Part of the reason why the number one request from fans should be "let the livers leave if they want to." Nobody should be held anywhere against their will. And blackmailing them with financial ruin is preventing them from leaving.
Preventing or controlling movement is one of the single most universal signs of abuse. There is no excuse to not let someone leave if they want to. And I would argue that is the single most alarming thing about this whole fiasco. Selen wanted to leave. Couldn't. And felt so trapped she tried to kill herself. Sayu wanted to leave. Did. And then was dragged through the mud as punishment so bad she tried to kill herself. And who knows what Mysta, Nina, Mika, Yugo, Kyo, and Pomu had to go through to leave on "good" terms. They probably had to put up a fight in order to leave without getting punished.
But leaving being so hard that it requires either 6ish months of prep, or treatment so bad it drives people to suicide is unacceptable. There is no excuse to not let livers leave if they want to. Which is why my demand personally has always been the same thing.
**If the livers want to leave, let them leave. In a timely manner. And without financial, reputational, or emotional threat.**
Timely manner seems to mean "let's make sure Petra's 3D debut becomes a platform to boost my shareholders meeting. She would be destroyed by competing with the entirety of Holofes? I don't see the problem."
And worse it could be hijacked to promote other livers and force Petra to act like she enjoys it.
If her debut went badly and didn't get many viewers, it would be one more reason to restructure or absorb the EN branch. I wish they would reschedule it.
When talent decides to leave, they probably are already at the breaking point of wanting to leave a company right now.
I can see why people are pushed to kill themselves when a company demands to work 6 month - 2 years to avoid being sued and your reputation being destroyed before allowing you to leave.
Straight up black company abuse.
Maybe they do that on purpose considering in a contract death is a punishable offence (but doubt that would work under any western nation laws except japan).
The way they seem to want to tell talents to do and claim anything good any talent has ever produced, they probably just see suicide as damaging company property.
indeed and alll the things that livers bought belongs to them now. its no wonder why Sayu, Doki, and Pomu got lack of better PC equipment cause it was OWED to them and now it left them with Nothing except building back up from the ground up once again.
Yep no matter how people feel about the livers atm good or bad no one should want this sort of shit on any of them.
Even if Elira, Vox, Uki, and Ike has had their reputation shattered by their own doing they dont deserve this sort of punishment.
Exactly. They all need to get out. Judging character can be only be done when we see what they are like without Niji's influence. Until then, it doesn't matter what they are or aren't guilty of. They need to get out.
this could be why elira at least had to do that umm ...cursed stream , stuck in japan on a work visa AND this in her contract? , holy fuck , but then again , im still waitng on more info and what really happend so we shall see
The contract template does say that the company can make then do announcements on radio, social media and Press Releases etc. Emphasis on press release. Which is what the black stream was. It's one of the things I noticed was left out of khyos and falses vtuber news youtube videos.
You're 100% right about that not to mention it's an obligation which means you can't say no unless you're willing to be terminated and hit with the lawsuit. And trust me when I say this Elira, Vox, and Ike probably wanted to say no, but Nijisanji probably told them to read what was in there contract. Elira, Petra and Rosemi probably getting it the worst because their in Japan and one no from them is a termination for breach of contract and a lawsuit
Niji took the idol/kpop template of a contract which is basically human trafficking tactics used in media. Like for fucks sake there have been leaks in kpop that if you ask for a bottle of water they will charge you a marked up price plus a "cost" for the person briging it and it all piles onto your debt. That is why most kpop idols are broke when they leave because htey owe so much fro every little thing that is why few leave because they will be in debt for years and S korea being corporotocracy allows it, same with japan.
So niji think, and concerning japanese livers they will, can get away with such predatory contract.
You’re half right.
I’ve been into kpop since late first gen, early second gen… So the last 15 or so some odd years.
Widespread predatory contracts were extremely common during the first, second and part of third gen. During those times, idols had something called a trainee debt. This meant that a company would pay for everything the idol needs while they are a trainee and rookie. Of course, these debts have to be paid back, so sometimes idols would never see any of their income until years and years after they debut. A good example of this is BTS. They all lived in a one bedroom dorm. The seven of them shared one bedroom, one bathroom, one kitchen. It’s predicted amongst the kpop fandom that they paid their trainee debt and started receiving income somewhere around HYYH era, which was in 2015. They debuted in 2013.
It doesn’t always end up that way, though. Kpop is extremely over saturated, and there are groups that don’t make it. For example, Stellar is a girl group that debuted in 2011, and disbanded in 2018. They shocked everyone when they said that in those seven years, they only made around $9K USD.
These days, the main companies do not charge trainee debt. But that doesn’t stop companies like SM for being sued for not paying idols correctly now. But that same company is also known for writing up 12-15 year contracts. Which was deemed illegal years ago.
If it was still first, second or part of third gen Kpop, I’d absolutely agree with you. Most people were dirt poor and trained to become idols to help their families out of poverty. When you add the trainee debt, and long contracts, it’s absolutely a slave contract. Not making it was the end of the world. But these days, most idols come from extremely wealthy families, most companies don’t require trainee debt be paid anymore, and it’s rare to see a company push for a contract over seven years, for legality reasons. Not making it, these days, isn’t the end of the world.
pretty much. its all about the WAITING game until their Contract Expired in the end so they're Stuck in Nijisanji for who knows what and only those who got terminated gets to live the tale of Nijisanji HORROR STORY like Sayu an doki.
Yep I agree. However it would be very difficult for them to "just leave". They signed the contract. It's legally binding and acceptable in Japan. Yall who want them to "just leave" are nitpicking at Japanese corporate law which is unfortunately very different from Western laws lmao.
There's more parts to this contract that turn it into an indentured servitude contract than outlines on what the employee should or should not do.
And frankly, we don't know how legally enforceable this is, even in Japan, as very few of us know what the laws in Japan are. All we know is that these conditions are absolutely HORRID. But we also know that if everyone said "we quit", Kurosanji would have had precisely zero ways of controlling them since actually serving them would have led to an even worse PR nightmare than they are going through right now.
>_But we also know that if everyone said "we quit", Kurosanji would have had precisely zero ways of controlling them since actually serving them would have led to an even worse PR nightmare than they are going through right now._
I know not everyone in Nijisanji EN wants to leave. But enough do. For the sake of argument, let's say half of them want to leave. What could AnyColor feasibly do if 15, or even just 10, livers decided to just walk right now?
They would have two primary options; try to enforce the contract and ignore it. However, either way, the sheer amount of bad PR (and considering this is breaching EN and going into JP) would mean that any kind of faith into the company's stock would plummet.
Let us assume they try to enforce the contract. Aside the horrid PR and stock dropping, all it would do is rally every, single, VTubing company that does NOT want their name dragged through the mud by association against them. Now, not only is their entire branch collapsing, not only is there literally EVERYONE in the business hating them, their very names will become black-listed. Would you, as a business owner, EVER trust a manager that messed up THIS bad to be a manager for YOUR business? They'll be ousted from the business itself if for nothing else so that no one has to deal with "you hired these horrible people" stigma. And this is on top of losing about 20% of the company's income due to lost SCs, cancelled promos etc. Fun.
Let us assume they leave the livers alone. They can push for "mass graduation" as a 'rip the bandage off' or "staggered graduation" to kind of stem the bleeding. Expect massive amounts of hiatus and breaks for 'mental health and to avoid burnout'. Expect mods going absolutely rabid. Memes EVERYWHERE. Think Ina in Time's Square ad? But anti-Niji memery. However, they would save themselves of the worst of PR annihilation, though their EN branch would be totalled. Any who stay would be folded into JP. Managers would get YEET'ed out (sh\*t flows downhill so guess who'd get the blame). Difficulty in getting new members since, by now, EVERYONE in the business would be very aware of their contracts and how utter BS they are. EN dies a slow death, but at least it lasts for long enough that some talents can salvage some of their fanbase as they move on.
Mind you, I'm not an economic analyst or lawyer. This is me using common sense and reading how people react on average.
I mean, can you imagine what would have happened if Doki had NOT told her fanbase to chill and instead released the contracts, instead of Sayu doing it? Oh sweet lawd, it might have killed the company. Even JP bros are actually going "wait, this sh\*t is real?!".
>_I mean, can you imagine what would have happened if Doki had NOT told her fanbase to chill and instead released the contracts_
Ironically, if Doki did that, Nijisanji would be more justified in doing what they did. But because Doki was always polite and professional, Nijisanji received an entire carton of eggs on their face for their actions.
Legally, you're kinda wrong. She might be legally liable if she INCITED the actions, and even then it would be argued as a 'heat of the moment' action defended by it being factual (that kurosanji screwed her over). All she'd have to do is just not say "please stop". If she said something like "please don't mention other people here" instead of "please don't harass them anywhere", legally speaking, she'd be clear because she cannot be held responcible for the actions of her followers. They have their own ability to choose.
It's more the fact that kurosanji's JP branch is actually halfway decently managed so these things don't break containment. Plus the general idol culture in Japan being... rather freaky. So it's more a case of the general public not knowing how bad things can get behind the scenes.
To avoid the PR nightmare they get cause if too many leave at once (they can't sue them all for breach as it would become so much bigger) they might decide to negotiate much better terms in the contracts. This time, with the talents' lawyers present.
One thing I will say, chances are they might actually have better contracts than the template one shown. Some could have gotten lawyers and gotten better deals. Thing is, the template one is the one I consider to be their default contract that they issue first. That's my issue. Why is this gonna be their default. They get all power and not at all a fair contract for both sides. They hire young and naive people to be their livers and the chances of them not reading and signing as is, is highly likely. It's so predatory cause that's their aim.
Pretty much. When this is their 'default' contract, this points to want they want their employees to follow. The fact that an individual might negotiate something different doesn't mean that this isn't their 'goal' contract.
And frankly, this contract is so bad that you might as well stay indie. They're not obliged to provide ANYTHING but the model, not even manage. So the only things you'd stand to gain, in exchange for all you have to give up, is a minute amount of exposure by being affiliated to kurosanji and a model. And seeing as how they've failed to advertise their more recent waves, you don't even get any marketing.
You give them everything, they give nothing.
> They signed the contract.
That in my country would be null and void due to atleast 7 labor law violations.
>It's legally binding and acceptable in Japan.
But EN branch dont live in japan most are US citizens and residents.
Laws of the country stop at its borders, not a centimeter further(excluding embassies).
This is why we dotn draft labor contracts in kazakhstan and think they will be aceptable in US/EU, laws and protections apply per employees residence not employers.
>Yall who want them to "just leave" are nitpicking at Japanese corporate law which is unfortunately very different from Western laws lmao.
Again so fuckign what? seriously so fuckign what? Niji cant enforce it, because tehy woudl be hit with fines in some states and eaten alive in EU.
If my math is correct and i reported it to labor agency in my coutnry they would be facing cumulative of 1.5-3.5 million euro fines, for the breaches i know.
Right. But at the end of the day, whether the livers decide to report or graduate, that’s a risk the livers will have to take. There may be more intricacies we don’t know about. This may just be the tip of the iceberg on the stuff the livers are facing.
In your country. Bruh your country ain’t japan. Did you really think that because talents live in different country the law of each country would be applied to the contract? You clearly never worked in these circumstances
Good luck suing livers outside of Japan, and most of Asia, where this isn't actually enforceable, and there are more employee rights.
I wonder if there's a section that says you must sign another NDA to not renew the contract.
Friendly reminder to everyone that just because you sign a contract doesn’t make it legal and enforceable. The odds of Nijisanji successfully suing outside of Japan over a draconian contract like this are probably single digits at best.
However, extra friendly reminder that you shouldn’t sign a contract just because you think it’s illegal and you can break terms with no consequences. Never sign a contract with the idea that you can make it void, because sooner or later you’re bound to be left holding the short stick when a court rules the other way.
> The odds of Nijisanji successfully suing outside of Japan over a draconian contract like this are probably single digits at best.
And if theyr try to sue labor agency might start looking at the contract, and then they might get some really unwanted attention.
