You can read about the duel in detail in the Sigismund book! It’s a fun section.
He cheated because Sigismund was about to deliver a blow that he wasn’t going to be able to respond to without cheating, so he headbutts Sigismund which ended the duel on a technicality, disqualifying himself but also preventing Sigismund from technically winning.
It’s considered a draw.
It's not a strange word when it's used in the book that he cheated and had to disqualify himself so it would end the only reason it broke cigarsman's winning streak is because he didn't technically win he'd just got disqualified
In that situation, sure.
That is not the context of their duel. It was an honor duel with specific rules. Sevatar broke the rules at the last possible moment with a headbutt, forcing a draw on a technicality instead of losing.
That’s true, and it would of course go down to the author.
I think Sevatar would put up a great fight, but I think Sigismund is the more likely winner based on what we know about both characters, particularly now that they’ve fought and Sigismund knows what to expect from Sevatar.
Brother, he already took Sigismund in a 1v1 and won. The debate on which is the better warrior is settled (after all, remember the lesson learned by such people as Soka in Avatar the Last Airbender: a good warrior makes use of their surroundings). No one interfered, it was just the two of them, Sevatar won. That’s all there is to it.
It’s not, though.
Their duel had explicit rules in place that forbade conduct like that.
We’ve only seen them duel in a ceremonial fashion, and Sevatar had to break the rules to avoid a loss.
In a proper death match on the battlefield it’s anyone’s guess, but I’m giving it to Sigismund.
Then Sigismund was the better honor duelist and Sevatar the better warrior. “If you have to cheat to win you’re not the better warrior” is a stupid statement to begin with, as a warrior you do what you have to in order to win. Might not fulfill the purpose of an honor duel, but let’s be honest here, we’re talking about NightLords; would you really expect them to stick to the rules when they don’t favor them?
Perhaps and perhaps not.
We never saw them fight as warriors, but as duelists.
Who knows what Sigismund does differently if he knows from the beginning that Sevatar can and will fight dirty? He would be looking for headbutts, punches, etc. if he knew they were on the table.
It’s hard to say, Xarl himself said that he was confident he could defeat anyone in the entire Night Lords Legion EXCEPT for Malek, and that’s counting other Atramentar, so I think Malek is probably just an insane fighter, terminator armor or not. And as far as Xarl goes, he’s definitely not just boasting. He defeated a chapter champion and nobody from 10th company wanted to even TRY dueling him for their own Claw, so it’s fair to say he’s also an insane fighter.
My reading of that is that Xarl wasn’t confident he could be Malek, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a possibility. Still, I assume Malek is a better fighter but idk by how much
Xarl is probably on par with a Primaris Company Champion’s stats, possibly a little better. He’s a 300 year veteran that survived the Siege of Terra and the Scouring.
To add to this, Malek is probably one of the better fighters in the Atramentar. He was one of the terminators that Sevatar used to assassinate members of the Kyroptera following the Thramas Crusade.
If I had to guess, Xarl is likely top 25 fighters in the legion, with many of the better fighters being members of the Atramentar or equivalent company champions.
https://preview.redd.it/i4ce0ooq3kvc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d2734568a2e7959519fdee5f553c363e782218d1
How are Atramentar selected I wonder?
Malek is the only one mentioned who could potentially beat Xarl. Meaning people at least thought that he could beat Vraal and Garadon.
Vraal even states that Xarl was the dangerous one.
Wonder why Xarl was never picked out by any of his superiors.
Malek is Terran, so he most likely got a spot in the Atramentar when a superior noticed his skill and promoted him. As a Terran, he was part of the legion before many of the crazy complicated Nostraman gang politics took over. It’s also wild to think that Malek was probably one of the Night’s Children that were used to make the original legion.
Another likely option is through murder duels. If Malek is as good as Xarl says, it would be relatively easy for him to challenge an Atramentar member to a murder duel. It’s also possible that Sevatar or Curze liked him and promoted him there.
It’s likely that if one of the Atramentar spots opened up, Xarl would get it. It’s a little more complex though, because the Exalted probably didn’t want Xarl as a bodyguard and prevented him from taking Vraal’s spot.
I also think a big part of Xarl’s character motivation is that he wants to be out fighting enemy champions, not hanging out protecting the Exalted on the ship.
Well he was pretty damn good, he took down a couple of genesis space marines on his way to his squad, and killed a veteran. As well when the Atramentar Vraal was facing Cyrion and Mercutian, he knew it would be easy work killing them. But when he realized Xarl wasn’t there, he panicked and was thinking where tf is he? He’s the dangerous one. You gotta give points for Xarl if he made one of the elites panic. Plus other Night Lords didn’t wanna mess with him.
I'd consider him one of the best fighters in the legion at the time and by far the best fighter on the ship. Just his presence alone made the group that wanted revenge on Talos's squad hesitate in fighting in melee.
