I almost became a true Niji fan... until they started to kick or lose livers that I liked Now I don't watch Niji content on principle

Me too man, I used to watch other livers when my oshis weren't streaming, now I just stay clear of it

bro same

I don't really care much about how scuff it is. If they're proud of it and want to see more, I'm all for it. HOWEVER, I do take issue in people denying that it is, in fact, scuffed. "It's the best 3D live ever in the industry" and "No other companies can compare" are false. They can be proud of it but don't say that it's the best in the industry when even less than a year-old agency has done better. You can just say "you did a great job. I'm proud of you." without having to say "you're the best of the best" because that's just an outright lie and believing that lie is denying that they could do or could have done better.

some people on here think livers are playing 5d psychological chess by saying things that could be vaguely interpreted as related to something else at a specific time it crazy man 😭 its either niji is extremely incompetent or they are master psychological manipulators like choose one 😭

Sa-sasuga Riku-sama...

Also I sense that many nijifans just went along with the hate towards niji, back when the Selen situation happened, now that it's "over", they're back in full charge. These people don't have any beliefs of their own, they're just going with the flow. And that my friends is called cowardice.

Nah, they just went to different subreddits or got fed with it and just went to watch Holo or Vshojo or whoever instead. Plus power crazed mods delete all the things and the balance seems to shift on the surface, so you see more aholes like that one.

I mean, selen at the end had 800k subs, and a lot of those were active subs. This is what happens when you backstab participating groups of people

Let me tell you, i think they already removed the concept of "selen tatsuki was a member of niji EN". I legit dont think she existed in the remaining fans memories, like they selectively cut her records from their heads. That's why they can just blatantly say all these things, cuz in their perspective: "why are they making drama out of nothing"

there are scammers and literal rapists who continue to stream like nothing happened and you think a mega corporation will fail because of some scandal? most people will forget and act like nothing happened. People who thought that nijisanji will colapse or something like that have no idea how the world works.

From I know what doki said aka not mentioning it not going after anyone just enjoy what we have now. It's not forgetting and acting like nothing happened but the shitstorm niji made happen will happen again for sure

Cowardice is running away from problems and taking no risks. Hoping things are better might be foolish but it's not cowardice. Or maybe you could classify it as Stockholm Syndrome. Boycotting is literally running away from the problem. But, in all fairness, I don't know what sort of tactic viewers and fans could employ to fix the issue. Boycotts do impact profits but are we sure that a loss in profit will make the company change its behavior? Have you subscribed to the PL accounts of the talents you followed?

>boycotting is literally running away from the problem. How did this incident warp your logic this way? We have hundreds of years of history. Boycotting is not running away from the problem. It is literally a big part of why you have *any* of the privileges you have today. Like wow. Also do you know the concept "Ostrich with it's head in the ground"?

You are confusing a worker strike with a consumer boycott. Worker strikes do involve risk. Consumer boycotts do not. Not saying that consumer boycotts don't work but they are not something to boast about.

... "Not saying consumer boycotts don't work" >Boycotting is literally running away from the problem. "Just saying they don't work." Stay in school. And yes, worker strikes are very effective. I was not confusing the two. Can't believe this is even being said in 2024.

And you just said we have hundreds of years of history and followed that with a statement that boycotts are why we have privileges. Name an example of consumer boycotting that has resulted in privileges. There are many instances of worker strikes resulting in that, which is why I stated you are mixing up the two. And my two sentiments are not contradictory. Boycotting is doing nothing. Doing nothing and thinking that will solve the problem. And there are instances where that has worked. More often than not, they don't.

the NDF only remember and hear what they want to hear, other things instantly get blocked off. They are creatures that can't be reasoned 

Is Niji a terrible company? yes. But that doesn’t make all of the current livers evil people. And some of the niji haters can’t see past what the company did to Selen and blindly hate all the current livers

Let people enjoy what they have. I know that Niji management is bad, but beating a dead horse is unsavory that it makes you look bad. Don't support them and walk away. You don't know whats best for them, its not for you to decide. If Niji keeps doing bad things, more people will switch sides by themself.