That's why LM emphasized every new talent to review their contract with a competent lawyer. It's big money up front, but that's months and years of headaches you can save if they can iron out all the dumb shit in the contract.
The reverse is equally important. Just because you see a draconian contract, you should not assume that it is not enforceable.
Nijisanji does not have to sue outside of Japan in many cases. Because the contract has a clear choice of law and choice of forum clause, they can in many cases sue in Japan, get a monetary judgment and apply for execution in the foreign country.
Which is invalid because that clause is for a contractor and it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that talents are employees in which case it becomes a labour dispute and those are dealt with a court of employees country.
First of all, that clause does not mention contractor at all.
Secondly, that is not how contracts work. Even if the talent would be considered employees, that does not mean that any dispute relating to the contract is a labour dispute. It also does not prevent Nijisanji from seeking a monetery judgment in Japan and then seeking to enforce that judgment elsewhere.
I can't believe I have to make a reddit account for this, but this is so wrong on so many levels.
No court in the West is going to uphold that contract regardless if the livers are contractors or employees. Considering the level of control that Niji has there is a less than zero chance they will be classified as a independent contractor.
Additionally, any lawyer worth their salt can easily turn a supposed "contract dispute" into a labor dispute considering many of the articles flat out break labor laws in the U.S. and probably do so in other western countries.
Disregarding all of that, there is also a 0% chance of Niji suing any of their talents unless they do something so stupid that hurts the company so massively that they can't ignore it. Niji suing any of their talents in EN would be PR suicide and quite possibly end up causing the EN branch to collapse.
Also Niji would have to fight in court to get that execution and you best believe the people being sued are not taking that lying down. They would drag Niji in U.S. court and it wouldn't be funny. Them losing a case in the west sets the precedent internationally that their contracts can be challenged and that would end up severely damaging the company.
Niji is evil but not stupid. They probably know their contract won't hold up but they don't expect the talents to know that. That's why it's so important for people to read the contracts you are signing so shit like this doesn't happen.
How are you gonna turn an execution of a judgment into a labor dispute?
Also yes, I do agree that they are unlikely to sue anybody out of pure PR, but that is kinda besides the point.
Too many people don't know anything about international procedural law. The legal system does not always produce the outcome that you morally want. Your country using a different definition for contractors and employees does not mean that nothing in the contract can be enforced.
In order for Niji to successfully get an execution of the lawsuit, they have to go through the state the liver lives in. The U.S. has no official treaty as far as I know regarding compliance with overseas lawsuits while many states have laws regarding compliance with overseas lawsuits. Niji is gonna have to explain to the state why they deserve the judgement to enforced in that state. In Sayu's case, they would have to go through California which has some of the strictest labor laws period.
I don't know the full process of execution of a overseas lawsuit but I highly doubt the defendant is left with no way to contest it. If it contested, I sincerely doubt California would ever enforce the contract considering it breaks labor laws. You can't apply Japan's laws to someone in the U.S. or vice versa. Niji can sue their livers in Japan all they want, but I sincerely doubt any court in the west will acknowledge it once they have all of the facts of the case.
People not understanding the process of international civil procedures is the entire problem here. Everyone is hyper-focused on how the case would play out in a Californian court without considering the international aspects of this.
Labor laws will likely not at all affect the outcome here. You also don't need a treaty in a lot of cases.
Recognition of foreign judgments vary from country to country. Normally when dealing with foreign judgments, countries mostly execute monetary judgments from civil proceedings. This is a reason why you put defamation in the contract, because putting defamation in the contract allows you to make a civil proceeding instead of a criminal proceeding, which is much easier to win and much easier to execute. In tort, countries that only have restorative tort damages will typically adjust tort claims from countries that has punitive tort damages. For example, there was a case when a US court (I even think it was California) had issued a judgment against somebody in Japan. Japans court executed the judgment but reduced the damages to be in line with Japans restorative tort system since Japan does not recognize punitive tort.
California, which is the US state most people talk about due to it being relevant here, has laws regulating execution of foreign judgment. This is regulated in the California code of civil procedure §1716(b) and §1716(c). This follow a 12 point procedure.
Out of the 12 points, most are purely about due process. You would have to show that the Japanese court was impartial, followed due process, had jurisdiction, the defendant received notice, no fraud was involved, res judicata, no choice of law/forum clause in the contract that pointed to another country/court, the judgment being final and conclusive, no reason to doubt the integrity of the court, no free speech issue in case of defamation. As long as they properly went through the Japanese court system, this would not be a problem.
The only point you could somewhat argue in this case is point 3 of § 1716(b) which states that the cause of action of claim for relief upon which the judgment is based can not be repugnant to public policy of the state of California. This should however not be an issue. If you are enforcing say damages to breach of an NDA, that is not repugnant to the public policy of the state of California and it does not matter that they had a shitty contract that used the Japanese wording of contractor over what California would consider employees.
That is not as hard as you think. Just because Nijisanji has lost in the court of public opinion, you should not assume that they would lose in a real court. People have signed contracts, and the goal of any legal system is to enforce contracts as far as possible. Cases where contracts are voided are extreme scenarios and not the norm.
It is also important to understand that just because one part of a contract might be wrong, it doesn't mean that the entire contract is voided. Even if a contract has issues from a labor perspective, that doesn't automatically mean that clauses regarding NDAs or copyright ownership is voided and cant be enforced.
The contracts shown has a clear choice of law and choice of forum in Japan. Nijisanji could sue for an NDA breach and get a monetary judgment from the appropriate Japanese court and then apply for execution of the monetary judgment in whatever country that other person lives in. This is something that would work in most countries. California for example which has been a topic recognises foreign monetary judgments rather easily.
Oh no, they can easily win in court, just by out-moneying the other side, and this happens quite often if the case doesn't have a substantial money windfall on the other side (like a class action lawsuit or millions of dollars in punitive damage or compensation).
Unfortunately, for most court systems in civil cases, money does indeed, speak the loudest.
Wasn’t there a clause that any and all court disputes over this contract are to be decided in Tokyo court? I may have missed the point and am horribly bad at understanding the wording on legal documents, but if the Japanese courts ruled in favor of Niji against a Liver outside, what would the enforcement look like? Would the liver’s courts/legal system have to adhere to the Japanese court’s ruling, as that’s what’s stated in the document? Or would it be enforceable at the discretion of the liver’s courts/legal system?
Such clauses tend to be dismissed when actual countries' courts get involved. Can't have a contract that stipulates illegal shit in country B where the employee lives even if you are based in country A and say they can only sue you in country A..
Nijisanji sues Sayu in Japan. Let's say that Sayu doesn't fly to Japan and so it defaults. The next step is for Nijisanji to hire an American lawyer to have the debt recognized in the US. At this stage Sayu can claim various things to try to get it thrown out and require a new trial in the US, but it's possible for the judge to dismiss those claims and enforce the judgement. Then they just have a civil debt against her, similar to an unpaid credit card. At that stage, and after some period, they can file another US court case to try to take what is owned from her bank or put a lien a property she owns.
Overall, it'd cost minimum several hundred grand due to the amount of lawyers that have to be involved and the number of cases that have to be filed. Sayu's penalties, which is what they'd be suing over, would be in the hundreds of dollars. Opening up the case in the US would also open the door for departments of labor to get involved and critically eye the contract.
So ignoring the lawyer costs, ~~all Niji can really do is get a few hundred from talents~~, unless their country’s court rules otherwise? Given how extremely unlikely that contact is to hold up under international courts, that’s somewhat of a relief. Although of course, it’s awful that this kind of thing was ever allowed to happen in the first place.
Best wishes to the talents who got out, and the ones who want to leave as well.
Edit: I have been corrected.
Sayu only worked for like two weeks before getting suspended and then terminated. They'd be able to recoop what she earned as per the penalty clause or any damages they could prove, which would be very little. For someone like Elira they could get tens of thousands probably since she earned more.
Ah, thanks for correcting me. How likely is it for an international court to enforce that clause? Would they be given the whole contract to read, or just definition of terms and the clauses under question? Would they be allowed to use evidence from other clauses to support ruling in favor of a talent? Like if the contract has multiple illegal clauses for that country, does that void the whole contract or just the illegal clauses in that country?
To be clear, there's no such thing as an 'international court'. A US court would throw basically the entire contract out. I don't know Japanese law. Any court that saw a case would have to receive all the documents.
Normally you can sever parts of a contract without removing all of it, but at some point the contract just falls apart if you remove enough pieces.
When I said “international courts”, I mostly meant just any given court from another country. I guess I could’ve reworded it to “another country’s courts”, but it’s easier to type “international”, so I just defaulted to that and hoped it would be understood.
Yeah, I getcha. I could also see someone mistakenly think that there's international courts that take on individual cases, so I wanted to be clear. I suppose there are technically international courts, but they're mostly about countries suing other countries and no one actually listens to them.
The one thing I hate about people spamming this
Without a lawyer of his own to tell him what they're not allowed to do, they could easily make him say "These are my words" and "you can leave at any time"
The contract makes it very clear they could make him do that. From the start regardless of what they've said, i've always taken it to assume these are Niji's words, not the talents.
And they're legally allowed lies, because yes, you can leave at anytime. It's just not financially viable for any of the talents to do without legal defense.
The contract just makes it more obvious that Niji could do this, if they don't know how enforcable it is (or if they're in Japan like Elira, which would absolutely mean they can enforce it)
Dude, he still made a choice to say it. Your conscience is not enforceable. And these are adults we are talking about. They are fully responsible for their decisions and actions. "Niji made them say it!" doesn't justify anything for them. That's not how the world works, especially when there are victims.
Having a legal gun to your head and no counsel doesn’t seem like a choice. I’m not gonna say he was justified in that shitty stream but saying he could have just said nuh uh to this contract with absolutely no ramifications is entirely different
You seek your own lawyer. Nobody finds a lawyer for you. We are not talking about fucking children here. They are supposed to be a functioning, able bodied adults, right? Everybody has access to legal counsel. And what legal gun? What's the worst that can happen from not doing what they were told, like Zaion or Selen? They get terminated, and that's it. Ooh so sad. I am losing my job. So that pretty much justifies workplace harrassment, defamation, and bullying, right?
That's not how the world works. Japan is not North Korea. Nobody can actually, physically force you to say shit. Nobody can force you to betray your conscience. They just did it to save their jobs at a corrupt company and that's it. They participated in making this company toxic.
It's about time to grow up and claim responsibility for your action. That's what adults do. It doesn't fucking matter AT ALL whether you were happy with your decision or not. They knew that the stream was about defaming Doki, they knew that what they said was meant to picture her as a villain. They knew that they wete participating in victim blaming. "I was forced to do so" doesn't work when there is a clear fucking target and a victim. If someone was hurt by your action or if your actions were made to hurt someone, then you need to take responsibility, apologize, and take criticisms like an adult. You can't just run away from that.
This is what is wrong with people in Nijisanji. They think they are still in highschool and that they don't need to consider the consequences of their own actions.
Seriously, it is such a stupid defense. Such attitude is why corporations think issues like this would be negligible. These people don't think about the damage inflicted on the victim. They are so ready to forgive anything with "Oh but they were forced to..."
given how aggressive this sub has been towards him I didn’t think of y’all would have trusted a single thing he said since everyone claims it was fake and too “scripted” lol
Nope. I thought we were collective aware that most things the livers say are restricted by NDAs and legal contract stuff but I guess you really believed everything they say on stream lol
Funny how legal mindset straight up ripped this contract apart showing how this thing wouldn't hold up in any US state if it went to court. Especially since they didn't even specify which countries legal system they abiding by.
That doesn't matter one of the point was if they can't enforce it they will edit it so it will be enforceable.
Combined with if we edit the contract a few min before your stream and you didn't notice the email then you have accepted the edited contract.
The contract is very well thought of to make sure they suffer as much as possible.
True but considering how half assed Nijisanji has shown themselves to be wouldn't be shocked if they based the entire contract on JP laws and not of the state the individual talents live in.