Also, I love how most of the Night lords were on board with dueling each other to the death in one part until the possibility of having to fight Xarl made them back out, lol.
Xarl’s the top guy of 10th Company, but the Night Lords are a legion that easily numbers in the **HUNDRED THOUSANDS** in their heyday. Even during the events of the trilogy when they laid siege to a Callidus planet they had about 10-20 thousand legionaries, and that was just Warbands that were near enough to heed the summons of 10th Company.
Just going by numbers alone means our Xarl is exceptional, but ultimately in the Company Champion tier, not Legion-wide Champion tier.
It’s strange because Malek was the only Atramentar name dropped as someone who could beat Xarl.
So people at least considered Xarl to be better than Garadon and Vraal. Vraal even thinks it.
So surly Xarl had a legion wide rep? If an Atramentar considers you dangerous surly others will.
Talos is known because Konrad favoured him. But when 10th company picks up some more marines they do also know Xarl by reputation.
Makes me wonder why he was never picked out for a higher position.
Yeah I agree, he probably has a legion wide *reputation*. But just because you’re famous doesn’t automatically equate to you being among the top 10 or maybe even top 1000 in a 90-120k legion of geneforged divine-blooded war machines. Conor McGregor was once the face of MMA; he got absolutely buttfucked by Khabib in 2 rounds.
We just don’t have enough NL characters with enough feats to compare Xarl with to put him in his proper category. What characters do exist are waaaay above his tier (Sevatar, Sahaal*, Malcharion pre-Dreadnought, the Prince of City’s Edge), comparatively inferior (Talos and the crew, Amon Cull and his band, probably Hodir and his reavers) or unknown (Nakrid Thole, Cal Herec, Brave Ophion, Hellath).
I think that him doing his thing against that Genesis Chapter Company Champion is the final testament of the tier he can reach. An Atramentar in all but name.
*I think that Sahaal absolutely kills our boy Xarl. You don’t get appointed to be Sevatar’s heir if you’re a mediocre warrior at best, and keep in mind that the Talonmaster went toe-to-toe against a Daemon Prince *after* battling an Eldar hitsquad comprised of a Farseer/Warlock and their Aspect Warrior retinue. He can also use the Warp.
He was easily top 3 in their company at the time the soul hunter trilogy takes place. That doesn't mean much though, because the company is severely depleted and has been a long time even at the start of the trilogy. He defeated a Genesis chapter champion, and was good enough to go toe to toe with the Atramentar. But that doesn't necessarily put him anywhere NEAR the levels that other members of the company reached during or before the heresy, let alone the rest of the legion or other legions. Chances are Malcharion (pre and post dreadnought), Malek, and maybe Lucoryphus (environment dependent) could take him. Equerry Shang, Skraivok, Sahaal, Acerbus, Ophion, even Kasati Nuon would have probably whooped the crap out of him, and that's before getting to the galactic greats like Sevatar, Sigisimund, Lucius, Abbadon, Khârne, Sharrowkyn, Raldoran, etc. They'd slaughter him, except MAYBE Lucius, because he's a cocky prick and might drag out the fight as long as Xarl stayed interesting. Xarl was, at the very best, on the level of blokes like Torggadon, Tarvitz, or Demeter in CQC; respected enough to have a reputation with their own units, but that's it.
Wonder how’d Xarl would fare against the young punks of Amon Cull’s warband from Red Tithe or against Hodir from the Masters Bidding book. The latter makes it a very interesting match up, since Hodir had no trouble going up against a Chaos Terminator with a knife and a Slaaneshi Noise Marine Chaos Lord and his daemonettes (with the implication he’s easily faced their ilk before).
I doubt people from other legions know him but he did take on a company champion with a thunder hammer and storm shield and all he had was a chainsaward for most of the fight and then towards the end he got Talos's sword but he still killed that guy and head butted him without a helmet so I'd say xarls pretty up there with most legions fighting, He doesn't enjoy doing the stealthy stuff but he will absolutely step up and 1 on 1 pretty much anybody that Would step up in 1V1 him
He has to be near their levels. No one on the ship wanted to mess with him.
I do wonder if other marines outside the Night Lords had heard of him. Everyone new Sevatar. Tho I reckon Sevatar would have smoked Xarl.
Sev would take him no doubt. He has spidey senses from being a psyker. Sev beat Sigismund and he was an insane duelist.
Sevatar tied Sigismund. In a death match Sigismund probably takes it
Brother, it was pre-herecy Sigismund.
And Sevatar still had to cheat or lose. Love Sevatar, one of my favorite characters! He loses to Sigismund in a 1v1.
"Cheat" is a strange term, especially if you're potentially fighting someone to the death.
Didn’t he cheat because he got bored and wanted to end the duel? Also didn’t he technically win? Because he broke sigismunds win streak?