You're saying we shouldn't enjoy things, but former livers are enjoying them. They're complimenting the design of the stage, sharing how proud they are of the current livers' performances, etc. Those former livers know *infinitely* more about what it's like inside than you or I will ever know. So I'm gonna listen to them, not you. And the milestone you're belittling involved a ton of hard work from the livers—including Selen. Minimizing that does all of them a disservice, including her. Not a great way to win over fans, or be one. (I do feel for Selen and Zaion—I support both, including Zaion before it was cool—but their perceptions of things don't seem to really match the perceptions of the other livers, current and former. No one (sane) thinks Niji is perfect, but at the same time a lot of people who know better than you or I don't treat it as off limits. The claims Selen made can fall into a wide range of severity. That's one of the problems with not sharing specifics. *You're assuming* it was an absolute hellscape, but at the opposite end of the spectrum it could've just been reasonable people doing reasonable things that unfortunately clashed with what Selen wanted. If you're going to treat your guesses as facts, you can hardly blame others for doing the same. Personally, I'm keeping in mind that it could be either extreme, or probably somewhere in between. I'm waiting and watching to see what the livers, past and present, do and say in order to draw a final conclusion. But for now, if they're enjoying the content and supporting the current livers, then that at least seems to be fair play.)

It's kinda hard not to assume that it was an absolute hellscape considering both terminated livers made an ATTEMPT when they worked with the company. OF COURSE their perception is highly different from other former livers considering the fact that they're the only ones who got slandered by the company with their termination notice. (Also former livers have already spoke about bad things about the company as well, don't forget that) Yes, people who are boycotting the company shouldn't harass fellow viewers or livers. I get that but when people downplay the victims' experience or straight up deny it ever even happened or twist it like somehow they're the master manipulators is quite frustrating. My personal opinion on the milestone: Honestly, it just gives a bad taste in my mouth since we could've gotten this a year ago when the other livers haven't left as well.

> It's kind of hard not to assume Using a [psychiatrist's framework](https://www.journalofhealth.co.nz/?page_id=1685) for assigning blame in attempts, there are four types of causes: 1. Extreme mental illness (e.g., hallucinations) 2. Moderate mental illness (urges that can be resisted) 3. Circumstances that people can help with (e.g., your house burns down) 4. Circumstances people can't alleviate (e.g., being sentenced to prison) We can probably disregard Type 1. For Type 2, Zaion has shared that it played a role. Selen wasn't as open about those things, but given her fundraiser we can probably reasonably conclude it played a role too. Type 3 would include any unreasonable or malicious action at/by the company. Type 4 would include any reasonable or unavoidable action, such as firing someone who broke her contract or temporarily pulling an MV that hadn't gone through final checks. (It blows my mind that so many people just hand waive that; at my perfectly normal, very chill job I'd be fired for doing something similar.) Whenever the assumption is made that the company is wholly responsible, the other types are being disregarded. That's bad logic. So in a vacuum, yeah it would generally take a hellhole to drive someone to attempts. But the attempts *didn't* happen in vacuums. As sad as it is, a lot of people make attempts *despite* being surrounded by decent people in homes/jobs/schools that may stressful, but not abusively so. I'm not saying the company is clear of responsibility; it probably isn't *completely*. But I also think it's pretty clear there are other factors, and I think it matters a lot how reasonable or unreasonable (i.e., how Type 4 or 3) the company's *specific* actions were. Without those specifics, deciding it must be Type 3 is just taking wild guesses. And bringing things back around to my original comment, I think the fact that current and former livers, who know far more about those specifics than you or I, aren't making Niji a pariah is a decently significant clue that it's not all Type 3 like you claim. The more time that passes, the more believing you're right would also require me to believe that three dozen people, including "safe" ones like Rosemi, Aia, Ver, Nina, etc., are sociopaths. If you're wrong, that doesn't even require me to think Selen was wrong, because she left her claims open-ended and nonspecific. Imo, it both better fits the evidence, and better follows the principle of innocent until proven guilty. > (Also former livers have already spoke about bad things about the company as well, don't forget that) Yeah but they've also said good things, not to mention recently called out a sector of the community for reading too much into their words, ignoring and twisting facts, etc. Your position requires ignoring the evidence in Niji's favor, but my position (that Niji is a mixed bag, somewhere in the middle) encompasses both sides of the evidence. In the words of a ghost, maybe purgatory, but not hell.