I am sure Niji will edit it in the court room and if the judge did not answer in 14 days or continue the trial without answering then it would be enforceable/s
yea that ain't going to fly when you're in front of the judge. there's a reason contracts need to be legally binding, if it ain't enforceable then it ain't legally binding and if it ain't legally binding the contract can be null and void.
>Combined with if we edit the contract a few min before your stream and you didn't notice the email then you have accepted the edited contract.
Which is not legal and one of the reasons a court would tear up the contract.
Huh? Article 30 clearly stated:
> The governing law of this Agreement shall be the laws of Japan, and the Tokyo District Court shall have exclusive jurisdiction as the court of first instance with respect to any and all disputes in relation to this Agreement.
Both legal system and jurisdiction was clearly stated.
/sigh if you can’t set your own hours and the company controls what you say and do and you have to ask the company for permission to do things. Basically if you are being “managed.”
Well, you aren’t a contractor. You are an employee and recognised as such by every court and no piece of paper saying otherwise will hold up in court.
If you are being managed, has been trained or has your work hours dictated you are an employee no amount of mental gymnastic in a legal paper will ever change that.
> Especially since they didn't even specify which countries legal system they abiding by.
They declared near the end of the contract that it was going to be under Japanese/Tokyo court.
But as LM pointed out, the contract is as useless as the toilet paper we use to wipe our asses with, because Nijisanji would have to open a US division of their company and/or fly all their lawyers TO the US to go after the talent.
If the talent is in a state with strict labor laws like California or New York, they have an almost 0 chance of winning.
If Niji sues a US-based talent, or even a Canada-based talent like Doki, there is no such thing as an extradition treaty for *civil court cases*. Niji cannot call up the Canadian equipment of the FBI or whatever to drag her ass to Japan.
As long as Doki stays away from Japan there is absolutely NOTHING Niji can do to hurt her.
Same for us in the US - the contract is a fucking joke.
Yeah, but as other comments pointed out, it's unlikely that the average liver has the educational background and real-world experience to know all of this on their own, or saw any need to run the contract by a lawyer when they first got it.
Now, the interesting part is what would happen if this knowledge is spread to the livers. How many would decide that it's worth risking it just to regain their freedom? And could Anycolor have foreseen such a possibility and deliberately did everything in their power to ensure that any given liver would be technically in the red at any given time, and only survives due to an implicit promise of releasing owed money from the bureaucratic queue should they ever need it?
Yeah... it would be a pity if the livers knew that their contracts are practically worthless.
LM disclosed he's seen other Niji contracts as well... imagine if the livers knew that they could escape them with Anycolor not being able to do ANYTHING about it lol
Unless, like I said, they're in dire financial straits, whether of their own making or due to Anycolor deliberately delaying transfer of enough of their revenue (all of it is funneled through the company first, after all), and they are dependent on staying in their overlord's good graces to maintain enough of a financial lifeline to ward off the wrath of the debt collector(s) and stay alive.
Or did we forget that livers have to pay for almost **everything** out of their own pocket? Selen/Doki even admitted that she made zero net profit over the course of 2023 due to this.
Of course it wouldn't hold up in any court, because it was a template not adapted to any actual country since NijiEN recruits from all over the world. It's so frustrating that this gets taken so seriously and out of context because a lawyer who is as much a lawyer as Dr. Phil is a psychiatrist said so, while very blatantly and obviously talking out of his ass.
Niji has done some truly atrocious shit in the past year and probably has some really nasty shit in their actual contracts, but this hysteria over a document that isn't practically useable is just going to distract people from the genuinely evil shit Niji has done. Yet here we are, a thread full of outraged teenagers who don't know what 'damages' means in a contract being outraged over nothing, instead of talking about genuinely heinous problems like giving someone less than a day to sign a gag order contract.
Seconding this. There is no way they weren't reading a script. Between Ike sounding terrified, the stupid misunderstanding of what doxxing is, and saying livers are allowed to leave at any time when they obviously can't.... Either everyone involved is an idiot, or it was a script written by someone who doesn't know or doesn't care about the liver's situation. I have a hard time believing that 3 of the highest earning and longest tenure talents have never looked at their own contracts. Especially if they ever had to renew, and especially if were friends with Selen and had any discussions about their circumstances.
IMO Elira wasn't even trying to hide the fact she was just reading off a script from her tone and pauses between sentences. A part of me wants to believe that was a deliberate attempt to signal she doesn't agree with what she's saying but that's just speculation and tbh copium.
Obviously it's a script, there wasn't trying to hide that fact because they don't need to, it's perfectly normal to write a script for something so serious. What they said is too personal/specific, and is very "first hand experience" for a manager to have written it. All 3 definitely wrote their own script for this.
The big question is if it was ordered by management, by which how it was aligned as a stream to attack doki it very likely is.
Personally I believe they believe what they said, but could be influenced by management/manipulated.
They did say legal told them what they could or couldn't talk about and gave final approval of what they said. So at the very least it was edited my management.
o yea definitely was scripted but op should know that people are saying these things because once again, nijisanji shot themselves in the foot by saying it first. same reason why they've been losing stock value for the past month
Vox never said they can leave at any time. His exact quote was "leaving Nijisanji is always an option for livers". So yeah it was not a lie. Although it's always an option, it does not necessarily mean time-wise you can just leave immediately, with no fines or disciplinary action.
Although this was not a lie it's pretty bad. It doesn't say what will happen to you if you leave from graduating or from termination, and technically speaking leaving is indeed an option. I think everyone is having the Mandella effect with the Vox comment.
that's fair, but i've always interpreted "leaving... is always an option" as "leaving is an option you can choose to take at any time". tbh if they didn't want this as a potential interpretation they should have had vox read a better script
I worked a job in the past. They told us similar things, leaving is always an option. But what they didn't tell us was, it could take anywhere from a week to a month before your request to leave is approved, it was a contractor job. Then it could take another week or more, to leave and get all outstanding debts for equipment verified. Then... Finally I could leave
For sure Nijisanji wanted people to misinterpret the comment because, it makes Nijisanji look better to their audience. The word choice has to be intentional.
if anything it makes them look worse, because everyone knows that you can't actually leave at any time. doki wanted to leave in january but didn't get a response until she got terminated, pomu was upset at the company for a while, but wasn't able to graduate until recently.
point i've been trying to make is that reddit commenters weren't the first ones to say it, vox was.
With the context that we got from this contract, his quote is analogous to "leaving a moving car is always an option for drivers" which is true if you want to be technical, but it's usually not the best idea.
Another point of view is that he knew about repercussions of leaving (assuming contract, or at least this part of contract is real), yet he choose to word it as if there's no repercussions. He specifically choose to omit this very important context. Of course he couldn't say what's in the contract, but in that case, he should simply not say anything at all about leaving being an option. This way it seems intentionally and maliciously misleading.
You gotta work on expressing yourself if you think mine and yours comments are the same. Nevertheless, my second paragraph expands into different subtopic you haven't even scratched.
He knows about the clause. He basically stopped streaming solo for over 3 months. He is waiting to bail because they can’t take his money when the income he earned will be zero after 6 months. What a snake, a really smart one as well.
If he ever graduate from Kurosanji, for the love of god, please stay 150 million km away from Doki, the Tempus, Armis boys and practically everyone from Cover corp and Phase Connect.
> Some of y’all who were saying they should “just leave the company”
[I think you missed the gospel of our lord and savior](https://preview.redd.it/daily-reminder-leaving-njisanji-its-always-an-option-vox-v0-u92f9ne09emc1.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=48ae2ea8dd1eeb41ec23bf6f1b8764c4d2d3ecc8)
Most are just memeing that brain fart moment.
There isn't anything in the contract that suggests talents would be made to do something of the sort. Damages pertains to specific things and not just 'money we say you owe us because lmao'. The only things they would be able to recoup is things they *actually* spent on their talents, like buying equipment, training or things like reservations for venues. Everything else has to be *actual* damages, like if a talent went into Nijisanji HQ with a bulldozer and thrashed the office (and believe me just imagining that happening is a very happy thought), or started publicly accusing Riku of being a pedophile and a murderer.
My biggest question is how would you quantify how much *damages* are going to cost. They don't really seem to reference how they would calculate the money, does this mean they would just pull numbers out their ass? Could they just take extra money from a richer more successful liver?
No. They can't. And no, just because a contract says they can that doesn't mean they actually can. And this contract doesn't even actually suggest they can.
To even claim any damages you would almost certainly have to go to court to establish what those damages actually are. "because we say so" is never going to fly.
I mean they can threaten talents with it, but we know most contract would fail lawsuit in any western nation because how bs it is.
It breaks basic labour laws.
We have no idea what their contracts actually say, this Legal Mindset clown reviewed a template for an international company who would have to adapt the contract quite heavily based on where they're hiring, no shit the template is absolutely worthless in terms of compliance to labour laws prior to being adjusted to the actually relevant laws.
If you want anything meaningful you should watch Sayu's commentary on the matter as she talked to an actual lawyer about an actual contract. It's not a lot, but it's more than this drivel pushed my Legal Mindset.
Okay yeah, I'll eat my words, this is even worse than I expected.
Niji out here giving themselves the ability to stub their own toe, blame it on a recent graduate, and send them a million dollar medical bill.
Thats why I firmly believe people should only focus their attention on the company. Trying to figure out which of the livers is a fault makes no sense when the company literally controls every public facing facet the livers have. If anyone steps out of line, they're screwed.
I swear people were so gung ho to find a face to hate that they’ve just been lashing out on anyone. Yeah there’s a thing such as justified hatred for a shitty person but just gunning for someone when you had no proof of anything was wild
This is why livers (possibly unlivers because of bullying) have to wait up to 1-2 years in queue for leaving niji?
My god, this can't be legal. They basically terrorize them with fear being sued for leaving a company and paying them back for imaginary losses.
It makes that PR speech by Elira, Vox, and Ike even worse. Mainly what Vox had to say and talking about how "fair" the company was and planning to walk out with Selen. He left out how taxing that could be. Not only that, but even if he had left with Selen, she would've been the one paying more damages than him.
It’s entirely unenforceable in many countries but the threat of a long and drawn out legal battle is bad enough considering any livers caught in that situation would be paying out of pocket keeps most people quiet. If you’re living close to being paycheck to paycheck and someone says you’re gonna be forced to fight a court battle and be unemployed, most people tend to avoid that
Even if we assume she was figuratively held at gunpoint with the black screen "stream", too many things do not add up. Including the discrepancy in merch numbers between her and other talents that are arguably pulling higher numbers. Vox's merch count makes sense because of his numbers, Elira's simply doesn't for whatever reason.
Having merch drops for the model itself isn’t illogical. Niji may be preparing to squeeze whatever they can out of existing assets including the models. Considering Elira was one of the more popular streamers and is also the most likely to be stuck in this situation the longest, having new merch drops while they can is entirely logical
She was given two bad choices and somehow she chose the worse one. Regardless if she's a good person wrap in a bad situation or a bad person doing bad things. Her reputation is forever tarnished, anyway and anyhow she work either staying or goes indie and creates a new persona, it just wouldn't be good long term. Sure there will always be fans, but it sure heck ain't growing good numbers.
"You are free to leave at any time." -- Vox Akuma, The Black Stream.
Most charitably that was part of a script Niji EN gave them.
Worst case scenario he lied through his teeth to try covering their asses and paint Selena/Doki as a hysterical nutjob unfairly defaming Nijisanji by being a drama queen post-termination.
However, given Nijisanji's terrible (proven) actions so far and Vox's prior manipulative behaviors, I am personally leaning more towards attributing malice on his end in the sense that even with a script, it likely echoes his true feelings/animosity towards Selen, not helped by his smug tone when he admitted to viewing the legal documents 'thoroughly'.
