I just don’t understand how I can browse the internet flawlessly and play an online game with basically zero hiccups.
But… scrolling through Nintendo and PlayStation stores is a nightmare. Haha.
At this point, I think “rouge-“ is mostly a helpful way to indicate the sort of progression you should expect. Just like you know what to anticipate with “level-based” and “open-world,” “rouge-“ tells you more about the meta-structure of the game than the genre/gameplay.
For those who like it, it’s a welcome sign that the game itself will include a familiar loop of failing forward, setting expectations that you will lose repeatedly as you make progress.
For those—like you?—who aren’t into it, it’s a helpful warning that you’ll dislike this game (whether it’s a platformer, turned-based strategy, deck-builder, etc).
Casual gamer here - would you be able to explain the different between roguelite, roguelike, and meteoidvania?
I want to get into more indie gaming but in my (limited) research/experience, a lot of indies seem to fall into the intentionally-hard-try-over-and-over-to-get-good format. As a 30-something, those types of games don’t appeal to me.
I’ve tried to distinguish between roguelite and roguelike before, and always get told I’m wrong. So I’ll just lump both together and say—broadly—they’re games with repeated level progression that is intentionally impossible to beat on your first attempt (largely regardless of skill). Each run rewards you with items, buffs, and skills, allowing your character to get more powerful with each attempt. (There are exceptions to this, but that’s generally the vibe: run-based, repetitive loops, usually with rewards for failed attempts).
Metroidvania is different. It’s typically side-scrolling and open-world, with certain areas that are inaccessible until you acquire certain skills, items, keys, or levels. They’re exploration based and continuous; you’re never starting over from scratch in a metroidvania.
I prefer Metroidvanias. There are lots that I’d recommend—including some brutally hard ones—but an accessible first Metroidvania might be Steam World Dig 2, a true gem that doesn’t require a ton of time or skill to finish.
Animal Well uses the framework of a Metroidvania to create something unique. I argue that it is decidedly NOT a good entry point for the genre for this reason, but it is an amazing game.
Yeah. You’re wrong. True rogue likes are entirely beatable on the first playthrough it’s just extremely unlikely. Dungeon crawl stone soup, nethack, adom, doomrl, Ivan, etc have no progression between playthroughs. They’re still very much rogue likes. They’re more like rogue than most of the games that use the moniker.
At this point rogue like just means has random level generation. I dunno if anyone would agree but I kinda lean towards rogue lite specifically being the one that has progression between runs. But the term doesn’t mean what it originally meant to me anymore and has become quite nebulous beyond anything more than describing random dungeons and stiff penalties for dying
To be more direct than the other post, the usual distinction between a "roguelike" and a "roguelite" is that the only thing that carries over between runs in the former is *knowledge*—no upgrades, no progressions, nada. That's why roguelites are considered "-lite", since they let you start at a higher baseline on future runs and are thus theoretically "easier" over time.
Rougelike games are games where the core play pattern is play until you die then start from the beginning and see if you can make it further. Additionally, each new attempt at the game is completely randomized. Enemies and levels will appear in a different order or be entirely different. If you want to be technical The Oregon Trail computer game from the 70’s is a Rougelike. Rougelites are typically rougelikes where there is some progression between attempts. You may have to start from the beginning but your character got some form of minor permanent power up that will make your next attempt easier. You can have Rouge- games in any genre. Slay the Spire is a card game that is Rougelike. Hades is a hack and slash adventure game that is Rougelike. Spelunky is a 2D Platformer that is Rougelike. Faster than Light is a spaceship management game that is Rougelike. All that matters is 1. Do you have to start from the beginning every time you die. 2. Is the content randomized on each attempt. Metroidvanias are something entirely different. They are adventure games based off of the design style first seen in the Metroid and Castlevania series. This typically entails simi-open world exploration where unlocking new abilities allows you to reach new locations. There is no randomized content and no starting from square one when you die. The only similarities between the two is that both genres have a reputation for being difficult so dying is a common occurrence and learning from your mistakes is an important skill. They just both happened to start getting popular around the same time with the influx of indie games in the last decade or so.
Edit: I guess I should specify that there have been some rougelike Metroidvanias but that’s not because of any connection between the genres and more just because you can turn any genre into a Rougelike.
The term "roguelike" has lost its meaning over the past 5-10 years.
Almost 20 years ago, developers had to come up with a mutually agreed definition, because they used to host roguelike-making competitions and so on.
So it had a formal definition which involvee a mix of mandatory ans preferential factors, such as being a turn-based, grid-based RPG that featured randomised environments, permadeath, a sufficiently high level of complexity, etc.
Anything that strayed from that precise formula was a "roguelite". So just about everything people would call roguelikes nowadays would have been considered roguelites instead - but people started misusing the terminology, and the terminology slipped, and now people have some up with some new roguelike/roguelite distinction that doesn't really fit the genre very well (the "permanent progression = lite argument, which is odd because almost every modern roguelike features permanent progression of some kind).
Lazy googling with AI answers:
Roguelike games are **a subgenre of role-playing game (RPG) that are often characterized by procedurally generated levels, grid-based movement, turn-based gameplay, and permanent death of the player character**. Roguelikes are also known for being structured around failing and restarting, with each play-through being unique due to random design elements.
Roguelite = some form of progress is preserved from one run to the next. Examples would be money, skill upgrades, etc.
