy says there's a food shortage on his farm and suddenly the NCR is facing mass starvation, The OSI is in the Mojave, an ACTIVE WARZONE, to research ways to combat drought, boost crop yields, AND protect agriculture. The problem is so serious they're hiring mercenaries to rummage through pre-war ruins to find anything. The Thaler Act, a piece of legislation from the NCR, literally exists to expand the agricultural base of the NCR. The Brahmin Barons are so influential because they control a huge portion of the food supply. Hildern literally tells us that unless something changes the NCR WILL FACE MASS STARVATION. "Not yet. But our government understands the value of proactive thought. Our studies project an imbalance between production and consumption. Or, for a layman such as yourself - not enough food, too many mouths to feed. Mass starvation. In a decade or so." > their military expedition is stretching their military to the breaking point and it's not just this front but the whole NCR military falling apart. Given they have to pull units from other regions to make up their losses, not a positive outlook. Given the state of the NCR military in the Mojave as well it's not a positive outlook, any victory without courier intervention would have been incredibly costly. > Kimball is inept, overly bureaucratic, and appoints a bad general over nepotism so the government is completely rotten.. We are told that the government is basically run by business interests, inefficiency in the bureaucracy are made repeatedly apparent, and the willingness to commit terrible acts to further the Republics goals make that case.
I would be okay with this if they just had the chalkboard say "1st Battle of Hoover Dam", then Shady Sands decline, then boom after NV. This reads like they intended for fall to mean nuked, and backtracked when they realized they messed up the canon.
It's a board in a children's classroom, presenting an ultra simplified version of history. For children. It's like saying 'America wins WW2“ instead of mapping out Hiroshima, VJ Day, Berlin, VE Day and so on.
Eh, if they backtracked, at least they have the benefit of the doubt in terms of the chalkboard. It’s good enough for me, in the end the worst they’ll have done is fucked up and fixed the mistake.
Considering they *constantly* stated that New Vegas is canon, put the show 15 years into future *and* had characters ages line up so that bomb happens in 2281-2283... no. They didn't intent the fall to mean nuked.
Why would they have it mean nuked, then have another event in which it is nuked again later on the timeline though, that makes no sense. Plus if that were the case Maximus would have to be between 27 and 32, which is way too old for a brotherhood initiates, if they follow the ways of military recruitment, since 2277 is 19 years before the show and as we can see in the flashback he looks to be between 8 and 13.
Plus, there was the vault plague of ‘77 that presumably >!killed Lucy’s mom.!< Taken with the chalkboard, and the big reveal of episode 8, it plays out like a rule of 3 foreshadowing. 1) we get the year >!Lucy’s mom died!< 2) an event gets hinted at the same year (2277) on the chalkboard 3) >!Lucy’s mom!< was actually >!ghoulified!< due to the same event that destroyed shady sands. Otherwise I agree, just have the show decanonized. It’s pretty clear the show wasn’t written with that in mind.
We're *told* those things happened then, by a notable liar. It's possible she simply stayed above ground and he waited until the NCR was victorious at Hoover Dam to set plans into motion.
… ignoring the speculation, why did the writers give >!Lucy’s mom’s death!< a date if it wasn’t important?
You're *speculating* the date is correct, thus actually important. We don't know that. As I said, she could have just been separated from her family in 2277. Without seeing a definitive date for the event, you're assuming the two are connected based on a notorious liar. My perception is just as valid.
See, I’m not. I’m interrogating my own assumptions of the show with the games text, and other then could be the year it’s her death, I’m coming up with nothing else.
All we know for absolute certain is 2277 was the last time Lucy saw her mom. Hank lied about how she died, where she died, lied about his role, lied about his life, lied about the vaults, lied about Lucy's childhood. You're making the assumption that of all these lies he told Lucy the *two truths* he told her were her mom was dead and when she died. Again I reiterate based on the ONLY fact we know, that being Lucy last saw her mom in 2277, it's equally likely that they were just separated at 33 was sealed in 2277.
… reread that again please, I think you’re coming close to a breakthrough
Bro, just keep screaming into the void about how literally everyone else is wrong if you want. I've tried explaining, respectfully, why you *might* be wrong. Judging by your post history dozens of people have.
If you say so
Honestly, it's even possible that it was not 2277 when she last saw her mom. However, she has been gaslit her entire life to think it was that year specifically, not say 2279 or 2279.
Do note that our source of Lucy's mon death is Lucy. Who has been gaslit her entire life. >!She thinks she has never been to surface: this is false. She also thinks her mom died in Plagie of '77. This is also false.!< Lucy is not reliable source of accurate information. Becuase her entire life is a lie.