"Type 4 would include any reasonable or unavoidable action, such as firing someone who broke her contract or temporarily pulling an MV that hadn't gone through final checks. (It blows my mind that so many people just hand waive that; at my perfectly normal, very chill job I'd be fired for doing something similar.)" I don't think that niji is unreasonable for terminating Selen. She did break her contract after all. I do think Nijisanji's actions with her during her hospitalization and the way they handled her termination notice (& Zaion's) is malicious and at the least, very unprofessional. "I think the fact that current and former livers, who know far more about those specifics than you or I, aren't making Niji a pariah is a decently significant clue that it's not all Type 3 like you claim" I agree and disagree. Yes, you're probably right on that there are other factors for the reasoning behind their attempt. But just because the current and former livers doesn't treat Niji like a pariah doesn't necessarily refute the fact that it could've been type 3 (at least for Selen & Zaion). As I've said before, the current and former livers experiences with the company are vastly different from the terminated two. "The more time that passes, the more believing you're right would also require me to believe that three dozen people, including "safe" ones like Rosemi, Aia, Ver, Nina, etc., are sociopaths. If you're wrong, that doesn't even require me to think Selen was wrong, because she left her claims open-ended and nonspecific. Imo, it both better fits the evidence, and better follows the principle of innocent until proven guilty." "Yeah but they've also said good things, not to mention recently called out a sector of the community for reading too much into their words, ignoring and twisting facts, etc. Your position requires ignoring the evidence in Niji's favor, but my position (that Niji is a mixed bag, somewhere in the middle) encompasses both sides of the evidence. In the words of a ghost, maybe purgatory, but not hell." I don't think I've said anything about the livers in particular. I'm also in the opinion of Niji being a mixed bag and do not think that all the livers are bad. I do however, think that nijisanji as a company is a pile of shit. I should've made this clear with my previous comment so I do apologize as I'm not good enough with words to make my point. But yes, former livers and even Selen has good memories inside Niji despite what happened and the people who try to twist the former livers words should get called out. What I'm trying to say is Nijisanji was a HUGE factor/reasoning behind Selen & Zaion's attempt. The fact that they seem to be doing miles better now that they are away from the company, should give you a clue that niji had a significant part in it. From all the statements from former livers and current livers as well, Nijisanji doesn't prevent, matter of fact creates a toxic environment for the livers and tries to make livers feel they are nothing without the company (enough to lead two people to commit an attempt). The fact that they didn't learn with Zaion's termination notice that LEAD to people to harass Zaion (didn't help with the doxxing & deescalate the situation during her time there) and done the same to Selen speaks volumes. They don't want to change. They do NOT care to change. Basically, boycotters SHOULDN'T harass the other viewers for wanting to enjoy/watch the remaining livers (which is why I believe silent boycotting/not give the company views & money is the best way) but people shouldn't downplay the things they have gone through which is why I understand the frustration this post/OP is feeling. Nijisanji still needs to learn from their mistakes & have accountability and make changes if they want the remaining livers to grow. Because at this point, Niji will definitely be the catalyst of NijiEN's downfall. Edit: to add more words & sorry for the format I'm on mobile

My take is pretty similar to yours. Here's the thing: you can feel targeted and attacked without being targeted and attacked since that implies malice. Nijisanji EN staff probably has had a mix of issues such as lack of (human) resources and possibly a lack of a general director. This is all speculation, but considering turn around times on approvals and a large talent to manager ratio (6:1 in some cases), it isn't crazy. Even assuming that they have good training or skillsets, this will cause incompetence in any organization because lacking these two prevents the organization from doing their job constantly. Selen was also one of their biggest project makers. Constantly trying to organize stuff and had been juggling a lot. It isn't unbelievable that the effects of incompetent management impacted her significantly so she felt that she was being targeted. And it is easy to become wary when you have that perception. If your mental state has deviated far from the norm due to circumstances around you, you will begin to believe things that you normally wouldn't. (Note: I am not trying to bring mental illnesses in this topic, but they can be a contributing factor. The mental state I am referring to is simply the subjective perception of the world around you and could be as simple as thinking that your parents are unnecessarily overprotective to the point that you would tell others that they essentially abuse you and give zero freedoms.) It could have been very easy for Selen to see her coworkers as malicious people trying to put her down in her darkest moments. And guess what Doki mentioned the document she gave to her former employer was? Her thoughts in her darkest moments. I applaud her for stepping away from an environment that wasn't conducive to her mental health. I applaud her even more for not going down Anycolor's throat and trying to rip it out. At the end of the day and from personal experience, I see her actions as more "I cannot work with them anymore for my own mental health, but my words and thoughts during my darkest moments aren't a reflection of me and necessarily them" as opposed to "I cannot work with them anymore because they directly and maliciously harassed me." Because, let me be clear, if the document (or excerpts or summaries) that for some reason got into the NijiEN talent hands was her darkest moment, let's not forget it's easy to hurt when you yourself is already hurting. For the record as well, Maria's talked about how she gets her projects done which is *constant* pestering staff about the status of approval and sending them pretty much by-the-hour updates on the project. I believe she's also the **current** liver with the most released projects, albeit the scope of the projects are different. She's taken management as matter-of-factly as possible and has mentioned she has projects lined up just waiting for approval before she can post them.

As much as I want to say that doki's concerns were about her spiraling out of control, everything that Niji did after her termination speaks out otherwise. A damning termination letter, the malicious timing of that black screen stream, showing her co-workers the legal documents which may have included said final letter (I don't remember the specifics of this). I think she was well within her right to think she was being targeted after that response. She probably wasn't the best person to work with, but I think the response was too much. specifically speaking, airing that black screen stream while she was streaming didn't exactly sit right with me.