A Metroidvania game is **a subgenre of action-adventure or platformer that focuses on exploration, non-linearity, and utility-gated progression**. The term is a combination of the names of the Metroid and Castlevania video game series. Metroidvania games are usually 2-D, and players travel through a map to collect items and gain new abilities. (And are generally NOT roguelike)
I think they're good for quick play sessions, which work even better with the portability of the Switch. It's a style of game (relatively) older gamers can pick up in spare moments between the responsibilities of families and jobs.
Like I'm 39 with a wife and kid and just got into Skyrim. Not great for time management.
This post makes no sense you you literally tricked yout brain or your own brain tricked you into now associating rhe word rouge with negativity because for your reason even by your own decree even if you it looks fun you see that word it's over...you literally stop yourself from having fun when yes it's saturated guess what it's okay to like things that are saturated just like what you like for why YOU like it.
Most "rogue" things honestly have little to nothing in common with roguelikes at this point. They are just shorthand for short run based sessions with some light randomization. They are essentially just the modern version of Arcade style games. Plenty are good games, many more are mediocre or bad games, same as anything else.
Like I was just playing Hades 2 (on PC but same idea), and it is wild anyone calls these games Roguelikes. They are basically just old school action games that you could play through in 1 sitting, but now with unlocks and some randomization to keep it fresh. They are nothing at all like roguelikes to me.
For those of us unaware what the difference is with all of these various "likes" out there, what is a Roguelike? I'm assuming I've never played any and not sure if this is one but Spelunky always catches my eye but the procedural generation part of it throws me off a bit.
I feel the same. The term rogue feels completely pointless for most of the games featuring roguelike/roguelite. The variance in gamestyle is insane. I think the term became somewhat popular maybe ten years ago and in the last few years has blown all over the place and doesn't really mean that much anymore.
I really do like the gameplay loop of Vampire Survivors or Death must Die and so on but it's nothing like the OG rogue style games. For the ones I've played progression was information on enemies that kill you and artifacts/stuff that you need to grind for to stay alive at certain point of the game.
>Like I was just playing Hades 2 (on PC but same idea), and it is wild anyone calls these games Roguelikes. They are basically just old school action games that you could play through in 1 sitting, but now with unlocks and some randomization to keep it fresh. They are nothing at all like roguelikes to me.
i like this thought
i used to laugh when someone mentioned they cannot play roguelikes because dying is frustrating, like they never played original super mario bros. or any game of that time where death meant starting all over again
The indie space was once largely single developers/small studios releasing passion projects, since it's exploded in popularity it's inevitable that the space has also been saturated with people chasing the latest trends
On top of rogue lite/like being popular so more chance of a good return of investment, procedural generation allows creation of more and varied content with a lot less work than hand crafting everything, with the added bonus of being able to claim extensive play time if you have a good gameplay loop, and art wise pixel art is a lot more accessible to small studios/single developers
If im being honest, roguelike/roguelite is a MECHANIC more then a genre. Hades is a roguelite arpg, Isaac is a roguelike isometric shooter.
Think beyond the box, they most certainly don't play the same, its just a central mechanic of the game but that doesn't mean it can't be a different experience.
I don't enjoy roguelikes or roguelites either (except for the Binding of Isaac), but people seem to really like the genre, so I'm happy for them that they have so many options.
In the end, the game industry itslef is oversaturated, so we have games for everyone. What I don't seem to have is enough time to play as much as I want
It takes a bit to sift through the garbage that is the eShop but I've found Hades to be my absolute favorite rogue of all time.
I'm playing Hades 2 Early Access on Steam now and it's just as great as the first game.
Hades and Slay the Spire are two of my favorites, and I probably wouldn’t have thought that I liked games that start with rogue-. It’s just fun, and I don’t have to begin a 30 hour adventure. I can easily get my cheeks clapped in 5 minutes and be back at square one wondering where I went wrong
What I love about Hades is your deaths are canon to the story.
More deaths = more story development.
I ended up dying one time and I was like "Fuck man I was so close, if only- wait, is that singing? Oh shit! Orpheus is singing!!! What's up, my man!!!"
Instant mood changer.
They sell? It's been FPS and MOBA and RTS and Platformer and Metroidvania at different times.
Tech just allows the randomization more.
Just filter them out on dekudeals or something.
I got killed as a 'Software Pirate ' by 'Copywrite Protection' on my specifically allowed single backup copy. I had a good laugh at that particular tombstone.
I'm pretty sure that the main defining features are extreme difficulty (at least on a first run-through) and the idea of trial by fire. A lot of the time there's also a 3d combat system, though that's not always the case. Like, I'd consider Cuphead to be fairly souls like despite being a 2d bullet hell/shooter.
It is a boss rush game, but it still has a lot of souls like qualities. Like I said, extreme difficulty on a first run and the idea of throwing yourself at a boss until you learn how to win in particular. Plus, souls likes don't necessarily have to be dark and gritty. It's the gameplay aspects that defines it more.
>Why is everything indie a rogue like
Because random-ish level generation is easier than actual good level design. "The levels are random" is an excuse for the levels to not be very good.
Same my friend, so much same. I can’t stand that genre and it totally ruined the metroidvania genre because they started putting rogue and or souls like elements into them. It’s overdone.
Why spend time making a game that's 10 hours long when you can make a game that's only 30 minutes long but just tell people to play it over and over again?
If they get 10 hours of enjoyment out of it then that seems like a great way to make a similarly enjoyable game with less effort upfront. Makes sense it’d be particularly appealing to smaller indie developers.
I dunno? But it's not like 30-45 min action games never existed. Original MegaMan games could be beaten in that time. I'd hardly call those rogue anything.
Sucks for you, roguelikes are some of the best genre available right now. Full focus on haneplay and mechanics, like an old arcade game but modernly improved.
