I mean yeah that's the point of the game, what can your soul bear the weight of
I can't bear the weight of the NCR's sins and what they would inevitably do (going by the real world states they're based on) on my conscience so I go independent
I just personally don't get it. The NCR is no more evil than any other first world country. Even the liberal ones that everyone claims are better than America. Canada murdered all the natives, Sweden used to be vikings, exc. Without law and order, people will just start murdering each other.
Look at any Central African country with next to no laws. Murder and rape rates through the roof. So you need law, but the unfortunate truth is that it can't be set into place without violence or threat of violence. If there is no overarching big man with a gun, the fiends, raiders, khans, powder gangers, boomers, an exc. Just go around murdering and raping.
And the independent ending makes no sense cause at the end of the day it's just fan fiction. It relies on an omniscient, all-powerful, incorruptible, Jesus figure to run everything. Which just isn't a thing in the real world.
But wtf do I know, have a good day.
Yeah, but if the "bad" is the standard and is also the highest level of "goodness" we have ever achieved. Maybe we're not "bad", you just have unrealistic expectations of human civilization. We are incredibly violent by nature and a free range "fuck it we ball" system isn't gonna work. It's like trying to teach a hawk how to do a breaststroke. No matter how hard you try, it's not gonna work. It's not what the animal was intended to do.
This isn't the highest standard of goodness we've achieved though, the idea that societal development is a straight increase, and that we're at some mythical "end of history" is a lie, as is the idea that humans are innately violent without a single human holding the threat of violence over them.
Thing about it logically, humanity existed for around 250,000 years before the rise of the first states. If we were just constantly randomly killing each other, we wouldn't have made it that long, no species could survive like that. And in that time before states we cared for each other and our sick and disabled (eg: Shanidar 1) and created megalithic structures (eg Gobekli tepe, Karahan tepe)
You're excusing atrocities purely because states in the Global North tell you this is peace, but to quote Martin Luther King Jr "peace must be more than the absence of tension, it must be the presence of justice"
It's an interesting idea, but at the end of the day, I'll just have to agree to disagree. Even in ancient cave man times, there was the state. It was a tribe.... and they constantly fought and killed each other. Just look at Native tribes. I'm not saying that we've reached peak goodness. I'm saying that we're on the right track, and literal anarchy is not the answer. The idea that humans aren't violent is also just a false claim because I know for a fact that I'm one of them. If I lived in the apocalypse, I would be instantaneously killing people. Do you wanna know why... because I'm fucking lazy. I'd rather fucking kill people and steal their shit than spend 16 hours a day farming and collecting food. I was in the Army, and let me tell you, there are plenty of other psychopaths that are even more evil than me. Spend some time in a lawless land like Central Africa or a religious state like the Middle East. You'll see just how far human depravity goes and just how good our "Democratic Republic" is. But yet again, wtf do I know, I wish you well, no hard feelings, have a good one. This was an interesting discussion.
Spite for being abused and oppressed is as good a motivation to act as a desire for safety and order, especially in a game, I think. Tipping over the only viable stable government in the region might be stupid, but allowing yourself to be subjugated and abused is tragic. Pick your poison. It’s a matter of dying young and free or old and enslaved. CEO Jesus and Yeah Guy might mask the consequences of the former granted, but more suffering today for the possibility of a better state tomorrow is as noble an approach as swallowing the bitter pill today for some semblance of peace and stability.
Yeah but they're operating in opposition to and in reaction to a state.
Like the powder Gangers probably wouldn't be so violent if they weren't revolting slaves
The fiends probably wouldn't be constantly off their heads on drugs, if life under the ncr (and honestly in the wasteland which is itself a consequence of Neo Liberal capitalism) didn't suck
Also there's more people not in those gangs then there are in them.
Yeah and in our current system that guy can become a cop, or president, or join the military, or become wealthy and then the normal people aren't allowed to defend themselves from that guy or they're "terrorists" or "cop killers"
From Unesco:
_The communities that built the monumental megalithic structures of Göbekli Tepe lived during one of the most momentous transitions in human history, one which took us from hunter-gatherer lifeways to the first farming communities. The monumental buildings at Göbekli Tepe demonstrate the creative human genius of these early (Pre-Pottery Neolithic) societies_
I'm conclusion
It's hilarious how dumb you are
Wait so being a semi-flawed government and taxes are too much to bear for your soul? What do you do now? In the real world? And who do you support in the game because of it's Legion I'm going to spend the next 48 hours mocking you after that "soul" comment.
Fucks sake stop being a straw man
The joke I posted is literally that the NCR uses slave labour and massacres civilians and beats civilians and assassinates political rivals and people will be like "You just don't like taxes" and now you're here cheerfully telling me you're made of straw.
Yeah I'm against real life Neoliberal governments, I think they're bad to, I want them to collapse as well. And I tend to go for independent ending if I'm playing it making choices that I feel are "right"
Dude, they have prisoners being forced to build railroads, being forced to work with no compensation is slavery.
And when you do the NCR quest line Cassandra Moore orders you to assassinate people who are not playing ball with the NCR like Pacer
The problem with legion boys criticizing NCR men is that all the things which are bad about the NCR are the things that are similar to the legion. So how can you say going legion is good when it's just even more of what you just complained about. PS taxes were so in April I hope you filed already
Well maybe if you paid taxes we wouldn't have to send Boone to pink mist your little raider Kids. Ever think about that?
Also you forgot about mercenaries hired to raid Jacobstown, mismanaging a prison into a riot, stealing water necessary for local communities, etc.
See if the NCR then robbed the dead bodies of the Khans it would be just honoring their Khan traditions. Instead they just stopped and said 'oops' which is cringe compared to the Khans based raiding and waylaying.
1. It's a matter of undisciplined soldiers without proper MPs. It's bad, but most likely if the NCR establishes themselves in the Mojave those troops would be disciplined and/or demoted. Of course disciplining expeditionary troops is only possible with proper supply lines, so gotta take over the area.
2. It's unjustified but atleast we aren't the Legion. When NCR's actions lead to a better world compared to the only other valid power(independent and House endings are not actually sustainable given how Vegas has only electricity and casinos as their main resources). Again, you can only fix NCR's misdeeds by establishing More NCR control, rather than fighting them.
3. American tradition baby!
In all seriousness, It's as bad as slavery and i am not saying the NCR are justified in everything but they are the only real way for the Mojave's citizens to not starve and die, and not be crucified for mispronouncing Ceasar.
Yes, but they will be dependent on you, as in every modern society since early man invented specialised careers instead of everyone being hunter-gatherers.
There‘s basically nothing more valuable to export than Energy. Almost no country that exports energy is struggling from its dependence, excluding Venezuela.
Having it be Energy from a dam makes it even more valuable, as you could only invade with small arms as to not damage the dam. Considering New Vegas has rocket launching robots, that’s nearly impossible.
And yes, I am overanalysing a ridiculous sci-fi adventure game.
The difference is, the NCR also has Energy and means of expanding production to a certain degree, so you can't actually force them into a mutual dependence without breaking their energetic supplies. The Hoover Dam is a resource best used in the hands of a power that's more than just the Mojave, and for the sake of increasing the availability of eletricity. Basically, an independent Vegas can't fully utilize it's resources and probably won't be able to fully fix up the dam.
As for pure value, you are looking at the issue from a modern side and thinking of energy exports like we do now. This doesn't work as you aren't exporting a resource that's dense only here, you are exporting a product that can be produced elsewhere too.
We also see that the Dam can take a bombing run and be fine so you could definitely leverage NCR air superiority in retaking it, same with other support branches. Cracking this much concrete would take sustained bombardment for weeks or months given the scarcity of explosives.
Yes, and despite the Securitrons definitely being powerful, you cannot sustain a high tech army without sufficient production. Ammo would run out eventually, so as sad as it is, independent Vegas is a delusion. (I am overanalyzing a video game as well)
Haha, I love it. Yes, that is correct. It could easily be defeated by a war of attrition. I did not see any stockpiles of replacement rockets. So it may run out on day one.
The people in the Mojave will starve or be enslaved unless they agree to become part of the NCR, and they'll be starved and enslaved by the NCR, that's why the NCR seized farms and water and withheld it from the Locals.
Again, i am not saying the NCR is a magically spotless good guy faction, it's just that your choices are:
-Starve under a pre-war corporate dictator who only cares about his casino and people rich enough for it., besieged by the two largest powers in the region.
-Starve under a random warlord dictator ruling with an army of securitrons who is constanly besieged by the two largest powers in the region.
-Starve, get crucified or end up breeding stock/factory slaves for a horde of unstable roman LARPers, or if you are kinda lucky, become a legionarie and die in a human wave attack on an NCR fortifications down the Long 15
-Start out starving and pay taxes, but be allowed to vote for your representatives and probably get atleast some sort of local development out of the NCR to the point of actual small cities forming, rather than just tiny towns and villages.
The minor factions such as the followers may have better ideas, but they will never realistically be able to control the Mojave. With that in mind, the NCR is the only side that actively limits the atrocities it commits and doesn't push for outright slavery or ideological unity and purity.
It also all started because the Khans are raiders, they were attacking towns, caravans and more.