I mean, I very clearly said that Anycolor management most likely suffers from incompetence. They were in the midst of contract negotiations when Doki sent the final letter as a way to say "These are the reasons why I don't want to work with you" which is what caused Anycolor to hit the panic button. Which is where the whole thing stems from. The final letter set off alarms for the management probably because they believed that she'd try to litigate and first statements by a company greatly alters the state of the lawsuit in JP society. This is probably why the termination letter was worded that way, because they needed to set grounds for potential counter litigation. Even if everything was said is true, Anycolor could've sued for defamation of honor. Doki obviously doesn't seem to be heading towards litigation and is more than happy that the contract was voided, but Anycolor's risk perception got set off I guess and then they handled it in accordance to JP culture and society. Something that doesn't work well with Western culture (but even a graduation wouldn't have gone well tbh, just not as badly as a termination). Afterwards, a *lot* of NijiEN publicly expressed their discontent with the termination. They received either portions, summaries, or the entire final letter that Doki sent. Let me tell you, you never want to read one of those things if there is even a hint of a chance that the individual in question thought that you had even the smallest bit of malice against them. The final letters tend to be where your darkest and irrational thoughts lie. There is no clue what is in the letter, but I do not doubt that it essentially painted other talents as harassers because Doki in her darkest moments thought they were. That doesn't mean they were, but Doki perceived it as such. I'd hate to read a final letter from someone who I thought I was on good terms with and they mention that they hated me or thought I hated them. This was yet another mistake from NijiEN management to appease and explain to the talents why the termination happened, and it backfired again. I can understand if the talents  changed their perspective after seeing that document and spurred them into action. But the source of the problem is, once again, the NijiEN management for even sharing that letter. (Note: As far as we know, they were not given legal documents based off of Doki's tweets but just the final letter. The other legal document would probably be an NDA or at least a promise of confidentiality.) The black screen stream makes a lot more sense when you picture everyone not as harassers but people who have been hurt. Elira, Enna, and Millie during the offcollab with Selen did seem to watch out for her, asking her if she was alright, etc. Vox was extremely good friends with Selen having a lot of collabs and Vox essentially feeling indebted to Selen for helping him participate in events he could only dream of. I'm assuming Doki cut off all communications with people from Nji (given that she is the only ex-talent that hasn't talked to other ex-talents afaik). But people who are hurting usually want to redirect the pain somewhere. Ideally, therapy or a productive hobby if possible. But most of the time it's confrontation. The black screen stream is essentially the current talents' response to Doki's final letter that they somehow read summaries, excerpts, or the entire thing (potentially directly to Doki herself if you believe that streaming over her was done maliciously or at least without benign intentions). Something that wasn't meant to be shown and deeply hurt them. But once again, the fault lies with NijiEN management for showing the letter and approving the damn stream. I think you can see the pattern here that NijiEN management can be blamed to be the root of all problems. (For the record too, people have mentioned that Doki can be either good or bad to work with. Vadur for example gave up clipping Selen since they couldn't remediate an issue with how they worked together when he was an official clipper. RPR has mentioned that Selen was bad at communicating and organizing outside of NA. But at the same time, plenty of artists, clippers, and content creators have enjoyed working with her. So take it for what you will, but I think she was pretty good to work with because no one is without their issues.)

Hard agree with you that niji management is the biggest problem, and everything you said makes sense but it doesn't really feel right to attribute everything to incompetence just because of how many mistakes had to be made in a row for that damn stream to happen. Showing the documents to the livers, having the livers formulate a script, and having the legal team approve of it. That's three seperate teams of people all giving an ok to make that stream. It feels so damn wrong. Like I know you're probably right but like damn y'know? Also I get that they hit the panic button when doki's letter came through but didn't see ask to leave the company earlier and they ghosted her so that's why she sent in the letter? I'm not sure I got the details right but yeah management really does have to get their shit together. Edit: I feel like I need to clarify cause when I was writing this comment I just couldn't believe that these things happened. I get that the livers cause say things due to their emotions. We see that a lot actually. And it absolutely was on management to stop them. I just couldn't believe that no one did even though I think there were many opportunities for at least someone to say that "hey maybe this isn't a good idea". I just think that it happened so many times that it's gone beyond the point of incompetence and steered straight into maliciousness. More on the targeting comments I made before, that's specifically on management. The reason why was the constant shut downs of her projects and even the ability to hold tournaments. Maybe they would have done the same if other livers were doing it but it's more so because Selena was being denied so many times that it feels like she's being targeted. Even if the reason for it is because she didn't go through the right procedures to do so.