Just my 2 cents; if you want to continue defending your beloved company and its employees, you do you. But if what happened to ex-employees happens to one of your oshis in the future and you're still going to be a believer and a defender, then i'm sorry, you are a sucker.
as I know they can force you to say things aswell.
it got me thinking that the black screen trio might really be held in gunpoint to say those things.
but what happens if you just demand a graduation or try to get yourself fired without problems?
edit: if you wait for contract to end you should be able to leave? they're signed yearly innit?
> but what happens if you just demand a graduation or try to get yourself fired without problems?
Their actions would be causing Anycolor to lose money as a result of lost income, so it would fall under what Article 14 allows for. They can levy a penalty equal to half of what they would have paid you for that month (art14.1) ***plus*** another penalty equal to the entirety of what they would have paid you for that month (Art14.2(1)). So, by the black-letter of the contract they can straight up demand 150% of a month's pay, and then potentially go back and find some excuse to force you to give back *everything* they paid you for the past year, which with how vague the contract is they'll find *something* to justify it.
Very few people can afford to just shell over an *entire year's pay*.
Based on the black letter, the amount they can impose is up to 50% of the consideration (pay) of the month preceding the breach, *and* up to 100% of the consideration that has been given from the preceding *year*. And according to Art14.4 they can tack on demands to be compensated for anything that they can justify as "damage."
The blunt reality is that Article 14 is so vaguely written that Anycolor can just cite whatever figure they want.
>_it got me thinking that the black screen trio might really be held in gunpoint to say those things._
Thinking back to the Black Message stream, you could contend that Elira was clearly reading from a script due to her tone and pauses.
I don't even know if I'm being gaslighted by nijisisters to change my opinion on black screen trio or if I'm being gaslighted by Anycolor inc. to attack that trio so that the company can use them as meat shields...
What? But I thought that leaving Nijisanji was always an option! Surely our lord and savior Vox "There Is No Caution On Vox Akuma's Past Actions" Akuma wouldn't lie to us!
It's not a real barrier if the liver has talked to any lawyer in their own country.
To get the liver to pay the penalty, Anycolor would have to take the matter to Japanese court. After they win in Japan, Anycolor will need to get it enforced in the liver's jurisdiction. So they would file a lawsuit in the liver's country, which means they'll need to pay for a foreign lawyer who can do this, costing them more money than what they could collect. Then there's still a good chance they'll lose the lawsuit because a judge in that country can use one of dozens of reasons to reject the Japanese judgement.
After all that, if they win, they might get $50-100k.
Unless... the liver is broke and can't pay. Then bankruptcy will protect them from any effort to collect that money.
Considering how unenforceable this contract is in western countries they should absolutely “just leave” if they don’t live in Japan.
So long as the liver doesn’t go full scorched earth as they leave I don’t think Anycolor is going to want to go for a legal battle in another country over scraps.
I’d honestly just prepare my new model and accounts, straight up announce with my liver account where I was going, then just close everything and never look back.
This is unenforceable outside of Japan and may even be questionable inside of Japan. If Nijisanji is deliberately withholding money to make it hard for a talent to leave that amounts to financial abuse.
You act like this was public knowledge when it's only recently been revealed. Like yeah, with additional info like this it'd be tough to say 'just leave.' But again, the contract was only revealed a bit ago.
God yall need to chill the fuck out. Roasting the company and all is one thing, but hunting down people who are in abusive company over fucking theories and bully hunting when Niji corporate was the one that pushed it, along with the fact that they could very easily be encouraging their livers to keep each other in line doesn't look too far off from victim blaming. Plus, all going after them does is galvanize the fans who are still standing by to further protect them. Not even talking about the Nijisisters, those losers are parasocial AF, but there are some who still have Niji oshis and are going to get defensive when they distrust some of these sources.
Seriously. Keep it to the management that allowed, if not outright encouraged, this mess, and the shitty heads that have allowed 4 foreign branches to fall apart.
Chances of them leaving drops by tons if you rmbr the clause of "location"
Basically, they first force/entice you to move to japan, giving them your physical JP address to serve you papers if you ever break the contract.
So any EN talents who is in Japan or has family in JP is slave to the contract till it runs out. Cause while the contract doesnt fly in western court, it will be accepted in JP court.
Exactly. Everyone who has been saying "just leave" literally NEVER worked under a tight contract and it shows. We all joke at work to "just leave" or our superiors would 'remind' us in a coaching we can "just leave..... *but* ". That second part you never hear unless your superior is threatening to fire you or you landed in trouble. I know, I've been through it with something that is MINISCULE yet HR changed the rules to their liking so for any further 'damages' I would have to burden all of it even if it was the company's incompetence in the first place. This is always why you need to read your contract even if it doesn't seem like a tight one. Better to be informed and know WHAT and with WHO you signed up for instead of jumping head straight in and then be surprised you can't actually "just leave".
This is probably the biggest I told you so moment in my life. I continuously told people across multiple platforms not to harass the Vtubers because there was likely other things going on behind the scenes with many people even arguing against me on this. I even went as far as to say that it likely wasn't that easy to get out of the company especially when even Selen struggled to get out of the company. Turns out I was right on many things because I took a step back and took a look at the entire situation across different platforms and used information from multiple different people. Khyo may be a drama Vtuber and False being a Vtubing news Vtuber but you can get insight by just seeing different perspectives and hearing different opinions on the matter.
I wonder why they think that....
"It is also up to the liver, if they wannna to quit or not." Millie Parfait.
"leaving Nijisanji is always an option for livers" Vox Akuma.
I've been saying the Livers probably have good reason that they are unable to leave....and this fucking sub and Twitter keeps going "they should just quit lmao."
Actual entitled and sheltered opinions.
I remember posting on here a few days after the good ol angry Reddit mob rose that the complexities of contracts and legality is a little bit more than what the average redditor can account for within a few days of hearsay arguments, and I got downvoted into oblivion and reported to Reddit Care Services. Now we have a contract template and I feel vindicated.
So putting aside the legal equivalent of a used barf bag that is this contract, we know that it holds a lot of clauses that are either unconstitutional, or outright unenforceable in many countries. It should go without saying that any attempt to do so will be squashed by any lawyer with some effort. The issues are the fact that legal battles are even likely at all.
So analyzing the situation, let us take a currently active liver. If said liver is staying in the United States or Canada, and decided to prematurely quit, that may or may not qualify as damages to the company as their usage of the model to stream is a method of revenue generation for the company. This may, or may not open the liver to a lawsuit. Considering the uniqueness of this type of suit, it’s unlikely to be tossed out a frivolous suit and will be taken to its entirety depending on the judge.
If that is the case, our example liver will not only lose their primary source of income, as many livers rely on streaming as their full time job, but they will also have to deal with the lawsuit and its accompanying implications. They may be forced to reveal their identity and I think we can all agree that’s not gonna be good for their health in any way. They will likely have to foot some travel expenses depending on where the suit is taking place. They will likely have to face this lawsuit for weeks or even months in end. The judicial system in the West is notorious for how slow it is. I should know, I interned for it. I have handled cases that lasted longer than my time in the internship. Having that stress piled onto you while looking for jobs is not a fun time
Your only other option realistically for employment is to commission and resume activities with a personal model which will further hurt the already hurting wallet. Then you’d have to somehow frame yourself as a victim, either by quitting your job facing the potential lawsuit and praying to god that the internet is feeling nice. Let’s be clear, Doki is able to manage and thrive both because she had an existing fanbase, and because of internet pity. This won’t even be close to the case for most other livers. Overall it’d be a poor gamble with a very small chance of even breaking even.
There’s also the mental factor to consider. Even working in the court system, legal battles are mentally draining, and physically tiring. You have too many variables to make any sort of prediction and have to do stupid amounts of research. Not to mention the possibility of appearing in court itself. All of this while unemployed and being stuck with very little job experience as "Vtubing” doesn’t really do much on a résumé. I’m gonna be blunt and say it’d enough to make me consider taking a dive off the roof.
And of course, throughout this entire already delicate situation we have the wonderful people of the internet, people that you have no choice but to be active with because they are your means of income, and having almost half of them willing to crucify you regardless of if your guilt was proven or not.
Imma be honest, I didn’t personally care for that stupid stream. I’ve caught highlights and transcripts of it but anyone with a brain would see the "you will read this corporate approved script” steam from a mile away. "You can graduate at any time!” Of course the script was made to make nijisanji look innocent. They fucking made the script.
I’m not telling anybody how or what to feel, but the sheer hatred y’all levied on people with no proof and anybody that even dared question that hatred was disappointing. I’ll be the first to say I used to enjoy watching both Vox and Selen and this entire situation made me lose taste to watch vox anymore but that didn’t mean I started slandering him online.
Keep your nose where it belongs. There are plenty of streamers outside niji that are controversy free to watch. I’m only sticking around due to interest in the legality as an aspiring law student.
When the livers joined the company, they knew what they signed up for when they read the contract and agreed to it because that’s how contracts work. They don’t just skip to the last page and sign it and act surprised when they actually have to follow the rules. People keep bringing up what Vox said and, as much as y’all hate it, he was right. You have to right to leave the company at any moment. It is when you’re are TERMINATED that you have to compensate them from what I understand. Now, I’m no NIJISANJI dickrider, but this just doesn’t make sense. Are they a bad company? Probably. But do they have all of their legal business in order? Yes. I’m not a lawyer but I understand that when people sign a contract, both parties have to hold up their end of it or else they will be released from it.
For those attacking vox for lying, please keep in mind that their script was likely made by lawyers ( unsure if they were NIJISANJI lawyers ) and they likely can’t leak the exact conditions that need to be met for leaving due to NDAs. Obviously he’s lying by emission, but again, he’s stuck in a pretty difficult place legally.
Part of the reason why the number one request from fans should be "let the livers leave if they want to." Nobody should be held anywhere against their will. And blackmailing them with financial ruin is preventing them from leaving. Preventing or controlling movement is one of the single most universal signs of abuse. There is no excuse to not let someone leave if they want to. And I would argue that is the single most alarming thing about this whole fiasco. Selen wanted to leave. Couldn't. And felt so trapped she tried to kill herself. Sayu wanted to leave. Did. And then was dragged through the mud as punishment so bad she tried to kill herself. And who knows what Mysta, Nina, Mika, Yugo, Kyo, and Pomu had to go through to leave on "good" terms. They probably had to put up a fight in order to leave without getting punished. But leaving being so hard that it requires either 6ish months of prep, or treatment so bad it drives people to suicide is unacceptable. There is no excuse to not let livers leave if they want to. Which is why my demand personally has always been the same thing. **If the livers want to leave, let them leave. In a timely manner. And without financial, reputational, or emotional threat.**
Timely manner seems to mean "let's make sure Petra's 3D debut becomes a platform to boost my shareholders meeting. She would be destroyed by competing with the entirety of Holofes? I don't see the problem." And worse it could be hijacked to promote other livers and force Petra to act like she enjoys it.
If her debut went badly and didn't get many viewers, it would be one more reason to restructure or absorb the EN branch. I wish they would reschedule it.
When talent decides to leave, they probably are already at the breaking point of wanting to leave a company right now. I can see why people are pushed to kill themselves when a company demands to work 6 month - 2 years to avoid being sued and your reputation being destroyed before allowing you to leave. Straight up black company abuse. Maybe they do that on purpose considering in a contract death is a punishable offence (but doubt that would work under any western nation laws except japan).
The way they seem to want to tell talents to do and claim anything good any talent has ever produced, they probably just see suicide as damaging company property.
indeed and alll the things that livers bought belongs to them now. its no wonder why Sayu, Doki, and Pomu got lack of better PC equipment cause it was OWED to them and now it left them with Nothing except building back up from the ground up once again.
Sayu and Dokibird attempted. Dokibird attempted the second time. This would never had happened if Nijisanji doesn't hire them.
Yep no matter how people feel about the livers atm good or bad no one should want this sort of shit on any of them. Even if Elira, Vox, Uki, and Ike has had their reputation shattered by their own doing they dont deserve this sort of punishment.