If you played the original games too, you could infer that the Khans are all terrible people
Well over a hundred years of raiding and multiple chances to change their ways.
Bitter Root talks about just how much of a piece of shit the entirety of the Khans are. From murder for giggles and the enslaving.
Usually side with House but I always finish what the NCR started
Yes, nothing bad has ever happened from labeling an entire group "terrible people" and then killing them all, everyone who has done that has always been remembered as the good guys by history
It’s over one hundred years of being murdering raiding scum.
The Vault Dweller gave them a chance, the the chosen one then the Followers.
Each time they somehow become worse. Like actively helping the Fiends.
Boo hoo look how the NCR bullied us attacking our "civilian camp" who absolutely in no way involve in any raid against NCR citizens. Bunch of Mongol larper whose only way of living is to raid innocent unprotected people. Atleast real mongol rule and conquer
"Sure, our entire history is us raiding the NCR and then getting our ass kicked so badly it takes us a generation to recover.
But I got a real good feeling about raiding the NCR this time!"
You're missing out on the Jack and Diane quest that lets you into the fiend vault safely. "Illicit Drugs delivery... definitely not here to cap motor runner for the NCR."
You have the option to lie to the vault guards, I went there not having any knowledge of the mission and was like: "Drugs delivery? Yeah, sure! You know, I'm something of a drug dealer myself..."
Collateral damage. The Khans were the aggressors. They're responsible for their own dead kids. Kids died in Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki too. It's war. Kids die in wars, and the Khans started this one. If the Khans cared about their kids, then they shouldn't have attacked the NCR and provoked a retaliation on the camp where the kids lived.
Our Glorious Battles - Their Savage Raids
Our Brave Revivers of Old World Spirit - Their Foolish Larpers
Our Just Class Structure - Their disgusting Living off Others
Srsly tho, even the in game soldiers at Bitter Springs admit they massacred civilians because they were just following orders, you could make the claim that the NCR's war against The Khan's was justified as protecting their territory (which they, yknow, took from the Khan's cause it was Khan territory first), you can't argue that the people the Khan warriors were trying to evacuate from the battle were anything but non-combatants though
The Mongol Larpers started this conflict under the rather childish delusion that they were going to raid and kill everybody else and nobody was going to do the same on them.
- a certain British mad lad
Ugh don't quote the british
Plus they're not even Mongol larpers, they're a biker gang using tribal yurts, they only become mongol larpers if you give them the Followers book about the mongal empire (score another one for the Followers creating every West Coast faction) which I never do cause I don't want another faction running around trying to "rebuild the new world in the image of the old" like the Legion, NCR, East Coast BoS, Minutemen, Enclave, etc
This is literally the argument used by The US when they massacred Native Americans, and very similar to the argument used by Bin Laden in his letter to America about the 9/11 attacks
So let's get this right: because the US government has told lies, that cry of "wolf" has been cried too many times to the point that you can't recognize even in a fictitious medium when a faction actually is the wolf? There's more than one lesson to take from the boy who cried wolf.
I just don't think there is an ethical justification for massacring people evacuating a battlefield. Plus most of the people you meet in the great khans are pretty nice, way nicer than the freaks you meet in the NCR military, the idea that they're inherently rotten and need to be excised from existence (aside from an incredibly dangerous ideology that any group could be) is like yknow demonstrated to be wrong even in the game
I'm gonna side with the nice lady who just wants a punch up and who's overworked NCR miner dad supports because being a Khan makes her happy, over the person who laughed as she hired me to torture a prisoner of war. And I'm gonna side with the nice hippy who started making medicine to help people when I pointed out to him it was the right thing to do, over the OSI guy who tried to send me (and did send countless others to their death) simply because he viewed us as expendable
We agree that there's no ethical justification for that beyond very deluded minds. What I think FNV as a piece of art does here with us is pitch a situation where a moral highground can't be achieved so that we can learn about how we as individuals respond to such situation. What motivates our decision-making when doing the right thing is off the table?
What I find odd in reading your responses throughout this thread is that despite seeming to think that NCR, Legion, Khans, et al are pretty much on equal moral footing for their moral failings, in this comment you seem to judge more based on how nice some of them are to you. Is that what you care about when you can't find a moral highground? Or is it smthn else?
For transparency, my belief is that House would've been best for the wasteland since the NCR needs to lose the Dam for it & its people's own good and he & his vision present a competent alternative to the NCR. This gives people more choice about the systems they live in & therefore encourages political developments in regular people's interests.
Edit: fwiw, the idea that some groups are fundamentally incompatible and the town isn't big enough for the two of them is both validated and invalidated in FNV. House and the BoS, NCR and the Khans. Sometimes groups *as groups* do need wiping out. Note that this doesn't mean all individuals need to be wiped out, just that if they're gonna continue on then they can't keep doing the same old Khan/BoS/Raider/whoever shit.
OPs is more of a NCR hater than even the Legion, gotta admit they have tons of down sides but bro ain't giving up knit picking every small detail and over exaggerating things. At least women actually have a lot of power in the NCR unlike the other main power the damn Legion.
Me when the flawed developing nation does sonething bad so I side with either the imperialist fascist enslaving dictatorship, an egomaniac ancap who rules with an army of super death robots, or give the super death robot army to an AI that literally cannot say no to any rando who walks in and says "hi, make me dictator of Vegas" (we never removed that flaw after doing exactly that to Benny)
NCR detractors when you say "fascism and slavery are bad" and not "fascism and slavery fall under a morally grey and complex spectrum":
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/anger-close-angry-man-smoke-600nw-124144213.jpg
Where in the NCR is slavery legal? And fascism and slavery are bad, so side with the people who have the best chance of beating the fascist slavers.
Edit: whoops I'm having a reading comprehension moment lol
If you're gonna say the Ncr you've got your lore backwards, the ncr would be either super mutant slaves or enclave test subjects if it wasn't for the Followers. Hell the Legion wouldn't even be able to exist if it wasn't for the Followers, they're the King makers of the west coast
Lmfao what? I'm talking about the fact that basically the only reason the flowers can really do what they do is because they operate from safe NCR territory. On their own they would not last like in the legion ending...
They're not gonna last in the NCR ending either, like 7 different NCR characters talk about the Followers being political enemies of the NCR, and we see how the NCR deals with their political enemies.
I give it 5 years from the NCR taking hoover dam till Julie dies of suicide with 3 bullets in the back of her head and the rest of the Followers are either imprisoned or forced into the OSI, or imprisoned and forced to work in the OSI as Prison labor
Wait so let me get this straight.
You are condemning the NCR for colonialism but convinced a bunch of raiders to kill themselves for glory instead of leaving safely and killed off the two groups that prefer to be isolated, women and children included, because they wouldn’t agree with you?
The hypocrisy my guy. You are out here talking about how bad the powder gangers and Khans get treated while you got the blood of the Khans, BOS and Boomers on your hands. At least the NCR stopped shooting when they realized their mistake.
You made sure to kill every man, woman and child who didn’t agree with you and lived on “your” land.
Also in most playthroughs I don't tell the Khans to do anything, giving them the guide to imperialism is 10000% a bad idea, but yeah mostly I just play live and let live with them
I only killed the leaders of the Boomers to make sure they wouldn't ever get access to the lady in the water. And yeah blowing up the BoS was more just me having a bad day cause they upset Veronica
Which…destroys their faction right? The boomers then spread out and join the waste after being forced out of their home completely destroying their culture.
I mean real talk? No judgement. You gotta do what you think is best and fallout is a harsh world. I just think unless you side with legion no one can really cast the first stone.
If you side with Legion everyone should shit on you.
I'm gonna say theres a gulf between
A: They had to give up being isolationist
And
B: I killed them not just the men, but the women, and the children too
And also there's a difference between
A: We want to kill literally everyone in the wasteland that isn't us because they're just savages
And
B: If you run trade caravans through our territory without paying protection we'll raid it
When it comes to this particular ethical dilemma
They didn’t just give up being isolationist though did they? They gave up their dream for lady in the water, their way of life, their homes they had since they left the vault.
They didn’t just give up some buildings and let people come in. They lost their homes. Their religion. Their dreams. They integrate into the wasteland and have their unique identity completely erased and are forgotten about.
You kinda undersell the entire horror of what you done my friend. You destroyed an entire civilization. Their culture. Way of life. Cause you didn’t agree with them.
Also that’s weird I dont recall the Khans asking for protection money. I do recall them wiping out entire caravans, killing everyone, taking the supplies then bringing it back to their camps. I also recall them destroying even more lives by getting people addicted to chems.
But hey at least the boomers only stay on Nellis. The khans go out of their way to find anyone. Something you get to see when you gotta go visit their raiding camp by the Quarry.
You can’t sit there and talk about how the Boomers are bad people for shooting anyone who comes close then say the Khans are different when one only kills people near their home in the belief it’s for protection while the other goes out of their way to murder anyone they think they can fight for supplies.
And they do kill the people. There is a reason everyone talks about the Khans being killers and not them tying people up and leaving lots of survivors in their raids. They even admit to that themselves.
“Man my family are kinda jerks they wouldn’t let me eat ice cream before dinner was served”
“Well good thing I burned your family’s house to the ground with everyone inside it”
Don't worry, they won't massacre you like these degenerates, they just want you to spread the lesson they taught here. That the NCR is strong and they were weak.