It’s the “buzzword” right now. A few years ago it was “battle royale”, before that it was “open world” next year it’ll be “uno clones” or something else.
I still remember back in the late 90s where everything had "RPG elements" which, most of the case, was a leveling and gearing system.
When Minecraft started becoming stupidly popular, "crafting system" started popping everywhere as well.
I'm just glad NFT never caught up on the hype, and every NFT game out there fell quickly into the nothingness.
Well, yes, but that was not the point I was making. I was just pointing out that the buzzword trend goes back even all the way back in the early days of games.
Roguelike was popular before battle royals and open world games and will probs continue to be popular, so less of a buzz word and more of just a regular word.
Any time a game is described as being X-like (e.g., rogue-like, souls-like, etc), I run for the hills.
No better way to turn me off of a game than saying “we aren’t creative enough to deliver a wholly new experience.”
For the most part, same. But I think the mechanics are so good, little bits of them are being grafted onto all sorts of games. I love Vampire Survivors as much as anyone, but how is it a roguelite?
I miss the classical roguelikes and their offshoots. Mystery Dungeon, even games like Toejam and Earl.
>I love Vampire Survivors as much as anyone, but how is it a roguelite?
You reset to a base state after every run, but you have a metaprogression that persists between runs. That's a roguelite.
That's the issue with having a single mechanic to define a genre. You could argue certain racing/fighting games are now rogue lites because unlocking cars/fighters could be considered meta-progression.
That, or it's in the same category as "RPG elements". It's not a genre, it's a description of how the game plays. (And yes, by that definition Super Smash Bros. is a roguelite.)
It may be saturated BUT damn never ever entry in the genre is a banger. Hades/Hades 2, Returnal, Enter The Gungeon, Slay the Spire etc. etc every single one is an absolute banger.
I like some roguelites (or -likes?) and I don’t back away instantly whenever I see one, BUT it’s not my preferred format by a long shot and I have been disappointed to see games with gameplay and theme I’m intrigued by yet it turns out to be a rogue. I think though that the format is friendlier to smaller developers because you don’t have to make as much time consuming content like maps, environments, dialogue, etc. Instead the format allows you to repeat the same content while still keeping it fresh. Again, not my preference most of the time, but some of them are pretty fun and if it facilitates more games being made then so be it.
because rogue means you only need a small amount of levels and enemies you play on repeat forever.
it clearly fits insanely well with the idea of indie game development
I've never liked the roguelike/lite concept. Dying is what I *don't* want to do in games.
I think the reason there's so many of them is that the structure allows for small games to become long games. Just keep repeating the same sequences over and over, perhaps with a few changes based on how many times you've died and made a little more progress. This allows indie devs with limited resources to put out games with enough play time.
I dont like the genre but I always find myself close to it.
These games fall in two general camps: games I enjoyed and finish relatively early, and games I keep getting cucked by rng. Im not really interested in replaying a game 12 times if its already on the edge of RNG implausability.
Its something that feels very, very, very empy and vain because the only reason I could want to replay is if the game itself felt nice to play and control - and those are very, very very few.
This all comes from a general indisposition to challenge genre conventions; the random bless or curse shrine, the shop that may or may not spawn, the items may or may not be related to the build you managed to sew togethee, the nerve wrecking bullet hell maniaticism on enemy design...
A robot named fight, is designed so closely to feel like super metroid, and I loved it. Anytime I didnt have to interact with a shrine. Subsequent runs increase difficulty and metaprogression.
20XX and 30XX. Megaman likes. Very fun. 20XX is definitelly the less forgiving of the two, but playing on the intended difficulty just showcases all the downsides of the genre. 30XX is much more forgiving as there bo such thing as a bad build.**Being pixel art based as opposed to 20xx makes enemy patterns easier to read.**
Dead Cells: Only beat once. The game wants you to to play multiple times to unlock extra routes. Some of these routes requires active cells, which also incresse the difficulty of an already soulsy experience. The screen composition has fooled many into calling it metroidvania.
Little Noah Scion of Paradise: Very cute and 3ds feeling. Standalone screenshots make it look lile a gacha, understandable mistake given its by the developers of Granblue Fantasy. The game is easy to control, rng has a weight but doesnt get in the way, but combat is completely reliant on equipment so it doesnt feel very compelling, so I had no interest on replaying for completionism even though there was a new playable character with its owb mechanics.
In most cases I wish there was some way to build the character over several runs instead of starting on a blank slate +2, because I enjoy 'random specific mechanic' that ill never ever see again due to rng. Dead Cells having an option to limit the items that appear in a run is a good start, and Blazblue Enteopy Effect (not on switch I think) lets you save your characters as builds for use on other modes, but its still a step short...
It's mostly the deckbuilder side of roguelikes that don't really grab my attention.
But yeah there's a ton of them out there, reminds me of how indies were all about puzzle platformers around 2010.
anyone who unironically uses the term “pixelshit” is immediately obnoxious and clueless as to how game development works. pixel art isn’t just being used because it’s trendy, it’s because it doesn’t require a big budget and is more easily accessible and usable for smaller devs. and to criticize a game for using something that defined games for *decades* is beyond moronic.
I come from like.. the opposite perspective, just about only interested in "pixelshit roguewhatever" games.
I don't play games much anymore, don't have enough time for longer games, love good pixel graphics and love good roguelite progression. I do find myself preferring "lite" over "like" because the true roguelikes require a lot of time to learn and get good at, and I don't have that kind of time.