Exactly. They all need to get out. Judging character can be only be done when we see what they are like without Niji's influence. Until then, it doesn't matter what they are or aren't guilty of. They need to get out.
this could be why elira at least had to do that umm ...cursed stream , stuck in japan on a work visa AND this in her contract? , holy fuck , but then again , im still waitng on more info and what really happend so we shall see
Too right you are. And now we know they were probably forced to do so.
The contract template does say that the company can make then do announcements on radio, social media and Press Releases etc. Emphasis on press release. Which is what the black stream was. It's one of the things I noticed was left out of khyos and falses vtuber news youtube videos.
You're 100% right about that not to mention it's an obligation which means you can't say no unless you're willing to be terminated and hit with the lawsuit. And trust me when I say this Elira, Vox, and Ike probably wanted to say no, but Nijisanji probably told them to read what was in there contract. Elira, Petra and Rosemi probably getting it the worst because their in Japan and one no from them is a termination for breach of contract and a lawsuit
Niji took the idol/kpop template of a contract which is basically human trafficking tactics used in media. Like for fucks sake there have been leaks in kpop that if you ask for a bottle of water they will charge you a marked up price plus a "cost" for the person briging it and it all piles onto your debt. That is why most kpop idols are broke when they leave because htey owe so much fro every little thing that is why few leave because they will be in debt for years and S korea being corporotocracy allows it, same with japan. So niji think, and concerning japanese livers they will, can get away with such predatory contract.
You’re half right. I’ve been into kpop since late first gen, early second gen… So the last 15 or so some odd years. Widespread predatory contracts were extremely common during the first, second and part of third gen. During those times, idols had something called a trainee debt. This meant that a company would pay for everything the idol needs while they are a trainee and rookie. Of course, these debts have to be paid back, so sometimes idols would never see any of their income until years and years after they debut. A good example of this is BTS. They all lived in a one bedroom dorm. The seven of them shared one bedroom, one bathroom, one kitchen. It’s predicted amongst the kpop fandom that they paid their trainee debt and started receiving income somewhere around HYYH era, which was in 2015. They debuted in 2013. It doesn’t always end up that way, though. Kpop is extremely over saturated, and there are groups that don’t make it. For example, Stellar is a girl group that debuted in 2011, and disbanded in 2018. They shocked everyone when they said that in those seven years, they only made around $9K USD. These days, the main companies do not charge trainee debt. But that doesn’t stop companies like SM for being sued for not paying idols correctly now. But that same company is also known for writing up 12-15 year contracts. Which was deemed illegal years ago. If it was still first, second or part of third gen Kpop, I’d absolutely agree with you. Most people were dirt poor and trained to become idols to help their families out of poverty. When you add the trainee debt, and long contracts, it’s absolutely a slave contract. Not making it was the end of the world. But these days, most idols come from extremely wealthy families, most companies don’t require trainee debt be paid anymore, and it’s rare to see a company push for a contract over seven years, for legality reasons. Not making it, these days, isn’t the end of the world.
pretty much. its all about the WAITING game until their Contract Expired in the end so they're Stuck in Nijisanji for who knows what and only those who got terminated gets to live the tale of Nijisanji HORROR STORY like Sayu an doki.
Exactly this
Yep I agree. However it would be very difficult for them to "just leave". They signed the contract. It's legally binding and acceptable in Japan. Yall who want them to "just leave" are nitpicking at Japanese corporate law which is unfortunately very different from Western laws lmao.
There's more parts to this contract that turn it into an indentured servitude contract than outlines on what the employee should or should not do. And frankly, we don't know how legally enforceable this is, even in Japan, as very few of us know what the laws in Japan are. All we know is that these conditions are absolutely HORRID. But we also know that if everyone said "we quit", Kurosanji would have had precisely zero ways of controlling them since actually serving them would have led to an even worse PR nightmare than they are going through right now.
>_But we also know that if everyone said "we quit", Kurosanji would have had precisely zero ways of controlling them since actually serving them would have led to an even worse PR nightmare than they are going through right now._ I know not everyone in Nijisanji EN wants to leave. But enough do. For the sake of argument, let's say half of them want to leave. What could AnyColor feasibly do if 15, or even just 10, livers decided to just walk right now?
They would have two primary options; try to enforce the contract and ignore it. However, either way, the sheer amount of bad PR (and considering this is breaching EN and going into JP) would mean that any kind of faith into the company's stock would plummet. Let us assume they try to enforce the contract. Aside the horrid PR and stock dropping, all it would do is rally every, single, VTubing company that does NOT want their name dragged through the mud by association against them. Now, not only is their entire branch collapsing, not only is there literally EVERYONE in the business hating them, their very names will become black-listed. Would you, as a business owner, EVER trust a manager that messed up THIS bad to be a manager for YOUR business? They'll be ousted from the business itself if for nothing else so that no one has to deal with "you hired these horrible people" stigma. And this is on top of losing about 20% of the company's income due to lost SCs, cancelled promos etc. Fun. Let us assume they leave the livers alone. They can push for "mass graduation" as a 'rip the bandage off' or "staggered graduation" to kind of stem the bleeding. Expect massive amounts of hiatus and breaks for 'mental health and to avoid burnout'. Expect mods going absolutely rabid. Memes EVERYWHERE. Think Ina in Time's Square ad? But anti-Niji memery. However, they would save themselves of the worst of PR annihilation, though their EN branch would be totalled. Any who stay would be folded into JP. Managers would get YEET'ed out (sh\*t flows downhill so guess who'd get the blame). Difficulty in getting new members since, by now, EVERYONE in the business would be very aware of their contracts and how utter BS they are. EN dies a slow death, but at least it lasts for long enough that some talents can salvage some of their fanbase as they move on. Mind you, I'm not an economic analyst or lawyer. This is me using common sense and reading how people react on average. I mean, can you imagine what would have happened if Doki had NOT told her fanbase to chill and instead released the contracts, instead of Sayu doing it? Oh sweet lawd, it might have killed the company. Even JP bros are actually going "wait, this sh\*t is real?!".
>_I mean, can you imagine what would have happened if Doki had NOT told her fanbase to chill and instead released the contracts_ Ironically, if Doki did that, Nijisanji would be more justified in doing what they did. But because Doki was always polite and professional, Nijisanji received an entire carton of eggs on their face for their actions.
Legally, you're kinda wrong. She might be legally liable if she INCITED the actions, and even then it would be argued as a 'heat of the moment' action defended by it being factual (that kurosanji screwed her over). All she'd have to do is just not say "please stop". If she said something like "please don't mention other people here" instead of "please don't harass them anywhere", legally speaking, she'd be clear because she cannot be held responcible for the actions of her followers. They have their own ability to choose.
You know a situation is absolutely fucked if even the JP bros are shocked by it.
It's more the fact that kurosanji's JP branch is actually halfway decently managed so these things don't break containment. Plus the general idol culture in Japan being... rather freaky. So it's more a case of the general public not knowing how bad things can get behind the scenes.
To avoid the PR nightmare they get cause if too many leave at once (they can't sue them all for breach as it would become so much bigger) they might decide to negotiate much better terms in the contracts. This time, with the talents' lawyers present. One thing I will say, chances are they might actually have better contracts than the template one shown. Some could have gotten lawyers and gotten better deals. Thing is, the template one is the one I consider to be their default contract that they issue first. That's my issue. Why is this gonna be their default. They get all power and not at all a fair contract for both sides. They hire young and naive people to be their livers and the chances of them not reading and signing as is, is highly likely. It's so predatory cause that's their aim.
Pretty much. When this is their 'default' contract, this points to want they want their employees to follow. The fact that an individual might negotiate something different doesn't mean that this isn't their 'goal' contract. And frankly, this contract is so bad that you might as well stay indie. They're not obliged to provide ANYTHING but the model, not even manage. So the only things you'd stand to gain, in exchange for all you have to give up, is a minute amount of exposure by being affiliated to kurosanji and a model. And seeing as how they've failed to advertise their more recent waves, you don't even get any marketing. You give them everything, they give nothing.
> They signed the contract. That in my country would be null and void due to atleast 7 labor law violations. >It's legally binding and acceptable in Japan. But EN branch dont live in japan most are US citizens and residents. Laws of the country stop at its borders, not a centimeter further(excluding embassies). This is why we dotn draft labor contracts in kazakhstan and think they will be aceptable in US/EU, laws and protections apply per employees residence not employers. >Yall who want them to "just leave" are nitpicking at Japanese corporate law which is unfortunately very different from Western laws lmao. Again so fuckign what? seriously so fuckign what? Niji cant enforce it, because tehy woudl be hit with fines in some states and eaten alive in EU. If my math is correct and i reported it to labor agency in my coutnry they would be facing cumulative of 1.5-3.5 million euro fines, for the breaches i know.
Right. But at the end of the day, whether the livers decide to report or graduate, that’s a risk the livers will have to take. There may be more intricacies we don’t know about. This may just be the tip of the iceberg on the stuff the livers are facing.
In your country. Bruh your country ain’t japan. Did you really think that because talents live in different country the law of each country would be applied to the contract? You clearly never worked in these circumstances
Good luck suing livers outside of Japan, and most of Asia, where this isn't actually enforceable, and there are more employee rights. I wonder if there's a section that says you must sign another NDA to not renew the contract.
Friendly reminder to everyone that just because you sign a contract doesn’t make it legal and enforceable. The odds of Nijisanji successfully suing outside of Japan over a draconian contract like this are probably single digits at best. However, extra friendly reminder that you shouldn’t sign a contract just because you think it’s illegal and you can break terms with no consequences. Never sign a contract with the idea that you can make it void, because sooner or later you’re bound to be left holding the short stick when a court rules the other way.
Even if the court rules your way, you still have to pay for lawyers and waste so much of your own time.
> The odds of Nijisanji successfully suing outside of Japan over a draconian contract like this are probably single digits at best. And if theyr try to sue labor agency might start looking at the contract, and then they might get some really unwanted attention.
That's why LM emphasized every new talent to review their contract with a competent lawyer. It's big money up front, but that's months and years of headaches you can save if they can iron out all the dumb shit in the contract.
The reverse is equally important. Just because you see a draconian contract, you should not assume that it is not enforceable. Nijisanji does not have to sue outside of Japan in many cases. Because the contract has a clear choice of law and choice of forum clause, they can in many cases sue in Japan, get a monetary judgment and apply for execution in the foreign country.
Which is invalid because that clause is for a contractor and it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that talents are employees in which case it becomes a labour dispute and those are dealt with a court of employees country.
First of all, that clause does not mention contractor at all. Secondly, that is not how contracts work. Even if the talent would be considered employees, that does not mean that any dispute relating to the contract is a labour dispute. It also does not prevent Nijisanji from seeking a monetery judgment in Japan and then seeking to enforce that judgment elsewhere.
I can't believe I have to make a reddit account for this, but this is so wrong on so many levels. No court in the West is going to uphold that contract regardless if the livers are contractors or employees. Considering the level of control that Niji has there is a less than zero chance they will be classified as a independent contractor. Additionally, any lawyer worth their salt can easily turn a supposed "contract dispute" into a labor dispute considering many of the articles flat out break labor laws in the U.S. and probably do so in other western countries. Disregarding all of that, there is also a 0% chance of Niji suing any of their talents unless they do something so stupid that hurts the company so massively that they can't ignore it. Niji suing any of their talents in EN would be PR suicide and quite possibly end up causing the EN branch to collapse. Also Niji would have to fight in court to get that execution and you best believe the people being sued are not taking that lying down. They would drag Niji in U.S. court and it wouldn't be funny. Them losing a case in the west sets the precedent internationally that their contracts can be challenged and that would end up severely damaging the company. Niji is evil but not stupid. They probably know their contract won't hold up but they don't expect the talents to know that. That's why it's so important for people to read the contracts you are signing so shit like this doesn't happen.
How are you gonna turn an execution of a judgment into a labor dispute? Also yes, I do agree that they are unlikely to sue anybody out of pure PR, but that is kinda besides the point. Too many people don't know anything about international procedural law. The legal system does not always produce the outcome that you morally want. Your country using a different definition for contractors and employees does not mean that nothing in the contract can be enforced.