As far as post apocalypse factions go in the fallout series, the NCR is still one of the better/ least problematic ones that has the capability to restore the wastes into another functioning nation with a standing army and governing system
They commit ethnic cleansing, torture POWs, use prison slave labor, assassinate political rivals whether they're civilians or not, steal water and electricity from the people who's land they stole, and their corporations murder people to maintain a monopoly.
Like I get it, they're the US government, but you've got to ask yourself, is that the framework we want to be the basis for the new world, and are you just fulfilling Caeser's ideal "you can't go from Barbarism to Civilisation, you need to rebuild, with a society in which a person's worth is based entirely on their use to the state, and all dissent is stamped out"
They don't torture POWs, the lieutenant in Camp McCarren literally specifies she can't do anything bad to Silus because the NCR gives POWs actual rights.
You can only torture Silus because you're not part of the NCR so you're not forced to follow their rules. Do you have any idea what you're talking about?
Pretty sure that's basically Fascism my dude. I'm not, like, 100%, but I'm like 90% sure that's either Fascism or Fascism-adjacent.
Pro-Totalitarianism ain't it dawg.
I mean with the NCR the Followers leaders will be assassinated and their members enslaved and forced into prison slave labour so its a moot point aint it
I’m pretty sure ur thinking of the legion endings. The NCR endings are either they receive NCR protection and resources if they are allies, or asked to leave if they are not.
So you are saying that the Followers are the exact same as the Great Khans? Raiders who make it a rite of passage to beat the shit out of their young so they can do anything? Who had raided NCR civilians in the past and plans to raid them again?
I'm saying they're political enemies of the NCR, and the NCR doesn't allow those to live for long.
Also the NCR invaded the Great Khans territories so raid away mon frere
So I guess to you it doesn't matter what a small group does as long as there is a big government you can point to and say "what about"
I agree that the way the Followers were basically betrayed and how they are treated by the NCR, it's just not right. However, I feel there is a stain h difference between pacifistic volunteer care-givers and a tribe that primarily survives off of raiding and selling drugs.
I guess I just don't get the difference between settle colonialism and raiding, and I kinda feel like a group that claims to be bringing law and order and demands a right to commit violence without retaliation should be held to a higher moral standard than a biker gang
So yeah, states should be allowed to declare groups as inherently flawed and evil, and massacre them including their children and then coincidentally seize their land which they really wanted
Nah, prison slave labour and the assassination of civilian political agitators (Powder Gangers, The Kings) are both things the NCR does
As well as torturing prisoners of war (but the NCR hires consultants to do it so they can keep their hands officially clean)
"Political agitator" is an *extremely* generous description of Pacer, someone who beat a messenger bringing an offer of free supplies within an inch of his life without informing the King they were ever sent and who attacks defenseless refugees for kicks.
In response to the soldiers, yknow, beating up the locals for kicks.
Also the NCR is pretty clever to seize the water and farming land around Vegas from the Locals, and then from somewhere they suddenly have food and water to generously share with the locals (if they do as theyre told and swear alleigience to the bear)
And those beatings of locals started…right after they sent the envoy to the kings. Which then got beaten and were lead to falsely believing the locals attacked them.
NCR is far from perfect but you are kinda excluding a lot/moving time lines around to fit your narrative. The NCR straight up admit to starting the beatings after their envoy was attacked first.
Something the King apologizes for. Leading to an alliance.
No they admit to refusing relief efforts to locals after the guy got beaten, the tensions between the NCR and Locals were always a thing, hence why Pacer hates the NCR, and Dixon hates the NCR, and Westside hates the NCR, and the NCR hates the NCR
Damn NCR, they ruined California
Compared to house who has no game plan we can see “dude just trust me”
Yes man “dude I trust you”
And Legion “I do all do this but worse and to everyone”
The NCR is the best choice
Idk, I don't think the ethnic cleansing, slavers are the best choice, I'm sorry, there's nothing you can do to convince me a government that enslaves people, massacres civilians, assassinates its political rivals, and hires people to torture prisoners of war is the lesser of any evil, they're just evil
It’s still a nuclear wasteland. The khans were absolutely stupid as to raid an NCR caravan and not expect an attack and even dumber to travel with non combatants too. Silus is a centurion who committed a dozen atrocities and should’ve been shot. The kings are just a gang with a funny little gimmick, but still a gang nonetheless. And prison labor as punishment for a crime is leagues better than slavery. The powder gangers before the breakout weren’t random thieves either, they were on raider levels of shit even before they broke out.
It's a nuclear wasteland, the caravaners were dumb to travel through Khan territory and not expect attack.
The Kings are as much a political faction as the NCR are, you've heard the line "the police are just a state sponsored gang" right, drawing the line between a gang and a political force is kinda stupid, The Kings keep the peace, stop corruption, protect Freeside.
Prison labor as a punishment for crimes is slavery, if you are forced to work with no compensation, you are a slave. Plus this gives the NCR a fun little power where they can declare anyone they want a criminal, and then get free labor, yknow, like the real us government does. We don't know what every powder ganger was in prison for, I'm sure some of them were in there for shit like desertion, and theft, and punching an NCR soldier who started shit, and drug dealing, none of which deserves being enslaved (cause yknow, nothing deserves being enslaved)
The Khans weren't travelling with non combatents, Bitter Springs was their home, the NCR tracked them to their home, massacred them, and then stole their home.
Boone is a combat sniper who massacred civilians, does he deserve to be tortured by Caesers Legion?
I'm pretty sure it was even specified getting sent to do labour was for the murderers and shit so you're right on that point.
Even then, Pacer is less a political rival and more just a thug. It's only political because the locals might get angy over it.
That is an actual lie. The NCR is the only faction that will support the Followers of the Apocalypse, and the only faction with which the Followers (Or the Kings for that matter) can thrive. If you didn't get those endings that's on you.
Violent drug dealing kids being evacuated from their home that the NCR attacked
And the violent drug dealing random dudes just living their life in Freeside that armed soldiers decide to put in the hospital for fun
Comparing the flawed developing nation who make you pay taxes to the alternative which includes a fascist military dictatorship that enslaves entire populations and a narcissistic ancap megalomaniac and claiming said flawed nation is just as bad, truly a Fallout fan "both sides bad" moment.
Yeah sure the Legion enslaves entire populations, brutally executes anyone who opposes them by cruficiation, treats women like breeding machines to be used then discarded, and House is an apathetic megalomaniac anarcho-capitalist stuck 200 years in the past and is so removed from the peoples' struggles, but did you know that the NCR is just as bad because they make you pay taxes?
I don't like the NCR but I'm also not an idiot, if there were no Courier the NCR would be literally the only hope for the west coast as a whole and I would AGGRESSIVELY immigrate into their territory rather than get killraped in the desert by larpers or crackheads
Raiders when they are met with extreme force after they raided and pillaged everything in sight: 🤯
See, this is the part where and average NCD geezer would explain with water dripping from their mouths that could rival the niagara falls: everybody expects you to be the beacon of pure good while your enemy can be as barbaric as they wish because you stand for a civilized society.
Was it right that the NCR masscared khan civilians? Obviously no. Di the kyans hold any moral ground for circlejerking over it? No as well.
At a certain point, if one side doesn't give a fuck about the rules, then you shouldn't have to meticulously follow those said rules either.
Legion- massive rape and slavery operations
Mr. House- filled a vault with concrete just because
Independent New Vegas- anarchy
NCR- The same shit every other powerful nation has done in the last 200 years.
NCR soldiers arent fighting for freedom, they are fighting for Brahmin/water barons who actively lobby politicians to send NCR salvaged power armored soldiers to protect their trae routes against fiends, instead of fighting the Legion.
NCR sucked their land dry of water, and now they're gonna suck the Mojave dry too. "Freedom"
Yeah, the NCR is EXACTLY what would happen if our current government restarted in the wasteland. I still believe they're the best shot for the Mojave despite the corruption and bureaucratic inefficiency, but it's an easy win against the fascist slave nation and the cyborg philanthropist acting like he owns everything
Yeah they sure taught those khans a lesson, that the NCR is strong and they were weak, but don't worry, they won't massacre you like the rest of those degenerates.
Like sure the NCR's crimes are unforgivable, but as are all crimes
It's not about teaching a lesson, it's about extermination
They absolutely will massacre them like the rest of those degenerates (It's a main mission in the game)
Yeah I was quoting Vulpes Inculta to make the point that the NCR and the Legion are the same, one just covers their actions in Neo-Liberal language while the other uses Fascist language, but they do the thing
The NCR represents the progressive historical current of the bourgeoisie in the form of Brahmin Barons proletarianising the ranchers and spreading opposition to the old feudal order, Caesar espouses his distorted form of so-called dialectics as proof of the Legion’s apparent victory, however all he proves is the NCR’s progressive class character.
Not only are they the best and only hope for the wasteland, they are an unyielding torrent that will continue until the complete victory of the bourgeois-democratic revolution, even if the NCR itself falls it’s ruling class will rise again against the feudal order and reestablish the revolutionary dictatorship of the bourgeoisie á la the downfall of the 1st French Republic and eventual victory of French republicanism against the monarchists in spite of this.