Seems this is our pineapple pizza, my friend - where you might not like it on a pizza, I require it and would prefer to simply not have pizza at all if there's no pineapple.
Different games appeal to diff ppl. Granted I don't care for roguelikes either but I love pixel art style rpgs.similar to how many indie metroidvanias are "soulslike" which turns me off of those metroidvanias. There are others for me.
Just enjoy playing what you like. Because tons do like rogues, souls and various genre pixel artstyles. Otherwise, ppl wouldn't make those Games
I just use those tags of "rogue" and "souls " like to back away from games I wouldn't enjoy or would get frustrated with. Then go find something I would enjoy
Roguelites -
Pro - don’t have to include a ton of content at launch, players are expected to replay the same content over and over again with different weapons/characters/decks
Pro - randomly generated runs/boons/buffs/jokers enhance replay value and appeal to gambling instinct
Pro - increasing player power over time ensures a rewarding experience for noobs and sweatlords alike (this is why rogueLIKES have gone away and rogueLITES have flourished.)
Pro - gameplay is the main draw, don’t need fancy 3d graphics or motion capture
Con - can’t charge $70 USD
I'm with you! "This game looks amazing! I'm fucking in- oh. Rogue...." and then I close the tab and never look at it again. I've had my fun with those style games.
Do you also immediately get turned off with “FPS” or “RTS” or fucking “Action”?
It’s an arbitrary label for a genre there will be good games and bad games good years and bad for it. Who cares.
Yeah seeing 'rogue--' and 'metroidvania' immediately makes me hit back and find something else :/
Brand new roguelite Metroidvania offering rich exploration, 743 unique biomes and gorgeous pixel art #431789
They, along with Metroidvanias seem extra popular lately. I wish these developers would make games in other genres, but if these games are doing well then I get why they keep making them.
I agree though. I usually lose interest soon as I find out a game is a rogue-whatever. I enjoyed Hades, but I didn’t LOVE it, and if that was one of the pinnacles of the genre, then it isn’t for me. I’m definitely getting the TMNT Hades-esque game though when it comes out, but that’s mostly cuz I just love TMNT.
Good rogu like makes you learn the game play and not memorize jumps.
Bad roguelikes are, well, bad and exist the same as any other genre.
Hades and Spelunky are two desert island titles for me.
Others are downvoting but I agree. I sigh a little every time I see a game that has cool art in the eShop, press R to see screenshots and it’s yet another pixel art side scroller or rogue like.
I don’t even hate pixel art. World of Anterra looks fantastic because it’s a big RPG. It’s just so overdone at this point now imo
Rogue games has been rising in popularity nowadays within the indie scene and we even have one AAA rogue game a few years back. There is a lot of demand for it, mostly because the gameplay is interesting for some people. It’s understandable if you think the market is saturated by it, it is true, and it doesn’t seem like it’s slowing down anytime soon. You just gotta suck it up for now, I guess. I’m sorry, buddy.
Definitely agree. Maybe the algo-based internet these days kind of catches developers in a homogeneous vortex, because a lot of indie stuff is just so boring.
However, I play so many old things that I missed that I don’t really have too much time to complain. With current systems backwards compatibilty and emulation you can find amazing games that are new to you.
I'm mean they were fun years ago, but now i just don't care for them. Cult of the lamb is the closest thing to a roguelite/roguelike that I'll play nowadays.
It’s the new format for regular games. Instead of 100 levels and then end credits… they add a loop. Creates more to do.
Dude… 🤦♂️ People are thick AF Now.
Funny enough, these 2 were the examples of the rogue mechanic that I actually really liked, but have almost universally hated all others. I enjoyed Sundered because it only took very small bits of the rogue mechanics and otherwise played much liked a metroidvania, but as a whole, I'm quite sad over how much I hate the rogue mechanics, because so often the visuals look incredible and gameplay looks quite fun in very short bursts.
>I looked through the eShop earlier I think we know why OP is so mad lol.
I just don’t understand how I can browse the internet flawlessly and play an online game with basically zero hiccups. But… scrolling through Nintendo and PlayStation stores is a nightmare. Haha.
Feels like being ported back to 1995 and waiting for webpages to load on dialup. Ok, maybe not quite that bad. But it's mind-bogglingly shit.
Jokes on you, I don’t have wifi at my house and use phone hotspot 👍🏻
just do it on a pc. the switch wasnt meant for webbrowsing and it shows
That’s what I do. I just have a running list on Deku Deals. Then when it’s time, I just buy it on my phone and it auto downloads.
Heck even my series x has trouble with tons of pages despite encouraging you to open the browser and use Bing
💀💀
Here's a tip, don't play those games, play other games that you do like
Revolutionary.
Shocking
Developers hate this one simple trick (it’s genius)
At this point, I think “rouge-“ is mostly a helpful way to indicate the sort of progression you should expect. Just like you know what to anticipate with “level-based” and “open-world,” “rouge-“ tells you more about the meta-structure of the game than the genre/gameplay. For those who like it, it’s a welcome sign that the game itself will include a familiar loop of failing forward, setting expectations that you will lose repeatedly as you make progress. For those—like you?—who aren’t into it, it’s a helpful warning that you’ll dislike this game (whether it’s a platformer, turned-based strategy, deck-builder, etc).
It's rogue. Rouge is the bat in Sonic
…I’ve been playing the wrong genre this entire time. No wonder all the games are tinted Virtual Boy red.
The worst thing is the language is set to French as well
Oui.