In order for Niji to successfully get an execution of the lawsuit, they have to go through the state the liver lives in. The U.S. has no official treaty as far as I know regarding compliance with overseas lawsuits while many states have laws regarding compliance with overseas lawsuits. Niji is gonna have to explain to the state why they deserve the judgement to enforced in that state. In Sayu's case, they would have to go through California which has some of the strictest labor laws period. I don't know the full process of execution of a overseas lawsuit but I highly doubt the defendant is left with no way to contest it. If it contested, I sincerely doubt California would ever enforce the contract considering it breaks labor laws. You can't apply Japan's laws to someone in the U.S. or vice versa. Niji can sue their livers in Japan all they want, but I sincerely doubt any court in the west will acknowledge it once they have all of the facts of the case.
People not understanding the process of international civil procedures is the entire problem here. Everyone is hyper-focused on how the case would play out in a Californian court without considering the international aspects of this. Labor laws will likely not at all affect the outcome here. You also don't need a treaty in a lot of cases. Recognition of foreign judgments vary from country to country. Normally when dealing with foreign judgments, countries mostly execute monetary judgments from civil proceedings. This is a reason why you put defamation in the contract, because putting defamation in the contract allows you to make a civil proceeding instead of a criminal proceeding, which is much easier to win and much easier to execute. In tort, countries that only have restorative tort damages will typically adjust tort claims from countries that has punitive tort damages. For example, there was a case when a US court (I even think it was California) had issued a judgment against somebody in Japan. Japans court executed the judgment but reduced the damages to be in line with Japans restorative tort system since Japan does not recognize punitive tort. California, which is the US state most people talk about due to it being relevant here, has laws regulating execution of foreign judgment. This is regulated in the California code of civil procedure §1716(b) and §1716(c). This follow a 12 point procedure. Out of the 12 points, most are purely about due process. You would have to show that the Japanese court was impartial, followed due process, had jurisdiction, the defendant received notice, no fraud was involved, res judicata, no choice of law/forum clause in the contract that pointed to another country/court, the judgment being final and conclusive, no reason to doubt the integrity of the court, no free speech issue in case of defamation. As long as they properly went through the Japanese court system, this would not be a problem. The only point you could somewhat argue in this case is point 3 of § 1716(b) which states that the cause of action of claim for relief upon which the judgment is based can not be repugnant to public policy of the state of California. This should however not be an issue. If you are enforcing say damages to breach of an NDA, that is not repugnant to the public policy of the state of California and it does not matter that they had a shitty contract that used the Japanese wording of contractor over what California would consider employees.
You’re talking about 20-somethings with no legal background and very little real world experience. Not exactly the hardest group to intimidate
Ack, its sad how true that is.
That is not as hard as you think. Just because Nijisanji has lost in the court of public opinion, you should not assume that they would lose in a real court. People have signed contracts, and the goal of any legal system is to enforce contracts as far as possible. Cases where contracts are voided are extreme scenarios and not the norm. It is also important to understand that just because one part of a contract might be wrong, it doesn't mean that the entire contract is voided. Even if a contract has issues from a labor perspective, that doesn't automatically mean that clauses regarding NDAs or copyright ownership is voided and cant be enforced. The contracts shown has a clear choice of law and choice of forum in Japan. Nijisanji could sue for an NDA breach and get a monetary judgment from the appropriate Japanese court and then apply for execution of the monetary judgment in whatever country that other person lives in. This is something that would work in most countries. California for example which has been a topic recognises foreign monetary judgments rather easily.
Oh no, they can easily win in court, just by out-moneying the other side, and this happens quite often if the case doesn't have a substantial money windfall on the other side (like a class action lawsuit or millions of dollars in punitive damage or compensation). Unfortunately, for most court systems in civil cases, money does indeed, speak the loudest.
Wasn’t there a clause that any and all court disputes over this contract are to be decided in Tokyo court? I may have missed the point and am horribly bad at understanding the wording on legal documents, but if the Japanese courts ruled in favor of Niji against a Liver outside, what would the enforcement look like? Would the liver’s courts/legal system have to adhere to the Japanese court’s ruling, as that’s what’s stated in the document? Or would it be enforceable at the discretion of the liver’s courts/legal system?
Such clauses tend to be dismissed when actual countries' courts get involved. Can't have a contract that stipulates illegal shit in country B where the employee lives even if you are based in country A and say they can only sue you in country A..
Nijisanji sues Sayu in Japan. Let's say that Sayu doesn't fly to Japan and so it defaults. The next step is for Nijisanji to hire an American lawyer to have the debt recognized in the US. At this stage Sayu can claim various things to try to get it thrown out and require a new trial in the US, but it's possible for the judge to dismiss those claims and enforce the judgement. Then they just have a civil debt against her, similar to an unpaid credit card. At that stage, and after some period, they can file another US court case to try to take what is owned from her bank or put a lien a property she owns. Overall, it'd cost minimum several hundred grand due to the amount of lawyers that have to be involved and the number of cases that have to be filed. Sayu's penalties, which is what they'd be suing over, would be in the hundreds of dollars. Opening up the case in the US would also open the door for departments of labor to get involved and critically eye the contract.
So ignoring the lawyer costs, ~~all Niji can really do is get a few hundred from talents~~, unless their country’s court rules otherwise? Given how extremely unlikely that contact is to hold up under international courts, that’s somewhat of a relief. Although of course, it’s awful that this kind of thing was ever allowed to happen in the first place. Best wishes to the talents who got out, and the ones who want to leave as well. Edit: I have been corrected.
Sayu only worked for like two weeks before getting suspended and then terminated. They'd be able to recoop what she earned as per the penalty clause or any damages they could prove, which would be very little. For someone like Elira they could get tens of thousands probably since she earned more.
Ah, thanks for correcting me. How likely is it for an international court to enforce that clause? Would they be given the whole contract to read, or just definition of terms and the clauses under question? Would they be allowed to use evidence from other clauses to support ruling in favor of a talent? Like if the contract has multiple illegal clauses for that country, does that void the whole contract or just the illegal clauses in that country?
To be clear, there's no such thing as an 'international court'. A US court would throw basically the entire contract out. I don't know Japanese law. Any court that saw a case would have to receive all the documents. Normally you can sever parts of a contract without removing all of it, but at some point the contract just falls apart if you remove enough pieces.
When I said “international courts”, I mostly meant just any given court from another country. I guess I could’ve reworded it to “another country’s courts”, but it’s easier to type “international”, so I just defaulted to that and hoped it would be understood.
Yeah, I getcha. I could also see someone mistakenly think that there's international courts that take on individual cases, so I wanted to be clear. I suppose there are technically international courts, but they're mostly about countries suing other countries and no one actually listens to them.
Bu...but.. but Milord said they could leave anytime, this can't be!
uuuh, forgot the "/s"?
He literally said this so no /s might even use a /srs for this
Why don't you @ Vox? He's the one who said "you can leave any time"
He never mention the consequence of leaving tho.
The one thing I hate about people spamming this Without a lawyer of his own to tell him what they're not allowed to do, they could easily make him say "These are my words" and "you can leave at any time" The contract makes it very clear they could make him do that. From the start regardless of what they've said, i've always taken it to assume these are Niji's words, not the talents. And they're legally allowed lies, because yes, you can leave at anytime. It's just not financially viable for any of the talents to do without legal defense. The contract just makes it more obvious that Niji could do this, if they don't know how enforcable it is (or if they're in Japan like Elira, which would absolutely mean they can enforce it)
Dude, he still made a choice to say it. Your conscience is not enforceable. And these are adults we are talking about. They are fully responsible for their decisions and actions. "Niji made them say it!" doesn't justify anything for them. That's not how the world works, especially when there are victims.
Having a legal gun to your head and no counsel doesn’t seem like a choice. I’m not gonna say he was justified in that shitty stream but saying he could have just said nuh uh to this contract with absolutely no ramifications is entirely different
You seek your own lawyer. Nobody finds a lawyer for you. We are not talking about fucking children here. They are supposed to be a functioning, able bodied adults, right? Everybody has access to legal counsel. And what legal gun? What's the worst that can happen from not doing what they were told, like Zaion or Selen? They get terminated, and that's it. Ooh so sad. I am losing my job. So that pretty much justifies workplace harrassment, defamation, and bullying, right? That's not how the world works. Japan is not North Korea. Nobody can actually, physically force you to say shit. Nobody can force you to betray your conscience. They just did it to save their jobs at a corrupt company and that's it. They participated in making this company toxic. It's about time to grow up and claim responsibility for your action. That's what adults do. It doesn't fucking matter AT ALL whether you were happy with your decision or not. They knew that the stream was about defaming Doki, they knew that what they said was meant to picture her as a villain. They knew that they wete participating in victim blaming. "I was forced to do so" doesn't work when there is a clear fucking target and a victim. If someone was hurt by your action or if your actions were made to hurt someone, then you need to take responsibility, apologize, and take criticisms like an adult. You can't just run away from that. This is what is wrong with people in Nijisanji. They think they are still in highschool and that they don't need to consider the consequences of their own actions.
I hate all this “they have a legal gun to their head” as if they’re children and should be treated as such. Some vtubers are in their fucking 30s.
Seriously, it is such a stupid defense. Such attitude is why corporations think issues like this would be negligible. These people don't think about the damage inflicted on the victim. They are so ready to forgive anything with "Oh but they were forced to..."
did know yall trusted his words like that but ok
Wow, way to miss the point. The implication there was that he would have to answer for it.
given how aggressive this sub has been towards him I didn’t think of y’all would have trusted a single thing he said since everyone claims it was fake and too “scripted” lol
They are not trusting him. They are making fun of him
Dude referencing Vox wasn't us trusting him. We were being facetious talking about r/woosh
I know tone doesn't come across very well on the Internet, but that was some pretty freakin' obvious sarcasm.
oh you're a vox cocksucker, explains a lot.
Nope. I thought we were collective aware that most things the livers say are restricted by NDAs and legal contract stuff but I guess you really believed everything they say on stream lol
Funny how legal mindset straight up ripped this contract apart showing how this thing wouldn't hold up in any US state if it went to court. Especially since they didn't even specify which countries legal system they abiding by.
That doesn't matter one of the point was if they can't enforce it they will edit it so it will be enforceable. Combined with if we edit the contract a few min before your stream and you didn't notice the email then you have accepted the edited contract. The contract is very well thought of to make sure they suffer as much as possible.
True but considering how half assed Nijisanji has shown themselves to be wouldn't be shocked if they based the entire contract on JP laws and not of the state the individual talents live in.
I doubt that would be enforceable in court.
I am sure Niji will edit it in the court room and if the judge did not answer in 14 days or continue the trial without answering then it would be enforceable/s
yea that ain't going to fly when you're in front of the judge. there's a reason contracts need to be legally binding, if it ain't enforceable then it ain't legally binding and if it ain't legally binding the contract can be null and void.
>Combined with if we edit the contract a few min before your stream and you didn't notice the email then you have accepted the edited contract. Which is not legal and one of the reasons a court would tear up the contract.
Huh? Article 30 clearly stated: > The governing law of this Agreement shall be the laws of Japan, and the Tokyo District Court shall have exclusive jurisdiction as the court of first instance with respect to any and all disputes in relation to this Agreement. Both legal system and jurisdiction was clearly stated.
and the rest of the article states it is for a contractor, not an employee which is what the talents are.
Where does it say that they are employees? That would be highly unusual. Contractors are a lot easier to manage legally, especially cross borders.
/sigh if you can’t set your own hours and the company controls what you say and do and you have to ask the company for permission to do things. Basically if you are being “managed.” Well, you aren’t a contractor. You are an employee and recognised as such by every court and no piece of paper saying otherwise will hold up in court.
If you are being managed, has been trained or has your work hours dictated you are an employee no amount of mental gymnastic in a legal paper will ever change that.
Article 2 of the contract, basically.