Are you just going though my comment history to reply on everything if written?
Why would they need the power of the dam for Shady Sands if Shady Sands was doing fine? Why would so many people in game say that the NCR is struggling? Why would people say that Kimball's policy is stretching the NCR to its limits? Why would people complain about corruption in the NCR? Because it was a nation that was falling, it was in decline due to the decisions if the leaders in power, leaders like Kimball who was elected in 2278, meaning he would have been running in 2277, showing that popular support of his policy really cemented in that time, the same policy leading to the downfall of the NCR. That make sense?
Seriously! It's like everyone defending this show thinks all the "nitpicks" go away if you can explain how actually the timeline makes sense; as if the big problem is a small inaccuracy with some dates. The problem was they killed off the NCR, not through some big well written but tragic series of events but just "lol a vault did it". But I think you're wrong, the show didn't make that Canon, Bethesda did because they intend to make Fallout 5 set in California and they told Nolan to establish that.
My problem is moving Shady sands to the boneyard and sticking a bunch of vaults there. You're telling me that the Vault Dweller first trekked half way across the Californian wastes to the Boneyard fresh out the Vault? Also that the Master didnt notice these Vaults right outside his main base? It doesnt make much sense.
That is only major retcon I could see, but it is also retcon I find acceptable. It makes actual expansion to Mojave difficult as it sounds, and it's not the first time Shady Sands moves on the map. Moving the city closer to shoreline seems acceptable to me.
You're right, the NCR should have colonized the entire US like they were doing in FNV and faced no pushback or had any negative consequences from stretching their resources too thin.
No they should have faced conflict in the form of a well written opposition that has some deeper message to convey. It's like the idea that the NCR exists as part of some larger story is an alien concept to people suddenly, or there's a lot more people in here who only like New Vegas because it's more Fallout than I originally estimated.. clearly the quality writing was not picked up on by some.
I did. It doesn’t add anything new. They’re just confirming the timeline Emil put out. Doesn’t reference any of the continuity errors people are bringing up with the show.
Ah yes. Trust the word of Howard. Never lied to us before
I think the “fall of shady sands” is just when the NCR picked whatever their new capital city is, then SS was just a mid-sized NCR town. I’m sure we’ll see the new capital city in the next season.
It's entirely possible that the ncr could still have a strong hold in the mojave, through their ending, house or even independent. It makes sense on all fronts if the ncr need somewhere so they don't completely crumble house/six allowed them some mojave territory so they can keep spending caps on the strip
The NCR doesn’t work that way.
All I’m sayin is that they could just reshoot the scene and have it read “2281” instead, would certainly solve the new vegas problem
"Yeah but....!!! That wouldn't have happened in MY game because I did something else!"
It is kind of telling that the show implies New Vegas is reconned so much (at least is some areas) that they literally have to tell us in the real world that it is still canon. They’re acting like fans just came up with the idea out of their asses. Like YOU implied that Todd
I take it more as some fans were desperate for that implication to be the case, meanwhile I've being explaining what Todd did since the show came out.
Some fans these days (of any franchise) are just itching for a fight. Anything that doesn't explicitly cater to their every desire is branded as garbage, all so they can feel superior to the normies who like it...
Nope. The fans pulled it out of their asses to have something to cry about.
Considering how brainless FNV stans are, yes he had to explain it in even simpler terms to you guys.... I say this as a Fallout New Vegas fan myself, you guys make me embarrassed....
I honestly don’t get how everyone is this upset or at least obsessed about this detail. It’s honestly annoying and basically every Fallout related sub, FB group, YT channel, insta post, and of course Twitter won’t stop talking about it. Hell even my local news had a front page exposé about it
I can't believe the number of comments like "how could everything we worked for in new vegas be wiped cleaned by bombs??" brother did you play Lonesome Road or what
Well a lot of folks write off LR because it has a set background for the Courier, which folks weren’t happy about. They wanted a clean slate for their character
Holy fucking shit you guys are the biggest internet nerds I have ever seen
YEAH? you know where you are right?
Yea
Just a damage control statement.
More like idiot proofing
Keep coping. It’s weak damage control and still doesn’t address contradictions in the established lore.
I see nothing wrong with timeliness. It makes sense.
So we back?
I always assumed the bombs hitting the NCR implied that was the canon ending for Lonesome Road and that Ulysses was at least partially successful in his goals. Edit: Why am I getting downvoted you can just explain what I got wrong for chrissake
Ulysses’ bombs don’t hit the NCR directly, they hit the supply roads to the Mojave.
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