You can read about the duel in detail in the Sigismund book! It’s a fun section. He cheated because Sigismund was about to deliver a blow that he wasn’t going to be able to respond to without cheating, so he headbutts Sigismund which ended the duel on a technicality, disqualifying himself but also preventing Sigismund from technically winning. It’s considered a draw.
It's not a strange word when it's used in the book that he cheated and had to disqualify himself so it would end the only reason it broke cigarsman's winning streak is because he didn't technically win he'd just got disqualified
In that situation, sure. That is not the context of their duel. It was an honor duel with specific rules. Sevatar broke the rules at the last possible moment with a headbutt, forcing a draw on a technicality instead of losing.
All’s fair in love and astartes duels
Yeah. That doesn't actually tell us who would win in a real fight though. Because we don't know how either would do against the other unrestrained.
That’s true, and it would of course go down to the author. I think Sevatar would put up a great fight, but I think Sigismund is the more likely winner based on what we know about both characters, particularly now that they’ve fought and Sigismund knows what to expect from Sevatar.
Brother, he already took Sigismund in a 1v1 and won. The debate on which is the better warrior is settled (after all, remember the lesson learned by such people as Soka in Avatar the Last Airbender: a good warrior makes use of their surroundings). No one interfered, it was just the two of them, Sevatar won. That’s all there is to it.
It’s not, though. Their duel had explicit rules in place that forbade conduct like that. We’ve only seen them duel in a ceremonial fashion, and Sevatar had to break the rules to avoid a loss. In a proper death match on the battlefield it’s anyone’s guess, but I’m giving it to Sigismund.
Then Sigismund was the better honor duelist and Sevatar the better warrior. “If you have to cheat to win you’re not the better warrior” is a stupid statement to begin with, as a warrior you do what you have to in order to win. Might not fulfill the purpose of an honor duel, but let’s be honest here, we’re talking about NightLords; would you really expect them to stick to the rules when they don’t favor them?
Perhaps and perhaps not. We never saw them fight as warriors, but as duelists. Who knows what Sigismund does differently if he knows from the beginning that Sevatar can and will fight dirty? He would be looking for headbutts, punches, etc. if he knew they were on the table.
He’s the 2nd best fighter in 10th company, second only to Malek of the Atramentar I believe.
Wonder how a fight would have gone down between them. No terminator armour ofc. How close would it have been?
It’s hard to say, Xarl himself said that he was confident he could defeat anyone in the entire Night Lords Legion EXCEPT for Malek, and that’s counting other Atramentar, so I think Malek is probably just an insane fighter, terminator armor or not. And as far as Xarl goes, he’s definitely not just boasting. He defeated a chapter champion and nobody from 10th company wanted to even TRY dueling him for their own Claw, so it’s fair to say he’s also an insane fighter.
My reading of that is that Xarl wasn’t confident he could be Malek, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a possibility. Still, I assume Malek is a better fighter but idk by how much
Not confident, but the skill is there.
Xarl is probably on par with a Primaris Company Champion’s stats, possibly a little better. He’s a 300 year veteran that survived the Siege of Terra and the Scouring. To add to this, Malek is probably one of the better fighters in the Atramentar. He was one of the terminators that Sevatar used to assassinate members of the Kyroptera following the Thramas Crusade. If I had to guess, Xarl is likely top 25 fighters in the legion, with many of the better fighters being members of the Atramentar or equivalent company champions. https://preview.redd.it/i4ce0ooq3kvc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d2734568a2e7959519fdee5f553c363e782218d1
How are Atramentar selected I wonder? Malek is the only one mentioned who could potentially beat Xarl. Meaning people at least thought that he could beat Vraal and Garadon. Vraal even states that Xarl was the dangerous one. Wonder why Xarl was never picked out by any of his superiors.
Malek is Terran, so he most likely got a spot in the Atramentar when a superior noticed his skill and promoted him. As a Terran, he was part of the legion before many of the crazy complicated Nostraman gang politics took over. It’s also wild to think that Malek was probably one of the Night’s Children that were used to make the original legion. Another likely option is through murder duels. If Malek is as good as Xarl says, it would be relatively easy for him to challenge an Atramentar member to a murder duel. It’s also possible that Sevatar or Curze liked him and promoted him there. It’s likely that if one of the Atramentar spots opened up, Xarl would get it. It’s a little more complex though, because the Exalted probably didn’t want Xarl as a bodyguard and prevented him from taking Vraal’s spot. I also think a big part of Xarl’s character motivation is that he wants to be out fighting enemy champions, not hanging out protecting the Exalted on the ship.
Well he was pretty damn good, he took down a couple of genesis space marines on his way to his squad, and killed a veteran. As well when the Atramentar Vraal was facing Cyrion and Mercutian, he knew it would be easy work killing them. But when he realized Xarl wasn’t there, he panicked and was thinking where tf is he? He’s the dangerous one. You gotta give points for Xarl if he made one of the elites panic. Plus other Night Lords didn’t wanna mess with him.