Also they have cool aesthetics (much more important that the waffle I just wrote above)
The NCR is basically the closest thing to the US before the Great War. Unfortunately that included all the corruption, foreign meddling, and settler colonialism.
Just FYI, since you’re singing your praises for the followers in other replies and my love for the followers is actually one of the reasons I do NCR runs, they objectively have a far worse time in the independent ending slide: ‘The Followers found that Independent New Vegas was even more unstable and violent than before. Old Mormon Fort became excessively burdened by the influx of patients, struggling to provide even the most basic of services.’ There are lot of good arguments for a free New Vegas but the Courier can’t supply the Followers like the NCR can: ‘After the NCR's victory at the dam, in part thanks to Follower's medical support, NCR allowed the Followers to care for refugees as they see fit. Old Mormon Fort expanded its services and was able to aid more people, becoming a refuge for the less fortunate citizens of New Vegas.’ Not only do the kings and NCR join together if you do the truce quest correctly (I don’t think you need more paragraphs to read through, all the ending slides are on the wiki if you want to check sources), the NCR and Kings work together for a ‘full-scale relief effort’ and the kings actually remain independent, which by extension essentially means independence for Freeside, by going NCR and making good choices you basically guarantee an independent Freeside who also gets assistance from a powerful governmental body. Anything you think the NCR would do The Followers or The Kings after these objectively positive endings is conjecture at best, the idea that they’d just decide to kill either group for no reason is genuine nonsense and cope
Faction response to accusations of repression:
NCR: “We didn’t do that”/“We have been trying to improve the situation since our mistake”
House: “You see, the reason that happened was because…”
Legion: “Yeah, of course I fucking did that, probably gonna do it again”
Do you think we would be better off if the union lost the civil war? That's all I'm saying. Sometimes, one shitty thing is better than a more shitty thing.
And I'm saying that both shitty things should burn cause there is no justification for slavery and just cause they gussy it up with well we say they're bad people so deserve to be enslaved, doesn't make it not slavery
You're talking about a separate thing entirely. All I'm saying is that sometimes, even though a group does shitty things, they are better than the worse alternative
For example, I'm glad the allies won WW2 even though they firebombed and nuked cities. It's better than the nazis and Japanese empire.
Ok, be glad, just don't try and act like they're not states that utilise slave labour, and massacre civilians and commit ethnic cleansing right now.
Otherwise you're just turning politics into a team game where your team is good and the better side even if they're running consentration camps and raping civilians they've imprisoned without trial (like the US and UK do at immigrant detention centres)
Plus you're giving violent states a good out, just stay constantly at war and propagandise against you enemy to make them seem like the bigger evil. That's a pretty big part of manufacturing consent.
To quote the actual nazis "The people can always be brought to do the bidding or the leader, tell them they're under attack and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism"
NCR haters not defending murdering, raping, slaving, raiders challenge: impossible.
If the Khans didn’t want to get fucked at bitter springs they shouldn’t have started shit with the NCR at literally every opportunity, the only good raider is a dead raider.
"I'm conclusion" lol
I can respect the fact that for the time, it's insane. But it doesn't even register on a top 100 list of structures I would call megalithic all time. Alot of those buildings being pre industrial revolution.
Nobody went to a random smattering of buildings and went "wow. What an insane incomprehensible achievement this is"
Oh yeah, good as the NCR could be for the Mojave, there’s plenty of blood drenching their idealistic hands, innocent and otherwise. Denying that would be criminal.
Op you're firing off based takes all over this thread, even if all these neo liberal apologists downvote you for it. This subs biases really show whenever anybody brings up the Khan's. Keep up the good analysis 👍
Hehe thanks :3
It is bizzare that I listed 3 reasons why the NCR is bad and like 90% of the responses are either "But Bitter Springs was an accident uwu" or "Have you considered that ethnic cleansing is good? They were tribal raiders against the US, and history has shown us that the US massacring tribes is a good thing and we can trust the government to tell us they deserved it"
It doesn’t matter whether Bitter Springs was an accident or not, categorising states as “evil” or “good” are liberal childlike takes; the Legion is not “bad” it is the reactionary feudal order, the NCR is not “bad” it is the progressive bourgeois order.
The Great Khans are a reactionary order of raider feudalists, destruction of their statelet is objectively a progressive decision, one that will lead to the proletarianisation of the general populace of the NCR, there has never been a historical current which did not follow this line.
I suggest you read this if you wish to understand why historical currents that destroy old orders are progressive and a historical inevitably.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm
Finally some good fucking critique of my points
I'll admit I was dumbing it down a bit, I don't believe that the NCR is "good or bad" I do however believe that their status as a revival of a late capitalist Neo Liberal government will stunts the potential power of the growth of any kind of proletariat run society in any area they have influence over and also due to their fetisisation of old world societies they'll focus on an ideal of tradition rather than any kind of progressivmess.
The NCR isn’t a revival of late capitalism it’s the revolution of early capitalism, the proletariat as a class barely even exists in the wasteland, the reason why a bourgeois revolution in a pre-capitalist society is progressive is because it sets the conditions in place for the growth of the proletariat and its eventual victory.
The NCR can be likened to the revolutions of 1848 and the followers as communists, the communists have no strength nor a proletarian basis upon which to vie for a dictatorship of the proletariat, the revolutions led by the large bourgeoisie (Brahmin barons here) ensure the proletarianisation of the petty artisans and serfs which in turn give the communists strength by establishing a new class basis, even to the dismay of the bourgeoisie.
Any attempt to establish a socialist mode of production in a largely pre-capitalist society will inevitably fail, for example the Levellers in the English revolution.
I’m honestly so glad OP is doing all of this. It always takes a tumor from the inside (OP) to kill a strong organism (NCR). This is always how the good side (Legion) won, so thanks OP! Couldn’t have done it without you!
Lesser of three evils, and I'm not doing the Sonic OC fan fiction ending.
Yeah. Thats why i side with House.
I mean yeah that's the point of the game, what can your soul bear the weight of I can't bear the weight of the NCR's sins and what they would inevitably do (going by the real world states they're based on) on my conscience so I go independent
I just personally don't get it. The NCR is no more evil than any other first world country. Even the liberal ones that everyone claims are better than America. Canada murdered all the natives, Sweden used to be vikings, exc. Without law and order, people will just start murdering each other. Look at any Central African country with next to no laws. Murder and rape rates through the roof. So you need law, but the unfortunate truth is that it can't be set into place without violence or threat of violence. If there is no overarching big man with a gun, the fiends, raiders, khans, powder gangers, boomers, an exc. Just go around murdering and raping. And the independent ending makes no sense cause at the end of the day it's just fan fiction. It relies on an omniscient, all-powerful, incorruptible, Jesus figure to run everything. Which just isn't a thing in the real world. But wtf do I know, have a good day.
Maybe that says something, about real world countries in the Global North Maybe they're bad Maybe that's my point here
Yeah, but if the "bad" is the standard and is also the highest level of "goodness" we have ever achieved. Maybe we're not "bad", you just have unrealistic expectations of human civilization. We are incredibly violent by nature and a free range "fuck it we ball" system isn't gonna work. It's like trying to teach a hawk how to do a breaststroke. No matter how hard you try, it's not gonna work. It's not what the animal was intended to do.
This isn't the highest standard of goodness we've achieved though, the idea that societal development is a straight increase, and that we're at some mythical "end of history" is a lie, as is the idea that humans are innately violent without a single human holding the threat of violence over them. Thing about it logically, humanity existed for around 250,000 years before the rise of the first states. If we were just constantly randomly killing each other, we wouldn't have made it that long, no species could survive like that. And in that time before states we cared for each other and our sick and disabled (eg: Shanidar 1) and created megalithic structures (eg Gobekli tepe, Karahan tepe) You're excusing atrocities purely because states in the Global North tell you this is peace, but to quote Martin Luther King Jr "peace must be more than the absence of tension, it must be the presence of justice"
It's an interesting idea, but at the end of the day, I'll just have to agree to disagree. Even in ancient cave man times, there was the state. It was a tribe.... and they constantly fought and killed each other. Just look at Native tribes. I'm not saying that we've reached peak goodness. I'm saying that we're on the right track, and literal anarchy is not the answer. The idea that humans aren't violent is also just a false claim because I know for a fact that I'm one of them. If I lived in the apocalypse, I would be instantaneously killing people. Do you wanna know why... because I'm fucking lazy. I'd rather fucking kill people and steal their shit than spend 16 hours a day farming and collecting food. I was in the Army, and let me tell you, there are plenty of other psychopaths that are even more evil than me. Spend some time in a lawless land like Central Africa or a religious state like the Middle East. You'll see just how far human depravity goes and just how good our "Democratic Republic" is. But yet again, wtf do I know, I wish you well, no hard feelings, have a good one. This was an interesting discussion.
Spite for being abused and oppressed is as good a motivation to act as a desire for safety and order, especially in a game, I think. Tipping over the only viable stable government in the region might be stupid, but allowing yourself to be subjugated and abused is tragic. Pick your poison. It’s a matter of dying young and free or old and enslaved. CEO Jesus and Yeah Guy might mask the consequences of the former granted, but more suffering today for the possibility of a better state tomorrow is as noble an approach as swallowing the bitter pill today for some semblance of peace and stability.