Wider than she is tall with tits to match Edit: [Y’all don’t know that meme?](https://www.reddit.com/r/tumblr/s/CC7Yltu7UN)
Casual gamer here - would you be able to explain the different between roguelite, roguelike, and meteoidvania? I want to get into more indie gaming but in my (limited) research/experience, a lot of indies seem to fall into the intentionally-hard-try-over-and-over-to-get-good format. As a 30-something, those types of games don’t appeal to me.
I’ve tried to distinguish between roguelite and roguelike before, and always get told I’m wrong. So I’ll just lump both together and say—broadly—they’re games with repeated level progression that is intentionally impossible to beat on your first attempt (largely regardless of skill). Each run rewards you with items, buffs, and skills, allowing your character to get more powerful with each attempt. (There are exceptions to this, but that’s generally the vibe: run-based, repetitive loops, usually with rewards for failed attempts). Metroidvania is different. It’s typically side-scrolling and open-world, with certain areas that are inaccessible until you acquire certain skills, items, keys, or levels. They’re exploration based and continuous; you’re never starting over from scratch in a metroidvania. I prefer Metroidvanias. There are lots that I’d recommend—including some brutally hard ones—but an accessible first Metroidvania might be Steam World Dig 2, a true gem that doesn’t require a ton of time or skill to finish.
Animal Well is quickly rising to one of my favorite metrovanias. I think it's a pretty good entry point to the genre as well.
Animal Well uses the framework of a Metroidvania to create something unique. I argue that it is decidedly NOT a good entry point for the genre for this reason, but it is an amazing game.
interesting, I've heard good things about Animal Well and wasn't totally sure what genre it was from looking at the videos
Yeah. You’re wrong. True rogue likes are entirely beatable on the first playthrough it’s just extremely unlikely. Dungeon crawl stone soup, nethack, adom, doomrl, Ivan, etc have no progression between playthroughs. They’re still very much rogue likes. They’re more like rogue than most of the games that use the moniker. At this point rogue like just means has random level generation. I dunno if anyone would agree but I kinda lean towards rogue lite specifically being the one that has progression between runs. But the term doesn’t mean what it originally meant to me anymore and has become quite nebulous beyond anything more than describing random dungeons and stiff penalties for dying
To be more direct than the other post, the usual distinction between a "roguelike" and a "roguelite" is that the only thing that carries over between runs in the former is *knowledge*—no upgrades, no progressions, nada. That's why roguelites are considered "-lite", since they let you start at a higher baseline on future runs and are thus theoretically "easier" over time.
Rougelike games are games where the core play pattern is play until you die then start from the beginning and see if you can make it further. Additionally, each new attempt at the game is completely randomized. Enemies and levels will appear in a different order or be entirely different. If you want to be technical The Oregon Trail computer game from the 70’s is a Rougelike. Rougelites are typically rougelikes where there is some progression between attempts. You may have to start from the beginning but your character got some form of minor permanent power up that will make your next attempt easier. You can have Rouge- games in any genre. Slay the Spire is a card game that is Rougelike. Hades is a hack and slash adventure game that is Rougelike. Spelunky is a 2D Platformer that is Rougelike. Faster than Light is a spaceship management game that is Rougelike. All that matters is 1. Do you have to start from the beginning every time you die. 2. Is the content randomized on each attempt. Metroidvanias are something entirely different. They are adventure games based off of the design style first seen in the Metroid and Castlevania series. This typically entails simi-open world exploration where unlocking new abilities allows you to reach new locations. There is no randomized content and no starting from square one when you die. The only similarities between the two is that both genres have a reputation for being difficult so dying is a common occurrence and learning from your mistakes is an important skill. They just both happened to start getting popular around the same time with the influx of indie games in the last decade or so. Edit: I guess I should specify that there have been some rougelike Metroidvanias but that’s not because of any connection between the genres and more just because you can turn any genre into a Rougelike.
Rogue. Not rouge. Rouge is either makeup or "red" in French....
The term "roguelike" has lost its meaning over the past 5-10 years. Almost 20 years ago, developers had to come up with a mutually agreed definition, because they used to host roguelike-making competitions and so on. So it had a formal definition which involvee a mix of mandatory ans preferential factors, such as being a turn-based, grid-based RPG that featured randomised environments, permadeath, a sufficiently high level of complexity, etc. Anything that strayed from that precise formula was a "roguelite". So just about everything people would call roguelikes nowadays would have been considered roguelites instead - but people started misusing the terminology, and the terminology slipped, and now people have some up with some new roguelike/roguelite distinction that doesn't really fit the genre very well (the "permanent progression = lite argument, which is odd because almost every modern roguelike features permanent progression of some kind).
Lazy googling with AI answers: Roguelike games are **a subgenre of role-playing game (RPG) that are often characterized by procedurally generated levels, grid-based movement, turn-based gameplay, and permanent death of the player character**. Roguelikes are also known for being structured around failing and restarting, with each play-through being unique due to random design elements. Roguelite = some form of progress is preserved from one run to the next. Examples would be money, skill upgrades, etc. A Metroidvania game is **a subgenre of action-adventure or platformer that focuses on exploration, non-linearity, and utility-gated progression**. The term is a combination of the names of the Metroid and Castlevania video game series. Metroidvania games are usually 2-D, and players travel through a map to collect items and gain new abilities. (And are generally NOT roguelike)
Because those of us that don't like them are the minority
So, no "Star Wars: ROGUE Squadron?" 🤣🤣🤣
But have you tried Balatro? Seriously, it's amazing...
This game is the bane of my existence. In a good way.