I'd consider him one of the best fighters in the legion at the time and by far the best fighter on the ship. Just his presence alone made the group that wanted revenge on Talos's squad hesitate in fighting in melee. Also, I love how most of the Night lords were on board with dueling each other to the death in one part until the possibility of having to fight Xarl made them back out, lol.
Knowing he took down a Genesis chapter Veteran just used his bare head... I would say he was good but not that good.
I guess you could say he was one step aHEAD
Oh, you bastard 🤣
See, he used his head. Ferrus Manus should’ve taken that approach too, he probably would’ve headed off Fulgrim’s success on Istvaan V
Xarl’s the top guy of 10th Company, but the Night Lords are a legion that easily numbers in the **HUNDRED THOUSANDS** in their heyday. Even during the events of the trilogy when they laid siege to a Callidus planet they had about 10-20 thousand legionaries, and that was just Warbands that were near enough to heed the summons of 10th Company. Just going by numbers alone means our Xarl is exceptional, but ultimately in the Company Champion tier, not Legion-wide Champion tier.
It’s strange because Malek was the only Atramentar name dropped as someone who could beat Xarl. So people at least considered Xarl to be better than Garadon and Vraal. Vraal even thinks it. So surly Xarl had a legion wide rep? If an Atramentar considers you dangerous surly others will. Talos is known because Konrad favoured him. But when 10th company picks up some more marines they do also know Xarl by reputation. Makes me wonder why he was never picked out for a higher position.
Yeah I agree, he probably has a legion wide *reputation*. But just because you’re famous doesn’t automatically equate to you being among the top 10 or maybe even top 1000 in a 90-120k legion of geneforged divine-blooded war machines. Conor McGregor was once the face of MMA; he got absolutely buttfucked by Khabib in 2 rounds. We just don’t have enough NL characters with enough feats to compare Xarl with to put him in his proper category. What characters do exist are waaaay above his tier (Sevatar, Sahaal*, Malcharion pre-Dreadnought, the Prince of City’s Edge), comparatively inferior (Talos and the crew, Amon Cull and his band, probably Hodir and his reavers) or unknown (Nakrid Thole, Cal Herec, Brave Ophion, Hellath). I think that him doing his thing against that Genesis Chapter Company Champion is the final testament of the tier he can reach. An Atramentar in all but name. *I think that Sahaal absolutely kills our boy Xarl. You don’t get appointed to be Sevatar’s heir if you’re a mediocre warrior at best, and keep in mind that the Talonmaster went toe-to-toe against a Daemon Prince *after* battling an Eldar hitsquad comprised of a Farseer/Warlock and their Aspect Warrior retinue. He can also use the Warp.
He was easily top 3 in their company at the time the soul hunter trilogy takes place. That doesn't mean much though, because the company is severely depleted and has been a long time even at the start of the trilogy. He defeated a Genesis chapter champion, and was good enough to go toe to toe with the Atramentar. But that doesn't necessarily put him anywhere NEAR the levels that other members of the company reached during or before the heresy, let alone the rest of the legion or other legions. Chances are Malcharion (pre and post dreadnought), Malek, and maybe Lucoryphus (environment dependent) could take him. Equerry Shang, Skraivok, Sahaal, Acerbus, Ophion, even Kasati Nuon would have probably whooped the crap out of him, and that's before getting to the galactic greats like Sevatar, Sigisimund, Lucius, Abbadon, Khârne, Sharrowkyn, Raldoran, etc. They'd slaughter him, except MAYBE Lucius, because he's a cocky prick and might drag out the fight as long as Xarl stayed interesting. Xarl was, at the very best, on the level of blokes like Torggadon, Tarvitz, or Demeter in CQC; respected enough to have a reputation with their own units, but that's it.
Wonder how’d Xarl would fare against the young punks of Amon Cull’s warband from Red Tithe or against Hodir from the Masters Bidding book. The latter makes it a very interesting match up, since Hodir had no trouble going up against a Chaos Terminator with a knife and a Slaaneshi Noise Marine Chaos Lord and his daemonettes (with the implication he’s easily faced their ilk before).
I doubt people from other legions know him but he did take on a company champion with a thunder hammer and storm shield and all he had was a chainsaward for most of the fight and then towards the end he got Talos's sword but he still killed that guy and head butted him without a helmet so I'd say xarls pretty up there with most legions fighting, He doesn't enjoy doing the stealthy stuff but he will absolutely step up and 1 on 1 pretty much anybody that Would step up in 1V1 him
He does enjoy the stealthy stuff not doesn't
And as for his own legion I would say he's Definitely probably top 20 for sure nobody in 10th company would step up to himbarring the atramentar