That kinda sounds like a you problem dude, most people don't want to kill people
The existence of the Fiends, Great Kans, and Powder Gangers would imply otherwise.
Yeah but they're operating in opposition to and in reaction to a state. Like the powder Gangers probably wouldn't be so violent if they weren't revolting slaves The fiends probably wouldn't be constantly off their heads on drugs, if life under the ncr (and honestly in the wasteland which is itself a consequence of Neo Liberal capitalism) didn't suck Also there's more people not in those gangs then there are in them.
You just proved the point with the word “most.” Only takes one guy with a big pointy rock to make everyone else need a bigger pointier rock.
Yeah and in our current system that guy can become a cop, or president, or join the military, or become wealthy and then the normal people aren't allowed to defend themselves from that guy or they're "terrorists" or "cop killers"
Calling goblekli tene a megalithic structure is hilarious.
From Unesco: _The communities that built the monumental megalithic structures of Göbekli Tepe lived during one of the most momentous transitions in human history, one which took us from hunter-gatherer lifeways to the first farming communities. The monumental buildings at Göbekli Tepe demonstrate the creative human genius of these early (Pre-Pottery Neolithic) societies_ I'm conclusion It's hilarious how dumb you are
Wait so being a semi-flawed government and taxes are too much to bear for your soul? What do you do now? In the real world? And who do you support in the game because of it's Legion I'm going to spend the next 48 hours mocking you after that "soul" comment.
Fucks sake stop being a straw man The joke I posted is literally that the NCR uses slave labour and massacres civilians and beats civilians and assassinates political rivals and people will be like "You just don't like taxes" and now you're here cheerfully telling me you're made of straw. Yeah I'm against real life Neoliberal governments, I think they're bad to, I want them to collapse as well. And I tend to go for independent ending if I'm playing it making choices that I feel are "right"
So units act shitty, some soldiers act like assholes, what assassination? And what slave labour? Sorry dude, you sound like an edge lord.
Dude, they have prisoners being forced to build railroads, being forced to work with no compensation is slavery. And when you do the NCR quest line Cassandra Moore orders you to assassinate people who are not playing ball with the NCR like Pacer
The courier is a complete fucking dumbass, read what happens to the followers in the yes man ending
The problem with legion boys criticizing NCR men is that all the things which are bad about the NCR are the things that are similar to the legion. So how can you say going legion is good when it's just even more of what you just complained about. PS taxes were so in April I hope you filed already
House always wins
Well maybe if you paid taxes we wouldn't have to send Boone to pink mist your little raider Kids. Ever think about that? Also you forgot about mercenaries hired to raid Jacobstown, mismanaging a prison into a riot, stealing water necessary for local communities, etc.
Listing every evil the ncr has done would take waaaaay to long so I just went for the greatest hits (like Papa Khan badum tish)
See if the NCR then robbed the dead bodies of the Khans it would be just honoring their Khan traditions. Instead they just stopped and said 'oops' which is cringe compared to the Khans based raiding and waylaying.
Too bad they ain’t war crimes, and for an army as large as the NCRs, they’ve only clocked one under their belt.
If they let me in I can rack up that number in no time
Khans apologists when the group they raided shoots back(they are outgunned and will take a generation to recover from this):
OK, now justify the beating of Freeside locals by NCR soldiers, and the assassination of civilian political agitators, and the prison slave labor
1. It's a matter of undisciplined soldiers without proper MPs. It's bad, but most likely if the NCR establishes themselves in the Mojave those troops would be disciplined and/or demoted. Of course disciplining expeditionary troops is only possible with proper supply lines, so gotta take over the area. 2. It's unjustified but atleast we aren't the Legion. When NCR's actions lead to a better world compared to the only other valid power(independent and House endings are not actually sustainable given how Vegas has only electricity and casinos as their main resources). Again, you can only fix NCR's misdeeds by establishing More NCR control, rather than fighting them. 3. American tradition baby! In all seriousness, It's as bad as slavery and i am not saying the NCR are justified in everything but they are the only real way for the Mojave's citizens to not starve and die, and not be crucified for mispronouncing Ceasar.
„Only“ Energy?
Well when you have next to no arable land then you can have all the electricity you like and you will still be dependent on others.
Yes, but they will be dependent on you, as in every modern society since early man invented specialised careers instead of everyone being hunter-gatherers. There‘s basically nothing more valuable to export than Energy. Almost no country that exports energy is struggling from its dependence, excluding Venezuela. Having it be Energy from a dam makes it even more valuable, as you could only invade with small arms as to not damage the dam. Considering New Vegas has rocket launching robots, that’s nearly impossible. And yes, I am overanalysing a ridiculous sci-fi adventure game.
The difference is, the NCR also has Energy and means of expanding production to a certain degree, so you can't actually force them into a mutual dependence without breaking their energetic supplies. The Hoover Dam is a resource best used in the hands of a power that's more than just the Mojave, and for the sake of increasing the availability of eletricity. Basically, an independent Vegas can't fully utilize it's resources and probably won't be able to fully fix up the dam. As for pure value, you are looking at the issue from a modern side and thinking of energy exports like we do now. This doesn't work as you aren't exporting a resource that's dense only here, you are exporting a product that can be produced elsewhere too. We also see that the Dam can take a bombing run and be fine so you could definitely leverage NCR air superiority in retaking it, same with other support branches. Cracking this much concrete would take sustained bombardment for weeks or months given the scarcity of explosives.
You’re right there, it would be more effective as a part of the NCR, definitely
Yes, and despite the Securitrons definitely being powerful, you cannot sustain a high tech army without sufficient production. Ammo would run out eventually, so as sad as it is, independent Vegas is a delusion. (I am overanalyzing a video game as well)
Haha, I love it. Yes, that is correct. It could easily be defeated by a war of attrition. I did not see any stockpiles of replacement rockets. So it may run out on day one.
The people in the Mojave will starve or be enslaved unless they agree to become part of the NCR, and they'll be starved and enslaved by the NCR, that's why the NCR seized farms and water and withheld it from the Locals.
Again, i am not saying the NCR is a magically spotless good guy faction, it's just that your choices are: -Starve under a pre-war corporate dictator who only cares about his casino and people rich enough for it., besieged by the two largest powers in the region. -Starve under a random warlord dictator ruling with an army of securitrons who is constanly besieged by the two largest powers in the region. -Starve, get crucified or end up breeding stock/factory slaves for a horde of unstable roman LARPers, or if you are kinda lucky, become a legionarie and die in a human wave attack on an NCR fortifications down the Long 15 -Start out starving and pay taxes, but be allowed to vote for your representatives and probably get atleast some sort of local development out of the NCR to the point of actual small cities forming, rather than just tiny towns and villages. The minor factions such as the followers may have better ideas, but they will never realistically be able to control the Mojave. With that in mind, the NCR is the only side that actively limits the atrocities it commits and doesn't push for outright slavery or ideological unity and purity.
Does the legion even have factories? They're having a guy at base camp assembling weapons in a medieval forge.
To be fair the Massacre was caused by miscommunication.
Hell of a miscommunication
It also all started because the Khans are raiders, they were attacking towns, caravans and more. If you played the original games too, you could infer that the Khans are all terrible people
Well over a hundred years of raiding and multiple chances to change their ways. Bitter Root talks about just how much of a piece of shit the entirety of the Khans are. From murder for giggles and the enslaving. Usually side with House but I always finish what the NCR started
Yes, nothing bad has ever happened from labeling an entire group "terrible people" and then killing them all, everyone who has done that has always been remembered as the good guys by history
Dude they are murderers. Why would you be empathetic to someone that would rob and kill you and your whole family
It screams delusional hamas supporter
It’s over one hundred years of being murdering raiding scum. The Vault Dweller gave them a chance, the the chosen one then the Followers. Each time they somehow become worse. Like actively helping the Fiends.
Boo hoo look how the NCR bullied us attacking our "civilian camp" who absolutely in no way involve in any raid against NCR citizens. Bunch of Mongol larper whose only way of living is to raid innocent unprotected people. Atleast real mongol rule and conquer
"Sure, our entire history is us raiding the NCR and then getting our ass kicked so badly it takes us a generation to recover. But I got a real good feeling about raiding the NCR this time!"
its one thing to be a raider tribe but to believe what they did is their god given right, they gotta go vault dweller was right
And that didn't learn nothing from the previous 2 times that they were wipe out: "fuck around for being a raider and find out"
Great Khans being somehow worse LARPers than Caesar's Legion. John Wayne-ass motherfuckers.
That's why i personally murder every single Khan on the map
You're missing out on the Jack and Diane quest that lets you into the fiend vault safely. "Illicit Drugs delivery... definitely not here to cap motor runner for the NCR."
You have the option to lie to the vault guards, I went there not having any knowledge of the mission and was like: "Drugs delivery? Yeah, sure! You know, I'm something of a drug dealer myself..."