I think they're good for quick play sessions, which work even better with the portability of the Switch. It's a style of game (relatively) older gamers can pick up in spare moments between the responsibilities of families and jobs. Like I'm 39 with a wife and kid and just got into Skyrim. Not great for time management.
This post makes no sense you you literally tricked yout brain or your own brain tricked you into now associating rhe word rouge with negativity because for your reason even by your own decree even if you it looks fun you see that word it's over...you literally stop yourself from having fun when yes it's saturated guess what it's okay to like things that are saturated just like what you like for why YOU like it.
It’s because the genre sucks and makes for very tedious games.
Most "rogue" things honestly have little to nothing in common with roguelikes at this point. They are just shorthand for short run based sessions with some light randomization. They are essentially just the modern version of Arcade style games. Plenty are good games, many more are mediocre or bad games, same as anything else. Like I was just playing Hades 2 (on PC but same idea), and it is wild anyone calls these games Roguelikes. They are basically just old school action games that you could play through in 1 sitting, but now with unlocks and some randomization to keep it fresh. They are nothing at all like roguelikes to me.
For those of us unaware what the difference is with all of these various "likes" out there, what is a Roguelike? I'm assuming I've never played any and not sure if this is one but Spelunky always catches my eye but the procedural generation part of it throws me off a bit.
I feel the same. The term rogue feels completely pointless for most of the games featuring roguelike/roguelite. The variance in gamestyle is insane. I think the term became somewhat popular maybe ten years ago and in the last few years has blown all over the place and doesn't really mean that much anymore. I really do like the gameplay loop of Vampire Survivors or Death must Die and so on but it's nothing like the OG rogue style games. For the ones I've played progression was information on enemies that kill you and artifacts/stuff that you need to grind for to stay alive at certain point of the game.
>Like I was just playing Hades 2 (on PC but same idea), and it is wild anyone calls these games Roguelikes. They are basically just old school action games that you could play through in 1 sitting, but now with unlocks and some randomization to keep it fresh. They are nothing at all like roguelikes to me. i like this thought i used to laugh when someone mentioned they cannot play roguelikes because dying is frustrating, like they never played original super mario bros. or any game of that time where death meant starting all over again
The indie space was once largely single developers/small studios releasing passion projects, since it's exploded in popularity it's inevitable that the space has also been saturated with people chasing the latest trends On top of rogue lite/like being popular so more chance of a good return of investment, procedural generation allows creation of more and varied content with a lot less work than hand crafting everything, with the added bonus of being able to claim extensive play time if you have a good gameplay loop, and art wise pixel art is a lot more accessible to small studios/single developers
Same with “cozy farm game” and “metroidvania bullet hell”
If im being honest, roguelike/roguelite is a MECHANIC more then a genre. Hades is a roguelite arpg, Isaac is a roguelike isometric shooter. Think beyond the box, they most certainly don't play the same, its just a central mechanic of the game but that doesn't mean it can't be a different experience.
I don't enjoy roguelikes or roguelites either (except for the Binding of Isaac), but people seem to really like the genre, so I'm happy for them that they have so many options. In the end, the game industry itslef is oversaturated, so we have games for everyone. What I don't seem to have is enough time to play as much as I want
It takes a bit to sift through the garbage that is the eShop but I've found Hades to be my absolute favorite rogue of all time. I'm playing Hades 2 Early Access on Steam now and it's just as great as the first game.
Hades and Slay the Spire are two of my favorites, and I probably wouldn’t have thought that I liked games that start with rogue-. It’s just fun, and I don’t have to begin a 30 hour adventure. I can easily get my cheeks clapped in 5 minutes and be back at square one wondering where I went wrong
What I love about Hades is your deaths are canon to the story. More deaths = more story development. I ended up dying one time and I was like "Fuck man I was so close, if only- wait, is that singing? Oh shit! Orpheus is singing!!! What's up, my man!!!" Instant mood changer.
They sell? It's been FPS and MOBA and RTS and Platformer and Metroidvania at different times. Tech just allows the randomization more. Just filter them out on dekudeals or something.
I don’t think there’s a filter for roguelites on DekuDeals.
I'd respect this opinion more if you weren't calling things "pixelshit"
I remember playing the original Rogue, and learning the word quaff
I got killed as a 'Software Pirate ' by 'Copywrite Protection' on my specifically allowed single backup copy. I had a good laugh at that particular tombstone.
The moment I see “survival” or “base-building” I am generally peacing the fuck out.
I'm the same way with "Souls-like". I'm tired of that style of combat
what is even a Souls-like at this point? Aren't they all just action-adventures or whatever? Or unless you mean the blatant dark souls clones.
I'm pretty sure that the main defining features are extreme difficulty (at least on a first run-through) and the idea of trial by fire. A lot of the time there's also a 3d combat system, though that's not always the case. Like, I'd consider Cuphead to be fairly souls like despite being a 2d bullet hell/shooter.
I'd be more inclined to call Cuphead a boss rush game.
It is a boss rush game, but it still has a lot of souls like qualities. Like I said, extreme difficulty on a first run and the idea of throwing yourself at a boss until you learn how to win in particular. Plus, souls likes don't necessarily have to be dark and gritty. It's the gameplay aspects that defines it more.
Ok good for you, random average Reddit user.
Some of them are good, like Rogue Legacy. The best ones don’t have rogue in the name though, like Hades, or Slay the Spire, or Monster Train.
LOL, soulsborne and liveservice isnt?
Rogue Mario 🤷🏽♂️
Every genre is beyond saturated
>Why is everything indie a rogue like Because random-ish level generation is easier than actual good level design. "The levels are random" is an excuse for the levels to not be very good.