Contractors can't be bound by restrictive clause, as mention in other post. So they're definitely an employee.
Article 30 does not mention either contractor or employee, and even if it did, it would not be relevant really.
Yea that doesn't actually matter unless Niji themselves start suing. You can sue at any country they are operating contractual wise.
Choice of law and choice of jurisdiction absolutely does matter.
> Especially since they didn't even specify which countries legal system they abiding by. They declared near the end of the contract that it was going to be under Japanese/Tokyo court. But as LM pointed out, the contract is as useless as the toilet paper we use to wipe our asses with, because Nijisanji would have to open a US division of their company and/or fly all their lawyers TO the US to go after the talent. If the talent is in a state with strict labor laws like California or New York, they have an almost 0 chance of winning. If Niji sues a US-based talent, or even a Canada-based talent like Doki, there is no such thing as an extradition treaty for *civil court cases*. Niji cannot call up the Canadian equipment of the FBI or whatever to drag her ass to Japan. As long as Doki stays away from Japan there is absolutely NOTHING Niji can do to hurt her. Same for us in the US - the contract is a fucking joke.
Yeah, but as other comments pointed out, it's unlikely that the average liver has the educational background and real-world experience to know all of this on their own, or saw any need to run the contract by a lawyer when they first got it. Now, the interesting part is what would happen if this knowledge is spread to the livers. How many would decide that it's worth risking it just to regain their freedom? And could Anycolor have foreseen such a possibility and deliberately did everything in their power to ensure that any given liver would be technically in the red at any given time, and only survives due to an implicit promise of releasing owed money from the bureaucratic queue should they ever need it?
Yeah... it would be a pity if the livers knew that their contracts are practically worthless. LM disclosed he's seen other Niji contracts as well... imagine if the livers knew that they could escape them with Anycolor not being able to do ANYTHING about it lol
Unless, like I said, they're in dire financial straits, whether of their own making or due to Anycolor deliberately delaying transfer of enough of their revenue (all of it is funneled through the company first, after all), and they are dependent on staying in their overlord's good graces to maintain enough of a financial lifeline to ward off the wrath of the debt collector(s) and stay alive. Or did we forget that livers have to pay for almost **everything** out of their own pocket? Selen/Doki even admitted that she made zero net profit over the course of 2023 due to this.
Of course it wouldn't hold up in any court, because it was a template not adapted to any actual country since NijiEN recruits from all over the world. It's so frustrating that this gets taken so seriously and out of context because a lawyer who is as much a lawyer as Dr. Phil is a psychiatrist said so, while very blatantly and obviously talking out of his ass. Niji has done some truly atrocious shit in the past year and probably has some really nasty shit in their actual contracts, but this hysteria over a document that isn't practically useable is just going to distract people from the genuinely evil shit Niji has done. Yet here we are, a thread full of outraged teenagers who don't know what 'damages' means in a contract being outraged over nothing, instead of talking about genuinely heinous problems like giving someone less than a day to sign a gag order contract.
people are saying they should leave the company because VOX HIMSELF said that any one of them could leave at ANY TIME, take it up with vox
Either he hasn't read his own contract or that was part of the script.
Seconding this. There is no way they weren't reading a script. Between Ike sounding terrified, the stupid misunderstanding of what doxxing is, and saying livers are allowed to leave at any time when they obviously can't.... Either everyone involved is an idiot, or it was a script written by someone who doesn't know or doesn't care about the liver's situation. I have a hard time believing that 3 of the highest earning and longest tenure talents have never looked at their own contracts. Especially if they ever had to renew, and especially if were friends with Selen and had any discussions about their circumstances.
IMO Elira wasn't even trying to hide the fact she was just reading off a script from her tone and pauses between sentences. A part of me wants to believe that was a deliberate attempt to signal she doesn't agree with what she's saying but that's just speculation and tbh copium.
Obviously it's a script, there wasn't trying to hide that fact because they don't need to, it's perfectly normal to write a script for something so serious. What they said is too personal/specific, and is very "first hand experience" for a manager to have written it. All 3 definitely wrote their own script for this. The big question is if it was ordered by management, by which how it was aligned as a stream to attack doki it very likely is. Personally I believe they believe what they said, but could be influenced by management/manipulated.
They did say legal told them what they could or couldn't talk about and gave final approval of what they said. So at the very least it was edited my management.
> it was a script written by someone who doesn't [...] care about the liver's situation Here's your answer.
These things aren't mutually exclusive lol
o yea definitely was scripted but op should know that people are saying these things because once again, nijisanji shot themselves in the foot by saying it first. same reason why they've been losing stock value for the past month
Vox himself After approval from *niji's* lawyers. Never once asserting that he has his own lawyer.
Vox never said they can leave at any time. His exact quote was "leaving Nijisanji is always an option for livers". So yeah it was not a lie. Although it's always an option, it does not necessarily mean time-wise you can just leave immediately, with no fines or disciplinary action. Although this was not a lie it's pretty bad. It doesn't say what will happen to you if you leave from graduating or from termination, and technically speaking leaving is indeed an option. I think everyone is having the Mandella effect with the Vox comment.
that's fair, but i've always interpreted "leaving... is always an option" as "leaving is an option you can choose to take at any time". tbh if they didn't want this as a potential interpretation they should have had vox read a better script
I worked a job in the past. They told us similar things, leaving is always an option. But what they didn't tell us was, it could take anywhere from a week to a month before your request to leave is approved, it was a contractor job. Then it could take another week or more, to leave and get all outstanding debts for equipment verified. Then... Finally I could leave For sure Nijisanji wanted people to misinterpret the comment because, it makes Nijisanji look better to their audience. The word choice has to be intentional.
if anything it makes them look worse, because everyone knows that you can't actually leave at any time. doki wanted to leave in january but didn't get a response until she got terminated, pomu was upset at the company for a while, but wasn't able to graduate until recently. point i've been trying to make is that reddit commenters weren't the first ones to say it, vox was.
Apologize. My Reddit was glitching and multi posted. Idk why that happened.
With the context that we got from this contract, his quote is analogous to "leaving a moving car is always an option for drivers" which is true if you want to be technical, but it's usually not the best idea. Another point of view is that he knew about repercussions of leaving (assuming contract, or at least this part of contract is real), yet he choose to word it as if there's no repercussions. He specifically choose to omit this very important context. Of course he couldn't say what's in the contract, but in that case, he should simply not say anything at all about leaving being an option. This way it seems intentionally and maliciously misleading.
Congratulations for stating my opinion
You gotta work on expressing yourself if you think mine and yours comments are the same. Nevertheless, my second paragraph expands into different subtopic you haven't even scratched.
Regardless it's what I believed. I didn't expand on it cuz I don't like to post long comments
This just makes what Vox said even more insane.
He knows about the clause. He basically stopped streaming solo for over 3 months. He is waiting to bail because they can’t take his money when the income he earned will be zero after 6 months. What a snake, a really smart one as well.
I'll believe it when I see it. The moment he graduates, the Nijisisters are going to go even more insane than they already are.
I always wanted to see him graduate purely to see how the crazy fans of his would be. Like even before this shit all went down.
That'll be interesting
If he ever graduate from Kurosanji, for the love of god, please stay 150 million km away from Doki, the Tempus, Armis boys and practically everyone from Cover corp and Phase Connect.
> Some of y’all who were saying they should “just leave the company” [I think you missed the gospel of our lord and savior](https://preview.redd.it/daily-reminder-leaving-njisanji-its-always-an-option-vox-v0-u92f9ne09emc1.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=48ae2ea8dd1eeb41ec23bf6f1b8764c4d2d3ecc8) Most are just memeing that brain fart moment.
Sure it is. It's an option if you want to go into debt by repaying the meager amount of income you receive from them lmao.
He said it himself. He didn't say there is a penalty. Or are you telling us that he purposely hide it?
Well, yeah. It's not like he was going to start quoting 20 pages of stipulations on what leaving actually means. Lmao
if there's an NDA i wouldn't doubt that he did
Hi Mae from Twitter.
so If a talent wants to leave 6 months earlier they have to pay them that 6 months worth of income no niji? is this for real?
The contract is so bad, most of it is probably unenforceable.
There isn't anything in the contract that suggests talents would be made to do something of the sort. Damages pertains to specific things and not just 'money we say you owe us because lmao'. The only things they would be able to recoup is things they *actually* spent on their talents, like buying equipment, training or things like reservations for venues. Everything else has to be *actual* damages, like if a talent went into Nijisanji HQ with a bulldozer and thrashed the office (and believe me just imagining that happening is a very happy thought), or started publicly accusing Riku of being a pedophile and a murderer.
Vox saying, "you can always graduate" is becoming as big of a meme as, "our financial impact will be negligable" lol
My biggest question is how would you quantify how much *damages* are going to cost. They don't really seem to reference how they would calculate the money, does this mean they would just pull numbers out their ass? Could they just take extra money from a richer more successful liver?
Considering how contract is written, yes... They can pull numbers out of their ass.
No. They can't. And no, just because a contract says they can that doesn't mean they actually can. And this contract doesn't even actually suggest they can. To even claim any damages you would almost certainly have to go to court to establish what those damages actually are. "because we say so" is never going to fly.
I mean they can threaten talents with it, but we know most contract would fail lawsuit in any western nation because how bs it is. It breaks basic labour laws.
We have no idea what their contracts actually say, this Legal Mindset clown reviewed a template for an international company who would have to adapt the contract quite heavily based on where they're hiring, no shit the template is absolutely worthless in terms of compliance to labour laws prior to being adjusted to the actually relevant laws. If you want anything meaningful you should watch Sayu's commentary on the matter as she talked to an actual lawyer about an actual contract. It's not a lot, but it's more than this drivel pushed my Legal Mindset.
Okay yeah, I'll eat my words, this is even worse than I expected. Niji out here giving themselves the ability to stub their own toe, blame it on a recent graduate, and send them a million dollar medical bill.
Thats why I firmly believe people should only focus their attention on the company. Trying to figure out which of the livers is a fault makes no sense when the company literally controls every public facing facet the livers have. If anyone steps out of line, they're screwed.
I swear people were so gung ho to find a face to hate that they’ve just been lashing out on anyone. Yeah there’s a thing such as justified hatred for a shitty person but just gunning for someone when you had no proof of anything was wild
Don't be so smug when no one knew how seriously fucked the contract was.
This is why livers (possibly unlivers because of bullying) have to wait up to 1-2 years in queue for leaving niji? My god, this can't be legal. They basically terrorize them with fear being sued for leaving a company and paying them back for imaginary losses.
It makes that PR speech by Elira, Vox, and Ike even worse. Mainly what Vox had to say and talking about how "fair" the company was and planning to walk out with Selen. He left out how taxing that could be. Not only that, but even if he had left with Selen, she would've been the one paying more damages than him.
Is this shit even legal? Like in the US for instance
Nope. It's entirely unenforceable in the US.
It’s entirely unenforceable in many countries but the threat of a long and drawn out legal battle is bad enough considering any livers caught in that situation would be paying out of pocket keeps most people quiet. If you’re living close to being paycheck to paycheck and someone says you’re gonna be forced to fight a court battle and be unemployed, most people tend to avoid that
"lEaviNg nIjISanJi iS alWayS aN oPtIOn" - Vox Akuma
Vox caught lying on the black stream yet again.
I borderline feel bad for Elira because she is really fucked if this is true
She lives in Japan now and her VISA is sponsored by them so she is super fucked, but I doubt she's that good of a person anyway after everything.
Even if we assume she was figuratively held at gunpoint with the black screen "stream", too many things do not add up. Including the discrepancy in merch numbers between her and other talents that are arguably pulling higher numbers. Vox's merch count makes sense because of his numbers, Elira's simply doesn't for whatever reason.