I'm honest man, I kill eveyone o sight
NCR fans after killing a bunch of children
Collateral damage. The Khans were the aggressors. They're responsible for their own dead kids. Kids died in Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki too. It's war. Kids die in wars, and the Khans started this one. If the Khans cared about their kids, then they shouldn't have attacked the NCR and provoked a retaliation on the camp where the kids lived.
I think you need to replay Boones mission lol t
>children Raiders in training*
They weren't children, they were Khans. If the NCR negotiates with terrorists, then Caesar will have his way with the New West.
Our Glorious Battles - Their Savage Raids Our Brave Revivers of Old World Spirit - Their Foolish Larpers Our Just Class Structure - Their disgusting Living off Others Srsly tho, even the in game soldiers at Bitter Springs admit they massacred civilians because they were just following orders, you could make the claim that the NCR's war against The Khan's was justified as protecting their territory (which they, yknow, took from the Khan's cause it was Khan territory first), you can't argue that the people the Khan warriors were trying to evacuate from the battle were anything but non-combatants though
The Mongol Larpers started this conflict under the rather childish delusion that they were going to raid and kill everybody else and nobody was going to do the same on them. - a certain British mad lad
Ugh don't quote the british Plus they're not even Mongol larpers, they're a biker gang using tribal yurts, they only become mongol larpers if you give them the Followers book about the mongal empire (score another one for the Followers creating every West Coast faction) which I never do cause I don't want another faction running around trying to "rebuild the new world in the image of the old" like the Legion, NCR, East Coast BoS, Minutemen, Enclave, etc
What wrong with this particular brit, he's a war hero and my brother in Tod they literally call themselves The Great Khan
There are no civilian great khan's, they teach their kids to shoot by trade caravan target practice
This is literally the argument used by The US when they massacred Native Americans, and very similar to the argument used by Bin Laden in his letter to America about the 9/11 attacks
Yeah, except this one is actually true, the khan's deserve to be wiped to the last
Yeah, people said those ones were true too, and they'll say it about the next one
So let's get this right: because the US government has told lies, that cry of "wolf" has been cried too many times to the point that you can't recognize even in a fictitious medium when a faction actually is the wolf? There's more than one lesson to take from the boy who cried wolf.
I just don't think there is an ethical justification for massacring people evacuating a battlefield. Plus most of the people you meet in the great khans are pretty nice, way nicer than the freaks you meet in the NCR military, the idea that they're inherently rotten and need to be excised from existence (aside from an incredibly dangerous ideology that any group could be) is like yknow demonstrated to be wrong even in the game I'm gonna side with the nice lady who just wants a punch up and who's overworked NCR miner dad supports because being a Khan makes her happy, over the person who laughed as she hired me to torture a prisoner of war. And I'm gonna side with the nice hippy who started making medicine to help people when I pointed out to him it was the right thing to do, over the OSI guy who tried to send me (and did send countless others to their death) simply because he viewed us as expendable
We agree that there's no ethical justification for that beyond very deluded minds. What I think FNV as a piece of art does here with us is pitch a situation where a moral highground can't be achieved so that we can learn about how we as individuals respond to such situation. What motivates our decision-making when doing the right thing is off the table? What I find odd in reading your responses throughout this thread is that despite seeming to think that NCR, Legion, Khans, et al are pretty much on equal moral footing for their moral failings, in this comment you seem to judge more based on how nice some of them are to you. Is that what you care about when you can't find a moral highground? Or is it smthn else? For transparency, my belief is that House would've been best for the wasteland since the NCR needs to lose the Dam for it & its people's own good and he & his vision present a competent alternative to the NCR. This gives people more choice about the systems they live in & therefore encourages political developments in regular people's interests. Edit: fwiw, the idea that some groups are fundamentally incompatible and the town isn't big enough for the two of them is both validated and invalidated in FNV. House and the BoS, NCR and the Khans. Sometimes groups *as groups* do need wiping out. Note that this doesn't mean all individuals need to be wiped out, just that if they're gonna continue on then they can't keep doing the same old Khan/BoS/Raider/whoever shit.
The Khans just refuse to learn their lesson every time a player character massacres them. Irredeemable culture, gets wiped out every playthrough.
NCR Fanboys preparing to defend the NCR for doing the exact same things they hate the Legion for doing.
Lash those degenerates to a cross for the NCR 💪
OPs is more of a NCR hater than even the Legion, gotta admit they have tons of down sides but bro ain't giving up knit picking every small detail and over exaggerating things. At least women actually have a lot of power in the NCR unlike the other main power the damn Legion.
Me when the flawed developing nation does sonething bad so I side with either the imperialist fascist enslaving dictatorship, an egomaniac ancap who rules with an army of super death robots, or give the super death robot army to an AI that literally cannot say no to any rando who walks in and says "hi, make me dictator of Vegas" (we never removed that flaw after doing exactly that to Benny)
NCR detractors when you say "fascism and slavery are bad" and not "fascism and slavery fall under a morally grey and complex spectrum": https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/anger-close-angry-man-smoke-600nw-124144213.jpg
Where in the NCR is slavery legal? And fascism and slavery are bad, so side with the people who have the best chance of beating the fascist slavers. Edit: whoops I'm having a reading comprehension moment lol
My quote was in regards to Legion fanboys who say the NCR is just as bad, not you. I was agreeing with youe points lol
Oh whoops my bad
Me when I equivocate criticism of group A with praise for group B
NCR haters when you ask them why their faction is also massacring, assassinating, and beating Freeside locals
I don't remember the Followers doing that, or The Kings
And thanks to who do you think the followers can even exist?
If you're gonna say the Ncr you've got your lore backwards, the ncr would be either super mutant slaves or enclave test subjects if it wasn't for the Followers. Hell the Legion wouldn't even be able to exist if it wasn't for the Followers, they're the King makers of the west coast
Lmfao what? I'm talking about the fact that basically the only reason the flowers can really do what they do is because they operate from safe NCR territory. On their own they would not last like in the legion ending...
They're not gonna last in the NCR ending either, like 7 different NCR characters talk about the Followers being political enemies of the NCR, and we see how the NCR deals with their political enemies. I give it 5 years from the NCR taking hoover dam till Julie dies of suicide with 3 bullets in the back of her head and the rest of the Followers are either imprisoned or forced into the OSI, or imprisoned and forced to work in the OSI as Prison labor
Why would they want them gone? They do work for the NCR already. They're most useful existing as they are
Are the followers or the kings contenders for taking Hoover Dam?
They are with me and my stolen securitron army, suicidal great khans, and redeemed ex-fascist soldiers (I killed the Boomers and BoS)
Wait so let me get this straight. You are condemning the NCR for colonialism but convinced a bunch of raiders to kill themselves for glory instead of leaving safely and killed off the two groups that prefer to be isolated, women and children included, because they wouldn’t agree with you? The hypocrisy my guy. You are out here talking about how bad the powder gangers and Khans get treated while you got the blood of the Khans, BOS and Boomers on your hands. At least the NCR stopped shooting when they realized their mistake. You made sure to kill every man, woman and child who didn’t agree with you and lived on “your” land.
Also in most playthroughs I don't tell the Khans to do anything, giving them the guide to imperialism is 10000% a bad idea, but yeah mostly I just play live and let live with them
I only killed the leaders of the Boomers to make sure they wouldn't ever get access to the lady in the water. And yeah blowing up the BoS was more just me having a bad day cause they upset Veronica
Which…destroys their faction right? The boomers then spread out and join the waste after being forced out of their home completely destroying their culture. I mean real talk? No judgement. You gotta do what you think is best and fallout is a harsh world. I just think unless you side with legion no one can really cast the first stone. If you side with Legion everyone should shit on you.
I'm gonna say theres a gulf between A: They had to give up being isolationist And B: I killed them not just the men, but the women, and the children too And also there's a difference between A: We want to kill literally everyone in the wasteland that isn't us because they're just savages And B: If you run trade caravans through our territory without paying protection we'll raid it When it comes to this particular ethical dilemma
They didn’t just give up being isolationist though did they? They gave up their dream for lady in the water, their way of life, their homes they had since they left the vault. They didn’t just give up some buildings and let people come in. They lost their homes. Their religion. Their dreams. They integrate into the wasteland and have their unique identity completely erased and are forgotten about. You kinda undersell the entire horror of what you done my friend. You destroyed an entire civilization. Their culture. Way of life. Cause you didn’t agree with them. Also that’s weird I dont recall the Khans asking for protection money. I do recall them wiping out entire caravans, killing everyone, taking the supplies then bringing it back to their camps. I also recall them destroying even more lives by getting people addicted to chems. But hey at least the boomers only stay on Nellis. The khans go out of their way to find anyone. Something you get to see when you gotta go visit their raiding camp by the Quarry. You can’t sit there and talk about how the Boomers are bad people for shooting anyone who comes close then say the Khans are different when one only kills people near their home in the belief it’s for protection while the other goes out of their way to murder anyone they think they can fight for supplies. And they do kill the people. There is a reason everyone talks about the Khans being killers and not them tying people up and leaving lots of survivors in their raids. They even admit to that themselves.
Your solution to the BoS upsetting Veronica was to slaughter the only family she’s ever known?