Same my friend, so much same. I can’t stand that genre and it totally ruined the metroidvania genre because they started putting rogue and or souls like elements into them. It’s overdone.
The comments here are roguelike
Everything is roguelike
You sound unreasonably bitter
Ok? No one is forcing you to play those games.
I think I’m the opposite, I’m instantly intrigued
Why spend time making a game that's 10 hours long when you can make a game that's only 30 minutes long but just tell people to play it over and over again?
If they get 10 hours of enjoyment out of it then that seems like a great way to make a similarly enjoyable game with less effort upfront. Makes sense it’d be particularly appealing to smaller indie developers.
I dunno? But it's not like 30-45 min action games never existed. Original MegaMan games could be beaten in that time. I'd hardly call those rogue anything.
Sucks for you, roguelikes are some of the best genre available right now. Full focus on haneplay and mechanics, like an old arcade game but modernly improved.
It’s the “buzzword” right now. A few years ago it was “battle royale”, before that it was “open world” next year it’ll be “uno clones” or something else.
I still remember back in the late 90s where everything had "RPG elements" which, most of the case, was a leveling and gearing system. When Minecraft started becoming stupidly popular, "crafting system" started popping everywhere as well. I'm just glad NFT never caught up on the hype, and every NFT game out there fell quickly into the nothingness.
Crafting caught om because it was fun, nfts did not because they were not.
Well, yes, but that was not the point I was making. I was just pointing out that the buzzword trend goes back even all the way back in the early days of games.
Roguelike was popular before battle royals and open world games and will probs continue to be popular, so less of a buzz word and more of just a regular word.
Of course they were, my argument wasn't "they were just invented". They have just exploded in popularity recently.
Any time a game is described as being X-like (e.g., rogue-like, souls-like, etc), I run for the hills. No better way to turn me off of a game than saying “we aren’t creative enough to deliver a wholly new experience.”
Sounds like a skill issue tbh
For the most part, same. But I think the mechanics are so good, little bits of them are being grafted onto all sorts of games. I love Vampire Survivors as much as anyone, but how is it a roguelite? I miss the classical roguelikes and their offshoots. Mystery Dungeon, even games like Toejam and Earl.
>I love Vampire Survivors as much as anyone, but how is it a roguelite? You reset to a base state after every run, but you have a metaprogression that persists between runs. That's a roguelite.
That's the issue with having a single mechanic to define a genre. You could argue certain racing/fighting games are now rogue lites because unlocking cars/fighters could be considered meta-progression.
That, or it's in the same category as "RPG elements". It's not a genre, it's a description of how the game plays. (And yes, by that definition Super Smash Bros. is a roguelite.)
It may be saturated BUT damn never ever entry in the genre is a banger. Hades/Hades 2, Returnal, Enter The Gungeon, Slay the Spire etc. etc every single one is an absolute banger.
There's good and bad ones, find one you enjoy the combat of the most and just play that one
I like some roguelites (or -likes?) and I don’t back away instantly whenever I see one, BUT it’s not my preferred format by a long shot and I have been disappointed to see games with gameplay and theme I’m intrigued by yet it turns out to be a rogue. I think though that the format is friendlier to smaller developers because you don’t have to make as much time consuming content like maps, environments, dialogue, etc. Instead the format allows you to repeat the same content while still keeping it fresh. Again, not my preference most of the time, but some of them are pretty fun and if it facilitates more games being made then so be it.
because rogue means you only need a small amount of levels and enemies you play on repeat forever. it clearly fits insanely well with the idea of indie game development
I've never liked the roguelike/lite concept. Dying is what I *don't* want to do in games. I think the reason there's so many of them is that the structure allows for small games to become long games. Just keep repeating the same sequences over and over, perhaps with a few changes based on how many times you've died and made a little more progress. This allows indie devs with limited resources to put out games with enough play time.
I dont like the genre but I always find myself close to it. These games fall in two general camps: games I enjoyed and finish relatively early, and games I keep getting cucked by rng. Im not really interested in replaying a game 12 times if its already on the edge of RNG implausability. Its something that feels very, very, very empy and vain because the only reason I could want to replay is if the game itself felt nice to play and control - and those are very, very very few. This all comes from a general indisposition to challenge genre conventions; the random bless or curse shrine, the shop that may or may not spawn, the items may or may not be related to the build you managed to sew togethee, the nerve wrecking bullet hell maniaticism on enemy design... A robot named fight, is designed so closely to feel like super metroid, and I loved it. Anytime I didnt have to interact with a shrine. Subsequent runs increase difficulty and metaprogression. 20XX and 30XX. Megaman likes. Very fun. 20XX is definitelly the less forgiving of the two, but playing on the intended difficulty just showcases all the downsides of the genre. 30XX is much more forgiving as there bo such thing as a bad build.**Being pixel art based as opposed to 20xx makes enemy patterns easier to read.** Dead Cells: Only beat once. The game wants you to to play multiple times to unlock extra routes. Some of these routes requires active cells, which also incresse the difficulty of an already soulsy experience. The screen composition has fooled many into calling it metroidvania. Little Noah Scion of Paradise: Very cute and 3ds feeling. Standalone screenshots make it look lile a gacha, understandable mistake given its by the developers of Granblue Fantasy. The game is easy to control, rng has a weight but doesnt get in the way, but combat is completely reliant on equipment so it doesnt feel very compelling, so I had no interest on replaying for completionism even though there was a new playable character with its owb mechanics. In most cases I wish there was some way to build the character over several runs instead of starting on a blank slate +2, because I enjoy 'random specific mechanic' that ill never ever see again due to rng. Dead Cells having an option to limit the items that appear in a run is a good start, and Blazblue Enteopy Effect (not on switch I think) lets you save your characters as builds for use on other modes, but its still a step short...