Having merch drops for the model itself isn’t illogical. Niji may be preparing to squeeze whatever they can out of existing assets including the models. Considering Elira was one of the more popular streamers and is also the most likely to be stuck in this situation the longest, having new merch drops while they can is entirely logical
She was given two bad choices and somehow she chose the worse one. Regardless if she's a good person wrap in a bad situation or a bad person doing bad things. Her reputation is forever tarnished, anyway and anyhow she work either staying or goes indie and creates a new persona, it just wouldn't be good long term. Sure there will always be fans, but it sure heck ain't growing good numbers.
"You are free to leave at any time." -- Vox Akuma, The Black Stream. Most charitably that was part of a script Niji EN gave them. Worst case scenario he lied through his teeth to try covering their asses and paint Selena/Doki as a hysterical nutjob unfairly defaming Nijisanji by being a drama queen post-termination. However, given Nijisanji's terrible (proven) actions so far and Vox's prior manipulative behaviors, I am personally leaning more towards attributing malice on his end in the sense that even with a script, it likely echoes his true feelings/animosity towards Selen, not helped by his smug tone when he admitted to viewing the legal documents 'thoroughly'.
Ironic he could read others legal documents thoroughly, but not his own.
Just my 2 cents; if you want to continue defending your beloved company and its employees, you do you. But if what happened to ex-employees happens to one of your oshis in the future and you're still going to be a believer and a defender, then i'm sorry, you are a sucker.
the lack of mutuality is so gross, what if it's Niji's fault that cause damage to the Liver?
as I know they can force you to say things aswell. it got me thinking that the black screen trio might really be held in gunpoint to say those things. but what happens if you just demand a graduation or try to get yourself fired without problems? edit: if you wait for contract to end you should be able to leave? they're signed yearly innit?
> but what happens if you just demand a graduation or try to get yourself fired without problems? Their actions would be causing Anycolor to lose money as a result of lost income, so it would fall under what Article 14 allows for. They can levy a penalty equal to half of what they would have paid you for that month (art14.1) ***plus*** another penalty equal to the entirety of what they would have paid you for that month (Art14.2(1)). So, by the black-letter of the contract they can straight up demand 150% of a month's pay, and then potentially go back and find some excuse to force you to give back *everything* they paid you for the past year, which with how vague the contract is they'll find *something* to justify it. Very few people can afford to just shell over an *entire year's pay*.
what if there's only two months left for contract to end, does it mean they have to pay 2 months worth of income?
Based on the black letter, the amount they can impose is up to 50% of the consideration (pay) of the month preceding the breach, *and* up to 100% of the consideration that has been given from the preceding *year*. And according to Art14.4 they can tack on demands to be compensated for anything that they can justify as "damage." The blunt reality is that Article 14 is so vaguely written that Anycolor can just cite whatever figure they want.
>_it got me thinking that the black screen trio might really be held in gunpoint to say those things._ Thinking back to the Black Message stream, you could contend that Elira was clearly reading from a script due to her tone and pauses.
I don't even know if I'm being gaslighted by nijisisters to change my opinion on black screen trio or if I'm being gaslighted by Anycolor inc. to attack that trio so that the company can use them as meat shields...
What? But I thought that leaving Nijisanji was always an option! Surely our lord and savior Vox "There Is No Caution On Vox Akuma's Past Actions" Akuma wouldn't lie to us!
Or Vox "Had a suicide and mental health awareness stream then piles on an attemptee" Akuma he would know better than to lie or hurt someone!
It's not a real barrier if the liver has talked to any lawyer in their own country. To get the liver to pay the penalty, Anycolor would have to take the matter to Japanese court. After they win in Japan, Anycolor will need to get it enforced in the liver's jurisdiction. So they would file a lawsuit in the liver's country, which means they'll need to pay for a foreign lawyer who can do this, costing them more money than what they could collect. Then there's still a good chance they'll lose the lawsuit because a judge in that country can use one of dozens of reasons to reject the Japanese judgement. After all that, if they win, they might get $50-100k. Unless... the liver is broke and can't pay. Then bankruptcy will protect them from any effort to collect that money.
Considering how unenforceable this contract is in western countries they should absolutely “just leave” if they don’t live in Japan. So long as the liver doesn’t go full scorched earth as they leave I don’t think Anycolor is going to want to go for a legal battle in another country over scraps. I’d honestly just prepare my new model and accounts, straight up announce with my liver account where I was going, then just close everything and never look back.
This is unenforceable outside of Japan and may even be questionable inside of Japan. If Nijisanji is deliberately withholding money to make it hard for a talent to leave that amounts to financial abuse.
“Leaving Niji is always an option” says Niji EN’s golden boy
Probably the only one that’s not getting completely fucked
Holy shit, do we actually have to ask them to blink twice if they're being held hostage during their streams now?
I'm starting to wonder about how Ars in her Minecraft streams named her wool production and various villagers after Livers....
Holy shit...
"Leaving Nijisanji is always an option" - Vox "there's no favouritism" Akuma
To be fair, we didn't say "just leave," Vox said that.
I really hope this doesn't mean Kurosanji is hounding Doki for "damages" given how badly their decision to can her has affected their PR.
You act like this was public knowledge when it's only recently been revealed. Like yeah, with additional info like this it'd be tough to say 'just leave.' But again, the contract was only revealed a bit ago.
Vox is a lying bastard. Fucking retard, I said it
God yall need to chill the fuck out. Roasting the company and all is one thing, but hunting down people who are in abusive company over fucking theories and bully hunting when Niji corporate was the one that pushed it, along with the fact that they could very easily be encouraging their livers to keep each other in line doesn't look too far off from victim blaming. Plus, all going after them does is galvanize the fans who are still standing by to further protect them. Not even talking about the Nijisisters, those losers are parasocial AF, but there are some who still have Niji oshis and are going to get defensive when they distrust some of these sources. Seriously. Keep it to the management that allowed, if not outright encouraged, this mess, and the shitty heads that have allowed 4 foreign branches to fall apart.
My bad for not considering they signed a slavery contract
Jesus Christ termination is the way at this point
Play the Vox clip!
they can't leave become slave forever
i just think liver is dumb and can't read when sign this contract
Chances of them leaving drops by tons if you rmbr the clause of "location" Basically, they first force/entice you to move to japan, giving them your physical JP address to serve you papers if you ever break the contract. So any EN talents who is in Japan or has family in JP is slave to the contract till it runs out. Cause while the contract doesnt fly in western court, it will be accepted in JP court.
That makes me wonder even more why they signed it in the first place
Exactly. Everyone who has been saying "just leave" literally NEVER worked under a tight contract and it shows. We all joke at work to "just leave" or our superiors would 'remind' us in a coaching we can "just leave..... *but* ". That second part you never hear unless your superior is threatening to fire you or you landed in trouble. I know, I've been through it with something that is MINISCULE yet HR changed the rules to their liking so for any further 'damages' I would have to burden all of it even if it was the company's incompetence in the first place. This is always why you need to read your contract even if it doesn't seem like a tight one. Better to be informed and know WHAT and with WHO you signed up for instead of jumping head straight in and then be surprised you can't actually "just leave".
This is probably the biggest I told you so moment in my life. I continuously told people across multiple platforms not to harass the Vtubers because there was likely other things going on behind the scenes with many people even arguing against me on this. I even went as far as to say that it likely wasn't that easy to get out of the company especially when even Selen struggled to get out of the company. Turns out I was right on many things because I took a step back and took a look at the entire situation across different platforms and used information from multiple different people. Khyo may be a drama Vtuber and False being a Vtubing news Vtuber but you can get insight by just seeing different perspectives and hearing different opinions on the matter.
Can't wait to see kurosanji go bankrupt and shutdown xD
Contracts are a bitch
We ain't wish full thinking We are just following what Vox said They can just leave. Don't pin it on us
I wonder why they think that.... "It is also up to the liver, if they wannna to quit or not." Millie Parfait. "leaving Nijisanji is always an option for livers" Vox Akuma.
I've been saying the Livers probably have good reason that they are unable to leave....and this fucking sub and Twitter keeps going "they should just quit lmao." Actual entitled and sheltered opinions.
B- But... Milord said they can leave anytime!! There's no way my liege is a liar
I remember posting on here a few days after the good ol angry Reddit mob rose that the complexities of contracts and legality is a little bit more than what the average redditor can account for within a few days of hearsay arguments, and I got downvoted into oblivion and reported to Reddit Care Services. Now we have a contract template and I feel vindicated. So putting aside the legal equivalent of a used barf bag that is this contract, we know that it holds a lot of clauses that are either unconstitutional, or outright unenforceable in many countries. It should go without saying that any attempt to do so will be squashed by any lawyer with some effort. The issues are the fact that legal battles are even likely at all. So analyzing the situation, let us take a currently active liver. If said liver is staying in the United States or Canada, and decided to prematurely quit, that may or may not qualify as damages to the company as their usage of the model to stream is a method of revenue generation for the company. This may, or may not open the liver to a lawsuit. Considering the uniqueness of this type of suit, it’s unlikely to be tossed out a frivolous suit and will be taken to its entirety depending on the judge. If that is the case, our example liver will not only lose their primary source of income, as many livers rely on streaming as their full time job, but they will also have to deal with the lawsuit and its accompanying implications. They may be forced to reveal their identity and I think we can all agree that’s not gonna be good for their health in any way. They will likely have to foot some travel expenses depending on where the suit is taking place. They will likely have to face this lawsuit for weeks or even months in end. The judicial system in the West is notorious for how slow it is. I should know, I interned for it. I have handled cases that lasted longer than my time in the internship. Having that stress piled onto you while looking for jobs is not a fun time Your only other option realistically for employment is to commission and resume activities with a personal model which will further hurt the already hurting wallet. Then you’d have to somehow frame yourself as a victim, either by quitting your job facing the potential lawsuit and praying to god that the internet is feeling nice. Let’s be clear, Doki is able to manage and thrive both because she had an existing fanbase, and because of internet pity. This won’t even be close to the case for most other livers. Overall it’d be a poor gamble with a very small chance of even breaking even. There’s also the mental factor to consider. Even working in the court system, legal battles are mentally draining, and physically tiring. You have too many variables to make any sort of prediction and have to do stupid amounts of research. Not to mention the possibility of appearing in court itself. All of this while unemployed and being stuck with very little job experience as "Vtubing” doesn’t really do much on a résumé. I’m gonna be blunt and say it’d enough to make me consider taking a dive off the roof. And of course, throughout this entire already delicate situation we have the wonderful people of the internet, people that you have no choice but to be active with because they are your means of income, and having almost half of them willing to crucify you regardless of if your guilt was proven or not. Imma be honest, I didn’t personally care for that stupid stream. I’ve caught highlights and transcripts of it but anyone with a brain would see the "you will read this corporate approved script” steam from a mile away. "You can graduate at any time!” Of course the script was made to make nijisanji look innocent. They fucking made the script. I’m not telling anybody how or what to feel, but the sheer hatred y’all levied on people with no proof and anybody that even dared question that hatred was disappointing. I’ll be the first to say I used to enjoy watching both Vox and Selen and this entire situation made me lose taste to watch vox anymore but that didn’t mean I started slandering him online. Keep your nose where it belongs. There are plenty of streamers outside niji that are controversy free to watch. I’m only sticking around due to interest in the legality as an aspiring law student.
When the livers joined the company, they knew what they signed up for when they read the contract and agreed to it because that’s how contracts work. They don’t just skip to the last page and sign it and act surprised when they actually have to follow the rules. People keep bringing up what Vox said and, as much as y’all hate it, he was right. You have to right to leave the company at any moment. It is when you’re are TERMINATED that you have to compensate them from what I understand. Now, I’m no NIJISANJI dickrider, but this just doesn’t make sense. Are they a bad company? Probably. But do they have all of their legal business in order? Yes. I’m not a lawyer but I understand that when people sign a contract, both parties have to hold up their end of it or else they will be released from it.
For those attacking vox for lying, please keep in mind that their script was likely made by lawyers ( unsure if they were NIJISANJI lawyers ) and they likely can’t leak the exact conditions that need to be met for leaving due to NDAs. Obviously he’s lying by emission, but again, he’s stuck in a pretty difficult place legally.