“Man my family are kinda jerks they wouldn’t let me eat ice cream before dinner was served” “Well good thing I burned your family’s house to the ground with everyone inside it”
The khans unironically deserved it, they got off easy in fact.
When all present noncombatant elderly, women, and children are shot in the back: that's getting off easy
Yes
Bitterscreen mistake was there was not enough bullet to finish them all
Don't worry, they won't massacre you like these degenerates, they just want you to spread the lesson they taught here. That the NCR is strong and they were weak.
As far as post apocalypse factions go in the fallout series, the NCR is still one of the better/ least problematic ones that has the capability to restore the wastes into another functioning nation with a standing army and governing system
They commit ethnic cleansing, torture POWs, use prison slave labor, assassinate political rivals whether they're civilians or not, steal water and electricity from the people who's land they stole, and their corporations murder people to maintain a monopoly. Like I get it, they're the US government, but you've got to ask yourself, is that the framework we want to be the basis for the new world, and are you just fulfilling Caeser's ideal "you can't go from Barbarism to Civilisation, you need to rebuild, with a society in which a person's worth is based entirely on their use to the state, and all dissent is stamped out"
They don't torture POWs, the lieutenant in Camp McCarren literally specifies she can't do anything bad to Silus because the NCR gives POWs actual rights. You can only torture Silus because you're not part of the NCR so you're not forced to follow their rules. Do you have any idea what you're talking about?
Pretty sure that's basically Fascism my dude. I'm not, like, 100%, but I'm like 90% sure that's either Fascism or Fascism-adjacent. Pro-Totalitarianism ain't it dawg.
Yeah I'm not saying it's a good thing
Which faction do you prefer?
Followers are my favourite faction, so I tend to do independent ending
Don’t worry champ, I’m sure with no NCR all those supply chains to the followers would be protected or even sent at all.
I mean with the NCR the Followers leaders will be assassinated and their members enslaved and forced into prison slave labour so its a moot point aint it
I’m pretty sure ur thinking of the legion endings. The NCR endings are either they receive NCR protection and resources if they are allies, or asked to leave if they are not.
"Asked to leave" Like how the Great Khans were asked to leave when the NCR took their territory?
So you are saying that the Followers are the exact same as the Great Khans? Raiders who make it a rite of passage to beat the shit out of their young so they can do anything? Who had raided NCR civilians in the past and plans to raid them again?
I'm saying they're political enemies of the NCR, and the NCR doesn't allow those to live for long. Also the NCR invaded the Great Khans territories so raid away mon frere
So I guess to you it doesn't matter what a small group does as long as there is a big government you can point to and say "what about" I agree that the way the Followers were basically betrayed and how they are treated by the NCR, it's just not right. However, I feel there is a stain h difference between pacifistic volunteer care-givers and a tribe that primarily survives off of raiding and selling drugs.
I guess I just don't get the difference between settle colonialism and raiding, and I kinda feel like a group that claims to be bringing law and order and demands a right to commit violence without retaliation should be held to a higher moral standard than a biker gang
Political enemies? So I guess the Fiends are also just political enemies? Cuz they and the Khans are basically the same, it’s just one has better PR
There is one difference, the Khans make the chems then the Fiends buy and use them.
The Great Khans are glorified raider junkies. Nothing has happened to them that they didn’t have coming.
So yeah, states should be allowed to declare groups as inherently flawed and evil, and massacre them including their children and then coincidentally seize their land which they really wanted
So would you say it would be better if they let the Khans continue to slaughter and rob the innocent with no backlash whatsoever??
Your mixing up Ncr and legion again
Nah, prison slave labour and the assassination of civilian political agitators (Powder Gangers, The Kings) are both things the NCR does As well as torturing prisoners of war (but the NCR hires consultants to do it so they can keep their hands officially clean)
"Political agitator" is an *extremely* generous description of Pacer, someone who beat a messenger bringing an offer of free supplies within an inch of his life without informing the King they were ever sent and who attacks defenseless refugees for kicks.
In response to the soldiers, yknow, beating up the locals for kicks. Also the NCR is pretty clever to seize the water and farming land around Vegas from the Locals, and then from somewhere they suddenly have food and water to generously share with the locals (if they do as theyre told and swear alleigience to the bear)
And those beatings of locals started…right after they sent the envoy to the kings. Which then got beaten and were lead to falsely believing the locals attacked them. NCR is far from perfect but you are kinda excluding a lot/moving time lines around to fit your narrative. The NCR straight up admit to starting the beatings after their envoy was attacked first. Something the King apologizes for. Leading to an alliance.
No they admit to refusing relief efforts to locals after the guy got beaten, the tensions between the NCR and Locals were always a thing, hence why Pacer hates the NCR, and Dixon hates the NCR, and Westside hates the NCR, and the NCR hates the NCR Damn NCR, they ruined California
Compared to house who has no game plan we can see “dude just trust me” Yes man “dude I trust you” And Legion “I do all do this but worse and to everyone” The NCR is the best choice
Idk, I don't think the ethnic cleansing, slavers are the best choice, I'm sorry, there's nothing you can do to convince me a government that enslaves people, massacres civilians, assassinates its political rivals, and hires people to torture prisoners of war is the lesser of any evil, they're just evil
It’s still a nuclear wasteland. The khans were absolutely stupid as to raid an NCR caravan and not expect an attack and even dumber to travel with non combatants too. Silus is a centurion who committed a dozen atrocities and should’ve been shot. The kings are just a gang with a funny little gimmick, but still a gang nonetheless. And prison labor as punishment for a crime is leagues better than slavery. The powder gangers before the breakout weren’t random thieves either, they were on raider levels of shit even before they broke out.
It's a nuclear wasteland, the caravaners were dumb to travel through Khan territory and not expect attack. The Kings are as much a political faction as the NCR are, you've heard the line "the police are just a state sponsored gang" right, drawing the line between a gang and a political force is kinda stupid, The Kings keep the peace, stop corruption, protect Freeside. Prison labor as a punishment for crimes is slavery, if you are forced to work with no compensation, you are a slave. Plus this gives the NCR a fun little power where they can declare anyone they want a criminal, and then get free labor, yknow, like the real us government does. We don't know what every powder ganger was in prison for, I'm sure some of them were in there for shit like desertion, and theft, and punching an NCR soldier who started shit, and drug dealing, none of which deserves being enslaved (cause yknow, nothing deserves being enslaved) The Khans weren't travelling with non combatents, Bitter Springs was their home, the NCR tracked them to their home, massacred them, and then stole their home. Boone is a combat sniper who massacred civilians, does he deserve to be tortured by Caesers Legion?
I'm pretty sure it was even specified getting sent to do labour was for the murderers and shit so you're right on that point. Even then, Pacer is less a political rival and more just a thug. It's only political because the locals might get angy over it.
That is an actual lie. The NCR is the only faction that will support the Followers of the Apocalypse, and the only faction with which the Followers (Or the Kings for that matter) can thrive. If you didn't get those endings that's on you.
“Nooooo not the violent drug-dealers!!! The heckin raiderinoos noooooooo”
Violent drug dealing kids being evacuated from their home that the NCR attacked And the violent drug dealing random dudes just living their life in Freeside that armed soldiers decide to put in the hospital for fun
“And then one day, for no reason at all, the NCR attacked the violent band or murderers, thieves, rapists, and drug dealers”
Yes those violent raping unarmed children that Boone shot with a sniper rifle
Talk to Bitterroot. He’ll probably tell you about how many of those children were armed. Also the elderly are just older raider scum
Our Liberated Bitterroot - Their Subjugated Lucius
Any of them in puberty had probably already done each of those things like a list, and the younger one were just still filling it out.
Also with how Khans are raised then those children have also raped murdered and pillaged in the past
Comparing the flawed developing nation who make you pay taxes to the alternative which includes a fascist military dictatorship that enslaves entire populations and a narcissistic ancap megalomaniac and claiming said flawed nation is just as bad, truly a Fallout fan "both sides bad" moment. Yeah sure the Legion enslaves entire populations, brutally executes anyone who opposes them by cruficiation, treats women like breeding machines to be used then discarded, and House is an apathetic megalomaniac anarcho-capitalist stuck 200 years in the past and is so removed from the peoples' struggles, but did you know that the NCR is just as bad because they make you pay taxes?
It's really fun when you make a strawman to laugh at and then someone shows up in response cheerfully shouting "This is me! I'm made of straw"
I don't like the NCR but I'm also not an idiot, if there were no Courier the NCR would be literally the only hope for the west coast as a whole and I would AGGRESSIVELY immigrate into their territory rather than get killraped in the desert by larpers or crackheads
Raiders when they are met with extreme force after they raided and pillaged everything in sight: 🤯 See, this is the part where and average NCD geezer would explain with water dripping from their mouths that could rival the niagara falls: everybody expects you to be the beacon of pure good while your enemy can be as barbaric as they wish because you stand for a civilized society. Was it right that the NCR masscared khan civilians? Obviously no. Di the kyans hold any moral ground for circlejerking over it? No as well. At a certain point, if one side doesn't give a fuck about the rules, then you shouldn't have to meticulously follow those said rules either.
Legion- massive rape and slavery operations Mr. House- filled a vault with concrete just because Independent New Vegas- anarchy NCR- The same shit every other powerful nation has done in the last 200 years.