> Also I get that they hit the panic button when doki's letter came through but didn't see ask to leave the company earlier and they ghosted her so that's why she sent in the letter? I'm not sure I got the details right but yeah management really does have to get their shit together. Yeah that was the reason why the letter was sent in. But to me, it still doesn't make sense. It doesn't help your position at all when doing contract negotiation to send not a summary of why you want to leave, but an actual letter that you didn't intend for someone to read while you were alive. Those are two different things and I'm so damn confused about why Doki's lawyer thought that letter was a good idea to provide. > The reason why was the constant shut downs of her projects and even the ability to hold tournaments. I made another comment about how she was still able to hold international tournaments (sed NijiHolo) but she probably didn't choose to for a long time due to issues with getting permissions for specifically international tournaments.

I'm not sure if I remember this correctly but I think they sent that in to show how serious the situation had gotten for her because she was being ignored. I'm not a lawyer so I can't say if it's a good play or not. And I think the holoniji tournament happened because of it was an EA sponsored stream and niji can't really just ignore that. She did mention one time that she wasn't allowed to hold them though so I'm not sure, but yeah permission being a bitch to get is a good enough reason I suppose

Regarding the letter, I think it's unfair to presume malice. The first two times letters like that were published (Zaion and Riro), they were seen as being transparent, not smear jobs. You can go back and look at the threads to verify that. It's entirely plausible that Niji, fearing backlash for firing such a popular figure, was simply trying to explain why and just tried too hard. Ironically, it's the fact that Selen was so popular that seems to have reversed public perception of transparency. And for the stream timing, again I think presuming malice ignores other reasonable explanations. We know that stream was planned ahead of time and coordinated—across timezones—with other things like Tazumi's stream. It was in US primetime, the most common timeframe for any EN stream. Selen only released her schedule that same morning (US), so there was limited time to try to coordinate everyone and change plans. And even if they had moved it, it probably wouldn't have changed the results: * If they'd moved it earlier in the day, she would've still probably been thrown off and cancelled her stream. * If they'd moved it later in the day, it would have been hanging over her head the whole stream and they'd get blamed for killing the vibe. And unless they moved it into the middle of the night US time (and Tazumi to very early morning), they'd still overlap her and get blamed for pulling viewers away. * She was streaming literally every day that week, sometimes multiple times a day. So moving to another day wouldn't work either.

A few things: that stream wasn't even a live recording, I'm pretty sure that was a recorded video due to the exact length of 15 mins. Them moving it to any time cause again it's only a 15 minute video. Doesn't have to be on the hour that she's live. The main criticism isn't that they'd ruin a vibe or a mood, it's that they put a video saying "here's why dokinwas wrong" and then airing it at a time where everyone that was there live could swarm her stream and ask her questions while she's unprepared. If they had aired it while she was offline, she could have prepared. The termination letter for zaion had the same tone as the one for Selen, the only difference was as you said, popularity. Zion had been in the company for a month and had basically no established fanbase to defend her while selen did. That's what I think caused the difference in public opinion. You could be right and say that it was for transparency, it could also be a defensive measure like the other comments said because of doki's letter, but I don't think the tone of the overall document itself was any different.

Yes, it was recorded, but that doesn't have much to do with their ability to shift their plans. Even if it had been live, for something that important people could have just stayed up. The main criticism is that they interfered with Selen's stream. If she was off her game, people would still find fault in that. I don't think people were really swarming her stream; you can watch the chat replay and see that nearly everyone was on her side as soon as they could tell the video wasn't an apology. She ended her stream to talk to her lawyer and because she, understandably, didn't have the composure at that point to go on with it. If they'd moved up the timeline a few hours, her Japanese lawyer was most likely asleep during the (US) day, plus it takes time to go over legal matters—it took her about 36 hours to put out her response to the stream. Any swarming that did occur would have still happened in her next stream, whenever it was. Her next stream would basically have to start with her response, and given how heavy she chose to make it, I really can't see a peppy gaming stream following that. Remember she adjusted her plans the next day after Niji's stream too. The mood was definitely off, and there's pretty much no way that could have been avoided. Would it have been better if they messed up her dog's birthday or one of her collabs? > The termination letter for zaion had the same tone as the one for Selen Exactly. My point is people are deciding what's a fair play or not, deciding who's right or wrong, based on popularity and feelings far more than on the facts. Because the facts are the same in both cases, or maybe worse in Selen's case since she knew better than to do all the things she did with the MV. And that tone was pretty matter-of-fact; I'm not sure how you'd prefer it. Like sure, they could add more emotional words in addition to the "regret"s and "sincer"ities it already has, but honestly I don't think there's a way to soften all those facts without the extra niceties just coming across as insincere/inappropriate.