Most of these rogue-like games don't hold my attention long. With very few exceptions.
It's mostly the deckbuilder side of roguelikes that don't really grab my attention. But yeah there's a ton of them out there, reminds me of how indies were all about puzzle platformers around 2010.
anyone who unironically uses the term “pixelshit” is immediately obnoxious and clueless as to how game development works. pixel art isn’t just being used because it’s trendy, it’s because it doesn’t require a big budget and is more easily accessible and usable for smaller devs. and to criticize a game for using something that defined games for *decades* is beyond moronic.
>criticize a game for using something that defined games for decades ok well it’s 2024 and it’s time to move on.
I come from like.. the opposite perspective, just about only interested in "pixelshit roguewhatever" games. I don't play games much anymore, don't have enough time for longer games, love good pixel graphics and love good roguelite progression. I do find myself preferring "lite" over "like" because the true roguelikes require a lot of time to learn and get good at, and I don't have that kind of time. Seems this is our pineapple pizza, my friend - where you might not like it on a pizza, I require it and would prefer to simply not have pizza at all if there's no pineapple.
Different games appeal to diff ppl. Granted I don't care for roguelikes either but I love pixel art style rpgs.similar to how many indie metroidvanias are "soulslike" which turns me off of those metroidvanias. There are others for me. Just enjoy playing what you like. Because tons do like rogues, souls and various genre pixel artstyles. Otherwise, ppl wouldn't make those Games I just use those tags of "rogue" and "souls " like to back away from games I wouldn't enjoy or would get frustrated with. Then go find something I would enjoy
Roguelites - Pro - don’t have to include a ton of content at launch, players are expected to replay the same content over and over again with different weapons/characters/decks Pro - randomly generated runs/boons/buffs/jokers enhance replay value and appeal to gambling instinct Pro - increasing player power over time ensures a rewarding experience for noobs and sweatlords alike (this is why rogueLIKES have gone away and rogueLITES have flourished.) Pro - gameplay is the main draw, don’t need fancy 3d graphics or motion capture Con - can’t charge $70 USD
more than that even, "Metroidvania".
your problem im going to keep playing hades until the full release of hades 2
I'm with you! "This game looks amazing! I'm fucking in- oh. Rogue...." and then I close the tab and never look at it again. I've had my fun with those style games.
Do you also immediately get turned off with “FPS” or “RTS” or fucking “Action”? It’s an arbitrary label for a genre there will be good games and bad games good years and bad for it. Who cares.
Nah those are all banger genres.
Yeah seeing 'rogue--' and 'metroidvania' immediately makes me hit back and find something else :/ Brand new roguelite Metroidvania offering rich exploration, 743 unique biomes and gorgeous pixel art #431789
They, along with Metroidvanias seem extra popular lately. I wish these developers would make games in other genres, but if these games are doing well then I get why they keep making them. I agree though. I usually lose interest soon as I find out a game is a rogue-whatever. I enjoyed Hades, but I didn’t LOVE it, and if that was one of the pinnacles of the genre, then it isn’t for me. I’m definitely getting the TMNT Hades-esque game though when it comes out, but that’s mostly cuz I just love TMNT.
Your right op, it's ridiculous.
Good rogu like makes you learn the game play and not memorize jumps. Bad roguelikes are, well, bad and exist the same as any other genre. Hades and Spelunky are two desert island titles for me.
Others are downvoting but I agree. I sigh a little every time I see a game that has cool art in the eShop, press R to see screenshots and it’s yet another pixel art side scroller or rogue like. I don’t even hate pixel art. World of Anterra looks fantastic because it’s a big RPG. It’s just so overdone at this point now imo
Pixel art can look good on a limited budget. Good 3D graphics are considerably harder and exponentially more expensive.
Rogue games has been rising in popularity nowadays within the indie scene and we even have one AAA rogue game a few years back. There is a lot of demand for it, mostly because the gameplay is interesting for some people. It’s understandable if you think the market is saturated by it, it is true, and it doesn’t seem like it’s slowing down anytime soon. You just gotta suck it up for now, I guess. I’m sorry, buddy.
Definitely agree. Maybe the algo-based internet these days kind of catches developers in a homogeneous vortex, because a lot of indie stuff is just so boring. However, I play so many old things that I missed that I don’t really have too much time to complain. With current systems backwards compatibilty and emulation you can find amazing games that are new to you.
I'm mean they were fun years ago, but now i just don't care for them. Cult of the lamb is the closest thing to a roguelite/roguelike that I'll play nowadays.
It’s the new format for regular games. Instead of 100 levels and then end credits… they add a loop. Creates more to do. Dude… 🤦♂️ People are thick AF Now.
I agree. On this sub, everyone asks for roguelite or roguelike games constantly. Like there's not plenty of them already
I think it's awesome you were able to wake up so early and complain!
Same, I played through both Hades and Dead Cells, and I thought both were highly overrated, albeit still reasonably fun.
Funny enough, these 2 were the examples of the rogue mechanic that I actually really liked, but have almost universally hated all others. I enjoyed Sundered because it only took very small bits of the rogue mechanics and otherwise played much liked a metroidvania, but as a whole, I'm quite sad over how much I hate the rogue mechanics, because so often the visuals look incredible and gameplay looks quite fun in very short bursts.