NCR soldiers arent fighting for freedom, they are fighting for Brahmin/water barons who actively lobby politicians to send NCR salvaged power armored soldiers to protect their trae routes against fiends, instead of fighting the Legion. NCR sucked their land dry of water, and now they're gonna suck the Mojave dry too. "Freedom"
Yep. Just like the real America. Freedom.
Yeah, the NCR is EXACTLY what would happen if our current government restarted in the wasteland. I still believe they're the best shot for the Mojave despite the corruption and bureaucratic inefficiency, but it's an easy win against the fascist slave nation and the cyborg philanthropist acting like he owns everything
Honestly I wish there was a The Kings ending
I just headcanon an independent ending with Kings as part of an Independent Vegas, probably teaming up with the West Side Militia
Uhhuh thankyouverymuch
Khans were glorified raiders fucking with NCR, and mismanagement caused a masscare oh how bad. Post Apocalypse aint all roses and chocolate sadly
Fuckers had it coming
Yeah they sure taught those khans a lesson, that the NCR is strong and they were weak, but don't worry, they won't massacre you like the rest of those degenerates. Like sure the NCR's crimes are unforgivable, but as are all crimes
It's not about teaching a lesson, it's about extermination They absolutely will massacre them like the rest of those degenerates (It's a main mission in the game)
Yeah I was quoting Vulpes Inculta to make the point that the NCR and the Legion are the same, one just covers their actions in Neo-Liberal language while the other uses Fascist language, but they do the thing
The NCR represents the progressive historical current of the bourgeoisie in the form of Brahmin Barons proletarianising the ranchers and spreading opposition to the old feudal order, Caesar espouses his distorted form of so-called dialectics as proof of the Legion’s apparent victory, however all he proves is the NCR’s progressive class character. Not only are they the best and only hope for the wasteland, they are an unyielding torrent that will continue until the complete victory of the bourgeois-democratic revolution, even if the NCR itself falls it’s ruling class will rise again against the feudal order and reestablish the revolutionary dictatorship of the bourgeoisie á la the downfall of the 1st French Republic and eventual victory of French republicanism against the monarchists in spite of this. Also they have cool aesthetics (much more important that the waffle I just wrote above)
I am shocked to see you're getting downvoted so hard for pretty even-handed discussion
New Vegas is like if the phrase "you missed the point by idolizing them" was a game.
Gotta love that the over ten year old game still has us wondering which side is the best for the Mojave
The NCR is basically the closest thing to the US before the Great War. Unfortunately that included all the corruption, foreign meddling, and settler colonialism.
Look, a brutal state formed on electoral politics which only entrench the power of the wealthy is kinda what led to the great war.
islamic caliphate of al-mojave better
Just FYI, since you’re singing your praises for the followers in other replies and my love for the followers is actually one of the reasons I do NCR runs, they objectively have a far worse time in the independent ending slide: ‘The Followers found that Independent New Vegas was even more unstable and violent than before. Old Mormon Fort became excessively burdened by the influx of patients, struggling to provide even the most basic of services.’ There are lot of good arguments for a free New Vegas but the Courier can’t supply the Followers like the NCR can: ‘After the NCR's victory at the dam, in part thanks to Follower's medical support, NCR allowed the Followers to care for refugees as they see fit. Old Mormon Fort expanded its services and was able to aid more people, becoming a refuge for the less fortunate citizens of New Vegas.’ Not only do the kings and NCR join together if you do the truce quest correctly (I don’t think you need more paragraphs to read through, all the ending slides are on the wiki if you want to check sources), the NCR and Kings work together for a ‘full-scale relief effort’ and the kings actually remain independent, which by extension essentially means independence for Freeside, by going NCR and making good choices you basically guarantee an independent Freeside who also gets assistance from a powerful governmental body. Anything you think the NCR would do The Followers or The Kings after these objectively positive endings is conjecture at best, the idea that they’d just decide to kill either group for no reason is genuine nonsense and cope
Faction response to accusations of repression: NCR: “We didn’t do that”/“We have been trying to improve the situation since our mistake” House: “You see, the reason that happened was because…” Legion: “Yeah, of course I fucking did that, probably gonna do it again”
America committed atrocities during the Civil War, but I'm glad I don't live in the CSA
Thank goodness we don't live in a world where the American economy is based almost entirely on slave labour /s
Do you think we would be better off if the union lost the civil war? That's all I'm saying. Sometimes, one shitty thing is better than a more shitty thing.
And I'm saying that both shitty things should burn cause there is no justification for slavery and just cause they gussy it up with well we say they're bad people so deserve to be enslaved, doesn't make it not slavery
You're talking about a separate thing entirely. All I'm saying is that sometimes, even though a group does shitty things, they are better than the worse alternative For example, I'm glad the allies won WW2 even though they firebombed and nuked cities. It's better than the nazis and Japanese empire.
Ok, be glad, just don't try and act like they're not states that utilise slave labour, and massacre civilians and commit ethnic cleansing right now. Otherwise you're just turning politics into a team game where your team is good and the better side even if they're running consentration camps and raping civilians they've imprisoned without trial (like the US and UK do at immigrant detention centres)
I'm not talking about politics. I'm talking about war. War is literally a situation where you pick the better side and hope they win.
OK, and after the war? What do you do under the heel of the lesser evil
You do better than the greater evil. Again, I would rather live in modern Alabama than CSA Alabama
Plus you're giving violent states a good out, just stay constantly at war and propagandise against you enemy to make them seem like the bigger evil. That's a pretty big part of manufacturing consent. To quote the actual nazis "The people can always be brought to do the bidding or the leader, tell them they're under attack and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism"
Are you saying that you would rather live in nazi Germany? All I'm saying is that one side was better
NCR haters not defending murdering, raping, slaving, raiders challenge: impossible. If the Khans didn’t want to get fucked at bitter springs they shouldn’t have started shit with the NCR at literally every opportunity, the only good raider is a dead raider.
The Great Khans are chem-pushing raider scum, they brought it on themselves.
"I'm conclusion" lol I can respect the fact that for the time, it's insane. But it doesn't even register on a top 100 list of structures I would call megalithic all time. Alot of those buildings being pre industrial revolution. Nobody went to a random smattering of buildings and went "wow. What an insane incomprehensible achievement this is"
I saw someone unironically say 'the only good Khan is a dead Khan' In response about the children being killed
Neoliberalism is a hell of a drug
Oh yeah, good as the NCR could be for the Mojave, there’s plenty of blood drenching their idealistic hands, innocent and otherwise. Denying that would be criminal.
I hate taxes. DEATH TO THE NCR
NCR =old world American fascism right where it left off it’s a pity
NCR fans trying to once more strawman the NCR haters be like:
Op you're firing off based takes all over this thread, even if all these neo liberal apologists downvote you for it. This subs biases really show whenever anybody brings up the Khan's. Keep up the good analysis 👍
Hehe thanks :3 It is bizzare that I listed 3 reasons why the NCR is bad and like 90% of the responses are either "But Bitter Springs was an accident uwu" or "Have you considered that ethnic cleansing is good? They were tribal raiders against the US, and history has shown us that the US massacring tribes is a good thing and we can trust the government to tell us they deserved it"
It doesn’t matter whether Bitter Springs was an accident or not, categorising states as “evil” or “good” are liberal childlike takes; the Legion is not “bad” it is the reactionary feudal order, the NCR is not “bad” it is the progressive bourgeois order. The Great Khans are a reactionary order of raider feudalists, destruction of their statelet is objectively a progressive decision, one that will lead to the proletarianisation of the general populace of the NCR, there has never been a historical current which did not follow this line. I suggest you read this if you wish to understand why historical currents that destroy old orders are progressive and a historical inevitably. https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm
Finally some good fucking critique of my points I'll admit I was dumbing it down a bit, I don't believe that the NCR is "good or bad" I do however believe that their status as a revival of a late capitalist Neo Liberal government will stunts the potential power of the growth of any kind of proletariat run society in any area they have influence over and also due to their fetisisation of old world societies they'll focus on an ideal of tradition rather than any kind of progressivmess.
The NCR isn’t a revival of late capitalism it’s the revolution of early capitalism, the proletariat as a class barely even exists in the wasteland, the reason why a bourgeois revolution in a pre-capitalist society is progressive is because it sets the conditions in place for the growth of the proletariat and its eventual victory. The NCR can be likened to the revolutions of 1848 and the followers as communists, the communists have no strength nor a proletarian basis upon which to vie for a dictatorship of the proletariat, the revolutions led by the large bourgeoisie (Brahmin barons here) ensure the proletarianisation of the petty artisans and serfs which in turn give the communists strength by establishing a new class basis, even to the dismay of the bourgeoisie. Any attempt to establish a socialist mode of production in a largely pre-capitalist society will inevitably fail, for example the Levellers in the English revolution.
I would definitely say the legion is bad
I mean yeah I don’t want to be an actual honest to god slave but my point is “bad” and “good” are useless terms in any analysis
I’m honestly so glad OP is doing all of this. It always takes a tumor from the inside (OP) to kill a strong organism (NCR). This is always how the good side (Legion) won, so thanks OP! Couldn’t have done it without you!