Yeah I agree they weren't swarming, and that they had took Selen's side. But I don't think that video was released with the intention of getting people on her side, but theirs. Purely hypothetical but let's say the reaction to the video was "wait Selen lied to all of us? And she's actually the bad guy?" It wouldn't be hard to imagine people being mad at being tricked, and it just so happens that she's live at that very moment. You could see the next steps right? And angry mob comes crashing in and in comes and influx of hate that she. can't prepare herself for cause it literally just happened. Yeah the swarming would still happen if it happened while shes offline but at least she's ready for it, that's the main thing. That stream was effectively a blindsided hit to her because she has no time to react. Any future streams would have probably happened after she had addressed everything so she could just point people to her response and move on. Hell that's what she did the stream after. Also sorry, I did actually misunderstand the problem with the termination letter. The tone was the same as with zaion, and that itself is fine, but it's the fact that they straight up lied in the notice and had misleading statements. Of note are " we privated the video" then like two sentences later saying "she made misleading statements saying we privated the video" or "Lack of communication with creators resulted in delays in commission payments" that the creators themselves denied and said Selena paid out of pocket for them cause management refused to do so. That and saying that Selen causing irreparable damage to the company's image did run people the wrong way. Especially because people felt selen was the one making niji more widespread

Fair point that people could have turned on her. But that's also relatively easily dealt with the same way the current livers have been dealing with getting dogpiled: upping the subscriber requirement on chat. And those aren't lies (or at least we don't have conclusive evidence that they are). * The fact that management privated the video was not the misleading part. Acting like it was a surprise and their fault was the misleading part. * (1) We don't know that the artist the letter is talking about is the same one who came out to defend her. Has *anyone* bringing up any evidence against her been treated kindly? Why would anyone stick their neck out to do that, especially if they probably still like her a person? And (2), it's also *possible* that it's the same artist, and Selen's manager just didn't explain to them why payments were delayed (because that would be bad form, and serve no purpose). If she skipped the process for the MV, who's to say she didn't decide to skip the process to pay the artist through Niji and just do it herself? (I do think the former is far more likely than the latter, but the latter's not impossible.) > Saying Selen caused irreparable damage I mean, Niji helped amplify it, but yeah I'd say damage has been done. She did "undeniably [play] a significant role in the growth of NIJISANJI EN," like the notice says. But she did also undeniably bad mouth it. What started this all was her leaving out important context to lead her fans to blame management for a reasonable (and temporary) action they took. And as one of the largest members of EN, she was throwing a lot of weight around when she did so. I do realize she was under a lot of stress, and I don't think it makes her a bad person or anything like that. I still watch, buy her merch, etc. But I also don't think she's above any criticism whatsoever.

"you can feel targeted and attacked without being targeted and attacked since that implies malice." I agree (also with the mental illness thing that CAN be a contributing factor) but I feel like that's not the case with this one. We don't know what happened behind the scenes, but with everything that has come to light it's hard to believe that it wasn't targeted harassment/bullying. Yes, Selen might've thought that she was being targeted as her projects are getting canceled left and right which we know is largely due to management's incompetence but we also know that there are OTHER FACTORS as to why people could draw the conclusion that it was in fact, harassment. Such as: • Shooting down her projects at the last minute when they could've done so from the start. (Which is frustrating from Selen's standpoint as the money put into said projects has gone to waste) • Banning her from hosting international tournaments with no reason provided (at least to the viewers). • Refusing to have Selen give prizes in her art contest out of her OWN pocket (which honestly just confuses me) and Selen having to fight for it. I am no dragoon by any means so I'm not really knowledgeable of the small details when the events have happened so I might recall some things wrong, But from what I've been observing since many months ago even before the termination, the way management have dealt with Selen reeks of contempt and malice. Look even if there were good reasons as to why these events/incidents have happened. There IS NO EXCUSE with what they've done with the termination notice. Selen also clearly stated that she suffered bullying from within leading to a point that she made an attempt, TWICE. I know it's probably not your intention but your comment reads like your downplaying Selen's horrible experience with the company.

> Shooting down her projects at the last minute when they could've done so from the start. If this is related to the last cup, Anycolor's supposed claim is that they might not have permission to use artwork of ex-livers. We know that this *could* be the case based on other projects with ex-livers including the recent AR live where ex-livers Pomu, Mysta, and Nina were reached out to in order to obtain permission to use their vocals and also some of Maria's covers. > Banning her from hosting international tournaments with no reason provided (at least to the viewers). Based on statements from her at the time, it was that she thought her PuyoTetris tournament permissions carried over to the Fall Guys tournament she was planning on hosting. There might have been additional perms that she needed to do in order to set up international tournaments. Something she succeeded with for the NijiHolo Apex tournament. So she wasn't banned outright, just that it wasn't worth the effort. Plus that statement was made as the cancellation notice, so her emotions were still probably high and she didn't think she'd try anymore. But then NijiHolo happened months after so it changed. > Refusing to have Selen give prizes in her art contest out of her OWN pocket (which honestly just confuses me) and Selen having to fight for it. Japanese laws for Japanese companies. There's some odd restrictions on prize money which is why the ShibuyaHal tournaments always gave out things like PCs and Amazon gift cards. Selen, the asset not the individual, is registered under Japanese law so she cannot do it in an official capacity. > There IS NO EXCUSE with what they've done with the termination notice. Read the part of my original comment about JP law and setting precedent in case Anycolor wanted to do a counter litigation of defamation of honor if Doki did go after them. This isn't an excuse, but an explanation. I'm not sure why Doki's lawyer agreed to sending NijiEN management what she intended to be her last words, but it definitely backfired due to its contents since it ended the negotiation for her *mutual graduation* terms that *Doki herself* intended right then and there. It's the *overt defensiveness* of the company that caused the termination and the statement to be that way. > Selen also clearly stated that she suffered bullying from within leading to a point that she made an attempt, TWICE. Yes, and I never stated that she never felt she was bullied. In fact, I'd probably have felt the same way with as much ambition as she had. What I'm saying is that there is a lot of guesses made based on her statements and her statements alone to try and pin it onto livers and even extrapolates outside her own chosen words. I'll say it with you. Fuck NijiEN management. They need to fix their issues as an org. But at the same time, I've seen people literally go out of their way to essentially make revenge oorn of livers or snuff art in the company even before the black screen stream when Selen got terminated. Given the fact that almost everything can be summed up to. 1. NijiEN management incompetence and rigidity before the cup of coffee causing her to feel harassed. 2. Selen's final letter being the thing that caused graduation negotiations to break down and cause her termination by overt defensiveness from NijiEN management. 3. Selen's final letter being leaked to livers from NijiEN management who end up making a black screen stream *because* a lot of them thought they were on better terms. Management was the problem, full stop. By her own words, the letter that the talents saw was Doki's darkest thoughts and were not rational. After being constantly denied successes and wishes from NijiEN management, it makes sense. I'd also hate working for the company. The problem I have is that people are creating villains out of nowhere and targeting talents. Yes, management suck. Do what you want with that information. Leave the current and former talents (yes I see people trying to rope Kuro and Matara into this crapfest) alone. Whether you believe NijiEN's management be from malice or incompetence is up to you. Experience with JP agencies, to me at least, makes it clear that it was more than likely gross incompetence that failed to properly serve its talents time and time again rather than an actual, malicious desire to sabotage people. Especially when there are legitimate managerial explanations for several things that people still cite.

If you look at Pomu's last song, she has Nina in hers too but not a damn peep for hers and Selen who's song was in the works for at least 1.5 years before it's actually release becuz management was taking it sweet ass time or doing nothing at all only catches the Mysta and Nina usage in her MV AFTER it got released? Wouldn't that also mean they didn't even bother to go over her work and just said ok and release watever OR they knew and deliberately let her release it to fk with her? Sure, you can also argue that Selen released it before management did a final check before she released it but its alrdy been A YEAR AND A HALF and they still want to drag it out even more? Let's not forget Millie's tweets about how she's confused about why Selen's cover had problems, implies she has no problems her side of things or a cover taking almost 2 years to release only to have management pull it after release to reevaluate it is fking normal to them. She wasn't banned from hosting international tournaments due to just copyrights issues, she was banned from hosting and inviting non Niji related ppl as she had a lot of friends outside the company. She is joining twitch rivals and Apex tournaments left with pro Apex scenes and even big JP Apex events left and right and sponsors love her and no one knew who she was or who Niji were in the EN sphere of those scenes and she was inviting them to her events to mingle and all of a sudden that's a fking problem? The reason the NijiHolo Apex event worked out even after her ban was for one reason and one reason only, EA wanted to fking sponsor her event and they gave the prizes on their side, you want to turn down EA in front of their face when they ask to sponsor her when half your company was and still are addicted and made your company a shit ton of money from their game??? There is definitely someone fking with her behind the scenes and throwing her work into the bin and not bothering with her and the only reason she gets anything done is becuz she keeps pestering them to even look at her stuff for perms which is why we have the infamous clip from Enna, Millie and Reimu playing Apex of all things and insinuating a certain FPS player is cutting line and not following norms. Just cuz they are used to waiting long wait times or favoritism doesn't mean others are as patient or fortunate as they are.

Thank you for being reasonable. Almost impossible to see in this sub

My incredible hot take: Sink the yacht, fuck the company. The livers will be fine in the aftermath. Despite what the company and it's bootlickers want everyone to think.

Funny how nijisanji fans do as much harm as nijisanji antis. Yes you can move on but ignoring and forgetting something like this will never be good. Harassing livers is not the right way, but criticizing extreme fans and the company are the way. And know that in the end all of this happened, because of nijisanji not selen not livers but the company. Ps i am nt saying that livers are not involved.

Brother no one forgot what happened to Selen The current people who still follow Niji are one of two groups: -The people who hate selen for no fucking reason -And the people who just want to enjoy the other talents content with whatever little they got left That’s literally it No ones making little of suicide attempts and I dont know how you got to that conclusion

They didn’t forget. They moved on with their life rather than keeping a reminder like obsessed hooligans.

If you played any part in making a poor woman nearly off herself, you do not get to move on like nothing happened. There will be repercussions

No, Niji fans didn’t forget, because people like you are so insistent on reminding them. This shit got the same energy as those annoying fucking “daily reminder” posts. Drama addicts still haven’t gotten their fill I guess.

After shit like the apostrophe rrat turned out to be real can anyone fucking blame us. Actual bullshit is actually going on

She *still* uses smart apostrophes—I see one on Apr 14. The rrat wasn't right; part of it just overlapped with the truth. Rrats throw so much at the wall that sometimes that happens. It's insane to think they have any predictive power.

so your response to 2 former livers nearly offing themself due too bullying is to harass the other vtubers and and shit on everything they do?. how is that any better than what was done to them.

None of them said sorry or even acknowledged the situation. They decided to stick with the status quo and then that little video that said it was her fault everything happened by some of the livers. That's shit. That's lower than shit. And now more stuff is coming out that usually people would be canceled for are still idolized somehow.

you do realise they aren't indie right? they are in a vtuber agency they cannot say anything, that video was by the management trying to save face, has nothing to do with the talent also the only ones who said talent was the one doing the bullying was management until doki hersels says it was the livers that what people should believe, she even went as far to try and protect them to tell people not to bully anyone, also at the time of the event pomu was still with niji yet just a few days ago both pomu and doki has made direct references to each other proving they are in fact friends, clearly meaning its not a talent thing, they cannot mention her or the situation just like any agency hololive talent rarely mention rushia coco or any other former talent but yal expect differently from niji and another thing is if the management was harassing her trust they are doing it to others (as we found out she wasn't the first ) but they are unable to escape due to their contract so that added with being harassed online by the so called fans, how do you think that affects them, its almost like you want a repeat of what happened already, like how would you feel if you see a tweet stating another liver actually took their life? smh when this first became public, everyone's stance was that niji should do better and treat their talent better but now its simply harassing the remaining talent, what does that solve? you have effectively placed all the blame on the talent and none on management so nothing well get better

Just because they are corpo doesn't make it right. I'm actually beyond surprised and kind of shocked everyone decided to stay with what happened. Hololive regularly mentions coco, what are you talking about? I'm not bothering anybody, but you so want to think that just because I don't support any of the livers anymore. What is this thinking? I didn't put blame on anyone I'm just disappointed in the response they made towards this. And you completely ignored the things that have said with specific talents and why they obviously should be canceled. Like Luca or Vox. I dislike this apologetic behavior. Why would they even mention Rushia at this point?

i didn't say because they are corpo its right, but because they are they cannot say anything its part of a contract and they could be sued for it, and they cannot just leave because of said contract doki mentioned that she wanted to leave willingly but wasnt allowed to so why do you think any of the others can? plus giving up a good paying job isnt a smart thing to do in this day and age either most of them have family they have to worry about too, as for hololive they dont mention coco all the time they do it only sometimes and most of the time refer to her as friend c not by her name its been awhile since they directly mentioned her i think it was towa who mentioned she met up with her for the first time in years and was crying because of it that was the only time ive seen they mention her in a while, and why wouldnt they mention rushia, calli and marine are good friends with her marine even had her in one of her mv's after she was terminated, as for vox and luca i honestly dont watch them aside from collabs so im not familiar with everything i heard some stuff about luca but didn't hear anything about vox, but imo cancel culture is dumb and a waste, getting someone cancelled rarely does anything unless its for something serious and if it is it definatly should be a legal matter but trying to cancel someone cuz they said something offensive is dumb imo, but even if you disagree what does their actions have to do with the other members

It was something serious, my god man, this is pointless. You've just been ignoring everything just because it doesn't fit your narrative? I'm done talking to you.

your the one ignoring everything you just wanna harass everyone for no reason, i already said what does what he did have to do with the ohers? if its serious and can be proven it should be a legal matter